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Message no. 1
From: Mamoulian <shine@************.NET>
Subject: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:06:13 -0700
I have some questions regarding incarseration in Shadowrun:

Who runs it?

Where are the major prisons?

Are there still witness protection programs? Who runs them?

Are there still probation\parole officers for offenders?

Any answers, suggestions, or links to info would be appreciated.

Mamo
Message no. 2
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:39:26 -0500
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:06:13 -0700 Mamoulian <shine@************.NET>
writes:
>I have some questions regarding incarseration in Shadowrun:
>
>Who runs it?


I would expect there to be both governmental as well as corporate
prisons, probably with the corporate prisons run to make some sort of
profit or at least off-set the costs associated with running the prison.
Assuming they don't just execute criminals, rather than imprison them:P


>Where are the major prisons?


I'd guess many are still where they are know, taking into account the
fact many probably changed hands with all the political upheaval....


>Are there still witness protection programs? Who runs them?


I'd guess again that such things would be run by both corporations and
governments...


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 3
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@********.ML.ORG>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 05:12:23 +0000
<conjecture disclaimer="I don't own the Lone Star book, or for that matter
most of the books, I'm just making this up">

> Subject: Prison in Shadowrun
>
> Who runs it?
In my Seattle, the local jails are run by Lone Star. The "big" prisons are
managed by UCAS. I don't have one in Seattle.

> Where are the major prisons?
Scattered throughout the UCAS. As I'm close to the Marion, IL prison IRL,
that's the big one in my game. (The one in Colorado is basically a moot
point; unless it's near the neutral city of Denver, it's probably in NAN
territory by now.)

> Are there still witness protection programs? Who runs them?
You betcha. Same basic setup as above - the small local ones are managed by
the locals, the big ones by UCAS.

> Are there still probation\parole officers for offenders?
See above.

</conjecture>

Neat idea: has anyone ever run a "prisoner transport" adventure? (Heck, has
anyone seen "Con Air?" :) Which side were the players on, the cops or the
robbers?

Yep, it's the requisite first post to the list, please don't flame me right
away :)

dave

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
"Even if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish Him"
-- Sascha Konietzko (KMFDM), Stray Bullet

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)
Message no. 4
From: Hedley <hedley@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:03:48 -0600
Don't forget. Prisons are a great place to find "test subjects" for corp
research...

Hedley
Message no. 5
From: Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:20:57 +0100
At 19:39 1997-12-08 -0500, you wrote:
>I would expect there to be both governmental as well as corporate
>prisons, probably with the corporate prisons run to make some sort of
>profit or at least off-set the costs associated with running the prison.
>Assuming they don't just execute criminals, rather than imprison them:P

You just can't execute _every_ perp outright, even if you're a corp. In
that case every single criminal would rather go down fighting than be
caught, and he could take hostages (i.e. "valuable corporate personnel",
not "innocent civilians". corps don't give a frag about "innocent
civilians" unless rescuing them improves public relations) with him in
death. There is no way in hell he could be persuaded to come out quietly if
he knew he'd be executed on the spot.

Then again, if the crimes he committed are serious enough, he might know
he'll get the death penalty after all, and just blast away...

Just my .02 nuyen

/FL
Message no. 6
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:58:28 +0100
At 09-Dez-97 wrote Hedley:

>Don't forget. Prisons are a great place to find "test subjects" for corp
>research...

I know....<sigh>

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:58:26 -0500
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:20:57 +0100 Fredrik Lindblom
<fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE> writes:

<<You just can't execute _every_ perp outright, even if you're a corp. In
that case every single criminal would rather go down fighting than be
caught, and he could take hostages (i.e. "valuable corporate personnel",
not "innocent civilians". corps don't give a frag about "innocent
civilians" unless rescuing them improves public relations) with him in
death. There is no way in hell he could be persuaded to come out quietly
if he knew he'd be executed on the spot.>>


I doubt they'd execute them on the spot...
Once they've been given 'due process' or whatever passes for it corporate
jurisdiction, the megacorps can and do write their own laws, after all.
You commit a crime on corporate property, you become subject to
megacorporate 'law.' Is it fair? Probably, to some extent or the other.
But I doubt that any corporation is going to like the idea of keeping
lots of prisoners locked away somewhere, it costs money and expenditures
hurt the bottom line. On the other hand, if those trespassers happen to
find themselves dead from a guard with an overly quick trigger finger, it
could solve lots of problems. No court costs, no prison costs. All you've
got to pay for is the price of a bullet or three a cheap coffin and a
cheap funeral. If the person(s) had relatives, produce some compensation,
keep them quiet.

