Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "A. Danforth" <mmd@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Power gamers...
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 11:59:41 -0500
---------------->
They are probably not just power gamers, but x-ADND or CHAMPS munchkins
who were kicked out of their gamin group for being rules lawyers.

I detest that.
---------------->

I'm sorry I have to say this publicly, but fuck you.

You don't know anything about these people, and it is incredibly unfair to make
assumptions. I don't understand why you feel that it is important to insult
Kurt Rauscher, when he was just asking a question!!! He didn't say he'd done
it, he wanted to see if it was possible, because as someone stated, SR has some
of the strangest rules in the history or RPGs. I would very much appreciate
it if you did not flame people for asking questions, and if you would not insult
my friends.

And I do not know what CHAMPS is, and I do not care to.. I don't think Kurt
does either. I've also never played ADND. And sometimes it does help to be
a
(damn!)
rulse lawyer, because it's not much fun to play a game wrong, especially when
yknow that you're doing it wrong, and you know how to do it right.

Well, I await your flames....
Message no. 2
From: "J. Earl Williams" <IH46@****.BITNET>
Subject: Power gamers...
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 11:48:28 MST
> does either. I've also never played ADND. to be
> And sometimes it does help [to be (?)] a (damn!)
> rulse lawyer, because it's not much fun to play a game wrong, especially when
> yknow that you're doing it wrong, and you know how to do it right.
Therein lies the rub. When is it helping clarify the game, and when is
it "rules-lawyer"ing? (This isn't a flame. Just a question) I have
come up with different interpretations of rules, which are in the letter
(and possibly the spirit) of the rules, and have been accused of being
a "screwmonger". (No comments, Flare). When are you pointing out
problems in the game system, and when are you being a rules lawyer?

Also, when is using the rules considered "screwing" the system? Is my
Mag-3's and smartgun link (base T# of 2, no matter the distance) a screw
?? When is it a screw, and when is it just making the most of the rules
? And I really don't want to hear about "spirit". It says nothing
about whether or not my "advantage" is in the spirit of the rules. There
are many screws, AND many interpretations! What about my massive
control pool? Is it a screw since I can roll a 26-die position test? Is
adding all those things to my car a screw, or is it just using the rules
to their full ability?

No flames, please.
>
> Well, I await your flames....
None from me! (yet...;)

---
J. Earl Williams
Up the Brotherhood!
Message no. 3
From: Matt Dunne <stretch@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Power gamers
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 18:57:30 +0000
Iv'e got one power gamer in my playing group. He insists on carrying all
his weapons around with him(like he'd be able to walk carryin a grnade
pistol, combat shot gun, barret sniper rile, etc all a once.)

Talking of the barret sniper rifle, he uses it as a multi purpose weapon.
Every sign of trouble out comes the barret and lets do 400D damage.:) I
think the idea is with teh Barret that you use it like it supposed to be,
say from a roof top in an assasination attemp taking careful aim with
whatever sight you have attacked, not carry it around with you and use it
like a shotgun.

Iv'e made complaints during game s time to the GM but he just gose with the
flow, now every one seems to be joining as if competing and the thing have
gotten out of hand.




Cheers,

Matt Dunne.

stretch@*********.co.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In today's world where righteous and lawful ideals are seldom rewarded it
is better to be the predator rather than the prey." Matt Dunne on rush hour
traffic 1995.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 13:55:37 -0600
On Wed, 11 Jan 1995, Matt Dunne wrote:

> Talking of the barret sniper rifle, he uses it as a multi purpose weapon.
> Every sign of trouble out comes the barret and lets do 400D damage.:) I
> think the idea is with teh Barret that you use it like it supposed to be,
> say from a roof top in an assasination attemp taking careful aim with
> whatever sight you have attacked, not carry it around with you and use it
> like a shotgun.
>

You can always apply the rule for the Ranger Arms to the barret. If it
is used in non-sniping method it can gain a +2 to every target number.
Might make him think twice.

-Andrew
Message no. 5
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 12:07:15 +0100
Matt wrote:
> Talking of the barret sniper rifle, he uses it as a multi purpose weapon.
> Every sign of trouble out comes the barret and lets do 400D damage.:) I
> think the idea is with teh Barret that you use it like it supposed to be,
> say from a roof top in an assasination attemp taking careful aim with
> whatever sight you have attacked, not carry it around with you and use it
> like a shotgun.
Somewhere I read that carrying sniper rifles around in combat situation
will result in a modifier (+ something) per combat round carrying.
This should reflect that the carefully balance of the weapon is destroyed
and that it must be adjusted before firing again. Sounds good to me,
mainly because the damage of these things is so high.
bye,
Stefan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 12:29:13 +0100
>Talking of the barret sniper rifle, he uses it as a multi purpose weapon.
>Every sign of trouble out comes the barret and lets do 400D damage.:) I
>think the idea is with teh Barret that you use it like it supposed to be,
>say from a roof top in an assasination attemp taking careful aim with
>whatever sight you have attacked, not carry it around with you and use it
>like a shotgun.
>
>Iv'e made complaints during game s time to the GM but he just gose with the
>flow, now every one seems to be joining as if competing and the thing have
>gotten out of hand.

Let your GM read the bit about the Ranger Arms SM-3 in the black book, and
ask him if he thinks it applies to all sniper rifles. If he says he doesn't
think it does, ask him why.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 7
From: Susan Sherman <SSHERMAN@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 12:16:23 -0500
Your GM can always do what mine does: just make the baddies even
nastier, of course this might get out of hand, but in my group its kept the
truly powerful weapons out of the game. One of the characters had a panther
assualt cannon and one of the characters grabbed it and fired at another character
who had opened fire on him. Three characters got scraged mine, another newbie, and
a character who'd been around for a long time. But that's what happens when your
characters are too powerful.

SilverFire

ssherman@****.stevens-tech.edu

Bite off more than you can chew, then chew as if your life depended upon it.
IT DOES.
Message no. 8
From: Shiva <WELLCHAR@***.ISU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 15:49:20 MST
*Sigh* sounds like a GM that I encountered playing HERO, I was new
into the game and this dude had let his players get so powerful that
it was reduclous <One character in particular had complete and total
control over time> And here I am a lil 500 point char. getting dumped
in the middle of his bid to start the game over. <Bunch of invis.
Creatures that do 6 dice of damage if they touch you and 36 dice if
you kill them> I didn't play HERO for YEARS after that. I guess what
I'm tring to say is Making the Badguys badder isn't a solution to the
problem if the GM is not willing to tone down the power and equipment
that the players are amassing. If that character gets a Panther
Assualt Cannon then make ammo harder to find if you don't want them
blowing everything up with it. If they stumble across a Panzer then
start hitting them with HUGE repair bills just to keep the thing
operational. <Not to mentiom Ammo costs and rarity> Or be even
Nastier still. Hit the "Armed for Dragon" group with a recon mission
where they don't get paid if they use any weapon other than knockout
drugs and sleep spells. Then giggle as they blunder though the entire
adventure griping because they had to leave all that kewl armament
behind. :-> Just a few ideas from yer friendly neighborhood
Incarnation of Destruction and Creation
> Your GM can always do what mine does: just make the baddies
even
> nastier, of course this might get out of hand, but in my group its kept the
> truly powerful weapons out of the game. One of the characters had a panther
> assualt cannon and one of the characters grabbed it and fired at another character
> who had opened fire on him. Three characters got scraged mine, another newbie, and
> a character who'd been around for a long time. But that's what happens when your
> characters are too powerful.
>
> SilverFire
>
> ssherman@****.stevens-tech.edu
>
> Bite off more than you can chew, then chew as if your life depended upon it.
> IT DOES.
Shiva
Message no. 9
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 20:36:41 -30000
On Thu, 12 Jan 1995, Shiva wrote:

