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Message no. 1
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jérémie_Bouillon)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:17:39 +0200
Bira wrote:
> Well, they *are* supposed to be stronger than a normal person, so,
> personally, I don't see a problem with this. If you start out as the
> "best of the best" at something, it just means you can start
> developing other areas right away.

There is a huge gap between the starting PC and the average pedestrian.
There's quite enough room between the two to adjust a campaign style.
Message no. 2
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:36:09 -0300
On 8/25/06, Jérémie Bouillon <jeremie.bouillon@****.fr> wrote:
> Bira wrote:
> > Well, they *are* supposed to be stronger than a normal person, so,
> > personally, I don't see a problem with this. If you start out as the
> > "best of the best" at something, it just means you can start
> > developing other areas right away.
>
> There is a huge gap between the starting PC and the average pedestrian.
> There's quite enough room between the two to adjust a campaign style.

It's a bit of a paradox, really. There's a big gap between the two,
but most of those extra points have to go into stuff the pedestrian
will never need to buy. Take enough points from the starting
character, and he won't be able to mantain a reasonable level of skill
in all the things a shadowrunner is supposed to be competent at. Give
him the same amount of points as a pedestrian, and the shadowrunner
will end up weaker, as he still has to spend points in skills and
powers a pedestrian has no need for.


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 3
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:24:32 -0500
> It's a bit of a paradox, really. There's a big gap between the two,while
> but most of those extra points have to go into stuff the pedestrian
> will never need to buy. Take enough points from the starting
> character, and he won't be able to mantain a reasonable level of skill
> in all the things a shadowrunner is supposed to be competent at. Give
> him the same amount of points as a pedestrian, and the shadowrunner
> will end up weaker, as he still has to spend points in skills and
> powers a pedestrian has no need for.


As terrible as it sounds, I'd disagree. The average pedestrian has just as
many skills spent as the average shadowrunner, period. Remember, a
pedestrian could be you, or me, or anyone else on this list, and while I
don't know how much you know, I do know that for me to turn myself into a
shadowrun character, I'd be well beyond a 160bp character, as would most of
the people I know, and while a fair share of my points would go into combat
based skills too, most people's aren't, large difference between myself and
most of my friends, they've got a large amount of knowledge skills as
opposed to active skills (as they're almost all college graduates) whereas
I've got a well balanced load.

Remember, Pedestrians are just people walking to and from their day
jobs.....The cop that just got off duty and lives 4 blocks from his station
so he walks to and from work to save gas money is a pedestrian ;)
Message no. 4
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:59:55 -0300
On 8/26/06, Derek Hyde <derek@***************.com> wrote:
> Remember, Pedestrians are just people walking to and from their day
> jobs.....The cop that just got off duty and lives 4 blocks from his station
> so he walks to and from work to save gas money is a pedestrian ;)

Actually, I specifically meant "pedestrian" as that old NPC archetype
with 3 in all its attributes and about three skills, the highest of
which was "Day job" at rating 3, or something like that. That NPC is
specifically meant to represent a generic, non-combatant civilian, the
ultimate statistical average.

Is this realistic? Probably not, but it supports the notion that
Shadowrun follows action-movie realism - when was the last time, in
any action movie, in which a nameless extra actually had the power to
affect the story in any way?

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 5
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jérémie_Bouillon)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:58:36 +0200
Bira wrote:
> Take enough points from the starting
> character, and he won't be able to mantain a reasonable level of skill
> in all the things a shadowrunner is supposed to be competent at. Give
> him the same amount of points as a pedestrian, and the shadowrunner
> will end up weaker, as he still has to spend points in skills and
> powers a pedestrian has no need for.

Nope, it hasn't been my experience in the last 16 years toying with SR.
Or at least, it depend on your definition of "enough".

