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Message no. 1
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 16:29:44 GMT
Robert Watkins writes
>
> Look at the other stuff I've said, Mike... Carrying a PAC is bad.
if silly enough to carry it where there are cops or gnagers, very bad.

> Getting
> one is hard. Getting a Force 10 mana bolt should be about as easy as
> getting a pistol-sized weapon that can do the damage of a PAC.
try spell learn 10 days per go target number 20!
ok i think some folks were on 6+expendable plus exclusive, well that
means you cannot cast it while sustaining invis etc (you have an int
based limit to active foci you know!) and you cannot use it at all if
you run out of fetishes or someone steals them / takes them off you
becasue you got arrested / while your on plane to stop you using them
etc.

> Availability should play off against ease-of-use.
Tends to, thats why i like stun magic and tasers. Both are non
lethal (most of the time - i have seen wrap around perm kills with
both both not intended) stun magic has 1 less drain target number
tasers attract less cop attention than bullets and both leave the
target in 'drag away to interrogate/mindprobe' rather than 'lose'
condition.

>
> No, if a mage in my game starts tossing out spells in public, 3 or 4
> mages, PLUS 2 Fast Response Teams turn up. If the mage gets away,
> forensics gets hold of the spell signature, etc, etc.
>
A very good reason to control force, (magic rating - force)*2 to
spot, i have been known to have a character downcast a manabolt all
the way to force 1 to take advantage of that. Crowed bars are a pain
especially when the sleep spell solutions right out because the
crowds all around, your team and the folks you are helping are in the
way.

> (Oh, and at one point, I _did_ change the subject line... someone lost
> it, I think)
About time someone changed it! the wonders of topic drift.

> BTW, this particular side-step started when I bitched about a character
> in one of my former games who liked to tote his LMG everywhere. I called
> that munchkinous. This topic started (again). I still think I was right.
>
How many lone stars did he attract ?

Mark
Message no. 2
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:03:18 -0700 (PDT)
> Tends to, thats why i like stun magic and tasers. Both are non
> lethal (most of the time - i have seen wrap around perm kills with
> both both not intended) stun magic has 1 less drain target number
> tasers attract less cop attention than bullets and both leave the
> target in 'drag away to interrogate/mindprobe' rather than 'lose'
> condition.

((One of my favorite spells is Stunball. Easy drain, and can take hordes
of people down w/o killing them.))

> A very good reason to control force, (magic rating - force)*2 to
> spot, i have been known to have a character downcast a manabolt all
> the way to force 1 to take advantage of that. Crowed bars are a pain
> especially when the sleep spell solutions right out because the
> crowds all around, your team and the folks you are helping are in the
> way.

((Drop a StunBall is said bar. (Most) everyone's out, no sees a thing,
get in, get out, no one is hurt, everyone is hapy (except the chummski
you were after of course...))




---Tom---
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 12:20:00 +1030
>> BTW, this particular side-step started when I bitched about a character
>> in one of my former games who liked to tote his LMG everywhere. I called
>> that munchkinous. This topic started (again). I still think I was right.
>>
>How many lone stars did he attract ?

None... it was in the Barrens. He did bitch about the 10 gangers who
decided to relieve him of it, though. (OTH, he also objected when I sent
a FRT team after him for wearing his Full Suit whilst walking in
Downtown. Fine, if it had all the suitable corp logos, etc... even guards
go off for coffee breaks. But no... HIS had "Death to da Pigs" on the
back, with a hog's head.)


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:27:35 +0100
Dr. Bolthy von Schotz said on 10:05/14 May 96...

> Getting a Force 10 Mana Bolt:
>
> Finding a teacher (ha!) or writing the spell formula yourself (Target
> number 10, minus magic attribute. Null persp.)
>
> NEXT, you need to learn it. I think it's something lik eyour Sorcery +
> Magic Attribute against a target number of _20_. 22 if you are learning
> it from a spell formula. =P

Good point... That makes it harder to get than a PAC. If you consider it
all, your force 10 spell has an availability of 20/10 days, while a
Panther cannon is 16/14 days. (The formula does not add a +2 to the TN.)
The magician learning the spell will probably roll a few more dice than
the munane trying to buy a PAC, but the chance of success is hardly
likely.

Which, BTW, is exactly the reason why my player's shaman did initiate to
grade 6 but has no spells over force 6.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's what being a man is all about, Steve: making mistakes and not caring!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:22:03 GMT
Tom Pendergrast writes

> ((One of my favorite spells is Stunball. Easy drain, and can take hordes
> of people down w/o killing them.))
>
Superb spell, i just have not had a chance to equip a long played
character with it yet, i seem to end up running SR, the games i've
played since the first one have all been short/oneshot/or i really
got miffed with the GM [had something to do with overly short
sessions and spare banshees in funny colors] since.

