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Message no. 1
From: Bill Thompson <BillT@*********.COM>
Subject: Player SOTA
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:58:58 -0800
On 12/10/98 Bryan Covington wrote in "Random Encounters" thread:

> I have the problem of having several players who have
> decided to dedicate a wing to the Fasa building and own every book out
> there, so consequently it's impossible to run a published adventure unless
> it's hot off the shelves and I forbid them to buy it. And its equally tough
> to modify something to the point that it isn't recognizable as something
> published (If I want to go to that much trouble I'll just make it up
> myself).

Ok, so this reminded me of something I've always wanted to bring up here. When
you have a player who buys all of the source books and reads the novels, you
always have to watch them to make sure they are separating player knowledge
from character knowledge (at least I do). I've been thinking about applying
the SOTA rules to allow the character to know what the player does. The karma
and nuyen spent on SOTA would reflect the game time the character spends
gathering information and listening to rumors. For example, the character
would know what the conditions are inside the Chicago CZ before going there,
because the player read the Bug City sourcebook. The player would be able to
use the info in the player sections of the sourcebooks and the novels without
having to check with contacts. Of course, the GM sections of sourcebooks and
modules would still be forbidden knowledge. This would also be limited to what
the PLAYER knows, so no excuses about "I bought the SOTA so my character would
know even if I don't"

What do you think?

Bill Thompson - Mahagonny.com
On the Internet there are no independent agents.
Message no. 2
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:08:04 +0100
And so it came to happen that Bill Thompson wrote:

<snip>
> Ok, so this reminded me of something I've always wanted to bring up here. When
> you have a player who buys all of the source books and reads the novels, you
> always have to watch them to make sure they are separating player knowledge
> from character knowledge (at least I do). I've been thinking about applying
> the SOTA rules to allow the character to know what the player does. The karma
> and nuyen spent on SOTA would reflect the game time the character spends
> gathering information and listening to rumors. For example, the character
> would know what the conditions are inside the Chicago CZ before going there,
> because the player read the Bug City sourcebook. The player would be able to
> use the info in the player sections of the sourcebooks and the novels without
> having to check with contacts. Of course, the GM sections of sourcebooks and
> modules would still be forbidden knowledge. This would also be limited to what
> the PLAYER knows, so no excuses about "I bought the SOTA so my character would
> know even if I don't"
>
> What do you think?

It's tricky with those things, those lamentations of "But MY Character
would have known, hey, HE lives there actually!" are pretty known to me
(and <g> I have tried those too). It is a twosided sword, even if you
allow the player to read the whole playerssection from one specific
book, you can't expect the player to know everything that stands inside
this book. And every person has different points of view what he deems
important, so expect to have those good old lamentations to arise new.
And they have full rights for this IMO, as the players actually AREN'T
the characters that live there (more or less) their whole lives. But
sometimes those players overstress this such as "My Character never
forgets his flashlight when he goes into the sewers, I must have
overlooked it..." Same for the sourcebooks, sometimes this will happen.
In the groups I played we handled it pretty fairly as everyone was
allowed to read what he likes except the parts that the GM wanted to
use. Of course this did some strain to the Players, but as we wanted to
have fun while gaming, none so far has read the sourcematerial before
the adventure or the Run took actually place. It is kind of discipline,
yes, but it is the best way to use it (IMO). And nobody in our group has
problems with the difference in PC knowledge and Player knowledge.
Heck in one group my Rigger "Fat Larry" died after he has shot a very
heavy barrage of lead into a vampire in mist form. That was although I
personally knew that vampires would not be affected, but Larry did not.
After this Barrage the turret started to smoke and mist from that turret
started to descend into my beloved "Blues Shoes" Van. I knew that this
probably was the vampire. Larry thought that the Cannon probably has a
leak in the cooling mechanism (it was a real BIG barrage you know).
After he was kicked a few times through the van he was bitten to death
by the vampire, but just before he died he peed himself (Larry that was)
just to be complete now.
Alright after this small example, my advise. Trust your players and
there abilities, that is all it takes. And, of course, change some of
the important in your sourcebook so that the players will not recognise
what actually had hit them!
;o)

