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Message no. 1
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Power curve of Mages
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:22:47 +1000
s c rose writes:
>IMO the magic system is SR has some holes one of them is the power
>curve. Mages can become very
>powerful by increasing in grade cyber based characters while starting
>more powerful do not have
>this advantage, getting better skills and upgrading cyberware is not
>near the power boost that
>a grade increase is for a mage in regard to cost...


The solution is to restrict access to the all important libraries (for
mages, at least). If a hermetic mage can't get access to anything beyond a
Sorcery Library 4, for example, their power curve starts to level out a
lot...

In my games, a Rating 6 magical library is a holy grail, almost... there are
a few publicly available ones, but you wouldn't be able to use them for
anything but legal reasons. Major corps and big mojo research institues
might have a Rating 8, and the biggest and baddest one I've dropped hints of
is a Rating 10 (held by the Druids of England).

The one problem with this approach is that it gives shamans (which aren't
restricted like this) a bigger advantage, but shamans can be constrained
through their totems.
Message no. 2
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:48:42 EST
I just love sets like this....

In a message dated 98-01-22 19:23:39 EST, robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> The solution is to restrict access to the all important libraries (for
> mages, at least). If a hermetic mage can't get access to anything beyond a
> Sorcery Library 4, for example, their power curve starts to level out a
> lot...

That is "A" solution, and not always the best, but definitely one of the
better ones. I've seen the rating of the library not only determine it's
cost, as in the SR BBB, but I've also seen it indirectly effect the
availability. Also, research material for magic that can lead to "deadly
level spells", can land somebody in the "controlled substances" levels of
crap. Now please understand, that we've also been known to use not only the
rating of the library, but the range of the library more frequently than some.
Research materials -can- be restricted according to end drain categories as
well.

And this is just "one" way to restrict a mage...

> In my games, a Rating 6 magical library is a holy grail, almost... there
are
> a few publicly available ones, but you wouldn't be able to use them for
> anything but legal reasons. Major corps and big mojo research institues
> might have a Rating 8, and the biggest and baddest one I've dropped hints
of
> is a Rating 10 (held by the Druids of England).

Ya know, even though I am a druidic member, I always find it interesting that
"the Druids" always have the larger rating anything magical, with the
exception of the IE supported elves...

> The one problem with this approach is that it gives shamans (which aren't
> restricted like this) a bigger advantage, but shamans can be constrained
> through their totems.

Yes, they can. But if a lodge of a certain power level is being constructed,
it will also gain some attention (and possible notariety) from other magical
beings within the general vicinity. I remember a guy who made a lodge for
Eage on a mountain that was shared by some thunderbirds...neat idea, liked the
symbology...then he suddenly discovered the birds "really liked his lodge for
nesting materials" (there was just some instinctive kinship ya know...).

-K


>
Message no. 3
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:57:36 -0500
On Fri, Jan 23, 1998 at 10:22:47AM +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
> s c rose writes:
> >IMO the magic system is SR has some holes one of them is the power
> >curve. Mages can become very
> >powerful by increasing in grade cyber based characters while starting
> >more powerful do not have
> >this advantage, getting better skills and upgrading cyberware is not
> >near the power boost that
> >a grade increase is for a mage in regard to cost...
>
>
> The solution is to restrict access to the all important libraries (for
> mages, at least). If a hermetic mage can't get access to anything beyond a
> Sorcery Library 4, for example, their power curve starts to level out a
> lot...
>
> In my games, a Rating 6 magical library is a holy grail, almost... there are
> a few publicly available ones, but you wouldn't be able to use them for
> anything but legal reasons. Major corps and big mojo research institues
> might have a Rating 8, and the biggest and baddest one I've dropped hints of
> is a Rating 10 (held by the Druids of England).
>
> The one problem with this approach is that it gives shamans (which aren't
> restricted like this) a bigger advantage, but shamans can be constrained
> through their totems.

This is very true. Why do some people seem to forget this.
If there are holes in the rules. Close them. A GM exists for Game balance.
You don't have to change or rewrite rules sometimes. Just use
them creatively. Remember if your players has something of value
(Level 6 library, level 5 foci etc) eventually someone is going
to decide its easier to remove them, and take it. Makes for
some fun adventures, new bad guys, etc.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 4
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:21:37 -0600
Lehlan Decker wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 1998 at 10:22:47AM +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
> > s c rose writes:
> > >IMO the magic system is SR has some holes one of them is the power
> > >curve. Mages can become very
> > >powerful by increasing in grade cyber based characters while starting
> > >more powerful do not have
> > >this advantage, getting better skills and upgrading cyberware is not
> > >near the power boost that
> > >a grade increase is for a mage in regard to cost...

