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Message no. 1
From: Aewyn labsyn@*********.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:02:33 -0500
Having just re-read VR2.0, I've got a few questions about programming...

1-to determine the task period for the job, the decker must make a computer
test... am I the only one to think that the computer skill does a little to
much? I mean, it's one thing to be able to use a computer really well and
to be able to navigate the matrix with ease, it's another thing to write
long, complex programs... I've thought about making each programming
language a different skill... would it be a good idea?

2-What happens if a decker wants to innovate a bit and create an entirely
new kind of program?

3-What programs/tools/skills/tests would be necerssary to program games?
What about designing iconography and scultping systems?

Another question, totally unrelated to programming...

Would it be possible for a decker wants to trace another decker's jackpoint
(ie, to do that same thing that trace IC does)? How would that be done?


Thanks,
Aewyn.
Message no. 2
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:13:13 +1000
>1-to determine the task period for the job, the decker must make a computer
>test... am I the only one to think that the computer skill does a little to
>much? I mean, it's one thing to be able to use a computer really well and
>to be able to navigate the matrix with ease, it's another thing to write
>long, complex programs... I've thought about making each programming
>language a different skill... would it be a good idea?

No. (IMO.)

1. The system for computers is abstract enought that different programming
languages have NO impact on how it works. Unless you rewrite the whole
decking system, you can't really shoehorn this in.

2. Most deckers have little enough to do in the average game that
penalizing them further is unfair, IMO. Obviously, YMMV if you have a
decker-heavy game.

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 3
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:04:43 -0500
> Having just re-read VR2.0, I've got a few questions about programming...
>
> 1-to determine the task period for the job, the decker must make a
computer
> test... am I the only one to think that the computer skill does a little
to
> much? I mean, it's one thing to be able to use a computer really well and
> to be able to navigate the matrix with ease, it's another thing to write
> long, complex programs... I've thought about making each programming
> language a different skill... would it be a good idea?

Gotta agree with Jestyr on this one. You might, if you wnat, require
greater use of Knowledge skills, though the mechanics would be pretty
ad-hoc. Something along the lines of requiring a "progam design" skill
equal to a utilites rating, or a "cyberdeck design" skill with similar use.
VR1 had something like this, iirc. Its not like most deckers won't have
knowledge skills to spare...

> 2-What happens if a decker wants to innovate a bit and create an entirely
> new kind of program?

He goes to work for corporation, or gets his work stolen and a hole in
his head, maybe of the plastique stuffed, non bleeding variety if he's
lucky. :)
Seriously, theres just not any mechanics for it, unfortunately.

> 3-What programs/tools/skills/tests would be necerssary to program games?
> What about designing iconography and scultping systems?

I'd say both of those are creative skills that would allow computer as
complementary tests. Selling a game would be like selling other
entertainement; if you have Shadowbeat, go to town.

> Another question, totally unrelated to programming...
>
> Would it be possible for a decker wants to trace another decker's
jackpoint
> (ie, to do that same thing that trace IC does)? How would that be done?

Yes, there are rules for that in VR2.0; you use a special utility (a
"trace" utility, unsuprisingly). The process is rather like trace
"attack",
only using the deckers skill instead of the hosts. The program multiplier
(IIRC) is 5 or so. Those rules will likely also be in "The Matrix".

Mongoose
Message no. 4
From: Joseph Kerian jk1@*****.polarcomm.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:37:58 -0500
It hath been written:
>Having just re-read VR2.0, I've got a few questions about programming...
>
>1-<snip justification>
>I've thought about making each programming
>language a different skill... would it be a good idea?
I wouldn't split up each language (that gets too wierd). Also, once you
know one modern language you can pretty much pick up others. But I would
re-arrange a few things and split the computer skill into Matrix and
non-Matrix. You'll note that because these divisions pretty much obsolete
B/R's, deckers actually don't lose many skill points.
Computer:
Construction (Replaces B/R most of the time)
Applications (General comp skill for nonshadow work,almost a know skill)
Legacy Systems (more useful than you'd think)
Programming (Non-utility programming, this would be for games and such)
Matrix:
Matrix Administration (Anything where you're using mainframes,IC,etc)
Matrix Coding (This is where most programming is)
Decking (Matrix Hacking)
Data Mining (I'd use Etiquette(Matrix) as an aux skill to this)
Electronics:
Construction (Any construction of non-computers:rigger gear,maglocks)
Intrusion (Used instead of Elec B/R for breaking into maglocks)
Engineering (Something of a catch-all category, somewhat academic)
Transmitting Systems:(Anyone have a better name for this,theres gotta be one)
Jamming/MIJI (Used whenever possible-I know, it mostly depends on equip)
Electronic Monitoring Systems (Bugs, you get more range out of them)
Acoustics (Just for the heck of it)

>2-What happens if a decker wants to innovate a bit and create an entirely
>new kind of program?
Depends... Can you give more specifics?

