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Message no. 1
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: potential ...
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 11:28:28 +6000
Subject: Potential advancement -- cash/karma
(could someone change the subject heading?)


Eve wrote:
> Something I've noticed is that magical types have a lot more potential
> for advancement in some games. Because you can spend Karma to buy new
> abilities and stuff; whereas if you're a cyber-type, what you really
> need to buy new abilities is cash.
> You can usually go out and get Karma doing just about any run;
> but stuff that pays in nice nuyen is not so easy to find. If you're
> a mage, and you're low on cash, you're probably OK; you've got
> spells, and fetishes aren't too expensive. If you're a rigger with your
> modded Westwind in the shop, facing a buttload of expensive repairs
> because of that last nasty battle, or, even worse, if the Westwind got
> totalled, you're almost SOL.

This is our riggers problem she is an elvish rigger/decker and is currently
120,000 in debt -- ouch. mostly to other players but also owes local
mafia 40,000. makes for a good, quick on going plot :) also I don't have
to worry about her turning jobs down :)


> Once you get Karma, the options for a mundane are pretty simple;
> buy stats, or buy skills. This gets expensive and kinda silly, as you
> save up Karma so you can buy Motorcycle at 10. If you're a mage, though,
> wow! Do you buy spells? Do you increase stats? Skills? Do you initiate?
> Get an ally? Make some new spells? Bond a focus? Go on an astral quest?
> Get a quickening or a spell lock? Something else?
> I've played in games where there was a lot of cash and little
> karma, and games with a lot of karma and little cash. Mages don't have
> near as much use for money, it seems, as people with tech stuff that
> needs upkeep.

well it depends on the mage - mine is into electronics
and uses alot of money on communication/surveillance gear and
paying off the riggers debts.

> I can't think of any real solution to this... just my thoughts
> on the matter.

well good thinking, I agree with what you say, but it doesn't need a
solution as it tends to encourage people to go on runs for what they need
be it karma or cash, and good roleplaying/development to deal with
the surplus of what you don't need. mundanes can start considering new
skills - while mages can look towards interests to spend spare cash on.
Look at why the character runs the shadows, if they have an excess of
money or karma why do they still do it?, maybe mages should retire from
shadowrunning
earlier than sams? that would remove high powered mages.

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 2
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 06:22:14 -0700
Well, it's great if lack of money and or karma encourages you to
go on runs. (and frankly, IMHO, I don't think you can ever have
so much of either that you'd turn down more. :) ) BUT it's less
great if you are so low on resources that you CAN'T effectively
go on a run. My rigger never managed to get into debt, but there
were times when he was running with really substandard equipment,
and he suffered for it. Whereas the mages never had this problem;
once they spent their karma, it stayed spent and they kept whatever
they bought; they didn't have somebody with an autocannon shoot
holes in it.
Yes, you've got to dangle a carrot for your players, but
you've got to keep them fed well enough that they can chase it.
Maybe keep this in mind, at least to try an eliminate that old
Shadowrun-Is-Mage-Biased-Wah kinda feeling down.

Or to equalize things, blow up some of the mages' toys too. Not sure
how this is done but I suppose it's probably trickier than totalling
a Blitzen...

-E
Message no. 3
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 15:50:42 GMT
Eve Forward writes (trimmed)

> , at least to try an eliminate that old
> Shadowrun-Is-Mage-Biased-Wah kinda feeling down.
>
How do you get this poblem, ok at power levels in the hundreds of
karma its obvious readingthe rules that magicians have no limit and i
can do some really evil things with the magic system but note:
My problem was with a mage how to keep up with the merc:
firearms 8 combatpool 10 , wired reflexes 2
ok simple action 1
badguy 1: 8 + 2 pool, smart deficance supershock taser, target
number = 2, thats about 8 success, now Mr target thats a 10S stun
half impast armour, oh you fell over, what a suprise, target two , 16
dice target 4 repeats treatment.

Just try getting enough power to do that as assuradly to two targets
at close range with magic, noting that an area effect spell in a
building is gonna get you as well, possible to take em down but not
with that level of certainty. And that Mercs only using the main
book!, ok the number of dice only got that good by the time i could
drop a 6D on two folks at the same time with magic for no drain but
that was needing thier willpower, 4 - 6 on about 4 dice per target,
can we say 1 to 2 successes, not half as certain to knock both
targets down.

[using abilities of aome old PC's for example]

> Or to equalize things, blow up some of the mages' toys too. Not sure
> how this is done but I suppose it's probably trickier than totalling
> a Blitzen...
>
Focus disopsal is the equivalent, just not worth the effort usually,
why bash the magicians focus in when you could hit him/her usually
far more effective at taking the magician down. Yes riggers do tend
to get it bad, probably because drones are hard and GM's know they
can blow em up and they will not kill the character, try getting a
team cash pool together to cover group cost.

Sams, merc e.t.c. want someone to cover ammo, mage to cover
elementals, and rigger need to cover lost drones, ok some PC's will
lose most of the time on this but the overall effectiveness should
help minimise losses overall and might well save money. Getting this
one set up fully in practice though is a bind, i used to run with a
group that had it sorted for hospital bills, fortunately we didn't
tend to loose drones or many spirts so never sorted that one
properly.

> -E
>

Mark
Message no. 4
From: "Mark D. Fender" <mfender@******.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:41:32 -0500
On Wed, 19 Apr 1995, Eve Forward wrote:

> Well, it's great if lack of money and or karma encourages you to
> go on runs. (and frankly, IMHO, I don't think you can ever have
> so much of either that you'd turn down more. :) ) BUT it's less
> great if you are so low on resources that you CAN'T effectively
> go on a run. My rigger never managed to get into debt, but there
> were times when he was running with really substandard equipment,
> and he suffered for it. Whereas the mages never had this problem;
> once they spent their karma, it stayed spent and they kept whatever
> they bought; they didn't have somebody with an autocannon shoot
> holes in it.
> Yes, you've got to dangle a carrot for your players, but
> you've got to keep them fed well enough that they can chase it.
> Maybe keep this in mind, at least to try an eliminate that old
> Shadowrun-Is-Mage-Biased-Wah kinda feeling down.

Never, in all my years playing SR (since thta glorious day the Blue Book
arrived in stores) have I ever heard anyone complain about how SR is mage
biased. Sure, they get the spellls. But in Character Creation, they
suck! I've had so street smmies get jealous of some of the spells they
had, but once the mage offered to share, they were quite happy. Besides,
the sammies were already protecting the mage's butt because the mage was
slow, had no skill points, was weak, and couldn't afford an Ares
Assault. It's a bitch making a mage and very rarely does it turn out the
way you want it.

>
> Or to equalize things, blow up some of the mages' toys too. Not sure
> how this is done but I suppose it's probably trickier than totalling
> a Blitzen...
>
> -E
>
Message no. 5
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 12:12:47 -0500
>Or to equalize things, blow up some of the mages' toys too. Not sure
>how this is done but I suppose it's probably trickier than totalling
>a Blitzen...

Essense draining situations are always good for that. The magical
equivalent of having your vehicle shot all to hell. Only it's harder to repair.

A ward can nail foci and locks. Attacking a focus/lock astrally does all
kinds of things. Even a low force elemental or spirit moves FAST in the
astral, faster than almost any mage and plenty fast enough to raze a couple
toys before the magician got around to dealing with it. Best way to get rid
of those things is to simply look at how much they're worth. Their value
alone makes magical items of any sort prime targets for thieves of all
sizes. Of course, a hyped-up Westwind is going to draw a few looks, but you
can't hide that in an overcoat as you sneak out the door.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 6
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 10:55:06 -0700
>X-Sender: topcat@**.cencom.net
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>Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 12:12:47 -0500
>Reply-To: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@*****.NIC.SURFNET.NL>
>Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@*****.NIC.SURFNET.NL>
>From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
>Subject: Re: potential ...
>To: Multiple recipients of list SHADOWRN <SHADOWRN@*****.NIC.SURFNET.NL>
>
>>Or to equalize things, blow up some of the mages' toys too. Not sure
>>how this is done but I suppose it's probably trickier than totalling
>>a Blitzen...
>
>Essense draining situations are always good for that. The magical
>equivalent of having your vehicle shot all to hell. Only it's
harder to repair.
>
>A ward can nail foci and locks. Attacking a focus/lock astrally
does all
>kinds of things. Even a low force elemental or spirit moves FAST in the
>astral, faster than almost any mage and plenty fast enough to raze
a couple
>toys before the magician got around to dealing with it. Best way
to get rid
>of those things is to simply look at how much they're worth.
Their value
>alone makes magical items of any sort prime targets for thieves of all
>sizes. Of course, a hyped-up Westwind is going to draw a few
looks, but you
>can't hide that in an overcoat as you sneak out the door.
>
Thieving a foci or lock I think would be a little harden than it looks
(unless it is left just lying around). If it's not just lying
around it's prob.
on someone. Ok - if it's not active - no prob. - simply lift the
item from
the person an viola, but if it's active... -
First of all - an active item is not visable to the mundane eye.
Thus the
thief needs to be a PhysicalAdept or a Mage.
Secondly - I don't know if there is a ruling on if an active item
is even physical.
Third - Once you take the item from a mage (if you can
take it) it'll have a
direct link to the caster (an astral thread).
unless you deactivate it.
and the only way to deactive it is to either
be of the same shamantic
totem or hermitic mage (group ?don't
remember?) or to cast a new
spell into it and bind it. At which point
the mage will know
immediately (if he didn't already).
Lastly - remember stealing a car,drone,etc... - your
stealing a money
equivelance (+pride and whatever work went
into it).
stealing a focus or lock you are also
destroying any and all karma
that went into binding that item. (a spell
lock - no big deal, a force
3 power focus/weapon focus - and your putting
a major hurt on that
person) (*yea yea so I'm soft hearted* - I
just know I wouldn't like it)

