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Message no. 1
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:45:24 EDT
In a message dated 4/17/00 1:11:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> > > And how many PCs have Regeneration? Well, any of them that are clever
> and
> > > well-connected enough to get some Immortal Flower, I guess. :)
> >
> > GACK! PUKE!!! NADA!!!
>
> How about Spirit Strength? Or Deepweed? Are you tearing your hair out yet?
> Gnashing your teeth? <G>

Na, those things don't bother all that much merely because they are on a
pretense of something else entirely different.

Player Mentality.

All of those would be relatively "common" in that their abilities have
drawbacks and the like while "Immortality" seems to be the one "drug"
that
makes people go and do the dumbest, stupidest, things I have ever seen in a
game (any game for that matter). The other "potions" in SR, as such as they
are, don't really mess with the overall mechanics of the game. "Immortal
Flower" as a concept, is something else entirely different IMHO.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 2
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:58:42 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: HHackerH@***.com <HHackerH@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 7:47 AM
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!


>In a message dated 4/17/00 1:11:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
>
>> > > And how many PCs have Regeneration? Well, any of them that are
clever
>> and
>> > > well-connected enough to get some Immortal Flower, I guess. :)
>> >
>> > GACK! PUKE!!! NADA!!!
>>
>> How about Spirit Strength? Or Deepweed? Are you tearing your hair out
yet?
>> Gnashing your teeth? <G>
>
>Na, those things don't bother all that much merely because they are on a
>pretense of something else entirely different.
>
>Player Mentality.
>
>All of those would be relatively "common" in that their abilities have
>drawbacks and the like while "Immortality" seems to be the one
"drug" that
>makes people go and do the dumbest, stupidest, things I have ever seen in a
>game (any game for that matter). The other "potions" in SR, as such as
they
>are, don't really mess with the overall mechanics of the game. "Immortal
>Flower" as a concept, is something else entirely different IMHO.
>
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>-K


I have to ask, what is Immortal Flower? Amaranth is supposed to be an
immortal flower. Tumbleweed is a type of amaranth. If you eat a tumbleweed
to you regenerate?
Gods, this flu is really getting to me :)
Message no. 3
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:17:08 -0400
From: <HHackerH@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > How about Spirit Strength? Or Deepweed? Are you tearing your hair out
yet?
> > Gnashing your teeth? <G>
>
> Na, those things don't bother all that much merely because they are on a
> pretense of something else entirely different.
>
> Player Mentality.

Ah, yes.

> All of those would be relatively "common" in that their abilities have
> drawbacks and the like while "Immortality" seems to be the one
"drug" that
> makes people go and do the dumbest, stupidest, things I have ever seen in
a
> game (any game for that matter). The other "potions" in SR, as such as
they
> are, don't really mess with the overall mechanics of the game. "Immortal
> Flower" as a concept, is something else entirely different IMHO.

I can see what you mean. Though Immortal Flower *does* cause 2d6 wound
effects to cyberware sporters [and bio? if I recall], it doesn't have much
else, beyond the bit where every 20 boxes of damage you'd have suffered,
reducing your overflow by one.

Of course, anything that gives you Movement or Concealment seems a little
unbalancing to me! :)

But, generally, that's one that people just take so they can be stupid.
"Look at me! I can kill, but I can't die!"

I only mentioned it because my character in an "away" game I'm *not* GMing
[yay!] panicked while under fire this Sunday and took some. Of course, when
he was on the flight home and his cybereyes started trying to come out of
his head, he regretted it...a little.
Message no. 4
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:30:45 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/00 7:15:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> > All of those would be relatively "common" in that their abilities have
> > drawbacks and the like while "Immortality" seems to be the one
"drug"
that
> > makes people go and do the dumbest, stupidest, things I have ever seen in
> a
> > game (any game for that matter). The other "potions" in SR, as such
as
> they
> > are, don't really mess with the overall mechanics of the game. "Immortal
> > Flower" as a concept, is something else entirely different IMHO.
>
> I can see what you mean. Though Immortal Flower *does* cause 2d6 wound
> effects to cyberware sporters [and bio? if I recall], it doesn't have much
> else, beyond the bit where every 20 boxes of damage you'd have suffered,
> reducing your overflow by one.

