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Message no. 1
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Pool Use
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:05:32 -0500
> Re: Pool Use (was; Summer Time) (Alfredo B Alves , Wed 19:04)

> >> For sake of this argument, I'll assume pools represent your
> "focus
> >>and concentration" on the task you are doing", and that current
pool
> values
> >>are good and useful for the given areas.
>
> >Reasonable assumption but nobody, including the DLOH, seems to know why
> we
> >have dice pools. It's an important game mechanic, but no one seems to
> have
> >the concrete answer as to why it even exists.
>

OK, THAT could make a nice long summer thread.... WhatARE the dice
pools. I agree, certain ones are crucial as gameemchanics, because they
well simulate "agressive" Vs "defensive" tactics- youcould dothesame
thing with TN mods, but TN mods are TO big an effect, often,and also
don't give the same bonus of incresing possible staging. his applies to
ALL the normal pools, all of which can in some way be used for damage
resistance.

> Actually, It was my understanding that Dice Pools represent Natural
> Ability in certain areas...

I thinkthat is SKILL, actually. With high firearms skill, you can pop
off shots without looking that would take plent of pool normally.

> The Combat, Atheltic, and Social Pools (the
> last two are optional pools from SRCo) represents the character's natural
> Aptitude (Ahnold Shwahtzeneagger should easily be able to kick the snot
> out of Pee Wee Herman ...)

Is Ahnolds quickness, intellegence, and willpower that much higher than
Pee Wee's? Maybe, but I think the greater effect is his higher skill,
strenght, and body. More to the point, P can't hurt A. Thatdoesn't
mean P has no ability to focus in combat- he just has no skills to focus
ON.

> while the Magic, and Hacking Pools represent
> the characters supperior knowledge (and in the case of the Hacking Pool,
> supperior resources/natural ability). The Control Pool represents the
> character's supperior reaction time and awareness while rigged as well as
> a few other factors ... All IMO :)

Again, all could as easily represent the trained / technologically
agmented abilty to focus you attention on what you are doing.
Control poolis an interesting example, because those without a VCR
don't even get one. Your reaction time can be almost as good without
one, but you still don't get a pool- I think because you just can't "get
into" the task enough to get the pool.

>
> ><snipped>
> >> Does this seem reasonable? Is it a"problem" that even
needs
> fixing?
> >>The example of mages using combat pool for damage resistance only (and
> >>thus having more availible there than samuria) indicates to me it DOES
> >>need fixing.
>
> >Actually, I don't really think it needs fixing. BUT if I were to have
> to
> >come up with a solution to the problem you posit, I wouldn't use your
> >answer. It isn't an original idea, but I think it would be better then
> to
> >use a single pool for everything.
> >
> >Call it a "Shadow Pool" or something, a group of dice that can be used
> by
> >shadowrunners. Not sure of what it would be, but if you accept that
> pools
> >are a byproduct of focus and concentration, you could make this pool
> >INT+WILL/2 or something.
> >

I don't like that, because it removes the unique effect certain wares
have on certain pools, meaning there is less diffrenece in prefered
wares between riggers, deckeres, and samurai. Its not ludicrous, but it
seems less "accurate". The idea I posed has a similar effect, while
preserving the valuesof the individual pools, so I guess I could go
either way.


> I don't think it needs fixing either ... IMO, the dice pools represent
> very little extra effort ... However, If *I* were to "fix" em, I'd make
> the Dice Pools smaller and make them available in full for every skill
> roll ... but this would get out of hand ... I think they work well enough
> as is :)

You mean make them more like THREAT? Hmm, that might work, although
just a 1 die diffrence would be a bigish edge. Howver, MAGIC DEFENSE
would get thrown out of whack- as it is, mage NPC's really should be run
with magic pools like PC's.

For those who DON'T think full multiple pools are an "unfair edge", I
point out a scenario- Two characters are about to be rushed by a mob.
One is a mage, the other a samurai with a gun.

