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Message no. 1
From: Jerry Hill <agh60070@*******.CC.UCF.EDU>
Subject: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:16:08 -0400
>> Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060?
>> Even with VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion... I
>> figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this is
>> cyberpunk, so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about
>> superpopulation...

>
>We did some semi-educated guesswork about this a few months ago. The
>opinions varied a lot, and I don't remember the eventual outcome, but I do
>know we didn't think it was 30+ billion people.


Well, since I've never seen any canon figures from the people at FASA, I
guess each GM gets to play it by ear. Personally, I've left the world
population fairly low outside of major cities. I figure that two major
plagues, each taking a significant chunk out of the world population, spaced
only a generation or so apart would do a lot to reduce the population of the
world.

I enjoy playing up the huge differences between the city life and that out
in the "sticks". In my little SR universe a small town is usually not
someplace the runners want to stay. The populations are generally hostile
and close knit, and very, very intolerant of strangers messing around.

Areas not claimed by towns or cities tend, in my world, to either be
wilderness or corporate farming intrests of some type (soy, tobacco, real
food, etc). What homesteads there are are forced to either be very
independant or rely closely upon a coropration for protection and supplies.
The awakening has not been kind to those people in my world who try to
strike out on thier own. The only people who do it succesfully also tend to
guard thier success rather closely... and once again not care for
interlopers on thier land, or have much use for stangers in general.

I think my players would really prefer to stay in the cities most of the
time.


Jerry Hill
--------------------------------------------
'Rome wasn't built in a day
but it didn't take long to go up in flames'
- Electric Hellfire Club
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:26:41 +0000
> Well, since I've never seen any canon figures from the people at FASA, I
> guess each GM gets to play it by ear. Personally, I've left the world
> population fairly low outside of major cities. I figure that two major
> plagues, each taking a significant chunk out of the world population, spaced
> only a generation or so apart would do a lot to reduce the population of the
> world.

This is how I play it too.


> Areas not claimed by towns or cities tend, in my world, to either be
> wilderness or corporate farming intrests of some type (soy, tobacco, real

This is backed up a bit (IMO) by the portion of the Lone Star
Sourcebook that mentions that the ?interstate/highway patrol? is
bunch of crazy people because they drive heavily armed vehicles
throughout the Midwest (LS working for NAN? This wasn't clear).
where NO ONE lives.

Of course, this is working off memory, so I could be way off base
with this. If that is the case, then FASA obviously made an error.
If they don't agree with me, hopefully they'll fix it in 3rd edition.
:)

-=SwiftOne=-

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 3
From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:11:49 +0200
Jerry Hill wrote:
>
> Well, since I've never seen any canon figures from the people at FASA, I
> guess each GM gets to play it by ear. Personally, I've left the world
> population fairly low outside of major cities. I figure that two major
> plagues, each taking a significant chunk out of the world population, spaced
> only a generation or so apart would do a lot to reduce the population of the
> world.

But how many people are there actually? That would in fact be
interesting if you figure out how much people the world can deal with
(not counting the expansion of the desserts in)! Then the question of
encountering the space is getting interesting again!

Are there still 3rd world countries on earth? And what about global
warming up? I guess it must at least 3°C warmer than now and that would
mean the soon annihilation of certain coast cities (very large ones). I
think Seattle would be affected too! There must have been a 180° turn of
thinking on evironment and pollution.

NT
Message no. 4
From: JD <germany@*****************.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:40:58 -0600
>Are there still 3rd world countries on earth? And what about global
>warming up? I guess it must at least 3°C warmer than now and that would
>mean the soon annihilation of certain coast cities (very large ones). I
>think Seattle would be affected too! There must have been a 180° turn
of
>thinking on evironment and pollution.
>
> NT

Global warming has never been "proved," in fact, it is one of the most
debated topics in Enviromental Science. Therefore, I do not see that
the world would have changed very much. Some deserts would encroach
upon humnity and some urban centers would reclaim the desert. The same
thing applies here as it does with the ocean in places like The
Netherlands and New Orleans.

