Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Problems
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:21:08 +0000
I am leaving from my easter holidays and I have mailed listserv to set
shadowrn shadowtk and plot0d tyo no mail but it hasn`t replied so I do not
know if it got my command, I could come back and find I have melted down my mail
box with tons of mail.

Is there any administrators who can make sure I`m set to nomail

Thanks

Time to go home

Adios amigos

Plus ca change, plus c`est la meme chose, mes amis.

cinder
Message no. 2
From: Pablo Jagupsky <pavloj@*******.bgu.ac.il>
Subject: problems
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 21:26:53 +0200 (IST)
I've encountered a few problems in my relatively short experience in the
shadowrun game (two years). I hope you could help me out a bit: 1)I'm
having difficulty in restraining my players when it comes to keeping calm
when dealing with the opposition.They unnnecessarily draw weapons and get
into a fight on almost every little thing. They even manage to ruin full
adventures that I spend hours on creating in less then a minute. 2)Since
I live in a place were roleplayers are rare (Israel), I decided to play
both GM and player in my group. Now, before you torch me with flaming
tongues, I'd like to explain. I bought the shadowrun game after a
miserable experience with TSR's AD&D game. When I bought SRII, I didn't
really consider the fact that I'd GM it(stupid me, huh?).My first group
had a very poor vocabulary, and had many difficulties reading the stuff on
their own. I was also fascinated by the Characters in the game, and had my
mind set on playing one. This might be a personnal problem, but I'd like
it very much if you'd comment. In the worst case, I'll sign on at
Shadowtalk (how does that work anyway?).
Please send comments.
******************************************************************
"The future is uncertain, but the end is always near" * *
-Jim Morrison *
*********************Mike Yagupsky********************************
Message no. 3
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 23:49:22 +0100 (MET)
Mike Yagupsky wrote:
> I've encountered a few problems in my relatively short experience in the
> shadowrun game (two years). I hope you could help me out a bit:
> 1)I'm
> having difficulty in restraining my players when it comes to keeping calm
> when dealing with the opposition.They unnnecessarily draw weapons and get
> into a fight on almost every little thing. They even manage to ruin full
> adventures that I spend hours on creating in less then a minute.
Such trigger-happy players may be calmed through opposition. After they
encountered opposition that hit 'em HARD (say, S wounds or higher on
most characters) and they have to spend more Nuyen on Docs then they get
for their actual run, they should calm down. If not, there will be the
time they can't afford their ammo... :-)

> 2)Since [being player and GM]
I dont understand if you are planning to be GM and player simultaniously
or switchingwith someone else (one being the GM, the other player, and
on the next run they switch places). I would discourage you from being
both at once since I'd assume most players would follow your player
around, since you know what will happen.
On the other hand, being GM in turn is very well IMHO, since you will
have at least two people who are bound to know all rules and can discuss
urgent matters with the gaming universe as most important idea, not their
characters survival.

I hope I didn't write too confusedly.... Have worked till 0900AM this
morning (*yawn*) and am not fully recovered yet.
A happy new year, it can only turn better after this night!!!

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
Message no. 4
From: "Ingmar Krusch" <fastjack@******.et-inf.fho-emden.de>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 02:56:17 +0100 (MET)
Hi there !

Happy new Year (am I to late ??? ;)

On Mon, 1 Jan 1996 Mike Yagupsky wrote :

<snip>
> 1)I'm
>having difficulty in restraining my players when it comes to keeping calm
>when dealing with the opposition.They unnnecessarily draw weapons and get
>into a fight on almost every little thing. They even manage to ruin full
>adventures that I spend hours on creating in less then a minute.
<snip>

I've got to agree with Sascha on this one. The key to solve this is
opposition ! Give 'em a bloody nose every (!) time they get triggerhappy and
they soon will spend more time and money at the doc than everywhere else.
They should calm down soon enough just to survive.

My group has similar problems right now : the mage gets shot down really
badly at least twice every session and his player is bored most of the time
(GM:"The two latinos you observe enter the bar. What do you do ?" MAGE:"ok,
I'm bleeding." :). This really is bad luck (NO, I really don't want this :)))
and I have to come up with something to get him out of the line of fire if
he wants to survive this adventure (it's a beginner character)!

Salve
Ingmar
--
*******************************************************************************

If you did it and you're still alive,
you've probably done it right !

