Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: polluted astral?
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 17:41:00 PDT
I have heard some individuals refer to the astral plane in ED as being
polluted?
Is it? How does it get that way and when will it happen in SR? can make
things interesting. How come the items in earth dawn are not grounded out.
There are dual natured beings in ED how come they do not ground out spells
through items. What else i am looking for is to formulate a way to create
astrally safe magical items. The tech available to PC's is becoming more
more sophisticated why not magic. No more magic rules and tech doesn't.
this is not to start another opinion battle.



Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question is, Are you paranoid
enough? "
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:44:38 +0930
St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
>
> I have heard some individuals refer to the astral plane in ED as being
> polluted?
> Is it? How does it get that way and when will it happen in SR? can make
> things interesting. How come the items in earth dawn are not grounded out.

The Horrors did it.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:17:13 +0100
St. Jean, Ricky said on 2 Oct 95...

> I have heard some individuals refer to the astral plane in ED as being
> polluted?
> Is it? How does it get that way and when will it happen in SR?

It will happen in SR when the Horrors come and roam through the world for a
while. Anywhere a Horror goes, it pollutes the astral plane.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:27:39 GMT
"St. Jean, Ricky" writes

Warning before i start, though it does not give much away the
location of the SR info on this could be called a spoiler. In ED its
sitting in the main rulebook for all to read, along with its effects.



> I have heard some individuals refer to the astral plane in ED as being
> polluted?
> Is it?
Yes, well it is everywhere except possibly the isle of Thera itself
that FASA have supplied Player readable information on.

> How does it get that way and when will it happen in SR?
Answering the second first FASA already list a site in SR where the
astral is polluted.
How does it get that way well.
Sites of magical power, human torture (concentration camps etc) and
nuclear bomb testing won't do it, these can all raise the background
count to a Absolute maxiumum of 5.
The bugs can under very extream condions pollute the astral.
A horror just passing by somewhere pollutes the astral, if it does
things life gets worse.

FASA are not very specific about the requirements, except for horrors
which are fairly well covered in the ED main book, players section.

Note in SR the astral plane is considered polluted at a magical
background count of 6 or more, the rules for background countts this
high are in 'bug city' the example site being background count7 at
the site of the cermak nuke [nuke on top of big active bug hive,
combination pushed matters to polluted]

> can make
> things interesting. How come the items in earth dawn are not grounded out.
A few points

The ED spells work very differently.
ED magicains don't have astral percept or project. [well not in SR
terms]
The ED rules for the astral are very incomplete as yet, There is some
info out there for GM's but its a piece it together job. Life might
sort out once the ED magic book comes out and we have ED equivalents
to everything SR has [were they exist]

> There are dual natured beings in ED how come they do not ground out spells
> through items.
Because ED magicians use spell matrices and Thread magic. Spell
matricies are 'hidden' from astral attack [though the ED compaion
contains ways to attack them], threads probably use a similar
technique but i ahve no information on why they work.

> What else i am looking for is to formulate a way to create
> astrally safe magical items.
You need to learn thread magic. It is questionable i'm affraid wether
the magic level in SR is high enough yet to learn this, but i don't
know. Never mind trying to reasaearch it as it would be classed as
metamagic in SR.

> The tech available to PC's is becoming more
> more sophisticated why not magic. No more magic rules and tech doesn't.
> this is not to start another opinion battle.
>
Finally one thing to add.
What we really need is a way to cast spells without those annoying
background count modifiers. This exists in ED, spell matrices, they
aslos don't casue drain as the mana is channeled through the matrix
not your body, however before the munchkins get going note they have
to be attuned to a specific spell, and are therefore not as flexible
as SR magic (raw magic in ED terms). I have however been working on a
SR implementaion, it as one might expect is karma expensive, requires
lots of initation but the thought of throwing fireballs for no drain
or background count modifiers! Can post eventually if folks are
interested [not present version not tested]


>
>
> Ricky


Mark
Message no. 5
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:34:25 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> It will happen in SR when the Horrors come and roam through the world for a
> while. Anywhere a Horror goes, it pollutes the astral plane.
Hm, sounds like a German on holidays...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 6
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:37:48 +0100
At 12.34 03/10/95 +0100, you wrote:
>Gurth wrote:
>> It will happen in SR when the Horrors come and roam through the world for a
>> while. Anywhere a Horror goes, it pollutes the astral plane.
>Hm, sounds like a German on holidays...
>
> Sascha

Eh.. I remember, back in '82, I was camping in former jugoslavija and we set
up a drive-in like structure to watch the world cup final (soccer) between
Italy and Germany. Some Germans looked us all day preparing the event and
then, after bribing us with some cans of beer, joined us for the match.

Next morning we had to dig up all the mess caused by the audience (we and
the germans) before, during and after the match. We didn't really count the
beer cans laying on the ground, but it was in the hundreds...:)

Very funny.