As for pollution in general, there is a huge trend to recycle, etc. Why
do you think that this trend would have stopped, or even slowed down?
Many areas are "reclaimed" every year because of these efforts.
Additionally, in one of the NAN books, the Great Ghost Dance "reclaimed"
HUGE amounts of land around Denver.

The world will be similar to what it is now -- some really bad places
and some beautiful wildernesses. All that will change is where they are
located.

Jon Doud
germany@*****************.com
Message no. 5
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:55:19 EST
> Global warming has never been "proved," in fact, it is one of the
> most debated topics in Enviromental Science. Therefore, I do not
> see that the world would have changed very much. Some deserts would
> encroach upon humnity and some urban centers would reclaim the
> desert. The same thing applies here as it does with the ocean in
> places like The Netherlands and New Orleans.

That depends on what you are looking at. Global warming is pretty
much a scientifically accepted fact. A look at Venus alone proves
that. What is debated is:
1) Whether humans have had anything to do with this trend
2) Whether this trend is slippery slope, or if it is a natural cycle
that will correct itself.

> As for pollution in general, there is a huge trend to recycle, etc.

This is just wishful thinking. Yes, there is a recycling trend, but
have you actually looked at how it works? Only a fraction of
plastics are recycled each year, and they are not used to replace
the products they came from. Recycled plastics become Parking curbs,
etc, which are not recycled. Thus, recycling only delays the trip to
the landfill by one cycle. Production and consumption of "virgin"
plastics continues to rise, along with the associated pollution (most
of the pollution associated with plastics comes about from their
production, not their lack of biodegradability).

And that's just one industry.

Regardless of RL, Shadowrun has consistantly portrayed a world where
pollution is REAL common. (Tenochticlan is only one extreme
example...just about every location sourcebook mentions that the
major body of water is toxic sludge...Seattle, CalFreeState, Etc.)
The only locations where pollution isn't prominent is where magic has
been used to clean it up, and that almost always results in "magical
pollution" (Such as the freaky weather in NAN, and the somewhat rabid
forests of Amazonia.)

> Why do you think that this trend would have stopped, or even slowed
> down? Many areas are "reclaimed" every year because of these
> efforts. Additionally, in one of the NAN books, the Great Ghost
> Dance "reclaimed" HUGE amounts of land around Denver.

See above comments. Start counting the amount of "reclaimed" land
versus "lost" land. Note the one-sidedness.

> The world will be similar to what it is now -- some really bad
> places and some beautiful wildernesses. All that will change is
> where they are located.

Also see the info on the "resource rush" of the 90's as described in
the main book. Think about the virus that killed 4/5 of the worlds
population, VITAS, stands for Virally Induced Toxin Allergy
Syndrome...i.e, the prominent toxins around everyone became a little
more lethal to them. Such a virus wouldn't be lethal if Toxins
weren't around.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 6
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:40:03 -0300
Alexander Jenisch escreveu:
>

> Are there still 3rd world countries on earth? And what about global
> warming up? I guess it must at least 3°C warmer than now and that would
> mean the soon annihilation of certain coast cities (very large ones). I
> think Seattle would be affected too! There must have been a 180° turn of
> thinking on evironment and pollution.
>
> NT

From things I read once in a while, I think UCAS itself is a "Third
World
Country (this name is wrong, but...)"... The major "powers" so to speak
(there are no
real national powers in 2060) would be Aztlan, Japan and perhaps the
Amazonian Federation.
I say Federation because I don't buy the idea that all countries of
South America could be
lumped together into one "green nation", even if a dragon wanted it, as
it seems to be the case...
Too many differences between them. A free-trade treaty does exist as of
today, so it could have
expanded to a NATO-style military treaty too.

Ubiratan
Message no. 7
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:22:30 -0500
> Are there still 3rd world countries on earth?

Yes and more of them thanks to the ciystate type enviroment of the Sixth
World

>And what about global warming up? I guess it must at least 3°C warmer
than now and that would
mean the soon annihilation of certain coast cities (very large ones). I
> think Seattle would be affected too! There must have been a 180° turn o=
f
> thinking on evironment and pollution.