-J. K. W., freelancer

*******************************************************************************
+---------------------------------------------+-------------------------------+

| eMAil : krusch@*******.fho-emden.de | ^-^ |
| : fastjack@******.et-inf.fho-emden.de | BEWARE of JUDGE =<o,o>= |
+---------------------------------------------+
""""" |
| "~" |
| " |
+-------------------------------+
Message no. 5
From: rhood <rhood@*****.net>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 23:43:25 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 1 Jan 1996, Ingmar Krusch wrote:

> I've got to agree with Sascha on this one. The key to solve this is
> opposition ! Give 'em a bloody nose every (!) time they get triggerhappy and
> they soon will spend more time and money at the doc than everywhere else.
> They should calm down soon enough just to survive.
> Salve
> Ingmar

Another way to try to deal with it, and it would probably work best in
conjunction with the above method, is to let some innocent people get
killed due to their rash behavior and let them deal with that on their
concious(sp). You could, if you want, be a little detailed about the
innocents being hit.. May drive the point home more.

Robyn.
Message no. 6
From: seb@***.ripco.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 02:08:10 -0600 (CST)
> > I've got to agree with Sascha on this one. The key to solve this is
> > opposition ! Give 'em a bloody nose every (!) time they get triggerhappy and
> > they soon will spend more time and money at the doc than everywhere else.
> > They should calm down soon enough just to survive.
> > Salve
>
> Another way to try to deal with it, and it would probably work best in
> conjunction with the above method, is to let some innocent people get
> killed due to their rash behavior and let them deal with that on their
> concious(sp). You could, if you want, be a little detailed about the
> innocents being hit.. May drive the point home more.
>
I think the most sucessful method is one that teaches alternate methods of
problem solving. Having well armed hitmen who just want to talk, and have no
interst in harming the caracters (but easily could) teaches the players that
not all NPC's are "opposition". This could be the case if the players were
witnesses or atempting to fence something or whatever- if you let them turn a
profit on the transaction, they'll probably consider a similar course in the
future. Also, the players may be able to make friends and gain alies- if they
don't try, make it obvious that they are pissing local gangs off, etc, while
other runners are not (rumors of snitchers from buddies, etc.)
The "innocent bystander" thing doesn't rerally work in our campaign- the
players are all moral, but the caracters may not be, or at the very least are
numbed by thier lifestyle. The new wired rules in cybertechnology make for
lots of innocents getting shot, and the caracter just shrugs. After all, a
job must be done.
Message no. 7
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:20:50 +0100
Pablo Jagupsky said on 1 Jan 96...

> I've encountered a few problems in my relatively short experience in the
> shadowrun game (two years). I hope you could help me out a bit: 1)I'm
> having difficulty in restraining my players when it comes to keeping calm
> when dealing with the opposition.They unnnecessarily draw weapons and get
> into a fight on almost every little thing. They even manage to ruin full
> adventures that I spend hours on creating in less then a minute.

That can be a problem, yes... First solution would be to talk to the
players (I'm a big advocate of the GM telling the players what (s)he
thinks they are doing "wrong") but if that doesn't help, do as has been
suggested many times before to GMs with similar experiences: give them a
run that they can _try_ to solve by shooting everyone in sight, but after
the smoke clears it turns out they just blew away the most important
clue or NPC. Or, if you want to be a bit more nasty, let them find that
out only after they've gone to a lot of trouble to solve the rest of the
adventure. Like, after six hours (real time) they find out that the only
person who has seen Mrs. X before she died was the ganger they killed five
hours fifty minutes earlier...

> 2)Since I live in a place were roleplayers are rare (Israel),

There's at least one other SR player there... :)

> I decided to play
> both GM and player in my group. Now, before you torch me with flaming
> tongues, I'd like to explain.

Nothing wrong with that. I've been doing the same for over 3 years now...
With just one player you almost have to, I think.

> I bought the shadowrun game after a
> miserable experience with TSR's AD&D game. When I bought SRII, I didn't
> really consider the fact that I'd GM it(stupid me, huh?).

GMing 101: if _you_ buy the rulebook, _you_ are the GM *grin*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Let's get nautical, ladies!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 8
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:53:32 -0700 (MST)
Pablo Jagupsky wrote:
|
|I've encountered a few problems in my relatively short experience in the
|shadowrun game (two years). I hope you could help me out a bit: 1)I'm
|having difficulty in restraining my players when it comes to keeping calm
|when dealing with the opposition.They unnnecessarily draw weapons and get
|into a fight on almost every little thing. They even manage to ruin full
|adventures that I spend hours on creating in less then a minute.

I would talk to your players about it. Tell them that killing everyone they
meet is not the sollution to your adventures. If they persist in fighting
there way through adventures let them suffer the consequences. I.e., if
they kill their only source of information then the adventure is over and
their characters don't get paid. Do not perpetuate the problem by rewarding
failure.

