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Message no. 1
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:36:54 -0400
I seem to recall seeing something about this recently on RN, but I can't
recall for sure...

One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like poison
or sleep juice in them. Sort of odd, considering he and his PC are really
melee specialists.

Now, my inclination is to say no. Other items have similar affects and the
proposed idea probably wouldn't really work.

But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern high-tech
bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had anything to say
about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take back to him when I
say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable, non-munchkin version of
the concept that won't break the game.

Ideas?

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 2
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:05:12 -0400
> I seem to recall seeing something about this recently on RN, but I
> can't
> recall for sure...
>
> One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like
> poison
> or sleep juice in them. Sort of odd, considering he and his PC are
> really
> melee specialists.
>
> Now, my inclination is to say no. Other items have similar affects
> and the
> proposed idea probably wouldn't really work.
>
> But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern
> high-tech
> bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had anything to say
> about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take back to him
> when I
> say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable, non-munchkin version
> of
> the concept that won't break the game.
>
It can be done. Very rarely IS done, but it can be. The
cost (time & money) to make a single bullet goes way up. But a small
batch could be made for a given purpose. Knockout drops in a live bullet
seems a bit silly to me since you just shot the guy adrenaline isn't
gonna let him pass out unless he just can't handle the pain of loses too
much blood.

Something like curare (sp?) or cyanide or treefrog
poison would definitely put a hurting on someone however. If they're out
to kill folk this is a pretty good way to do it. Some venoms work before
you can even realize you are dying (long, but true, story).

Please correct me folks if I'm wrong (Like I'm actually worried
that you won't :)

Basically you would make a hollowpoint (remove some lead
from the tip) and put the poison in the space and seal the hole back up,
either with more lead or a jacket of some sort. You could also (if you
have the means) put the poison in a container (brass sphere or similar)
and put that in there and just pour the lead on it. I imagine dumping
hot lead on the poisons would offset their natural properties though.

Anyway this could be done but you would need a very high
potency poison due to the small amount that is delivered. Curare, amazon
treefrog venom or perhaps sea snake poison would all work well.
However knowing your distaste for killing folk in your
games I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble. You also might think about
giving the bullets a chance of breaking in flight, or worse yet, in the
gun. Some poisons (e.g. treefrog) are touch, others need internal
contact (e.g. curare). So having your gun dripping treefrog venom is
bad.

Later...
Message no. 3
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:09:44 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
>I seem to recall seeing something about this recently on RN, but I can't
>recall for sure...
>
>One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like poison
>or sleep juice in them. Sort of odd, considering he and his PC are really
>melee specialists.
>
>Now, my inclination is to say no. Other items have similar affects and the
>proposed idea probably wouldn't really work.

The only advantage that I can see over the alternatives (Squirt, EL-DAR,
needler) would be the ballistic damage. You could poison the bullets,
I've no doubt, but it'd be an expensive custom job - why bother, when
the alternatives are easily purchased?

>But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern high-tech
>bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had anything to say
>about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take back to him when I
>say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable, non-munchkin version of
>the concept that won't break the game.

I'd suggest just giving the player a squirt/needler. Either that or
make it prohibitively expensive (if he can even find somebody to make
it for him). It'd significantly reduce the density (thus the momentum
and accuracy due to air resistance) of the round, anyway.

James Ojaste
Message no. 4
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:31:10 -0500
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:36:54 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>I seem to recall seeing something about this recently on RN, but I can't
>recall for sure...
>
>One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like
poison
>or sleep juice in them. Sort of odd, considering he and his PC are
really
>melee specialists.
>
>Now, my inclination is to say no. Other items have similar affects and
the
>proposed idea probably wouldn't really work.
>
>But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern high-tech
>bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had anything to say
>about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take back to him when
I
>say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable, non-munchkin version of
>the concept that won't break the game.
>
>Ideas?
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP Sig>

Off the top of my head (And I don't know that much about ballistics):
1) Just Use a NarcoJet with something other than Narcojet ...
2) Cost = 200 nuyen per 10 rounds + cost of Toxin ... defends against
150% of Impact armor ... If Target dodges completely using Combat Pool,
then no effect, otherwise Toxin affects as per rules for Narcojet (Target
must make Bod test againt Toxin w/o armor)