No, it's not related to Shadowrun in any way, I know....

Bye, Paolo
------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider http://www.interware.it/users/paolo
Trieste, Italy
Ph. +39-40-774488
------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of The Shadowrun Archive
Message no. 7
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:51:10 +0100
St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
>
> I have heard some individuals refer to the astral plane in ED as being
> polluted?
> Is it? How does it get that way and when will it happen in SR? can make
> things interesting.

It is polluted, and polluted is just a fancy term for background count.
The astral has in ED a very high background count, because of the various
attrocities performed by the big bad horrors.

> How come the items in earth dawn are not grounded out.
> There are dual natured beings in ED how come they do not ground out spells
> through items.

Due to the very high mana level and the "polluted" astral things work
differently. For example magical items are simply "created" with karma and
most of the time bloodmagic. For example, lets say that a hero decides
to protect his home/caer/whatever from a certain horror, he takes a sacred
oath and uses his lifeforce (blood magic) to seal that oath. Now lets
suppose that the hero dies, his weapon has a good chance of becoming magical.
It magic will be closely interwoven with the "legend" (karma) of the hero
and the blood magic.

As for why cant one use such items as grounding gates, well who knows.
Maybe its just because the bad guys (horrors) dont cast spells (not sure
about that), or maybe its because noone casts raw (the way magicians do it
in SR) anyway. Raw means without the use of protective matrices. These
matrices allow the magician to cast a spell without taking drain and without
the negative influence of the polluted astral, they also keep the spell-
casting "silent" to prevent horrors from tracking the magician down.

> What else i am looking for is to formulate a way to create
> astrally safe magical items. The tech available to PC's is becoming more
> more sophisticated why not magic. No more magic rules and tech doesn't.
> this is not to start another opinion battle.

The way to go is stacking or anchoring. If you want to create a "safe"
lock stack it together with a force 10 power focus. This give iz an effective
rating of 11.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 8
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:53:00 PDT
>> I have heard some individuals refer to the astral plane in ED as being
>> polluted?
> >Is it? How does it get that way and when will it happen in SR?

>It will happen in SR when the Horrors come and roam through the world for a
>while. Anywhere a Horror goes, it pollutes the astral plane.

How do they do this?

when are horrors going to arrive. Someone said 500 years early. But how
early is that?
Message no. 9
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:30:59 -0400
On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
> How do they do this?
> when are horrors going to arrive. Someone said 500 years early. But how
> early is that?

They'll arrive between 300-400 years from 2056. At least, if I
remember from Harlequin's Back, around there.

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 10
From: Magnus 'Gizmo' Bergqvist <NDB123@***.SHV.HB.SE>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 20:32:40 MET-1MEST
> On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
> > How do they do this?
> > when are horrors going to arrive. Someone said 500 years early. But how
> > early is that?
>
> They'll arrive between 300-400 years from 2056. At least, if I
> remember from Harlequin's Back, around there.
Actually I think they would arrive even sooner. I do however remember
that the invae were a couple of hundred years early, and they are
already here. I think it said something on the back of HB, that the
horrors were 2500 years early, meaning that it wouldn't be long
until they did emerge. Besides certain sourcebooks also gives hints
that they are about to emerge..... (cybertech. I don't have aztlan
sourcebook yet.)



*************************
* Wake up, time to die! *
*************************
Message no. 11
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:01:14 +0100
St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
> How do they do this?

They create background count through the heavy use of magic and the
intense emotions they evoke.

> when are horrors going to arrive. Someone said 500 years early. But how
> early is that?

We should expect them in about 2000 years. However certain events
can make it easier for the horrors to traverse the gap that separates
us.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 12
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:17:59 GMT
"St. Jean, Ricky" writes

> >It will happen in SR when the Horrors come and roam through the world for a
> >while. Anywhere a Horror goes, it pollutes the astral plane.
>
> How do they do this?
>
They just do, presumablt because they are so alien and what they do
to folks [enjoy their suffering] is so anti our form of life.

> when are horrors going to arrive. Someone said 500 years early. But how
> early is that?
>
The comment associate with Harlequins Back is 'an enemy not due for
2000 years'.

The Horrors should [assuming this high mana cycle is similar to the
last (4th age, ED)] start showing up arround 4000 to 4200 AD, and
arrive in force about 4300 AD.

Due to a certain Ghost Dance induced spike they nearly arrived over
2000 years early. Exactly when they would get through if you fail at
HB is not given but before 2100 would seem reasonable. When they will
actually arrive [in force] we don't know. Some [1 to 10?] are
probably already here due to folks specifically summoning them
across, but that gets you 1 horror at a time. [summon horror is an ED
spell, 8th nethermancer].

Hope that helps a bit.