As for running a character in your own game, if it works go for it. I've
been in a game before where the GM had a character and it was a lot of fun.
The GM was very good and didn't allow his character the privilage of
information that he had. Oddly enough his character was slightly insane and
responded to most encounters by shooting first and asking questions later.
Our (the players') characters had to hold him down so he wouldn't blow away
the information sources for the adventure :)

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer The UnCover Company
dbuehrer@****.org info: uncover@****.org
www.geopages.com/TimesSquare/1068 access: database.carl.org
www.carl.org/uncover/unchome.html
Customer Support: 1-800-787-7979
FAX: (303) 758-5946
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:38:32 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 1 Jan 96...

> > 2)Since [being player and GM]
> I dont understand if you are planning to be GM and player simultaniously
> or switchingwith someone else (one being the GM, the other player, and
> on the next run they switch places). I would discourage you from being
> both at once since I'd assume most players would follow your player
> around, since you know what will happen.

I've found it to be exactly the other way around. My character follows the
player's chars around, because he (the player) quite well knows I'm not
going to give anything away unless I think he's stuck so bad he won't get
anywhere without a little help. In those situations it can be good to have
my character come up with a simple idea that at least gets the whole mess
going again, even though it doesn't really solve anything for the player.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Let's get nautical, ladies!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: boserj@******.com (Jeffrey Boser)
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:37:10 -0800
Pablo Jagupsky wrote:
|
|I've encountered a few problems in my relatively short experience in the
|shadowrun game (two years). I hope you could help me out a bit: 1)I'm
|having difficulty in restraining my players when it comes to keeping calm
|when dealing with the opposition.They unnnecessarily draw weapons and get
|into a fight on almost every little thing. They even manage to ruin full
|adventures that I spend hours on creating in less then a minute.

Personally, I'd start putting the characters in more public situations,
where even *displaying* a weapon will get them arrested, all illegal
cyberware surgicly removed, jailed, and fined.

Just let em chase a target right into a corp shopping mall, for example.

.....jeff

--
D'oh!
Message no. 11
From: "Larry White (WPG) (Exchange)" <Larryw@********.MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:57:16 -0800
On 1 Jan 96 Pablo Jagupsky[SMTP:pavloj@*******.bgu.ac.il] discussed problems
with players that would ruin in a minute a run which he'd spent hours
designing, and about running a character in a game in which he was the GM.

I like the discussion his note has brought out.

Here's some of my thoughts, not all of which are necessarily consistent
amongst themselves:

a) if a combat is unessential to the plot-line or the general enjoyment of
the game you don't have to run it with a gazillion dice rolls. My favorite
example of this is the troll who was bored listening to other characters
question people and get on about solving the problem at hand. Player: "I go
down the street and into the nearest bar". GM: "What's your intention.
What's the general stuff you want your character to do over the next couple
of hours". Player: "I want to pick a fight". GM: "Your character
picks a
fight, wipes a lot of faces in the floor, and has a great time." Over and
done in 30 seconds. You can do this with any extraneous thing (useless
decking, useless stakeouts, useless combats) that doesn't enhance the
general enjoyment of the game. You can do this when its one person trying
to gain some attention (as in the above) or when the players are wiping out
an informant. For some people the dice rolling and action sequence itself
is a "reward" and by not letting them play out the combat you are removing
one of their "rewards" and making them less likely to do it again. In the
case above, I might just have easily rolled dice to decide whether the
outcome would be favorable, indifferent (as above), or harmful to the
character when he picked a fight in the bar. The players know I could just
as easily have rolled dice and responded with "You pick a fight, only to
discover that an urban brawl team in training walks in just after the fight
starts, ... "

b) It is acceptable for the characters to totally defeat themselves in
accomplishing their mission in the first 30 minutes of play. That's OKAY.
You can wrap it up. GM: "You spend the next 8 days trying to find another
clue, and finally, when trying to report failure back to the Mr. Johnson you
discover through his answering service that he's been dead for 5 days. Zero
money. Zero karma. Shall we play Monopoly?" Having a second run already
prepared is a cool thing ... then you don't have to play monopoly. In the
original example, the GM has several hours of work invested in a run which,
with 20 minutes rework, can be made into a completely different run. In
particular, the characters know NOTHING about stuff that's been designed and
which they've not yet discovered.

c) In my 16 years of gaming I have commonly seen GMs run characters in their
own games. Like any other part of GMing, doing this does require practice
and thought, with occasional miserable failures and occasional great
successes. The most common reason for doing this has been that there are
multiple competent GMs and multiple competent characters in the group, and
if you didn't do this then the GM's characters would grow powerful MORE
SLOWLY than the other player's characters. By doing this we removed one
thing that might make it so a GM wouldn't want to be a GM.