>3-What programs/tools/skills/tests would be necerssary to program games?
>What about designing iconography and scultping systems?
It depends on what type of game you want, and what's it gonna run on? And
do you want to have some game mechanic that would compare MechWarrior3 to
C&C:TS to Quake to "Where in Whatever is Carman Sandiago"? If not, I'd ask
what they wanted to do, give it a difficulty number and treat it like a
normal util program. Keep in mind that most (but not all) modern games are
done by fairly large teams. If your decker wants to make a 3D version of
PONG, I'd say they'd be done in a few hours, if that long. If they want to
make a flight sim, it'll take about 6 months in one of my games. If you
want to be coldly realistic though, it'll take much longer.
I think there was a big descussion of making your own servers awhile back.
I ignored it for the most part though. Anyone have the dates?

>Another question, totally unrelated to programming...
>
>Would it be possible for a decker wants to trace another decker's jackpoint
>(ie, to do that same thing that trace IC does)? How would that be done?
I would say yes, I even think it's been done. (The Track utility?)
I never really liked the way it worked though, because realistically, it
would either be a heck of alot easier or a heck of alot more difficult. It
would be easier if it was possible to get a firm reading on what 'email
address' the icon was sending back information to, but if that was not
possible(for some wierd reason) then you'd need to go through the following
procedure.
1.Getting a firm reading on an icon.
Simply find icon with a Locate Decker Op.
2.Finding the dataline that connects to this icon.
Possible Mechanic: Target's Evasion(Track utility) =trace factor.
3.Following dataline back to the last access point between servers
Roll normal system operation, Decking(Index-trace factor)
Net result is the new trace factor.
4.Hacking into server in 3
Just like normal
5.Repeat starting from 2 until you've reached the jackpoint
6.Identifying jackpoint's relationship to the physical world
This would probably be an Analyze operation, depending on the jackpoint.

Joe Kerian
jk1@*********.com
Message no. 5
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:29:12 -0500 (CDT)
Yesterday, Aewyn spoke on Programming:

> 1-to determine the task period for the job, the decker must make a computer
> test... am I the only one to think that the computer skill does a little to
> much? I mean, it's one thing to be able to use a computer really well and
> to be able to navigate the matrix with ease, it's another thing to write
> long, complex programs... I've thought about making each programming
> language a different skill... would it be a good idea?

Programs in SR aren't build the way we build programs. And language has
very little to do with it. Even when programming, most of the time the
decker just *thinks* 'Hey parse that algebraic notation and convert it to
RPN.'

One other thing to think about is that a lot of what hacking deals with is
writing small programs or taking advantage or programming holes. Both are
intricately related to your ability to program. [Okay, maybe I shouldn't
say intricately.]

If you do use programming languages (which I suggest aginst) give the
languages bonuses for certain programs and minuses for others. [Like
HyperPerl is really easy to write a browse program in (-1 TN or +1 Task).
However, for all combat programs it tends to output bulky code (+30% final
code size, or just -1 Task (double time if task is already 1)).

> 2-What happens if a decker wants to innovate a bit and create an entirely
> new kind of program?

That is where background (computer) [SR3] or Computer Theory [SR1/2] come
in. Give them a high target number and a long time, espcially if it is
something wierd. Innovation only comes by sacrifice. [However, if they do
something cool give them 3-4 months before it gets to everybody... they
deserve it.]

> 3-What programs/tools/skills/tests would be necerssary to program games?
> What about designing iconography and scultping systems?

Games are just another program. However, they have a 'stylistic' part to
them. Assign the game a difficulty to program (the decker could decide
this) and then do standard type tests (give the Game a multiplier of 4 or
5). For each 2 successes the decker wants to take off his computer test,
he can get an extra di on the next test.