I just took 5 minutes to draw a sample beginner:
B3 A2 R3 S2 C3 I3 L4 W4 Ed2 Ma2
Traits: Magician, Combat paralysis, Sinner, 5 spells, 10K¥
Actives Skills: Sorcery SG 3, Conjuring SG 2, Data Search 1, Etiquette
1, Negociation 1, Perception 1

That's 261 points, let's say 270 to add a little flavor here & there,
maybe more Knowledges. He's a young graduate from some magic school but
barely, nothing fancy, has never be into any kind of real combat, is
allergic to sports. Well, quite a "normal" person, except he has the
Talent, which is no small thing. Maybe he lived in a golden area, you
know a kind of small preserve community, or even in an arcology. He's
still quite young, and something is about to fall from the sky on him
and push him off into the streets where he will learn how to survive.
Quite a regular, plain, basic, and yet full of possibilities, background.

Well I sure would have no problem playing such a character myself, as a
player. And, again myself, I'm quite sure it can be more rewarding on
the long run that any monster with AGI 6+Automatics 7+200K¥ of implants,
because this character have plenty of room to grow, maybe to become
something altogether new and different from my first thoughts. Aka a
real character, not just figures on a paper sheet.

And that's with 270 pts, 67% of a SR4 average starting character. Of
course he will die on his first minute trying to break through a MCT
z-zone, but is that the point? Would a Magic of 7 make a difference? No,
experience does, and experience is much more than just figures. I guess
SR4 authors do agree, because they write down the possibility of playing
a low-level character, built with 300 points.

But again, we all have our style of play. There's no One True Vision.

--
http://shadowrun.fr
Message no. 6
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:27:25 -0300
On 8/26/06, Jérémie Bouillon <jeremie.bouillon@****.fr> wrote:
> Bira wrote:
> > Take enough points from the starting
> > character, and he won't be able to mantain a reasonable level of skill
> > in all the things a shadowrunner is supposed to be competent at. Give
> > him the same amount of points as a pedestrian, and the shadowrunner
> > will end up weaker, as he still has to spend points in skills and
> > powers a pedestrian has no need for.
>
> Nope, it hasn't been my experience in the last 16 years toying with SR.
> Or at least, it depend on your definition of "enough".
>
> I just took 5 minutes to draw a sample beginner:
> B3 A2 R3 S2 C3 I3 L4 W4 Ed2 Ma2
> Traits: Magician, Combat paralysis, Sinner, 5 spells, 10K¥
> Actives Skills: Sorcery SG 3, Conjuring SG 2, Data Search 1, Etiquette
> 1, Negociation 1, Perception 1

He does fit exactly into the model I was describing, tough. This guy
is good at doing one thing (casting spells, and to a lesser degree
summoning), and all his other ratings are at or below average. Lacking
any sort of combat skill and actually having a flaw that paralyses him
in combat, he's at most as defenseless as a "normal pedestrian" -
hardly "action hero" material.


>
> But again, we all have our style of play. There's no One True Vision.

I never said your style was wrong. It's just that long "journeys of
personal growth", for me, translate into "level grinding", and I've
long ago lost the patience for such things.

I'd rather play a competent and powerful character than one who might
become competent after six months of regular weekly sessions, and have
his personal growth play out mostly in roleplaying as opposed to
increasing numbers in his character sheet. There's no reason why
someone with 13 dice in Automatics and a truckload of cyberware can't
be a deeply complex character with a tri-dimensional personality,
after all.


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 7
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:01:31 -0500
> There's no reason why someone with 13 dice in Automatics
> and a truckload of cyberware can't be a deeply complex
> character with a tri-dimensional personality, after all.
>
>

Uhm. 13 dice in automatics? Wouldn't that be a 7 reaction and a 6 Automatics
skill? That jump alone is quite expensive....not to mention putting you into
an easily identifiable category...
Message no. 8
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:59:01 -0300
On 8/26/06, Derek Hyde <derek@***************.com> wrote:
> > There's no reason why someone with 13 dice in Automatics
> > and a truckload of cyberware can't be a deeply complex
> > character with a tri-dimensional personality, after all.
> >
> >
>
> Uhm. 13 dice in automatics? Wouldn't that be a 7 reaction and a 6 Automatics
> skill? That jump alone is quite expensive....not to mention putting you into
> an easily identifiable category...