I don't recall the effects concerning "Bioware", but it would make some sense
to have it work their as well. And that last part has always confounded me a
bit. Does the character just keep track of their total damage for the rest
of their lives??? I can see it, but damn that is a lot of
mechanics/bookkeeping for any/all involved.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 5
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:51:24 -0400
From: <HHackerH@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > I can see what you mean. Though Immortal Flower *does* cause 2d6 wound
> > effects to cyberware sporters [and bio? if I recall], it doesn't have
much
> > else, beyond the bit where every 20 boxes of damage you'd have
suffered,
> > reducing your overflow by one.
>
> I don't recall the effects concerning "Bioware", but it would make some
sense
> to have it work their as well.

I'm not certain. I know I took a Bioware wound effect, but that might have
more to do with my misuse of the charts than anything else. :)

> And that last part has always confounded me a
> bit. Does the character just keep track of their total damage for the
rest
> of their lives??? I can see it, but damn that is a lot of
> mechanics/bookkeeping for any/all involved.

No, no, no. I believe it is *only* while the drug is in effect that you keep
track of the 20 box bit. Obviously, you do have to keep track of the
reduction to your overflow, but you don't lose one overflow box per 20 boxes
of damage for the rest of your life, just during the Ess-12 hour duration,
AFAIK.
Message no. 6
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:57:08 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/00 9:49:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> No, no, no. I believe it is *only* while the drug is in effect that you keep
> track of the 20 box bit. Obviously, you do have to keep track of the
> reduction to your overflow, but you don't lose one overflow box per 20
boxes
> of damage for the rest of your life, just during the Ess-12 hour duration,
> AFAIK.
>
Ah, okay ... I've figured out my problem here. I am misremembering which
potion and what "Immortal Flower" is involved here. My bad.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 7
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:04:09 -0400
HHackerH@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/18/00 9:49:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
>
> > No, no, no. I believe it is *only* while the drug is in effect that you keep
> > track of the 20 box bit. Obviously, you do have to keep track of the
> > reduction to your overflow, but you don't lose one overflow box per 20
> boxes
> > of damage for the rest of your life, just during the Ess-12 hour duration,
> > AFAIK.
> >
> Ah, okay ... I've figured out my problem here. I am misremembering which
> potion and what "Immortal Flower" is involved here. My bad.
>

But what happens when your newbie GM lets you get a chem gland that keeps a dose
of IF in you all the time?




--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++
h>h+ r--- !y+**
Message no. 8
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:31:38 -0400
From: "NaCl(aq)" <jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu>
> HHackerH@***.com wrote:
> > abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > > No, no, no. I believe it is *only* while the drug is in effect that
you keep
> > > track of the 20 box bit. Obviously, you do have to keep track of the
> > > reduction to your overflow, but you don't lose one overflow box per
20
> > boxes
> > > of damage for the rest of your life, just during the Ess-12 hour
duration,
> > > AFAIK.
> > >
> > Ah, okay ... I've figured out my problem here. I am misremembering
which
> > potion and what "Immortal Flower" is involved here. My bad.

Eh, no bad. We can't be expected to carry the books around with us *all* the
time, can we? ;)

> But what happens when your newbie GM lets you get a chem gland that keeps
a dose
> of IF in you all the time?

I'm uncertain. K, what do you think? Chemgland aside, what would happen if
you took a second dose before the first one was over, or just as it ran out?
Hell, what would happen with *any* of the CFS magical compounds if you
either double-dosed or dosed back-to-back?
Message no. 9
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:37:07 -0400
> From: "NaCl(aq)" <jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu>
> <SNIP>
> But what happens when your newbie GM lets you get a chem gland that keeps a
> dose of IF in you all the time?

Then you're a jerk for pulling one over your GMs eyes, especially a newbie who'd
regret his decision the moment he found out exactly what he'd allowed. And you
lose Karma in the deal for screwing the GM. That's what would happen in my game.
I might even kill the char, just to punish you.

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 10
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:43:45 -0400
--Boundary_(ID_1R+HrhIvgyk1XhJupT7BEw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Strago wrote:

>
>
> Then you're a jerk for pulling one over your GMs eyes, especially a newbie who'd
> regret his decision the moment he found out exactly what he'd allowed. And you
> lose Karma in the deal for screwing the GM. That's what would happen in my game.
> I might even kill the char, just to punish you.