I think that global warming wont be as much of a problem... Think about
all of the rampent re-forestation of South and North America, and I'm
guessing that the same will be happening in Africa. I think with the
return of Magic the Earth regained it's "immune system" so to speak, and
is fighiting the sicknesses that are "killing" it. Anyone for a Gaia
Spirit?

-=>Czar


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
-=-=-
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://travel.to/czareggbert.empire
mailto: czregbrt@*********.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
-=-=-
"I lived my life in a ship in a bottle in a world in a glass jar..."
-Mike Fontaine

"CRACK! SMASH! SHATTER!"
-Helen Stunkard
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
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Message no. 8
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:04:37 -0500
----------
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
> Anyone for a Gaia Spirit?

Can anyone say "Great Mother" idol? I knew you could...
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:58:25 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 9:22:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
czregbrt@*********.EDU writes:

> I think that global warming wont be as much of a problem... Think about
> all of the rampent re-forestation of South and North America, and I'm
> guessing that the same will be happening in Africa. I think with the
> return of Magic the Earth regained it's "immune system" so to speak, and
> is fighiting the sicknesses that are "killing" it. Anyone for a Gaia
> Spirit?
>
Been there, met her, nice lady, haven't smoked since.... :)

-K
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:22:24 +0100
Brett Borger said on 17:55/27 Apr 98...

> Regardless of RL, Shadowrun has consistantly portrayed a world where
> pollution is REAL common. (Tenochticlan is only one extreme
> example...just about every location sourcebook mentions that the
> major body of water is toxic sludge...Seattle, CalFreeState, Etc.)

There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the harbor
catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually happened
in some river in the US in the 1960s...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of God and money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 11
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:05:21 +0000
> From things I read once in a while, I think UCAS itself is a "Third
> World
> Country (this name is wrong, but...)"... The major "powers" so to
speak
> (there are no

Actually, that would be "second world", i.e. industrialized. As I
understand it (and this is from American schools, so it's probably
biased), First World countries are usually refered to as the Super
Powers, i.e. the US and the USSR. Second World countries (never
refered to as such) are called Industrialized, and it generally
refers to countries that have wide-spread industrialization but
enough smarts or whatever to not rattle sabers and threaten global
war (excepting certain Middle Eastern countries) so it covers most of
europe, asia, Most of the rest of the Americas, and some of Africa.
Third World countries tend to be characterized by extremly
unbalanced distribution of wealth, highly dependant economies, and
unbalanced distribution of industrialization.

Just what makes a Third world country a third world country is a
matter for intense debate, since poverty, poor economies, and lack of
industrialization all exist in other countries as well. Adding to
the matter is that some groups have started to protest that all/most
attempts to aid these countries have simply increased the division
between rich and poor and increased their dependence on foreign
economies.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 12
From: Nate <nathan.olsen@*******.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:16:05 -0500
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Brett Borger wrote:
> > From things I read once in a while, I think UCAS itself is a "Third
> > World
> > Country (this name is wrong, but...)"... The major "powers" so to
speak
> > (there are no
>
> Actually, that would be "second world", i.e. industrialized. As I
> understand it (and this is from American schools, so it's probably
> biased), First World countries are usually refered to as the Super
> Powers, i.e. the US and the USSR. Second World countries (never
[cybersnip]
actually the way i learned it was that the US and other "western"
industrialized nations make up the 1st world nations. the former USSR and
other "eastern" (meaning communist or non-democratic) industrialized
countries make up the 2nd nation. all the other non-industrialized
countries are 3rd world.

then again i was in 2nd grade or so when i learned this and that was alot
of tequila ago. *shrug*

Wolfchild
--
. . There are nights when the wolves are silent, . .
. _, .. . and only the moon howls. . .. ._, .
, )'' . /\_ . ' ,/\ . , ``( ,
_\__/ |__.'\._______,--;_'_`-.___,.______,/_,_`.__,-.__'__,/`-._,_| \____
,_f_)\. zombie@****.mankato.msus.edu @****.mankato.msus.edu /(_|_,.
http://vax1.mankato.msus.edu/~zombie/www/lynx.htm
Message no. 13
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:35:01 -0500
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>

> There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the harbor
> catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually
happened
> in some river in the US in the 1960s...

