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Message no. 1
From: CaBil <CaBil@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:44:01 EST
Hi folks, I'm new to list, but I feel I ought to pipe up here. You see, I
wrote the third adventure (Baser Instincts) that's causing some of the
consternation over P/P. Figure that I could shed some light on it, and what I
was thinking of at the time.

Spoiler Space because someone else started it

















Erik Jameson: Sorry, but I never even heard of your web page. When I first
heard about the project from Mike, it was mentioned that several of the
adventures were already set in the wilderness. I figured my proposal would
have a better chance of being accepted if I placed my adventure in urban
environment, as sort of an alternative to the wilderness environments. (For
the record, I did send in another proposal with a wilderness location, but it
got booted. I was covering all my bases.) From there, I needed a rationale,
something made the critters something more than just ammo bait, something that
gave them purpose. I thought a corporation behind it would be too obvious,
and some magical group would be hard pressed to come up with a good reason to
randomly cause destruction. Plus, I wanted the animals to be the focus here,
not some other group. Having some spirit being responsible, that is at best
glimpsed at, would make the animals the focus, the danger. I could tie it in
with some old stuff in the Seattle book (the success of the FLZG at breeding
animals). Plus, the alien nature and logic of a spirit would help allow me to
keep the secret of what the spirit is really up to without leaving the players
hanging. Not enough for the players to know what is really going on, but
enought to feel that they accomplished something. Plus to encourage a mild
sense of unease, of what else is this thing doing out there. I admit, The
Tutor article in Threats opened my eyes of the possible use of astral entities
for these sort of situations. I added the 'captain's chair' descripation of
the Astral power in the final draft, after I read Jon Szeto's descripation of
rigger controls
And when all is said and done, I really like horror. I know I didn't
accomplish that, but I wanted to do is shake up some preconceptions, make
players uneasy in their understanding of animals and their place in the world.
An astral entity, weird acting animals, the sewer sequence, I like to think
that the adventure can unsettle some players that are willing to buy into it.
Of course, I am the writer, so that's a fallacy I know I operate under.
And yes, I know what the spirit is/wants. I hope to tell a little more
about it one of these days. For now 'It will hunt again'

Tom Price: Nope, it isn't a Horror. But if that works in your campaign,
please use it as one.

Okay, this is just random commentary, feel free to ignore. Umm, you see,
I never thought of Horrors are, well horrorific. They want to deal out pain.
Okay. But horror, for me at least, is the unknown and the unknownable. The
fringe of awareness, the edge of woods, the closed door, the mystery so heavy
that it crushes the breath from you. The astral entity is more like that. It
doesn't want to cause pain, or gets it jollies from hurting people. It's more
alien than that, it has a set goals, in which in pursuit of them it will do
apparently contradictionary actions. It may cause a crash of jetliner, help a
corporation pollute a location by killing off a local speices, stop crosstown
traffic in a small town by blocking the intersection with a sleeping Piasma,
kill wageslave working in a small electronics factory in the CAS by forcing
her stomach bacteria to multiple so rapidly that it fills her lungs in
seconds, and alter the path of Behemoth by five meters, all on the same day.
Why? Unknown. And it is that not knowing, wondering what this all means,
that I think is unsettling. There is a reason why it's here, but when I
wrote it, it wasn't thinking of an escaped Horror, or even anything to do the
spike point, and that stuff.

But it being a Horror from the spike point work fine, I left the whole issue
untouched so people could go in any direction, and have fun with it, so go
with it.

Brett Borger: I agree, the adventure I wrote is linear. But my first draft
was over 7K over my target. And that was after I cut out three additional
scenes, more suspects other than Disball, and a subplot with the Johnson.
Mike, for some reason I couldn't understand, was reluctant to let me have 128
pages for the adventure. So I had to cut something, and keep the general flow
the adventure/story going, so out went all the scenes that explored side
passages of the adventure. In other words...

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. It's all my fault...

But on the other hand, I'm still interested in feedback on the adventure. I'm
the writer, I'm here to be abused, and I joined the list specifically to see
what people liked/hated/loathed about the adventure. I'm willing to listen,
especially to the bad stuff, so that next time (if there is a next time, of
course) I can hopefully do a better job.

Anyway, thanks for your time, and please continue with the discussion/feedback

Respectfully,
Bill Aguiar
Message no. 2
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:13:24 EST
<snipped a nice posting from Bill Aguilar...>

HEY GUYS! Here's yet another contributor, let's make him feel welcome...