The next test is an open-ended 'coolness' factor test. Have the decker
roll some number of dice [I don't know what to link it to] plus the dice
he got from the programming test open-endedly. The number you get is the
program's coolness. The program can be sold at about coolness * difficulty
* 10 ny a pop.

There's a lot more RP ascpects to this, play it up it's a cool idea.

> Another question, totally unrelated to programming...
>
> Would it be possible for a decker wants to trace another decker's jackpoint
> (ie, to do that same thing that trace IC does)? How would that be done?

You said you read VR2.0 right (not the rules from SR3?) -- I belive there
is a 'Track' program that does just what you want.

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Programming
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:42:14 +0200
According to Aewyn, at 22:02 on 25 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> 1-to determine the task period for the job, the decker must make a computer
> test... am I the only one to think that the computer skill does a little to
> much? I mean, it's one thing to be able to use a computer really well and
> to be able to navigate the matrix with ease, it's another thing to write
> long, complex programs... I've thought about making each programming
> language a different skill... would it be a good idea?

I'm not really sure about this... Like Lady J. said, deckers already have
little enough to do (the only decker-player in our group has a night job
being the GM, for example ;) and this will make them even less useful
because they will have to spend skill points on skills that they won't
really use much. If you want to go through with the idea, I'd advise you
to make each language a Knowledge skill, and allow defaulting between
different languages at a +2 TN (i.e. they're in the same "box") rather
than +4.

> 2-What happens if a decker wants to innovate a bit and create an entirely
> new kind of program?

Then the GM decides the multiplier, and I think I would at least double
the time needed to write it.

> 3-What programs/tools/skills/tests would be necerssary to program games?

The same as for other programs.

> What about designing iconography and scultping systems?

I'd rule you need some artistic skills, and use an open test to see how
well you can make the graphics -- another use for Shadowbeat, this.

> Another question, totally unrelated to programming...
>
> Would it be possible for a decker wants to trace another decker's jackpoint
> (ie, to do that same thing that trace IC does)? How would that be done?

For that, the decker would use the Track utility described on pages 97-98
of VR 2.0 :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:44:28 EDT
In a message dated 9/26/99 00:30:07 Pacific Daylight Time,
datwinkdaddy@*******.com writes:

> The next test is an open-ended 'coolness' factor test. Have the decker
> roll some number of dice [I don't know what to link it to] plus the dice
> he got from the programming test open-endedly. The number you get is the
> program's coolness. The program can be sold at about coolness * difficulty
> * 10 ny a pop.

I'd make it an open end Charisma test myself, since charisma represents more
than just a persons looks, but also their personality, force of will, etc.
Its also the base for Impact test for both Pix and Concert tests from
shadowbeat, and I believe the same sort of thing would apply to making a
"Cool" game that everyone wants.
Message no. 8
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 00:26:48 -0700
On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:44:28 EDT Starrngr@***.com writes:
> In a message dated 9/26/99 00:30:07 Pacific Daylight Time,
> datwinkdaddy@*******.com writes:
>>The next test is an open-ended 'coolness' factor test. Have the decker
>>roll some number of dice [I don't know what to link it to] plus the
dice
>>he got from the programming test open-endedly. The number you get is
the
>>program's coolness. The program can be sold at about coolness *
difficulty
>>* 10 ny a pop.

>I'd make it an open end Charisma test myself, since charisma represents
more
>than just a persons looks, but also their personality, force of will,
etc.
>Its also the base for Impact test for both Pix and Concert tests from
>shadowbeat, and I believe the same sort of thing would apply to making a

>"Cool" game that everyone wants.

I would reccomend using other skills ... Ettiquette(insert primary market
here ... Street/Corporate/etc), Psychology, etc, and then default to
Charisma if the game designer (which is not necessarily the programer [+2
target number to test if not the programmer?].) does not have the above
skills or is not making a deliberate effort to shape the game for a
market. This can represent the designers intuitive feel for the market,
use of demographic research, or the likelyhood that a market will like
the same things that the designer likes. (If you keep track of the
actual roll [ie, not just the successes], you can apply modifiers for
each new market as the game makes it to that market. As opposed to
rolling for each market or somesuch mechanic.)

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 00:13:02 -0700
On Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:02:33 -0500 Aewyn <labsyn@*********.com> writes:
> Having just re-read VR2.0, I've got a few questions about
programming...
>
> 1-to determine the task period for the job, the decker must make a
computer
> test... am I the only one to think that the computer skill does a
little to
> much? I mean, it's one thing to be able to use a computer really well
and
> to be able to navigate the matrix with ease, it's another thing to
write
> long, complex programs... I've thought about making each programming
> language a different skill... would it be a good idea?