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 7
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 19:39:46 GMT
> <Concerning magical foci etc.>...Best way to get rid
> of those things is to simply look at how much they're worth. Their value
> alone makes magical items of any sort prime targets for thieves of all
> sizes. Of course, a hyped-up Westwind is going to draw a few looks, but you
> can't hide that in an overcoat as you sneak out the door.

One player ran a private detective. The Shortest Investigation in History (tm):

PC Shaman "Why did those men steal my Rating 6 power focus that was worth over
a million newyen?"
Detective "Because it was worth over a million newyen!"

And he got the fee up front, too. ;-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Potential...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 15:59:45 -0700
In regards to "hosing" magic using individuals, one concept that I haven't
seen bandied about yet was the vulnerability of libraries. Take the
recommended course and make ones over Rating 4 VERY unique.
Someone will always be looking to boost it. Admittedly more of a problem
for hermetics than shamans. On the other hand, how long does it take to
properly attune a lodge, and how susceptible is it to defilement, for lack
of a better phase. It becomes a place that can be staked out, and the
owning shaman can be waxed, coming or going. A serious weakness
for a shadowrunner who has to not be predictable. In addition, if you
start making magic materials harder to come by, that also puts a check on
magic usage. Or, even better, it sends the runners into the wilderness.

On the point that was raised about foci not being worth the trouble to
dispose of, I disagree. Spell locks (truely annoying items) can be done
away with readily by using watchers, and when they're gone, it
changes the balance of an encounter. I have run into (munchkin)players
who've sculpted their characters and known spells around having locks.
Puff, fragged character. In addition to the possible joy of ridding a PC of
a focus, the attack will generally re"focus" the PC's attention, not
allowing the magic support that was part of the team's tactic.
Message no. 9
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 17:14:39 -0500
>Never, in all my years playing SR (since thta glorious day the Blue Book
>arrived in stores) have I ever heard anyone complain about how SR is mage
>biased. Sure, they get the spellls. But in Character Creation, they
>suck! I've had so street smmies get jealous of some of the spells they
>had, but once the mage offered to share, they were quite happy. Besides,
>the sammies were already protecting the mage's butt because the mage was
>slow, had no skill points, was weak, and couldn't afford an Ares
>Assault. It's a bitch making a mage and very rarely does it turn out the
>way you want it.

How long you been on this list, Mark? (I ask because we had a hell of an
argument over mage-bias not long ago)

The game is mage-biased (at least power-wise) in a HUGE way (author of the
post would like to point out that he said GAME not SHADOWRN LISTMEMBERS).
Re-read the rules concerning magicians and see if you can't see that
yourself. I, personally, have fought a strict mage-vs-samurai fight. I
won. I was the mage. I was invisible (improved, no less... and locked) and
I cast control actions (fetish exclusive, expendable fetish... plus a
manipulation focus 2) from a range of 1 kilometer (goggles with x20 mag).
Drain threw me for a little loop, but the sight of the opponent putting his
LMG's barrel between his lips made the effort worth every bit...

In case you thought that was munchkinous... it is. It was a battle of
munchkins and the mage is better at it. So are they weaker? Nope, they're
quite a bit stronger if played within their limits. If your campaign is a
John Woo film in the making, then the mage will probably be at a
disadvantage. Otherwise they'll be pretty impressive.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
"Founder of the Mohicans/Street Samurai... formerly Last of the
Mohicans/Street Samurai... One of the few fighters for samurai rights!"
Message no. 10
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 18:42:18 -0500
Gary Carroll writes...

Gary>Thieving a foci or lock I think would be a little harden than it looks
(unless it is left just lying around). If it's not just lying around it's
prob. On someone. Ok - if it's not active - no prob. - simply lift the item
from the person and viola, but if it's active...

Then it's active. It glows like a flare on the astral and looks like
whatever it looks like to mundanes. SR II pg. 137 under the heading "FOCI"
- "To a mundane, a focus appears to be whatever it looks like or is made
from." Spell locks, on the other hand, do in fact "disappear" as far as
mundanes are concerned once they are active. They can't see, touch or
effect it (see pg 138 SR II).

Gary>First of all - an active item is not visable to the mundane eye. Thus
the thief needs to be a PhysicalAdept or a Mage.

See above...

Gary>Secondly - I don't know if there is a ruling on if an active item is
even physical.

See above...

Gary>Third - Once you take the item from a mage (if you can take it) it'll
have a direct link to the caster (an astral thread) unless you deactivate
it. And the only way to deactive it is to either be of the same shamantic
totem or hermitic mage (group ?don't remember?) or to cast a new spell into
it and bind it. At which point the mage will know immediately (if he didn't
already).

Yep, it will. Unless you deactivate or bond it. And you don't have to be
of the same group when it comes to foci. That's a spell lock thing again.
Don't need to cast any spells at all on any other focus. And sure the
mage'll know it once it gets rebonded or deactivated (assuming he's running
around with an astral flare going, most runners leave their foci off when
just kicking back), and it'll suck that much more to know for sure that the
focus is someone else's baby now...

Gary>Lastly - remember stealing a car,drone,etc... - your stealing a money
equivelance (+pride and whatever work went into it). Stealing a focus or
lock you are also destroying any and all karma that went into binding that
item. (a spell lock - no big deal, a force 3 power focus/weapon focus - and
your putting a major hurt on that person) (*yea yea so I'm soft hearted* - I
just know I wouldn't like it)

Money is just as valuable if not more so to a rigger than karma is to a
spell-user (got in trouble over the word mage once... won't do that again).
Street prices on rigger stuff is phenomenally high! You don't have to spend
4 times the karma to bond a spell focus you just picked up off a black
market talismonger, do you? And ask a rigger if he minds the guy driving
off in his new Saab Dynamit more or less than the guy running off with a
magician friend's spell focus?

Losing a focus, losing essence, etc... it all balances with losing drones,
paying for repairs, etc. And you have to maintain a solid balance or things
can get out of hand quick. If you let one side go on unhindered... the
other sides will get pissed, the unhindered side will get too powerful for
game balance, the other sides will all start making up new characters so
that they too can be one of the unhindered. If the players see that each
side has their advantages and disadvantages, then they'll choose which they
feel best suits them and roleplaying as a whole can only benefit from that.

Overall, it sucks to lose things. Be it money, karma, vehicles, foci,
etc... But it's one of the facts of shadow-life. The GM giveth and the GM
taketh away, Fickle Fickle GM... It makes what they have worth more to the
players. Give it a thought or two... you don't have to change, these are
only my opinions and thoughts.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 11
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 18:10:50 -0700
Hmm... maybe you never met the mages I met. True, they were pretty
established, but they hit harder, acted faster, and were harder to
hit than most of our Combat Dudes. If you know how to make and how
to advance a mage correctly, you have the nastiest puppy you could want.
I seem to recall, last January when this debate was running then,
someone said something like "Look, in the Sixth World, magic is Power.
Get used to the idea. Mages kick ass." or something.

A starting mage has his limits, but once you get up in Karma (which
is what this topic is about; "potential", get it?) well...

