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From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:21:57 -0500

Message no. 1 Well, something just occurred to me. In the other thread about prices,
someone quoted the Denver Sourcebook (IIRC, it was Adam) as being that
the nuyen in 2055 is approximately 4 UCAS dollars, IIRC. But everyone
also says that one nuyen equals one 2000 US dollar. So therefore,
inflation has quadrupled the price of everything. Is that right? Maybe
an example is needed.
A pack of Marlboro Lights today, at the 7-11 down the street, cost me
3 US dollars, even. If I used the $1-1¥ conversion, that would mean
that in 2055, that same pack of Marlboro Lights would have cost me 12
UCAS dollars? Doesn't that seem a bit extreme to you? I really don't
think that inflation would increase that much. But that's just my
opinion, and it might be wrong.

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and
the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+
m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M P

From:	Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:42:57 -0500

Message no. 2 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:21:57 -0500 Strago <strago@***.com> writes:
> Well, something just occurred to me. In the other thread about prices,
> someone quoted the Denver Sourcebook (IIRC, it was Adam) as being
> that the nuyen in 2055 is approximately 4 UCAS dollars, IIRC. But
everyone
> also says that one nuyen equals one 2000 US dollar. So therefore,
> inflation has quadrupled the price of everything. Is that right?
>
Nope, that's not correct.
It's more like 8 dollars. $8.32 to be exact.

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From:	Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:09:52 -0800

Message no. 3 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:21:57 -0500 Strago <strago@***.com> writes:
> Well, something just occurred to me. In the other thread about prices,
> someone quoted the Denver Sourcebook (IIRC, it was Adam) as being
> that
> the nuyen in 2055 is approximately 4 UCAS dollars, IIRC. But everyone
> also says that one nuyen equals one 2000 US dollar. So therefore,
> inflation has quadrupled the price of everything. Is that right?
<SNIP>
> Doesn't that seem a bit extreme to you? I really don't
> think that inflation would increase that much. But that's just my
> opinion, and it might be wrong.

You're looking at this from the wrong POV. It's not that costs went up,
it's that the value of the almighty buck went down. Additionally, there
isn't necessarily a real link between the US dollar and the UCAS dollar.

Look at it like a business. The value of a nation's currency is like a
company's stock. When crap happens to a nation economically, the "stock"
plumets. Considering that the US&Canada/UCAS went through hell during
early 21rst century, a more appropriate question would be "only
quadrupled?" However, again, that is not necessarily a valid question
since while it may be nice to think that the UCAS took on the national
debt of Canada & the US, that is most likely not the case (The UCAS
wouldn't be able to handle the debt!). In all likelyhood the US &
Canadian dollars are mere pieces of paper with ink on them and the UCAS
is a seperate and distinct entity. (The same for the CAS dollar.)

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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From:	Bull bull@***********.com
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 04:29:09 -0500

Message no. 4 At 12:21 AM 3/21/00 -0500, you wrote:

[SNIP]

OK, basically it;s simply a matter of convenience, for the most part.
Deflation comes into effect for the US/UCAS doller, and a bunch of other
factors. But simply put, don;t sweat it :]

A 3 Doller pack of cigs today will costa round 3 Nuyen in SR. If you were
buying it in UCAS Dollers, it's be 12-15 UCAS dollers. Also, I think the
rate was, at least at one point (And according to Neo-A's guide to Real
Life, I think) a 5 to 1 ratio, not 4 to 1 :]

The "SR costs for everyday items in Nuyen is equal to Modern Day costs in
US Dollers" is just a tool to simplify everyday items so FASA doesn;t need
to make a catalog of such crap (And rightly so... I hate to shell out 15+
bucks for that, and I can;t see it selling all that well). YOu want taht
sort of list, get a catalog :]

Bull

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:25:05 +0100

Message no. 5 According to Strago, at 0:21 on 21 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> A pack of Marlboro Lights today, at the 7-11 down the street, cost me
> 3 US dollars, even. If I used the $1-1¥ conversion, that would mean
> that in 2055, that same pack of Marlboro Lights would have cost me 12
> UCAS dollars?

$15, to be precise. Or $14.25 in the CAS.

> Doesn't that seem a bit extreme to you? I really don't think that
> inflation would increase that much. But that's just my opinion, and it
> might be wrong.