--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...
Message no. 3
From: Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:17:21 EST
>
>Ok, so this reminded me of something I've always wanted to bring up
here. When
>you have a player who buys all of the source books and reads the
novels, you
>always have to watch them to make sure they are separating player
knowledge
>from character knowledge (at least I do). I've been thinking about
applying
>the SOTA rules to allow the character to know what the player does. The
karma
>and nuyen spent on SOTA would reflect the game time the character
spends
>gathering information and listening to rumors. For example, the
character
>would know what the conditions are inside the Chicago CZ before going
there,
>because the player read the Bug City sourcebook. The player would be
able to
>use the info in the player sections of the sourcebooks and the novels
without
>having to check with contacts. Of course, the GM sections of
sourcebooks and
>modules would still be forbidden knowledge. This would also be limited
to what
>the PLAYER knows, so no excuses about "I bought the SOTA so my
character would
>know even if I don't"
>
>What do you think?

I happen to be a player who has a large number of the source books. I
conquer the problem of knowing to much by first forming a very indepth
history for my character. Then based on the history of my character, I
ask myself "Would my character be expected to know this?" The key is to
be honest to yourself.

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Message no. 4
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:01:28 -0500
> I happen to be a player who has a large number of the source books. I
> conquer the problem of knowing to much by first forming a very indepth
> history for my character. Then based on the history of my character, I
> ask myself "Would my character be expected to know this?" The key is to
> be honest to yourself.
>
This is true. It's REALLY hard sometimes but at the same
time you really get the roleplaying buzz when you are doing something your
character would do based on his knowledge that you know as a player know to
be wrong. I'm always wondering when I'm playing if I'm doing something the
way my PC would do it or the way I (the player) would. In cases like this
there is no question and it gives me a nifty feeling knowing I am completely
in character.
Message no. 5
From: Grifter13 <sids@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:49:11 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: Player SOTA


>> I happen to be a player who has a large number of the source books. I
>> conquer the problem of knowing to much by first forming a very indepth
>> history for my character. Then based on the history of my character, I
>> ask myself "Would my character be expected to know this?" The key is
to
>> be honest to yourself.
>>
> This is true. It's REALLY hard sometimes but at the same
>time you really get the roleplaying buzz when you are doing something your
>character would do based on his knowledge that you know as a player know to
>be wrong. I'm always wondering when I'm playing if I'm doing something the
>way my PC would do it or the way I (the player) would. In cases like this
>there is no question and it gives me a nifty feeling knowing I am
completely
>in character.
>
I don't have many of the source books but all of the ones I do have are
written as if they were on the matrix (the shadowland BBS I think). Now as
far as I see it, if a character has access to the matrix and the time,
finding them should not be to hard. Just take trying to find a warez sight
for example. A search engine will almost never lead you to a real warez
sight but if you follow the links through all of the never ending BS sights
you'll eventually find the real thing. So I say if the character has the
time and inclination to do it then I have no problem with it. Of course if
the character has the data haven skill then finding the sights is no problem
cause he allready knows where they are. The only problem I can see is
players trying to use information that there character would never bother
trying to learn.
Message no. 6
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:29:44 -0600
----------
> From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
>
> > I happen to be a player who has a large number of the source books. I
> > conquer the problem of knowing to much by first forming a very indepth
> > history for my character. Then based on the history of my character,
I
> > ask myself "Would my character be expected to know this?" The key is
to
> > be honest to yourself.
> >
> This is true. It's REALLY hard sometimes but at the same
> time you really get the roleplaying buzz when you are doing something
your
> character would do based on his knowledge that you know as a player know
to
> be wrong. I'm always wondering when I'm playing if I'm doing something
the
> way my PC would do it or the way I (the player) would. In cases like
this
> there is no question and it gives me a nifty feeling knowing I am
completely
> in character.

