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Message no. 1
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:45:05 -0500
>>Never seen it. What, pray tell, is so bad about it?
>
>Bunch of NPCs. Problem was, most of them were way too wimpy to be
"Prime
>Runners."

I guess it depends on definitions of "wimpy" vary from person to person.
I"ve been averse to putting Dancer's stats up because, having read EDGE
RUNNERS and seeing the stats for characters in there, I'm a little
embarrassed about him now.

The campaigns I run now, and the campaigns I've been playing in for the
past 7 years or so, "racial maximum" meant "racial maximum." Stats
unaided by cyber or bio didn't go past that racial max. Skills in
double-digits were unheard of; a Firearms skill of 9 was devastating.
Hell, any skill of 9 was devastating. Then I pop in here and see level
9 skills being referred to as "rookie" level skills.

Don't know if it's just my gaming style, or if I'm just a little jaded
after all these years I've been playing, or what. But either way, I'm
kinda wondering about things now vis a vis my campaign and my gaming in
general.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 2
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:55:20 -0400
At 01:45 PM 9/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Never seen it. What, pray tell, is so bad about it?
>>
>>Bunch of NPCs. Problem was, most of them were way too wimpy to be
>>"Prime
>>Runners."

There's a perspective I don't share. The NPCs in Prime Runners, not only
had rather sizable stats, but also were better connected than your average
fixer. They made great contacts for higher level characters (I guess
depending on the scale of your game) but I've never pitted "wimpy" PC
against Greater Dragons or NPCs that owned stock in the Zurick Orbital like
a clean-faced corp player in there who's name escapes me at the moment.

Only wimpy if you're someone who likes to play Rifts (ack!)

noysh the spoonë bard [BABY 909]
shaung@**********.net
>jack of all trades, master of none.
Message no. 3
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:12:39 -0400
Patrick Goodman wrote:
>
> The campaigns I run now, and the campaigns I've been playing in for the
> past 7 years or so, "racial maximum" meant "racial maximum."
Stats
> unaided by cyber or bio didn't go past that racial max. Skills in
> double-digits were unheard of; a Firearms skill of 9 was devastating.
> Hell, any skill of 9 was devastating. Then I pop in here and see level
> 9 skills being referred to as "rookie" level skills.

So you're embarrassed because you're NOT a munchkin? Pshaw.


> Don't know if it's just my gaming style, or if I'm just a little jaded
> after all these years I've been playing, or what. But either way, I'm
> kinda wondering about things now vis a vis my campaign and my gaming in
> general.

If you're having fun, then what's there to wonder about? I'd say you've
got it right more than the Edge Runners extremists. (Which is why I
referred to NERPS Foundations instead, when I talked about alternatives to
Prime Runners.)

I just got done running a high-power campaign, and I'm switching to a
low-power one (the _Nowhere Man_ idea I described previously) because I --
much more than the players -- was starting to feel like events were
getting SO big that the plotline was spinning out of my control.
_Harlequin's Back_ as a stepping-stone to a larger and more dangerous
conspiracy didn't help; neither did hooking them into the Draco
Foundation, nor letting them get hold of Excalibur. When Lofwyr showed up
as a supporting character to fix a problem, I decided enough was enough.
>8-> I saw the error of my ways and resolved to draw things in closer to street
level. (Ironically enough, the campaign ended very shortly thereafter when they were
pulled over on the highway by Lone Star and misused some Influence spells. They survived
the ensuing bullets-and-helicopters battle, but these characters who had saved the world
once or twice decided that a cop-killing record was too much for them, and split up and
retired.)

The next campaign, where the characters aren't used to being SINless and
won't even know how to buy a gun at the start (much less fire one), should
be refreshing indeed.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:24:42 -0400
At 01:45 PM 9/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Never seen it. What, pray tell, is so bad about it?
>>
>>Bunch of NPCs. Problem was, most of them were way too wimpy to be
>"Prime
>>Runners."
>
>I guess it depends on definitions of "wimpy" vary from person to person.

