| From: | Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Practical Thors |
| Date: | Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:03:45 -0400 |
Adam[SMTP:shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK] wrote:
> As you say: depends on the target you're after.
>
> The UCAS probably doesn't quake in its boots at the mention of THOR
> these days, but if the nation of Uckfay Ouyay decides to get rowdy with
> Ares, then the Presidential Palace, the main military barracks and a few
> other key points might grow craters the next time a particular satellite
> passes overhead...
Exactly.
> >Is every satellite with military potential followed by a killersat in
205X?
>
> Almost certainly not, but the sensor birds would be. Shoot out the eyes
> and the system's blind.
Oh, I image that most of the players with ASAT capability have the navsats
zeroed in with *some* sort of ASAT system, whether it be a SOM, laser, or
hitch-hiker. Given that commsats are much higher (and about the only thing
*in* geosynch, there aren't enough good slots) they will be a little safer.
> Also, I'll bet that the UCAS has one or more lasers able to maim
> satellites in orbit: either high-powered ground sites or systems like
> AOA, putting the laser on an aircraft and shooting from above the
> thickest atmosphere.
I'm quite sure of that.
> Of course, if your nation/corporation can't afford that...
Exactly.
> >Its a hell of a cost, especially when surface to orbit missiles are as
> >cheap, non-dedicated, and not as obvious. ("Hey Fuchi, why did you just
put
> >a sat next to our peaceful commsat?")
>
> "It's a navigational beacon. Space is free. Bug off." :) After all,
> lofting orbital weapons is a fairly aggressive move: someone positioning
> countermeasures is hardly escalation.
Assuming the sat is *obviously* a weapon system of some kind. Me, I'd keep
a SOM on just about anything that orbits, and put hitch-hikers only one
those that I *know* to be a threat.
> >> Which makes the sensor platform and the datalinks key targets for
either
> >> hard or soft kill. Again, it's weapon systems, not individual
hardware.
> >
> >OK. But if it suddenly starts raining Thor, the CV-group has to deal
with
> >the incoming shots before they can deal with the launch platform.
>
> Again: countermeasures based on preventing that first shot.
>
> Shades of the Cold War, really... ;)
That's my point. The Thor/ASAT nations can't really expect to use their
space-to-ground weapons except as a surprise first strike, but they have
relative impunity in dealing with non Thor/ASAT nations, especially since
dropping Thor on someone who doesn't have it is unlikely to provoke the
kind of brinkmanship and global outcry that something like the UK *nuking*
Argentina would have. Thor, after all, is a relatively precise weapon when
it doesn't have to deal with moving targets or effective countermeasures.
> >And if
> >the platform was just launched (as sort of a modernized FOBS system;
that
> >is, the Thor platform is launched from the OpFor interior into a
fractional
> >orbit which will cross over the are in which the CV-group is thought to
be
> >in, it detects the target and engages with Thorshot. Of course, you can
> >still jam the guidance link/detection gear.)
>
> Now a FOBS THOR is genuinely nasty, and I hadn't thought of that option
> before.
I only thought about it while I was writing the post. I thought "If Thor is
technically possible, then FOBS Thor is merely a matter of engineering." In
many ways, it would seem to be the ICBM of the 21st century. *Caution:
thoughts not well formed ahead.*
You'd probably have to use an aircraft as the "first stage." A Thor packet
would probably be to heavy for even a Saturn V-type rocket to get it up to
LEO (weight of the kill vehicle is one of the reasons the US ASAT system is
launched off an F-15, AFAIK. The '-15 is much more efficient at crossing
the atmosphere than a rocket would be) especially since the packet has to
carry target-locating sensors. After all, if a FOBS-type Thorsat is
necessary, it is quite likely that reconsats like short and exciting lives.
So basically, an aircraft lifts it as high as it can, a small booster
brings it up to LEO, it waits until it acquires targets, and has a good
ballistic to them, launches, and then, very likely, follows the crowbars
in(if nothing else, so as to prevent unfriendly recovery.)
In this scenario, it becomes a race between the satellite to acquire launch
position, and the ground target to detect the satellite, plot its course,
and intercept it with an ASAT weapon before weapons release. After weapons
release, it becomes the job of the "point defense" systems (sort of
strange, considering that these systems would start coverage at almost the
edge of the atmosphere) to intercept/deflect all of the incoming crowbars
(and possibly launcher) before they hit their targets.
> >Please note: I am not saying that any of the points you have brought up
are
> >invalid. I'm saying that Thor probably exists in 205X Shadowrun, and
that
> >countermeasures that can be carried about a ship exist as well. The
> >original start of this thread was that I thought that the Firetrack
system
> >as presented in the Lone Star sourcebook made a lot of sense as such a
> >system.
>
> Agreed completely. This is a system for most forces to fear, corporate
> or national. A handful of players can counter it, but for most it's the
> sword of Damocles over their heads.
>
> I know from experience that some, unchecked, will claim it as the
> ultimate unstoppable weapon, so I play devil's advocate to point out how
> you could (with enough money) defeat it. Most forces don't have the
> budget for more than the most basic countermeasures, though...
You don't say! <gasp, in shock and horror> :)
All of your countermeasures are perfectly valid. Heck, I started this
thread discussing a countermeasure (and a relatively low-tech one at that.)
To bring this back to practical shadowrunning, what if someone like, say,
Human Nation (Threats) got ahold of one of the above-mentions FOBS-Thor
packages, and an aircraft suitable for launching it? What if they *built*
the thing, and "lost" it from one of their contracts? Or otherwise acquired
it without a government or corp quite being aware of it? And say a group of
PCs stumble across evidence during a run? Who's going to believe them?
("You're trying to tell me Alamos 20K has a Thor system? Pull the other
one, it's got bells on it!" "Our records show no missing Thor packages.
What's your SIN again?" yadda yadda yadda)
So now they've got to find the hidden base and stop the launch, before
orbital rain falls on (target of HN choice). I'd select a Tir, simply
because a Tir *will* be able to trace the launch location back, and might
very well take a potshot or two of their own at the offending nation's
capitol (or at least, the launch site) before calming down (Very touchy,
those elves.) Anyone want to argue that Tir Tairngire, at least, doesn't
have Thor capability?
(Insert a nation-backed terrorist group for Human Nation, if they offend
you. A sovereign nation could possibly acquire the necessary equipment for
at least a rudimentary Thor capability.)
Just a random run idea, based on the premise that almost *anything* can be
a plot device.
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