I've never really had this problem. I've found that, as I get more and
more into role-playing, I forget things my character shouldn't know, and
just lose myself in whoever I am at the time (which can get very weird...
and scary... when I'm playing a female...)
Message no. 7
From: Bill Thompson <BillT@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:41:52 -0800
On 12/11/98 Grifter13 wrote:
>
> I don't have many of the source books but all of the ones I do have are
> written as if they were on the matrix (the shadowland BBS I think). Now as
> far as I see it, if a character has access to the matrix and the time,
> finding them should not be to hard. Just take trying to find a warez sight
> for example. A search engine will almost never lead you to a real warez
> sight but if you follow the links through all of the never ending BS sights
> you'll eventually find the real thing. So I say if the character has the
> time and inclination to do it then I have no problem with it. Of course if
> the character has the data haven skill then finding the sights is no problem
> cause he allready knows where they are. The only problem I can see is
> players trying to use information that there character would never bother
> trying to learn.

Your example actually clarifies the malformed idea that prompted my original
post. If the character is going to keep up with current events, what type of
game mechanics would you use to reflect the time and effort needed to search
out that info?

Maybe I'm a Bastard GM from Hell, but I just can not accept blanket statements
like "I'm always checking news broadcasts" or "everytime I leave the house
I
wear a ski-mask". I really want my players to be specific about what they do.
So, if their character is going to know about the ShadowLand posts from the
sourcebooks, they need to pay for it in some way. Projects cost time and
money, skills cost Karma, what can be used for knowledge?

Bill Thompson - Mahagonny.com
On the Internet there are no independent agents.
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:47:41 -0600
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:41:52 -0800 Bill Thompson <BillT@*********.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>Your example actually clarifies the malformed idea that prompted my
original
>post. If the character is going to keep up with current events, what
type of
>game mechanics would you use to reflect the time and effort needed to
search
>out that info?
>
>Maybe I'm a Bastard GM from Hell, but I just can not accept blanket
statements
>like "I'm always checking news broadcasts" or "everytime I leave the
house I
>wear a ski-mask". I really want my players to be specific about what
they do.
>So, if their character is going to know about the ShadowLand posts from
the
>sourcebooks, they need to pay for it in some way. Projects cost time and
>money, skills cost Karma, what can be used for knowledge?

Well, one thing is to let the characters program their trid set (If they
have one and I deem that it is sophisticated enough) to collect news
broadcasts on certain topics or subscribe to certain ... I don't mailing
lists (GunLoverRN?), magazines, etc ... Another thing is one of my
characters actually has stock in a few megacorps (gotta love those
quarterly reports!:)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:24:48 -0500
> >Maybe I'm a Bastard GM from Hell, but I just can not accept blanket
> statements
> >like "I'm always checking news broadcasts" or "everytime I leave
the
> house I
> >wear a ski-mask". I really want my players to be specific about what
> they do.
>
I am of this school too and generally give them good solid
warning about it.

"What are you taking with you? Bear in mind, if you don't
say it, you don't have it."
Message no. 10
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:12:42 -0500
At 05:24 PM 12/14/98 -0500, Bryan Covington wrote:
>> >Maybe I'm a Bastard GM from Hell, but I just can not accept blanket
>> statements
>> >like "I'm always checking news broadcasts" or "everytime I
leave the
>> house I
>> >wear a ski-mask". I really want my players to be specific about what
>> they do.
>>
> I am of this school too and generally give them good solid
>warning about it.
>
> "What are you taking with you? Bear in mind, if you don't
>say it, you don't have it."

While I can sympathize with this to a degree, beyond a certain point it
drives me nuts. My character is far better at his profession than I am; he
knows what magazines he needs to read to stay current, which news reports
he needs to pay attention to, and what pieces of equipment he needs to
carry and how often they have to be upgraded. I don't, and even if I did I
wouldn't want to use my valuable role-playing time keeping track of such
things. I know a guy who, when he GMs, wants everyone to keep track of
every last scrap of material and money on their person, and if they don't
have a listing of items to some arbitrarily high degree of precision he
decides upon at the moment, they automatically have the wrong thing. (For
instance, one time in a fantasy game someone bought oil for their lamp and
wrote it down "oil." Because they didn't write down "lamp oil" he
ruled
that it wasn't, and couldn't be used in the lamp.) That's bullshit of the
Nth degree, to my mind.