Sound good?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 5
From: Bill Blackbrain <Blackbrain@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:03:52 -0700
On 7/20/98 Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

> Erik Jameson wrote:
> >I seem to recall seeing something about this recently on RN, but I can't
> >recall for sure...
> >
> >One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like poison
> >or sleep juice in them. Sort of odd, considering he and his PC are really
> >melee specialists.
> >
> >Now, my inclination is to say no. Other items have similar affects and the
> >proposed idea probably wouldn't really work.
>
> The only advantage that I can see over the alternatives (Squirt, EL-DAR,
> needler) would be the ballistic damage. You could poison the bullets,
> I've no doubt, but it'd be an expensive custom job - why bother, when
> the alternatives are easily purchased?
>
> >But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern high-tech
> >bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had anything to say
> >about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take back to him when I
> >say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable, non-munchkin version of
> >the concept that won't break the game.
>
> I'd suggest just giving the player a squirt/needler. Either that or
> make it prohibitively expensive (if he can even find somebody to make
> it for him). It'd significantly reduce the density (thus the momentum
> and accuracy due to air resistance) of the round, anyway.
>
> James Ojaste

How about Gel rounds with a DMSO/Toxin mix injected into the gel itself? Since
gel rounds are designed to flatten on impact, the mixture would be released
and possibly contact the targets skin. The DMSO would carry the toxin through
the skin into the blood stream. Of course you would only damage the target as
per gel rounds (1/2 damage?), but you wouldn't have to carry two weapons.

------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Blackbrain | I can't tell if I'm a
Blackbrain@*********.com | cypherpunk or a
PGPKey available at | cryptofascist.
http://www.Mahagonny.com/pgp |
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:25:32 -0400
At 04:05 PM 7/20/98 -0400, you wrote:

> It can be done. Very rarely IS done, but it can be. The
>cost (time & money) to make a single bullet goes way up. But a small
>batch could be made for a given purpose. Knockout drops in a live bullet
>seems a bit silly to me since you just shot the guy adrenaline isn't
>gonna let him pass out unless he just can't handle the pain of loses too
>much blood.

My thinking is that stun rounds are far better when using a gun to try and
knock someone down.

> Something like curare (sp?) or cyanide or treefrog
>poison would definitely put a hurting on someone however. If they're out
>to kill folk this is a pretty good way to do it. Some venoms work before
>you can even realize you are dying (long, but true, story).

Supposedly some assassins do this, right? The medical folks are so worried
about the bullet wound, they may not notice the poison until it's too late
or something, right?

> Anyway this could be done but you would need a very high
>potency poison due to the small amount that is delivered. Curare, amazon
>treefrog venom or perhaps sea snake poison would all work well.

All of which should be difficult to get a hold of, yes?

> However knowing your distaste for killing folk in your
>games I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble.

I'm not adverse to killing, I'm adverse to needlessly killing people and
the attitude that it's okay to just waste NPCs because they are just
monsters or not as good as the PCs or something.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 7
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:01:37 -0700
Erik Jameson on -268443480 wrote:
> At 04:05 PM 7/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
> My thinking is that stun rounds are far better when using a gun to try and
> knock someone down.

In terms of a non-lethal knockdown, yes. But I think real bullets
transfer more kinetic energy. Even if they pass through, that just
means the bullet had more than the body could take.

> Supposedly some assassins do this, right? The medical folks are so worried
> about the bullet wound, they may not notice the poison until it's too late
> or something, right?

I've heard of mercury tipped bullets. Is there anything to mercury
tipped bullets that makes them viable? I guess mercury poisening
is a bad thing in general, but can a bullet hold enough?

> > However knowing your distaste for killing folk in your
> >games I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble.
>
> I'm not adverse to killing, I'm adverse to needlessly killing people and
> the attitude that it's okay to just waste NPCs because they are just
> monsters or not as good as the PCs or something.
>

Really? Wow. So you advocate killing NPCs when necessary, but you
kill-filed me for advocating that position with DM in response to an article
that advocated killing PCs who ever use their guns for destorying
anything other than soda cans. I guess 1 + 1 does equal 3 for extremely
large values of 1.

Cheers,
-Rob
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:21:47 +1000
Robert Nesius writes:
> > My thinking is that stun rounds are far better when using a gun
> to try and
> > knock someone down.
>
> In terms of a non-lethal knockdown, yes. But I think real bullets
> transfer more kinetic energy. Even if they pass through, that just
> means the bullet had more than the body could take.