>
> This is very true. Why do some people seem to forget this.
> If there are holes in the rules. Close them. A GM exists for Game balance.
> You don't have to change or rewrite rules sometimes. Just use
> them creatively. Remember if your players has something of value
> (Level 6 library, level 5 foci etc) eventually someone is going
> to decide its easier to remove them, and take it. Makes for
> some fun adventures, new bad guys, etc.

This is true and has been done already, How to get those access to the
high level magical libraries, Who has them and where they are etc. Those
things which are not well defined need expansion to make them work.
IMO this a very good thing it gives the GM something to be creative
with.


--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.
Message no. 5
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:28:58 -0500
On Fri, Jan 23, 1998 at 10:21:37AM -0600, s c rose wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 23, 1998 at 10:22:47AM +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
> > > s c rose writes:
> > > >IMO the magic system is SR has some holes one of them is the power
> > > >curve. Mages can become very
> > > >powerful by increasing in grade cyber based characters while starting
> > > >more powerful do not have
> > > >this advantage, getting better skills and upgrading cyberware is not
> > > >near the power boost that
> > > >a grade increase is for a mage in regard to cost...
>
> >
> > This is very true. Why do some people seem to forget this.
> > If there are holes in the rules. Close them. A GM exists for Game balance.
> > You don't have to change or rewrite rules sometimes. Just use
> > them creatively. Remember if your players has something of value
> > (Level 6 library, level 5 foci etc) eventually someone is going
> > to decide its easier to remove them, and take it. Makes for
> > some fun adventures, new bad guys, etc.
>
> This is true and has been done already, How to get those access to the
> high level magical libraries, Who has them and where they are etc. Those
> things which are not well defined need expansion to make them work.
> IMO this a very good thing it gives the GM something to be creative
> with.
>
The earlier message also says initiation gives a mage, two big of
a power boost. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree, but i've
taken to allowing gradual initiation, works well, and adds flavor.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 6
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:22:15 EST
In a message dated 98-01-22 19:23:36 EST, you write:

> The solution is to restrict access to the all important libraries (for
> mages, at least). If a hermetic mage can't get access to anything beyond a
> Sorcery Library 4, for example, their power curve starts to level out a
> lot...

There is also a loophole around that too ... a mage could go on a quest of
knowledge to design a spell ... and would not take as long to design either
... since quests take their rating in d6 hours also ...

Mike
Message no. 7
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:21:08 EST
In a message dated 98-01-22 19:23:36 EST, you write:

> In my games, a Rating 6 magical library is a holy grail, almost... there are
> a few publicly available ones, but you wouldn't be able to use them for
> anything but legal reasons. Major corps and big mojo research institues
> might have a Rating 8, and the biggest and baddest one I've dropped hints
of
> is a Rating 10 (held by the Druids of England).
>
> The one problem with this approach is that it gives shamans (which aren't
> restricted like this) a bigger advantage, but shamans can be constrained
> through their totems.

Another way that Shamans are restricted by is that the higher level medicine
lodges are also difficult to find ... and not to mention tracked as to whom
and where they are sold to ...

Mike
Message no. 8
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:19:31 -0500
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Mike Bobroff wrote:

> In a message dated 98-01-22 19:23:36 EST, you write:
>
> > The solution is to restrict access to the all important libraries (for
> > mages, at least). If a hermetic mage can't get access to anything beyond a
> > Sorcery Library 4, for example, their power curve starts to level out a
> > lot...
>
> There is also a loophole around that too ... a mage could go on a quest of
> knowledge to design a spell ... and would not take as long to design either
> ... since quests take their rating in d6 hours also ...

However, astral quests can be rather dangerous, especially for high force
spells. True, a mage would have little trouble taking a jaunt into the
metaplanes to learn a level 3 or 4 spell, but learning a force 8 spell
quite difficult. Secondly, a mage would have to be an initiate, and while
a mage could self-initiate, most join groups, and most groups maintain
magic theory libraries. Astral quests, IMO, would only be used in
emergencies, i.e., you have a friend dying of some disease or slow acting
poison, and you need a cure spell to heal him. Not having the time to
learn the spell by normal means, you would risk seeking the knowledge in
an astral quest.
Message no. 9
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:24:06 EST
In a message dated 98-01-23 23:22:08 EST, you write:

> However, astral quests can be rather dangerous, especially for high force
> spells. True, a mage would have little trouble taking a jaunt into the
> metaplanes to learn a level 3 or 4 spell, but learning a force 8 spell
> quite difficult.

True, that is why I normally only do quests for low force spell (anything
lower than a 6) ...