Granted, I don't see every crime being punished with death, but I can
certainly see most anything involving shadowrunners being relegated to
the shoot first, ask questions if we feel like it category. I'd expect
most white-collar criminals (embezzlers, etc) to be imprisoned unless
their crime was seriously large (stole multiple millions of nY)... and
might be surprised if they weren't just locked away then. But violent
crime, anything that directly involves the SINless, I'd expect a bullet
to be a heck of a lot cheaper and easier than a prison cell for the rest
of the person's life.

<EGMG> Unless you can effectively brainwash the captured miscreants
(break out the Psychotropic IC!) :):)



--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 8
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:14:40 GMT
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:39:26 -0500, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:06:13 -0700 Mamoulian <shine@************.NET>
> writes:
> >I have some questions regarding incarseration in Shadowrun:
> >
> >Who runs it?
>
> I would expect there to be both governmental as well as corporate
> prisons, probably with the corporate prisons run to make some sort of
> profit or at least off-set the costs associated with running the prison.
> Assuming they don't just execute criminals, rather than imprison them:P

If a corp ran a prison, it could not execute its prisoners. This would be
the decision of a country's justice system.

Besides, prisons couldn't hope to become profitable. It currently costs
between $20,000 and $50,000 to incarcerate each prisoner (housing, food,
guards, administration, etc.). Things would have to change "big-time" in
order to make a similar profit per prisoner.

> >Where are the major prisons?

How I see prisons in Shadowrun is very similar to John Carpenter's "Escape
from New York". For Seattle, a major "prison" could be located on one of
the larger islands in Puget Sound-- or even the bottom tip of Vancouver
Island (which would be better isolated by a greater expanse of water).
Drop in your prisoners and let them fend for themselves. If they produce a
surplus crop or any exportable goods, they can trade them for the things
that they need (within reason, of course-- no man-portable surface-to-air
missiles :) It also makes sending your framed (or overly violent) PCs to
prison an adventure in itself.

> >Are there still witness protection programs? Who runs them?

If the Mafia/Yakusa/Triads/Seoulpa still exist, you can bet that witness
protection/relocation programs do too :)



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 9
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:32:04 -0500
James Lindsay said:

>On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:39:26 -0500, John E Pederson wrote:
>> I would expect there to be both governmental as well as corporate
>> prisons, probably with the corporate prisons run to make some sort of
>> profit or at least off-set the costs associated with running the prison.
>> Assuming they don't just execute criminals, rather than imprison them:P
>
>If a corp ran a prison, it could not execute its prisoners. This would be
>the decision of a country's justice system.


Any corp with the resources to have its own jails is going to have
extraterritoriality, which means that they determine the prisoner's rights,
and lack thereof.

The same laws that let them ignore gun control laws let them declare
trespassing a capitol crime and cack runners as soon as the Mind Probe wears
off. And Lone Star is just another corp.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Freelance Corporate Espionage Agent
-Berek Thunderfist, Wolf Lord of the Blackmanes
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Bateau:What's with all the noise in your brain today?
Motoko:Probably just a loose wire."
-Ghost in the Shell
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
you've sold your soul, now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice T
Message no. 10
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:33:30 -0500
At 05:14 AM 12/10/97 GMT, you wrote:

>If a corp ran a prison, it could not execute its prisoners. This would be
>the decision of a country's justice system.

Except regarding crimes on extraterritorial corp property, which do not
fall under a nation's laws, by definition. Corps are responsible for
trying and carrying out sentences for crimes within their territory if they
claim extraterritoriality (which many do).

>Besides, prisons couldn't hope to become profitable. It currently costs
>between $20,000 and $50,000 to incarcerate each prisoner (housing, food,
>guards, administration, etc.). Things would have to change "big-time" in
>order to make a similar profit per prisoner.

