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Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:33:12 EDT
In a message dated 7/17/1999 8:12:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

>
> I think Mike's question is more, Please tell me you didn't let a
> character become a cyberzombie.

Okay, I admit that in *many* games that are out there, a cyberzombie might be
seen as a big thing. BUT, is it *that* big a deal? Come on, I've been to
Gencon now, and I've sat around the table listening to stories of "home
games" from players that had always led me to believe their games were more
"shadowrun rule abiding" than the ones here, and then had that entire image
shattered.

In some games, a cyberzombie might be a thing worth having. In others, no,
definitely not.

-K
Message no. 2
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 23:03:21 -0400
On 17 Jul 99, at 22:33, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/17/1999 8:12:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:
>
> >
> > I think Mike's question is more, Please tell me you didn't let a
> > character become a cyberzombie.
>
> Okay, I admit that in *many* games that are out there, a cyberzombie might
> be seen as a big thing. BUT, is it *that* big a deal? Come on, I've been
> to Gencon now, and I've sat around the table listening to stories of "home
> games" from players that had always led me to believe their games were
> more "shadowrun rule abiding" than the ones here, and then had that entire
> image shattered.
>
> In some games, a cyberzombie might be a thing worth having. In others,
> no, definitely not.

Well, I'm answering for Mike again it seems, 'cause I see this
first. But in his game, a zero essence character is dead. Isn't
that the way the rules go too? In order to have a cyberzombie
you gotta' have some real heavy mojo juice to make that spirit
stick in that body. I think that for him, this may go back to
what some of the others have been talking about in regards to
equipment and character backgrounds. Who did the magics
and why?

---
That which does not kill me, pisses me off.
-- Smilin' Jack.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 01:02:03 EDT
In a message dated 7/17/1999 10:02:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

> > In some games, a cyberzombie might be a thing worth having. In others,
> > no, definitely not.
>
> Well, I'm answering for Mike again it seems, 'cause I see this
> first. But in his game, a zero essence character is dead. Isn't
> that the way the rules go too? In order to have a cyberzombie
> you gotta' have some real heavy mojo juice to make that spirit
> stick in that body. I think that for him, this may go back to
> what some of the others have been talking about in regards to
> equipment and character backgrounds. Who did the magics
> and why?

Oh I do agree that a cyberzombie as a *beginning* character isn't such a good
idea, for *one* option a street samurai could pursue over time, it isn't such
a bad thing. And besides, if it were done over time, then the development
and even the pursuit of the magic (I'm not touching your *MOJO* buddy ;-)
necessary to perform the procedure would make for some seriously cool games
in and unto themselves.

-K
Message no. 4
From: Michael & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@*****.msn.com
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 01:38:00 -0400
Nightshade:
>Well, I'm answering for Mike again it seems, 'cause I see this
>first. But in his game, a zero essence character is dead. Isn't
>that the way the rules go too? In order to have a cyberzombie
>you gotta' have some real heavy mojo juice to make that spirit
>stick in that body. I think that for him, this may go back to
>what some of the others have been talking about in regards to
>equipment and character backgrounds. Who did the magics
>and why?


That's OK, you're doing fine for me. :)

From what I read in the rules 0.0 essence = dead (physical and aura
templates no longer align, you're dead unless cybermancy is done).

Actually, I would never allow a starting character to become a cyborg. I
don't believe any person would subject themselves to this, given the nature
of it (especially the way Hatchetman describes it). I could believe that a
5.9 essence Samurai that takes one to many hits could eventually follow that
path in story, but that's up to roleplaying chance. I typically object to
the "doomed or dark hero" concept. Most, but not all (NOT ALL) are usually
not in it for the story capacity of the scenario, but rather the bonus
options it entails. To provide example I had a player (power gamer) that
installed a move by wire system in his character. I initially warned him
that I would make him roll for the cyber disease (TLeX or CCSS) at about 3
months or so (whatever the rules specified). He looked at me like I had
babbled utter nonsense. He never considered the negative of the gear, only
the positive.

This reminds me of some rules from Paranoia regarding mutant powers: if the
player likes their power, then you're (the GM) not handling it correctly. If
you really find playing a cyborg a piece of cake then some counter-balance
aspect is being missed and you should talk to your GM about it.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 5
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:14:46 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 22:33 on 17 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> In some games, a cyberzombie might be a thing worth having. In others, no,
> definitely not.