Prices 60 years ago were MUCH lower than they are today; not sure if it's
5 times lower, but I can believe that by 2050 or 2060, a UCAS dollar buys
only one-fifth of what a US dollar buys today. Didn't the stock market
collapse at some point in SR's timeline? That could be a serious blow to
currency values, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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From:	Dave Mowbray dave_mowbray@*****.com
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:19:51 -0500

Message no. 6 Strago wrote:

> Well, something just occurred to me. In the other thread about prices,
> someone quoted the Denver Sourcebook (IIRC, it was Adam) as being that
> the nuyen in 2055 is approximately 4 UCAS dollars, IIRC. But everyone
> also says that one nuyen equals one 2000 US dollar. So therefore,
> inflation has quadrupled the price of everything. Is that right? Maybe
> an example is needed.
> A pack of Marlboro Lights today, at the 7-11 down the street, cost me
> 3 US dollars, even. If I used the $1-1¥ conversion, that would mean
> that in 2055, that same pack of Marlboro Lights would have cost me 12
> UCAS dollars? Doesn't that seem a bit extreme to you? I really don't
> think that inflation would increase that much. But that's just my
> opinion, and it might be wrong.
>
> --
> --Strago
>

Think about what common things used to cost 60 years ago... you could get a
loaf of bread for 25 cents... now that same wonder bread costs about $2.
Also look at movies, they paid 5 cents... we're paying $7.50... talk about
inflation... It also depends on how hard it is to come by the product you're
purchasing... most of the tobacco farming in what is now the US would be
part of somewhere else now wouldn't it?
-Dave

From:	Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:31:28 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 7 Strago wrote:
> the nuyen in 2055 is approximately 4 UCAS dollars, IIRC. But everyone
> also says that one nuyen equals one 2000 US dollar. So therefore,
> inflation has quadrupled the price of everything. Is that right? Maybe
> an example is needed.
> A pack of Marlboro Lights today, 3 US dollars, ...
> that in 2055, that same pack of Marlboro Lights would have cost me 12
> UCAS dollars? Doesn't that seem a bit extreme to you? I really don't
> think that inflation would increase that much. But that's just my
> opinion, and it might be wrong.

It seems strange now b/c inflation is officially under control (the reality
is a bit different, but that's way OT).

Using the old formulas, in 60 years you'd expect prices to at least triple.
The dollar price increase is not a real dollar value increase.

Given that the US fought a major war, lost 50% of its land, split into 3
entities, and with the joining up with Canada had to assume a joint debt,
there's a lot to put a drag on the currency.

If the new UCAS defaulted on the US and Canadian debt, the dollar would
utterly collapse and could likely start a worldwide depression.

The Eurowars likely hampered trade with Europe, putting a kink into the
US/UCAS economy.

With all that upheaval, foreign funds would have left. One of the major
reasons we have such low interest rates is that Japan and China pump
hundreds of billions of dollars into Treasuries. Not to mention money
flies here every time there's a revolution or major riots or a currency
devaluation somewhere else. For a while there, it looked like there wasn't
gonna be a United States and with the budget pressures of fighting a war
against the SAIM, funds to pay off Tbills could look scarce so more money
gets pulled out. I figure the early Awakening was a rather inflationary
stretch for most economies.

I'm guessing the crash of 29 also made easy credit a thing of the past, so
prices are more reflective of their real cash value and not some easy-spending
free-credit-cards-for-everyone prices we have today. I don't think prices
have increased any since the game started, lending evidence that inflation
is under control, a sign of the world moving to a real hard-currency standard.

The only country to get stronger during all this: Japan. Right now, the yen
is massively undervalued. The rise of corporate power seemed to benefit
the Japanacorps more than anyone, making their economy stronger. All those
dollars, euros, rubles, yuan, etc were flowing into Japan, giving the yen
a nice boost. With the stabilization of the Japanese economy, the gov't
wouldn't need to manipulate the yen like it does now (current interest rates
are less then 1%) and with an increased yield, money would start flowing
there. All this leads to a stronger Japanese economy and a stronger yen.
Eventually the int'l standard shifts to the (nu)yen, much like it shifted from
the pound to the dollar after the market crashes of the late 1920's.

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:25:43 -0800 (PST)

Message no. 8 > Well, something just occurred to me. In the other
thread about prices, someone quoted the Denver
Sourcebook (IIRC, it was Adam) as being that the nuyen
in 2055 is approximately 4 UCAS dollars, IIRC. But
everyone also says that one nuyen equals one 2000 US
dollar. So therefore, inflation has quadrupled the
price of everything. Is that right? Maybe an example
is needed. A pack of Marlboro Lights today, at the
7-11 down the street, cost me 3 US dollars, even. If I
used the $1-1¥ conversion, that would mean that in
2055, that same pack of Marlboro Lights would have
cost me 12 UCAS dollars? Doesn't that seem a bit
extreme to you? I really don't think that inflation
would increase that much. But that's just my opinion,
and it might be wrong.
> --Strago

Strago, think about what you're saying, buddy.

