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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Martin <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Players on the list
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:04:36 +0100
I have a question for the GM-ers on the list. Recently one of my
players gained access (so far the only-one I hope) to the list and now
I'm afraid he's going to read all the stuff about hints for
adventures, all the nice ideas like the Predator-stats, and other
goodies (specially the Elfie-stuff which I'm trying to keep secret as
much as possible). Messages like "Spoiler" will work like a magnet on
him (won't it Rye }-| ) so I will have to change the modules to play
them.

Personally I hate this. Freedom of information is ok in my opinion
but I really don't know how to deal with this.

If you can help me out on this I would be really gratefull.

BTW : thanks Shadowdancer for the Phys-ad rules. I liked them and I
think my Phys-ad players will love them.

Thanks in advance,

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Players on the list
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 10:15:13 -0500
>>>>> "Martin" == Martin <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL> writes:

[...]

Martin> Personally I hate this. Freedom of information is ok in my opinion
Martin> but I really don't know how to deal with this.

Simple: don't use what's put on the list exactly they way it's put on the
list. Then, if the players use player knowledge when they shouldn't, they
screw themselves even worse than just losing karma for bad role-playing.
All you have to do is let them hang themselves. For example, Hayden's
comments about yautja armor being pretty light stuff, like 1/1, and this
particular person you mention read that article and mentions that Predators
don't have heavy armor. You now have permission to change that gratuitously
to something like 10/8 hardened or something.

And whoever you are that Martin's talking about, be careful, because it's
/real/ easy for someone in your position to screw themselves over. You have
been warned.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 3
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:46:41 +0600
Rat has a good point about not using things verbatim from the list. I've run
into this problem before. It was fun actually as the player was unwilling to
admit that he'd lurked on the list in an attempt to get some inside scoop on
a mission.

By all means, change things to better fit your campaign as well as to surprise
your players. Remember, things in this discussion group are far from
"official". Sorry guys but its true. Change things as you see fit.

-Jeff
Message no. 4
From: Todd Dresser <tcd@******.DIGEX.NET>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 12:08:57 -0500
On Wed, 14 Dec 1994, Martin wrote:

> I have a question for the GM-ers on the list. Recently one of my
> players gained access (so far the only-one I hope) to the list and now
> I'm afraid he's going to read all the stuff about hints for
> adventures, all the nice ideas like the Predator-stats, and other
> goodies (specially the Elfie-stuff which I'm trying to keep secret as
> much as possible). Messages like "Spoiler" will work like a magnet on
> him (won't it Rye }-| ) so I will have to change the modules to play
> them.
>
> Personally I hate this. Freedom of information is ok in my opinion
> but I really don't know how to deal with this.
>
> If you can help me out on this I would be really gratefull.
>
> BTW : thanks Shadowdancer for the Phys-ad rules. I liked them and I
> think my Phys-ad players will love them.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>
>
It sounds to me like your Players have to grow up and realize that it is
more fun to be surprized with cool stuff, than to be the all knowing all
powerful "god" character in a game.

~GRAY~

aka
Todd
Message no. 5
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 14:36:36 -0500
Players on the list is not such a bad thing. I have at least
three on here now. It gives them the advantage of knowing what the
hell's going on as far as rule interpretations go, and allows them input
into any campaign-relevant rulings.
As for scenario ideas, I don't uusually use any off the list
directly, as there aren't any that fit well into my campaign (it's real
weird), so I'm set. No worries.

Marc
Message no. 6
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 14:06:32 -0700
On Wed, 14 Dec 1994, Martin wrote:

> I have a question for the GM-ers on the list. Recently one of my
> players gained access (so far the only-one I hope) to the list and now
> I'm afraid he's going to read all the stuff about hints for
> adventures, all the nice ideas like the Predator-stats, and other
> goodies (specially the Elfie-stuff which I'm trying to keep secret as
> much as possible). Messages like "Spoiler" will work like a magnet on
> him (won't it Rye }-| ) so I will have to change the modules to play
> them.
Cheaters never prosper. Make him suffer for his "glance into the
unknown". Nobody should get an upper hand. And if he starts using this
information to his advantage, begin making all attacks from creatures or
traps more fatal (i.e. his parrys in melee miss by 4 or 5 successes and
he's hit by the troll with the combat axe. Ouch. Or each mage you
encounter decides he's the best target for the "slay (race)" spell.
Etc..Ect...) Have Fate work against him until he plays fair.