-K
Message no. 3
From: Kristling Ravenwing <kristling@*******.CROSSWINDS.NET>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:30:49 -0500
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> <snipped a nice posting from Bill Aguilar...>
>
> HEY GUYS! Here's yet another contributor, let's make him feel welcome...
>
> -K
Okay.
<starts his band up, loads his 250 daisy chained carp cannons>\
Da da da da da da da da
BOOM splat
Da da da da da da da da
BOOM splat
Da da da da da da da da
BOOM splat
Da da da da da da da da
BOOM splat
Da da da da da da da da
BOOM splat
Da da da da da da da da
BOOM splat
Da da da da da da da da
BOOM splat
Da da da da da da da da
BOOM splat
( and so on )

**sighs, paints a target on his back. "Just make sure the carp ain't too old,
eh guys?"***
Message no. 4
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:12:13 +0000
And verily, did Kristling Ravenwing hastily scribble thusly...
|**sighs, paints a target on his back. "Just make sure the carp ain't too old,
|eh guys?"***
|

Sorry old chum.
But we always use the same carp.
The 1000 year old one.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 5
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:35:08 -0600
We, of course, want to see what was left on the cutting room floor, if only a thumbnail
sketch...



rabiola@**.netcom.com

Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire Juhafa Vadic, Nethermancer
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome... Many speak ill of the path I walk...
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:09:18 -0500
Aw heck Bill, I didn't *really* think that FASA/you had ripped me off. I
just noticed that there are some very odd similarities between your
adventure and the storyline that James Cueno and I did on the ShadowTK
mailing list. If you dig up the "Kaer of Dogs" storyline in the TK
archives, I think you'll agree actually.

I think it's a case of strange coincidence; SR is kinda a small world, we
have all seen cases where we have come up with the same ideas all at
different times with no real contact between individuals. We aren't
ripping each other off, we're just coming up with what we think are
original ideas. So there aren't any hard feelings, and I didn't intend any.

Maybe your spirit is a horror, maybe it's not. I think you left that door
wide open for GM interpretation. Which is cool by me.

As for those people who think the whole book sucks, I would have to
disagree. If it is run properly, I think any of those three could be very
cool, not to mention very frightening.

Which brings me to the major drawback to FASA's current method of
publishing adventures. With a good GM and a solid group, the new scheme
works great, allowing for a lot more creativity and color, not to mention
fun. But not everyone is a good GM. For those people, these adventures
bite. When you aren't given stats for opponents, when you aren't given
some sort of defined plot line, it can be very difficult to bring that
adventure to life. The old linear, clearly defined adventures were crystal
clear in what was supposed to happen, and when. That's easy to GM. The
new adventures aren't.

I really think that FASA should try to find more of a middle ground for
their adventure frameworks. Give us more details, more structure, but not
so much as to stifle us.

Enough for me for now.

Erik J.
Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:49:09 EST
> As for those people who think the whole book sucks, I would have to
> disagree. If it is run properly, I think any of those three could
> be very cool, not to mention very frightening.

"If it is run properly" being the problem. In my mind, no linear
adventure is worth publishing (to Bill: I can see linear isn't really
your fault. Take all comments as directed to whomever decided linear
was the way to go). If I want a linear adventure, I'll read a book.
If I want a plotline that the players take off from and do their own
thing, I'd want a LARGE collection of mini-ideas, like Sprawl Sites
had. If I want an adventure that covers at least some alternatives,
thus making it worth something besides the initial idea, I won't buy
P&P.

I have limited experience with modules, prefering to run my own
thing, but even from my limited experience I can see that P&P is
VERY linear (Particularly the first adventure, Forbidden Fruit).
Even the adventures in the NAN books gave at least a basic decision
tree structure.

> Which brings me to the major drawback to FASA's current method of
> publishing adventures. With a good GM and a solid group, the new
> scheme works great, allowing for a lot more creativity and color,
> not to mention fun. But not everyone is a good GM. For those
> people, these adventures bite. When you aren't given stats for
> opponents, when you aren't given some sort of defined plot line, it
> can be very difficult to bring that adventure to life. The old
> linear, clearly defined adventures were crystal clear in what was
> supposed to happen, and when. That's easy to GM. The new
> adventures aren't.