> *Sigh* sounds like a GM that I encountered playing HERO, I was new
> into the game and this dude had let his players get so powerful that
> it was reduclous <One character in particular had complete and total
> control over time> And here I am a lil 500 point char. getting dumped
> in the middle of his bid to start the game over. <Bunch of invis.
> Creatures that do 6 dice of damage if they touch you and 36 dice if
> you kill them> I didn't play HERO for YEARS after that. I guess what
> I'm tring to say is Making the Badguys badder isn't a solution to the
> problem if the GM is not willing to tone down the power and equipment
> that the players are amassing. If that character gets a Panther
> Assualt Cannon then make ammo harder to find if you don't want them
> blowing everything up with it. If they stumble across a Panzer then
> start hitting them with HUGE repair bills just to keep the thing
> operational. <Not to mentiom Ammo costs and rarity> Or be even
> Nastier still. Hit the "Armed for Dragon" group with a recon mission
> where they don't get paid if they use any weapon other than knockout
> drugs and sleep spells. Then giggle as they blunder though the entire
> adventure griping because they had to leave all that kewl armament
> behind. :-> Just a few ideas from yer friendly neighborhood
> Incarnation of Destruction and Creation

As the Gm in question, let me point out some things. I have the campaign
is at the SMG and armor jacket stage. I have run this campaign
continuously for two years for some of the characters, and they have yet
to give me *nearly* the problems thjat I have read about on this list.
Yes, the troll street samurai has a Panther assault cannon. I can count
on the fingers of one hand the number of times that the character has
carried it, and I know how many times the trigger has been pulled (twice....)
There are about three reasons that I can point to and say, "That is why
my game works." One, my players are *not* rules-rapers slavering after
that last modifier that will make them god on earth. Two, I run a
campaign where cocealability is a weapon's primary feature. It is, after
all, a SHADOWrun..... not an Urban Brawl Game (although I had fun with
_Killing Glare_ :) ). Third, I have told them that the opposition is
tailored to the level of the party. The opposition *will* have armor
that can slow down the weapons the party is using, and *will* carry
weaponry that can pierce that level of armor. On the other hand, the
players may find it easy to jack up their firepower and remain
concealable (EX explosive and APDS is a wonderful thing), they find it
much harder to conceal heavy armor...

Fourth (oops) is the plain and simple fact my players understand that
this is *not* *d&D, nor even CP2020, this is Shadowrun in a uncaring
universe.

As a matter of fact, in the Three years I have been running with these
people (the first campaing ended after a year), only two PC have been
killed, and one other forced to leave the group because of NPC
treachery. And I regretted the PCs' deaths. (happened because one was
thought controlled and shot at the rest of the group. One of the PC's
who returned fire was forced to leave because the character was new to
the team, and was shooting at a founding member of the team, and the
other KIA was in the same situation, except he was the guy who actaully
killed the thought controlled PC.)

Of the many sessions I have run, the two best involved very little
combat. One was the Ivy & Chrome module, where the two Pc's who I was
Gm'ing at the time, avoided every single combat encounter by *THINKING*!!
And the other was when the team RAN AWAY from a firefight because they
didn't need to be there.

It works. In Harlequin; the Spirit run, when they were offered a bonus
if they kept casualties to a minumum, there was no griping at all. They
didn't say, "Well, we get more money, so I guess we should go get some
non-lethal equipment." Nope, they checked tha charge on their tasers,
checked the expiration date on the Lethe(TM) toxin, and headed out.
Total standard ammo on that run - between 10 people - was far less than
100 rounds, most of it for SMG's and pistols. They had this stuff on
hand because it is far easier to conceal non-lethal weapons, and far less
dangeraous to be caught carrying, than it is to conceal a Vindicator or a
predator.

Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."
Message no. 10
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:16:58 -0500
Quicksilver writes: [stuff about keeping the game sane and rational]

Bravo. It sounds like you and I have very similar outlooks on
things. My campaign has been running almost continuously for four
years. In all of that time, by far the largest number of rounds fired
have been out of pistols, if any rounds were fired at all. The players
are *very* careful about the concealability of the things they carry
around because they have to be to survive. Don't get me wrong; when the
situation dictates, the combat shotguns and sniper rifles come out of the
closets and storage sheds, but they are not every day armament.
There is one easy way to deal with power gamers, and that is to
give them enough rope to hang themselves. Eventually in their thirst for
munchkinism, they will screw up, and usually it will be in a most
unpleasant way.

Marc
Message no. 11
From: Shiva <WELLCHAR@***.ISU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:42:44 MST
Well then sir Quicksilver sounds like you run a good group. I was
just commenting on the vein of "Got powerfull PC hit them with more
powerfull enemys." Esculation like that gets outa hand REALL quick.
Most of my group use non-lethal force themselves <Excepting for the
Phys Adept with the killing touch.> And have gotten a rep for doing
such. So now if they are recognized the Corp guards don't fight as if
their lives depend on it becasue they don't. They will break ranks
and run more often becasue they know they wont get shot in the
back. Also the Phftt of the dart rifle is much more conducive to
secret ops than the "BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! RATTATTATTATTAT!" of the SMG
or Pistol. <Yes I know that they could just get sliencers and do away
with that but you've got to look at the people in the group.>
Shiva
Message no. 12
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 00:06:10 -30000
On Thu, 12 Jan 1995, Shiva wrote:

> Well then sir Quicksilver sounds like you run a good group. I was
> just commenting on the vein of "Got powerfull PC hit them with more
> powerfull enemys." Esculation like that gets outa hand REALL quick.

Actually, my point was that the threat of such escalation, reinforced
with a minor touch of force, has kept the power spiral down

[...]

Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."
Message no. 13
From: Susan Sherman <SSHERMAN@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 00:35:53 -0500
I didn't mean to make it sound the way it came out. All I was trying
to say was the fact that my GM has managed to keep munchkinism out of the game.
I didn't mean for my message to sound so negative. Sorry about the mis-
conceptions.

SilverFire
ssherman@***.stevens-tech.edu

Bite off more than you can chew, then chew as if your life depended upon it.
IT DOES.
Message no. 14
From: Shiva <WELLCHAR@***.ISU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 02:32:11 MST
It has worked for your Group Sir Quicksilver <Threat of esculation
and a touch of force.> But I've gamed with people that would laugh at
the THREAT of exculation. Then bitch and moan when it arives. <I've
never threatened my players I promice them.> And I'm glad it has. But
as a rule that practice is Null if you have even 1 power Gamer in
your group. <I had a dude INSIST that he be allowed to start with a
Panzer and 5 or 6 Million Neuyen of body mods then stalk out and
refuse to play when I said no, All I said was good ridiance to bad
rubish.> And now before this begins to look like a flame war <Which I
assure you it's not.> I'll drop the subject and allow you to have the
last word if you desire :->

Shiva
Message no. 15
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 12:07:51 -30000
On Fri, 13 Jan 1995, Shiva wrote:

> It has worked for your Group Sir Quicksilver <Threat of esculation
> and a touch of force.> But I've gamed with people that would laugh at
> the THREAT of exculation. Then bitch and moan when it arives. <I've
> never threatened my players I promice them.> And I'm glad it has. But
> as a rule that practice is Null if you have even 1 power Gamer in
> your group. <I had a dude INSIST that he be allowed to start with a
> Panzer and 5 or 6 Million Neuyen of body mods then stalk out and
> refuse to play when I said no, All I said was good ridiance to bad
> rubish.> And now before this begins to look like a flame war <Which I
> assure you it's not.> I'll drop the subject and allow you to have the
> last word if you desire :->
>
> Shiva
>

I apologize if it seems I was flaming, both to the list for wasting
bandwidth, and to anyone whom I scorched with the electron flame.