True.

>I"ve been averse to putting Dancer's stats up because, having read EDGE
>RUNNERS and seeing the stats for characters in there, I'm a little
>embarrassed about him now.

Really? Well, the concept was that these characters were supposed to be
the cutting edge, the really bad-ass PCs and NPCs. They were supposed to
be better than the average runner. I didn't find that to be the case in
Prime Runners.

Now, as you know Patrick, I was in a different place then anyway. But I
still hold that they Prime Runners in the book weren't all the prime.

>The campaigns I run now, and the campaigns I've been playing in for the
>past 7 years or so, "racial maximum" meant "racial maximum."
Stats
>unaided by cyber or bio didn't go past that racial max. Skills in

SR2 allowed the current SR3 rule on this as an optional rule.

>double-digits were unheard of; a Firearms skill of 9 was devastating.
>Hell, any skill of 9 was devastating. Then I pop in here and see level
>9 skills being referred to as "rookie" level skills.

Like I said Patrick, that was a specific person, not "rookie." I think
even in the nastiest power games, 9 is still an impressive skill.

>Don't know if it's just my gaming style, or if I'm just a little jaded
>after all these years I've been playing, or what. But either way, I'm
>kinda wondering about things now vis a vis my campaign and my gaming in
>general.

Ah, don't worry about it. Keep on doing your thing.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 5
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:09:12 -0500
>>I guess it depends on definitions of "wimpy" vary from person to
person.

"I guess it depends on definitions of 'wimpy,' which vary from person to
person." Pay attention to grammar, Patrick, you bonehead.

>>I"ve been averse to putting Dancer's stats up because, having read
>>EDGE RUNNERS and seeing the stats for characters in there, I'm a
>>little embarrassed about him now.
>
>Really?

Yeppers.

>Well, the concept was that these characters were supposed to be the
>cutting edge, the really bad-ass PCs and NPCs. They were supposed to
>be better than the average runner. I didn't find that to be the case
>in Prime Runners.

That's how I've always seen and played Dancer, and since he retired to
NPC status that's how I've portrayed him. He's a legend of sorts in the
Texas runner community.

Then I looked at characters like Whistler and Archangel and some of the
others in ER, and I'm wondering about my interpretations and such.
Could be perception, could be me doing this for way too long.

>Now, as you know Patrick, I was in a different place then anyway.

Oh, I was too, Erik. I've been gamin in one form or another since I was
8, back when Tactical Simulation Rules was the name of the game and not
the company. (I still wish I knew what happened to my old copy of
Chainmail....)

>But I still hold that they Prime Runners in the book weren't
>all the prime.

I'd have to see it to comment on it, but I'm willing to bet that it's a
matter of perspective all the way.

>>The campaigns I run now, and the campaigns I've been playing in for
the
>>past 7 years or so, "racial maximum" meant "racial maximum."
Stats
>>unaided by cyber or bio didn't go past that racial max. Skills in
>
>SR2 allowed the current SR3 rule on this as an optional rule.

I know, we just never did anything with it.

>>Hell, any skill of 9 was devastating. Then I pop in here and see
level
>>9 skills being referred to as "rookie" level skills.
>
>Like I said Patrick, that was a specific person, not "rookie."

I'm not thinking that it was aimed at me, specifically, but the
sentiment Keith shared in that little aside kind of bothered me.
Perhaps I'm just overly sensitive, perhaps I'm paranoid, maybe I'm just
tired after a bit more than a year's worth of personal problems that
have kept me from gaming until just recently. <shrug>

>I think
>even in the nastiest power games, 9 is still an impressive skill.

I'd like to think so. <g>

>>But either way, I'm kinda wondering about things now vis a vis
>>my campaign and my gaming in general.
>
>Ah, don't worry about it. Keep on doing your thing.