Invariably in my experience, when a player is left to his own devices to
equip his character, he either misses something vital because he's not an
expert in planning a mission/expedition, or he overcompensates and winds up
lugging along five tons of useless junk. I'm here to roleplay an
action/adventure character, dammit, not be a quartermaster.


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 11
From: Sean Matheis <sean@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:13:29 -0800
> wrote it down "oil." Because they didn't write down "lamp oil"
he ruled
> that it wasn't, and couldn't be used in the lamp.) That's bullshit of the
> Nth degree, to my mind.

I dont' mind this, if its done once, to prove a point, that being you
as a player need to pay a certain amount of attention to the detail.
If after this you tell your GM "When I go <bark>, I really mean
<ribbit>"
then you shouldn't have a problem, either as a player or GM. (For example,
in our Twilight Brigade games, when we go out in the field on a run,
our "default" ammo is gel-rounds. We don't tell Max 'I"m packing gel this
run' - this is the assumed ammo. Just as some players will default to
hardball.)

> Invariably in my experience, when a player is left to his own devices to
> equip his character, he either misses something vital because he's not an
> expert in planning a mission/expedition, or he overcompensates and winds up
> lugging along five tons of useless junk. I'm here to roleplay an
> action/adventure character, dammit, not be a quartermaster.

See above. I'm not beyond hitting a character once for this. Part of the
fun of these games (SR in particular) is the mix of paranoia with planning.
Message no. 12
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:58:35 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:41 PM 12/14/98 -0800, Bill wrote:
>Maybe I'm a Bastard GM from Hell, but I just can not accept blanket
statements
>like "I'm always checking news broadcasts" or "everytime I leave the
house I
>wear a ski-mask". I really want my players to be specific about what
they do.
>So, if their character is going to know about the ShadowLand posts
from the
>sourcebooks, they need to pay for it in some way. Projects cost time
and
>money, skills cost Karma, what can be used for knowledge?

As long as you're playing third edition, there's something quite
simple: The "Sixth World Knowledge" knowledge skills.

BBB3, p.90 (my own emphasis added):
"Sixth World Knowledge
This category covers the unique nature of the world now that
magic has returned to it. For practical purposes, this skill covers
THE BASE OF KNOWLEDGE FOUND WITHIN VARIOUS SHADOWRUN SOURCEBOOKS."

If your players want their characters to know the type of information
that would be in a sourcebook, make them spend the chargen or karma
points to buy the appropriate Sixth World Knowledge skill. Then if the
character is trying to remember something specific that the player has
looked up in a book, then have the character roll a standard knowledge
skill test. (t# based on the obscurity of the fact, # of successes
indicating the knowledge gained.)


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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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Message no. 13
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:28:37 -0500
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:47:41 -0600 "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM> writes:

>Well, one thing is to let the characters program their trid set (If
>they have one and I deem that it is sophisticated enough) to collect
>news broadcasts on certain topics or subscribe to certain ... I don't
>mailing lists (GunLoverRN?), magazines, etc ... Another thing is one
>of my characters actually has stock in a few megacorps (gotta love
>those quarterly reports!:)

I sunscribe to many lists and have access to a lot of info coming in from
various sources about various topics and sometimes I do not read them!
Even subscribers sometimes will over look things, it is human nature. How
many people on this list actually read 100% of the mail?

I know I do not, but sometimes thinkI should

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

() () () () () <() <()> ()> ()
.I. \|. \|/ // X \ | < |
<|>
/\ >\ /< >\ /< >\ /< > /<

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Message no. 14
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:03:32 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Sean Martinez wrote:

>
> I sunscribe to many lists and have access to a lot of info coming in from
> various sources about various topics and sometimes I do not read them!
> Even subscribers sometimes will over look things, it is human nature. How
> many people on this list actually read 100% of the mail?
>

A few of us do. Of course, we hate to admit it when spend that much time
reading this stuff and still don't always understand it all (optics . . .
solar sails . . . sometimes I feel like I've stumbled into a graduate
physics lab!)

