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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:36:32 -0500
I was watching Ghost in the Shell again and the scene where Major
Kusanagi explains to (Togusa?) why she picked him to be transfered to
department and she explained that she wanted someone who wasn't tweaked
out like her and Batou gave me an idea about wired reflexes.
Has anyone considered that wired reflexes are a complex series of
programmed responses. I know that wired reflexes can make you react
before you can think, but has anyone thought of somehow to apply that
against a char with suped up reflexes if his/her opponent can predict
his/her reactions?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

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Message no. 2
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:22:06 +1000
At 07:36 PM 10/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I was watching Ghost in the Shell again and the scene where Major
>Kusanagi explains to (Togusa?) why she picked him to be transfered to
>department and she explained that she wanted someone who wasn't tweaked
>out like her and Batou gave me an idea about wired reflexes.
> Has anyone considered that wired reflexes are a complex series of
>programmed responses. I know that wired reflexes can make you react
>before you can think, but has anyone thought of somehow to apply that
>against a char with suped up reflexes if his/her opponent can predict
>his/her reactions?

I've handled Wired like this for a while now. I always assumed that the
reflex enhancement technology available in Shadowrun worked on this sort of
principle anyway. I've been chucking around some optional rules for my
home game, where cyber-based initiative enhancements can be calibrated (or
"chipped" if you wanna use Shadowrun slang I guess) to certain types of
action.
In essence, they run something like this: Cyber initiative enhancements
can be calibrated towards various skills (each skill must be a general
Active Skill). If you calibrate the system towards a specific skill it
drops the standard 10 phases between actions to 8 phases for actions that
use the calibrated skill and raise it to 11 phases for actions not using
the calibrated skill. The maximum number of calibrations possible on a
system is equal to the rating of the system, though calibrations are not
necessary. Calibrations take a base time of 10 minutes, use
Cybertechnology Skill against a Target Number of 4 plus the rating of the
system, and requiire a cybertech toolkit. When using multiple reflex
systems, always apply the worst possible effect to the character. Thus a
character with a Reaction Enhancer calibrated for Pistols only and a Wired
Reflexes system calibrated for Unarmed Combat only would use the 11 phases
between actions all the time - or at least until he calibrated both systems
to the same skill. Also, when using the reacting without thinking rules
presented in Cybertechnology, the character will always try and do
something that his systems are calibrated for. This can be very nasty if
the character only calibrates for pistols for example.


- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.asgard.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 3
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 04:10:08 +0200
And so it came to happen that D. Ghost wrote:
----------

> I was watching Ghost in the Shell again and the scene where Major
> Kusanagi explains to (Togusa?) why she picked him to be transfered to
> department and she explained that she wanted someone who wasn't tweaked
> out like her and Batou gave me an idea about wired reflexes.
> Has anyone considered that wired reflexes are a complex series of
> programmed responses. I know that wired reflexes can make you react
> before you can think, but has anyone thought of somehow to apply that
> against a char with suped up reflexes if his/her opponent can predict
> his/her reactions?

I for my part never thought upon them like that. Although I must admit it
sounds pretty nice. BUT, both Cops in Ghost in the shell seemed to me to be
composed out of more metal and polyester (maybe even fullerene;o)) then
meat. So theese "Cyborgs" act more or less predictable as their bodys are
computed to a certain point. Of course the "brain" that was left inside has
some controll over the body to give the fast maneuvers a special touch,
something personal. In SR it seems to me that the wired reflexes are in
fact not preprogrammed but are boosting the natural instincts and the
bodyfunctions under stressituations (aka adrenalin and maybe stimulation of
the brain parts that are home of our subconscience Alarmcenter by having
this part constantly on "RED ALERT") plus giving the nerveclusters for fast
and reflextriggered action a big bandwith (to borrough that
Decker-Slang;o)) for actions.

Thats IMO of course, but considering my above statements for oneself
possible, what if the Body adjustes to the "dayly" Adrenalin Surge? Does
than SOTA kick in? Or maybe something new, the goody ole Ares Wiremaster
seem not to kick in, say a Combatturn later it gets going? Or maybe the
Adrenalinproduction can't cope with the need for the wired reflexes and
lets the user down after a few hours of buisiness.
What with the poor slots who are allways "on wire" do they need special
treatments to get the Body away from the Adrenalin rush to function
properly?
Questions slightly of the original topic, but maybe worthwhile to talk
about.

