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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Players vs GMs
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 1994 16:02:22 -0500
I'm getting slightly ticked off with all this anti-player stuff floating around.
Sure, you can be the greatest GM in the world, with the most descriptive and
wonderful scenarios, but without players...

This game isn't like a Storytelling game from White Wolf (and few of their works
are actually good Storytelling games. IMHO, Vampire's by far the least combat-
oriented and the best made). It's a traditional roleplaying game in most
respects.

The problem: It disintegrates into players vs GM.

The solution: Don't concentrate on trashing out your players all the time, or
cheating them out of 1 Karma. Let them play the game and have fun. You are
there to facilitate, not to be a God who can trash their characters at a
moment's notice with 200 Ares Security Assault Divisions.

Munchkinism works both ways...and often munchkin players breed munchkin GMs, and
vice-versa.

________________________________________________________________________________
Gian-Paolo Musumeci [solstice@****.edu]

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the
skull and crossbones, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken
Message no. 2
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Players vs GMs
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 1994 13:24:03 +1000
Gian-Paolo writes:
> I'm getting slightly ticked off with all this anti-player stuff floating around.
> Sure, you can be the greatest GM in the world, with the most descriptive and
> wonderful scenarios, but without players...
>
> This game isn't like a Storytelling game from White Wolf (and few of their works
> are actually good Storytelling games. IMHO, Vampire's by far the least combat-
> oriented and the best made). It's a traditional roleplaying game in most
> respects.

If ya like Vampire so much, then go play it instead of SR. I rather like SR
because of its good system and mechanics. (oops, that sounds a bit agro doesn't
it - don't take offence anyone - particularily Gian-Paolo :-)

> The problem: It disintegrates into players vs GM.
>
> The solution: Don't concentrate on trashing out your players all the time, or
> cheating them out of 1 Karma. Let them play the game and have fun. You are

I was one of the people who /jokingly/ suggested that the players get cheated
out of 1 karma. We all realise that with no players we would be nothing.
Next time I'll make my :-) more explicit.

> there to facilitate, not to be a God who can trash their characters at a
> moment's notice with 200 Ares Security Assault Divisions.

well if they're munchkins :-) (For those likely to take offence that was in
humour - if ya can call it that )

Damion
Message no. 3
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Players vs GMs
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 12:37:16 -0700
On Sun, 12 Jun 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> I'm getting slightly ticked off with all this anti-player stuff floating around.
> Sure, you can be the greatest GM in the world, with the most descriptive and
> wonderful scenarios, but without players...

I am wondering how many players, and how much the players know about the
game, that some of these "GMs" have.

>
> This game isn't like a Storytelling game from White Wolf (and few of their works
> are actually good Storytelling games. IMHO, Vampire's by far the least combat-
> oriented and the best made). It's a traditional roleplaying game in most
> respects.
>
Correct. It has a non-traditional system, but the ideas are pretty
traditional in their execution.


> The problem: It disintegrates into players vs GM.
>

Only when the GM is the munchkin in the group, and even then only if the
players don't really understand the rules. Trouble is, most players
really don't spend the time they need to for full understanding. Too
many players come from the AD&D/D&D ranks, where they "learned" the game
by playing it. So they take their buddies, and their GMs, advice without
ever looking at the rules in question.

> The solution: Don't concentrate on trashing out your players all the time, or
> cheating them out of 1 Karma. Let them play the game and have fun. You are
> there to facilitate, not to be a God who can trash their characters at a
> moment's notice with 200 Ares Security Assault Divisions.

Gain-Paolo, this used to be said all the time about D&D/AD&D too. But it
really bears repeating. RPGs are supposed to be a co-operation, not a
contest. In a contest, even the honest GM can always win. The ones who
start by weakening their player's characters just have it easier.

> Munchkinism works both ways...and often munchkin players breed munchkin GMs, and
> vice-versa.

I really think there are more munchkin GMs in the SRII fold than there
are munchkin players. The game is pretty well designed to tamp the
munchkin players down. But only sharp players can tamp the munchkin GMs
down, and there aren't enough sharp players out there.

> ________________________________________________________________________________
> Gian-Paolo Musumeci [solstice@****.edu]

Ivy

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