I'm assuming you are refering to the "tracked" method of many planned
books. I'm not sure I understand why you included this here...P&P
definitely IS linear and not tracked. Above, you state that P&P is
bad for good GM's. Above that, you say that a good GM can do great
things with P&P.

Personally, I'm all for publishing adventures for the "good" GM's.
While we (I'll presume I count as one) don't need modules, it's
always nice to "be involved" in the evolution of the SR universe. I
speak here having not tried Mob War, which, as I understand it, is
the only "tracked" adventure currently published.

-=SwiftOne=-
Not opinionated, just right.

>
> I really think that FASA should try to find more of a middle ground
> for their adventure frameworks. Give us more details, more
> structure, but not so much as to stifle us.
>
> Enough for me for now.
>
> Erik J.
Message no. 8
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:52:59 -0005
On 2 Mar 98 at 14:09, Erik Jameson wrote:

<big snip>
> I really think that FASA should try to find more of a middle ground for
> their adventure frameworks. Give us more details, more structure, but
> not so much as to stifle us.
>
To that end an off the cuff idea. Adventures written with "Beginners"
"Intermediate" and "Advanced" players / GMs in mind. A Beginner
adventure would be very structured and well thought out, basically
providing everything a new GM needs. Intermediate would be less
structured with more general info and some options for varying the plot
line. Advanced would be nealy completely unstructured, a plot idea,
general info (maps of the area involved, etc.), some notes on important
NPCs, etc. Basic adventures can be run straight off the shelf with no
real prep work by the GM, Intermediate will require the GM do a bit of
preparing, Advanced will require the GM do plenty of prep work and have a
solid knowledge of the game.

Just my two bits.
--
@>->,-`---
Ashelock
o=<======-

GM's Theme: "I am the eye in the sky, looking at you, I can see your lies.
I am the maker of rules, dealing in fools, I can cheat you blind."
Message no. 9
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:19:49 +0100
Swiftone wrote about P&P being linear and not something he would use.

That made me think about what a GM's job is. I've had reason, recently, to do
some thinking about it, so I might just as well write what I think on the
subject.

First a little look at what constitutes a linear adventure, what is bad about
it ...and what's good about it.

A linear adventure is one where the players do not have much, if any, free
will. Also, if *in addition* the results of their actions are decided
arbitrarily, then it is very linear. The advantages of a linear adventure is
that the GM can plan the adventure in great detail, and have a lot of detail
prepared. It can be fun, but unless pulled off flawlessly and giving the
*illusion* of free will, the players will feel the GM told them a story, not
that they were part of one. And that is not nearly as involving. And that
defeats the purpose of the great detail of the adventure.

A freeform adventure is one where the players are the key to every action.
Almost nothing happens without them in one way or another starting it. It can
be interesting, and the GM only needs to think fast on his feet, not plan
anything at all. Thus many experienced GM's do that. But that isn't all good
either, because that leads to a story poor in plot and purpose. Especially
for those days the players aren't feeling very driven...

What is the purpose of the GM? He is there to weave together the actions of
the players into a plot and create a believable and entertaining story. The
rules are there as a tool, a foundation, to make it believable, but a further
requirement is fairness and consistency on the GM's part. Without fairness
and consistency, believability disappears. Secondly, entertaining.
Entertaining doesn't imply 'fun'. Horror, exhiliration, or deeply disturbing
can also be entertaining. For a story to be entertaining it needs a
background, or a setting, evreyone can relate to or understand. The rules
provide this - it's called Seattle. (And all the rest, depending on how many
books you've bought). In my opinion it needs a plot, a drama, for the players
to participate in. This drama might be - should be - colored by the player's
backgrounds in its inception, must be colored by their actions in its
unfolding, and wether they live or die in its close.


So, how can you say what is a good GM? I dunno.
This is the way a typical campaign goes, for good and bad...:

The players make their characters. One in particular absolutely refuses to
make a final decision, and will make 'minor alterations' or outright
character changes for at least the first two months. I run a number of
'loose' adventures trying to get a feel for their characters. I often get a
campaign idea fairly early, which I 'air' in an adventure or two before it's
firmly set. Then I go into planning overdrive in creating a background
premise, probable conclusion, and a possible route there. Hm.. an example.