For the Preprogrammed behaviour, I tend to say no, there is no such thing
in SR for the whole spectrum of reflexboosters and stuff. But than there
are the Cyberzombies, and they are a whole different part. That is if you
have the chance to see them more than once in your short life ;o)


--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 4
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:34:55 -0500
On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 04:10:08 +0200 Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
writes:
>And so it came to happen that D. Ghost wrote:
>----------
>> I was watching Ghost in the Shell again and the scene where Major
>> Kusanagi explains to (Togusa?) why she picked him to be transfered to
>> department and she explained that she wanted someone who wasn't
tweaked
>> out like her and Batou gave me an idea about wired reflexes.
>> Has anyone considered that wired reflexes are a complex series of
>> programmed responses. I know that wired reflexes can make you react
>> before you can think, but has anyone thought of somehow to apply that
>> against a char with suped up reflexes if his/her opponent can predict
>> his/her reactions?

>I for my part never thought upon them like that. Although I must admit
it
>sounds pretty nice. BUT, both Cops in Ghost in the shell seemed to me to
be
>composed out of more metal and polyester (maybe even fullerene;o)) then
>meat. So theese "Cyborgs" act more or less predictable as their bodys
are
>computed to a certain point. Of course the "brain" that was left inside
has
>some controll over the body to give the fast maneuvers a special touch,
>something personal. In SR it seems to me that the wired reflexes are in
>fact not preprogrammed but are boosting the natural instincts and the
>bodyfunctions under stressituations (aka adrenalin and maybe stimulation
of
>the brain parts that are home of our subconscience Alarmcenter by having
>this part constantly on "RED ALERT") plus giving the nerveclusters for
fast
>and reflextriggered action a big bandwith (to borrough that
>Decker-Slang;o)) for actions.

Are you kidding? Do you have any idea what kind of stress that'd put on
your body??? You'd die from a heart attack before the downsides from
MBW-4 would kick in ... No way. Wired Reflexes has to operate by
incresing the speed of neurotransmissions and dealing with more things in
the spinal column before they reach the brain. Hmmm... ya know, if you
want to get interesting, you give Wired Reflexes a Pilot Rating and have
different brands have different ratings (and cost appropriately), then
use the pilot rating to make reflexive decisions and to decide wheter a
situation requires a reflexive response or if can wait and be handled by
the brain ...

>Thats IMO of course, but considering my above statements for oneself
>possible, what if the Body adjustes to the "dayly" Adrenalin Surge? Does
>than SOTA kick in? Or maybe something new, the goody ole Ares Wiremaster
>seem not to kick in, say a Combatturn later it gets going? Or maybe the
>Adrenalinproduction can't cope with the need for the wired reflexes and
>lets the user down after a few hours of buisiness.
>What with the poor slots who are allways "on wire" do they need special
>treatments to get the Body away from the Adrenalin rush to
functionproperly?
>Questions slightly of the original topic, but maybe worthwhile to talk
>about.

Sorry, but IMO, the adrenaline based wired reflexes isn't feasable.

>For the Preprogrammed behaviour, I tend to say no, there is no such
thing
>in SR for the whole spectrum of reflexboosters and stuff. But than there
>are the Cyberzombies, and they are a whole different part. That is if
you
>have the chance to see them more than once in your short life ;o)

Why? You can program a tiny robot to act as if it had a 4+ Intelligence
so why can't you create cyberware that makes decisions for you? (Btw, if
you want to check out a peice of ware based on a similar concept but
geared towards different results, check out the Reflex Recorders in
Shadowtech.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:07:36 -0400
At 07:36 PM 10-4-98 -0500, you wrote:

> Has anyone considered that wired reflexes are a complex series of
>programmed responses. I know that wired reflexes can make you react
>before you can think, but has anyone thought of somehow to apply that
>against a char with suped up reflexes if his/her opponent can predict
>his/her reactions?
>
>D. Ghost

It's not unheard of in nature; many insects have such reflex reactions
built into the major nerve trunks of their limbs so they can strike and
react more quickly. However, this has always sounded more like Reflex
Recorders than Wired Reflexes to me.