Or an attribute of 6 and a skill of 7, which are achievable at
character creation with a boatload of points an an edge. It might make
the character infamous for having such a level of skill, but dealing
with that infamy can be the point of some high-powered games. Or it
can just mean combat, when it happens, is over real quick, so the
group can move to more important concerns.



--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 9
From: zebulingod@*****.com (zebulingod)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:16:53 -0700
Bira wrote:
#
#I'd rather play a competent and powerful character than one
#who might become competent after six months of regular weekly
#sessions, and have his personal growth play out mostly in
#roleplaying as opposed to increasing numbers in his character
#sheet. There's no reason why someone with 13 dice in
#Automatics and a truckload of cyberware can't be a deeply
#complex character with a tri-dimensional personality, after all.
#

This paragraph alone makes me cringe. I have yet to meet a player who can
ROLEplay this sort of character effectively. People with characters like
this play a number & dice game, they ROLLplay, in other words.

I can understand not wanting to take the time to get there and build up to
it. At some point, everyone wishes they could start at level 60 and just do
endgame, without having to play 1-59 (to use a game mechanic from world of
warcraft). The problem with this, as I see it, is lack of depth in how they
play the character. They see numbers and they come up with how they think
they should act, rather than having grown into someone who knows how to act
and also has a pretty high skill.

YMMV, and all that, and I'm sure there are probably plenty of players out
there who could do this (they're usually called GMs), but I haven't met one
who didn't play his character from some low-level nothing to that point, and
developed his character along the way.

Myself? I love the level grind, as it were. End game lacks something for me.
*shrug*

Zebulin
Message no. 10
From: allen.versfeld@*****.com (Allen Versfeld)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:27:11 +0200
On 8/26/06, zebulingod <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:

>
> This paragraph alone makes me cringe. I have yet to meet a player who can
> ROLEplay this sort of character effectively. People with characters like
> this play a number & dice game, they ROLLplay, in other words.
>

Speaking as somebody who's run the gamut, from powergamer munchkin at
age 15 to serious roleplayer at age 21 to fulltime GM at age 25 to my
current status of unemployed GM (can't find any players after I moved
town), I realised that I don't necessarily need a deep roleplaying
experience to have fun. I mean... It's a social event. There's an
element of escapism, which makes realistic roleplay essential, but
also requires the character to be better than me.

Example follows, of a superpowered character who provided over 2 years
of very satisfying roleplaying action.

Some time ago, this favourite character died. I had decided that, due
to a very long winded course of events, his rigidly moral black&white
view of the universe had been thoroughly shaken. As he was struggling
to deal with this, he was dealt a deadly wound in combat, but the GM
ruled that he would live - I think the he had as much fun with that
character as I did. I interpreted this as a full on Near Death
Experience, complete with the white light and tunnel. He knew he was
dead, he had seen his god, yet he was walking around. So after about
5 sessions of barely functioning through a state of shock, he suffered
a nervous breakdown in the middle of another combat. He made a series
of really bad judgement calls, which eventually led to him doing
stupid things with some major explosives and dying in a very final and
ultimate manner. Funnily enough, I still can't decide if it was
suicide or not...

Problem with all this was that while I was enjoying playing this
character, I was NOT enjoying his ineffectiveness. He had swung from
being the natural leader of the party (uncompromising moral compass,
tonnes of charisma and when all else failed, he dominated physically
as well) to a hindrance, to being a threat to their survival.

So, he stopped being fun, for both me and the rest of the players,
which is why I killed him off.

My point, I think, is that "Proper Roleplaying" is definitely not the
One True Way. While it was tremendous fun to play the character to
that point, it was inevitable that that character would eventually end
up the way he did. That particular character in the universe could
only fail his ultimate goal. I got as much fun from dealing with the
moral conflicts (one of the party members acts in a way he feels
unbefitting a member of the elven aristocracy, but feels he ranks
lower than them so can't enforce discipline and hilarity ensues) as I
did from seeing him being the biggest and baddest in combat. It's a
balance, you know? On paper, he was ridiculous and overpowered, and
I'm surprised the GM ever allowed me to play him, yet in play he
became a deeply textured, multifaceted, flawed individual. Huge
numbers do not necessarily a bad character make, just like a puny
charcater does not force good roleplay.