Had I a player who said the same thing to me, I would have taken the same
route. But what I try to do with my campaign is set up runs where it is
impossible, either for social or security reasons, for the team to carry
their heavy bang-bangs and armor. Whenever the team has to go somewhere,
they try to find out the general grade of security, and then carry no
more equipment than is appropriate for that sec level. That isn't to say
the assault shotguns don't come into play in the security zone Z runs,
but it also means that Armed and Unarmed combat play as large a role as
do Firearms, and (especially) Gunnery. (Which is almost never used).

Anyway, the best comment is that every gaming group is different, and
must be treated differently.


Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."
Message no. 16
From: Piperoglou Stefanos <sneakabout@***.FORTHNET.GR>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 11:04:48 +0200
> Well then sir Quicksilver sounds like you run a good group. I was
> just commenting on the vein of "Got powerfull PC hit them with more
> powerfull enemys." Esculation like that gets outa hand REALL quick.
> Most of my group use non-lethal force themselves <Excepting for the
> Phys Adept with the killing touch.> And have gotten a rep for doing
> such. So now if they are recognized the Corp guards don't fight as if
> their lives depend on it becasue they don't. They will break ranks
> and run more often becasue they know they wont get shot in the
> back. Also the Phftt of the dart rifle is much more conducive to
> secret ops than the "BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! RATTATTATTATTAT!" of the SMG
> or Pistol. <Yes I know that they could just get sliencers and do away
> with that but you've got to look at the people in the group.>
>
One of the players in my group once had a runner whose primary weapon
was the Ares Squirt. He had a collection of clips on a belt around his
waist (some for the others, and some (!) for himself) with some nice
stuff, most with some DMSO ... and was pretty lethal like that
(Firearms Specialization + Bio/Cyber came out to about 9).

But when the sh** really hit the fan he just popped the end of his
right index finger off, uncoiling a meter of monofilament. Now THAT
was deadly. He was a real min/maxer, and with all the wares inside
him, he could roll up to 23 dice for a melee action if he used all his
Dice Pools. That means he could take 4-5 opponents in a SINGLE melee
action (and to hell with the 10+ target numbers, with 20 dice you're
BOUND to get some of them) and do 10D damage... you watched their
heads roll on the floor in a single action. Fumbles? Who can actually
roll 21 aces in a single roll? No way!

Cya,
Steve
Message no. 17
From: Matt Dunne <stretch@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 08:10:37 GMT
>Quicksilver writes: [stuff about keeping the game sane and rational]
>
> Bravo. It sounds like you and I have very similar outlooks on
>things. My campaign has been running almost continuously for four
>years. In all of that time, by far the largest number of rounds fired
>have been out of pistols, if any rounds were fired at all. The players
>are *very* careful about the concealability of the things they carry
>around because they have to be to survive. Don't get me wrong; when the
>situation dictates, the combat shotguns and sniper rifles come out of the
>closets and storage sheds, but they are not every day armament.
> There is one easy way to deal with power gamers, and that is to
>give them enough rope to hang themselves. Eventually in their thirst for
>munchkinism, they will screw up, and usually it will be in a most
>unpleasant way.
>
>Marc
>
>

The conceilability point is another bone of contetion with me, my GM will
let people carry any weapon and wear any armour.

The one player that my gripe is about walks round the streets of seattle in
milspec armour, this brings two points to mind:

1. Where did he get it from and at what cost?(why did the GM allow him to
get it).

2. Where are lone star while he's swanning around looking like a human tank?

If I sugest that we try and be descreet this particular player starts saying
'no, i'm taking my barret sniper rifle, my combat shotgun, 2xares predators,
a die coated katana, 400 apds, cougar hunting knife(diecoated of course)'.
The GM does say anthing and the roleplaying session breaks down into a full
scale argument.


Cheers,

Matt Dunne.

stretch@*********.co.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In today's world where righteous and lawful ideals are seldom rewarded it
is better to be the predator rather than the prey." Matt Dunne on rush hour
traffic 1995.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 11:44:12 +0100
>The conceilability point is another bone of contetion with me, my GM will
>let people carry any weapon and wear any armour.
>
>The one player that my gripe is about walks round the streets of seattle in
>milspec armour, this brings two points to mind:
>
>1. Where did he get it from and at what cost?(why did the GM allow him to
>get it).
>
>2. Where are lone star while he's swanning around looking like a human tank?
>
>If I sugest that we try and be descreet this particular player starts saying
>'no, i'm taking my barret sniper rifle, my combat shotgun, 2xares predators,
>a die coated katana, 400 apds, cougar hunting knife(diecoated of course)'.
>The GM does say anthing and the roleplaying session breaks down into a full
>scale argument.

Maybe you should sit down and talk with him and your GM. I'm speaking as an
SR GM, and I also let my players get anything they want, can pay for, and
roll the Availability for. That means that if they try really hard they will
get milspec armor and panther cannons and I don't know what. Our sam carries
pretty much the same sort of gear as "that" player in your group (ours only
has an MA2100 instead of a Barret), but he is not stupid enough to carry it
anywhere if he doesn't _really_ think like he's going to need it -- and only
if it's somewhere he can get it inside without being noticed.
But I have made it clear that carrying such toys on the street where they
are visible for everyone is a quick way to die, cause the first Lone Star
that sees him will do three things: 1) call backup; 2) shoot the hell out of
him; and 3) put what's left into a plastic bag. He had to agree that he
wouldn't survive, and so now he keeps everything hidden until he needs it.
As "standard" weapons he only carries a pistol and an SMG under a long coat.
Both with a concealability of about 5.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 19
From: Matt Dunne <stretch@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 11:00:46 GMT
>>The conceilability point is another bone of contetion with me, my GM will
>>let people carry any weapon and wear any armour.
>>
>>The one player that my gripe is about walks round the streets of seattle in
>>milspec armour, this brings two points to mind:
>>
>>1. Where did he get it from and at what cost?(why did the GM allow him to
>>get it).
>>
>>2. Where are lone star while he's swanning around looking like a human tank?
>>
>>If I sugest that we try and be descreet this particular player starts saying
>>'no, i'm taking my barret sniper rifle, my combat shotgun, 2xares predators,
>>a die coated katana, 400 apds, cougar hunting knife(diecoated of course)'.
>>The GM does say anthing and the roleplaying session breaks down into a full
>>scale argument.
>
>Maybe you should sit down and talk with him and your GM. I'm speaking as an
>SR GM, and I also let my players get anything they want, can pay for, and
>roll the Availability for. That means that if they try really hard they will
>get milspec armor and panther cannons and I don't know what. Our sam carries
>pretty much the same sort of gear as "that" player in your group (ours only
>has an MA2100 instead of a Barret), but he is not stupid enough to carry it
>anywhere if he doesn't _really_ think like he's going to need it -- and only
>if it's somewhere he can get it inside without being noticed.
>But I have made it clear that carrying such toys on the street where they
>are visible for everyone is a quick way to die, cause the first Lone Star
>that sees him will do three things: 1) call backup; 2) shoot the hell out of
>him; and 3) put what's left into a plastic bag. He had to agree that he
>wouldn't survive, and so now he keeps everything hidden until he needs it.
>As "standard" weapons he only carries a pistol and an SMG under a long coat.
>Both with a concealability of about 5.
>
>

Taking your GM on the side and saying hey John's power gaming big time here
is not the done thing, I can't beleive it it's not like I suffer in silence
we''ll have an argument about it every gaming session.

I could try killing his character to piss him off but he insists on have
ridiculously powerful charaters with all his skill in combat categories and
anyway killing him is not the answer it would make me as bad as him.

Cheers,

Matt Dunne.

stretch@*********.co.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In today's world where righteous and lawful ideals are seldom rewarded it
is better to be the predator rather than the prey." Matt Dunne on rush hour
traffic 1995.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Geoff Gerrietts <Sieffre@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 02:28:04 -0500
I think the issue immediately reared its head when I showed a newby the
Shadowtech sourcebook. He was a Battletech vet and a scarred AD&D player, but
man, when he got his hands on bioware...