Personally, I think y'all just are arguing with me out of force of
habit because of that old Insect Spirit thing. ;)

-E
Message no. 12
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: potential
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:56:05 +6000
> Hmm... maybe you never met the mages I met. True, they were pretty
> established, but they hit harder, acted faster, and were harder to
> hit than most of our Combat Dudes. If you know how to make and how
> to advance a mage correctly, you have the nastiest puppy you could want.
> I seem to recall, last January when this debate was running then,
> someone said something like "Look, in the Sixth World, magic is Power.
> Get used to the idea. Mages kick ass." or something.

Yes they can if unchecked. Another way to keep them down is that most
people don't like mages as they kick ass etc.. can do thinks you wish
they couldn't or wish you could. Up the level of hostility towards
mages (and shamans). Combine the 'take out the mage first' attitude
with giving them disadvantages in negotiations against mage hostile
contacts and their life can be much more difficult. So if they are
going to become powerful they're really gonna earn it :)

> A starting mage has his limits, but once you get up in Karma (which
> is what this topic is about; "potential", get it?) well...

My current game is not really mage biased as combined with my above
comments, we keep karma low and this effects the mages/shamans more
than the mundanes but I can see that further on the mage/shamans are
gonna come out with an advantage. It helps to keep them down with
taking out foci, quickenings etc and before a mage gets too good an
Nth level initiate they should have suffered some magic loss.

I'm taking it easier on the rigger, it's too easy too take out a vehicle
or drone to keep their cash down and keep a tap on their power.
similarly sam's can have cyberware malfunction if their getting too
powerful, or have a botched implant/surgery. But the physad is the
only way to stem his power magic loss? it seems a little drastic at the
moment, so he has more of the usual paying to set up new identity and
lifestyle. Its low karma and easy come -- easy go on the money, thats
the name of our game

> Personally, I think y'all just are arguing with me out of force of
> habit because of that old Insect Spirit thing. ;)

US!?! would WE do such a thing as that? :)

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:27:47 +0200
>First of all - an active item is not visable to the mundane eye.
>Thus the
> thief needs to be a PhysicalAdept or a Mage.

You could send a spirit to get it as well. And the item isn't invisible,
it's "just" that the mundanes' minds blank it out.

>Secondly - I don't know if there is a ruling on if an active item
>is even physical.

Yes it is. The mind doesn't _want_ to notice it, which in turn means you
can't affect it. But it is still there.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I used to think that today would never come
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 14
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:13:33 +0200
> >Or to equalize things, blow up some of the mages' toys too. Not sure
> >how this is done but I suppose it's probably trickier than totalling
> >a Blitzen...
>
> Essense draining situations are always good for that. The magical
> equivalent of having your vehicle shot all to hell. Only it's harder to repair.

Are you out of your mind !!! Essence drain is permanent !

> A ward can nail foci and locks.

This is a very nice solution.

> Attacking a focus/lock astrally does all
> kinds of things. Even a low force elemental or spirit moves FAST in the
> astral, faster than almost any mage and plenty fast enough to raze a couple
> toys before the magician got around to dealing with it.

Well they are not that fast, they have a slight advantage but that is only
good if their force is high enough. But on the whole you are right a
spirit on a suicide mission would get a couple of locks before geting fried.
OTOH a mage that goes around with his locks turned on and not watching
the astral for intruders deservers everything you care to through at him.

> Best way to get rid
> of those things is to simply look at how much they're worth. Their value
> alone makes magical items of any sort prime targets for thieves of all
> sizes. Of course, a hyped-up Westwind is going to draw a few looks, but you
> can't hide that in an overcoat as you sneak out the door.

This is quite true, but you'll also have to consider that no mage
"advertises" the presence/rating/cost of his foci, whereas as you
pointed out a Westwind is very hard to conceal :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 15
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:33:26 +0200
> Hmm... maybe you never met the mages I met. True, they were pretty
> established, but they hit harder, acted faster, and were harder to
> hit than most of our Combat Dudes. If you know how to make and how
> to advance a mage correctly, you have the nastiest puppy you could want.
> I seem to recall, last January when this debate was running then,
> someone said something like "Look, in the Sixth World, magic is Power.
> Get used to the idea. Mages kick ass." or something.

Mages can be prety powerfull, but they can never have the sheer
destructive power of a combat gumby. When it comes to guting, maiming
blowing things up as generally hurting people - sammies/(optimised
PAs for HTH :) rule.

Well we have to separate two things here, toe-toe fights and
all around generall agression. Mages naturaly have the advantage
when they are kilometers away and can cast anything they want, but
that is not because mages are more powerfull its because their
opponent cant do anything about it. Now put a mage in the targets
position and put a sniper on him from a couple of kilometers
away *evil grin*. How does that look like ?

The power of magic is its versatility, not its potential for
destruction.

> A starting mage has his limits, but once you get up in Karma (which
> is what this topic is about; "potential", get it?) well...

Only a VERY expereinced mage could outdo you average sammie in
a toe-to-toe combat. And a character with that much karma should
get retired anyway.

> Personally, I think y'all just are arguing with me out of force of
> habit because of that old Insect Spirit thing. ;)

Well no, I think that we agree most of the time, we agreed on the
auto-fire thread didnt we :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 16
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 14:07:30 +0200
> Gary>Lastly - remember stealing a car,drone,etc... - your stealing a money
> equivelance (+pride and whatever work went into it). Stealing a focus or
> lock you are also destroying any and all karma that went into binding that
> item. (a spell lock - no big deal, a force 3 power focus/weapon focus - and
> your putting a major hurt on that person) (*yea yea so I'm soft hearted* - I
> just know I wouldn't like it)
>
> Money is just as valuable if not more so to a rigger than karma is to a
> spell-user (got in trouble over the word mage once... won't do that again).
> Street prices on rigger stuff is phenomenally high! You don't have to spend
> 4 times the karma to bond a spell focus you just picked up off a black
> market talismonger, do you?

Of course you do, when bonding a focus not built by you you have to
pay the full bonding kost 5x rating for power foci. No mage worth his
salt would go and do such a thing when he can built his own.

> And ask a rigger if he minds the guy driving
> off in his new Saab Dynamit more or less than the guy running off with a
> magician friend's spell focus?

Your enemies canot use the SAAB to blast you and your buddies to hell
and back :)

> Losing a focus, losing essence, etc... it all balances with losing drones,
> paying for repairs, etc. And you have to maintain a solid balance or things
> can get out of hand quick.

Loosing a focus could be used to balance things out, although
particularly powerfull foci can be irreplacable. But loosing essence
is final and irrevocable, its definitely out of the question.
If you want to hit a magician kill his locks (if he is dumb enough
to use any) and his quickenings (even worst). Steal some item that
can be used as a ritual link (or some blood/DNA) and watch him
sweat :) Make that nature spirit he used last week as a grounding-gate
call its big brother. Burn his library, defile his medicine lodge,
have a cleaning crew sweep the floor were he keeps his hermetic
circles :) make his superiors in his magical group real assholes,
set some corp after his talent (after all he IS such an acomplished
practitioner of the arts :) give his ally an attitude, make his
watchers total nitwits... Well I think you get the idea :)

> Overall, it sucks to lose things. Be it money, karma, vehicles, foci,
> etc... But it's one of the facts of shadow-life. The GM giveth and the GM
> taketh away, Fickle Fickle GM... It makes what they have worth more to the
> players. Give it a thought or two... you don't have to change, these are
> only my opinions and thoughts.

Your right, but some things are far too valuable to loose...

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 17
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:21:51 +6000
Jani wrote:
>> Huh? You put a low priority on Attributes, make Will high, buy a couple
>> of spell locks, and lock Increase Reaction and Willpower. Etc. etc.
>
> Yeah and loose then in the first 5 minutes of play :) There are
> a lot of weird mage-dudes flying the astral you know.

Are those the ones who rely on spel locks, or those who take them out
for amusement.

>>> It's a bitch making a mage and very rarely does it turn out the
>>> way you want it.
>
> I fully agree, but thats the price for versatility. The system is
> fine as it is.

Thats right, but you can get some rather nice characters if you do it just
right. (I said nice not powerful, by nice I mean all the different aspects
that make up the character fit together well to make a good shadowrunner.)

> Well both our mage players think that the char gen system forces
> the players to make one dimentional mages - but as I said thats the
> price you pay for all that versatility. Do sammies complain about
> their cyberpsychosys :)

It does tend to but it is possible to make a different style of mage/shaman
I like to think mine was more than one dimensional. Judging from what I
hear of others mine is damn unique, but I like it that way.