Nope, bzzt, wrong guess. If a bullet passes through, that means it had more
kinetic energy than it could transfer to the part of the body it was in
contact with. Streamline a bullet enough, and it will transfer almost no
energy besides what it needs to drill the hole. If you want to transfer
energy, you need a _relatively_ large surface, such as a bullet that
flattens out on impact, or a larger projectile (like the so-called "rubber
bullets").

A projectile that transfers all of its energy will stop flat on (or in) the
target. A projectile that bounces or passes through has not transfered all
of its energy. Sure, bullets can have more energy (they go faster, and
velocity is more important than mass for energy), but in terms of impulse,
they can be quite low.

OTH, conservation of energy and momentum still holds. You can't fire a
projectile that's certain to knock someone down unless it's also certain to
knock you down (rocket-propelled bullets are an exception, for the GyroJet
fans).

> Really? Wow. So you advocate killing NPCs when necessary, but you
> kill-filed me for advocating that position with DM in response to
> an article
> that advocated killing PCs who ever use their guns for destorying
> anything other than soda cans. I guess 1 + 1 does equal 3 for extremely
> large values of 1.

Just drop it, okay, Rob? I, for one, have had enough of that idiotic
argument, and if you keep bringing it up, I'll join Erik in kill-filing you.

BTW, Erik kill-filed you for the offensive comments you, and Da Minotaur,
were making about him personally.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it binds
the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 9
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:52:44 -0700
Robert Watkins on -268443480 wrote:
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> Robert Nesius writes:
> > > My thinking is that stun rounds are far better when using a gun
> > to try and
> > > knock someone down.
> >
> > In terms of a non-lethal knockdown, yes. But I think real bullets
> > transfer more kinetic energy. Even if they pass through, that just
> > means the bullet had more than the body could take.
>
> Nope, bzzt, wrong guess. If a bullet passes through, that means it had more
> kinetic energy than it could transfer to the part of the body it was in
> contact with. Streamline a bullet enough, and it will transfer almost no
> energy besides what it needs to drill the hole. If you want to transfer
> energy, you need a _relatively_ large surface, such as a bullet that
> flattens out on impact, or a larger projectile (like the so-called "rubber
> bullets").

Ah, okay. I was thinking of the so-called "man stopper bullets," and
relating that to the general case. Thanks for the clarification.

-Rob
Message no. 10
From: Shadowrunner <nocturnal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:39:02 +0000
Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> I seem to recall seeing something about this recently on RN, but I can't
> recall for sure...
>
> One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like poison
> or sleep juice in them. Sort of odd, considering he and his PC are really
> melee specialists.
>
> Now, my inclination is to say no. Other items have similar affects and the
> proposed idea probably wouldn't really work.
>
> But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern high-tech
> bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had anything to say
> about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take back to him when I
> say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable, non-munchkin version of
> the concept that won't break the game.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Erik J.
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
> The Reality Check for a Fictional World

Simple. take an explosive round and disarm it. Remove some of the explosive schtuff and
replace it with Gamma Scopolamine (CorpSec.. kick ass drug- paralysis then truth syrum).
When the round hits (an unarmored target), it'll explode lightly under the skin, damaging
and paralyzing the person. (Note: Do not try making bullets like this without an
appropriate
skill; make up a skill like "Bullet Building" or Ballistics or something)

-Noc
Message no. 11
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:16:36 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-20 15:43:16 EDT, you write:

>One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like poison
>or sleep juice in them. Sort of odd, considering he and his PC are really
>melee specialists.
> But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern high-tech
> bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had anything to say
> about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take back to him when I
> say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable, non-munchkin version of
> the concept that won't break the game.
>