I plan on it. I just have this insecurity complex that crops up from
time to time, and I vent about it occasionally.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 17:12:44 -0400
At 03:12 PM 9/3/98 -0400, you wrote:

>If you're having fun, then what's there to wonder about? I'd say you've
>got it right more than the Edge Runners extremists. (Which is why I
>referred to NERPS Foundations instead, when I talked about alternatives to
>Prime Runners.)

Considering I'm the man behind Edge Runners, I could take that as an insult.

But the fact of the matter hasn't changed; they were *supposed* to be
extreme. Some were a bit more than others, and as editor I did tone things
down some in several cases. But the concept *I*thought* of Prime Runners
was that these were supposed to be major bad-asses, not just
run-of-the-mill NPCs. And at the time, many peole agreed with me in that
general assesment and the thought that Prime Runners failed to deliver on
that. The Edge Runners characters weren't supposed to be examples of
average or normal PCs/NPCs, they were supposed to be major bad-asses.

And considering some of the stuff I see on websites and hear about here,
they are for the large part suprisingly tame; no shapeshifters, no living
dead, no highlanders...some of the PCs are still in use over on ShadowTK
(Irish being most notable).

So I really can't take it as an insult since it was supposed to be extreme
PCs/NPCs.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 7
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 17:44:57 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> Considering I'm the man behind Edge Runners, I could take that as an insult.

Since it wasn't intended as one, I'm glad you didn't.


> But the fact of the matter hasn't changed; they were *supposed* to be
> extreme. Some were a bit more than others, and as editor I did tone things
> down some in several cases. But the concept *I*thought* of Prime Runners
> was that these were supposed to be major bad-asses, not just
> run-of-the-mill NPCs.

Was that the FASA publicity prior to the book? If so, that's odd, because
I don't understand how you could get that impression from the book itself
at all. Most of the NPC's in it aren't even runners; they're journalists,
or cameramen, or sports agents, or bartenders. I don't believe a
well-developed tabloid reporter is required to be a "bad-ass" in a combat
situation, or have exceptional stats.

And recall that I said that *my* use of Prime Runners was as a source of
miscellaneous NPC ideas. The vast majority of NPC's the runners come
across are going to be statistically powerful; they need to interact with
bartenders, and journalists, et cetera as well.

*THAT'S* why I said NERPS Foundations is a better sourcebook for *my*
purpose than NERPS Edge Runners. If I need a bad-ass opponent, I'll go to
Edge Runners if I don't make one up myself. Or *maybe* one or two folks
from Prime Runners. OTOH, if I need an interesting person that they're
not supposed to fight, which is most people, I'll most likely make one up,
but if I don't I'll go to NERPS Foundations or Prime Runners.

Does that make sense now?


> So I really can't take it as an insult since it was supposed to be extreme
> PCs/NPCs.

Right. We understand each other.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:49:54 -0400
At 05:44 PM 9/3/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Was that the FASA publicity prior to the book? If so, that's odd, because
>I don't understand how you could get that impression from the book itself
>at all. Most of the NPC's in it aren't even runners; they're journalists,
>or cameramen, or sports agents, or bartenders. I don't believe a
>well-developed tabloid reporter is required to be a "bad-ass" in a combat
>situation, or have exceptional stats.

Re-read the back cover of the book. It heavily implies that these are the
creme de la creme of the shadows, as does the Shadowland introduction in
the beginning.

One bartender, one reporter, one camera man, one powerful sports agent, one
football player, one chess player. A few detective types. The rest are
more shadowrun-y types. Except maybe for Jonty Geldenhuys (or however you
spell his name, the South African bounty hunter dude) who I may decide to
chase after my player's PCs and Rhonabwy, I have yet to find a use for any
of the NPCs. It's just never happened.