>> And once they start Initiating ... !

> Why would anyone want to initiate beyond grade 0 anyway. It costs
> LOADS of karma and all you get for it is masking. Why not just
> increase your attributes/skills... ?

I tend to agree, it is overrated, My shaman is still not initiated
though he tends to soon (and would go no higher than 1 or 2) most
of the metamagic cost karma - quickening, anchoring. These have similar
disadvantages to spell lock (ie how to burn karma) leaving masking,
centering, shielding and access to metaplanes.
Masking, centering and metaplane access do not really improve much beyond
obtaining them at grade 0. Shielding is useful but is equal to
magic pool + grade I think so I can increase that by concentrating on
sorcery (I have 7 now) and obtaining a power focus. I agree level 3
is better than level 1 but not for the karma spent.

Jani wrote:
>> Essense draining situations are always good for that. The magical
>> equivalent
of having your vehicle shot all to hell. Only it's harder
>> to Repair.
>
> Are you out of your mind !!! Essence drain is permanent !

As is magic loss. But they are still a viable means of stemming a
PC's power albeit a rather drastic means. The sort of thing you'd
keep for reserve (or use against a munchkin) I'd love to hear of a
non-permanent loss (other than foci) as essence/magic loss is the
the only thing to really affect physads

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 18
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:24:09 +0200
> >> Huh? You put a low priority on Attributes, make Will high, buy a couple
> >> of spell locks, and lock Increase Reaction and Willpower. Etc. etc.
> >
> > Yeah and loose then in the first 5 minutes of play :) There are
> > a lot of weird mage-dudes flying the astral you know.
>
> Are those the ones who rely on spel locks, or those who take them out
> for amusement.

Those who take them out for amusement.

> >>> It's a bitch making a mage and very rarely does it turn out the
> >>> way you want it.
> >
> > I fully agree, but thats the price for versatility. The system is
> > fine as it is.
>
> Thats right, but you can get some rather nice characters if you do it just
> right. (I said nice not powerful, by nice I mean all the different aspects
> that make up the character fit together well to make a good shadowrunner.)

Agreed. You know there is a funny thing about SR, all the players/GMs
I know complain that all their characters look alike, but everyone
has a different "connstant mental image". Everyone values some aspect
of a character above else, so they tend to put it as a highest priority
thus giving them the same character over and over again.
I for example could not play a mage with less than 10 spells :)
so I always take resources as the highest possible priority, thusly
forcing myself to get shity attributes (skill points are no problem).
I could get say skills instead of resources, but I wouldnt want to
play that char :) (sort of a vicious circle here)

> Jani wrote:
> >> Essense draining situations are always good for that. The magical
> >> equivalent of having your vehicle shot all to hell. Only it's harder
> >> to Repair.
> >
> > Are you out of your mind !!! Essence drain is permanent !
>
> As is magic loss. But they are still a viable means of stemming a
> PC's power albeit a rather drastic means. The sort of thing you'd
> keep for reserve (or use against a munchkin) I'd love to hear of a
> non-permanent loss (other than foci) as essence/magic loss is the
> the only thing to really affect physads

You could get theyr money/guns/cars/etc. not all of them are
Cain-KungFu dudes runing around with heinous HtH combat skills
you know.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 19
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 23:39:55 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
> I for example could not play a mage with less than 10 spells :)
> so I always take resources as the highest possible priority, thusly
> forcing myself to get shity attributes (skill points are no problem).
> I could get say skills instead of resources, but I wouldnt want to
> play that char :) (sort of a vicious circle here)
>
I dunno... I've got a character I'd like to play sometime (and I'll
probably get the chance, albeit as an NPC). It's a street kid who comes to
his power late, so he hasn't had time to learn many spells...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 20
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 07:23:25 -0700
Well, for example, we have a mage who had a weapon focus, which was a
sword with I-don't-know-WHAT-all on it, but he would usually kill
people in one hit. If a sniper shot at him, his automatic bullet barrier
would pop up. He had various stuff quickened on that made him fast
(increased reaction etc). He was an elf from some funky Tir discipline
that made him a combat monster....
He was actually very well roleplayed and a definite
personality, but he sure was nasty in combat.
And if all else failed, he had a bunch of original spells he'd
written, and he could write more. Try re-writing the laws of physics
next time your rigger is doing Mach 1 towards a mountain.

-E
Message no. 21
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:39:13 +6000
Jani wrote:
> Agreed. You know there is a funny thing about SR, all the players/GMs
> I know complain that all their characters look alike, but everyone
> has a different "connstant mental image". Everyone values some aspect
> of a character above else, so they tend to put it as a highest priority
> thus giving them the same character over and over again.

I had not thought of that, but now I think about it your right. I always
go for skills above all else (or second after being a mage) all my
characters tend to use skill and knowledge over brute force. Its why
I went for a former company man instead of a sam, and why I go for
high sorcery/conjuring skills before initiation.

> I for example could not play a mage with less than 10 spells :)
> so I always take resources as the highest possible priority, thusly
> forcing myself to get shity attributes (skill points are no problem).
> I could get say skills instead of resources, but I wouldnt want to
> play that char :) (sort of a vicious circle here)

>> As is magic loss. But they are still a viable means of stemming a
>> PC's power albeit a rather drastic means. The sort of thing you'd
>> keep for reserve (or use against a munchkin) I'd love to hear of a
>> non-permanent loss (other than foci) as essence/magic loss is the
>> the only thing to really affect physads

I should have said our phys-ad
>
> You could get theyr money/guns/cars/etc. not all of them are
> Cain-KungFu dudes runing around with heinous HtH combat skills
> you know.

Sure, but ours is. Since his weapons of choice are shotgun, heavy pistol
or HTH, not much spent there. Low lifestyle, no car and beat up bike
leaves him without much of a need for cash. Having said that sorting
out a new identity/ paying contacts and possibility of buying a weapon
focus are just over the horizon.

Maybe I can arrange to see if he can complete the next run
with his arm in a sling :) ooh thats good, massive HTH penalty
using shotgun one handed, give him a chance to brush up on
social/negotiation skills not a bad idea. Beats making
damn hard opponents for him to trash.

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 22
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: potential ... -Reply
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:50:36 -0700
Eve writes:
>A starting mage has his limits, but once you get up in Karma (which is
>what this topic is about; "potential", get it?) well...

Phil writes:
>My current game is not really mage biased as combined with my above
>comments, we keep karma low and this effects the mages/shamans
>more than the mundanes but I can see that further on the
>mage/shamans are gonna come out with an advantage. It helps to keep
>them down with taking out foci, quickenings etc and before a mage gets
>too good an Nth level initiate they should have suffered some magic
>loss.

I write:
Well, true the "potential" is there. Theoretically, with initiation, an
individual that uses magic (whenever, however) can increase their
Magic Rating infinitely. This is not true with any mundane class, unless
you look at their skills, which are their bread and butter. Deckers can
become Ghod-like in the matrix, a rigger can fit a citymaster thru a
narrow alley way on two wheels (or treads or whatever), etc. The
balance here is how the Karma is spent. Skills can be raised indefinitely.
So the individual with the magic rating (greater than zero) can choose
raw power (very alluring) or spells/skills. This choice tends to divide up
the availible Karma. And Magic Ratings are such fragile things, as Phil
alludes to. Not that I try to take away magic points, but things happen in
the Sixth World. The only time I see an "advantage" is with a PC that has
been around for a very long time (years, longer than the game itself has
been around), or in a game where the Karma is free flowing. In the
former case, the PC will probably have collected enough "attention" that
retirement will seem a logical choice, as opposed to dodging assassins
continually. In the latter case, the GM is asking for problems, so give it to
the Term.

Lou - Wisdom is the Beginning of Fear.
PS - Eve, you still owe me a Honeybee story.
Message no. 23
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 12:11:54 -0500
>Jani wrote:
>>> Essense draining situations are always good for that. The magical
>>> equivalent of having your vehicle shot all to hell. Only it's harder
>>> to Repair.

I wrote that... so there!

>> Are you out of your mind !!! Essence drain is permanent !

Point being?

