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Message no. 1
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Programming Languages
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 14:15:19 -0700
And interesting idea that could use some more work. Now for a few comments.

>>Just some generic ideas (building on sort of what I proposed late last ngiht):

>>STANDARD: Standard language that everyone programs in. Produces normal,
>> uninteresting programs.

Basic 2054!!!!!

>>MUNCHKIN: Programs written in munchkin tend to be smaller than
>> standard programs. Reduce size by (comp. theory x5) percent.

This isn't Munchkin, this is QuickBasic 2054.

>>VOOP: Virtual Object Orient Programming. VOOP programs are very
>> easy to write (compared to standard). Persons writing in VOOP
>> can produce programs two ratings better than normal. For
>> example, someone can produce a FUBAR:6 at a cost in time of a
>> FUBAR:4. Size is equal to the size the actual program + 10%

VOOP, I like it.

>>BUDDY: Programs written in buddy are very network friendly.
>> Reduce overall load rating by (comp. theory x5) percent.

I could like a language like this.

>>GUERRILLA: Programs written in guerrilla tend to be very stealthy.
>> Tests to execute these programs are reduced by 50%.
>> Highly illegal.

This isn't Guerulla. This is Munchkin! It also should not be allowed. It is
just WAY TOO ABUSIVE!

>>SCHIZO: This language will allow a person to combine the effects of
>> two different languages into one program.

This should be munchkin once we elminate guerrilla.

Also, I think that there should be a distinct disadvatange for writing in any
language other than Standard.

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
Message no. 2
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Programming Languages
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 16:20:43 -0500
On Wed, 21 Jul 1993, Jason Carter, Nightstalker wrote:

> >>MUNCHKIN: Programs written in munchkin tend to be smaller than
> >> standard programs. Reduce size by (comp. theory x5) percent.
>
> This isn't Munchkin, this is QuickBasic 2054.

Heh, I was thinking Munchkin in the sense of The Wizard of Oz :-)

> >>GUERRILLA: Programs written in guerrilla tend to be very stealthy.
> >> Tests to execute these programs are reduced by 50%.
> >> Highly illegal.
>
> This isn't Guerulla. This is Munchkin! It also should not be allowed. It is
> just WAY TOO ABUSIVE!

Ack, so many excliamation points.

It was just a thought, sheesh :-)

This is essentially the black market decker language. Designed to make
decking easier from the ground up.

As for the modifier, it was the first one that snuck into my head, and of
course is open to discussion or change. But you get the idea.

> Also, I think that there should be a distinct disadvatange for writing in any
> language other than Standard.

Of course, I was just throwing up ideas, though.

Diad. possibilities:
High Costs of other languages (rating x =Y=)
Slow Compile times
Legal Problems


{[> Robert A. Hayden ____ hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu <]}
{[> \ /__ hayden@****.cs.mankato.msus.edu <]}
{[> \/ / aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu <]}
{[> #include <std_disclaimer.h> \/ <]}
-=-=-
GEEK CODE v1.0.1: GSS d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Random Thought:

Why is Gerald Ratner so successful? In just six years the Englishman has
parlayed a two-karat family business into the world's largest jewelry
retailer, with 1,000 stores in the U.S. (under the names Kay and Sterling)
and an equal number in Britain. In a speech last week at London's Albert
Hall before the annual convention of the prestigious Institute of Directors,
Ratner, 41, offered a four-point program for becoming a multimillionaire.

Rule No. 1: Understand your market. His stores, he says, sell "cheap and
tacky products." Rule No. 2: Form clear quality goals. "We also do cut-glass
sherry decanters complete with six glasses on a silver-plated tray -- that
your butler can serve you drinks on -- all for 4.95 [$8.73]. People say,
`How can you sell this for such a low price?' I say because it is total
crap." Rule No. 3: Evaluate how your products stacks up against all the
competition. "We even sell a pair of earrings for under 1 [$1.76], which
is cheaper than a prawn sandwich from Marks and Spencer. But I have to say
the earrings probably won't last as long." Oh, yes, and Rule No. 4: Don't
write your own speeches.
-- Time magazine, May 6, 1991
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 3
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:42:31 EST
Ok..WHAT is the SR equivalent of C++? Got assigned this query by my teacher
when he caught me reading Matrix in class on Friday.
Message no. 4
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:40:47 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>

> Ok..WHAT is the SR equivalent of C++? Got assigned this query by my
teacher
> when he caught me reading Matrix in class on Friday.