It is largely dependent on the kind of game you want to play, and on
whether the player(s) can handle it, IMO. I have allowed one cyberzombie
to be created as a new character (made as a normal character, costing IIRC
25 points in the Building Point system, and with a number of mandatory
flaws). The character worked okay in the campaign we were playing, though
it came to an end after only two adventures, and I felt the player didn't
do too bad either -- she didn't make the character a combat monster or
semi-Robocop (not even a single cyberlimb, for example) and focused more
on the roleplaying possibilities of a cyberzombie (in this case, overly
paranoid) than the powergaming possibilities.

Under these circumstances, I have no problem with a cyberzombie. OTOH if a
player wants a cyberzombie only to make the most powerful, archetypal
street-sam-without-a-past possible, or if I were GMing a street level
campaign, I'd say "no."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Cooking with the devil, frying down in hell.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:10:20 -0400
At 01.38 07-18-99 -0400, you wrote:
>From what I read in the rules 0.0 essence = dead (physical and aura

Thats why they called zombies. <g>

>babbled utter nonsense. He never considered the negative of the gear, only
>the positive.

Like people who use steroids and similiar performance enhancing drugs.
Roll the cyberpsychosis checks for him. Other ways to deal with it: hassle
him. That much cyber can be picked up passing LS/KE units, DW sends him a
check for the remainder of thier contract with him and suggests that he
join Triple A or a similiar auto club, have him have to use troll-size
furniture due to his increased weight. My personal favorite would be a
varient on the rockworm that eats metal and polymers. <g>




CyberRaven
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 7
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:33:00 -0400
On 18 Jul 99, at 1:38, Michael & Linda Frankl wrote:

> but rather the bonus options it entails. To provide example I had a player
> (power gamer) that installed a move by wire system in his character. I
> initially warned him that I would make him roll for the cyber disease
> (TLeX or CCSS) at about 3 months or so (whatever the rules specified). He
> looked at me like I had babbled utter nonsense. He never considered the
> negative of the gear, only the positive.

And those that have their character use Kamakazi.
"Hey, I can use up to two doses, right?" 'Course, when they
turned against the rest of the group, we were ready and willing
to use that against them with a narcojet pistol. :-)

Or (same players) "Let's put an incenerator in the back of our
van." Mike's response, "You're going to drive around with the
fuel to run it strapped to your vehicle?"

Or (same players, same situation) "How about an acid bath?"
Mike's response, "Okay, now you're going to drive around
town with a tank of acid strapped on your vehicle?"

Some things just don't make good fraggin' common sense.


---
I can see that you have a lot to unlearn.
If you are talking about my vulgar instinct for survival,
forget it.
--Hugi; Corwin, Prince of Amber,
The Courts of Chaos, by Roger Zelazny


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 8
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:46:48 -0700
> On 18 Jul 99, at 1:38, Michael & Linda Frankl wrote:
>
> > but rather the bonus options it entails. To provide example I
> had a player
> > (power gamer) that installed a move by wire system in his character. I
> > initially warned him that I would make him roll for the cyber disease
> > (TLeX or CCSS) at about 3 months or so (whatever the rules
> specified). He
> > looked at me like I had babbled utter nonsense. He never considered the
> > negative of the gear, only the positive.

I had a player try to use Move By Wire before I banned all the non third
edition gear books. When I did ban them he at one pointed stated "I wanted
move by wire cause it's not too powerful and doesn't have all the side
effects of Wired Reflexes or Boosted Reflexes".

So I quoted off all the fun things that can happen to someone using it...
and got silence.


Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:25:06 EDT
In a message dated 7/18/1999 4:42:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> she didn't make the character a combat monster or
> semi-Robocop (not even a single cyberlimb, for example) and focused more
> on the roleplaying possibilities of a cyberzombie (in this case, overly
> paranoid) than the powergaming possibilities.
>
> Under these circumstances, I have no problem with a cyberzombie. OTOH if a
> player wants a cyberzombie only to make the most powerful, archetypal
> street-sam-without-a-past possible, or if I were GMing a street level
> campaign, I'd say "no."

Gurth, I think you hit the nail pretty squarely on this one. For some
reason, whenever someone thinks/hears/reads the term "Cyberzombie" (or even
Cybermancy), they often times think "Combat Monster" or "Powergamer"
(or
worse ;). However, there are a LOT of cybernetic implants that could be done
which have absolutely NOTHING to do with direct, melee style, combat. Matrix
Interface technology can also become incredibly essence consuming. I also
seem to recall Tactical Computer being a monstrous bite-taker as well.
Vehicle Control Rig, while having multiple purposes, is also not directly
something of this nature.

I had always considered one of the *couple* cybermantically modified people
that Fuchi (now Novatech) ever kept around was actually a
super-decker/operator of sorts. One, maybe two sets of cranial-decks, or
even just cyberlimbs with cyberdeck internals and perhaps a built-in CCSS
system to co-parallel building security or something else with.