So the process became accounting. And fortunately for me, I can run the
numbers with the best of them. My response? Let them do what they will. Then
turn around and tell them what they got comin' after them. Their actions *do*
have consequences, and even the troll with the 17 body dice and the milspec
armor can't take two shots from Teachdaire when I've given him full power.
Even if he could, seven helicopters with AGM's can take him out just as
quick, even with BAD riggers. So what was the response? Uh, let's just farm
these guys out as special circumstance consultants. And I say ok. As you
RE-generate characters, keep the following guidelines in mind...

My big question is how does everyone handle the procedure of raising
abilities. Right now, it just seems really raw. 1 x new rating? Give me a brea
k. A year from now, all these sammies are gonna be godlings!

<G>
Message no. 21
From: Flint <Mathieu.Dhondt@***.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 10:12:30 +0100
On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, Geoff Gerrietts wrote:

> My big question is how does everyone handle the procedure of raising
> abilities. Right now, it just seems really raw. 1 x new rating? Give me a brea
> k. A year from now, all these sammies are gonna be godlings!
How, how! Cost is 1x new rating if that new rating is still within the
racial maximum. Otherwise it's 1.5x new rating or something (if the GM
approves). Reread the Raising Skills chapter (I read it in the black
book, don't know what version you're using though)

Flint.

"My boy, if ever you are lost at sea, drop right in and think of me."
- J. Heller
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 11:33:41 +0100
>Taking your GM on the side and saying hey John's power gaming big time here
>is not the done thing, I can't beleive it it's not like I suffer in silence
>we''ll have an argument about it every gaming session.
>
>I could try killing his character to piss him off but he insists on have
>ridiculously powerful charaters with all his skill in combat categories and
>anyway killing him is not the answer it would make me as bad as him.

Though I've never seen it happen in a group I was involved in, I would
_strongly_ advise against intentionally killing off other PCs. IMO the only
thing you'd accomplish is that everyone turns against you, maybe even kick
you out of the group. (If you do want to kill him, you could try to shoot at
an enemy who's in front of him, but only if the TN is so high you'd almost
certainly miss, and then hope the stray shot fries the PC.)

But it sounds to me like your GM doesn't listen. If you complain about
something every gaming session, he's got to be aware of the problem. You
could try to do the same thing that other player does, carry so much gear
that it gets ridiculous -- in other words, pretend you're in a fantasy game
and carry _all_ your stuff with you wherever you go (have you seen that Ral
Partha figure of the "Adventurer"? Have your character look like that :) My
point is that maybe they then realize what they're doing.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 11:33:35 +0100
>So the process became accounting. And fortunately for me, I can run the
>numbers with the best of them. My response? Let them do what they will. Then
>turn around and tell them what they got comin' after them. Their actions *do*
>have consequences, and even the troll with the 17 body dice and the milspec
>armor can't take two shots from Teachdaire when I've given him full power.
>Even if he could, seven helicopters with AGM's can take him out just as
>quick, even with BAD riggers. So what was the response? Uh, let's just farm
>these guys out as special circumstance consultants. And I say ok. As you
>RE-generate characters, keep the following guidelines in mind...

I think you're overlooking a minor point: you don't need AVMs to take out a
troll in milspec armor. A mana bolt would do nicely.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 24
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 12:24:46 +0100
On Sat, 14 Jan Steve wrote:

> One of the players in my group once had a runner whose primary weapon
> was the Ares Squirt. He had a collection of clips on a belt around his
> waist (some for the others, and some (!) for himself) with some nice
> stuff, most with some DMSO ... and was pretty lethal like that
> (Firearms Specialization + Bio/Cyber came out to about 9).

The squirt gun is one of the most underrated guns in the whole book.
This thingy is lethal! One of my players made a character
who was completely into poisons, and did he caught me with my pants
down the first time he used it. Frag, everytime he shot the result
were "one guard down, three to go".

Greetings,

Martin
Message no. 25
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 21:12:32 +0930
>
> On Sat, 14 Jan Steve wrote:
>
> > One of the players in my group once had a runner whose primary weapon
> > was the Ares Squirt. He had a collection of clips on a belt around his
> > waist (some for the others, and some (!) for himself) with some nice
> > stuff, most with some DMSO ... and was pretty lethal like that
> > (Firearms Specialization + Bio/Cyber came out to about 9).
>
> The squirt gun is one of the most underrated guns in the whole book.
> This thingy is lethal! One of my players made a character
> who was completely into poisons, and did he caught me with my pants
> down the first time he used it. Frag, everytime he shot the result
> were "one guard down, three to go".
>
I had a campaign once where damn near every runner thought Narcojects were
the best thing since sliced bread. I encouraged this attitude by having
corps not get so peeved with runners who didn't go round murdering guards
everywhere (mainly by saying corp forces responded with non-lethal force as
well). Eventually, however, I got so sick of even lousy shots hitting and
knocking out guards that the corps in Seattle "responded to a new pattern
of attacks", by giving their guards immunisation against Narcojects, and
broad-band at sensitive sites. Expensive, but effective. (Not every guard
would have it, just some key personnel, like gate keepers.)

> Greetings,
>
> Martin
>


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 26
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 13:12:31 +0100
On Sun, 15 Jan, Matt Dunne wrote:

> The conceilability point is another bone of contetion with me, my GM will
> let people carry any weapon and wear any armour.
>
> The one player that my gripe is about walks round the streets of seattle in
> milspec armour, this brings two points to mind:
>
> 1. Where did he get it from and at what cost?(why did the GM allow him to
> get it).

I allow my players to buy or steal anything they get their dirty
little hands on. Luckily the rules act in your favor on this subject,
because the realy good stuff is hard to get. One of my players just
managed to obtain a Barret (still waiting for it to be delivered) but
the bullets could not be found (he, he, he). So by the time he got the
bullets, he will use it so sparingly that; most of the time he leaves
it at home; or doesn't use it because he's afraid he needs it more
later on in the adventure.

> 2. Where are lone star while he's swanning around looking like a human tank?

Keeping an eye on him, and meanwhile getting a banshee with AP-
missiles on the scene (at least that would happen when you're a
player in my games) :-).

> If I sugest that we try and be descreet this particular player starts saying
> 'no, i'm taking my barret sniper rifle, my combat shotgun, 2xares predators,
> a die coated katana, 400 apds, cougar hunting knife(diecoated of course)'.
> The GM does say anthing and the roleplaying session breaks down into a full
> scale argument.

I would say that the problem you have is caused by your GM. If he
doesn't want to play the game the way its supposed to be (like you
futher clarified in your later posts) then you're out of options. The
things you could do are:
1. Show him all the mails we send to the list about this subject.
2. Start your own game the way you like it, and if you're lucky
(and/or a good GM :-) the other players will maybe see the light.
3. And your last option (not recommended) find another playing group.
The way you descibed the playing sessions aren't much fun, as most of
the time you seem to be argueing.

Greetings,

Martin
Message no. 27
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 13:26:55 -0700
On Sun, 15 Jan 1995, Matt Dunne wrote:

>
> The conceilability point is another bone of contetion with me, my GM will
> let people carry any weapon and wear any armour.
>
Very true. But it only works if the GM enforces it.

> The one player that my gripe is about walks round the streets of seattle in
> milspec armour, this brings two points to mind:
>
> 1. Where did he get it from and at what cost?(why did the GM allow him to
> get it).
>
Getting it isn't all that hard, if you have enough money. Almost
everyone in our group has milspec armor. We don't stroll the streets
with it on though.