Why do you think that a corp-run prison would be so expensive? No frills,
no rights for prisoners, just basic nutrition, minimal health care, and
they are required to *work*, raising their own food and the like. No
television or trid, no radio, no library, no annoying the administration
unless you want your head cracked open and your sentence lengthened...

>How I see prisons in Shadowrun is very similar to John Carpenter's "Escape
>from New York". For Seattle, a major "prison" could be located on one
of
>the larger islands in Puget Sound-- or even the bottom tip of Vancouver
>Island (which would be better isolated by a greater expanse of water).
>Drop in your prisoners and let them fend for themselves. If they produce a
>surplus crop or any exportable goods, they can trade them for the things
>that they need (within reason, of course-- no man-portable surface-to-air
>missiles :) It also makes sending your framed (or overly violent) PCs to
>prison an adventure in itself.

Interesting, although you are talking pretty close to a death sentence for
most people so sentenced. Not good for PR, especially if you're talking
about the UCAS gov't, with its roots in U.S. constitutional law.

>If the Mafia/Yakusa/Triads/Seoulpa still exist, you can bet that witness
>protection/relocation programs do too :)

Yeah, and I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts the corps run their own
versions, too, in 2050.

losthalo
Message no. 11
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:41:26 -0500
> Any corp with the resources to have its own jails is going to have
> extraterritoriality, which means that they determine the prisoner's rights,
> and lack thereof.
>
> The same laws that let them ignore gun control laws let them declare
> trespassing a capitol crime and cack runners as soon as the Mind Probe wears
> off. And Lone Star is just another corp.
>
However, Lone Star is hired by a government to enforce the laws of that
government. Thus, Lone Star would be bound by its contract to uphold the
UCAS Constitution. If yout scenario were true, then any area under Lone
Star enforcement would be effectively extraterritorial, as Lone Star could
enforce any law it so desired.
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:44:07 +0100
John E Pederson said on 16:58/ 9 Dec 97...

> I'd expect most white-collar criminals (embezzlers, etc) to be
> imprisoned unless their crime was seriously large (stole multiple
> millions of nY)... and might be surprised if they weren't just locked
> away then.

Perhaps something a lot worse for your average corporate citizen commiting
crimes is losing their job, and thereby their corporate "nationality".
They're out on the streets, and everything they took for granted isn't
there anymore.

As long as the criminal is just some worker who doesn't know anything
important about the corp, this is an easy enough way to go: the corp is
rid of the criminal and doesn't have to lock him or her up; it sets an
example for the other potential criminals in the workforce; with a bit of
luck the criminal gets hired by the competition and performs more
criminal acts there; and finally the first corp won't get too bad an image
because of inhumane treatment of criminals.

> <EGMG> Unless you can effectively brainwash the captured miscreants
> (break out the Psychotropic IC!) :):)

Also an option, if you want to keep the criminal in your corp, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:44:07 +0100
Duncan McNeill-Burton said on 0:32/10 Dec 97...

> James Lindsay said:
>
> >If a corp ran a prison, it could not execute its prisoners. This would be
> >the decision of a country's justice system.
>
> Any corp with the resources to have its own jails is going to have
> extraterritoriality, which means that they determine the prisoner's rights,
> and lack thereof.

It looks to me like there's a misunderstanding here. James thinks the
corps mentioned run prisons for the country's government, to keep that
country's prisoners in order to make a profit; while Duncan (and most
others) mean the corp has prisons for the criminals that the corp arrests
itself, on its own territory, for crimes committed against that corp.

> The same laws that let them ignore gun control laws let them declare
> trespassing a capitol crime and cack runners as soon as the Mind Probe wears
> off. And Lone Star is just another corp.

Except LS isn't extraterritorial, IIRC. LS can hold you because they
perform police duties for the Seattle Metroplex, and therefore need to
lock up people from time to time so they can't run away after being
arrested. LS must uphold the laws of Seattle/the UCAS, not its own.