Sure, we all tend to think of "combat monster", but that is entirely on how
the terminology is viewed.

-K
Message no. 10
From: Michael & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@*****.msn.com
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:34:38 -0400
I wrote:
>>babbled utter nonsense. He never considered the negative of the gear, only
>>the positive.

Ironraven replied:
> Like people who use steroids and similiar performance enhancing drugs.
>Roll the cyberpsychosis checks for him. Other ways to deal with it: hassle
>him. That much cyber can be picked up passing LS/KE units, DW sends him a
>check for the remainder of thier contract with him and suggests that he
>join Triple A or a similiar auto club, have him have to use troll-size
>furniture due to his increased weight. My personal favorite would be a
>varient on the rockworm that eats metal and polymers

My concern was based on the fact that he had been playing this character
concept somewhere else and the issue was never raised. I believe in the the
concept of TANSTAAFL ("there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"), from
Robert Heinlein. Everything has checks and balance, and I also tell my
players to see me if they find something that has tremendous power and no
down side (usually something was missed). I just shudder when a player has
been allowed to run in rampant munchkin mode for so long.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 11
From: Michael & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@*****.msn.com
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:57:46 -0400
K brilliantly observed:
>Gurth, I think you hit the nail pretty squarely on this one. For some
>reason, whenever someone thinks/hears/reads the term "Cyberzombie" (or even
>Cybermancy), they often times think "Combat Monster" or
"Powergamer" (or
>worse ;). However, there are a LOT of cybernetic implants that could be
done
>which have absolutely NOTHING to do with direct, melee style, combat.

I just never seemed to have met one yet. I would enjoy having someone play
that angle, but it just seems I've run into too many essence pushers for
combat. Fortunately, my group is pretty steady headed right now. Of course
as I grow older my tolerance for munchkinism wanes.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:07:50 +0200
According to Arcady, at 8:46 on 18 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> I had a player try to use Move By Wire before I banned all the non third
> edition gear books. When I did ban them he at one pointed stated "I wanted
> move by wire cause it's not too powerful and doesn't have all the side
> effects of Wired Reflexes or Boosted Reflexes".
>
> So I quoted off all the fun things that can happen to someone using it...
> and got silence.

If I were in the same situation, I'd likely have allowed the MBW anyway,
probably with an "I know something you don't" grin on my face ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Cooking with the devil, frying down in hell.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:07:50 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 12:25 on 18 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Gurth, I think you hit the nail pretty squarely on this one. For some
> reason, whenever someone thinks/hears/reads the term "Cyberzombie" (or even

> Cybermancy), they often times think "Combat Monster" or
"Powergamer" (or
> worse ;). However, there are a LOT of cybernetic implants that could be done
> which have absolutely NOTHING to do with direct, melee style, combat.

To be honest, the character's cyberware did have a lot of uses in combat
(stuff like dermal sheathing, hand razors, smartlink, initiative
enhancements, etc.) but that didn't mean the player plunged the character
into combat every chance she got. Actually she tried to avoid it as much
as possible, not in the least because the character knew she was
technically dead already (if not at first, then certainly once the group's
Eadle shaman (!) started reminding her of it), and didn't want to die
completely.

> Matrix Interface technology can also become incredibly essence
> consuming.

If you want a good C3 deck, certainly.

> I also seem to recall Tactical Computer being a monstrous bite-taker as
> well.

Yes, unfortunately the higher levels don't list an Essence cost so you
have to come up with some numbers yourself :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Cooking with the devil, frying down in hell.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:12:48 -0700
>
>
> Like people who use steroids and similiar performance enhancing
> drugs.
>Roll the cyberpsychosis checks for him. Other ways to deal with it: hassle
>him. That much cyber can be picked up passing LS/KE units, DW sends him a
>check for the remainder of thier contract with him and suggests that he
>join Triple A or a similiar auto club, have him have to use troll-size
>furniture due to his increased weight. My personal favorite would be a
>varient on the rockworm that eats metal and polymers. <g>

On a side note, i created the equivalent of the cyberpunk cyberpsycho squad
for a SR game. Someone sees a hevily chromed PC laying waste where they
should not be somone panics and calls the Cyberpsycho squad.

They shoot first and ask questions later too. I had to use this once when
a PC starting to get out of hand decided to go after some gang in the
middle of the street during daytime hours and started showing off big-time
his capabilties.

Let's say after that lesson they learned two things a. need to be subtle
b. cyberware is good, but it can have some nasty drawbacks that are not
always obvious.


--Lomion
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Power (Re: tattoo magic/cyber zombie)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:36:41 EDT
Pardon me all, its' been a few days...playing catchup...