LOL!
Message no. 5
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:57:25 -0600
From: DemonPenta@***.com
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 2:54 PM

> Ok..WHAT is the SR equivalent of C++? Got assigned this query
> by my teacher when he caught me reading Matrix in class on Friday.

There *is* a whole section on programming languages in there somewhere, DP.
You knew that, didn't you?

--
Patrick Goodman
"We say atoms are bound by weak attractors. Why not admit the truth: The
universe is held together by love."
-- Michio Von Kerr, Wayist Physicist
(from GENE RODDENBERRY'S ANDROMEDA)
Message no. 6
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 14:06:53 -0700
At 14:57 03/12/2000 -0600, Patrick Goodman wrote:

>> Ok..WHAT is the SR equivalent of C++? Got assigned this query
>> by my teacher when he caught me reading Matrix in class on Friday.
>
>There *is* a whole section on programming languages in there somewhere, DP.
>You knew that, didn't you?

It doesn't list C or C++, though. My guess would be Paolo left them out due
to his distaste in them.. (You'll note that there's no Perl equivalent,
either ;) )

Adam
--
< http://tss.dumpshock.com : http://www.jillted.org >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 7
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:06:25 EST
In a message dated 12/3/00 3:59:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pgoodman13@************.com writes:

> There *is* a whole section on programming languages in there somewhere, DP.
> You knew that, didn't you?
Yeah. Twas what I was reading. However, I have to find a close canon
equivalent to C++.
Message no. 8
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:08:56 EST
In a message dated 12/3/00 4:08:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
adamj@*********.com writes:

> It doesn't list C or C++, though. My guess would be Paolo left them out due
> to his distaste in them.. (You'll note that there's no Perl equivalent,
> either ;) )

Grr. But C++ is nummy and useful and fun...
Message no. 9
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 14:17:19 -0700
At 16:08 03/12/2000 -0500, DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 12/3/00 4:08:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>adamj@*********.com writes:
>
>> It doesn't list C or C++, though. My guess would be Paolo left them out
due
>> to his distaste in them.. (You'll note that there's no Perl equivalent,
>> either ;) )
>
>Grr. But C++ is nummy and useful and fun...

So C++ exists in your games, and it's nummy and useful and fun. Problem? ;)

Adam
--
< http://tss.dumpshock.com : http://www.jillted.org >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 10
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:21:29 EST
In a message dated 12/3/00 4:15:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
adamj@*********.com writes:

> So C++ exists in your games, and it's nummy and useful and fun. Problem? ;)
>

Yeah, but the teacher wants a canon ref...oh, screw it. I'll use the GM's law.
Message no. 11
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 14:25:16 -0700
At 16:21 03/12/2000 -0500, DemonPenta@***.com wrote:

>> So C++ exists in your games, and it's nummy and useful and fun. Problem? ;)
>
>Yeah, but the teacher wants a canon ref...oh, screw it. I'll use the GM's
law.

It doesn't exist in canon; blame it on the Crash of 2029.

Adam
--
< http://tss.dumpshock.com : http://www.jillted.org >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 12
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:26:02 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>

> > So C++ exists in your games, and it's nummy and useful and fun. Problem?
;)
> >
>
> Yeah, but the teacher wants a canon ref...oh, screw it. I'll use the GM's
law.