> > A very good reason to control force, (magic rating - force)*2 to
> > spot, i have been known to have a character downcast a manabolt all
> > the way to force 1 to take advantage of that. Crowed bars are a pain
> > especially when the sleep spell solutions right out because the
> > crowds all around, your team and the folks you are helping are in the
> > way.
>
> ((Drop a StunBall is said bar. (Most) everyone's out, no sees a thing,
> get in, get out, no one is hurt, everyone is hapy (except the chummski
> you were after of course...))
>
Except as i said the team and a group of folks i wanted to escape wre
in the way, i had a sleep spell with pleny enough dice available to
do te trick, completly overdo it in fact.

>
>
Mark
Message no. 6
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:33:01 +0200
At 13:22 Uhr 15.05.96, Mark Steedman wrote:
[snip]
> [had something to do with overly short
>sessions and spare banshees in funny colors] since.

GM: "You Encounter three banshees..."
Team: "Well, we did Vampires before, let 'em come!"
GM: "Uh.. you don't seem to understand..."

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 7
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:41:21 -0500
>GM: "You Encounter three banshees..."
>Team: "Well, we did Vampires before, let 'em come!"
>GM: "Uh.. you don't seem to understand..."
>
> Sascha

Thanks. I'm sure the people in the next office were wondering what in the
hell I was laughing at :)

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.
Message no. 8
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:56:10 -0500 (CDT)
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Dr. Bolthy von Schotz said on 10:05/14 May 96...
>
> > Getting a Force 10 Mana Bolt:
> >
> > Finding a teacher (ha!) or writing the spell formula yourself (Target
> > number 10, minus magic attribute. Null persp.)
> >
> > NEXT, you need to learn it. I think it's something lik eyour Sorcery +
> > Magic Attribute against a target number of _20_. 22 if you are learning
> > it from a spell formula. =P
>
> Good point... That makes it harder to get than a PAC. If you consider it
> all, your force 10 spell has an availability of 20/10 days, while a
> Panther cannon is 16/14 days. (The formula does not add a +2 to the TN.)
> The magician learning the spell will probably roll a few more dice than
> the munane trying to buy a PAC, but the chance of success is hardly
> likely.
>

Miracles never cease. I have a book handy:

Grimoire, p. 114:

If the magician is attempting to learn the spell form a copy of the spell
formula he possesses, without the benefit of a teacher who knows the
spell, the procedure is the same as if there were a teacher present, but
the magician must use a +2 target number modifier for all relevant Succes
Tests.

Oh, and this is all suposing that the formula is in the same tradition as
yours. If you're translating it from Hermetic to Shamanic, that's
another +2. And i think if the formula was written by a mundane spell
theoriest, it's another +2...


> Which, BTW, is exactly the reason why my player's shaman did initiate to
> grade 6 but has no spells over force 6.
>
> --


Heh... the Shaman in our grou p has been trying to learn a force 12 mana
bolt... note the key word: Trying. He has 12 or 13 dice minimum in his
Karma Pool, and he still can't get that 24 he needs.


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:11:31 +0100
Dr. Bolthy von Schotz said on 13:56/15 May 96...

> > (The formula does not add a +2 to the TN.)
>
> If the magician is attempting to learn the spell form a copy of the spell
> formula he possesses, without the benefit of a teacher who knows the
> spell, the procedure is the same as if there were a teacher present, but
> the magician must use a +2 target number modifier for all relevant Succes
> Tests.

I was only looking in the SRII main rules... :/ (Now somebody is going to
prove to me that it is in there as well, right? I'm getting too old for
this shit :)

> > Which, BTW, is exactly the reason why my player's shaman did initiate to
> > grade 6 but has no spells over force 6.
>
> Heh... the Shaman in our grou p has been trying to learn a force 12 mana
> bolt... note the key word: Trying. He has 12 or 13 dice minimum in his
> Karma Pool, and he still can't get that 24 he needs.

I'm not surprised. The only time anyone *ever* rolls 24 is when they don't
need it, like when they're trying to find a piece of gear with an
Availability of 3/24 hrs, or shooting someone against a TN of 2...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een mens kan zich vergissen, maar dit is toch al te lullig...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: HALOWEEN JACK <sbc3kcb@*******.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:19:05 GMT
> Anyone have any other alternatives to (a) buying the libary, or (b) joining
> a group with sufficient resources <hopes in vain>?
>
I have allowed shadowrunners access to the Universities Magical
library every now and then. This requires the runners to build up
extensive contacts, and generally to grease the correct palms to
allow him access while not having him done for trespass.

> Oh, and thanks for all the help on my earlier question on various magical
> things - much appreciated!
>
> Joel
>


Love is the fine line between pleasure and pain

Except when you're into S&M when it's just pain! pain! pain!

Haloween Jack
Message no. 11
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horr
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:52:01 +0100
Joel Nesbitt said on 19:48/16 May 96...

> Anyone have any other alternatives to (a) buying the libary, or (b) joining
> a group with sufficient resources <hopes in vain>?

Use someone else's :) If you've got a SIN and a good reason, you could
probably get access to university libraries and that sort of thing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een mens kan zich vergissen, maar dit is toch al te lullig...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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