Lady J already pointed out why requiring seperate skills is a bad idea.
However, Mongoose gave me an idea... Make the maximum rating of a utility
with Optimization equal the Computer Background Knowledge skill or the
specialization Assembly. (The reasoning is that while, assembly may not
exist, per se, in 2060 an equivalent will.)

(If you're not familiar with assembly, it's bad ass but takes a hell of a
long time to code. I have no compunction in saying *ANY* program written
in assembly will run faster than in any other higher level language [ie,
BASIC, C, Fortran]. The catch is that the time required to create the
program increases exponentially with respect to the program's size. You
could whip a simple program in C or Pascal in a few minutes ... In
assembly a simple will take at least half an hour to an hour to write...
IF it assembles the first time ...)

> 2-What happens if a decker wants to innovate a bit and create an
entirely
> new kind of program?

His Player and/or GM (and/or ShadowRN listmembers) get innovative and
create an entirely new game mechanic? :)

> 3-What programs/tools/skills/tests would be necerssary to program
games?
> What about designing iconography and scultping systems?

Designing Matrix Iconography would be a specialization of an artistic
skill like Computer Graphics or something. Would that be an active or
Knowledge skill? The skill would just cover designing the icon.
Programming it in (or rather creating a program that uses it) requires
the Computer skill

Sculpted Systems Design could be it's own skill or a specialization of
Matrix Security. Designing the imagery would be another skill (Perhaps
Computer Graphics as above) and programming it in would fall under the
Computer skill.

(All IMO)

> Another question, totally unrelated to programming...
>
> Would it be possible for a decker wants to trace another decker's
jackpoint
> (ie, to do that same thing that trace IC does)? How would that be done?

With the Track Utility (page 97, VR 2.0)

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 10
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:48:13 -0400 (EDT)
Joseph Kerian wrote:
> I wouldn't split up each language (that gets too wierd). Also, once you
> know one modern language you can pretty much pick up others. But I would
> re-arrange a few things and split the computer skill into Matrix and
> non-Matrix. You'll note that because these divisions pretty much obsolete
> B/R's, deckers actually don't lose many skill points.
> Computer:
> Construction (Replaces B/R most of the time)
> Applications (General comp skill for nonshadow work,almost a know skill)
> Legacy Systems (more useful than you'd think)
> Programming (Non-utility programming, this would be for games and such)
> Matrix:
> Matrix Administration (Anything where you're using mainframes,IC,etc)
> Matrix Coding (This is where most programming is)
> Decking (Matrix Hacking)
> Data Mining (I'd use Etiquette(Matrix) as an aux skill to this)

Creating Construction specializations makes these skills different from
the rest, not a good thing for the game. Besides, hardware and software
are two rather different skill bases. I know plenty of hot-shot programmers
who can barely open the case on their computers.

Some of your listed specializations are covered with the Computer BG skill
and the rest by existing specicializations or new knowledge skills. Data
Mining isn't matrix-specific (assuming you mean real DM and not searching).

I'll admit I'd like to see more detail in the matrix rules, but I don't
think this is the way to go.
Message no. 11
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:55:12 -0400 (EDT)
Da Twink Daddy wrote:
>
> Yesterday, Aewyn spoke on Programming:
>
> > 1-to determine the task period for the job, the decker must make a computer
> > test... am I the only one to think that the computer skill does a little to
> > much? I mean, it's one thing to be able to use a computer really well and
> > to be able to navigate the matrix with ease, it's another thing to write
> > long, complex programs... I've thought about making each programming
> > language a different skill... would it be a good idea?
>
> Programs in SR aren't build the way we build programs. And language has
> very little to do with it. Even when programming, most of the time the
> decker just *thinks* 'Hey parse that algebraic notation and convert it to
> RPN.'
>
> One other thing to think about is that a lot of what hacking deals with is
> writing small programs or taking advantage or programming holes. Both are
> intricately related to your ability to program. [Okay, maybe I shouldn't
> say intricately.]

There's a direct correlation at least. You may also want to factor in
knowledge of the operating system. Hmm, an actual use for complementary
skills during decking.