IIRC, it was the Ohio, and it caught fire _six times_ before they passed
clean water standards. Six fucking times.
Message no. 14
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:20:43 EDT
In a message dated 4/28/98 5:24:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the harbor
> catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually happened
> in some river in the US in the 1960s...
>
That sounds like good ol' Lake Erie back whenever ... parts of it were so bad,
that someone did happen to toss something into the water and the surface was
so badly coated with crap, it did catch fire (a small part of it at least). I
know of a dozen or more jokes about the Hudson River in New York being that
bad, but with the current being so absolutely torturous, I just don't see them
being able to burn.

-K
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:07:18 EDT
In a message dated 4/28/98 11:00:00 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> > There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the harbor
> > catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually
> happened
> > in some river in the US in the 1960s...
>
> IIRC, it was the Ohio, and it caught fire _six times_ before they passed
> clean water standards. Six fucking times.
>
>
Wow, I never heard of that and I lived on the Illinois River for the first 13
years of my life (oh wow, just realized that number). Born on the banks of
the Mississippi myself...

-K
Message no. 16
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:23:10 EST
> > There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the harbor
> > catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually
> happened
> > in some river in the US in the 1960s...
>
> IIRC, it was the Ohio, and it caught fire _six times_ before they
> passed clean water standards. Six fucking times.

Cool...anybody have source on this I can check? Or at least a closer
date so I can try and look it up?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 17
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:01:29 -0400
At 09:05 AM 4/28/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> From things I read once in a while, I think UCAS itself is a "Third
>> World
>> Country (this name is wrong, but...)"... The major "powers" so to
speak
>> (there are no


Actually, everyone that has commented on Third vs. First World nations is
wrong; or at least using outdated terminology.

Because Second and Third World was difficult to define, because of the
nasty stigma attached to Third World, because of other factors, those terms
are ideally no longer used in political science.

What is now preferred, and much easier to define, is "Developed Nation" and
some variation on the themes of "Underdeveloped Nation" or "Developing
Nation." If you read your newspaper carefully and listen to the news, you
shouldn't have heard "Third World Nation" for a while.

So the UCAS isn't a Third World Nation, not even by the old definitions.
It's a Developed Nation, meaning it has not only strong industry, but also
certain things like developed and fully-realized and enforced system of
law, government, economy, etc.

Countries like Mali in Africa don't have a modern economy, don't have a
system of laws and government that will carry on despite a change in
rulers. So Mali is a Developing Nation. The unspoken implication of
course is that it is on it's way to becoming a Developed Nation.

While I was only a PoliSci Minor back in school, it could have easily been
my major. Got nothin' but A's...

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 18
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:45:03 -0400
> There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the harbor
> catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually happened
> in some river in the US in the 1960s...

The one I remember is Lake Erie catching fire in the late 70's (or at least
a part of it). Read about it ina history book, and of course, they mention
it in the beginning of the Crow.
Message no. 19
From: JD <germany@*****************.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:04:11 -0600
>At 09:05 AM 4/28/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>> From things I read once in a while, I think UCAS itself is a
"Third
>>> World
>>> Country (this name is wrong, but...)"... The major "powers" so
to
speak
>>> (there are no
>
>
>Actually, everyone that has commented on Third vs. First World nations
is
>wrong; or at least using outdated terminology.
>
>Because Second and Third World was difficult to define, because of the
>nasty stigma attached to Third World, because of other factors, those
terms
>are ideally no longer used in political science.
>
>What is now preferred, and much easier to define, is "Developed Nation"
and
>some variation on the themes of "Underdeveloped Nation" or "Developing
>Nation." If you read your newspaper carefully and listen to the news,
you
>shouldn't have heard "Third World Nation" for a while.
>
>So the UCAS isn't a Third World Nation, not even by the old
definitions.
>It's a Developed Nation, meaning it has not only strong industry, but
also
>certain things like developed and fully-realized and enforced system of
>law, government, economy, etc.
>
>Countries like Mali in Africa don't have a modern economy, don't have a
>system of laws and government that will carry on despite a change in
>rulers. So Mali is a Developing Nation. The unspoken implication of
>course is that it is on it's way to becoming a Developed Nation.