>
> Personally I hate this. Freedom of information is ok in my opinion
> but I really don't know how to deal with this.
>
> If you can help me out on this I would be really gratefull.
>
> BTW : thanks Shadowdancer for the Phys-ad rules. I liked them and I
> think my Phys-ad players will love them.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>
>
We put the spoiler alerts in so people won't read the messages. Now
thatour group has done HB, I can go back and read all the damn spoilers.

Mike, TGC
Message no. 7
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 19:48:37 -0500
On Wed, 14 Dec 1994, Martin wrote:

> I have a question for the GM-ers on the list. Recently one of my
> players gained access (so far the only-one I hope) to the list and now
> I'm afraid he's going to read all the stuff . . .

Well, I'd like to say that if your player should be able to
differentiate between player knowledge and character knowledge...but,
that's hard for anybody to do, even the best of us.
One possibility I can see for you is to keep throwing things at
'em that (to use the Predator example) look and smell like a Predator, but
are actually completely different -- some old, withered mage with a
malfunctioning combination of disguise and invisibility, for example.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "Love thy neighbor as thyself, but choose your neighborhood." |
| -Louise Beal |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 8
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 09:46:43 +0100
Martin writes:
> I have a question for the GM-ers on the list. Recently one of my
> players gained access (so far the only-one I hope) to the list and now
> I'm afraid he's going to read all the stuff about hints for
> adventures, all the nice ideas like the Predator-stats, and other
> goodies (specially the Elfie-stuff which I'm trying to keep secret as
> much as possible). Messages like "Spoiler" will work like a magnet on
> him (won't it Rye }-| ) so I will have to change the modules to play
> them.
>
> Personally I hate this. Freedom of information is ok in my opinion
> but I really don't know how to deal with this.
>
> If you can help me out on this I would be really gratefull.
Hmmm, isn't that the fun thing again. If he's the type who has to win
by all cost (spoiling the fun and figuring it out by himself) let him.
If he's not a good actor, you will probably know, what he knows before
and what information ge got by himselft. So, don't give him karma for
the peeking-stuff, or better don't give him karma at all, if you
recognize some of the list-ideas suddenly popping from his mind.
I know this type of person who always has to win and you should ask
yourself two questions:
Do you like him so much to make the game fun even for him?
If the answer is yes, see above.
If the answer is no, why bother, just expell him.

Just my thoughts
bye,
Stefan
Message no. 9
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 17:53:14 +0100
Thanks for all the tips guys, I really appriciate it. I also though
of another way to "blackmail" him: I won't subscribe on the Mythus-
list (he's a Mythus GM) and read all the stuff and he stays away from
the secret info here.

Thanks again,

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 19:11:02 +0100
> Well, I'd like to say that if your player should be able to
>differentiate between player knowledge and character knowledge...but,
>that's hard for anybody to do, even the best of us.

But if you're the GM, you can always step in and say "where did your
character learn that?" If the player can come up with a good explanation,
let him use the knowledge. If he can't, overrule the actions he takes based
on the knowledge the player obtained from this (or another) mailing list.


Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au !a>?
Windows -- the | w+(+++)y v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po)
largest virus | Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h!
ever written | f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 11
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 22:45:51 -0500
On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, Martin Steffens wrote:

> Thanks for all the tips guys, I really appriciate it. I also though
> of another way to "blackmail" him: I won't subscribe on the Mythus-
> list (he's a Mythus GM) and read all the stuff and he stays away from
> the secret info here.
>

---Warning, this is going off topic---

Someone actually PLAYS Mythus? I bought it, read it, tried to decipher
it... but when the charts and text don't match for some stuff (armor if I
remember right) and it took me 5 HOURS to create a character. (BTW, I am
an experience gamer, I was doing this after skimming both books once...)
And I still never really understood the system. Oh well. Is it better
once you start??