Allen
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:50:47 +0200
According to Bira, on 26-8-06 16:27 the word on the street was...

> I'd rather play a competent and powerful character than one who might
> become competent after six months of regular weekly sessions, and have
> his personal growth play out mostly in roleplaying as opposed to
> increasing numbers in his character sheet.

I (mostly) agreed with you on this one. I also want to play characters
who are reasonably good at what they do right from the start, so that I
know that when I try something, I stand a decent chance of success
instead of failing almost every roll. (If I want to do that, I'll go
play wargames -- my dice rolls there always seem to suck ;)

> There's no reason why
> someone with 13 dice in Automatics and a truckload of cyberware can't
> be a deeply complex character with a tri-dimensional personality,
> after all.

There's no reason, no, but in practice the two usually don't go together
anyway :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Executives can use it without reading manuals, which is sort
of our test of ease-of-use." --Steve Jobs
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:32:25 -0300
On 8/27/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> > There's no reason why
> > someone with 13 dice in Automatics and a truckload of cyberware can't
> > be a deeply complex character with a tri-dimensional personality,
> > after all.
>
> There's no reason, no, but in practice the two usually don't go together
> anyway :)

Hey, if /they/ keep abusing hyperbole to make their points, why can't I? :)

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 13
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:40:58 -0300
On 8/26/06, zebulingod <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
> Bira wrote:
> #
> #I'd rather play a competent and powerful character than one
> #who might become competent after six months of regular weekly
> #sessions, and have his personal growth play out mostly in
> #roleplaying as opposed to increasing numbers in his character
> #sheet. There's no reason why someone with 13 dice in
> #Automatics and a truckload of cyberware can't be a deeply
> #complex character with a tri-dimensional personality, after all.
> #
>
> This paragraph alone makes me cringe. I have yet to meet a player who can
> ROLEplay this sort of character effectively. People with characters like
> this play a number & dice game, they ROLLplay, in other words.

The role/roll thing is a bit of a cliche, but I don't think I've ever
seen this inversely proportional relationship between character power
and character depth, or between character power and game fun. The most
fun I've ever had, and some of the best roleplaying I've ever
witnessed, came from playing Exalted, which is a very high-powered
game.

Character development doesn't need to have anything to do with with
the mathematical process of buying up your stats. Even if does take
time to develop a decent personality for a character, that only means
the character has to be played for a long time, /not/ that he has to
start out weak.



> YMMV, and all that, and I'm sure there are probably plenty of players out
> there who could do this (they're usually called GMs), but I haven't met one
> who didn't play his character from some low-level nothing to that point, and
> developed his character along the way.

A GM is just another player, and, from my experience, he usually
occupies that position because he's the one who owns the books. He's
neither necessarily a better player, nor necessarily more "right" than
any of the other members of the group.



--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 16:25:40 +0200
According to Bira, on 27-8-06 14:40 the word on the street was...

> A GM is just another player, and, from my experience, he usually
> occupies that position because he's the one who owns the books.

Well put :) "If you bought the books, you get to GM" might as well be
the roleplayers' motto ...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Executives can use it without reading manuals, which is sort
of our test of ease-of-use." --Steve Jobs
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:30:35 -0300
On 8/27/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Bira, on 27-8-06 14:40 the word on the street was...
>
> > A GM is just another player, and, from my experience, he usually
> > occupies that position because he's the one who owns the books.
>
> Well put :) "If you bought the books, you get to GM" might as well be
> the roleplayers' motto ...
>

Not always. when i was a kid i couldn´t afford any book, but i was the
only one arond who could read english with a reasonable skill, so the
other kids bought the books just for the pics and i had to read
everyone so that i could GM. (Mostly D&D hack&slah, but who cares)

Will
Message no. 16
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:33:08 -0500
>> A GM is just another player, and, from my experience, he usually
>> occupies that position because he's the one who owns the books.
>
> Well put :) "If you bought the books, you get to GM" might as well be
> the roleplayers' motto ...
>
Not always the case.....in my groups I actually try to encourage the others
in the group to take the helm of GMhood occasionally so that I can actually
get to play once in a while. The person who GM's is typically the person
who feels that they can handle all that GM'ing entails, having the books (or
immediate access to them at least) usually comes in handy with that.
Message no. 17
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:03:44 +0200
According to Derek Hyde, on 27-8-06 17:33 the word on the street was...