Possibly even more important is that a line could be drawn that creates
a North-South division in the world (similar to the East-West division).
I mention this because it is one of the major themes of International
Relations in Political Science today and it probably would not have gone
away. It is a line of the technological (as well as political and
industrial) haves and have-nots. The line is south of Mexico in the
Western Hemisphere and in the Eastern Hemisphere south of Europe
(South/Central Europe may or may not be across the line), north of
Iran/Iraq and south of China. Obviously, Australia is an exception, as
is South Africa, but the Developing World is basically Africa; the
Middle East; Central, South & Southeast Asia and Central & South
America.

While this may not have much bearing on Shadowrun, I do see that the
powers in the future will be based of this idea: The places that have
technology will rule (either through politics or economics), while those
that do not have the tech will be ruled (and possibly abused).

Jon Doud
germany@*****************.com
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:11:40 +0100
Brett Borger said on 9:05/28 Apr 98...

> Actually, that would be "second world", i.e. industrialized. As I
> understand it (and this is from American schools, so it's probably
> biased), First World countries are usually refered to as the Super
> Powers, i.e. the US and the USSR. Second World countries (never
> refered to as such) are called Industrialized

The way it was always explained to me is that the first world is "the
west" (i.e. North America, western Europe, etc.), the third world is all
the poor countries (mostly in Africa and Asia), and the second world is
the rest (not as far developed as the west, but not poor either; this
includes communist countries). However, I have no idea if this is in any
way the "right" explanation.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of God and money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:11:41 +0100
Ereskanti said on 12:20/28 Apr 98...

> > There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the harbor
> > catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually happened
> > in some river in the US in the 1960s...
> >
> That sounds like good ol' Lake Erie back whenever ... parts of it were so bad,
> that someone did happen to toss something into the water and the surface was
> so badly coated with crap, it did catch fire (a small part of it at least).

I don't remember which river it was, all I know is I saw it on a
documentary on TV. I believe somebody tossed a used match into the water,
and then they had to call the fire department :)

It's even worse than the pictures I've seen of a river in this country
covered with a meter-thick layer of foam because a factory producing
non-bio-degradable washing powders dumped its waste into it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of God and money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 22
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:18:49 -0400
Gurth wrote:

> Brett Borger said on 17:55/27 Apr 98...
>
> > Regardless of RL, Shadowrun has consistantly portrayed a world where
> > pollution is REAL common. (Tenochticlan is only one extreme
> > example...just about every location sourcebook mentions that the
> > major body of water is toxic sludge...Seattle, CalFreeState, Etc.)
>
> There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the harbor
> catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually happened
> in some river in the US in the 1960s...
>

That would have to be Cleveland...

--
G.I. Morochnick
The great questions of the day will not be settled by
means of speeches and majority decisions, but by iron and blood.
- Chancellor Otto Van Bismarck
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 23
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:07:32 -0500
----------
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>


> Actually, everyone that has commented on Third vs. First World nations
is
> wrong; or at least using outdated terminology.

If I remember my Anthropology prof from last semester correctly, the First
World is the fully industrialized nations: The US, Japan, and Germany
being major ones. The Second World are the countries with controlled
economies: China and the Old Soviet Union. The third world are nations
that are still largely pre-industrial.
Message no. 24
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@******.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:26:36 -0500
Wow, I never heard of that and I lived on the Illinois River for the first 13
years of my life (oh wow, just realized that number). Born on the banks of
the Mississippi myself...