> Secondly, a mage would have to be an initiate, and while
> a mage could self-initiate, most join groups, and most groups maintain
> magic theory libraries.

Yes .. the mage would have to be an initiate ... or be travelling with someone
who is an initiate ...

And as for why go on a quest of knowledge to design a spell ... what if the
basis for the spell is not in the library the group has ... it means the quest
takes longer than normal (much longer) but the spell still gets designed ...
the metaplanes are the ultimate magical library ... limited only by how gutsy
the questor happens to be ...

> Astral quests, IMO, would only be used in
> emergencies, i.e., you have a friend dying of some disease or slow acting
> poison, and you need a cure spell to heal him. Not having the time to
> learn the spell by normal means, you would risk seeking the knowledge in
> an astral quest.

This was also something I did with Herc ... whenever the group needed a spell
for a certain purpose he would go on a quest for a low force version of the
spell to both learn and design it ...

Mike
Message no. 10
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:10:56 -0600
Lehlan Decker wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 1998 at 10:21:37AM -0600, s c rose wrote:
> > Lehlan Decker wrote:

<Snip>
> >
> > This is true and has been done already, How to get those access to the
> > high level magical libraries, Who has them and where they are etc. Those
> > things which are not well defined need expansion to make them work.
> > IMO this a very good thing it gives the GM something to be creative
> > with.
> >
> The earlier message also says initiation gives a mage, two big of
> a power boost. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree, but i've
> taken to allowing gradual initiation, works well, and adds flavor.

This is a great idea thanks, Initiation can and should take time and
resources
and should be a great consideration in how high the mage can advance in
regard
to a time frame...

--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.
Message no. 11
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:28:29 -0500
On Sat, Jan 24, 1998 at 12:10:56PM -0600, s c rose wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 23, 1998 at 10:21:37AM -0600, s c rose wrote:
> > > Lehlan Decker wrote:
>
> <Snip>
> > >
> > > This is true and has been done already, How to get those access to the
> > > high level magical libraries, Who has them and where they are etc. Those
> > > things which are not well defined need expansion to make them work.
> > > IMO this a very good thing it gives the GM something to be creative
> > > with.
> > >
> > The earlier message also says initiation gives a mage, two big of
> > a power boost. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree, but i've
> > taken to allowing gradual initiation, works well, and adds flavor.
>
> This is a great idea thanks, Initiation can and should take time and
> resources
> and should be a great consideration in how high the mage can advance in
> regard
> to a time frame...
>
It also gives players reason's to search out different groups.
Only certain groups/masters know some powers.
It adds some more elements to roleplay and slows things down a bit.
Characters have to think before they initiate. :)
Another thing this does is, balance out Level 1+2 Inits vs regular
mages.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:43:59 +1000
Mike Bobroff writes:
>> The solution is to restrict access to the all important libraries (for
>> mages, at least). If a hermetic mage can't get access to anything beyond
a
>> Sorcery Library 4, for example, their power curve starts to level out a
>> lot...
>
>There is also a loophole around that too ... a mage could go on a quest of
>knowledge to design a spell ... and would not take as long to design either
>... since quests take their rating in d6 hours also ...


This has it's limits, too...
a) you wouldn't be able to get a high force spell very readily (I, for one,
would not want to try a Rating 9 Astral Quest);
b) you can't modify a low-force variant as you don't have the spell formula;
and
c) IIRC, a mage needs access to a Sorcery library of sufficent level to
raise his Sorcery skill (might be wrong on this... been too long).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons.
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:46:00 +1000
AirWisp writes:
>This was also something I did with Herc ... whenever the group needed a
spell
>for a certain purpose he would go on a quest for a low force version of the
>spell to both learn and design it ...


Just remember that you don't get the spell formulae when you quest, so you
can't jazz up the spell later.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons.
Message no. 14
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power curve of Mages
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:25:32 EST
In a message dated 98-01-26 17:51:40 EST, robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> This has it's limits, too...
> a) you wouldn't be able to get a high force spell very readily (I, for one,
> would not want to try a Rating 9 Astral Quest);

They aren't fun, no...

> b) you can't modify a low-force variant as you don't have the spell
formula;
> and

Not true, you can do it if you choose to do so...the "Quest of Knowledge" can
be for design and/or learning...

> c) IIRC, a mage needs access to a Sorcery library of sufficent level to
> raise his Sorcery skill (might be wrong on this... been too long).

This one I don't know. I suppose that a magician could do this if they wanted
to on the Metaplanes, however the rules I would impose were I GM are NOT what
people want to know about. Shaman's get it easy...Quest to Metaplane
(Totemic), while a Hermetic would have to perform the "Four Elemental" quests
variation, just like in initiation...
-K

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