>As is magic loss. But they are still a viable means of stemming a
>PC's power albeit a rather drastic means. The sort of thing you'd
>keep for reserve (or use against a munchkin) I'd love to hear of a
>non-permanent loss (other than foci) as essence/magic loss is the
>the only thing to really affect physads

Drugs... heheheh. Slam 'em full of some drug. It'll bugger their abilities
for a while. Not permanent, just long enough for effects/after-effects to
wear off. Which can be a LONG time with certain cases. If you can't think
of any off the top of your head... then make some, that's the beauty of the
GM thing <G>.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 24
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 16:39:00 -0500
>> Money is just as valuable if not more so to a rigger than karma is to a
>> spell-user (got in trouble over the word mage once... won't do that again).
>> Street prices on rigger stuff is phenomenally high! You don't have to spend
>> 4 times the karma to bond a spell focus you just picked up off a black
>> market talismonger, do you?

> Of course you do, when bonding a focus not built by you you have to
>pay the full bonding kost 5x rating for power foci. No mage worth his
>salt would go and do such a thing when he can built his own.

I think you missed the point. Street price is price times street index.
The street index on a focus is 2 (3 for weapon foci). Now imagine paying
10X rating becaus you had to get it on the street. That's what a rigger has
to go through.

> Your enemies canot use the SAAB to blast you and your buddies to hell
>and back :)

Your riggers must not like the idea of vehicle mounted weapons, huh?

> Loosing a focus could be used to balance things out, although
>particularly powerfull foci can be irreplacable. But loosing essence
>is final and irrevocable, its definitely out of the question.

WHAT?! "Out of the question?!" Do you ban firearms from the enemies
because they might hurt the players, too? Or how about wounds over serious?
I can't believe I read that. Had ot be a typo. Right? RIGHT?

>[stuff about what it's ok to do... sheesh]

The lock/quickening thing is pretty much a given. As far as I'm concerned
it's a good way to drop some karma from the spell-users and they usually
figur ethat out after a few disappear. But how about foci? Ever go after
one of those? I sure as hell would if I was facing a guy who had one, and
so would any caster (or any phys ad with astral perception) who knows what a
focus is (and just how many don't, I ask?). A round or two at most and it's
toast. Along with a heaping ton of karma from the silly spellslinger who
felt he needed the crutch. But if you want to rely on such things, then you
pay the price for it in my book.

> Your right, but some things are far too valuable to loose...

Then you better learn to take care of 'em. Or someone else will.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:33:39 +0200
> Are you out of your mind !!! Essence drain is permanent !

Depends on the exact power the creature has: Essence Drain (Permanent) or
Essence Drain (Temporary).


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Living on "if..." and "if I tried..."
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:34:01 +0200
> I for example could not play a mage with less than 10 spells :)
>so I always take resources as the highest possible priority, thusly
>forcing myself to get shity attributes (skill points are no problem).
>I could get say skills instead of resources, but I wouldnt want to
>play that char :) (sort of a vicious circle here)

Or you take Resources at E, right? Ending up with enough cash to get a laser
sight for a weapon you can't buy :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Living on "if..." and "if I tried..."
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 27
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 12:35:59 +0200
> >>> Essense draining situations are always good for that. The magical
> >>> equivalent of having your vehicle shot all to hell. Only it's harder
> >>> to Repair.

> >> Are you out of your mind !!! Essence drain is permanent !

> Point being?

When a rigger looses his car all he has to do is buy another, when
a sammie gets his 'ware fraged up all he has to do is repair it - I
am not saying that this is always easy or not painfull, but its
not permanent. When a mage looses magic its for even - there
is no way to get that point back.

> >As is magic loss. But they are still a viable means of stemming a
> >PC's power albeit a rather drastic means. The sort of thing you'd
> >keep for reserve (or use against a munchkin) I'd love to hear of a
> >non-permanent loss (other than foci) as essence/magic loss is the
> >the only thing to really affect physads
>
> Drugs... heheheh. Slam 'em full of some drug. It'll bugger their abilities
> for a while. Not permanent, just long enough for effects/after-effects to
> wear off. Which can be a LONG time with certain cases. If you can't think
> of any off the top of your head... then make some, that's the beauty of the
> GM thing <G>.

Yes drugs are a pretty nifty idea.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 28
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 12:57:23 +0200
> >> Money is just as valuable if not more so to a rigger than karma is to a
> >> spell-user (got in trouble over the word mage once... won't do that again).
> >> Street prices on rigger stuff is phenomenally high! You don't have to spend
> >> 4 times the karma to bond a spell focus you just picked up off a black
> >> market talismonger, do you?
>
> > Of course you do, when bonding a focus not built by you you have to
> >pay the full bonding kost 5x rating for power foci. No mage worth his
> >salt would go and do such a thing when he can built his own.
>
> I think you missed the point. Street price is price times street index.
> The street index on a focus is 2 (3 for weapon foci). Now imagine paying
> 10X rating becaus you had to get it on the street. That's what a rigger has
> to go through.

Well your post meantioned karma not money, and that is what I responed to.
"You don't have to spend times the karma to bond a spell focus you just
picked up off a black market talismonger, do you?"
That is what you said, and my answer is yes, its aqually 5x its rating.

> > Your enemies canot use the SAAB to blast you and your buddies to hell
> >and back :)
>
> Your riggers must not like the idea of vehicle mounted weapons, huh?

How about you can hide from a weapon, but you cant hide from ritual
sorcery.

> > Loosing a focus could be used to balance things out, although
> >particularly powerfull foci can be irreplacable. But loosing essence
> >is final and irrevocable, its definitely out of the question.
>
> WHAT?! "Out of the question?!" Do you ban firearms from the enemies
> because they might hurt the players, too? Or how about wounds over serious?
> I can't believe I read that. Had ot be a typo. Right? RIGHT?

Lets get this straight, I dont believe in ruining peoples characters
I know this is only IMHO and some people actually treat their groups like
that, but I dont. So yes this was not a typo, I would never force
essense/magic loss on a player just because I *think* that his character
is too powerfull. OTOH if the player himself chose a way of action that
brought this upon himself, well that is another story.

> The lock/quickening thing is pretty much a given. As far as I'm concerned
> it's a good way to drop some karma from the spell-users and they usually
> figur ethat out after a few disappear. But how about foci? Ever go after
> one of those?

I fully agree and so do my NPCs, I think that this goes without saying
anyway. In your respomse you talked about GM intervention not normal
everyday combat as a result of the runners actions.

> I sure as hell would if I was facing a guy who had one, and
> so would any caster (or any phys ad with astral perception) who knows what a
> focus is (and just how many don't, I ask?). A round or two at most and it's
> toast. Along with a heaping ton of karma from the silly spellslinger who
> felt he needed the crutch. But if you want to rely on such things, then you
> pay the price for it in my book.

As I said this goes without saying.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 29
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 13:05:05 +0200
> Well, for example, we have a mage who had a weapon focus, which was a
> sword with I-don't-know-WHAT-all on it, but he would usually kill
> people in one hit.

Did your GM ever introduce him to that friendly corp mage who roams
the astral and has nothing better to do than hunt down and destroy
runners that hurt his corp whithout even manifesting ?
(I mean a good solid grounding if you dint get my drift :)

> If a sniper shot at him, his automatic bullet barrier
> would pop up.

That was an anchoring right ? So I guess that said mage did not
pay you an astral visit.

> He had various stuff quickened on that made him fast
> (increased reaction etc).

This astral visitor things gets boring, so how about a nice
ward to burn those up ?

> He was an elf from some funky Tir discipline
> that made him a combat monster....

Errrr I guess you mean Tir NaN'Og, the ways and the paths
are not meant to be for players.

> And if all else failed, he had a bunch of original spells he'd
> written, and he could write more. Try re-writing the laws of physics
> next time your rigger is doing Mach 1 towards a mountain.

Thats a very nice and aceptable way of action as long as the spells are
correct and along the rules.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 30
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 14:36:28 +0200
> > I for example could not play a mage with less than 10 spells :)
> >so I always take resources as the highest possible priority, thusly
> >forcing myself to get shity attributes (skill points are no problem).
> >I could get say skills instead of resources, but I wouldnt want to
> >play that char :) (sort of a vicious circle here)
>
> Or you take Resources at E, right? Ending up with enough cash to get a laser
> sight for a weapon you can't buy :)

That was a low blow :) I was talking about a mage here :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 31
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 06:34:41 -0700
Now, correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure y'all will) But aren't there
ways to get around having every punk that walks by frag your spell
locks/foci/whatever? I seem to recall our mage had some way of hiding
his spell locks so that bad guys couldn't see them to frag them. Something
about hiding them on the astral. (apologies for the vagueness, but I
don't know the SR magic system very well)

And "nice and acceptable within the rules" notwithstanding, the power
to create new spells is pretty damn powerful. Can your sammie invent
a cyberarm plasma cannon? Can your rigger invent a dust-particle-sized
drone? Probably not, since in both cases you run into problems with
actual scientific laws. But if I NEED a spell that causes all the
windows (JUST the windows) in a building to melt, then I can write one.
Yes, it's OK in the rules. BUT, as I was saying, the rules are
biased towards mages.