Shooting someone with a bullet containing some sort of tranq drug is kind of
pointless. There's Narcojet guns for that, assuming that the bullet didn't
kill the target before he passed out. Same situation with poison. The cup of a
hollowpoint is very small, just big enough to fill with tissue and fluid to
cause the bullet to expand. Having liquid inside a bullet causes it to
fragment explosively, which means that you probably don't have to worry about
poisoning the target, because the bullet itself will do a hell of a lot of
damage (does that mean that the character would only shoot the target once and
then wait for the poison to take effect rather than shoot him more than once
and risk having his target die of ballistic accupuncture?).
As for the above mentioned statement about the size of the cavity in a
hollowpoint, the poison would have to be *VERY* powerful for such a small
amount to affect the target. They would actually get more poison in them from
a snake bite than from a hollowpoint filled with a toxin.
If your player really, truly desires using poison (why they would want to,
with lead being so much less expensive and exponentially more reliable is
beyond me), make him track down some empty Narcojet darts and Narcojet
Pistol/Rifle. He'd also have to track do whatever poison he wanted, making it
hard to get and possibly very expensive (Try Death Rattle venom. Only 100K ¥
for a half-liter. Availability 14/3 months. Street Index 3. [How many Fixers
would know someone skilled and crazy enough to milk a Death Rattle {provided
they had access to one} and would be willing to sell the venom that they
had?]).
All in all, I would say that they would be left with the choice of a Narcojet
gun and loading whatever poison they wanted (which goes back to the idea that
they might have to wait for it to take effect, giving the target time to cap
off a couple dozen rounds at the character) or taking the Special Skill:
Animal Handling and searching over Hell and half of Georgia trying to acquire
whatever animal or insect that could produce the poison they wanted, learning
how to harvest the venom safely, take care of the animal or bug so that it
will continue to produce venom, feed it, keep it in the correct controlled
enviornment, dress it, clean up after, play with it, buy it presents on
Christmas and it's birthday, et cetera.
But that's just my 2¢ and I talk a lot.

Mgkelly
Message no. 12
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:42:25 EDT
In a message dated 7/20/98 2:43:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like poison
> or sleep juice in them. Sort of odd, considering he and his PC are really
> melee specialists.
>
> Now, my inclination is to say no. Other items have similar affects and the
> proposed idea probably wouldn't really work.
>
> But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern high-tech
> bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had anything to say
> about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take back to him when I
> say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable, non-munchkin version of
> the concept that won't break the game.
>
> Ideas?
>

How about the guy using some of the guns that are capable of firing gel rounds
(which can contain chemical cocktails ... there are the dart guns ... and for
something slightly different ... how about a paintball gun, except the hollow
paintballs are filled with a chemical cocktail and the like.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 13
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:31:28 -0400
At 09:21 AM 7/21/98 +1000, you wrote:
>Robert Nesius writes:
>> > My thinking is that stun rounds are far better when using a gun
>> to try and
>> > knock someone down.
>>
>> In terms of a non-lethal knockdown, yes. But I think real bullets
>> transfer more kinetic energy. Even if they pass through, that just
>> means the bullet had more than the body could take.
< Snip whole bunch of stuff>

If you really wanted to be able to shoot someone, and have the drug thing,
you could use ice bullets. This was done by the CIA years ago as an
assassination tool. Take a regular rifle round from your sniper rifle and
remove the bullet itself. Then use a bullet mold to make one made out of
ice. Join the bullet to the round and then keep it in a small cooler.

When you're ready to make the shot, pull it out, chamber it, and fire away.
It won't do a lot of fragmentation damage, but the penetration into soft
tissue should be about the same. Not too long after the shot the body will
melt the bullet, so there isn't any ballistic evidence left over.

Now instead of using water to freeze and make the bullet, use some other
mixture. All sorts of evil chemical cocktails can be frozen, and used in
the bullet. It should take a fairly high Firearms B/R skill (not defaulting
from firearms), and a high chemical skill.

Now if you get hit by that, you know you've been hit by the very best!

Sommers
"More rules to add to programs..."
Message no. 14
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:06:48 -0400
Okay, thanks for the replies folks. I wasn't terribly keen on his idea in
the first place and I think I'll simply direct him towards existing canon
tech.

At 09:31 AM 7/21/98 -0400, you wrote:

<CIA ice bullet description snipped>

>Now instead of using water to freeze and make the bullet, use some other
>mixture. All sorts of evil chemical cocktails can be frozen, and used in
>the bullet. It should take a fairly high Firearms B/R skill (not defaulting
>from firearms), and a high chemical skill.

Now that's friggin' evil. I like it. I don't think I'll allow the PC's to
do it (no one has Firearms B/R anyway), but it could be potentially great
fodder for a shadowrun...hired to find out who and how someone was
killed...the how is with iced poison bullets...wicked!