> 2. Where are lone star while he's swanning around looking like a human tank?
>
Hiding in terror? I don't know, because this is the sort of thing that
calls out the full tactical squad, to kill the stupid slag.

> If I sugest that we try and be descreet this particular player starts saying
> 'no, i'm taking my barret sniper rifle, my combat shotgun, 2xares predators,
> a die coated katana, 400 apds, cougar hunting knife(diecoated of course)'.
> The GM does say anthing and the roleplaying session breaks down into a full
> scale argument.
>
My only ideas are a)remind everyone of the encumbrance rules in SRII. I
doubt this guy could run very fast wearing the armor and carrying all
that gear, and b)get a new GM. If he's allowing this kind of crap to
continue, he doesn't sound like a very good GM to me, but that's IMNSHO.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 28
From: "Stephanos J. Piperoglou" <sneakabout@***.FORTHNET.GR>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 22:04:06 +0000
On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, Geoff Gerrietts wrote:

> So what was the response? Uh, let's just farm
> these guys out as special circumstance consultants. And I say ok. As you
> RE-generate characters, keep the following guidelines in mind...

clap clap

> My big question is how does everyone handle the procedure of raising
> abilities. Right now, it just seems really raw. 1 x new rating? Give me a brea
> k. A year from now, all these sammies are gonna be godlings!

a) You give too much Karma
b) You MUST give them a LOT of chances to use that last-ditch rule (don't
remember what it's called) were a point or two of Karma can save your skin.

Some people think "You can delete their NuYen, you can strip off their
weapons, you can eat up their Essence (just ask :-> ), but you can't get
to their Karma". Beep. Ever notice how the good guys always win in most
films, but they get past the thousand-to-one odds a couple of times along
th way? Just put him in a certain-death (or certain end-of-career anyway)
situation and tell him "You know, you ARE up to your neck in drek, but if
you wanna spare a couple o' Karma points, your projecting wiz buddy might
just happen to notice that guard's focus as an excellent target for a
Mana Ball at this time"... it makes the game more theatrical, it makes
the runners more "heroic" and "legendary" (in a movie kind of way) and
is
generally one of the things that satisfy a GM's torture & sadism needs.

**************************************************************************
I like work; | Not yours; My own, truly,
It fascinates me. | Steve J. Piperoglou
I can sit and look|
at it for hours. | sneakabout@**********.hol.forthnet.gr (finger also)
- J.K. Jerome| spip@********.ath.forthnet.gr (mail only)
**************************************************************************
Message no. 29
From: "Stephanos J. Piperoglou" <sneakabout@***.FORTHNET.GR>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 22:13:57 +0000
On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, Gurth wrote:

> Though I've never seen it happen in a group I was involved in, I would
> _strongly_ advise against intentionally killing off other PCs. IMO the only
> thing you'd accomplish is that everyone turns against you, maybe even kick
> you out of the group. (If you do want to kill him, you could try to shoot at
> an enemy who's in front of him, but only if the TN is so high you'd almost
> certainly miss, and then hope the stray shot fries the PC.)

One of the most painful experiences I ever had is when a player (who is
also my best friend) came to a session in a real pissed-off mood, and
decided I was a really bad GM coz I hadn't planned EVERY possibility. So
he started doing stuff like killing off the Johnson etc. It got everyone
pissed off (everyone else just wanted to earn some Nuyen) and that was
the tragic end of that wonderful character (remember I mentioned him
before he was the ex-Seal with monowhip finger and the Squirt).

So this is a message to all you arrogant players in there:
GMs are in this for the fun too. All you're doing is spoiling it.

And remember the most important rule in roleplaying:
The GM is *not* always right, but, no matter what happens, no matter what
you do, no matter what stats you have, no matter how much you suck up
afterwards, he can *always* kill you off.

If he's in a good mood, he might even do it within the rules.

(a sudden memory from my old Dark Sun campaign:
Player: I don't think you're right, we should check the rulebooks again
DM (me): A dark, ominous red reptilious winged shape is suddenly sighted
above the horizon. It's coming your way.)

**************************************************************************
I like work; | Not yours; My own, truly,
It fascinates me. | Steve J. Piperoglou
I can sit and look|
at it for hours. | sneakabout@**********.hol.forthnet.gr (finger also)
- J.K. Jerome| spip@********.ath.forthnet.gr (mail only)
**************************************************************************
Message no. 30
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 10:08:42 +0100
Steve wrote:
> And remember the most important rule in roleplaying:
> The GM is *not* always right, but, no matter what happens, no matter what
> you do, no matter what stats you have, no matter how much you suck up
> afterwards, he can *always* kill you off.
All my player's know one of my rules, which goes: "The GM is always right".
Sometimes, I take a look into the rulebook (when in good mood), sometimes
not.
I'm playing in another campaign where one of my players is the GM and he
handle it the same way. No problems here. GM has to be god in his world
or eveything will go downhill.
>
> If he's in a good mood, he might even do it within the rules.
>
Only sometimes...

> (a sudden memory from my old Dark Sun campaign:
> Player: I don't think you're right, we should check the rulebooks again
> DM (me): A dark, ominous red reptilious winged shape is suddenly sighted
> above the horizon. It's coming your way.)
I always handle it that way:
GM: Look up
Player: Why? (Looking up)
GM: A piano is falling on your head. (Game over)

Sometimes, it's enough to say that there is a piano-shaped shadow falling
on the player to keep them quiet.
bye,
Stefan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 12:30:10 +0100
>One of the most painful experiences I ever had is when a player (who is
>also my best friend) came to a session in a real pissed-off mood, and
>decided I was a really bad GM coz I hadn't planned EVERY possibility. So
>he started doing stuff like killing off the Johnson etc. It got everyone
>pissed off (everyone else just wanted to earn some Nuyen) and that was
>the tragic end of that wonderful character (remember I mentioned him
>before he was the ex-Seal with monowhip finger and the Squirt).
>
>So this is a message to all you arrogant players in there:
>GMs are in this for the fun too. All you're doing is spoiling it.

Since we're talking about painful experiences, I remember an AD&D campaign
where we (the players) came across some magical deck of cards that either
gave really good things or really bad things to the person who drew a random
card from the deck (like +50,000XP, fighting a minor demon, etc.) In the
end, of our five players three went wild -- I draw four cards! I draw two
more cards! etc. etc. Me and another player only took two and quit afterward
(I got something like +20,000XP I think, and decided that was enough), but
the others ended up killing themselves fighting devils, instant deaths,
-100,000XP, and so on. In the end everybody got pissed off and we just quit
the whole game there and then. Luckily, SR doesn't have magical wishing
decks of cards...


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl |GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3)
You can't play rock & roll on a diet|!au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L
of vegi-juice, cucumber sandwiches |!3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j
and Linda-bloody McCartney's Tofu- |R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+
toffees --Edina, Absolutely Fabulous|u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 12:30:38 +0100
>GM has to be god in his world or eveything will go downhill.

Exactly what I told my players: "the GM is god as far as you're concerned."
Now I sometimes get a player asking me "God, is it alright if I do this?" :)


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl |GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3)
You can't play rock & roll on a diet|!au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L
of vegi-juice, cucumber sandwiches |!3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j
and Linda-bloody McCartney's Tofu- |R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+
toffees --Edina, Absolutely Fabulous|u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 33
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@**.ERAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 14:30:13 -0700
On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Stefan Struck wrote:

> Steve wrote:
> > And remember the most important rule in roleplaying:
> > The GM is *not* always right, but, no matter what happens, no matter what
> > you do, no matter what stats you have, no matter how much you suck up
> > afterwards, he can *always* kill you off.
> All my player's know one of my rules, which goes: "The GM is always right".
> Sometimes, I take a look into the rulebook (when in good mood), sometimes
> not.