d) Running a character in your game provides a natural way to get the team
past some obstacle on which they are blocked. Of course, since they didn't
earn their way past it themselves there should be a smaller karma award.

e) There can be major problems with the GM who runs a character in his own
game. If there are, its likely that there are major problems with the GM
other than this and this is just one symptom of these problems.

f) As a GM I've also run NPCs as if they are my own player character, in
fact I ran one that was supposed to die as part of the background of the
situation. This can add excitement to the game, and increases the chances
that on future runs the others will respond with whoever I'm running based o
n their interaction, not on the fact that its MY character. Some of my
character's suggestions have been helpful ones. Some of my character's
suggestions have caused unproductive detours which, IMHO, increased the
overall challenge of the game. The other player's didn't agree with my
humble opinion. :-)

g) If an essential party member is commonly trashed (e.g. the shaman) and
unavailable or unproductive when needed either the players or GM can adjust
things. GM Examples: The Free Spirit that keeps checking in on the unlucky
shaman because the spirit has guessed there will be opportunities where he
can trade healing for karma. Another NPC the GM runs that makes things
better. Controlling to some extent the outcome of the battles to avoid
certain problems. Player Examples (better): Learn to protect your vital
team members. Look for alternate ways to avoid the problems with certain
combat outcomes. Attract someone new to the game who can fill in the gap.

Happy New Year to all.

P.S. to those near Seattle or who visit Washington: We're starting up our
shadowrunning group after the holidays. Join us in Redmond (The Barrens) on
Sundays, starting around noon. Apply via phone to me 882-4759 or to Randy
882-1153
Message no. 12
From: westec@******.COM
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:33:11 -0600
>I like the discussion his note has brought out.

>
>
>b) It is acceptable for the characters to totally defeat themselves in
>accomplishing their mission in the first 30 minutes of play. That's OKAY.


my players have done that on occasion, and usually at some point realize
they've
shot themselves in the foot somewhere. trick is most times they will try to
finish
a run (whether for moral or retribution reasons), and that can continue the
"module"
and follow a related but entirely new thread of adventure. this can be good
for
playing as well as the character's rep.


>c) In my 16 years of gaming I have commonly seen GMs run characters in their
>own games.

I've done it often, and killed some of them off as object lessons to lessen
the first-hand experience of inappropriate behaviour or reponse. for XP/IP/etc
I would usually figure experience normally, for the number of regular players,
thereby not reducing their experience awards by an extra player... and use that
like amount (or the least number if different players got different awards).
fortunately for me, it's like being a referee in paintball, my players know not
to blindly follow my character around because something could just as well
happen.


>Like any other part of GMing, doing this does require practice


very good note... I've seen several GMs play their own characters in the games
I've played in, and you don't have to worry about rescuing or helping that
character,
or just put them in the line of danger and it'll dissipate. sad but true...
but I've
also seen just as many run characters inside their campaigns with as much
color and
personality and calamity in their lives as the other players.

it helps to have a "conclave of GMs" if you will, that you can run with...
I got
into that in Korea with several games and campaigns going on. we GMs as a
group got
together rather informally and discussed rules interpretations, new stuff,
players,
and even our own characters, and occasionally to get another GM to
roll/adjudicate some
particular asset a GM character wanted to develop/acquire. this forum on
the internet allows something of that same style of group collective...



>d) Running a character in your game provides a natural way to get the team
>past some obstacle on which they are blocked. Of course, since they didn't
>earn their way past it themselves there should be a smaller karma award.


barring the ole generic intelligence (idea popping into head), or
detective/deduction
roll... sometimes I just sorta stop play and slowly speak simple facts in
sequence
to make the players stop and think. sometimes they just haven't heard
something right
or confused other players out-of-play comments to mean something in the game...



>e) There can be major problems with the GM who runs a character in his own
>game. If there are, its likely that there are major problems with the GM
>other than this and this is just one symptom of these problems.


uh huh...usually...



>g) If an essential party member is commonly trashed (e.g. the shaman) and
>unavailable or unproductive when needed either the players or GM can adjust
>things.


the characters should take pains to keep some kind of watch over such team
mates,
as they usually have "some" asset to contribute... altho in your example that
was a new player... hmmmm, tough starting character for a newbie eh?? you might
give such new players the benefit of fudged rolls in their favor until they
learn
on their own, and also it might behoove you to drop them some advice on
occasion
before they lose interest (in the game or even your group).