An extraterritorial corp, OTOH, has to deal with no laws other than the
ones it makes for itself, at least on its own terrain. Not all corps are
extraterritorial, though -- if they were, then the best thing _anyone_
could do would be to start a private corporation and declare their own
grounds a separate country. Then you'd get a situation very much like
in Snow Crash.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 14
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:59:06 GMT
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:32:04 -0500, Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:

> James Lindsay said:
>
> >On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:39:26 -0500, John E Pederson wrote:
> >> I would expect there to be both governmental as well as corporate
> >> prisons, probably with the corporate prisons run to make some sort of
> >> profit or at least off-set the costs associated with running the prison.
> >> Assuming they don't just execute criminals, rather than imprison them:P
> >
> >If a corp ran a prison, it could not execute its prisoners. This would be
> >the decision of a country's justice system.
>
> Any corp with the resources to have its own jails is going to have
> extraterritoriality, which means that they determine the prisoner's rights,
> and lack thereof.

Err, I wasn't aware that this thread assumed that the crime would take
place on corporate territory (and therefore be subject to corporate law).
I was simply postulating that if a criminal caught in the act of committing
a crime were sent to jail-- and government prisons did not exist-- a
corporation wouldn't kill those it was contracted to incarcerate in its
jails just to reduce operating costs.

Corporate jails and corporate law are a completely different matter, just
as a citizen of one country must abide by the laws of another country when
in that country (if this means you are shot dead for wearing orange on a
Tuesday, so be it). But if corporations exist that are contracted to
incarcerate prisoners found guilty in a federal court of law, they must
abide by the terms of that contract (and this would probably include the
job of care and feeding of said prisoners).

> The same laws that let them ignore gun control laws let them declare
> trespassing a capitol crime and cack runners as soon as the Mind Probe wears
> off. And Lone Star is just another corp.

But Lone Star doesn't work for itself like other corporations. It is a
corporation contracted out by the government to provide law enforcement to
those areas of the city not directly protected by the corps themselves.

Lone Star does not make the laws... it just enforces them. If they don't
do a good enough job, word will get out to the public and they will demand
that another corporation be hired to take its place. If the families of
incarcerated individuals get wind that the corporation controlling the
government's prisons is actually executing everyone that enters their
facilities, there would be a public outcry demanding that the contract with
the corporation be terminated. The government could even sue the
corporation for breach of contract.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 15
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:35:40 GMT
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:33:30 -0500, losthalo wrote:

> At 05:14 AM 12/10/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
> >If a corp ran a prison, it could not execute its prisoners. This would be
> >the decision of a country's justice system.
>
> Except regarding crimes on extraterritorial corp property, which do not
> fall under a nation's laws, by definition. Corps are responsible for
> trying and carrying out sentences for crimes within their territory if they
> claim extraterritoriality (which many do).

Yes. As I pointed out in another posting, corporate law and federal law
are two completely different things, and prisons would need to exist for
both. You are discussing the former, while I was referring to the latter.

> >Besides, prisons couldn't hope to become profitable. It currently costs
> >between $20,000 and $50,000 to incarcerate each prisoner (housing, food,
> >guards, administration, etc.). Things would have to change "big-time"
in
> >order to make a similar profit per prisoner.
>
> Why do you think that a corp-run prison would be so expensive? No frills,
> no rights for prisoners, just basic nutrition, minimal health care, and
> they are required to *work*, raising their own food and the like. No
> television or trid, no radio, no library, no annoying the administration
> unless you want your head cracked open and your sentence lengthened...

Again, I was referring to a contracted corporation that would handle a
federal government's incarceration procedures, just like "Lone Star" is
contracted to function as that government's police forces, or "Trash R Us"
is contracted to provide sanitation duties. Such a corp would still have
to abide by that country's constitution-- and unless it has changed much,
still includes basic human rights for prisoners (or all types).

> >How I see prisons in Shadowrun is very similar to John Carpenter's "Escape
> >from New York". For Seattle, a major "prison" could be located on
one of
> >the larger islands in Puget Sound-- or even the bottom tip of Vancouver
> >Island (which would be better isolated by a greater expanse of water).
> >Drop in your prisoners and let them fend for themselves. If they produce a
> >surplus crop or any exportable goods, they can trade them for the things
> >that they need (within reason, of course-- no man-portable surface-to-air
> >missiles :) It also makes sending your framed (or overly violent) PCs to
> >prison an adventure in itself.
>
> Interesting, although you are talking pretty close to a death sentence for
> most people so sentenced. Not good for PR, especially if you're talking
> about the UCAS gov't, with its roots in U.S. constitutional law.