In a message dated 7/18/1999 12:58:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mlfrankl@*****.msn.com writes:

> >Gurth, I think you hit the nail pretty squarely on this one. For some
> >reason, whenever someone thinks/hears/reads the term "Cyberzombie" (or

even
> >Cybermancy), they often times think "Combat Monster" or
"Powergamer" (or
> >worse ;). However, there are a LOT of cybernetic implants that could be
> done
> >which have absolutely NOTHING to do with direct, melee style, combat.
>
> I just never seemed to have met one yet. I would enjoy having someone play
> that angle, but it just seems I've run into too many essence pushers for
> combat. Fortunately, my group is pretty steady headed right now. Of course
> as I grow older my tolerance for munchkinism wanes.

Actually, we had *one* of these, and a really particular time, he chose to
have the character "fade away".



"Steve" was a cybermantically modified individual who had apparently been
working with either Ares or the UCAS Military. Apparently, at some point in
the past, several regions of his cognitive mind were damaged, as well as his
neural pathways leading below the cerebellum. He had been a tactician at
some point, and already possessed tactical and ASIST type stuff (cranial
deck, a VCR, and a BTAC). He had MBW added afterwards.

Well, as the story goes, the entire group is tricked into crossing the
Aztlan/CAS border near the Pueblo Corporate southeastern corner. This is
happening along the same time as an Aztlan/CAS conflict (war, police action,
who cares..) and PCC had already specifically stated it was entering into a
"non-interaction" mode with regards to both nations, in order to stay out of
the activity. PCC was also actively turning back BOTH groups that were
trying to smuggle their way back and forth across their border for surprise
attacks.

Anyway, the group gets a call via short-wave from a mechanic buddy of theirs.
He had been enlisted with the CAS military, had gotten caught with his unit
behind enemy lines, and when the unit called for assistance, their commanders
couldn't offer any to them. He remembers his friends with the T-Bird, and
gets in touch with them instead. They agree of course (what are friends and
contact building for if not for salvation once in a while?).

They sneak their own way past the border, using the Rio Grande and some great
form Desert AND River spirits to slip into an area the military was calling
"the Noose". When the group gets there, they don't find anything at all
except for remnants of a *somebodies* temporary encampment. What they did
wind up in was a net. Literally. Two Aztlan Lobo-Grandes' (T-Birds with
attitude) were hidden beneath Masked Desert Spirits using Concealment on
Camo-Netting in depressions (yep, they were hidden). A massive cable-based
net was launched via rockets and landed across "Beauty". (the teams TBird)
Big, nasty, firefight ensues ... end score, Aztlan units beaten back/killed,
party's craft damaged beyond flight ability. Who came to help them?

A real CAS team that had been caught behind lines using Mortar-type
ammunition with Laser-guidance. Their problem was they lacked real mobility.

Steve helped in the tactical coordination, and even to the point of capturing
one of the two Aztlan LAV's (which had been downed, but not totally wiped),
and using its' parts (along with a LOT of Fix spells and B/R die rolls), were
able to get Beauty up and running again. The remaining members of the CAS
team either crammed into the storage space, or literally used the netting to
hang-on to the outside of Beauty. The group then began the tedious task of
recrossing the distance, heading for Austin as best they could (in our games,
since the maps were vague at the time, we decided Austin was a disputed
territory). It was a painful, even frightening, session getting back across
the border, knowing that a trio of Aguilars and two more Lobo-Grande's were
now dispatched onto their trail. In the end, the group made it. Only one or
two of the CAS team were lost en-route, and overall it was played out very
well.

The CAS government was very glad to have their men back, made a big media
issue out of it (raise Morale anyway you can), and even awarded the PC's with
stuff (you know, access to B/R facilities, neutral agreements on occasion,
mercenary contract potential).

But, as Binder (now Padre) was returning to Beauty, where Steve had been
performing a final shutdown and post-flight check ... he found their
tactician asleep, now forever, in the seat. Within the navcomp of the
machine, Beasts' turret actually ("Beast" is the name given to the primary
railgun/turret's secondary tactical system), Binder found a message that goes
more or less like this ...

"...it felt good again, knowing that I had helped save this team who were
fighting for what they believed, when I had failed to save the team I was
once a part of. It has been a real pleasure working with all of you, and am
glad knowing that I have been a member of the Crew. Good Luck Always, your
friend ... Lt. Colonel Steve (*last name I have forgotten*); signing off...."

<end story mode>

So, as a notice to anyone that thinks Cybermantic characters always have to
be real "combat monsters", I would suggest that you all think again about
it....

-K (yes, this is from where the group of PC's got their team name as well)

Further Reading

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Thwap!