> Not always the case.....in my groups I actually try to encourage the others
> in the group to take the helm of GMhood occasionally

So do I, but I'm still usually the GM (especially now that the only
other player who actively wants to GM has left the group).

> The person who GM's is typically the person
> who feels that they can handle all that GM'ing entails, having the books (or
> immediate access to them at least) usually comes in handy with that.

In my experience, it's more usually that you buy the books because you
like the game, and then when you try to get other people interested in
it, they simply assume that you will be the one running it, because you
obviously know the most about the game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Executives can use it without reading manuals, which is sort
of our test of ease-of-use." --Steve Jobs
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:10:56 -0400
At 11:33 AM 8/27/2006, Derek Hyde wrote:
>Not always the case.....in my groups I actually try to encourage the others
>in the group to take the helm of GMhood occasionally so that I can actually
>get to play once in a while. The person who GM's is typically the person
>who feels that they can handle all that GM'ing entails, having the books (or
>immediate access to them at least) usually comes in handy with that.

As somebody else mentioned, the ability to GM is most definitely a skill.
In my experience, the best GMs are average-to-good players and the best
players are /awful/ GMs. I've only encountered one exception in my fifteen
years of gaming.

And of course, I'm always the GM. You're right on the books, too... I like
to have the books even as a player, but it usually means I end up GMing a
lot. (Except for D&D, which I play and buy books for, but refuse to run.)

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

PS: Damn FanPro for making the SR4 books hardback. I'm a sucker for hardbacks.
Message no. 19
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:15:32 -0500
> In my experience, it's more usually that you buy the books because you
> like the game, and then when you try to get other people interested in
> it, they simply assume that you will be the one running it, because you
> obviously know the most about the game.

painfully true
oh so painfully true
Message no. 20
From: scotthiller2050@*****.com (Christopher Hiller)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 06:57:33 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Gurth. I just wanted to ask you a quick question: Pertaining to Magic Traditions in
Shadowrun. In 4th Ed, we can make our own, so I was interested in creating a tradition
called "Heritage Magician" and wanted to know if that is cool.

What a Heritage Magician is, is they are characters primarily of multi-racial ancestry
that draw power from a Mentor Spirit that is unique and pertainant to their ancestral
heritage. This is not the Ancestor Magic from 3rd Ed., but draws upon the cultural
influences of the character's unique ancestry.

The Mentor Spirit would be the embodiment of those cultures. For example: Someone who's
British, German, Czechoslovakian, Nigerian, Cherokee, Jewish, Welsh, and Scottish would
have a Mentor Spirit that would embody those cultures. The Mentor Spirit of that Heritage
Magician would be a different embodiment of a different Heritage Magician that is, say, of
Puerto Rican, Italian, Greek, and Russian ancestry.

One thing I wonder about is how would one determine the Advantages and Disadvantages of
each combo? Maybe one culture could be better with the Spirits of Man, while another would
be better with the Spirits of the Sky, or Earth Elemental Spirits? Just wondering. I also
have no idea about how to go about lookingin to that, aside from looking up "cultural
mythos" or something to that effect, on the Internet.

Any suggestions?

-Scott
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote: According to Derek Hyde, on 27-8-06 17:33 the word on
the street was...

> Not always the case.....in my groups I actually try to encourage the others
> in the group to take the helm of GMhood occasionally

So do I, but I'm still usually the GM (especially now that the only
other player who actively wants to GM has left the group).

> The person who GM's is typically the person
> who feels that they can handle all that GM'ing entails, having the books (or
> immediate access to them at least) usually comes in handy with that.