Not really, since the "prison" would eventually come to resemble something
like a small country in its own right. Mind you, it would be a lot more
brutal to what we are used to, but a pecking order would eventually
develop. It would not be in their best interest to "off" every incoming
new prisoner.

I guess I failed to mention that the prison in the movie was considered to
be one of the USA's maximum security prisons, so incarceration in such a
"facility" would be reserved for the worst cases anyways. Go out and rent
a copy of "Escape From New York" (not Escape from L.A.-- yuck!) to see what
I mean. Many of the inhabitants fended very well for themselves.

> >If the Mafia/Yakusa/Triads/Seoulpa still exist, you can bet that witness
> >protection/relocation programs do too :)
>
> Yeah, and I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts the corps run their own
> versions, too, in 2050.

And they all come with money-back guarantees :)



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 16
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:14:57 +0000
Something that just came to my mind, concerning prisons and police:

In William Gibsons "Mona Lisa Overdrive" one guy (Slick Henry) had
something in his brain, that would kill his short-time memorys if he got
excited. He got that as a good-bye-present in prison. I think it had a
russian name, but I can't remember (And I don't want to read through the
whole book right now)

Can anyone remember the name? (Hey Gurth, you re-read thr triology a few
month ago, right?)

Anyway, I came up with some stats:

Name <please insert>
cost: 2000Y
essence cost: 0.3

What it does is just the same as the thing from the book: it erases the
short-time memorys.So if someone has a lot of adrenaline in his blood (like
during fights, while decking/rigging or casting non-trivial spells) he
forgets what he did...say for the last two hours (Does anyone know how long
the STM lasts?).

And yeah, if you want to be a real asshole, inject someone with that puppy
some ACTH...:)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 17
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:37:38 +0000
In article <34981369.6054114@****.direct.ca>, James Lindsay
<jlindsay@******.CA> waffled & burbled about Prison in Shadowrun

<Snip>
>> I would expect there to be both governmental as well as corporate
>> prisons, probably with the corporate prisons run to make some sort of
>> profit or at least off-set the costs associated with running the prison.
>> Assuming they don't just execute criminals, rather than imprison them:P
>
>If a corp ran a prison, it could not execute its prisoners. This would be
>the decision of a country's justice system.

That seems reasonable except in cases where the corporations territorial
rights were infringed upon, in which case they can take any actions they
see fit, provided the arrest was made on their territory.

>Besides, prisons couldn't hope to become profitable. It currently costs
>between $20,000 and $50,000 to incarcerate each prisoner (housing, food,
>guards, administration, etc.). Things would have to change "big-time" in
>order to make a similar profit per prisoner.

With all due respect, there are prisons in Europe and the US, which have
gone over to private management and do make a profit. A sufficient
profit to offer a better facility than many state prisons. Discovery
channel had a couple of programs dedicated to the Penal system last
year, and this was one of hte big points they made during the show.
Private prisons, treated the prisoners better, had a more "comfortable"
staff and better (read nore modern) facilities.

>How I see prisons in Shadowrun is very similar to John Carpenter's "Escape
>from New York".

A popular view, but very difficult to manage. It may be possible to
wall off Mahattan, set up sono buoys and IR detection equipment to catch
runaways, mine the bridges etc. but the cost in manpower would be
tremendous.

One concept that I liked, but which isn't really workable, was ICE's
Death Valley Free Prison. Large areas of the US lands turned into free
for all prisons, where the inmates sort it out themselves, Sort of EfLA
meets Mad Max.

>For Seattle, a major "prison" could be located on one of
>the larger islands in Puget Sound-- or even the bottom tip of Vancouver
>Island (which would be better isolated by a greater expanse of water).
>Drop in your prisoners and let them fend for themselves. If they produce a
>surplus crop or any exportable goods, they can trade them for the things
>that they need (within reason, of course-- no man-portable surface-to-air
>missiles :) It also makes sending your framed (or overly violent) PCs to
>prison an adventure in itself.