- Kama
Message no. 15
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:42:45 -0600
----------
> From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
>
> A few of us do. Of course, we hate to admit it when spend that much time
> reading this stuff and still don't always understand it all (optics . .
Message no. 16
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:03:52 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Nexx wrote:

> ----------
> > From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
> >
> > A few of us do. Of course, we hate to admit it when spend that much time
> > reading this stuff and still don't always understand it all (optics . .
>

Errrr . . . This is another one of those messages I don't understand . . .
Did you forget something?

- Kama
Message no. 17
From: Bill Thompson <BillT@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:40:06 -0800
On 12/14/98 Paul Gettle wrote:
>
> As long as you're playing third edition, there's something quite
> simple: The "Sixth World Knowledge" knowledge skills.
>
> BBB3, p.90 (my own emphasis added):
> "Sixth World Knowledge
> This category covers the unique nature of the world now that
> magic has returned to it. For practical purposes, this skill covers
> THE BASE OF KNOWLEDGE FOUND WITHIN VARIOUS SHADOWRUN SOURCEBOOKS."
>
> If your players want their characters to know the type of information
> that would be in a sourcebook, make them spend the chargen or karma
> points to buy the appropriate Sixth World Knowledge skill. Then if the
> character is trying to remember something specific that the player has
> looked up in a book, then have the character roll a standard knowledge
> skill test. (t# based on the obscurity of the fact, # of successes
> indicating the knowledge gained.)
>

DOH! I had compleatly missed that. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Thanx Paul!

Bill Thompson - Mahagonny.com
On the Internet there are no independent agents.
Message no. 18
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:44:51 -0600
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:28:37 -0500 Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
writes:
>On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:47:41 -0600 "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
>writes:
>>Well, one thing is to let the characters program their trid set (If
>>they have one and I deem that it is sophisticated enough) to collect
>>news broadcasts on certain topics or subscribe to certain ... I don't
>>mailing lists (GunLoverRN?), magazines, etc ... Another thing is one
>>of my characters actually has stock in a few megacorps (gotta love
>>those quarterly reports!:)

>I sunscribe to many lists and have access to a lot of info coming in
>from various sources about various topics and sometimes I do not read
>them! Even subscribers sometimes will over look things, it is human
>nature. How many people on this list actually read 100% of the mail?
>
>I know I do not, but sometimes thinkI should

I read most of it ... but most people who flag certain topics/keywords
probably read those fairly regularly ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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Message no. 19
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:13:31 -0600
----------
> From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
>
> > ----------
> > > From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
> > >
> > > A few of us do. Of course, we hate to admit it when spend that much
time
> > > reading this stuff and still don't always understand it all (optics
. .
> >
>
> Errrr . . . This is another one of those messages I don't understand . .
Message no. 20
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:38:48 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:40 AM 12/15/98 -0800, Bill wrote:
>> As long as you're playing third edition, there's something quite
>> simple: The "Sixth World Knowledge" knowledge skills.
<<Snip>>
>DOH! I had compleatly missed that. That is exactly what I was looking
for.
>
>Thanx Paul!

That's ok, it's quite easy to skim over it, even after a couple of
readthroughs. I think part of the problem comes from the name that
they gave that knowledge-type. "Sixth World Knowledge" almost sounds
like it should just be limited to Awakening-related phenomena, but
that's not the case, it's anything that would be in any sourcebook.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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Message no. 21
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:18:20 -0600
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:38:48 -0500 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 10:40 AM 12/15/98 -0800, Bill wrote:
>>> As long as you're playing third edition, there's something quite
>>> simple: The "Sixth World Knowledge" knowledge skills.
><<Snip>>
>>DOH! I had compleatly missed that. That is exactly what I was looking
for.
>>
>>Thanx Paul!

>That's ok, it's quite easy to skim over it, even after a couple of
>readthroughs. I think part of the problem comes from the name that
>they gave that knowledge-type. "Sixth World Knowledge" almost sounds
>like it should just be limited to Awakening-related phenomena, but
>that's not the case, it's anything that would be in any sourcebook.