Both have a complex action beforebeing rushed. The mage casts a spell,
dumping all his magic pool into it (for casting or drain- whichever-
either makes for alikely nasty spell). The Samurai has one higher
Firearms than the mage, to even the karma cost of the spell, and
shoots. He'll either use comabt pool to get good effect (especially if
going for multiple targets), or do less damage than the mage (If the
mage used an area effect, we'll give the samurai a grenades, and the
same still holds genrally true).
OK, now they get rushed, and do HTH combat. Assuming similar stats,
the mage will have more combat pool left than the samurai, meaning he
has more dice to put into hi meelle. WHY? Is he better prepared (the
samuri can drop his gun and do HTH just fine)? Is casting a spell a
less distracting form of offense? Are mages natuarally able to fucus on
more things?
It seems rather dubious to me that the Samurai is less able to fight
HTH than the mage, just because his pervious action was firing a gun or
using some other combat skill as opposed to using a spell.
Message no. 2
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Pool Use
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:05:24 -0500
> Re: Pool Use (was; Summer Time) (Mike Elkins , Wed 17:21)
>
> <Snip: Using one pool should reduce them all>
>
> You are correct. One of those factoids I learned studying cognitive
> science is that the more skilled you are in a task, the less concentration
> it takes.

Well,higher skill means you can do the same job (roll the same
dice)with less pool use- is that what you meant?
This does break down some for magic pool use, at least under SR2
rules..

>
> Wafflemeister's proposed rule is a good compromise between playability and accuracy,
although there are two features I don't like about it. Joe Mage (Magic Pool 8, Combat Pool
3): Spends his full attention dodging lead (spends 3 CP), but can still cast spells with
5MP. or Spends almost no attention on a spell (1MP) and looses a full 1/3 of his combat
pool. (this one isn't so bad, spliting ones > attention is hard).

NO, thats NOT how I wrote my proposal. His one MP die could come "off
the top" of his magic pool, notaffecting combat at all. Only if he uses
more than 5 magic dice would it cutinto his combat pool. Anypool dice
used from a pool of equal or smaller size reduce the other pools sizes.

Think of it this way:

Magic dice o o o o o o o o
Comabt dice o o o

Now, you can pull from the farthest right colum for any action.
Pulling combat would obviouslyaffect both rows- pulling magic usually
would NOT.
(Note that I would proabaly actually DO just this with some dice- I
actually keep special colored dice for my pools physically sitting on my
character sheet. Avoids ANY confusion as to available pool.)


> I can't think of a playable counter-proposal, however. If you don't mind
> doing some math during character creation you could change pools into
> "Cost Per Die".
<SNIP>
> As I said, I don't have a _playable_ alternate proposal.

No, that is NOT playable, and I CAN do math in my head. I just can't
remember multiple muti-digit numbars while trying to figure out sveral
other things; traking availible dicepoints would be a PAIN. :) Its the
right basic effect, but I actually like the effect I gave above (duh-
hence my posting it), especially for its easy "physical representation"
as digramed.


-Mongoose X
Message no. 3
From: Waffelmeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Pool Use
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 02:45:06 -0500
> Re: Pool Use (was; Summer Time) (rabiola , Mon 11:00)
>
Given that, does anybody else find it odd that having multiple
pools essentially makes it BETTER to divide you attention among multiple
task
types? The most common case is the mage who uses his magic pool for
magical offense (and maybe defense) while still getting his whole
combat pool for damage resistance. Why does he get to use ALL of BOTH
pools,
when clearly, his attention is divided? If a samurai (or eventhe same
mage) is using ONLY combat pool, why does he effectively get fewer pool
dice?
>
> What about applying a +2 modifier if trying to use two pools at once?
> Much simpler to implement, and similar to other situations when a
> character is trying to do another thing while already busy with the
> first.

That would make things pretty hard on mages using touch spells (unarmed
combat test needed) and for certain rigging tests (combat pool can be
used for some gunnery, I think). Maybe Its just me, but I find dice
adjustments less troublesomethen TN mods.
-Mongoose

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