The problems with Island prisons have been illustrated in modern history
and America has a few that are now museums, why aren't they used
anymore? because they simply don't work that well. Expensive to
maintain and run, expensive to man, and not as secure as people would
like.

If anyone here has seen "Fortress" with Christopher Lambert, they'll
know the scheme I mean. Now this style prison might work. Totally
enclosed completely underground, only one way in and out. Monitored by
a sophisticated computer system that does several things rather well.
Of course Msr Lambert is the only one in the prison's history to
successfully escape, but then he would wouldn't he.

I just can't see the penal system reinstating a system of prisons that
failed in their objective. However, following new and radical methods,
might work.

For my game, I have done this with all prisons. Convicts are stored in
underground cells covering several lower leves of incarceration
depending on crime. The closer to the end of the sentence the higher
they go, nearer to the surface. The convicted felons who have commited
serious crimes against society are ensconced on the lower levels where
certain experiments might go unnoticed. <g>

>> >Are there still witness protection programs? Who runs them?
>
>If the Mafia/Yakusa/Triads/Seoulpa still exist, you can bet that witness
>protection/relocation programs do too :)

I'd agree with this. And most likely these schemes are still run by
government agencies such as the FBI, and are probably just as
ineffective (if you take the Hollywood view anyway).

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 18
From: KrackerKorn <jmf4402@***.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:12:36 -0500
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Zixx wrote:

>
> Anyway, I came up with some stats:
>
> Name <please insert>
> cost: 2000Y
> essence cost: 0.3
>
> What it does is just the same as the thing from the book: it erases the
> short-time memorys.So if someone has a lot of adrenaline in his blood (like
> during fights, while decking/rigging or casting non-trivial spells) he
> forgets what he did...say for the last two hours (Does anyone know how long
> the STM lasts?).

Without rehersal, only a few seconds. However you could get around that
by saying the device inhibits the recoding of memories from STM to LTM
(Long Term Memory). A device could do that for as long as you wanted it
too, and when you came out of it, you would have no episodic memory of
events following its activation.
Message no. 19
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:36:57 -0500
> >How I see prisons in Shadowrun is very similar to John Carpenter's "Escape
> >from New York".
>
> A popular view, but very difficult to manage. It may be possible to
> wall off Mahattan, set up sono buoys and IR detection equipment to catch
> runaways, mine the bridges etc. but the cost in manpower would be
> tremendous.
>
> One concept that I liked, but which isn't really workable, was ICE's
> Death Valley Free Prison. Large areas of the US lands turned into free
> for all prisons, where the inmates sort it out themselves, Sort of EfLA
> meets Mad Max.

Two problems with the whole island/desolate area prison colony deal-
Georgia and Australia. :)

On a more serious note, prison colonies do present a major problem for
short term sentences. Fine, murders with no chance of release could be
dumped on an island and left to fend for themselves, but it would also
serve as a breeding ground for more hardened criminals. Essentially, you
would be taking people whose ability to live in society is limited,
placing them in an environment where there is no society whatsoever, where
the law of the jungle rules, and then expect them to re-adapt to society
when their sentence is up. Really, if a prison has no intention of
rehabilitation, execution is the only viable form of punishment; anything
else is simply breeding worse criminals.
Message no. 20
From: "Carlton B. Davis" <davisc74@***.ACS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:12:25 -0600
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Zixx wrote:

> Something that just came to my mind, concerning prisons and police:
>
> In William Gibsons "Mona Lisa Overdrive" one guy (Slick Henry) had
> something in his brain, that would kill his short-time memorys if he got
> excited. He got that as a good-bye-present in prison. I think it had a
> russian name, but I can't remember (And I don't want to read through the
> whole book right now)

Induced Korsakov's Syndrome I believe.

In the book it was used on criminals (In that case a car thief) by first
teaching them a skill they could perform in a minute or two, then dosing
'em with the drug. While they were on it they could only remember for a
few minutes at a time, just enough time to put together a circuit board,
stamp a license plate or whatever. After they were released they were
supposed to not remember a thing about it... In reality, it left them
with a confused montage of the time, and the unforunate side effect of
having a relapse whenever they were under stress. Whether or not all
prisoners had these side effects was not stated.