-K

Yeah, in a pissant white bread town :)

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"Everyone wants to be Cary Grant. Even I want to be Cary Grant."
-- Cary Grant
Message no. 25
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:47:47 -0300
Erik Jameson escreveu:
>
>
> So the UCAS isn't a Third World Nation, not even by the old definitions.
> It's a Developed Nation, meaning it has not only strong industry, but also
> certain things like developed and fully-realized and enforced system of
> law, government, economy, etc.

I heard the terms "Developed/Undeveloped" were applied only to the
economic
aspects, not social ones. If that's so, UCAS (and others) may even be
economically
developed, but socially, they suck. this is a cyberpunk game, after
all...

Ubiratan
Message no. 26
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:24:54 -0300
SwiftOne escreveu:
>
> > From things I read once in a while, I think UCAS itself is a "Third
> > World
> > Country (this name is wrong, but...)"... The major "powers" so to
speak
> > (there are no
>
> Actually, that would be "second world", i.e. industrialized. As I
> understand it (and this is from American schools, so it's probably
> biased),

It IS biased...
The original meaning of Third World was proposed by a man named A.
Sauvy (I think
that's the right name), in the 60's or so, right in the middle of Cold
War. He wanted
to form a "third way" a third group of nations wich were not politically
aligned with
the USSR or USA. In time, this expression's meaning was distorted and
became that
unfounded mistake wich is in most books... There was never a First or
Second World
in the first place.

Ubiratan
Message no. 27
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:37:07 -0400
At 04:07 PM 4/28/98 -0500, you wrote:

>> Actually, everyone that has commented on Third vs. First World nations
>is
>> wrong; or at least using outdated terminology.
>
>If I remember my Anthropology prof from last semester correctly, the First
>World is the fully industrialized nations: The US, Japan, and Germany
>being major ones. The Second World are the countries with controlled
>economies: China and the Old Soviet Union. The third world are nations
>that are still largely pre-industrial.

Ah, I see where you are coming from, and why you and I have a difference.

You are approaching the phrasing from Anthropology.

I was coming at the situation from Political Science.

I suspect that PoliSci has the more leading edge phrasing (and it hasn't
been around that long); Anthropology and many of the other "real" sciences
aren't as quick to adopt new words and phrasings. Political Science on the
other hand seems to have a new buzzword every month or so.

Even still, I'm hard pressed to find the First/Third World phrasings
anymore. Maybe it's just the journalists I read in the LA Times and the
ones I listen to on National Public Radio.

Personally I prefer the PoliSci phrasing; it makes more sense to me. But
even thought my declared entry major was Anthropology (and was since
changed to graduate with Media Arts), I always was and always will be a
Political animal.

But I suppose use whatever phrasing you're most comfortable with.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 28
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:54:49 -0300
JD escreveu:
>
>
> Possibly even more important is that a line could be drawn that creates
> a North-South division in the world (similar to the East-West division).
> I mention this because it is one of the major themes of International
> Relations in Political Science today and it probably would not have gone
> away. It is a line of the technological (as well as political and
> industrial) haves and have-nots. The line is south of Mexico in the
> Western Hemisphere and in the Eastern Hemisphere south of Europe
> (South/Central Europe may or may not be across the line), north of
> Iran/Iraq and south of China. Obviously, Australia is an exception, as
> is South Africa, but the Developing World is basically Africa; the
> Middle East; Central, South & Southeast Asia and Central & South
> America.

Don't quite agree with that thing of industrial have-nots... You see,
many industrially and economically developed countries are in the South.
Brazil, for example, is about the 8th economy in the world. The real
difference lies only in the tech. The "powers" are the ones who create
the
concepts, but many countries manufacture the final products.

> While this may not have much bearing on Shadowrun, I do see that the
> powers in the future will be based of this idea: The places that have
> technology will rule (either through politics or economics), while those
> that do not have the tech will be ruled (and possibly abused).


In the 6th World, megacorps rule. They're such an essential part of
economy
that civilization would fall with them if they went down, and countries
play
a much smaller role in the "world order". I think the only "strong"
nations
would be those totally controled by a corp (i.e. Aztlan).