In my experience, it's more usually that you buy the books because you
like the game, and then when you try to get other people interested in
it, they simply assume that you will be the one running it, because you
obviously know the most about the game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Executives can use it without reading manuals, which is sort
of our test of ease-of-use." --Steve Jobs
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998



---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.From
scotthiller2050@*****.com Fri Oct 27 14:58:04 2006
From: scotthiller2050@*****.com (Christopher Hiller)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 06:58:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Heritage Magician
In-Reply-To: <44F1D070.20108@******.nl>
Message-ID: <20061027135804.93196.qmail@********.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi Gurth. I just wanted to ask you a quick question: Pertaining to Magic Traditions in
Shadowrun. In 4th Ed, we can make our own, so I was interested in creating a tradition
called "Heritage Magician" and wanted to know if that is cool.

What a Heritage Magician is, is they are characters primarily of multi-racial ancestry
that draw power from a Mentor Spirit that is unique and pertainant to their ancestral
heritage. This is not the Ancestor Magic from 3rd Ed., but draws upon the cultural
influences of the character's unique ancestry.

The Mentor Spirit would be the embodiment of those cultures. For example: Someone who's
British, German, Czechoslovakian, Nigerian, Cherokee, Jewish, Welsh, and Scottish would
have a Mentor Spirit that would embody those cultures. The Mentor Spirit of that Heritage
Magician would be a different embodiment of a different Heritage Magician that is, say, of
Puerto Rican, Italian, Greek, and Russian ancestry.

One thing I wonder about is how would one determine the Advantages and Disadvantages of
each combo? Maybe one culture could be better with the Spirits of Man, while another would
be better with the Spirits of the Sky, or Earth Elemental Spirits? Just wondering. I also
have no idea about how to go about lookingin to that, aside from looking up "cultural
mythos" or something to that effect, on the Internet.

Any suggestions?

-Scott
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote: According to Derek Hyde, on 27-8-06 17:33 the word on
the street was...

> Not always the case.....in my groups I actually try to encourage the others
> in the group to take the helm of GMhood occasionally

So do I, but I'm still usually the GM (especially now that the only
other player who actively wants to GM has left the group).

> The person who GM's is typically the person
> who feels that they can handle all that GM'ing entails, having the books (or
> immediate access to them at least) usually comes in handy with that.

In my experience, it's more usually that you buy the books because you
like the game, and then when you try to get other people interested in
it, they simply assume that you will be the one running it, because you
obviously know the most about the game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Executives can use it without reading manuals, which is sort
of our test of ease-of-use." --Steve Jobs
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998



---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at
1¢/min.From u.alberton@*****.com Fri Oct 27 16:26:15 2006
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:26:15 -0200
Subject: The Heritage Magician
In-Reply-To: <20061027135804.93196.qmail@********.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <44F1D070.20108@******.nl>
<20061027135804.93196.qmail@********.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d391a7990610270826m2e250ce4g9b53093ead9e6146@****.gmail.com>

On 10/27/06, Christopher Hiller <scotthiller2050@*****.com> wrote:
>
> What a Heritage Magician is, is they are characters primarily of multi-racial
ancestry that draw power from a Mentor Spirit that is unique and pertinent to their
ancestral heritage. This is not the Ancestor Magic from 3rd Ed., but draws upon the
cultural influences of the character's unique ancestry.

I'm not Gurth, but I'll comment :).

This tradition seems awfully specific to me. Is there a reason why you
can't just take a tradition and a mentor spirit appropriate to your
character's personality?

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 21
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: Power of starting PC
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:44:11 -0300
On 10/27/06, Christopher Hiller <scotthiller2050@*****.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Gurth. I just wanted to ask you a quick question: Pertaining to Magic
> Traditions in Shadowrun. In 4th Ed, we can make our own, so I was interested
> in creating a tradition called "Heritage Magician" and wanted to know if
> that is cool.
>
>

Very interesting idea, It fits the way i see the going in the triads, yaks
or even the mafia.

Will

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Thwap!