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Message no. 1
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 00:13:18 +1030
>>No. What I do is play the game. If you _usually_ carry a Panther Assault
>>Cannon, then you _usually_ get shot down in the street for carrying an
>>obvious heavy weapon in downtown. What do you do? Let them go into
>>high-class restaurants in battle-dress with light machine guns slung over
>>their backs?
>
>No, and I never said anything of the sort. The discussion was that a spell
>is ok to have and their are no repurcussions, but that anyone who owns a PAC
>is a "munchkin" or "power gamer". If my players don't role play
well,
>they'll get dicked, and they no it. If they want to try going into a
>restaurant that way thats fine. Do you let your mage fire off spells in
>public and then assume that LS won't call out their magical ass kickers? Do
>any of your restaurants think about magical security, or is just all
>physical? This wasn't about, can they carry it in downtown Seattle. Only a
>fucking moron would think that they could, or that this is what the
>discussion was about. It was about the force 10 mana bolt being "ok" gaming
>wise and a PAC being "bad". Not bad to carry around, just bad to have.

Look at the other stuff I've said, Mike... Carrying a PAC is bad. Getting
one is hard. Getting a Force 10 mana bolt should be about as easy as
getting a pistol-sized weapon that can do the damage of a PAC.
Availability should play off against ease-of-use.

No, if a mage in my game starts tossing out spells in public, 3 or 4
mages, PLUS 2 Fast Response Teams turn up. If the mage gets away,
forensics gets hold of the spell signature, etc, etc.

(Oh, and at one point, I _did_ change the subject line... someone lost
it, I think)
BTW, this particular side-step started when I bitched about a character
in one of my former games who liked to tote his LMG everywhere. I called
that munchkinous. This topic started (again). I still think I was right.



--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 2
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:05:42 -0500 (CDT)
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >>No. What I do is play the game. If you _usually_ carry a Panther Assault
> >>Cannon, then you _usually_ get shot down in the street for carrying an
> >>obvious heavy weapon in downtown. What do you do? Let them go into
> >>high-class restaurants in battle-dress with light machine guns slung over
> >>their backs?
> >
> >No, and I never said anything of the sort. The discussion was that a spell
> >is ok to have and their are no repurcussions, but that anyone who owns a PAC
> >is a "munchkin" or "power gamer". If my players don't role
play well,
> >they'll get dicked, and they no it. If they want to try going into a
> >restaurant that way thats fine. Do you let your mage fire off spells in
> >public and then assume that LS won't call out their magical ass kickers? Do
> >any of your restaurants think about magical security, or is just all
> >physical? This wasn't about, can they carry it in downtown Seattle. Only a
> >fucking moron would think that they could, or that this is what the
> >discussion was about. It was about the force 10 mana bolt being "ok"
gaming
> >wise and a PAC being "bad". Not bad to carry around, just bad to have.
>
> Look at the other stuff I've said, Mike... Carrying a PAC is bad. Getting
> one is hard. Getting a Force 10 mana bolt should be about as easy as
> getting a pistol-sized weapon that can do the damage of a PAC.
> Availability should play off against ease-of-use.
>

Getting a Force 10 Mana Bolt:

Finding a teacher (ha!) or writing the spell formula yourself (Target
number 10, minus magic attribute. Null persp.)

NEXT, you need to learn it. I think it's something lik eyour Sorcery +
Magic Attribute against a target number of _20_. 22 if you are learning
it from a spell formula. =P




|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 3
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:15:04 -0600 (MDT)
Robert Watkins wrote:
|
|Look at the other stuff I've said, Mike... Carrying a PAC is bad. Getting
|one is hard. Getting a Force 10 mana bolt should be about as easy as
|getting a pistol-sized weapon that can do the damage of a PAC.
|Availability should play off against ease-of-use.

Agreed.

|(Oh, and at one point, I _did_ change the subject line... someone lost
|it, I think)
|BTW, this particular side-step started when I bitched about a character
|in one of my former games who liked to tote his LMG everywhere. I called
|that munchkinous. This topic started (again). I still think I was right.

If a player likes to have his characters walking around with heavy
weapons and expects to get away with it, then he's heading toward
munchkinism (in the bad way). Don't let him get away with it.

But if it's the _character's_ decision to do that, then it makes for
interesting encounters. Have fun with it.

LS Cop: (nervously) "Er...ahem...excuse me sir, why are you carrying
around a LMG."

Sam: (smiles) "Oh this. It tends to detract muggers."

LS Cop: "Ah...I see." (pauses) "And do you realize that carrying heavy
weapons in public is against the law?"

Sam: (looks cop directly in the eyes) "So's mugging."

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 4
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 21:43:26 +0200
At 17:05 Uhr 14.05.96, Dr. Bolthy von Schotz wrote:
[snip]
>Getting a Force 10 Mana Bolt:
>
>Finding a teacher (ha!) or writing the spell formula yourself (Target
>number 10, minus magic attribute. Null persp.)
>
>NEXT, you need to learn it. I think it's something lik eyour Sorcery +
>Magic Attribute against a target number of _20_. 22 if you are learning
>it from a spell formula. =P

But you don't loose Karma if you don't manage the 1st time (or do you?),
so you can retry and retry while the <insert archetype here> heals his
wounds/surgery wounds/creates a program/deck... Null persp.)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 12:20:08 +1030
>Finding a teacher (ha!) or writing the spell formula yourself (Target
>number 10, minus magic attribute. Null persp.)