Ubiratan
Message no. 29
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:47:52 +0000
> > While this may not have much bearing on Shadowrun, I do see that the
> > powers in the future will be based of this idea: The places that have
> > technology will rule (either through politics or economics), while those
> > that do not have the tech will be ruled (and possibly abused).
>
> In the 6th World, megacorps rule. They're such an essential part of
> economy
> that civilization would fall with them if they went down, and countries
> play
> a much smaller role in the "world order". I think the only
"strong"
> nations
> would be those totally controled by a corp (i.e. Aztlan).

Correct. Note that that change is going on today - now it's the
corporations that have the tech, not the nations - it just seems that
way because the 1th world countries incidentally also house the prime
corporations.


--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 30
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:48:01 EDT
In a message dated 4/28/98 7:28:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
neon@******.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU writes:

> Wow, I never heard of that and I lived on the Illinois River for the first
13
> years of my life (oh wow, just realized that number). Born on the banks of
> the Mississippi myself...
>
> -K
>
> Yeah, in a pissant white bread town :)
>
Be careful there Michael, that "Loaf" you call home ain't all that much
better.... :P

-K
Message no. 31
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:56:32 -0400
At 06:47 PM 4/28/98 -0300, you wrote:

> I heard the terms "Developed/Undeveloped" were applied only to the
>economic
>aspects, not social ones. If that's so, UCAS (and others) may even be
>economically
>developed, but socially, they suck. this is a cyberpunk game, after
>all...

That's a total judgement call.

Honestly, it is. It's nigh unto impossible to come up with clear and
definitive methods of "scoring" a society. And the only clear ways to
really do that are essentially based in economics.

As far as I know, there is no such thing in modern political science as a
way to rate one society against another based purely on how "advanced" that
society is.

The only hard numbers that can possibly be used are economics, especially
since those are really the only numbers that mean the same thing to each
and every nation.

As for this being a cyberpunk game, I agree. It's not anywhere near as bad
as CP 2020 though, so a discussion of Developed/Developing nations has some
amount of relevance.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 32
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:57:11 -0400
At 02:04 PM 4/28/98 -0600, you wrote:

>While this may not have much bearing on Shadowrun, I do see that the
>powers in the future will be based of this idea: The places that have
>technology will rule (either through politics or economics), while those
>that do not have the tech will be ruled (and possibly abused).

Actually, this does have some relevance.

Those countries that are third world/developing/backward don't have a leg
to stand on really to resist the megacorps. Most in fact are so desperate
to be a Developed Nation that they made it as easy as possible for
corporations to invest in Africa/South America/Asia. Some of that was
relaxed pollution controls...

I think in SR 205x, a large majority of factories for major corporations,
especially the megas, are in what are termed Developing/Third World
Nations. Think about it. Not only is labor dirt cheap (and sometimes
slave labor is possible), the local government is too weak to do anything
to you and you can pretty much pollute all you want as long as you don't
get too nasty or too loud. You could argue that even a big nation like the
UCAS can't change megacorporate policy, but in that case, the UCAS can
raise such a ruckus it becomes bad for public image and stock value. Tiny
nation in Africa can't have that same affect.

So there is still a definite division between nations, much as there is
now. It's just in SR 205x that the megacorps call most of the shots.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 33
From: Matthew Waddilove <m_waddilove@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:28:59 PDT
Gurth <gurth@******.NL> Said
>
>Brett Borger said on 17:55/27 Apr 98...
>
>> Regardless of RL, Shadowrun has consistantly portrayed a world where
>> pollution is REAL common. (Tenochticlan is only one extreme
>> example...just about every location sourcebook mentions that the
>> major body of water is toxic sludge...Seattle, CalFreeState, Etc.)
>
>There's a mention in the Seattle Sourcebook (IIRC) of part of the
harbor
>catching fire -- the water, that is, not the docks. This actually
happened
>in some river in the US in the 1960s...
>

Not To mention the reactor meltdown that created the Barrens if I
remember right (although I might have it completely wrong but that
wouldn't be untypical ;) )