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 15
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:24:56 -0400
> OTH, conservation of energy and momentum still holds. You can't fire a
> projectile that's certain to knock someone down unless it's also
> certain to
> knock you down (rocket-propelled bullets are an exception, for the
> GyroJet
> fans).

Not true. Normal bullets don't (well, usually) knock you
down, but they damn sure put a hurtin on the target.
Since the shape of the bullet is changing this is
inaccurate. Since the bullet starts out as a small aerodynamic shape it
has less recoil than it does on impact. There it becomes a lead pancake.
Much more area to transfer the shock.

> > Really? Wow. So you advocate killing NPCs when necessary, but you
> > kill-filed me for advocating that position with DM in response to
> > an article
> > that advocated killing PCs who ever use their guns for destorying
> > anything other than soda cans. I guess 1 + 1 does equal 3 for
> extremely
> > large values of 1.
>
> Just drop it, okay, Rob? I, for one, have had enough of that idiotic
> argument, and if you keep bringing it up, I'll join Erik in
> kill-filing you.
>
No kidding dude. I'm sorry I even mentioned it.
Message no. 16
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:33:54 -0400
> My thinking is that stun rounds are far better when using a gun to try
> and
> knock someone down.
>
Correct.

> > Something like curare (sp?) or cyanide or treefrog
> >poison would definitely put a hurting on someone however. If they're
> out
> >to kill folk this is a pretty good way to do it. Some venoms work
> before
> >you can even realize you are dying (long, but true, story).
>
> Supposedly some assassins do this, right? The medical folks are so
> worried
> about the bullet wound, they may not notice the poison until it's too
> late
> or something, right?
>
I guess. They're your players. Sounds like a waste of
time to me.

> > Anyway this could be done but you would need a very
> high
> >potency poison due to the small amount that is delivered. Curare,
> amazon
> >treefrog venom or perhaps sea snake poison would all work well.
>
> All of which should be difficult to get a hold of, yes?
>
Oh hell yes.

> > However knowing your distaste for killing folk in
> your
> >games I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble.
>
> I'm not adverse to killing, I'm adverse to needlessly killing people
> and
> the attitude that it's okay to just waste NPCs because they are just
> monsters or not as good as the PCs or something.
>
You know phrased that way, the whole prior argument is
not nearly as exciting. I generally agree. Lets drop this before someone
else starts the fight up again.
Message no. 17
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:37:42 -0400
> As for the above mentioned statement about the size of the cavity in =
a
> hollowpoint, the poison would have to be *VERY* powerful for such a
> small
> amount to affect the target. They would actually get more poison in
> them from
> a snake bite than from a hollowpoint filled with a toxin.
>
Rough calculations... 0.03 mg of poison from a Boomslang
(SE asian snake) will kill a 150lb. man in a few seconds. I believe =
this
is the snake that was called the "Two-step" in Vietnam (i.e. thats how
far you got before you died).

> If your player really, truly desires using poison (why they would =
want
> to,
> with lead being so much less expensive and exponentially more =
reliable
> is
> beyond me), make him track down some empty Narcojet darts and =
Narcojet
> Pistol/Rifle. He'd also have to track do whatever poison he wanted,
> making it
> hard to get and possibly very expensive (Try Death Rattle venom. Only
> 100K ¥
> for a half-liter. Availability 14/3 months. Street Index 3. [How many
> Fixers
> would know someone skilled and crazy enough to milk a Death Rattle
> {provided
> they had access to one} and would be willing to sell the venom that
> they
> had?]).
>
Just shoot it in the middle, let it die and cut out the
poison sacs. Not too tough. Not nearly as nice to the snake but hey,
you're obviously a killer if you want the stuff from the beginning.

> All in all, I would say that they would be left with the choice of a
> Narcojet
> gun and loading whatever poison they wanted (which goes back to the
> idea that
> they might have to wait for it to take effect, giving the target time
> to cap
> off a couple dozen rounds at the character) or taking the Special
> Skill:
> Animal Handling and searching over Hell and half of Georgia trying to
> acquire
> whatever animal or insect that could produce the poison they wanted,
> learning
> how to harvest the venom safely, take care of the animal or bug so
> that it
> will continue to produce venom, feed it, keep it in the correct
> controlled
> enviornment, dress it, clean up after, play with it, buy it presents
> on
> Christmas and it's birthday, et cetera.
> But that's just my 2¢ and I talk a lot.
>
Man, you do. But in generally I agree. While it's
possible its a pain in the butt.
Message no. 18
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:39:46 -0400
> Okay, thanks for the replies folks. I wasn't terribly keen on his
> idea in
> the first place and I think I'll simply direct him towards existing
> canon
> tech.
>
Hell let'em do it if they want to waste that much time.
I think by the time you outline all the steps involved they may
reconsider. 'Course they may have some spiffy plan rollin around in
there. Try to find out, I'm curious why they thought this up.