The problem is how do you handle a character who has read a few things
but does not really have a working knowledge? For example, Someone
subscribes to (and reads) Popular Cybertechnology and sees an article on
the latest Smartlink technology ... does that count as a low level skill?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:00 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 23:18 on 15 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> The problem is how do you handle a character who has read a few things
> but does not really have a working knowledge? For example, Someone
> subscribes to (and reads) Popular Cybertechnology and sees an article on
> the latest Smartlink technology ... does that count as a low level skill?

I'd call that Cybertechnology skill at level 1 or 2. The character knows
the basics of cybertechnology 9due to reading the magazine), can try to
explain some of the workings of it, might (might!) be able to identify
different models of the same kind of 'ware, and so on, but lacks any true
in-depth knowledge.

To continue with the smartlink, a character with such a skill could likely
identify a smartlink when he or she sees one ("It's a smartlink!"),
explain roughly how it works ("The gun sends signals to the computer in
the head about its angles and so on."), and might be able to tell that
it's an Ares-manufactured model SUX-2 (though at a high target number,
because to people with low skills, similar things tend to look the same).

There's a player in my group who is a good example of this -- he watches
Discovery Channel a lot and then tries to explain stuff to me that I've
read and seen a lot more about than he has.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do you mean, "let it"? How can you stop it?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:11:57 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:18 PM 12/15/98 -0600, D.Ghost wrote:
>The problem is how do you handle a character who has read a few
things
>but does not really have a working knowledge? For example, Someone
>subscribes to (and reads) Popular Cybertechnology and sees an article
on
>the latest Smartlink technology ... does that count as a low level
skill?

It could very well be a skill with a rating of 1, but only if the
character spends the karma on it. A skill rating of 1 probably
represents more knowledge than would be contained in a single magazine
article, but it could very well be that by reading the article, the
character gains new insight on other material in the same field that
the character has previously read/been exposed to. The spending of
karma represents the information crystalizing for the character,
becoming codified in the character's brain into an actual usable
skill.

The BBB3 describes rating 1 knowledge skills as knowing "only the most
basic facts...[but no] background or context". Also, the Rule of One
would apply to such a skill, so 1/6th of the time, when the player
rolls the Knowledge Skill test, the information he remembers will be
entirely incorrect. Even when the die does come up sucessful, the
information gained by a knowledge skill test is limited by the total
number of successes, and the lone success from a rating 1 skill would
only ever result in general knowledge, no details. (Fun tricks like
Task Pool use, Complimentary Skill rolls, and Partial Defaulting can
be used to reduce the chances of a botch, and increase the chances of
getting specific details.)

Also, knowledge skills don't have to be broad and wide-reaching in
their scope, such as Cybertechnology. If the character only reads
articles about smartlinks, then Smartlinks could be a valid knowledge
skill. This would mean that the character gets lower target numbers on
some of the knowledge skill tests: certain tidbits of smartlink trivia
might be "Obscure" in the context of Cybertechnology Knowledge, but
merely "Intricate" in the context of Smartlink Knowledge. However, the
character will know little if anything outside the narrowed field.

If the character doesn't want to spend the karma point for a new
knowledge skill, but has a decent memory, they can try to merely
memorize the text. However, they would be limited to the specific
information in the text, and couldn't try to extrapolate from it, or
integrate it with previously learned material, to have the firm grasp
of knowledge that having a Knowledge Skill represents.


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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 24
From: Bill Thompson <BillT@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:00:37 -0800
On 12/16/98 Gurth wrote:

> According to D. Ghost, at 23:18 on 15 Dec 98, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > The problem is how do you handle a character who has read a few things
> > but does not really have a working knowledge? For example, Someone
> > subscribes to (and reads) Popular Cybertechnology and sees an article on
> > the latest Smartlink technology ... does that count as a low level skill?
>
> I'd call that Cybertechnology skill at level 1 or 2. The character knows
> the basics of cybertechnology 9due to reading the magazine), can try to
> explain some of the workings of it, might (might!) be able to identify
> different models of the same kind of 'ware, and so on, but lacks any true
> in-depth knowledge.