It's not inflation (although that's likely part of it)
- it's the strength of the US/UCAS dollar. Today, it's
one of the most powerful currencies in the world. In
2050/60, the US has lost HUGE amounts of territories
and natural resources and the MEGACORPS are the
economic powerhouses, not the countries (except for
Japan, apparently), so the value of the dollar has
declined sharply.

That's why you want to get paid in nuyen. :)

Okay, that's a simplification - I'm no
eco...economy...ecologist...errr...whatsie - but
that's the cause behind it. I don't know if I'd agree
with FASA that the UCAS dollar would take SUCH a dive,
but that's just me. Anyway, it's posible that the
nuyen is TWICE as strong in 2050/60 (as an example) as
the US dollar is today, so the UCAS is really only 2.5
times weaker than today's US dollar and inflation
accounts for the rest of the hike that keeps the $1/1
nuyen conversion rate in line. Just as an example.

*"Oooo...little green men! Little green men!!!

"I have GOT to stop answering mail while coughing my
lungs out and reading White Dwarf..."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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From:	Cortland Guse cortland.guse@**.sympatico.ca
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:46:27 -0600

Message no. 9 Well .... it's 7.50 Cdn. for a pack of smokes in canada now :)

Change is inevitable..........except from vending machines.

From:	Wolfstar wolfstar@********.net
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:05:21 -0500

Message no. 10 ----------
> From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: Prices and dollars
> Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 5:25 PM
>
> It's not inflation (although that's likely part of it)
> - it's the strength of the US/UCAS dollar. Today, it's
> one of the most powerful currencies in the world. In
> 2050/60, the US has lost HUGE amounts of territories
> and natural resources and the MEGACORPS are the
> economic powerhouses, not the countries (except for
> Japan, apparently), so the value of the dollar has
> declined sharply.
>
> That's why you want to get paid in nuyen. :)

<Snip!!!>
Just as a note here, it's a definite fact of both. Half inflation, half
devaluation. Realize, too, (This is more for Strago) that a mere 15 or so years
ago, that $3 pack of smokes - and I pay $3.55 or more here in Massachusetts -
cost less than a dollar. Ten years before that, it was a mere fraction of a
dollar. And it's much more likely that you would be paying 6 nuyen, or $30
UCAS, for a pack of smokes in 206x simply because 90% of the price increases
over the past 5 years have been due to taxes or government lawsuits(the
fashionably legal way to perform double-taxation). 60 years is a LONG TIME in
the financial market. And when a government falls from the inside, its currency
goes to hell in a handbasket.

From:	Ron Clark rclark@****.net
Subject:	Prices and dollars
Date:	Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:41:10 -0600

Message no. 11 At 02:05 PM 3/26/00 -0500, you wrote:
>----------
>> From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>> To: shadowrn@*********.com
>> Subject: Re: Prices and dollars
>> Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 5:25 PM
>>
>> It's not inflation (although that's likely part of it)
>> - it's the strength of the US/UCAS dollar. Today, it's
>> one of the most powerful currencies in the world. In
>> 2050/60, the US has lost HUGE amounts of territories
>> and natural resources and the MEGACORPS are the
>> economic powerhouses, not the countries (except for
>> Japan, apparently), so the value of the dollar has
>> declined sharply.
>>
>> That's why you want to get paid in nuyen. :)
>
><Snip!!!>
>Just as a note here, it's a definite fact of both. Half inflation, half
>devaluation. Realize, too, (This is more for Strago) that a mere 15 or so
years
>ago, that $3 pack of smokes - and I pay $3.55 or more here in Massachusetts -
>cost less than a dollar. Ten years before that, it was a mere fraction of a
>dollar. And it's much more likely that you would be paying 6 nuyen, or $30
>UCAS, for a pack of smokes in 206x simply because 90% of the price increases
>over the past 5 years have been due to taxes or government lawsuits(the
>fashionably legal way to perform double-taxation). 60 years is a LONG TIME in
>the financial market. And when a government falls from the inside, its
currency
>goes to hell in a handbasket.
>

Not only would I say taxes and any other considerations, but also consider
civilization advancement. By this I mean look at how much land has been
changed from agricultural use to residental/commercial/industrial use. I
live in a somewhat agricultrual area and have seen property after property
after property during the last 25 years go from farm to housing
complex/Wal-Mart/parking lot. So you could also be looking at supply (or
lack there of) as well as inflation and anything else you want to say.

Ron.

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