Well if you want to be a dick about it, then do it that way. If I handle
something different than the rules state and a player points it out, I will
definitely take it into consideration. If their characters existance
depends on my ruling then I will attempt to do it correctly by the rules.

> I'm playing in another campaign where one of my players is the GM and he
> handle it the same way. No problems here. GM has to be god in his world
> or eveything will go downhill.
> >
> > If he's in a good mood, he might even do it within the rules.
> >
> Only sometimes...
>
> > (a sudden memory from my old Dark Sun campaign:
> > Player: I don't think you're right, we should check the rulebooks again
> > DM (me): A dark, ominous red reptilious winged shape is suddenly sighted
> > above the horizon. It's coming your way.)
> I always handle it that way:
> GM: Look up
> Player: Why? (Looking up)
> GM: A piano is falling on your head. (Game over)
>
> Sometimes, it's enough to say that there is a piano-shaped shadow falling
> on the player to keep them quiet.
> bye,
> Stefan

I don't intend to start a war here, but the above paragraph is not only
rude, but very non-condusive to good role-playing. I do not go on a
power trip when I GM. I'm there to have a good time. If a player
disagrees with me about something, I do not threaten him with instant
death. If I think about the problem and, if I think the player has a good
point, I usually change what happened. If I think I'm right, then I'll
explain my reasoning and go on. There. The problem was settled without
resorting to childish threats, and everyone is happy.

Again, I'm not attempting to start a war here, but you must realize what
you are saying with that "piano from the sky" solution to player/GM
conflicts.

See ya,
Jason
Message no. 34
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@**.ERAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 14:38:28 -0700
On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >GM has to be god in his world or eveything will go downhill.
>
> Exactly what I told my players: "the GM is god as far as you're concerned."
> Now I sometimes get a player asking me "God, is it alright if I do this?"
:)
>
AAAAHHHHHHH!!!! What is with this "GM is God" trip?! Yes you may have
control over your world, but if you start answering all of your players
questions with "I'm God, I'll do it my way" you're gonna start loosing
players fast. IMO that is a crappy way to GM a game. It may be fun for
you, but I doubt your players are having any fun when the rules change on
a whim, or because of your mood.

See ya,
Jason
Message no. 35
From: Geoff Gerrietts <Sieffre@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power Gamers
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 01:55:50 -0500
Yeah, 1.5 after racial max. But its still cheaper than general skills are.
And eminently more useful in a firefight. I've recently ruled that it doubles
cost after doubling the stat, then doubles again after racial max, or vice
versa if you start out with good attributes. For a while there, I had a troll
with a 17 body in the group... practically nobody could touch him, and if
they could, the mages and the decker needed to be at least 3 counties away.
Message no. 36
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 10:05:29 +0100
Jason wrote:
> > Steve wrote:
> > > And remember the most important rule in roleplaying:
> > > The GM is *not* always right, but, no matter what happens, no matter what
> > > you do, no matter what stats you have, no matter how much you suck up
> > > afterwards, he can *always* kill you off.
> > All my player's know one of my rules, which goes: "The GM is always
right".
> > Sometimes, I take a look into the rulebook (when in good mood), sometimes
> > not.
>
> Well if you want to be a dick about it, then do it that way. If I handle
> something different than the rules state and a player points it out, I will
> definitely take it into consideration. If their characters existance
> depends on my ruling then I will attempt to do it correctly by the rules.
>
OK, I have to admit that it sounds harder than it's actually is. Maybe I
should tag a few 8) to my text in the future. To make this point clear:
I PLAY correctly by the rules. But we often get reality discussion, like
the old grenade-rules discussion.
Player: Why did I throw the grenade 10 meters away from my target. I got a
throwing skill of 3.
GM : Yes, that's not so good.
Player: Oh, come on, even me (the player) can throw a ball better, etc..

Another point is discussing targetnumber modifiers and difficulties
Player: I'm shooting at the ork who's stand before the car.
GM : Yes, you're in moving car, shooting through the broken BACK window
so you got to shoot ballistic, that's +X in modifiers.
Player: OOOOH, come on ...
Hope you got the picture
> > GM: Look up
> > Player: Why? (Looking up)
> > GM: A piano is falling on your head. (Game over)
> >
> > Sometimes, it's enough to say that there is a piano-shaped shadow falling
> > on the player to keep them quiet.
>
> I don't intend to start a war here, but the above paragraph is not only
> rude, but very non-condusive to good role-playing. I do not go on a
> power trip when I GM. I'm there to have a good time. If a player
> disagrees with me about something, I do not threaten him with instant
> death. If I think about the problem and, if I think the player has a good
> point, I usually change what happened. If I think I'm right, then I'll
> explain my reasoning and go on. There. The problem was settled without
> resorting to childish threats, and everyone is happy.
To make one thing clear: Roleplaying is no ego- or power-trip. But I don't
think it's fun for the player's if you start a "no", "yes",
"no", "yes"
discussion with one player. The piano thing can't be taken be word, I
didn't kill players with it. It's just a hint that I want to end the
discussion and start playing again. BTW most of my players wouldn't be
killed by a piano hit anyway. It's more like a practical joke. You just
have to look at there faces, when they go along a street and have to pass
right under a piano which is transported into an appartment in the upper
stories. It makes them laugh, not shiffer in fear.

I have to apologies, my comments were not well written. Sorry.
bye,
Stefan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 14:01:19 +0100
>AAAAHHHHHHH!!!! What is with this "GM is God" trip?! Yes you may have
>control over your world, but if you start answering all of your players
>questions with "I'm God, I'll do it my way" you're gonna start loosing
>players fast. IMO that is a crappy way to GM a game. It may be fun for
>you, but I doubt your players are having any fun when the rules change on
>a whim, or because of your mood.

I didn't say that I always say "I'm god and you stick with that." I think
I'm a pretty reasonable person, I think everyone's entitled to their own
opinion, and I try to LISTEN to what people say before making judgements.
The rules don't change every two seconds, and I DO NOT pretend to be better
than I am (unlike some people I know). If I'd run my games that way, I
wouldn't still be GMing after 2 1/2 years. What I meant was that I made it
clear that IM(H)O the GM should have the final word in an RPG, but should
not be a dictator telling his players "you can't do that because I say so."
I said to my players once that the GM is the god in the campaign world
because the GM, _if_he_wants_to_, can be. But I also think that that IS NOT
the way to GM properly. Alright?


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl |GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3)
You can't play rock & roll on a diet|!au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L
of vegi-juice, cucumber sandwiches |!3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j
and Linda-bloody McCartney's Tofu- |R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+
toffees --Edina, Absolutely Fabulous|u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 38
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 14:00:46 +0100
Jason wrote:
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Gurth wrote:
>
> > >GM has to be god in his world or eveything will go downhill.
> >
> > Exactly what I told my players: "the GM is god as far as you're
concerned."
> > Now I sometimes get a player asking me "God, is it alright if I do
this?" :)
> >
> AAAAHHHHHHH!!!! What is with this "GM is God" trip?! Yes you may have
> control over your world, but if you start answering all of your players
> questions with "I'm God, I'll do it my way" you're gonna start loosing
> players fast. IMO that is a crappy way to GM a game. It may be fun for
> you, but I doubt your players are having any fun when the rules change on
> a whim, or because of your mood.
I think you don't get it right. I'm not (and I think I can say Gurth, too)
answering all "why?" questions with the "'cause I'm god" answer. It's
just so, that in the end the GM has to have the last word in the
discussions. This word can be: "you're right" or "I'm right". But if
it's not clear what is right or wrong the GM word counts. That's all.

and another point: I'm playing for a couple of years now and still
got players (some of them for years). The whole discussion of this topic
is just a misunderstanding.
bye,
Stefan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 39
From: Geoff Gerrietts <Sieffre@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:58:53 -0500
>>a troll in milspec armor

A manabolt works great when his willpower is truly abysmal, but seeing as how
that particular stat only costs 1* new rating to get it to a 5, then 1.5*new
rating beyond that (up to 150%, God willing), even without shielding he's
good to go against most non-initiates.