Your teacher is a gamer, isn't he/she? ;-)
Message no. 13
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:43:21 EST
In a message dated 12/3/00 4:31:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.net writes:

> Your teacher is a gamer, isn't he/she? ;-)

I doubt it.
Message no. 14
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:33:28 -0600
: >> Ok..WHAT is the SR equivalent of C++? Got assigned this query
: >> by my teacher when he caught me reading Matrix in class on Friday.
: >
: >There *is* a whole section on programming languages in there somewhere,
DP.
: >You knew that, didn't you?
:
:It doesn't list C or C++, though. My guess would be Paolo left them out due
:to his distaste in them.. (You'll note that there's no Perl equivalent,
:either ;) )
:
:Adam

Just how do you decide one fictitious language that is used in
programming for an entirely diffrent "generation" of computing hardware is
"equivalent"?
Given the history of Shadowrun namming conventions, I'd tell the prof it
was "D+++".

-Mongoose
Message no. 15
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 19:08:18 -0500
Sebastian Wiers wrote:
>
> : >> Ok..WHAT is the SR equivalent of C++? Got assigned this query
> : >> by my teacher when he caught me reading Matrix in class on Friday.

> Given the history of Shadowrun namming conventions, I'd tell the prof it
> was "D+++".

I wouldn't say that, it just may end up being given back as a grade on
some paper... I'd say A+++.

--
Iridios
--
Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart
body.

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.nbci.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
7:03:51 PM/202:00:04 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 16
From: GSW13 darklordsatin@*******.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 20:55:17 -0500
I would say that the 2060's version of C/C++ is C/C++. There is no reason
why they would not still be using C/C++. Admittedly I am sure that they have
new function libraries for writing Matrix Programs but the language wouldn't
change. I mean what did they do when windows came out? Did they scrap C/C++
for a new language to accomadate windows? No, they just added stuff like
windows.lib to improve the language. Ten to one says they have better
compilers, libraries, etc. but I don't see any need to change the language.

/*----------------------------------------------------------------
GSW13, George, Mr. Peabody, DL (Darklord) Satin, The God of Nothing,
CybrWyrm, Prince of Non-Sequitors, Keeper of Osigwad, President: Society of
Non-Violent Anarchists for a better America, Co-Founder: Danorgeian
Preformational Party, Waxman, The Virus, Bard of Osigwad, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------*/

----- Original Message -----
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 03:42 PM
Subject: Programming Languages...


> Ok..WHAT is the SR equivalent of C++? Got assigned this query by my
teacher
> when he caught me reading Matrix in class on Friday.
>
>
>
Message no. 17
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 00:49:41 GMT
On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 20:55:17 -0500
"GSW13" <darklordsatin@*******.com> wrote:

> I would say that the 2060's version of C/C++ is C/C++. There is no reason
> why they would not still be using C/C++. Admittedly I am sure that they have
> new function libraries for writing Matrix Programs but the language wouldn't
> change. I mean what did they do when windows came out? Did they scrap C/C++
> for a new language to accomadate windows? No, they just added stuff like
> windows.lib to improve the language. Ten to one says they have better
> compilers, libraries, etc. but I don't see any need to change the language.

But the feeling I get from reading the book is that the very
nature of computers and programs had to be change in order to avoid
another Crash. No virus would get that far unless it attacked the very
roots of computing, the basis its workings.

And the arrival of Windows wasn't such a big change; under all
the fancy wallpapers, computers work pretty much the same way. It
wouldn't do just to add a few libraries to C++, the impression I get
>from the books is that Matrix programming (or programming of anything
else that involves neural interface) would require something far more
exotic than a few (million) lines of text.

I remember reading in VR2.0 that passcodes in the Matrix could
involve the five senses (smells, movement, sounds). Programming could
also benefit from this, and perhaps even emotion...

I do think it sounds more interesting that way :).


Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 18
From: Pepe Barbe a19960615@****.edu.pe
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 21:40:22 -0500
At 03:42 p.m. 03/12/00, DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>Ok..WHAT is the SR equivalent of C++? Got assigned this query by my teacher
>when he caught me reading Matrix in class on Friday.

I'd say, given the fact that everything is visual in those times, the
succesor of C/C++ would be: (Tridimensional Object)/(Tridimensional
Object)++. What object? Cube? Who knows ... Maybe some Mathematical 3D
object that is really appealing visually or maybe that has some strange
property discovered by some genious mathematician.

Pepe
Message no. 19
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:51:19 -0500
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
Subject: Re: Programming Languages...