Hey, hey. I never said I would do this. I've just discussed the idea before, and a
new GM being tricked into it was the only way I could think of that someone could
get a character like that to exist. I was trying to put the question into context,
as opposed to saying 'a chem gland with IF??' and expecting the same responses.

Oh, and according to M&M, the chem gland is made to always keep one dose in you, so
there is no double dosing, though it is a good question.


--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++
h>h+ r--- !y+**


--Boundary_(ID_1R+HrhIvgyk1XhJupT7BEw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Strago wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>Then you're a jerk for pulling one over your GMs eyes, especially a
newbie who'd
<br>regret his decision the moment he found out exactly what he'd allowed.
And you
<br>lose Karma in the deal for screwing the GM. That's what would happen
in my game.
<br>I might even kill the char, just to punish you.</blockquote>
Hey, hey. I never said <i>I</i> would do this. I've just discussed the
idea before, and a new GM being tricked into it was the only way I could
think of that someone could get a character like that to exist. I was trying
to put the question into context, as opposed to saying 'a chem gland with
IF??' and expecting the same responses.
<p>Oh, and according to M&amp;M, the chem gland is made to always keep
one dose in you, so there is no double dosing, though it is a good question.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>--
<br>NaCl(aq)
<br>-------------
<br>GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+
DI+++ G e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_1R+HrhIvgyk1XhJupT7BEw)--
Message no. 11
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:53:27 -0400
From: NaCl(aq)
> Oh, and according to M&M, the chem gland is made to
> always keep one dose in you, so there is no double dosing,
> though it is a good question.

Hey! Plain Text only! 76 [or so] character wrap! :)

Anyway, on-topic, that's correct, but then you get into the other half of my
question, which is: what happens when you back-to-back doses?
Message no. 12
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:54:45 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/00 10:07:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu writes:

> > Ah, okay ... I've figured out my problem here. I am misremembering which
> > potion and what "Immortal Flower" is involved here. My bad.
> >
>
> But what happens when your newbie GM lets you get a chem gland that keeps
a
> dose
> of IF in you all the time?

You calmly walk up to the guy with an "Idea BAT(MT)" behind your back, remind
him that "Immortal Flower" is an alchemical compound and not produced in a
"natural" manner such as this, and then BAP(TM)! him over the head once for
good measure :-)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 13
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:58:23 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/00 10:32:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> > But what happens when your newbie GM lets you get a chem gland that keeps
> a dose
> > of IF in you all the time?
>
> I'm uncertain. K, what do you think? Chemgland aside, what would happen if
> you took a second dose before the first one was over, or just as it ran
out?
> Hell, what would happen with *any* of the CFS magical compounds if you
> either double-dosed or dosed back-to-back?

Double/Overdosing on any of the magically oriented compounds (CFS/Man &
Machine) would literally cause me to start hacking up hairballs. Because of
the extensive use of Enchanting, in all it's variations, in our home games
here we have rules and ideas for such.

The most recent, and perhaps simplest, method of coping with this in my
opinion would be to have the person begin to develop both an addiction and a
resistance to the effects of the "potion" in question. I still personally
would have a VERY hard time trying to keep a straight face in the GM's games
who allowed for this. I think, were one of my magically oriented characters
... let alone Padre/Reflex ... to discover this in a character he's hanging
with would probably start messing with the guy just to perform some "live
experimentation" ... you know... Magical Research is *always* looking for
some willing guinea pi... er, uhm ...volunteers... ;-)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 14
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:59:18 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/00 10:34:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
strago@***.com writes:

>
> Then you're a jerk for pulling one over your GMs eyes, especially a newbie
> who'd
> regret his decision the moment he found out exactly what he'd allowed. And
> you
> lose Karma in the deal for screwing the GM. That's what would happen in my
> game.
> I might even kill the char, just to punish you.

Ah, but Strago ... you just don't have patience for this ... there are so
many little manipulated plothooks for this that could be so MUCH fun for you,
in the capacity of GM in this case, to just have run near-rampant with.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 15
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:31:26 -0400
From: <HHackerH@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > I'm uncertain. K, what do you think? Chemgland aside, what would happen
if
> > you took a second dose before the first one was over, or just as it ran
> out?
> > Hell, what would happen with *any* of the CFS magical compounds if you
> > either double-dosed or dosed back-to-back?
>
> Double/Overdosing on any of the magically oriented compounds (CFS/Man &
> Machine) would literally cause me to start hacking up hairballs. Because
of
> the extensive use of Enchanting, in all it's variations, in our home games
> here we have rules and ideas for such.