Shadow
Message no. 12
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 23:03:31 -0500
What the hell is Mythus????
I never heard of it. And I've been to a couple large gaming conventions here
in the States. Including the second largest con in the East after Gencon.
Tom Craig
Message no. 13
From: THEY ONLY WIN IF WE LET THEM <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 23:56:30 -0500
Mythus, I think, was a game created by G. Gygax after he
left T$R. In addition, he created Dangerous Journeys.
I've only glanced at the books, I never bought them ot
oops or truely read them.

Michael
Message no. 14
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 00:48:39 -0500
I knew about Dangerous Journeys, I had never heard about Mythus.
Vewy, Vewy Intewesting. <grin>
Tom
PS. it's about 1:00am, as I write this.
Message no. 15
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***********.HACKS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 12:39:13 -0700
On Sat, 17 Dec 1994, THEY ONLY WIN IF WE LET THEM wrote:

> Mythus, I think, was a game created by G. Gygax after he
> left T$R. In addition, he created Dangerous Journeys.
> I've only glanced at the books, I never bought them ot
> oops or truely read them.
>
> Michael
>
Just to prove the saying:
-- "One man does not a gaming system make, even if you ARE Gary Gygax."

Mike, TGC

P.S> I am still here, thank you. U of A won't let me go until Dec. 22.
Message no. 16
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 14:38:55 -0700
> What the hell is Mythus????
> I never heard of it. And I've been to a couple large gaming conventions here
> in the States. Including the second largest con in the East after Gencon.

It's a failed attempt at a universal RPG, complete with its own quarterly
magazine and fan club, created by Gary Gygax and GDW (I think). Problem
is, it's so damn complicated you almost have to use calculus to play the
game. The reason you haven't heard of it is because when it first came
out (about 1&1/2 - 2 yrs. ago) it was widely publicized, but sales
plateaued at about fifty copies of the game, so I think GDW discontinued it.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John, John, the piper's son, stole a .sig and away he run...
Message no. 17
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 23:33:20 -0500
> out (about 1&1/2 - 2 yrs. ago) it was widely publicized, but sales
> plateaued at about fifty copies of the game, so I think GDW discontinued it.

50 copies? I wonder if it will be a collector's item in years to come....
Now if I can only find the blasted thing..... ;)


Matt H.
Message no. 18
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 10:47:12 +0100
On Sat, 17 Dec Malcalypse The Younger wrote:
>
> ---Warning, this is going off topic---
>
> Someone actually PLAYS Mythus? I bought it, read it, tried to decipher
> it... but when the charts and text don't match for some stuff (armor if I
> remember right) and it took me 5 HOURS to create a character. (BTW, I am
> an experience gamer, I was doing this after skimming both books once...)
> And I still never really understood the system. Oh well. Is it better
> once you start??
>
Yep, we played it twice and spend a whole evening and night only
creating characters. It's slightly better now as or GM kept our
interaction with the rules to a minimum (he is one hell of a paranoid
bugger keeping even the rules from the players :-) ).
After that I found the whole set in my game store for 10 guilders a
piece (about 5 dollars) and bought it also. My conclusion after about
150 pages (I can't bring myself to read on): Absolute Hell, the game
is unplayable and to complicated for the level of realism
incorporated (the world-system is nice, however).
Think again when you complain about VR, try this for a change!
Conclusion: No, it probably won't get easier.

Greetings,

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>

BTW: Rye: don't worry. I stopped reading at page 150 of the base book.






>
> Shadow
>
Message no. 19
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 10:55:01 +0100
On Sun, 18 Dec John IV wrote:

> It's a failed attempt at a universal RPG, complete with its own quarterly
> magazine and fan club, created by Gary Gygax and GDW (I think). Problem
> is, it's so damn complicated you almost have to use calculus to play the
> game. The reason you haven't heard of it is because when it first came
> out (about 1&1/2 - 2 yrs. ago) it was widely publicized, but sales
> plateaued at about fifty copies of the game, so I think GDW discontinued it.