(Oh, and btw with the mage example up there; I know that most things
are -linked- in some way to the astral plane, but our mage had his
-hidden- up there somehow as well.)

-E
Message no. 32
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 15:51:22 +0200
On Fri, 21 Apr 1995, Eve Forward wrote:

> Now, correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure y'all will) But aren't there
> ways to get around having every punk that walks by frag your spell
> locks/foci/whatever? I seem to recall our mage had some way of hiding
> his spell locks so that bad guys couldn't see them to frag them. Something
> about hiding them on the astral. (apologies for the vagueness, but I
> don't know the SR magic system very well)

Well, right you are! With the Metamagical Masking power, an
Initiate can hide a number of spell locks/other magical items up to her
Grade of Initiation, if my memory serves me right, and strike me
down dead if I'm wrong.

Another thing that could help in this could be imported from the
sister-product Earthdawn. The magi of Barsaive (and Thera) use the neat
Spell Matrix to avoid the harmful effects of their polluted Astral Space.
Someone is bound to get this idea soon, and the Immortals already know.
Certainly it can be adapted to mask magical objects - after all, Horrors
in Earthdawn cannot use magic items as conduits for their evil deeds, and
magic items have to be attuned and fed with Threads, just as Spell
Matrices. I'm waiting for this theorem.

Jonas
Message no. 33
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 00:18:01 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
> > Point being?
>
> When a rigger looses his car all he has to do is buy another, when
> a sammie gets his 'ware fraged up all he has to do is repair it - I
> am not saying that this is always easy or not painfull, but its
> not permanent. When a mage looses magic its for even - there
> is no way to get that point back.

Initiation and Geasa don't count?

(Also, repairing, say, that beta wired 3 can be a REAL bitch)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 34
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 18:45:38 +0200
> Now, correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure y'all will) But aren't there
> ways to get around having every punk that walks by frag your spell
> locks/foci/whatever? I seem to recall our mage had some way of hiding
> his spell locks so that bad guys couldn't see them to frag them. Something
> about hiding them on the astral. (apologies for the vagueness, but I
> don't know the SR magic system very well)

As others pointed out, yes there is the possibility of masking. BUT
masking is not the end all and be all solution. Its good as long as
the mage trying to "see through" you masking is of lower grade than
you are.

So the way I see it your GM let this player initiate (many times
from the amount of stuff he could mask) and did not put him up against
some serious opposition (read even higher grade initiates).

> And "nice and acceptable within the rules" notwithstanding, the power
> to create new spells is pretty damn powerful. Can your sammie invent
> a cyberarm plasma cannon? Can your rigger invent a dust-particle-sized
> drone? Probably not, since in both cases you run into problems with
> actual scientific laws. But if I NEED a spell that causes all the
> windows (JUST the windows) in a building to melt, then I can write one.
> Yes, it's OK in the rules. BUT, as I was saying, the rules are
> biased towards mages.

I sympathise with you, but hey this magic. Complaining about this
is the equivalent of a mage complaining because sammies go faster
and kill all the bad guys before he even has a chance to flinch.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 35
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Potential
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 12:54:11 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>
writes:

>> When a mage looses magic its for even - there is no way to get that
>> point back.

Robert> Initiation and Geasa don't count?

No, they don't. When you initiate, you don't get the lost magic point back,
you get a new one.

Robert> (Also, repairing, say, that beta wired 3 can be a REAL bitch)

Youch!

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 36
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 19:03:06 GMT
> > I think you missed the point. Street price is price times street index.
> > The street index on a focus is 2 (3 for weapon foci). Now imagine paying
> > 10X rating becaus you had to get it on the street. That's what a rigger has
> > to go through.
>
> Well your post meantioned karma not money, and that is what I responed to.
> "You don't have to spend times the karma to bond a spell focus you just
> picked up off a black market talismonger, do you?"
> That is what you said, and my answer is yes, its aqually 5x its rating.

What Bob meant was that the Karma cost didn't rise for buying it black market
or in otherwise dubious circumstamces, while a rigger has to pay more than
double for the vehicle and absolutely astronomic terms to arm it. And while
the focus might be expensive, mages are usually rich but desperate for Karma.

> > > Your enemies canot use the SAAB to blast you and your buddies to hell
> > >and back :)
> >
> > Your riggers must not like the idea of vehicle mounted weapons, huh?
>
> How about you can hide from a weapon, but you cant hide from ritual
> sorcery.

You can blow up your own focus... painful but perhaps necessary. And you
can trace the links to find whoever has it. If they cut the link at
least you are no longer vulnerable. On the other hand if that rigged
vehicle worked well for you, it'll work just as well for the enemy
who stole it and is using it on you: no bonding cost.

> > WHAT?! "Out of the question?!" Do you ban firearms from the enemies
> > because they might hurt the players, too? Or how about wounds over serious?
> > I can't believe I read that. Had ot be a typo. Right? RIGHT?
>
> Lets get this straight, I dont believe in ruining peoples characters
> I know this is only IMHO and some people actually treat their groups like
> that, but I dont. So yes this was not a typo, I would never force
> essense/magic loss on a player just because I *think* that his character
> is too powerfull. OTOH if the player himself chose a way of action that
> brought this upon himself, well that is another story.

I've had it done to me because a GM disagreed with the way I was playing
my coyote shaman and took two points of magic from her (directly from Coyote)
because "she was playing too many stupid practical jokes". That wasn't funny
and I felt he was way wrong: I dropped out of that campaign and put the
magic back in with the consent of my new GM.

On the other hand an initiate Wolf shaman was called out of retirement by one
of her best friends: decided it was too dangerous and walked away. Now there
is a case where Wolf just says "Well, screw you" and turns off the tap of
magic: and this was it until the shaman realised the error of her ways.
Coercion? Well, Wolf is pretty clearly defined: you never abandon friends and
you never back down. And there's room for some flexibility - but not that much.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 37
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 01:32:47 -0500
> Well your post meantioned karma not money, and that is what I responed to.
>"You don't have to spend times the karma to bond a spell focus you just
> picked up off a black market talismonger, do you?"
> That is what you said, and my answer is yes, its aqually 5x its rating.

ARRRGGGHHH!! Nevermind...

>> Your riggers must not like the idea of vehicle mounted weapons, huh?

> How about you can hide from a weapon, but you cant hide from ritual
>sorcery.

Cover only goes so far, and if you p*ss off a guy far enough to have him
wishing ritual sorcery on you... then you deserve everything you get.
Though a round through the arm (just enough to draw blood) is plenty good
for ritual material, why waste the effort going to grab a focus? And foci
are traceable. So while you're working for hours and hours trying to get
that spell sent through the focus, the mage whose focus it is will be
waiting until just about the end to screw up your efforts and reclaim his
toy. As with most loot, the faster you purge it, you better off you are.

> Lets get this straight, I dont believe in ruining peoples characters
>I know this is only IMHO and some people actually treat their groups like
>that, but I dont. So yes this was not a typo, I would never force
>essense/magic loss on a player just because I *think* that his character
>is too powerfull. OTOH if the player himself chose a way of action that
>brought this upon himself, well that is another story.

I don't ruin characters either, but the chance exists for THEM to do it
should they mess around with the wrong things. And I don't force essence
loss either, but that doesn't keep me from throwing a vampire or nosferatu
out there when I feel like one would fit into whatever I'm brewing up.

> I fully agree and so do my NPCs, I think that this goes without saying
>anyway. In your respomse you talked about GM intervention not normal
>everyday combat as a result of the runners actions.

GM intervention doesn't occur except in extreme cases. I'd only "intervene"
if a character had gotten too powerful. We had a rigger with a Banshee, a
samurai with more karma than Indra, and a decker that treated IC like water.
They are all living happily as NPC's now. I didn't do this, I played the
samurai. But I knew it was time for him to move on. I would expect a GM to
remove unbalancing or overpowered characters from the campaign (at least as
PC's). No one lost essence, no one lost cyberware or the like. They just
all moved on. Overall the only person who remained upset was the rigger.
But even he's come off of that now.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 12:40:19 +0200
[on spell matrices]
>Someone is bound to get this idea soon, and the Immortals already know.