No... you need a Sorcery library of 10 and a Magical Theory library of
10. Or a medicine lodge, if you're a shaman.

>NEXT, you need to learn it. I think it's something lik eyour Sorcery +
>Magic Attribute against a target number of _20_. 22 if you are learning
>it from a spell formula. =P


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 6
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:30:10 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 14 May 1996, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> At 17:05 Uhr 14.05.96, Dr. Bolthy von Schotz wrote:
> [snip]
> >Getting a Force 10 Mana Bolt:
> >
> >Finding a teacher (ha!) or writing the spell formula yourself (Target
> >number 10, minus magic attribute. Null persp.)
> >
> >NEXT, you need to learn it. I think it's something lik eyour Sorcery +
> >Magic Attribute against a target number of _20_. 22 if you are learning
> >it from a spell formula. =P
>
> But you don't loose Karma if you don't manage the 1st time (or do you?),
> so you can retry and retry while the <insert archetype here> heals his
> wounds/surgery wounds/creates a program/deck... Null persp.)
>

No, you don't lose karma until you actually get the spell. But if you're
hiring a teacher to learn the spell, it's at least ten thousand nuyen,
and if your dice just aren't givin' you no lovin', you might be shelling
out some heavy nuyen to keep this teacher around. Plus living expenses.
If you play in a low income campaign, this does add up...



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 7
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 19:11:07 +0200
At 17:30 Uhr 15.05.96, Dr. Bolthy von Schotz wrote:
[snip]
>> But you don't loose Karma if you don't manage the 1st time (or do you?),
>> so you can retry and retry while the <insert archetype here> heals his
>> wounds/surgery wounds/creates a program/deck... Null persp.)

>No, you don't lose karma until you actually get the spell. But if you're
>hiring a teacher to learn the spell, it's at least ten thousand nuyen,
>and if your dice just aren't givin' you no lovin', you might be shelling
>out some heavy nuyen to keep this teacher around. Plus living expenses.
>If you play in a low income campaign, this does add up...

Agreed. Just had not though this way... my shaman is quite well of (saving
for his second safehouse/alternate identity) so 10 or 20 grand wouldn't
matter (You can't spare 450,000 NY, can you... ? No? Thought so *sigh*)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 8
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:35:24 -0500 (CDT)
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >Finding a teacher (ha!) or writing the spell formula yourself (Target
> >number 10, minus magic attribute. Null persp.)
>
> No... you need a Sorcery library of 10 and a Magical Theory library of
> 10. Or a medicine lodge, if you're a shaman.
>

Forgot about that part... still, that's just money, and not all that
much... easier to come by than the next part:

> >NEXT, you need to learn it. I think it's something lik eyour Sorcery +
> >Magic Attribute against a target number of _20_. 22 if you are learning
> >it from a spell formula. =P


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:56:35 +1030
>> No... you need a Sorcery library of 10 and a Magical Theory library of
>> 10. Or a medicine lodge, if you're a shaman.
>>
>
>Forgot about that part... still, that's just money, and not all that
>much... easier to come by than the next part:

Depends... considering a High Resources magical group, which implies some
major backing, only has a likely access to a Library of about 12-13, that
implies to ME that finding major strength libraries isn't easy.

--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 10
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 10:47:39 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 16 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >> No... you need a Sorcery library of 10 and a Magical Theory
library of > >> 10. Or a medicine lodge, if you're a shaman.
> >>
> >
> >Forgot about that part... still, that's just money, and not all that
> >much... easier to come by than the next part:
>
> Depends... considering a High Resources magical group, which implies some
> major backing, only has a likely access to a Library of about 12-13, that
> implies to ME that finding major strength libraries isn't easy.
>
> --

Rating 10 Medicine Lodge: 5000 Nuyen, availability 10/24 hrs
Rating 12 Medicine Lodge: 6000 NY, availability 12/24 hrs

Rating 10 Hermetic Library (on CD) 10,000 (20,000 with index mod).
Availability is 10/7 days.

Doesn't look too hard to me...

Oh, and a High Resources group doesn't necessarily mean you have a
patron... if we use the odds they have for it in the random generator,
about a third of the High Resources groups are bankrolled. The other two
thirds of them are just people who are willing to contribute more to the
group. Our mage is in a Luxury resources group, and has to pay for it
himself... No backer. 12000+ ny...



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 11
From: Joel Nesbitt <joel.nesbitt@******.oxford.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Power Gaming in general (WAS: Quickened Spells and Horrors)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:48:02 +0100 (BST)
On Thu, 16 May 1996, Dr. Bolthy von Schotz wrote:
>
> Rating 10 Medicine Lodge: 5000 Nuyen, availability 10/24 hrs
> Rating 12 Medicine Lodge: 6000 NY, availability 12/24 hrs
>
> Rating 10 Hermetic Library (on CD) 10,000 (20,000 with index mod).
> Availability is 10/7 days.
>
> Doesn't look too hard to me...

For the library, the rating should be squared (I think - I only have
Awakenings with me and that says that it should be), so you're looking at
more like 200,000Y.

Anyone have any other alternatives to (a) buying the libary, or (b) joining
a group with sufficient resources <hopes in vain>?

Oh, and thanks for all the help on my earlier question on various magical
things - much appreciated!

Joel

Further Reading

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Thwap!