>*THAT'S* why I said NERPS Foundations is a better sourcebook for *my*
>purpose than NERPS Edge Runners. If I need a bad-ass opponent, I'll go to
>Edge Runners if I don't make one up myself. Or *maybe* one or two folks

Not all of them are that bad-ass. Johnny Rotten the fixer for example.
Very low key actually, combat-wise. And he's a blast to play; my players
love Johnny Rotten. And the memory-courrier guy, the Johnny Memnonic
clone, another non-combat sort. And I use the current incarnation of the
Whistler mostly as an NPC-Mr. Johnson sort; they aren't supposed to fight
him. Hell, Freddy Frypp wasn't supposed to fight much either, he's just
supposed to be a powerful but local fixer.

So whatever floats your boat...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 9
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:27:50 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-03 15:10:38 EDT, you write:

> ...and resolved to draw things in closer to street
> level.

I know what that's like, but if you play regularly over a number of years,
characters can get fairly high-powered (Skill Ratings of 8 or 9 even). I've
got that happening in the game I GM for. I know it will take several sessions,
but these characters WILL retire eventually. I wouldn't want to kill any of
them (consequently, I fudge a few die-rolls now and then) because they've been
played for several years and the players have grown attached to them, as have
I.

Regardless (and this is speaking from playing experience) PC's with enormous
bankrolls, heavy Foci, enough weapons (some protoypical even) to choke a
Behemoth, permanent High (shooting for Luxury) Lifestyles, and full Beta-
grade cyberware can send plotlines spinning out of control. Money and material
goods are no longer become an Incentive, so you end up trying to appeal to the
characters integrity, morality, and sense of justice for an adventure. Or you
can force them into a situation where they must take action, though I hesitate
to do that, because it usually REALLY PISSES ME OFF when it's done to me (it's
happening in the game I play in right now, as a matter of fact).

Still, they will have to retire soon, because it does become harder and harder
to make NPC's that are Equal or Superior to the group, as well as design
adventures that would interest them (If you've ever heard one of your players
say "Why bother? I don't need the money." you know what I'm talking about).
Their abilities and skill levels tend to send things out of control (though I
am considering framing them for a murder, having Lone Star freeze their assets
pending investigations [all the characters have *at least* one good SIN], and
making them run the border with only the clothes on their backs)

But, I digress from my maniacal ravings....

Mgkelly
Message no. 10
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:35:10 -0400
On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

->At 05:44 PM 9/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
->
<yappa snip>
->Not all of them are that bad-ass. Johnny Rotten the fixer for example.
->Very low key actually, combat-wise. And he's a blast to play; my players
->love Johnny Rotten. And the memory-courrier guy, the Johnny Memnonic
->clone, another non-combat sort. And I use the current incarnation of the
->Whistler mostly as an NPC-Mr. Johnson sort; they aren't supposed to fight
->him. Hell, Freddy Frypp wasn't supposed to fight much either, he's just
->supposed to be a powerful but local fixer.

<Brainfood>
Hmmm.... makes me wonder, if these are supposed to be the "Prime
Runners"... maybe our runners are a bit TOO combat oriented? Maybe we put
too much emphasis on combat and not enough on the "running"?
</Brainfood>
<munch, munch, munch, munch..... Got Milk?>

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:01:43 -0500
----------
> From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
> <munch, munch, munch, munch..... Got Milk?>

Since K isn't here to post it, I figure I'll post his response to the Got
Milk question...

----not mine----

Oh geesh, the new "Got Milk" commercial of the SR Era....said CtH Troll is
all set up in bed, has his Oreos, goes to eat a few, then reaches for a
drink, which he forgot to fill, mad dash at Wired speeds (kind of blur him
like the flash) to the frig, which is empty...trashes frig (just to show
off those super-cyber-5000 mods), quickly notes his MAJOR gear is all out
to the shop to be "fixed". Grabs slippers, Oreo bag and a couple of said
books.