---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323
IPPA #A-0117
Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------
Message no. 13
From: westec@******.COM
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:40:09 -0600
><snip>
>> 1)I'm
>>having difficulty in restraining my players when it comes to keeping calm
>>when dealing with the opposition.They unnnecessarily draw weapons and get
>>into a fight on almost every little thing. They even manage to ruin full
>>adventures that I spend hours on creating in less then a minute.
><snip>
>
>I've got to agree with Sascha on this one. The key to solve this is
>opposition ! Give 'em a bloody nose every (!) time they get triggerhappy and
>they soon will spend more time and money at the doc than everywhere else.
>They should calm down soon enough just to survive.
>
>My group has similar problems right now : the mage gets shot down really
>badly at least twice every session and his player is bored most of the time
>(GM:"The two latinos you observe enter the bar. What do you do ?"
MAGE:"ok,
>I'm bleeding." :). This really is bad luck (NO, I really don't want this :)))
>and I have to come up with something to get him out of the line of fire if
>he wants to survive this adventure (it's a beginner character)!
>


combine the events above.... while your trigger happy crew is getting bloodied
(whether successful or receiving it) have the less combat-ready shaman/other
doing some sleek-footwork and getting the object/clue/noticing something helpful
in the midst of it all. sounds like those guys would make a great
distraction....






---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323
IPPA #A-0117
Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------
Message no. 14
From: westec@******.COM
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:44:40 -0600
>Nothing wrong with that. I've been doing the same for over 3 years now...
>With just one player you almost have to, I think.
>
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html




sigh...poor Gurth... only one player eh? ya need more mates chum...





---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323
IPPA #A-0117
Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------
Message no. 15
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:33:57 +0100
westec@******.COM said on 4 Jan 96...

> sigh...poor Gurth... only one player eh? ya need more mates chum...

I tend to think I have. Only trouble is, I've only ever seen a small
number of them face-to-face :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Will I still be waiting for somebody else to understand?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 16
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:22:48 +0100 (MET)
westec wrote:
[snip]
> combine the events above.... while your trigger happy crew is getting bloodied
> (whether successful or receiving it) have the less combat-ready shaman/other
> doing some sleek-footwork and getting the object/clue/noticing something
> helpful
> in the midst of it all. sounds like those guys would make a great
> distraction....
Not if you are unlucky enough to be called by Wolf or Dog or have otherwise
developed a strong loyality to your team. :-(

>From player's point, you can just urge 'em not to kill innocents ('Hey, they'
re not part of the prey. I do not kill for joy.') and force 'em if you can.

It's easier for GMs IMHO.

Sascha


--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
Message no. 17
From: h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au (Mad Hamish)
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:25:50 +1100
>>c) In my 16 years of gaming I have commonly seen GMs run characters in their
>>own games.
>
> very good note... I've seen several GMs play their own characters in the
games
>I've played in, and you don't have to worry about rescuing or helping that
>character,
>or just put them in the line of danger and it'll dissipate. sad but true...
>but I've
>also seen just as many run characters inside their campaigns with as much
>color and
>personality and calamity in their lives as the other players.
>
In an Earthdawn campaign I'm involved in there are 2 of the original
characters left. One is mine and one belongs to the GM. Now the real problem
is that my character has 450 000 legend points or so while his has well over
640 000 lp.
Now I was stuffed around by a couple of rule changes and also had to miss
about a month of play at the end of last year and a fair bit of the play
last summer due to a thesis and work respectively but still....
The other problem is that no matter what happens his character always is on
any sol adventure...


****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au
Message no. 18
From: ftmck@**.netcom.com (Frank McKinney )
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:09:08 -0800
You wrote:
>In an Earthdawn campaign I'm involved in there are 2 of the original
>characters left. One is mine and one belongs to the GM. Now the real
problem
>is that my character has 450 000 legend points or so while his has
well over
>640 000 lp.
>Now I was stuffed around by a couple of rule changes and also had to
miss
>about a month of play at the end of last year and a fair bit of the
play
>last summer due to a thesis and work respectively but still....
>The other problem is that no matter what happens his character always
is on
>any sol adventure...

>Mad Hamish
>
>Hamish Laws
>h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au
>
>
It sounds like your GM is desperately in need of playing and not GMing.
Frank
Message no. 19
From: "Rick L. Vinyard" <rvinyard@****.Edu>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:04:23 -0700 (MST)
As far as GM running characters, is it really different from having a
well developed NPC that pops in and out of the game as deemed necessary
by the GM. After all, the more developed NPC's are the better the
ambiance of the game. Why not develop a few arch villians or an aged
retired corp type to throw a few kinks in here or there or get things
back on track. Just call it thourough NPC development rather than the GM
running a character. Just keep in mind that these are NPC's to be used
when the PC's get out of hand.