> At 09:31 AM 7/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
> <CIA ice bullet description snipped>
>
> >Now instead of using water to freeze and make the bullet, use some
> other
> >mixture. All sorts of evil chemical cocktails can be frozen, and used
> in
> >the bullet. It should take a fairly high Firearms B/R skill (not
> defaulting
> >from firearms), and a high chemical skill.
>
> Now that's friggin' evil. I like it. I don't think I'll allow the
> PC's to
> do it (no one has Firearms B/R anyway), but it could be potentially
> great
> fodder for a shadowrun...hired to find out who and how someone was
> killed...the how is with iced poison bullets...wicked!
>
Tres sweet!
Message no. 19
From: "Jonny D. Robinson" <OracleBlur@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:52:04 EDT
<snip background>

Sommers said:

> If you really wanted to be able to shoot someone, and have the drug thing,
> you could use ice bullets. This was done by the CIA years ago as an
> assassination tool. Take a regular rifle round from your sniper rifle and
> remove the bullet itself. Then use a bullet mold to make one made out of
> ice. Join the bullet to the round and then keep it in a small cooler.
>
> When you're ready to make the shot, pull it out, chamber it, and fire away.
> It won't do a lot of fragmentation damage, but the penetration into soft
> tissue should be about the same. Not too long after the shot the body will
> melt the bullet, so there isn't any ballistic evidence left over.

That's some goods! I need to remember that stuff! <grins like a hungry wolf at
PCs>
Message no. 20
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:17:17 -0400
At 02:39 PM 7/21/98 -0400, you wrote:

> Hell let'em do it if they want to waste that much time.
>I think by the time you outline all the steps involved they may
>reconsider. 'Course they may have some spiffy plan rollin around in
>there. Try to find out, I'm curious why they thought this up.

Well, I've got a newer player who RPs extremely well, but he's also
continually trying to implement something he saw on the Discovery Channel
or in a movie into the game. Most of the time I can say it's already in
the game or that that affect would be negligible, it's essentially covered
it the game.

This one though, I recalled something on RN about it, so I thought I'd ask.
I told him I would and true to my word, I did.

Given that his PC has a serious nuyen fetish, I'm not sure he'd be willing
to part with the sort of nuyen that could make these bullets happen. Plus
he's a melee specialist (physadept to use the old parlance), so it's rather
odd for the PC. We'll have to further discuss it Saturday.

>> Now that's friggin' evil. I like it. I don't think I'll allow the
>> PC's to
>> do it (no one has Firearms B/R anyway), but it could be potentially
>> great
>> fodder for a shadowrun...hired to find out who and how someone was
>> killed...the how is with iced poison bullets...wicked!
>>
> Tres sweet!

Ain't it though?

It'll be a while before I can run them through it though. Smilin' Ted, if
you are joining my game Saturday, you probably oughtta skip to the next
message now...

I tossed out the timeline, at least temporarily, so I could run Missing
Blood for them, since it's just too damn cool an adventure to ignore just
because of the timeline. They should be hitting this hive this Saturday
(Smilin' Ted, if you join our game and are still reading, you'll get extra
Karma for keeping your mouth shut about this and pretending you never heard
of Missing Blood or that I mentioned it...) and they, being mostly new to
the whole SR storyline, are terrified of what they've seen so far. It's
great.