As for predicting reactions, I can see that working, but with skillsofts
rather than 'flex wires. "Hmm, if I throw a feint just *so*... yup, just
as I thought, he's using a Fuchi Choy-Li-Fut 4. I wonder if he's got the
legsweep bugfix? <WHAM!> Nope, guess not." In GURPS Cyberpunk, they
actually had rules for buggy skillsofts, called zaps.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 6
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:10:22 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:34 PM 10/4/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>Sorry, but IMO, the adrenaline based wired reflexes isn't feasable.

Nevertheless, for the past three editions, wired reflexes have been
described as "implanted neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators."
:)

Because of this, you would think adrenaline would be at least partly
involved, don't you think? :)

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 7
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:16:37 -0500
On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:10:22 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>At 10:34 PM 10/4/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>Sorry, but IMO, the adrenaline based wired reflexes isn't feasable.

>Nevertheless, for the past three editions, wired reflexes have been
>described as "implanted neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators."
>:)
>
>Because of this, you would think adrenaline would be at least partly
>involved, don't you think? :)

Well... That's still different than what Steadfast was suggesting ... A
system that completely revolved around adrenline acting constantly would
kill you. For just a tempory adrenaline boost, there's the adrenaline
pump.... Now that I think of it, saying that Wires use adrenaline is
screwy. Wires provide a constant boost and, IMO, they can't do that
using adrenaline ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 8
From: Matthew Waddilove <matthew@*********.U-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:06:49 +0100
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>

>At 07:36 PM 10-4-98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Has anyone considered that wired reflexes are a complex series of
>>programmed responses. I know that wired reflexes can make you react
>>before you can think, but has anyone thought of somehow to apply that
>>against a char with suped up reflexes if his/her opponent can predict
>>his/her reactions?
>>
>>D. Ghost
<SNIP>
>
>As for predicting reactions, I can see that working, but with skillsofts
>rather than 'flex wires. "Hmm, if I throw a feint just *so*... yup, just
>as I thought, he's using a Fuchi Choy-Li-Fut 4. I wonder if he's got the
>legsweep bugfix? <WHAM!> Nope, guess not." In GURPS Cyberpunk, they
>actually had rules for buggy skillsofts, called zaps.


A quick and easy way to integrate this Idea into SR would be to use
CyberTech Theory(or B/R?) as a complementary skill for skill use vs an
opponent that is _KNOWN_ to have a specific type of ware.

and the best (probably) way to get to know the type of ware that the
opponent has well that's a straight CyberTech Theory(or B/R?) test vs
something(I can't think of an appropriate TN at the mo.)

I.E. Joe makes a CT Theory test to find that Fred is using the Fuchi
Choy-Li-Fut 4 skillsoft and thereafter gets to use the CT Theory as a
complementary skill for combat vs Fred.

A continuance of this idea is if Joe continues to fight on the suposition
that Fred is using his Fuchi Choy-Li-Fut 4 skillsoft and Fred has just
switched to his standard unarmed combat because Joe's tried this one to many
times is to use Joe's complementary skill roll as complementary to Fred.


just my 2NY

-Matthew Waddilove
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Predictability & Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:24:23 -0700
:Well... That's still different than what Steadfast was suggesting ... A
:system that completely revolved around adrenline acting constantly would
:kill you. For just a tempory adrenaline boost, there's the adrenaline
:pump.... Now that I think of it, saying that Wires use adrenaline is
:screwy. Wires provide a constant boost and, IMO, they can't do that
:using adrenaline ...


Adrenaline has more actions than just hyping up metablism and
sub-concious body proceses (heart and breathing)- it is actually also a
nuerotransmitter that stimulates memeory and learning, especially in
skeletal muscle control nerves. Quite likely, if you practiced combat
moves after taking an andrenaline shot, you would get quite quick at that
move- it would become a "learned reflex". Perhaps the is the function of
the wired reflex adrenaline stimulators is to encourage the learning of
such "relfex actions". Note that that would mean a new set of wired
reflexes was much less useful than an old one, and also that some of the
bonus should remain after removal (or if they are turned off with a
trigger), so its not all that good a theory, but its an interesting point
re adrenaline.

Mongoose

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