Ok. It's a while back and I don't have my papers here, but ok.
The runners were 'tested wether they were trustworthy - hired to steal a
chip for pocket change, and was offered 300K to sell it to someone else, and
bring the original commissioner a good forgery. They declined. (Surprised me
a bit they didn't take it.). The real employer was a corporate assassin with
a cortex bomb. (Winged badass chrome lord). This assassin, Uranus, worked
with a small black op organization in MCT. The new boss was taking certain
liberties, using the pressure of the cortex bomb, and Uranus wanted out. But
it had to be done *QUIETLY* and she could not do it herself, or she'd get
brains all over her wings. The runners would then be hired to find the
trigger codes in the clinic in Chiba and replace them, then do the same to
the core in Tokyo and whatever other copies, and finally steal the black
trigger box in the boss's possession. At least, that was on the surface of
things. To obscure any pattern it had to be a while between each run, in case
they triggered any alarms. If they triggered *any* alarm they had to go to
apeshit mode to hide the mission objective... wild destruction or similar. At
any rate.. long time between runs. So they took other jobs. In the first of
these other jobs, they went to Chicago. This was fairly early in the 2050's,
and they happened upon the outbreak of Bug City. They ended eventually up on
a tow boat headed out to sea witha young kid, Michael, who had an invisible
friend. They were escaping the city.. the kid magically healed one of the
team. The invisible friend was, of course, a wasp queen starting her new hive
away from Chicago. Michael & Friend wanted to get away quietly, and it was a
fairly nasty choice for the team wether to kill the kid, try to fight the
queen, or whatever. I pulled that one off brilliantly, with invaluable help
from the players. (One of them, Stone, went down and spoke with the queen.
Since then he, and most of that players' characters since, has had the sole
purpose of exterminating bugs. But he didn't dare do anything then. (He had
left his guns as a sign he was just there to talk, and he was very afraid
afterwards. Neither was he prepared to gun down a kid who hadn't even looked
at him crosswise, but had healed one of the party to boot.). What was further
planned was that a few names in a UB clinic they escaped with would tie into
a news agency, which they'd run against after the chiba job. There, they'd
find Uranus' boss has been in contact with the news guy (who wasa flesh form)
for a two week health spa.. Mmm right. Not human. Last run would then be a
big showdown.

Unfortunately they considered the chiba run too dangerous and delayed it, and
the gaming took a few months off... never got started again. Too bad.

Um, what was the purpose of that.. um. Campaign planning. Yes. As is fairly
obvious from the outline, the campaign is fairly linear - go there, do that,
find out this, and so on. It would not be nearly as involving WITHOUT that
planning, but then, it is the execution which matters. While I always had
outlines and contingencies planned, and nudged them in the right direction, I
(usually) don't push harder if they don't follow the nudges, but rather
change the plan.

And there's part of the problem. I eventually got very hard evidence the
players were oversensitive to nudges. I got it while I ran a series of moral
tests.. gave them more and more morally disgusting runs, just to see where
they drew the line. They didn't for a long time. Eventually - the job was
killing the families of some twenty cops, IIRC - one of them said, 'I'm not
doing this!'. The others started out doing it, but bugged out saying they
wouldn't RP it. A while later, as it was discussed, it beacame painfully
obvious they didn't want to say no to the job in case that'd ruin a long
plotline... well, sheesh, that ruined my day.

I can, of course, also give a long, woeful tale of the early mistakes, cases
of GM munchkinism (Or PC, for that matter) and so on, but noone would be
interested in that, would they?

Oh, you would?

Well, okay, in case you can learn from my mistakes.

First of all, scale. I always went for 'save the world' campaigns the first
couple of worlds. Big plots with big guns. A PC walking around with a minigun
was fun... once. (That was in SRI). We've been moving very steadily towards
smaller guns, and smaller campaigns. Easily illustrated, in the early days,
the run in Chicago would have been about killing shitloads of bugs. In
actuality, it was about getting out alive, and making a moral call or two,
and just how much they trust their employer. A few bugs died, too, of course.

A slight detail, this mailer has no editor whatsoever. What I write stays
written. So now, when I read that the paragraph starts about campaign scale
and ends on gun scale without saying what I want about campaign scale, I'm
lost. Unless I want to delete it all and start over.. which I don't. So.

Another mistake - don't make the goal of a campaign fighting an enemy they
cannot defeat. Once you hint about the only way it can end, they kinda loose
interest. ... actually, the advice is DON'T TELL THEM ABOUT IT, not DON'T
MAKE such a campaign. :)
(That was another fairly cool campaign idea.. don't remember it, though, only
that I kept thinking 'this is cool' - which infected the players, somewhat.).