Carlton Davis
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:21:58 +0100
Zixx said on 22:14/10 Dec 97...

> Something that just came to my mind, concerning prisons and police:
>
> In William Gibsons "Mona Lisa Overdrive" one guy (Slick Henry) had
> something in his brain, that would kill his short-time memorys if he got
> excited. He got that as a good-bye-present in prison. I think it had a
> russian name, but I can't remember (And I don't want to read through the
> whole book right now)
>
> Can anyone remember the name? (Hey Gurth, you re-read thr triology a few
> month ago, right?)

I did, but I can't remember it either. I'll look it up, hold on...
"Korsakov's" it's called in chapter 18. It's some kind of chemical
treatment whose effects kick in when Slick gets stressed.

> Anyway, I came up with some stats:
>
> Name <please insert>
> cost: 2000Y
> essence cost: 0.3

Why does this cost Essence, and why is it so cheap? Or is the cost per
dose? If it is, I think you should adjust the rules somewhat -- Slick got
this as a treatment in a prison, and he's still suffering from it much
later on.

> What it does is just the same as the thing from the book: it erases the
> short-time memorys.So if someone has a lot of adrenaline in his blood (like
> during fights, while decking/rigging or casting non-trivial spells) he
> forgets what he did...say for the last two hours (Does anyone know how long
> the STM lasts?).

Not all that long, in the case of Slick Henry. I don't think it's two
hours, unless Gentry is in the matrix for a very long time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 22
From: "Just me, Glenn" <hypoxic@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:19:08 -0700
James Lindsay wrote:
>
> On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:39:26 -0500, John E Pederson wrote:
>
> Besides, prisons couldn't hope to become profitable. It currently
> costs
> between $20,000 and $50,000 to incarcerate each prisoner (housing,
> food,
> guards, administration, etc.). Things would have to change "big-time"
> in
> order to make a similar profit per prisoner.
>

Just to clarify something, that is for standard prisoners. Four years
ago my buddy worked as a deathrow guard and gave me the following
figure. To keep a deathrow inmate alive for a year costs $100,000 or
more. Maximum security costs even more, mainly due to facilities and
legal fees because they can appeal and appeal ad infinatum practically.
I can't imagine it got any cheaper since then, and most deathrow inmates
still seem to avoid ever completing their sentences so we just get more
of them making the grand total even higher.
Message no. 23
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:45:27 +0000
On 10 Dec 97 at 19:12, KrackerKorn wrote:

> > What it does is just the same as the thing from the book: it erases the
> > short-time memorys.So if someone has a lot of adrenaline in his blood (like
> > during fights, while decking/rigging or casting non-trivial spells) he
> > forgets what he did...say for the last two hours (Does anyone know how long
> > the STM lasts?).
>
> Without rehersal, only a few seconds. However you could get around that
> by saying the device inhibits the recoding of memories from STM to LTM
> (Long Term Memory). A device could do that for as long as you wanted it
> too, and when you came out of it, you would have no episodic memory of
> events following its activation.

Well, a few seconds are enough to irritate someone bigtime. Casting spells
would be impossible and the Sammy's never going to know hwta he should
react to, as he forgets it.


--

"Happy birthday, self!"
-me
Message no. 24
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:31:37 -0500
At 12:12 AM 12/11/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Zixx wrote:
>
>> Something that just came to my mind, concerning prisons and police:
>>
>> In William Gibsons "Mona Lisa Overdrive" one guy (Slick Henry) had
>> something in his brain, that would kill his short-time memorys if he got
>> excited. He got that as a good-bye-present in prison. I think it had a
>> russian name, but I can't remember (And I don't want to read through the
>> whole book right now)
>
>Induced Korsakov's Syndrome I believe.
>
>In the book it was used on criminals (In that case a car thief) by first
>teaching them a skill they could perform in a minute or two, then dosing
>'em with the drug. While they were on it they could only remember for a
>few minutes at a time, just enough time to put together a circuit board,
>stamp a license plate or whatever. After they were released they were
>supposed to not remember a thing about it... In reality, it left them
>with a confused montage of the time, and the unforunate side effect of
>having a relapse whenever they were under stress. Whether or not all
>prisoners had these side effects was not stated.