Mark
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:25:13 GMT
"Magnus 'Gizmo' Bergqvist" writes

> > > when are horrors going to arrive.
> >
> > They'll arrive between 300-400 years from 2056.
guess any figure actually if they are early it could be from next
year to 4000AD depending on the earliest the bridge could let them in
and how well Harlequin and Company do at slowing them down.

> Actually I think they would arrive even sooner. I do however remember
> that the invae were a couple of hundred years early, and they are
> already here.
The Invae (bugs ) are 200 or 300 years early, they first showed up a
good time since, at a guess at least 2045, for involvement in the
Brotherhood, but thats a very rough guess form the 'Universal
brotherhood' sourcebook (7205) which lists the Brotherhood starting
about 2041. No info exists on bugs before this sort of time as fae as
i know.

> I think it said something on the back of HB, that the
> horrors were 2500 years early, meaning that it wouldn't be long
> until they did emerge. Besides certain sourcebooks also gives hints
> that they are about to emerge..... (cybertech. I don't have aztlan
> sourcebook yet.)
>
Cybertech is very very unsubtle.
I was sure enough just readingg the Atzlan sourcebook which carefully
touches the subect. The conversation between Harlequin and Friends in
that is a good read.

>
>
Mark
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:34:17 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 3 Oct 95...

> Gurth wrote:
> > It will happen in SR when the Horrors come and roam through the world for a
> > while. Anywhere a Horror goes, it pollutes the astral plane.
> Hm, sounds like a German on holidays...

Yes, astral space isn't a pretty sight where I live... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:34:17 +0100
St. Jean, Ricky said on 3 Oct 95...

> >> I have heard some individuals refer to the astral plane in ED as being
> >> polluted?
> > >Is it? How does it get that way and when will it happen in SR?
>
> >It will happen in SR when the Horrors come and roam through the world for a
> >while. Anywhere a Horror goes, it pollutes the astral plane.
>
> How do they do this?

Just by being there. Horrors are so unnatural to this world (not to
mentioned evil by our standards) that they pollute astral space
automatically.

> when are horrors going to arrive. Someone said 500 years early. But how
> early is that?

500 years early? Oh, that would then be around the year 3500...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 16
From: David M Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 12:59:15 +0100
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > when are horrors going to arrive. Someone said 500 years early. But how
> > early is that?
>
> We should expect them in about 2000 years. However certain events
> can make it easier for the horrors to traverse the gap that separates
> us.
>

In Earthdawn the horrors are slowly disappearing from the world as the
Mana level decreases. Horrors seem to have a minimum mana level at which
they can maintain a presence in the world. The least powerful horrors
needed the lowest mana level. I get the feeling that horrors needed a
higher threshold to cross over than it took for them to stay.

One of two things seems to be happening in SR. Either the Mana cycle has
been accelerated or the horrors can bridge the gap with less effort. I
agree that the latter is the case.

- David
Message no. 17
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:17:54 +0100
David M Woods wrote:
>
> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> > We should expect them in about 2000 years. However certain events
> > can make it easier for the horrors to traverse the gap that separates
> > us.
> >
>
> In Earthdawn the horrors are slowly disappearing from the world as the
> Mana level decreases. Horrors seem to have a minimum mana level at which
> they can maintain a presence in the world. The least powerful horrors
> needed the lowest mana level. I get the feeling that horrors needed a
> higher threshold to cross over than it took for them to stay.
>
> One of two things seems to be happening in SR. Either the Mana cycle has
> been accelerated or the horrors can bridge the gap with less effort. I
> agree that the latter is the case.

Lets just say that some places on earth have monstrously higher magic
levels than they actually should have. Some of those places where created
by accident, others were created intensionaly.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 18
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.CBS.DK>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 22:49:24 +0100
On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Paolo Marcucci wrote:
>
> Eh.. I remember, back in '82, I was camping in former jugoslavija and we set
> up a drive-in like structure to watch the world cup final (soccer) between
> Italy and Germany. Some Germans looked us all day preparing the event and
> then, after bribing us with some cans of beer, joined us for the match.
>
> Next morning we had to dig up all the mess caused by the audience (we and
> the germans) before, during and after the match. We didn't really count the
> beer cans laying on the ground, but it was in the hundreds...:)
>
> Very funny.
>
> No, it's not related to Shadowrun in any way, I know....


Not at all, but personal stories are spicey as long as they do not cause
the List to be renamed The PersonalLife And Other Stories List :-)

That does not seem to be happening for the moment :-0


--
Regards, Sil
___________
___________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________
Helge Diernaes | "I'm going slightly mad..."
ecocide@***.cbs.dk | Frank Mercury, Queen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
-----------
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: polluted astral?
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:23:16 +0100
Helge Diernaes said on 4 Oct 95...

Helge Diernaes | "I'm going slightly mad..."
> ecocide@***.cbs.dk | Frank Mercury, Queen
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Who?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about polluted astral?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!