In response to his original question, Shadowrun has a built in check for
trigger happy types. Lonestar. Take the trigger happy ones into a
slightly upscale area and see how quick Lonestar's response is, in
addition to how complete it is. You can then be a lenient or as rough as
you want. Take a few 'illegal' weapons away if they don't have permits.
Fine 'em a few nuyen. Strip some cyberware. Do whatever you think
necessary to head the game to a more appropriate level. On the other
hand, some groups just like hack 'n slash, so you may just forget about
everything I said and just put 'em up against a large Aztechnology strike
force, then Ares, Mitsuhama....


---Rick
Message no. 20
From: pbailey@***.ipswichcity.qld.gov.au (Peter Bailey)
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 23:23:45
Hi Gurth,

> westec@******.COM said on 4 Jan 96...
>
> > sigh...poor Gurth... only one player eh? ya need more mates chum...
>
> I tend to think I have. Only trouble is, I've only ever seen a small
> number of them face-to-face :)

Oh man, I wish you were here. I have 6 players in one group, another 4 in
another group and 3 more people interested in starting. I've just had to
tell them "Sorry, no. Find another GM." But even 6 players on the one team
makes for slow combats.

Cheers.
Message no. 21
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:42:40 GMT
Rick L. Vinyard writes

> As far as GM running characters, is it really different from having a
> well developed NPC that pops in and out of the game as deemed necessary
> by the GM. After all, the more developed NPC's are the better the
> ambiance of the game.
Yes. i have been managing to keep both good guys and bad guys alive
though the last seen several times opponent eventually got geeked,
still i'm awaiting the response to the party bounties list they
finally seem to think they need, including the corps they don't know
they annoyed :)
I try to make sure the hard NPC thats about keeps away from PC
combats most of the time, saves him overshadowing PC's and i really
don't want to get on the recieving end of what i know i can do to the
magic system with the guy. But fun and games still fun can be had.

> Why not develop a few arch villians or an aged
> retired corp type to throw a few kinks in here or there or get things
> back on track.
works.
> Just call it thourough NPC development rather than the GM
> running a character.
whcih can work but is a dangerous path if it goes wrong.


> In response to his original question, Shadowrun has a built in check for
> trigger happy types. Lonestar. Take the trigger happy ones into a
> slightly upscale area and see how quick Lonestar's response is, in
> addition to how complete it is.
Yes one quiet evening the rigger speeding, because he could, well
demo 1 sourcebook later the player tends to ask if i have it handy!,
ok the bill was under 10K but the lesson was well learnt and probably
better for the later smarts saving a 45K yen car.

> You can then be a lenient or as rough as
> you want. Take a few 'illegal' weapons away if they don't have permits.
I am recieving complaints, well, if the PC would walk into a corp
shopping mall with Frachi spas... Very lucky him his ID was good and
another player arrived to haul him out of the fire before they
discovered he had no sin.

> Fine 'em a few nuyen. Strip some cyberware. Do whatever you think
> necessary to head the game to a more appropriate level. On the other
> hand, some groups just like hack 'n slash, so you may just forget about
> everything I said and just put 'em up against a large Aztechnology strike
> force, then Ares, Mitsuhama....
>
You really going to need to get to Ares... Aztechnology should do,
take a look at the comments on thier maigcal security in awakenings
at that level its hopeless.

>
> ---Rick
>

Mark
Message no. 22
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk>
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:00:56 +0100 (MET)
On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Larry White (WPG) (Exchange) wrote:
> a) if a combat is unessential to the plot-line or the general enjoyment of
> the game you don't have to run it with a gazillion dice rolls. My favorite
> example of this is the troll who was bored listening to other characters
> question people and get on about solving the problem at hand. Player: "I go
> down the street and into the nearest bar". GM: "What's your intention.
> What's the general stuff you want your character to do over the next couple
> of hours". Player: "I want to pick a fight". GM: "Your
character picks a
> fight, wipes a lot of faces in the floor, and has a great time." Over and
> done in 30 seconds.

Pretty good idea. Also clarifies to the player that s/he better apply
internal resources to the plot at hand and roleplay along, rather
than wasting everyones time :)

> b) It is acceptable for the characters to totally defeat themselves in
> accomplishing their mission in the first 30 minutes of play. That's OKAY.
> You can wrap it up. GM: "You spend the next 8 days trying to find another
> clue, and finally, when trying to report failure back to the Mr. Johnson you
> discover through his answering service that he's been dead for 5 days. Zero
> money. Zero karma. Shall we play Monopoly?" Having a second run already
> prepared is a cool thing ... then you don't have to play monopoly. In the
> original example, the GM has several hours of work invested in a run which,
> with 20 minutes rework, can be made into a completely different run. In
> particular, the characters know NOTHING about stuff that's been designed and
> which they've not yet discovered.