I'll probably run the ice-bullet thing on...checking the calendar...August
8, while half the list is at GenCon. Remind me and I'll tell you and/or RN
how it went. After that I'll probably test their morality by running one
of the sex adventures that I'll be posting to my site in a day or two (to
go with the attitudes (up) and cybernetics (soon)). And for those that
think I'm a morality nazi, there will be several options, including one
that is utterly vile and despicable, but it'll be their choice.
Consequences ensue from all of the options though. Should be fun.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 21
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:32:21 -0400
<snip>

> If you really wanted to be able to shoot someone, and have the drug thing,
> you could use ice bullets. This was done by the CIA years ago as an
> assassination tool. Take a regular rifle round from your sniper rifle and
> remove the bullet itself. Then use a bullet mold to make one made out of
> ice. Join the bullet to the round and then keep it in a small cooler.
>
> When you're ready to make the shot, pull it out, chamber it, and fire away.
> It won't do a lot of fragmentation damage, but the penetration into soft
> tissue should be about the same. Not too long after the shot the body will
> melt the bullet, so there isn't any ballistic evidence left over.

In the very first Dick Tracy series, Big Boy did this exact same thing... but
his bullet melted because he did the archtypical villainous thing of explaining
his plan, and during the time it took to do that, the bullet melted... so make
sure that cooler's handy. :)

> Now instead of using water to freeze and make the bullet, use some other
> mixture. All sorts of evil chemical cocktails can be frozen, and used in
> the bullet. It should take a fairly high Firearms B/R skill (not defaulting
> from firearms), and a high chemical skill.

Wouldn't it be much easier to use a Narcojet pistol, or just a hollowpoint
round, or explosive rounds?

> Sommers

--
Stonebow
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.
For he today that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition.
And gentlemen in England now abed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
William Shakespeare
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 22
From: Logan Graves <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:01:30 -0400
In our last episode, Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> One of my players wants to have bullets that include something like
> poison or sleep juice in them.
<0.000000000000000008MP Deleted!>
> But since I know relatively little about ballistics or modern
> high-tech bullets, I thought I'd be fair and see if the List had
> anything to say about it. I'd either like ammo (pun intended) to take
> back to him when I say finally no, or have some sort of reasonable,
> non-munchkin version of the concept that won't break the game.

Erik,

On our "Engineers' Fun Page" at the BKK, about halfway down is a
section on customized shotgun rounds & the many uses of DMSO. There,
you'll find tips & instructions on making gel-chemical rounds.

http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/engfun.htm

On most 'runs we carry both types of ammo. These "soft" gel/chem
rounds are our primary loads, for slipping in & out--undetected (Don't
forget those silencers). And the normal "hard" rounds are for those
times when the drek hits the fan & we've got to fight our way out!

Personally, I favor the contact toxin, NeuroStun VIII, due to its
lasting effects; however, Narcojet works well too. It's faster-acting,
but shorter in duration. Use of *other* less-reputable chemicals is
left to the discretion of the reader.

Good hunting,
--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) There's no personal problem that can't be
solved thru the proper use of high explosives.
Take my EX-ex- for example ...
(>) Fenris <EG!>
Message no. 23
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:42:11 +0200
Robert Nesius wrote:
> (snip)
> I've heard of mercury tipped bullets. Is there anything to mercury
> tipped bullets that makes them viable? I guess mercury poisening
> is a bad thing in general, but can a bullet hold enough?
> (snip)
> -Rob
From what i have seen, mercury poisonning doesn't seem to be the
greatest threat of mercury tipped bullets. They explode when impacting
upon a solid surface. As i, hopefully, haven't seen their effects on
living things, i can't say if the human body can be considered hard
enough to make them explode, but a 30 cm oak tree certainly was.
Message no. 24
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:12:58 -0400
AlSeyMer wrote:
>
> Robert Nesius wrote:
> > (snip)
> > I've heard of mercury tipped bullets. Is there anything to mercury
> > tipped bullets that makes them viable? I guess mercury poisening
> > is a bad thing in general, but can a bullet hold enough?
> > (snip)
> > -Rob
> >From what i have seen, mercury poisonning doesn't seem to be the
> greatest threat of mercury tipped bullets. They explode when impacting
> upon a solid surface. As i, hopefully, haven't seen their effects on
> living things, i can't say if the human body can be considered hard
> enough to make them explode, but a 30 cm oak tree certainly was.

Mercury IS toxic stuff, even in small amounts. I believe that the
bullets fragment or flatten while impacting with human flesh (at the
velocity of a bullet, even the flabbiest human body can be considered
hard enough, I would think) or bone. Particularly bone, I would
say...the mercury shatters, and of course, again, at that velocity does
major damage.