> If you do use programming languages (which I suggest aginst) give the
> languages bonuses for certain programs and minuses for others. [Like
> HyperPerl is really easy to write a browse program in (-1 TN or +1 Task).
> However, for all combat programs it tends to output bulky code (+30% final
> code size, or just -1 Task (double time if task is already 1)).

Except the books suggest deckers already use a few different languages,
and would very likely learn all the major ones and code accordingly.
(If a character has Computer 6 you can probably assume he knows which
language is best for the job and will use it.)
If you used this rule, deckers would just use the language with the best
bonuses. Or make up a new language that gave them a bonus to the apps
they used the most.
Message no. 12
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:40:56 -0500 (CDT)
Today, Richard Tomasso spoke on Re: Programming:

> Except the books suggest deckers already use a few different languages,
> and would very likely learn all the major ones and code accordingly.
> (If a character has Computer 6 you can probably assume he knows which
> language is best for the job and will use it.)
> If you used this rule, deckers would just use the language with the best
> bonuses. Or make up a new language that gave them a bonus to the apps
> they used the most.

Okay, sure, you could assume they know the best language for the lob and
that they know hoe to programm it and all that. Or you could get colorful.
Maybe they can't find a freeware compiler for SoyBeans that runs on a
pimped out Sextuplet mark V, although it would be really nice because it
handles all the iconography for standard programs by itself (+1 Task
Bonus)

I kinda like the idea of a decker having 12 different progamming suites
and trying to min/max them. Knowing what to use for what youare trying to
accomplish isn't exactly easy. (I think is falls under Background
(Computer).)

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984
Message no. 13
From: credstic credstic@******.net
Subject: Programming
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:58:56 -0600
If I have a character who creates a program (hence then has the source
code), can he copy the program and then run the original and a copy of the
program? I haven't found anything to the contrary in the rules
Message no. 14
From: Mike and Jill Johnson shadowrn@******.net
Subject: Programming
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:13:53 -0600
At 04:58 PM 9/21/00 -0600, credstic wrote:
>If I have a character who creates a program (hence then has the source
>code), can he copy the program and then run the original and a copy of the
>program? I haven't found anything to the contrary in the rules
>

Maybe this needs a little more clarification. I'm the player in question
and would like to know if this is possible. Decker has a frame that he
programmed. Once on the matrix and in a host he uploads the frame and
starts giving it commands. Is it possible to upload another copy of the
same frame?

Mike
Message no. 15
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:05:47 -0500
From: "Mike and Jill Johnson" <shadowrn@******.net>
Subject: Re: Programming


> Maybe this needs a little more clarification. I'm the player in question
> and would like to know if this is possible. Decker has a frame that he
> programmed. Once on the matrix and in a host he uploads the frame and
> starts giving it commands. Is it possible to upload another copy of the
> same frame?

In my *PERSONAL* opinion, there is nothing that should be stopping this.
HOWEVER, the rules seem to imply in THE MATRIX that this is just not
possible. Don't ask me why if its a Smart Frame, and supposedly independent
of the cyberdeck/terminal that launched it, that this might be so.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 16
From: Mike and Jill Johnson shadowrn@******.net
Subject: Programming
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:13:21 -0600
At 04:05 PM 9/27/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>In my *PERSONAL* opinion, there is nothing that should be stopping this.
>HOWEVER, the rules seem to imply in THE MATRIX that this is just not
>possible. Don't ask me why if its a Smart Frame, and supposedly independent
>of the cyberdeck/terminal that launched it, that this might be so.
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
>Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
>

May I ask where in the Matrix is says this? I have been scouring the book
and haven't even been able to find anything that even hints that way. I
agree with you on this that there shouldn't be a reason that you couldn't.

Mike Johnson
Message no. 17
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:31:58 -0500
From: "Mike and Jill Johnson" <shadowrn@******.net>
Subject: Re: Programming


> May I ask where in the Matrix is says this? I have been scouring the book
> and haven't even been able to find anything that even hints that way. I
> agree with you on this that there shouldn't be a reason that you couldn't.

Gosh Mike, I really don't recall clearly. I know I remember seeing it in
the draft someplace, and the argument did come up somewhere else as well.
If Ken/Tzeentch sees this, maybe he'll toss a remark into here. On the
flipside, *IF* the rule is not in the book, then hey, THE MATRIX supercedes
all the other preceding material... right? <insert wicked grin here>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)

Further Reading

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