I love you. Wanna marry?

--
Regards,

Silhouette


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS ENTIRE OPUS IS RESPECTFULLY DEDICATED TO
ALL THOSE WHO HAVE LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY
ONLY TO HAVE THEIR HEARTS UNANAESTHETICALLY
RIPPED OUT: BASE NOT YOUR JOY UPON THE DEEDS
OF OTHERS, FOR WHAT IS GIVEN CAN BE TAKEN AWAY.
NO HOPE = NO FEAR. - PETER, "BLOODY KISSES", TYPE 0 NEGATIVE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Helge Diernaes ecocide at hp3.econ.cbs.dk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: westec@******.COM (Neon Sihn)
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 23:57:16 -0600
>>characters left. One is mine and one belongs to the GM. Now the real
>problem
>>is that my character has 450 000 legend points or so while his has
>well over
>>640 000 lp.

>>
>It sounds like your GM is desperately in need of playing and not GMing.
>Frank
>


I've run my own character(s) in games, but I NEVER get more than the
players.... I always take what's left over usually, unless it's obviously in
character concept to want something in particular, and my players usually
already have that in mind.



>


---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323
IPPA #A-0117
Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------
Message no. 24
From: westec@******.COM (Neon Sihn)
Subject: Re: problems
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 23:57:17 -0600
>Oh man, I wish you were here. I have 6 players in one group, another 4 in
>another group and 3 more people interested in starting. I've just had to
>tell them "Sorry, no. Find another GM." But even 6 players on the one team
>makes for slow combats.
>



hehe... sounds a little like the "recreation center" in Korea. We had
anywhere from 8 minimum to 20 or so there to play. It got to be first
come first served unless it was a continuing adventure. ah.... those
were the days.





---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323
IPPA #A-0117
Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------
Message no. 25
From: nholmes@***.edu.au (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:32:48 +1000
>> a) if a combat is unessential to the plot-line or the general enjoyment of
>> the game you don't have to run it with a gazillion dice rolls. My favorite
>> example of this is the troll who was bored listening to other characters
>> question people and get on about solving the problem at hand. Player: "I go
>> down the street and into the nearest bar". GM: "What's your intention.
>> What's the general stuff you want your character to do over the next couple
>> of hours". Player: "I want to pick a fight". GM: "Your
character picks a
>> fight, wipes a lot of faces in the floor, and has a great time." Over and
>> done in 30 seconds.
>
>Pretty good idea. Also clarifies to the player that s/he better apply
>internal resources to the plot at hand and roleplay along, rather
>than wasting everyones time :)

Bear in mind, GMs, that anyone who does what the troll did is trying to say
something. Eg the decker with nothing to do... the rigger... there are too
many situations where GMs don't provide equal action for all players. The
sammies get to punch things and shoot things, the mages get to use their
combat spells and throw elementals and spirits around, but the deckers and
the riggers are still picking their fingernails. This sort of attention
getting is very often a sign of an imbalanced game - mind you, in the
example above, the troll (presumably a combat grunt and therefore usually
getting plenty to do) is probably just being an attention-grabber.

____
Lady Jestyr
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/ The Crypt!
Message no. 26
From: "Larry White (WPG) (Exchange)" <Larryw@********.MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:56:26 -0800
On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Helge Diernaes[ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk] wrote:

>I love you. Wanna marry?
> Silhouette

Been there. Done that.

Pen pal?
Perhaps.

Lets take this thread offline. ;-)
Message no. 27
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk>
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:52:43 +0100 (MET)
On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> Bear in mind, GMs, that anyone who does what the troll did is trying to say
> something. Eg the decker with nothing to do... the rigger... there are too
> many situations where GMs don't provide equal action for all players. The
> sammies get to punch things and shoot things, the mages get to use their
> combat spells and throw elementals and spirits around, but the deckers and
> the riggers are still picking their fingernails. This sort of attention
> getting is very often a sign of an imbalanced game - mind you, in the
> example above, the troll (presumably a combat grunt and therefore usually
> getting plenty to do) is probably just being an attention-grabber.

As I read the original posting, the Decker
were doing his/her work and the Troll went venting his/her boredom.
We are aware that Decking are disproportionally timeconsuming, which is
also why we have looked rather long for faster, smoother Decking mechanics.