Makes a terrifying assault while in boxers, bathrobe and slippers upon a
Dairy somewhere nearby (at -those speeds, does distance matter :). All
sorts of neat effects, the books are now throwing 'stars', which don't get
damaged by some unknown force, slippers enable silence, and a single
rigger guard sees this in one of his cameras and suffer's Dump Shock from
the sheer image ;P

Later, back at the apartment, beneath his sheets, with his NIGHTglow(tm)
stick going, and a lone cow in a "walk in refrigerator" nearby secured
away ... the troll with a tankard-size glass of frosty milk, looks at the
camera ... smiles one of those "Neat Trollishly Toothie Smiles(tm)" gives
a thumbs up and agrees with the disembodied voice who asks the lone
question...

Got Milk???

----mine again----

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"One thing's for sure: It'll be years before Chelsea is willing to give a
guy a blow job."
Rick Leahy, Carpenter
Message no. 12
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:21:31 -0400
On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Machine-gun Kelly wrote:

->I know what that's like, but if you play regularly over a number of years,
->characters can get fairly high-powered (Skill Ratings of 8 or 9 even). I've
->got that happening in the game I GM for. I know it will take several sessions,
->but these characters WILL retire eventually. I wouldn't want to kill any of
->them (consequently, I fudge a few die-rolls now and then) because they've been
->played for several years and the players have grown attached to them, as have
->I.

If you ever had EvilGM (tm) status, I feel it might be revoked by
your statements in that paragraph.

->Regardless (and this is speaking from playing experience) PC's with enormous
->bankrolls, heavy Foci, enough weapons (some protoypical even) to choke a
->Behemoth, permanent High (shooting for Luxury) Lifestyles, and full Beta-
->grade cyberware can send plotlines spinning out of control. Money and material
->goods are no longer become an Incentive, so you end up trying to appeal to the
->characters integrity, morality, and sense of justice for an adventure. Or you
->can force them into a situation where they must take action, though I hesitate
->to do that, because it usually REALLY PISSES ME OFF when it's done to me (it's
->happening in the game I play in right now, as a matter of fact).

Hmmm.... I warn most new GMs (when I'm playing) that my primary
weakness is those NPCs my PC becomes attached to. I generally make fairly
"bomb-proof" or "extremely sruvivable" characters.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 13:56:48 -0700
><Brainfood>
> Hmmm.... makes me wonder, if these are supposed to be the "Prime
>Runners"... maybe our runners are a bit TOO combat oriented? Maybe we
put
>too much emphasis on combat and not enough on the "running"?
></Brainfood>
> <munch, munch, munch, munch..... Got Milk?>


Many of them did not have social or other skills that were all that
impressive either; they were powerful because of "who they were" in
politics, society, the underworld, whatever. Unless the GM decides you
get put in a position of influence, you, as a PC, would never get THAT
kind of power. Given some money, you could hire minions, start a drug
ring, whatever, but that's not "running" per se.

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prime Runners (was Whats the deal with the new adept?)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 21:38:36 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-04 10:13:58 EDT, you write:

> I know it will take several sessions,
> ->but these characters WILL retire eventually. I wouldn't want to kill any
> of
> ->them (consequently, I fudge a few die-rolls now and then) because they've
> been
> ->played for several years and the players have grown attached to them, as
> have
> ->I.
>
> If you ever had EvilGM (tm) status, I feel it might be revoked by
> your statements in that paragraph.

I'm sure my players have given the EvilGM (tm) status to me. By the way, I
said I wouldn't *want* to kill them. Doesn't mean I won't ;] They know better
than to get stupid. They used to and survived by sheer luck and my drek-eating
die rolls (Daddyblues will attest to this fact ;] ) A couple of the characters
came close to buying it a number of times because their players did dumb shit,
which I have little tolerance for (unless it's funny).

Surely you didn't think I meant 'retire' strictly as meaning 'going into the
light' ;]

Personally, I'm thinking prison for one of them ;]

Mgkelly

Further Reading

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Thwap!