I doubt it. Matrices were developed because casting magic in the SR way
attracted Horrors. Since there are no real Horrors in SR yet, there is no
need for matrices.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 39
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 00:07:37 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> How about you can hide from a weapon, but you cant hide from ritual
> sorcery.

I was of the opinion that wards and other astral barriers made it
particularily difficult to perform ritual sorcery.

-------------------
Eve Forward writes:

> But if I NEED a spell that causes all the windows (JUST the windows) in a
> building to melt, then I can write one.

I wouldn't be so sure of that particular example (though the argument I
agree with). The windows of a building are an integrated part of it's aura.
You cannot single out specific bits of an entities aura to cast spells on. A
"Melt Windows" spell is like a "Shrivel Left Pinky" spell. You can't
do it.

------------------------
Jonas Gabrielson writes:

> Well, right you are! With the Metamagical Masking power, an
> Initiate can hide a number of spell locks/other magical items up to her
> Grade of Initiation, if my memory serves me right, and strike me
> down dead if I'm wrong.

You shouldn't have said that... :-) One can mask a number of _Rating Points_
of foci equal to one's grade. Not a number of _foci_ equal to one's grade.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 12:36:09 +0200
>I wouldn't be so sure of that particular example (though the argument I
>agree with). The windows of a building are an integrated part of it's aura.
>You cannot single out specific bits of an entities aura to cast spells on. A
>"Melt Windows" spell is like a "Shrivel Left Pinky" spell. You
can't do it.

Then write a Melt Glass spell (with a restricted target: glass). I don't see
any problems with that...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 41
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:30:15 +1000
Gurth writes:

> Then write a Melt Glass spell (with a restricted target: glass). I don't see
> any problems with that...

OK, now I want to design a "Turn Aeroplane Wall Invisible" spell...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 42
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 23:49:42 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
> Gurth writes:
> > Then write a Melt Glass spell (with a restricted target: glass). I don't see
> > any problems with that...
>
> OK, now I want to design a "Turn Aeroplane Wall Invisible" spell...

That you can't do... Glass is an obvious thing. The aforementioned "Melt
Glass" spell would not only nuke the windows, but anything else that was
glass in the area of effect (those little holes you look through doors with,
for example). A "Melt Windows" spell wouldn't be possible. Similarly, a
"Turn Aeroplane Wall Invisible" spell is not possible.

Is this clearer?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 43
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 11:22:59 +0200
>Gurth writes:
>
>> Then write a Melt Glass spell (with a restricted target: glass). I don't see
>> any problems with that...
>
>OK, now I want to design a "Turn Aeroplane Wall Invisible" spell...

No, that would be targetting a select part of an aura, namely the wall of
the aircraft. However, if the wall is the only part of the aircraft made of
a given material within the AOE of the spell, I would allow someone to cast
a "Melt Given Material" spell on it to remove that wall.
It's all rather subjective to the GM's perceptions, isn't it?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 44
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 14:57:18 +0200
> ARRRGGGHHH!! Nevermind...

I was being a bit unreasonable sorry :)

> >> Your riggers must not like the idea of vehicle mounted weapons, huh?
>
> > How about you can hide from a weapon, but you cant hide from ritual
> >sorcery.
>
> Cover only goes so far, and if you p*ss off a guy far enough to have him
> wishing ritual sorcery on you... then you deserve everything you get.

You say this as if you think that ritual sorcery is some sort of
last resort. I think that in a world where magic is accesible to
anyone (that can afford it) ritual sorcery will be the primary solution
to such problems. Why bother with hitmen/runners/all those unstable dudes
when you can blast your enemies from a safe postion with null risk to you
(as long as they arent magically active).

> Though a round through the arm (just enough to draw blood) is plenty good
> for ritual material, why waste the effort going to grab a focus? And foci
> are traceable.

DNA samples (like blood) are traceable too (its a two way steet dude :)
thats why they can be used as ritual material in the first place. But still
it takes a pretty gutsy magician to follow the link - after all it takes
a *team* to cast ritual spells and you really dont want to get outnumbered
in the astral chummer.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 45
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 15:07:06 +0200
> > How about you can hide from a weapon, but you cant hide from ritual
> > sorcery.
>
> I was of the opinion that wards and other astral barriers made it
> particularily difficult to perform ritual sorcery.

Wards can give you some protection, but at waht cost ?!?! In order to
stay "protected" you sacrifice your mobility - in other words you stay like
a siting duck waiting for their squads to come to you.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 46
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 08:06:40 -0700
>>Jonas Gabrielson writes:
>> Well, right you are! With the Metamagical Masking power, an
>> Initiate can hide a number of spell locks/other magical items up
to her
>> Grade of Initiation, if my memory serves me right, and strike me
>> down dead if I'm wrong.
>
>Damion Milliken writes:
>You shouldn't have said that... :-) One can mask a number of
_Rating Points_
>of foci equal to one's grade. Not a number of _foci_ equal to
one's grade.

OK so a low level Initiate can only mask small Foci - but how many
items can an initiate mask... i.e. can a level 2 initiate mask a
level 2 foci and 2 spell locks and his own aura???

Thanks Gary Carroll
Message no. 47
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 19:05:10 +0200
> >Damion Milliken writes:
> >You shouldn't have said that... :-) One can mask a number of
> _Rating Points_
> >of foci equal to one's grade. Not a number of _foci_ equal to
> one's grade.
>
> OK so a low level Initiate can only mask small Foci - but how many
> items can an initiate mask... i.e. can a level 2 initiate mask a
> level 2 foci and 2 spell locks and his own aura???

This means that a level 2 initiate can either mask 2 locks
or one rating 2 focus, or one raring 1 focus and one lock.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 48
From: GR DIRK KENNETH W <DIRKKENN@***.ISU.EDU>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 13:30:10 MST
Jani Fikouras writes:
> Wards can give you some protection, but at what cost?!?! In
> order to stay "protected" you sacrifice your mobility -

I'm not sure about this but aren't there ways to have a ward
move with you. I thought I remembered someone mentioning
something about warding their car. Or is this only while it
is parked? The NAGM talks about a type of ward that messes
up detection spells but doesn't have other effects.

If I'm totally wrong please flame on low heat.

-DrugDoc
(aka Ken Dirk)
Message no. 49
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 17:53:18 +1000
GR DIRK KENNETH W writes:

> I'm not sure about this but aren't there ways to have a ward
> move with you. I thought I remembered someone mentioning
> something about warding their car. Or is this only while it
> is parked?

Yeah, wards can be placed on anything. Cars included. However, this would
still require you to stay in the car to gain the protection of the ward.
More mobility than sitting at home, but not all that much. I suppose it
would be possible to ward a suit of heavy armour...<munchkinous thoughts run
through his mind>

> The NAGM talks about a type of ward that messes up detection spells but
> doesn't have other effects.

Yeah, so it'd be pretty worthless unless someone was performing a ritual
socery detection spell on you.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 50
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:12:15 +0200
> Wards can give you some protection, but at waht cost ?!?! In order to
>stay "protected" you sacrifice your mobility - in other words you stay like
>a siting duck waiting for their squads to come to you.

Set up lots of wards all over the city. Then move from ward to ward so the
hit teams can't locate you easily and the ritual team still has to deal with
the wards.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 51
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:12:48 +0200
>Yeah, wards can be placed on anything. Cars included. However, this would
>still require you to stay in the car to gain the protection of the ward.
>More mobility than sitting at home, but not all that much.

If you ward your car, simply put the ward on it so you have a few meters to
walk around it -- you can order food from drive-ins, and even get out of the
car to put money in the parking meter :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 52
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 23:57:13 +0930
Gurth wrote:
> Set up lots of wards all over the city. Then move from ward to ward so the
> hit teams can't locate you easily and the ritual team still has to deal with
> the wards.

But the COST!! At a grand per force per ward, you wouldn't want to want to
keep it up very long (not to mention you'd probably need to re-ward them
every few days).

For the same price, I'd rather send a half-dozen tough elementals down the
link...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 53
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 18:06:09 +0200
On Sat, 22 Apr 1995, Gurth wrote:

> [on spell matrices]
> >Someone is bound to get this idea soon, and the Immortals already know.
>
> I doubt it. Matrices were developed because casting magic in the SR way
> attracted Horrors. Since there are no real Horrors in SR yet, there is no
> need for matrices.

Well, you're basically right, I guess. Even though some Horrors
seem to have slipped through, if you're to believe Harlequin's Back. The
Nomads and the Wraiths have certainly arrived!