Using the SR3 rules, I would do it a little diffrent. Instead of letting the
player default to a Cybertechnology 1 I would allow them to roll the full
rating of the "Sixth World Knowledge" skill, but at a much higher target
number.

Example:
Dr. Benway needs to identify a piece of cyberware. He has a Cybertechnology
skill so the GM gives him a standard target number of 4. His assistant also
tries to identify the cyberware using Sixth World Knowledge, so the GM gives
her a target number of 8.

( I'm really having fun with the new skill default rules!)

Bill Thompson - Mahagonny.com
On the Internet there are no independent agents.
Message no. 25
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:46:04 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:00 AM 12/16/98 -0800, Bill wrote:
>Using the SR3 rules, I would do it a little diffrent. Instead of
letting the
>player default to a Cybertechnology 1 I would allow them to roll the
full
>rating of the "Sixth World Knowledge" skill, but at a much higher
target
>number.

The impression that I get from the BBB3 is that "Sixth World
Knowledge" isn't a single knowledge skill, but a category of knowledge
skills, just as "Street Knowledge" and "Academic Knowledge" are
categories.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 26
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:26:17 -0600
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:00:37 -0800 Bill Thompson <BillT@*********.COM>
writes:
>On 12/16/98 Gurth wrote:
>> According to D. Ghost, at 23:18 on 15 Dec 98, the word on
>> the street was...
>>
>> > The problem is how do you handle a character who has read a few
things
>> > but does not really have a working knowledge? For example, Someone
>> > subscribes to (and reads) Popular Cybertechnology and sees an
article on
>> > the latest Smartlink technology ... does that count as a low level
skill?

>> I'd call that Cybertechnology skill at level 1 or 2. The character
knows
>> the basics of cybertechnology 9due to reading the magazine), can try
to
>> explain some of the workings of it, might (might!) be able to identify
>> different models of the same kind of 'ware, and so on, but lacks any
true
>> in-depth knowledge.

>Using the SR3 rules, I would do it a little diffrent. Instead of letting
the
>player default to a Cybertechnology 1 I would allow them to roll the
full
>rating of the "Sixth World Knowledge" skill, but at a much higher target
>number.
>
>Example:
>Dr. Benway needs to identify a piece of cyberware. He has a
Cybertechnology
>skill so the GM gives him a standard target number of 4. His assistant
also
>tries to identify the cyberware using Sixth World Knowledge, so the GM
gives
>her a target number of 8.
>
>( I'm really having fun with the new skill default rules!)

Actually, Bill, Six World Knowledge is a collection of skills. One of
which is Cybertechnology. So instead of Six World Knowledge, Dr.
Benway's assistant would have cybertechnology, metahumanity, paranormal
animals, or something similar. Also, he might have a skill or three from
the Academic group such as medicine, biology, psychology, botany, etc ...

Btw, shouldn't parazoology and parabiology fall under Sixth World
Knowledge (not that it makes a difference)?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 27
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:18:31 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:26 PM 12/16/98 -0600, D.Ghost wrote:
>Actually, Bill, Six World Knowledge is a collection
>of skills. One of which is Cybertechnology. So
>instead of Six World Knowledge, Dr. Benway's assistant
>would have cybertechnology, metahumanity, paranormal
^^^^^^^^^^
>animals, or something similar. Also, he might have a
^^^^^^^
>skill or three from the Academic group such as medicine,
>biology, psychology, botany, etc ...
>
>Btw, shouldn't parazoology and parabiology fall under Sixth World
^^^^^^^^^^^
>Knowledge (not that it makes a difference)?

"Parazoology" -- "Paranormal Animals". Six of One, Half Dozen of the
Other. :)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 28
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:11:04 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 17 December 1998 01:32
Subject: Re: Player SOTA

<big snip>

>Actually, Bill, Six World Knowledge is a collection of skills. One
of
>which is Cybertechnology. So instead of Six World Knowledge, Dr.
>Benway's assistant would have cybertechnology, metahumanity,
paranormal
>animals, or something similar. Also, he might have a skill or three
from
>the Academic group such as medicine, biology, psychology, botany, etc
...
>
>Btw, shouldn't parazoology and parabiology fall under Sixth World
>Knowledge (not that it makes a difference)?