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>



"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

"Crushed to death IS natural. Walls fall on people and kill them all the
time. I just make the walls a little more aggressive about it!"
--Cinder the pyrokinetic/psi, on natural causes of death


http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 25
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:39:12 -0500
>> > (snip)
>> > I've heard of mercury tipped bullets. Is there anything to mercury
>> > tipped bullets that makes them viable? I guess mercury poisening
>> > is a bad thing in general, but can a bullet hold enough?
>> > (snip)

Mercury-tipped bullets are bad news, but the chief effect isn't mercury
poisoning (it's a slow, systemic poison that would take years to build up to
toxic levels). The real danger with mercury-tipped bullets is that, once
the hollowpoint shatters, the mercury tears very large holes in human flesh.

>> As i, hopefully, haven't seen their effects on
>> living things, i can't say if the human body can be considered hard
>> enough to make them explode, but a 30 cm oak tree certainly was.

The human body is more than hard enough. You've not seen the effects these
things have on human flesh. I have, unfortunately (brother's an EMT; I got
to see all sorts of nastiness).

>Mercury IS toxic stuff, even in small amounts.

As said before, true enough, but Hg toxicity isn't what kills you.

>I believe that the
>bullets fragment or flatten while impacting with human flesh (at the
>velocity of a bullet, even the flabbiest human body can be considered
>hard enough, I would think) or bone.

Mercury-tipped bullets are hollow-points, which are bad enough on human
tissue. The addition of the Hg (gods, I hope I'm remembering my periodic
table correctly...) gives it some penetration.

Dancer
Message no. 26
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:48:51 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-24 21:02:44 EDT, Jett writes:

> Mercury IS toxic stuff, even in small amounts. I believe that the
> bullets fragment or flatten while impacting with human flesh (at the
> velocity of a bullet, even the flabbiest human body can be considered
> hard enough, I would think) or bone. Particularly bone, I would
> say...the mercury shatters, and of course, again, at that velocity does
> major damage.
>

Mercury-tips tend to cause an impressive fragmentation. However, getting hit
with one would make mercury-poisoning the last thing on your mind. Tissue and
blood are extremely incompressible at high velocities. Water is actually a
'hard-medium' in ballistics tests, while gelatin is a 'soft-medium'. The
incompressability (Is that even a word or did I just make it up to sound real
smart?) of fluid is also the reason why people go "SPLAT!!" when jumping off a
bridge (for example) into a body of water.
Not only are you worrying about fragments of lead shooting about your body in
random directions when the mercury causes the bullet to explode, but you also
have to deal wtih hydrostatic shock (provided that the bullet possessed
sufficient velocity) running through your circulatory system and exploding
blood vessel and, possibly, cardiovascualar valves.

But that's just my 2¢ and I talk a lot....

Mgkelly
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:54:45 +0100
AlSeyMer said on 1:42/25 Jul 98,...

> From what i have seen, mercury poisonning doesn't seem to be the
> greatest threat of mercury tipped bullets. They explode when impacting
> upon a solid surface.

AFAIK what happens with bullets filled with mercury, is that the
mercury spreads out when the bullet impacts the target (sort of
like a hollowpoint bullet, but liquid instead of solid) and thereby
spreading its energy over a much larger area.

> i can't say if the human body can be considered hard enough to
> make them explode, but a 30 cm oak tree certainly was.

A human body is mostly water; water is a liquid, and liquids can't
be compressed. So what happens when a bullet hits a person is
that the water has to get out of the bullet's way. However it can't
do that quick so the bullet from deforms due to the impact. In
case of a mercury-filled round, the drop of mercury would deform
as well.

In SR terms, I'd probably treat mercury-filled rounds just like
hollowpoints (use whatever rules you think are appropriate; I use
+2 Ballistic armor, +1 Damage Category) except they cost more
(they're harder to construct) and have a higher Availability and
Street Index to reflect the belief on the street that they're
extremely lethal.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Poisoned Bullets?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:57:06 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> (snip)
> AFAIK what happens with bullets filled with mercury, is that the
> mercury spreads out when the bullet impacts the target (sort of
> like a hollowpoint bullet, but liquid instead of solid) and thereby
> spreading its energy over a much larger area.

Thanks :-)
I thought of something like that, but wasn't quite so sure about my
opinion.
By the way, what does "AFAIK" means?

AlSeyMer

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