GDW stopped it because they were forced to. T$R sued Gary Gygax over
Mythus and the Dangerous Journeys concept, because they reasoned Gary
wrote it while he was CEO of T$R. T$R won the lawsuit, made a deal
with Gary and now own the game. As far as I know a second edition is
being written (must be easier :-) )

If anyone wants to know the whole story behind it, send me a mail and
I will post it to you (It reads like a Soap-episode :-) )

Greetings,

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>
Message no. 20
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 07:45:21 -0500
Gary's wife strikes again!
Tom Craig
Message no. 21
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Players on the list
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 21:42:50 -0500
On Mon, 19 Dec 1994, Martin Steffens wrote:

> Yep, we played it twice and spend a whole evening and night only
> creating characters. It's slightly better now as or GM kept our
> interaction with the rules to a minimum (he is one hell of a paranoid
> bugger keeping even the rules from the players :-) ).
> After that I found the whole set in my game store for 10 guilders a
> piece (about 5 dollars) and bought it also. My conclusion after about
> 150 pages (I can't bring myself to read on): Absolute Hell, the game
> is unplayable and to complicated for the level of realism
> incorporated (the world-system is nice, however).
> Think again when you complain about VR, try this for a change!
> Conclusion: No, it probably won't get easier.
>

Ok, Whew. I thought it was just me.. Keeping rules interaction at a
minimum is probably a Very Good Idea (tm). Anyway, the idea is noble,
to create a realistic RPG, but Gygax just couldn't cut it I guess. Oh
well.

Shadow
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Players on the List
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 06:59:40 -0600
Dvixen wrote:
|
| Hrm. One of my players wants on the list. Should I tell him how? Or tell
| him the list is defunct?? <grin>

Oh, go ahead and tell him. Look at all the fun Tinner has had with
Bull spoiler space :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 23
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Players on the List
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:27:04 +0000
> Dvixen wrote:
> |
> | Hrm. One of my players wants on the list. Should I tell him how? Or tell
> | him the list is defunct?? <grin>
>
> Oh, go ahead and tell him. Look at all the fun Tinner has had with
> Bull spoiler space :)

Well frankly you can't really stop him but I don't see anything wrong
with it .. I am both a GM and a Player and well I don't mind and the
other game master does not mind either ... Just ask him not to read
the spoiler messages.

/Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .................... http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Players on the List
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:23:59 -0700
Stefan wrote:
>
> > Dvixen wrote:
> > |
> > | Hrm. One of my players wants on the list. Should I tell him how?
> Or tell
> > | him the list is defunct?? <grin>
> >
> > Oh, go ahead and tell him. Look at all the fun Tinner has had with
> > Bull spoiler space :)

Very true.

> Well frankly you can't really stop him but I don't see anything wrong
> with it .. I am both a GM and a Player and well I don't mind and the
> other game master does not mind either ... Just ask him not to read
> the spoiler messages.

Shyeah, right. This is the ultimate munchie I am talking about. Given
the chance, he'd read anything spoilers.

Anyone care to start up an anti munchie thread just as he joins? I want
this fully in swing when he signs on. :)

How about everyone's gripes about characters with the same personaility,
no matter their back ground? Zwoot!

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
Message no. 25
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Players on the List
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:25:38 -0600
Dvixen wrote:
|
| > Well frankly you can't really stop him but I don't see anything wrong
| > with it .. I am both a GM and a Player and well I don't mind and the
| > other game master does not mind either ... Just ask him not to read
| > the spoiler messages.
|
| Shyeah, right. This is the ultimate munchie I am talking about. Given
| the chance, he'd read anything spoilers.
|
| Anyone care to start up an anti munchie thread just as he joins? I want
| this fully in swing when he signs on. :)
|
| How about everyone's gripes about characters with the same personaility,
| no matter their back ground? Zwoot!

Say "when". :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Further Reading

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.