That part - inspiration. As I mentioned above, I started out planning the
campaigns in advance. Big mistake. I made campaigns dependant upon a single
character. Big mistake. With a slight hint of accussation, I might say that I
planned campaigns on the
shit. I got a message I gotta log off or files will be damaged.

Too bad.
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:59:41 EST
In a message dated 98-03-02 18:50:14 EST, woneal@*******.NET writes:

> To that end an off the cuff idea. Adventures written with
"Beginners"
> "Intermediate" and "Advanced" players / GMs in mind. A Beginner
> adventure would be very structured and well thought out, basically
> providing everything a new GM needs. Intermediate would be less
> structured with more general info and some options for varying the plot
> line. Advanced would be nealy completely unstructured, a plot idea,
> general info (maps of the area involved, etc.), some notes on important
> NPCs, etc. Basic adventures can be run straight off the shelf with no
> real prep work by the GM, Intermediate will require the GM do a bit of
> preparing, Advanced will require the GM do plenty of prep work and have a
> solid knowledge of the game.
>
I am not sure I agree with this. The first two categories "Beginner" and
"Intermediate", maybe...but not the last...

There should almost never be a Last Category actually..."Good GM's" only need
inspiration and players to fill in the blanks with...

All IMHO of course...
-K
Message no. 11
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:42:58 -0500
> I really think that FASA should try to find more of a middle ground for
> their adventure frameworks. Give us more details, more structure, but not
> so much as to stifle us.

To me, the best supplements a company can give contain some people, some
places, maybe a run concept, or even full plot outline. Let me do the rest
myself. This is the reason the Seattle Sourcebook was so immensely cool.

One thing that would help though, would be sort of an indication of what
FASA might want to expand on in the future. For example, Dunkelzahn's will
is full of plot hooks, but it sucks to develop one of them into something
neat only to have an "official" version come out. It's no big deal, really,
but it would be nice to have spent the time on something you know was never
going to be touched. Or, at least already touched as much as it's gonna
get. I get the impression, for example, that FASA has pretty much said all
they are going to about the NAN, for example. It would be nice if they just
said this. Pipe dream, I know. Not practical.

Wordman
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:24:44 +0100
Ashlocke said on 17:52/ 2 Mar 98...

> To that end an off the cuff idea. Adventures written with
"Beginners"
> "Intermediate" and "Advanced" players / GMs in mind.

It might be only one step away from putting recommended character levels
on the back cover... :)

> A Beginner adventure would be very structured and well thought out,
> basically providing everything a new GM needs. Intermediate would be
> less structured with more general info and some options for varying the
> plot line.

A combination of these two is more or less what most SR adventures do,
IMO.

> Advanced would be nealy completely unstructured, a plot idea, general
> info (maps of the area involved, etc.), some notes on important NPCs,
> etc.

Sort of like Mob War? The idea doesn't really appeal to me; I prefer to
have an adventure that's really an adventure instead of a DIY book.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Now I've got to go away.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 13
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:29:50 -0600
On 03/03/98 11:24:44 you wrote:
>
>Ashlocke said on 17:52/ 2 Mar 98...
>
>> To that end an off the cuff idea. Adventures written with
"Beginners"
>> "Intermediate" and "Advanced" players / GMs in mind.
>
>It might be only one step away from putting recommended character levels
>on the back cover... :)
>
>> A Beginner adventure would be very structured and well thought out,
>> basically providing everything a new GM needs. Intermediate would be
>> less structured with more general info and some options for varying the
>> plot line.
>
>A combination of these two is more or less what most SR adventures do,
>IMO.
>
>> Advanced would be nealy completely unstructured, a plot idea, general
>> info (maps of the area involved, etc.), some notes on important NPCs,
>> etc.
>
>Sort of like Mob War? The idea doesn't really appeal to me; I prefer to
>have an adventure that's really an adventure instead of a DIY book.
>

Leave things the way FASA is already publishing; let the GM decide how linear or freeform,
how
detailed or general he wants to be with his players. GMing is as much art as science, and
the
only way to learn is to do.



rabiola@**.netcom.com

Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire Juhafa Vadic, Nethermancer
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome... Many speak ill of the path I walk...
Message no. 14
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:43:40 +0100
>> Advanced would be nealy completely unstructured, a plot idea, general
>> info (maps of the area involved, etc.), some notes on important NPCs,
>> etc.
>
>Sort of like Mob War? The idea doesn't really appeal to me; I prefer to
>have an adventure that's really an adventure instead of a DIY book.