-Matthew Waddilove

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 34
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@******.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:11:54 -0500
> Wow, I never heard of that and I lived on the Illinois River for the first
13
> years of my life (oh wow, just realized that number). Born on the banks of
> the Mississippi myself...
>
> -K
>
> Yeah, in a pissant white bread town :)
>
Be careful there Michael, that "Loaf" you call home ain't all that much
better.... :P

-K

Actually, it's worse...the Midwest sucks, which is the true reason there's
never been a sourcebook other than Chicago done about it.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"Everyone wants to be Cary Grant. Even I want to be Cary Grant."
-- Cary Grant
Message no. 35
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@******.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:18:04 -0500
Not To mention the reactor meltdown that created the Barrens if I
remember right (although I might have it completely wrong but that
wouldn't be untypical ;) )

Well, Hell's Kitchen was created by a volcano's lava flow.

Remember, duck and cover. :)

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"Everyone wants to be Cary Grant. Even I want to be Cary Grant."
-- Cary Grant
Message no. 36
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:18:27 -0300
Fade escreveu:
>
>
> Correct. Note that that change is going on today - now it's the
> corporations that have the tech, not the nations - it just seems that
> way because the 1th world countries incidentally also house the prime
> corporations.

And import brains from the other countries to develop it :)

Ubiratan
Message no. 37
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:08:09 -0300
Erik Jameson escreveu:
>
> At 06:47 PM 4/28/98 -0300, you wrote:
>

>
> That's a total judgement call.
>
> Honestly, it is. It's nigh unto impossible to come up with clear and
> definitive methods of "scoring" a society. And the only clear ways to
> really do that are essentially based in economics.

The economic and social aspects of a nation can be quite different
from one another.
I know this, I live in such a country :) .

> As far as I know, there is no such thing in modern political science as a
> way to rate one society against another based purely on how "advanced" that
> society is.

"Advanced" in wich aspect? Socially?
I heard the UN was coming up with something called Human Development
Index,
a measure os how well the population of a country lives...

> The only hard numbers that can possibly be used are economics, especially
> since those are really the only numbers that mean the same thing to each
> and every nation.
>
> As for this being a cyberpunk game, I agree. It's not anywhere near as bad
> as CP 2020 though, so a discussion of Developed/Developing nations has some
> amount of relevance.


I make my game every bit as bad, perhaps more, with magic added to
the equation :) .

Ubiratan
Message no. 38
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:22:33 -0400
At 09:08 PM 4/29/98 -0300, you wrote:

>> As far as I know, there is no such thing in modern political science as a
>> way to rate one society against another based purely on how "advanced"
that
>> society is.
>
> "Advanced" in wich aspect? Socially?
> I heard the UN was coming up with something called Human Development
>Index,
>a measure os how well the population of a country lives...

Ah, but what is that Human Development Index going to be measured against?
Almost certainly things like standard of living, average wage, poverty
line, that sort of thing. Which is all economics.

Other items like crime rates and amount of leisure time spent are difficult
to really mean the same thing to every nation; those things would have to
be a very complex formula and would likely be found to be unfair by any
number of nations.

So the core numbers for that Index are almost certainly based in some way
upon economics.

But since the economics of a nation will be a major, if not the biggest,
determining factor in the social development of a nation, it's not *that*
far off from what if really desired.

See, there's all sort of ways to measure human and societal progress, but
all of these methods are either badly flawed or are specialized means of
measurement and can't be applied to other tests. Us humans are just a bit
more squiggly than nice binary numbers.

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 39
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Populations (was Re: Mages and Space)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:11:20 -0300
Erik Jameson escreveu:
>
>
>
> See, there's all sort of ways to measure human and societal progress, but
> all of these methods are either badly flawed or are specialized means of
> measurement and can't be applied to other tests. Us humans are just a bit
> more squiggly than nice binary numbers.
>
>
Agreed. No means of comparison are perfect, and that 1st/2nd/3rd
world stuff is
specially flawed, since it was not created by specialists it's just a
distortion
some guy made and got taught in every school in the world.

Ubiratan

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