But I must disagree with you as to this example of justified playerprotest.
My reading of your previous paragraph - maybe as the Devil reads the
Bible :) - results in a picture of egocentric people, who focuses only on
their own playing and takes no participation or joy in following the
playing of their fellow gamers. True, if some gamers have the table for 1.5+
hours straight, then things begins to sour and should have been avoided.
The trick I tend to use is applying the entire team to one bitch of a
job, that requires all talents and more. Isolated runners is seldom a
good idea, but I do not believe the whole responsibility to lies on the GM.
The players in my groups are welcome to give most excuses for uniting the
group without being blamed for bad roleplay, simply to facilitate the
presence of all PCs in the group when the show starts.
If some then aren't "agressive" enough to make their talents clear in the
group, then it is called personality prohibition and it will be up to
them to develop it.

BTW, don't take this as an accusation - we just have diverging
perceptions.

--
Regards,

Silhouette


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS ENTIRE OPUS IS RESPECTFULLY DEDICATED TO
ALL THOSE WHO HAVE LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY
ONLY TO HAVE THEIR HEARTS UNANAESTHETICALLY
RIPPED OUT: BASE NOT YOUR JOY UPON THE DEEDS
OF OTHERS, FOR WHAT IS GIVEN CAN BE TAKEN AWAY.
NO HOPE = NO FEAR.
- PETER, TYPE 0 NEGATIVE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Helge Diernaes | ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: westec@******.COM (Neon Sihn)
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 13:15:54 -0600
>Isolated runners is seldom a
>good idea, but I do not believe the whole responsibility to lies on the GM.

and don't forget to keep up with who knows what.... don't let the
players "ASSUME" they tell each other every detail, and don't let
your players just say, "I tell Mogren what I saw...". Make sure
your players actually verbally tell the other _characters_ what
they wanna say..... hehe you may be in for some interesting
interpretation of what you told that first player. :) and
boy do they love to embellish.

>The players in my groups are welcome to give most excuses for uniting the
>group without being blamed for bad roleplay, simply to facilitate the
>presence of all PCs in the group when the show starts.

same here.... if there are any player(s) who haven't been included
by the other player characters, I'll simply have an encounter to
bring them together. My players usually resolve this as "so-and-so
comes to mind, I think I'll call him...." and that takes care of that
wee obstacle.







---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323 IPPA #A-0117 Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------
Message no. 29
From: nholmes@***.edu.au (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: RE: problems
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:36:44 +1000
> Bear in mind, GMs, that anyone who does what the troll did is trying to say
>> something. Eg the decker with nothing to do... the rigger... there are too
>> many situations where GMs don't provide equal action for all players. The
>> sammies get to punch things and shoot things, the mages get to use their
>> combat spells and throw elementals and spirits around, but the deckers and
>> the riggers are still picking their fingernails. This sort of attention
>> getting is very often a sign of an imbalanced game - mind you, in the
>> example above, the troll (presumably a combat grunt and therefore usually
>> getting plenty to do) is probably just being an attention-grabber.
>
>As I read the original posting, the Decker
>were doing his/her work and the Troll went venting his/her boredom.
>We are aware that Decking are disproportionally timeconsuming, which is
>also why we have looked rather long for faster, smoother Decking mechanics.

Yes, that's understood, and my last sentence did point out the fact that I
understood that in this particular case the Troll was unjustified in
his/her/its behaviour. Not the point I was making.

>But I must disagree with you as to this example of justified playerprotest.
>My reading of your previous paragraph - maybe as the Devil reads the
>Bible :) - results in a picture of egocentric people, who focuses only on
>their own playing and takes no participation or joy in following the
>playing of their fellow gamers. True, if some gamers have the table for 1.5+
>hours straight, then things begins to sour and should have been avoided.

The main problem I have is with a couple of players, who are very good
roleplayers. Good, to the extent that they roleplay right over the rest of
us. One character which instantly comes to mind is the main party sam,
whose player is a good roleplayer and very extroverted to boot. This
character is now very very well developed - but the rest of us get nothing
to do, because he's already done it. This occurs in combat, and in
roleplaying/negotiating/detective situations.

>If some then aren't "agressive" enough to make their talents clear in the
>group, then it is called personality prohibition and it will be up to
>them to develop it.

yes, but it's not easy when you have one of the "less useful" characters
(ie deckers/riggers - no, i DON'T believe they're less useful than any
other, but so many GMs focus just on the massive hosedown at the end that
only one's combat skills get any workout) to accept twiddling your thumbs
for hours while the more exuberant players swamp you, only to feel
irrelevant at the final showdown (what a favourite GM device THAT is). Why
do you think no-one ever winds up playing deckers?

>BTW, don't take this as an accusation - we just have diverging
>perceptions.

Maybe you're luckier than me. Hey, in a perfect world, with selfless
players and well-balanced GMs, it wouldn't be a problem. Perhaps my playing
groups have been more flawed, I don't know.

Lady J (just my 0.02 sheckels' worth)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about problems, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!