Speaking of rules, it's curious that FASA didn't include *any* rules on
tolerance, addiction, edge, etc., for these so-easily-abused compounds. And
no price, no availability. Sure, I can make it up, but why offer Availablity
for Burn, but not for Immortal Flower? And no dosage rules, nothing; just
the CFS reprints.

Strangely, Deepweed, which is one of the magical compounds in question,
*does* get these stats, in the table with the Street Drugs. Did someone
simply forget a table, or is it on some other page? Has this, perhaps, been
errataed?
Message no. 16
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:21:04 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/00 2:29:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> Speaking of rules, it's curious that FASA didn't include *any* rules on
> tolerance, addiction, edge, etc., for these so-easily-abused compounds. And
> no price, no availability. Sure, I can make it up, but why offer
Availablity
> for Burn, but not for Immortal Flower? And no dosage rules, nothing; just
> the CFS reprints.
>
> Strangely, Deepweed, which is one of the magical compounds in question,
> *does* get these stats, in the table with the Street Drugs. Did someone
> simply forget a table, or is it on some other page? Has this, perhaps, been
> errataed?

I'm uncertain, but it might be one of those things where a simple errata
would probably be a good idea. Of course, the alternative is that "it's
magic" could be used as an excuse (though probably not a good one).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 17
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:06:56 -0400
From: <HHackerH@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > Speaking of rules, it's curious that FASA didn't include *any*
> > rules on tolerance, addiction, edge, etc., for these
> > so-easily-abused compounds. And no price, no availability.
> > Sure, I can make it up, but why offer Availablity for Burn,
> > but not for Immortal Flower? And no dosage rules, nothing; just
> > the CFS reprints.
> >
> > Strangely, Deepweed, which is one of the magical compounds
> > in question, *does* get these stats, in the table with the Street
> > Drugs. Did someone simply forget a table, or is it on some
> > other page? Has this, perhaps, been errataed?
>
> I'm uncertain, but it might be one of those things where a simple errata
> would probably be a good idea. Of course, the alternative is that "it's
> magic" could be used as an excuse (though probably not a good one).

Yes, the "it's magic" would be awful, not only because I believe Deepweed
*is* included, but because someone, somewhere, *must* sell these things.
They may have Availabilities in the hundreds, and cost a million nuyen a
dose, but prices exist. And no rules for Edge, etc.?

Obviously, again, there's the simple answer of "make it yourself," but if
some things - Burn, Novacoke, Enhanced Articulation - receive stats, and
this small group of other things don't, what's the point? I think, of all
things, SR3 needs consistancy, and including stats for *all* things, since
that seems to be a significant draw for people, should be across-the-board,
and not a single item should be excluded. [If we included stats for wire
cutters, we should include them for Spirit Strength!]

In other words, if you're going to include any stats, include them all. And
if I don't like them, I can change them; but if there's nowhere to even
begin...well, you run into those "Immortal Flower in chemgland" situations
we spoke of earlier. :)

In any case, on the off chance that it was a "missing table" error, I'm
going to cc: this to Mike and see if maybe some Errata might come of it.
Message no. 18
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Fw: Potions, Alchemy and Mayhem ... oh MY!!!
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:47:42 -0400
From: <FASAMike@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

Here's my response from MM. Take it as you will. While I'd love to itemise
my responses to this, I think it'd be largely futile.

> >In other words, if you're going to include any stats, include them all.
> >And if I don't like them, I can change them; but if there's nowhere to
even
> >begin...well, you run into those "Immortal Flower in chemgland"
situations
> >we spoke of earlier. :)
>
> The answer is "rare" as it says in the text and since only select members
of
> tribes know this secret the availability and street index would be
> restricted. Thus a table of items and restricted listings seems silly and
> waste of space.
>
> Restricted items are limited by the GM and the nature of the campaign as
they
> have always been.
>
> >In any case, on the off chance that it was a "missing table" error, I'm
> >going to cc: this to Mike and see if maybe some Errata might come of it.
>
> No table is needed.

Further Reading

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