Anyway, what I really meant was the inherent advantages from
working through a matrix, or making a matrix around a magic item. The
principal raison d'etre of the Spell Matrix is that it protects the user
from the astral plane. A Horror cannot Mark a person through a Matrix.
This is basically like an ultra-secure masking/shielding. So, by
developing Spell Matrices, the magicians of the world can protect their
precious Spell Locks, Power Foci and other channels from physical to
astral. No more fear of astral guardians grounding spells through the
magician. I for one think this sounds feasible, but perhaps some GMs out
there hate the ideas of losing this edge. But with only NPCs using it
(like Dragons and Immortal Elves), well - happy days are here again!

-Jonas Gabrielson
Message no. 54
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 10:24:59 GMT
From: Jonas Gabrielson

>
> Another thing that could help in this could be imported from the
> sister-product Earthdawn. The magi of Barsaive (and Thera) use the neat
> Spell Matrix to avoid the harmful effects of their polluted Astral Space.
> Someone is bound to get this idea soon, and the Immortals already know.
> Certainly it can be adapted to mask magical objects - after all, Horrors
> in Earthdawn cannot use magic items as conduits for their evil deeds, and
> magic items have to be attuned and fed with Threads, just as Spell
> Matrices. I'm waiting for this theorem.
>
> Jonas
>
Spell matricies
I assume someone will eventually introduce this in SR as it would
have the added benefit of no drain. I assume no one has done it yet
(it would i think just be another type of grade dependant metamagic)
is because no one but the dragons and immortal elves yet know that it
is going to be needed so have not tried hard enough.
There would be other advantages.
The other posibility is that spell matricies need a higher magic
level than we have so far. One may note there is (in HB) a comment
that we don't have enough magic to hide yet (you either know what
from or don't want to find out), also the 'elves with thorns magic'
from ED has not activated yet as far as i know.

Mark
Message no. 55
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 10:56:37 GMT
Jani Fikouras writes

> Are you out of your mind !!! Essence drain is permanent !
>
Agreed

> > A ward can nail foci and locks.
>
> This is a very nice solution.
>
For rules see NAGA when it comes out. Finally FASA.

> > Attacking a focus/lock astrally does all
> > kinds of things. Even a low force elemental or spirit moves FAST in the
> > astral, faster than almost any mage and plenty fast enough to raze a couple
> > toys before the magician got around to dealing with it.
>
> Well they are not that fast, they have a slight advantage but that is only
> good if their force is high enough. But on the whole you are right a
> spirit on a suicide mission would get a couple of locks before geting fried.
> OTOH a mage that goes around with his locks turned on and not watching
> the astral for intruders deservers everything you care to through at him.
>
Mage vs elemental is fairly even unless one is astral and the other
physiacl. And why blow locks up, thats wrecking a nice way of
dropping fireballs and such on the poor slot, after the magician
blows up a few times he might just decide to go a bit careful.

>
> This is quite true, but you'll also have to consider that no mage
> "advertises" the presence/rating/cost of his foci,
>
well not if he intemds to live anyway.
> --
> "Believe in Angels." -- The Crow
>
>
Mark
Message no. 56
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 12:28:42 GMT
Gurth writes

> [on spell matrices]
> >Someone is bound to get this idea soon, and the Immortals already know.
>
> I doubt it. Matrices were developed because casting magic in the SR way
> attracted Horrors. Since there are no real Horrors in SR yet,
YET being the operative word here,
>there is no need for matrices.

yes but they still have thier uses, like there is no drain in ED!!
unless you use raw magic (i.e. without the matrix) in which case you
take damage, physical as the astral plane is so corrupted.

>
>
> Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/%gurth/index.html

Mark
Message no. 57
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 17:38:04 +0200
On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, Mark Steedman wrote:

> {Spell matrices}
> (it would i think just be another type of grade dependant metamagic)

Probably, but then it's also some sort of magical construct - a
wizard in ED can only have one matrix per times he's bought that talent.
Also, there are several types of matrices, in the higher circles (that
probably correspond to initiate levels, anyway).

> There would be other advantages.

Like being "IC" on foci - remember, the magic items of ED hold
threads, as do its spells, and therefore probably have some version of
the matrices built into them. Horrors cannot ground talents/spells
through active magic items, after all.

> The other posibility is that spell matricies need a higher magic
> level than we have so far. One may note there is (in HB) a comment
> that we don't have enough magic to hide yet (you either know what
> from or don't want to find out), also the 'elves with thorns magic'
> from ED has not activated yet as far as i know.

This is a definite possibility. However, I think the "magic to
hide" mentioned is the ability to weave elemental earth, water, fire, air
and wood into kaers of the strength needed. When I think of it, elemental
materials probably haven't emerged yet (on the other hand, maybe that's
how they can grow orichalcum in Wales and other places - after all,
orichalcum is only found naturally close to elemental earth, according to
ED). My opinion on thorn-elves is that they probably won't activate at
all in the Sixth World (with the possible exception of Blood Queen
Alachia/ Prince Jenna Ni'Fairra). The ritual worked on these unfortunates
is probably not genetically inheredited (it's just magic, after all, not
a complete gene re-make).

I seem to have drifted into a SR-ED debate, and I'll close now,
so FL won't hunt me down with an axe.

- Jonas
Message no. 58
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: potential ...
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 08:21:58 GMT
Jonas wrote
Trimmed
>
> On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> > {Spell matrices}
> > (it would i think just be another type of grade dependant metamagic)
>
> Probably, but then it's also some sort of magical construct - a
> wizard in ED can only have one matrix per times he's bought that talent.
> Also, there are several types of matrices, in the higher circles (that
> probably correspond to initiate levels, anyway).
>
In some rough way though i don't thing they are supposed to be
directly equivalent. All adepts in ED are the ED equivalent to SR
initiates though the magic works rather differently. Finally in the
'Adepts way' book there is a very familiar list of initation ordeals,
couldn't wonder where i saw that list before.

>
> - Jonas
>
>

Mark
Message no. 59
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Potential...
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 23:08:50 -0600
On Wed, 19 Apr 1995, Louis Barrera wrote:

Lou you are trully annoying when it comes to being a gm. I can say this
since he fragged two of my pc's in as many days. I have been GM''ing and
have forgotten how to run PC"s!...anyway...

> In regards to "hosing" magic using individuals, one concept that I haven't
> seen bandied about yet was the vulnerability of libraries. Take the
> recommended course and make ones over Rating 4 VERY unique.
> Someone will always be looking to boost it. Admittedly more of a problem
> for hermetics than shamans. On the other hand, how long does it take to
> properly attune a lodge, and how susceptible is it to defilement, for lack
> of a better phase. It becomes a place that can be staked out, and the
> owning shaman can be waxed, coming or going. A serious weakness
> for a shadowrunner who has to not be predictable. In addition, if you
> start making magic materials harder to come by, that also puts a check on
> magic usage. Or, even better, it sends the runners into the wilderness.
>
Well Lou how do you explain Ground Zero? Granted its a creatue of MY
world but it has a lodge (Ludos) and I think a hermetic library (Edges)
in there also. Of course since the mayor frequents the place....:) But
since we are running off to Germany as i type this (well the rest are Im
in under the knife) I wonder if Amber and the crew really understand
what the tactical risks are of having the place.

> On the point that was raised about foci not being worth the trouble to
> dispose of, I disagree. Spell locks (truely annoying items) can be done
> away with readily by using watchers, and when they're gone, it
> changes the balance of an encounter. I have run into (munchkin)players
> who've sculpted their characters and known spells around having locks.
> Puff, fragged character. In addition to the possible joy of ridding a PC of
> a focus, the attack will generally re"focus" the PC's attention, not
> allowing the magic support that was part of the team's tactic.

I came in late to this thread but My shaman character made it away from a
magic intensive encounter(dead but she's back to life know). Her foci
did not get spiked, as you suggest. Granted Ilearned very quickly what
not to do. I do see why the foci need to be distroyed, unless its a GM
asking how. Fill me in in RL ok?

Laters Edge

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are infinitely patient, prefering to minimize risks to themelves and
suffer a thousand defeats if they gain the final victory. Still, they are
diabolically clever, and devious in the extream. If they fail militarily,
they infiltrate and corrupt. Now they are on the march once more, and the
more they are set back, the more determined, devious and dangerous they
become. Curr ahee
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Peterson (Paul Finch) Edge | US Army Ret. 1/506th Inf (Mtr. Lt.)
EMT-Paramedic/BSN Wanna-be and Will-Be! Self Empowered Gun Nut

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