Reading your post made me think about the Knowledge skills as
presented in SR3
According to your example each skill is one Category ot the other. I
have been using the system
in such a way that each skill could be in any Category.

Take Cybertechnology for example. It seems feasible that Street
Knowledge could exist about it.
(what ware to get where, what combinations are cheapest, which thugs
are selling what etc...)
It could also be an Academic pursuit (Close to medicine, perhaps the
surgical procedures etc..)
It is listed as a Sixth World skill, but could well be an Interest...

I record the Skill name and skill category on my sheet... just in
case...

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Eva's Gyro
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:26:59 +0100
According to Bill Thompson, at 11:00 on 16 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> Using the SR3 rules, I would do it a little diffrent. Instead of letting the
> player default to a Cybertechnology 1 I would allow them to roll the full
> rating of the "Sixth World Knowledge" skill, but at a much higher target
> number.

There is no "Sixth World Knowledge" skill -- it's a _category_ of
knowledge skills, and Cybertechnology falls into this category. The quote
from the SR3 main rules posted on the list a few days might have mislead
some people into thinking Sixth World Knowledge is a skill itself, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do you mean, "let it"? How can you stop it?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Bill Thompson <BillT@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:50:29 -0800
On 12/17/98 Gurth wrote:

> According to Bill Thompson, at 11:00 on 16 Dec 98, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Using the SR3 rules, I would do it a little diffrent. Instead of letting
>the
> > player default to a Cybertechnology 1 I would allow them to roll the full
> > rating of the "Sixth World Knowledge" skill, but at a much higher
target
> > number.
>
> There is no "Sixth World Knowledge" skill -- it's a _category_ of
> knowledge skills, and Cybertechnology falls into this category. The quote
> from the SR3 main rules posted on the list a few days might have mislead
> some people into thinking Sixth World Knowledge is a skill itself, though.
>

Yes, I re-read the rules last night (which I probably should have done BEFORE
I posted) and you are correct. For some reason I had interpreted the
categories as skills and the examples as specializations. I guess I'm still
trying to get SR2 out of my system. Luckily most of my players read the
character creation section closer than I did so they all have specific
knowledge skills.

Bill Thompson - Mahagonny.com
On the Internet there are no independent agents.
Message no. 31
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Player SOTA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:24:42 -0600
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:11:04 +0200 Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA> writes:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
>Date: 17 December 1998 01:32
>Subject: Re: Player SOTA
><big snip>

>>Actually, Bill, Six World Knowledge is a collection of skills. One of
>>which is Cybertechnology. So instead of Six World Knowledge, Dr.
>>Benway's assistant would have cybertechnology, metahumanity, paranormal
>>animals, or something similar. Also, he might have a skill or three
from
>>the Academic group such as medicine, biology, psychology, botany, etc
...
>>
>>Btw, shouldn't parazoology and parabiology fall under Sixth World
>>Knowledge (not that it makes a difference)?

>Reading your post made me think about the Knowledge skills as
>presented in SR3
>According to your example each skill is one Category ot the other. I
>have been using the system
>in such a way that each skill could be in any Category.

It doesn't matter really what category a skill falls under (Street
knowledge, Acamdeics, Sixth World, etc). What matters is what the skill
is defined to cover.

>Take Cybertechnology for example. It seems feasible that Street
>Knowledge could exist about it.
>(what ware to get where, what combinations are cheapest, which thugs
>are selling what etc...)
>It could also be an Academic pursuit (Close to medicine, perhaps the
>surgical procedures etc..)
>It is listed as a Sixth World skill, but could well be an Interest...
<SNIP>

No ... Not really. (IMO.) Cybertechnology is the Science of cybernetics
... not the miscelaneous cybernetics skills skill. If you want Street
knowledge about Cyberware buy a skill in something like Black Market
Cyberware. Now, you could you /possibly/ use the Cybertechnology skill
to find out about cyberware on the street but I'd jack up the target
number ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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