It's just a matter of taste... I prefer this format because it provides
many adventures in one book. In complete adventures, I had (not always but
often) to change encounters to fit my world, my players... So, I don't
regret that those specifics have almost disepeared.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:37:46 +0100
William Gallas said on 12:43/ 3 Mar 98...

> It's just a matter of taste... I prefer this format because it provides
> many adventures in one book. In complete adventures, I had (not always but
> often) to change encounters to fit my world, my players... So, I don't
> regret that those specifics have almost disepeared.

I think there isn't a GM who hasn't changed parts of adventures (or even
the whole thing) to better suit the players' group. However, when I buy an
adventure it's because I want to have something I can run _without_ having
to spend a lot of time in advance designing it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Now I've got to go away.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:37:46 +0100
Tony Rabiola said on 4:29/ 3 Mar 98...

> >Sort of like Mob War? The idea doesn't really appeal to me; I prefer to
> >have an adventure that's really an adventure instead of a DIY book.
>
> Leave things the way FASA is already publishing; let the GM decide how
> linear or freeform, how detailed or general he wants to be with his
> players. GMing is as much art as science, and the only way to learn is
> to do.

Agreed with that, but that doesn't take away that I didn't like Mob War's
format one bit. It would have been much better, IMHO, to either:

A) write a sourcebook that gave the same info, rather than give a bunch
of source material and a few adventure ideas, or:

B) do an adventure like Harlequin, with interconnected adventures that
give the GM just about all that's needed to run them, without having to
improvise 2/3rd of the thing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Now I've got to go away.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 17
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:45:39 -0600
On 03/03/98 21:37:46 you wrote:
>
>Tony Rabiola said on 4:29/ 3 Mar 98...
>
>> >Sort of like Mob War? The idea doesn't really appeal to me; I prefer to
>> >have an adventure that's really an adventure instead of a DIY book.
>>
>> Leave things the way FASA is already publishing; let the GM decide how
>> linear or freeform, how detailed or general he wants to be with his
>> players. GMing is as much art as science, and the only way to learn is
>> to do.
>
>Agreed with that, but that doesn't take away that I didn't like Mob War's
>format one bit. It would have been much better, IMHO, to either:
>
>A) write a sourcebook that gave the same info, rather than give a bunch
>of source material and a few adventure ideas, or:
>
>B) do an adventure like Harlequin, with interconnected adventures that
>give the GM just about all that's needed to run them, without having to
>improvise 2/3rd of the thing.
>

I like both types for different situations. My group had a blast with Harley both times,
and I
have used many ideas from SS that I fleshed out on my own to suit my group of victims, er,
players...



rabiola@**.netcom.com

Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire Juhafa Vadic, Nethermancer
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome... Many speak ill of the path I walk...
Message no. 18
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:25:23 -0500
Gurth wrote:
> The idea doesn't really appeal to me; I prefer to
> have an adventure that's really an adventure instead of a DIY book.

Why's that?

Wordman
Message no. 19
From: Mike Buckalew <mike_buckalew@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Predator vs. Prey commentary
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:35:33 -0700
Wordman said:

>Gurth wrote:
>> The idea doesn't really appeal to me; I prefer to
>> have an adventure that's really an adventure instead of a DIY book.
>
>Why's that?

I'm not Gurth, but I'll explain why I prefer adventures that are ready to
run. I have a lot of demands on my time (wife, career, house, DSS
system, etc.) that prevent me from spending as much time as I would like
preparing adventures.

I really like the Shadowrun modules done prior to the Mob War track
system module. I believe they are some of the best in the industry. I
can read through a module in approx 3 hours, spend another hour or two
creating "combat sheets" for possible combatants, modifying stats as
necessary for my group's power level, and I'm ready to go. That 5 hours
of prep work will get me through 3-5 4 hour weekly sessions, which is
what it usually takes us to complete one of the adventures.

I enjoy reading books like Mob War and Bug City because they add to my
"Shadowrun Lore" and help me create atmosphere. In spite of the level of
detail of the ready to run adventures, I find myself ad libbing quite a
bit. Having this background helps that. But I feel that to do full
blown adventures based off of the Mob War type templates requires a level
of preparation I can't allocate time for.


Buck (Mike Buckalew)
Test Manager, FileMaker Pro
Email: buck@*********.com

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