Add karma pool to that and reflexes somewhere in the insane category, and
you're praying the troll can't figure out which one's the mage before the
first wave of cannon fodder engages him in melee. We called him Troll Tank --
the only character ever to walk away completely untouched from a full
autocannon blast to the back.
Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:00:50 +0100
>I think you don't get it right. I'm not (and I think I can say Gurth, too)
>answering all "why?" questions with the "'cause I'm god" answer.

Exactly. So please, let's end this discussion right here.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl |GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3)
You can't play rock & roll on a diet|!au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L
of vegi-juice, cucumber sandwiches |!3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j
and Linda-bloody McCartney's Tofu- |R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+
toffees --Edina, Absolutely Fabulous|u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 41
From: "Stephanos J. Piperoglou" <sneakabout@***.FORTHNET.GR>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 18:36:31 +0000
******** Sorry if this comes in twice, I've been having problems posting!

On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Jason Ustica wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Gurth wrote:
>
> > >GM has to be god in his world or eveything will go downhill.
> >
> > Exactly what I told my players: "the GM is god as far as you're
concerned."
> > Now I sometimes get a player asking me "God, is it alright if I do
this?" :)
> >
> AAAAHHHHHHH!!!! What is with this "GM is God" trip?! Yes you may have
> control over your world, but if you start answering all of your players
> questions with "I'm God, I'll do it my way" you're gonna start loosing
> players fast. IMO that is a crappy way to GM a game. It may be fun for
> you, but I doubt your players are having any fun when the rules change on
> a whim, or because of your mood.
>
Huh? Excuse me?

Am I the only one with greedy, min/maxing, rule-bending players here? Am
I the only one whose players are not the kind you sit down and calmly
discuss the rules with? Am I the only one who will end up having the
players do whatever they like if I don't enforce my opinion?

No, I disagree, it is NOT a crappy way to GM. It is th *only* way to GM,
unless your players are civilised and calm enough and ... well, imaginary
enough to be able to compromise with you.

Even when I put up an iron fist, I still get browbeaten into many
decisions. If I actually gave anything to my players, my campaign would
turn into a Monty Haul (to borrow theterm from that wretched game) in no
time. GM is God. This does not mean he is an unforgiving punisher. It
means it's his world. Life's a bitch, and you have to live with that.

**************************************************************************
I like work; | Not yours; My own, truly,
It fascinates me. | Steve J. Piperoglou
I can sit and look|
at it for hours. | sneakabout@**********.hol.forthnet.gr (finger also)
- J.K. Jerome| spip@********.ath.forthnet.gr (mail only)
**************************************************************************
Message no. 42
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 16:12:09 -0500
On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Stephanos J. Piperoglou wrote:

> Am I the only one with greedy, min/maxing, rule-bending players here? Am
> I the only one whose players are not the kind you sit down and calmly
> discuss the rules with? Am I the only one who will end up having the
> players do whatever they like if I don't enforce my opinion?

It would appear so.

> No, I disagree, it is NOT a crappy way to GM. It is th *only* way to GM,
> unless your players are civilised and calm enough and ... well, imaginary
> enough to be able to compromise with you.

It sounds like you need a crop of new players. You have my
condolences. Sounds like you're not having any fun running the campaign.

> Even when I put up an iron fist, I still get browbeaten into many
> decisions. If I actually gave anything to my players, my campaign would
> turn into a Monty Haul (to borrow theterm from that wretched game) in no
> time. GM is God. This does not mean he is an unforgiving punisher. It
> means it's his world. Life's a bitch, and you have to live with that.

Again, it sounds like you need new players. Players who are
mature enough to be above this kind of power gaming crap. It's
unfortunate for you, and I sincerely hope that your players will see the
light soon.

Marc
Message no. 43
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 14:44:14 -0700
Hey now, wait a minute. So-called power gaming isn't all that bad, IF
DONE RIGHT!!! This means EVERYTHING must be role-played, and have a
valid, within the rules, reason. The PC's in our group would likely be
called "power characters", and we might even be called "power gamers".
But I guarantee it all has a very good reason behind it all. We also
adjust the opposition way up, and we try to create situations that make
it very difficult for us. Take away the Military armor and the mil-spec
weapons, it becomes a lot harder. Which we end up doing alot. I would
say that we get to use our mil-spec gear only about one-half to
two-thirds of the time. Thats a lot of money to be spending on something
you don't get to use that often.

In essence, my point is this. IF you are role-playing everything out,
and having a good time, then who cares? But if your players are just
number crunchers only interested in making sure they can and never will
be killed, then the the hell with 'em. Get a new group of players.

And as far as the GM=God, I look at it this way. The GM is a benevolent
dictator. He (or she) knows how to listen, can take advice and
criticism, but the GM's final word is law. The GM may take whatever
steps are necessary to make sure that it is law.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 44
From: "Stephanos J. Piperoglou" <sneakabout@***.FORTHNET.GR>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 13:44:04 +0000
On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> It would appear so.
> It sounds like you need a crop of new players. You have my
> condolences. Sounds like you're not having any fun running the campaign.
> Again, it sounds like you need new players. Players who are
> mature enough to be above this kind of power gaming crap. It's
> unfortunate for you, and I sincerely hope that your players will see the
> light soon.

I have played with over 10 gaming groups as a GM/DM/Storyteller and
several more as a player. I dare say I am the ONLY player I have EVER
known who is NOT a min/maxer, and will kill off or put a character in an
unfortunate situation just for roleplaying's sake (ask Gurth@******.nl,
my new GM, what sort of character I gave him), and am definitely the only
one who won't get worked up and start whining "you're wrong, it would
never happen that way" if ANYTHING unfortunate happens to his character.
That is DEFINETELY the standard roleplayer from my experience, and I
*have* changed players repeatedly. That is the attitude I have *always*
gotten from my players. And that is the reason I will not argue with
them. I'm not saying I put them in totally bizarre circumstances and kill
them off every two sessions, no, I like to think I'm pretty fair, it's
just that when it comes to an argument, I will not listen to my players,
simply because *I* think both of the interest of the group *and* of
fairness, while *they* only think of their character getting along. That
makes it unfair, and it never, ever works if you have it their way half
the time.

Maybe you have this kind of players. I wish I had. I have played like
this, playing disadvantaged, underpowered, but heavily roleplayed
characters all the while I have been gaming, and I always get the
shortest stick in every group, because everybody else has a
stereotypical, empty kind of personality that is just trying to get along
his life as if he knew the rules (because the players do). It would be an
immense release for me to have such players, but no, I have NEVER EVER
met or played with anyone else with this kind of attitude. I don't know
where you would find such players, but if you do, tell me and I'll look too.

**************************************************************************
I like work; | Not yours; My own, truly,
It fascinates me. | Steve J. Piperoglou
I can sit and look|
at it for hours. | sneakabout@**********.hol.forthnet.gr (finger also)
- J.K. Jerome| spip@********.ath.forthnet.gr (mail only)
**************************************************************************
Message no. 45
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 13:02:49 -0500
Stephanos Piperoglou wrote: [stuff about never encountering non-munchkin
gamers...]

Well, I can't tell you where to find good players, but I can tell
you what to look for. Most of this you probably already know, but what
the hell...

1. Look for older gamers. Shadowrun is a game for mature
audiences, and some of its subject materials are graphic to say the
least. Also, older gamers tend to be more mature and less into that
whole "Monty Haul" gaming paradigm.

2. Look for players who have experience in other role-playing
games. Especially look for people who have experience in games *other*
than AD&D.