Actually, Cherry Chesterfield wasn't too surprised at his relapses, she
figured out what they were, so I'd say they were at least fairly common
amongst Induced Korsakov's inmates.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
Message no. 25
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:45:27 +0000
On 11 Dec 97 at 11:21, Gurth wrote:

[Gibson's memory-eraser]
> > Can anyone remember the name? (Hey Gurth, you re-read thr triology a few
> > month ago, right?)
>
> I did, but I can't remember it either. I'll look it up, hold on...
> "Korsakov's" it's called in chapter 18. It's some kind of chemical
> treatment whose effects kick in when Slick gets stressed.
>
> > Anyway, I came up with some stats:
> >
> > Name <please insert>
> > cost: 2000Y
> > essence cost: 0.3
>
> Why does this cost Essence,

'Cause I thought it was chrome...ok, make that body-index...

> and why is it so cheap?

Well, I wanted to make it pretty common, so it had to be cheap. Sure,
getting it on the street is another matten (street index 4, anyone?)

> Or is the cost per
> dose? If it is, I think you should adjust the rules somewhat -- Slick got
> this as a treatment in a prison, and he's still suffering from it much
> later on.

Yeah. I was thinking about a piece o chrome you got implanted and than you
have to deal with it for the rest of your life. This keeps criminals for
trieing anything funny, as they just won't remembr what they wanted to do,
when they start a fight. So, if it's a chemical treatment, no problem: It's
still permanent...


--

"Happy birthday, self!"
-me
Message no. 26
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:20:19 +0000
In article <199712111021.LAA07699@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Zixx said on 22:14/10 Dec 97...
>
>> Something that just came to my mind, concerning prisons and police:
>>
>> In William Gibsons "Mona Lisa Overdrive" one guy (Slick Henry) had
>> something in his brain, that would kill his short-time memorys if he got
>> excited. He got that as a good-bye-present in prison. I think it had a
>> russian name, but I can't remember (And I don't want to read through the
>> whole book right now)

Chemically-induced Korsakov's Syndrome. It wasn't a good-bye present, he
did most of his sentence in that mode, and still flashed back to it
under stress after his release.

>> What it does is just the same as the thing from the book: it erases the
>> short-time memorys.So if someone has a lot of adrenaline in his blood (like
>> during fights, while decking/rigging or casting non-trivial spells) he
>> forgets what he did...say for the last two hours (Does anyone know how long
>> the STM lasts?).
>
>Not all that long, in the case of Slick Henry. I don't think it's two
>hours, unless Gentry is in the matrix for a very long time.

It's minutes at most. The book says he was trained to assemble a small
gearbox: when he could do it in less than the Korsakov interval (seemed
to be only a few minutes) that was it, a few years vanished into a blur
of fear and blurred memory.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 27
From: Mamoulian <shine@************.NET>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:11:24 -0700
At 02:20 AM 12/14/97 +0000, you wrote:
>In article <199712111021.LAA07699@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
><gurth@******.NL> writes
>>Zixx said on 22:14/10 Dec 97...
>>
>>> Something that just came to my mind, concerning prisons and police:
>>>
>>> In William Gibsons "Mona Lisa Overdrive" one guy (Slick Henry) had
>>> something in his brain, that would kill his short-time memorys if he got
>>> excited. He got that as a good-bye-present in prison. I think it had a
>>> russian name, but I can't remember (And I don't want to read through the
>>> whole book right now)
>
>Chemically-induced Korsakov's Syndrome.<snip>

Oh...that is nasty! I read this and three words come to mind, "A Clockwork
Orange"

>Diabolical Laughter<

Mamo
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Prison in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:58:54 +0100
Mamoulian said on 10:11/14 Dec 97...

> >Chemically-induced Korsakov's Syndrome.<snip>
>
> Oh...that is nasty! I read this and three words come to mind, "A Clockwork
> Orange"

That's something else, but Lone Star has experimented with ACO-like
behavior adjustment (see Lone Star sourcebook page 75 and further). In
ACO, the main character, whose name I forgot, is exposed to violent images
to such an extent that gets literally sick of them; Korsakov's treatment
from Neuromancer is a way to make people forget things.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
My mind is numb but my mouth's okay.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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