3. Look for people who *understand* the genre. People who can
relate to what's going on in your universe. (people who like guns! ;) )

4. If you can't find players like this...make them yourself. To
clarify this, get your players, sit them down, and explain the "facts o'
life" to them. Make them think about *why* they are role-playing.
Challenge them to do something different or unusual.

If that doesn't work, go on a psychotic rampage, kill everybody,
and start over. :)

Marc
Message no. 46
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 13:27:06 -0500
Marc, I'll add a number 5 to your list.
5) If there are to be Magic-users (Shamans, Hermetic mages, Druids, etc) in
your game, look for people who are practicing Magic. They would know how to
work theory into the game, and know how to play a convincing mage. :)
Tom Craig
Message no. 47
From: Sandman <SANDS@******.JUNIATA.EDU>
Subject: Power Gamers
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 17:22:04 -0500
>From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>

<chunk about "good" power gaming deleted>

>In essence, my point is this. IF you are role-playing everything out,
>and having a good time, then who cares?

Hmm... I would look at your description as being role-playing, albeit in
a high-powered campaign. I tend to think of "power gaming" as trying
to make the most powerful character, within the rules. Ignoring or
breaking the rules is, of course, the realm of the Munchkin.

>And as far as the GM=God, I look at it this way. The GM is a benevolent
>dictator. He (or she) knows how to listen, can take advice and
>criticism, but the GM's final word is law. The GM may take whatever
>steps are necessary to make sure that it is law.

This is definitely true. The GM should not do things on a whim, and
should look at issues reasonably, but his/her decision should be final.


: Jon Sands aka Sandman ^ "The bigger they are, :
: sands@******.juniata.edu ^ The more pieces they make." :
: Snail: 1168 Juniata College ^ -Wolverine :
: Huntingdon, PA 16652 ^ Dark Phoenix Saga :
: **** "He hits and... I think I'm going to need more dice..." **** :
Message no. 48
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 18:18:52 -0700
On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> Marc, I'll add a number 5 to your list.
> 5) If there are to be Magic-users (Shamans, Hermetic mages, Druids, etc) in
> your game, look for people who are practicing Magic. They would know how to
> work theory into the game, and know how to play a convincing mage. :)
> Tom Craig
>
Sorry, but this is just far too tempting...

SO does this mean that people who believe that magic is a bunch of crock
can't convincingly play mages? Or that military veterans really should
be the only ones to play samurai? Or that computer geeks should be the
only ones to be deckers?

This may sound inane, and it is, as is the comment by Mr. Craig. It is
an illogical and blatantly unfair and untrue claim. Perhaps a "magician"
(and I will not go into that damn debate about whether or not magic
exists) might be able to put a different spin on the character, or might
have an interesting insight. This can often be the case, as I recall
that the best Twilight 2000 player/GM I have ever met was a member of the
Army ROTC and the Ranger Challenge. But on the other hand, the best
theoretical "mage" is my friend Mike Ruane, the GREAT Cornholio, also
known as Spellslinger. He has a grasp of how magic might actually work
(in a hermetic, scientific manner) far superior to anything I have heard
on this list. And he believes that there is no such thing as magic. He
discounts its existence, but I would claim that he has a better
theoretical grasp on SR magic that the vast majority of people.

So where does that leave Mr. Craig's claim? IMNSHO, for the most part it
clearly invalidates it. Now, in other campaign's that might not be
ture. Perhaps you as GM want your mage charcters to be played by people
who really belive in magic and "practise" it. I, for one, only care
about whether or not the person can role-play.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
(living up to "list.grumpy.member")
Message no. 49
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@**.ERAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 19:06:54 -0700
On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Erik S Jameson wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Thomas W. Craig wrote:
>
> > Marc, I'll add a number 5 to your list.
> > 5) If there are to be Magic-users (Shamans, Hermetic mages, Druids, etc) in
> > your game, look for people who are practicing Magic. They would know how to
> > work theory into the game, and know how to play a convincing mage. :)
> > Tom Craig
> >
> Sorry, but this is just far too tempting...

[full scale flame deleted]

Whoa there big fella! While I don't see eye to eye with Mr. Craig's views
on magic, he did leave a smiley. Don't go off roasting him when he
doesn't really deserve it.

I think he does have somewhat of a point here. If you as a person have
some real world experience with certain aspects of your character, you
will be able to understand the character a little better. On the other
hand, one of the greatest merits of roleplaying is the ability to act as
someone you could never be, and experience things you never could in our
world.


**********************************************************************
Jason Ustica | Interests: | "Know the enemy and |
usticaj@**.erau.edu | | know yourself; in a |
| Airplanes, coffee, | hundred battles you |
Former pilot - | computers, WH40K, | will never be in |
Now a computer | firearms, the future, | peril." |
science major | Jyhad, Shadowrun, | |
(thankfully) | music, and the LA Kings.| -Sun Tzu |
**********************************************************************
Message no. 50
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 19:31:29 -0700
Ergh. I didn't notice the smiley, but that still doesn't take away from
what I was saying. You should notice that in my post I did say that he
has something of a point (i.e. my R.O.T.C. ex-roomate and Twilight 2000),
but I also still believe the comment was way off base. And if it was
intended to be funny, well, given the nature of this list and the past
flamings/discussions on the existence of magic, it was joke done in
_very_ poor taste.

My point is this: you do not have to be a "practising mage" to play a
good mage, and you don't have to be a veteran to play a merc or a
samurai. You just have to have some imagination and know how to
role-play. Saying otherwise really is elitist and I find it offensive.

Besides people, I'm just being list.grumpy.member!!! ;-) I mean, if I
wasn't grumpy, then who on this list would be?

Erik, a.k.a. the Grumpy Whistler
Message no. 51
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 11:17:33 +0100
> 1. Look for older gamers. Shadowrun is a game for mature
>audiences, and some of its subject materials are graphic to say the
>least. Also, older gamers tend to be more mature and less into that
>whole "Monty Haul" gaming paradigm.

I think you are forgetting that this is Europe we're taling about, not North
America. Over here, people tend to have much less problems with "adults'"
stuff and their kids -- I mean, things that are considered 18+ (or even 21+)
in the US are 12+ (maybe 16+) over here...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L
!3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+
u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 52
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 15:58:00 -0500
On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Gurth wrote:

> > 1. Look for older gamers. Shadowrun is a game for mature
> >audiences, and some of its subject materials are graphic to say the
> >least. Also, older gamers tend to be more mature and less into that
> >whole "Monty Haul" gaming paradigm.
>
> I think you are forgetting that this is Europe we're taling about, not North
> America. Over here, people tend to have much less problems with "adults'"
> stuff and their kids -- I mean, things that are considered 18+ (or even 21+)
> in the US are 12+ (maybe 16+) over here...

Sorry, but I meant attitude, not ability to accept the "adult"
stuff. Power-gaming wanker 12-year-olds are still power-gaming wanker
12-year-olds whether you are in Europe, North America, Australia, or
friggin' Antarctica. They are still in that adolescent "I'm bigger and
badder than you" stage. Not conducive to productive role-playing in a
game as intricate as Shadowrun.

Note: My apologies to any wanker 12-year-olds ;) I know a
select few people that young who can play the game, but by and large they
are the exception rather than the rule.

Marc
Message no. 53
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Power gamers (fwd)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 12:40:58 +0100
> Sorry, but I meant attitude, not ability to accept the "adult"
>stuff. Power-gaming wanker 12-year-olds are still power-gaming wanker
>12-year-olds whether you are in Europe, North America, Australia, or
>friggin' Antarctica. They are still in that adolescent "I'm bigger and
>badder than you" stage. Not conducive to productive role-playing in a
>game as intricate as Shadowrun.

I just misunderstood you, then. My mistake. You're right, I think, about
12-year-olds' attitudes...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"What do you call not believing in what you did see?" "Politics?"
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Power gamers, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!