> > So C++ exists in your games, and it's nummy and useful and fun. Problem?
;)
> >
> Yeah, but the teacher wants a canon ref...oh, screw it. I'll use the GM's
law.

Actually... the only languages i could remember ever seeing were HoloLISP,
InterMod, MATCom, and Oblong. Now for some reason, I seem to remember
reading about a language that is actually named "oblong"... but I could also
be thinking of a compiler program. Given the variations of things *might*
mean, and compared to the abbreviations of what we have for mainstay
languages today/currently... I'd almost want to argue "MATCom" is the
2060ish version of C++.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")
THREEH.COM (www.threeh.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 20
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:46:00 EST
In a message dated 12/3/00 11:48:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
neojudas@******************.com writes:

> Actually... the only languages i could remember ever seeing were HoloLISP,
> InterMod, MATCom, and Oblong. Now for some reason, I seem to remember
> reading about a language that is actually named "oblong"... but I could
also
> be thinking of a compiler program. Given the variations of things *might*
> mean, and compared to the abbreviations of what we have for mainstay
> languages today/currently... I'd almost want to argue "MATCom" is the
> 2060ish version of C++.

Then what are the rest?
Message no. 21
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:47:29 +1100 (EST)
NeoJudas writes:

> Actually... the only languages i could remember ever seeing were HoloLISP,
> InterMod, MATCom, and Oblong. Now for some reason, I seem to remember
> reading about a language that is actually named "oblong"... but I could
also
> be thinking of a compiler program. Given the variations of things *might*
> mean, and compared to the abbreviations of what we have for mainstay
> languages today/currently... I'd almost want to argue "MATCom" is the
> 2060ish version of C++.

I recall seeing "Q" listed as a programming language somewhere once. I
think that it might have been in an adventure, but I'm not sure which one
(likely one where the characters find some type of source code as a clue,
obviously).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a24 C++ US++>+++ P+ L++>+++ E- W+>++ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@
M-- V- PS+ PE(-) Y+>++ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X++>+++ R+(++) !tv(--) b+ DI+++@
D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 22
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 05:24:30 EST
In a message dated 12/5/00 10:48:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dam01@***.edu.au writes:

> I recall seeing "Q" listed as a programming language somewhere once. I
> think that it might have been in an adventure, but I'm not sure which one
> (likely one where the characters find some type of source code as a clue,
> obviously).

Q? Wow. We went from A, to B (internal w/in Bell Labs, but generally
nice-to-play-with langs for their time), to C/C++...to Q? Wow. Who skipped
the alphabet?:-)
Message no. 23
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:41:45 +0100
According to DemonPenta@***.com, on Wed, 06 Dec 2000 the word on the
street was...

> Q? Wow. We went from A, to B (internal w/in Bell Labs, but generally
> nice-to-play-with langs for their time), to C/C++...to Q? Wow. Who skipped
> the alphabet?:-)

It was probably a bunch of Trekkies who developed a language that is
highly irritating to work with but which can do almost anything you want it
to :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 01:50:34 GMT
> > I recall seeing "Q" listed as a programming language somewhere once.
I
> > think that it might have been in an adventure, but I'm not sure which one
> > (likely one where the characters find some type of source code as a clue,
> > obviously).
>
> Q? Wow. We went from A, to B (internal w/in Bell Labs, but generally
> nice-to-play-with langs for their time), to C/C++...to Q? Wow. Who skipped
> the alphabet?:-)
>

Well, people had 60 years to go through all those letters... :).


>

Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 25
From: Ryan "uR|Uller" Myers rmyers@**.edu
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:40:53 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: Programming Languages...


> According to DemonPenta@***.com, on Wed, 06 Dec 2000 the word on the
> street was...
>
> > Q? Wow. We went from A, to B (internal w/in Bell Labs, but generally
> > nice-to-play-with langs for their time), to C/C++...to Q? Wow. Who
skipped
> > the alphabet?:-)
>
> It was probably a bunch of Trekkies who developed a language that is
> highly irritating to work with but which can do almost anything you want
it
> to :)

Ever played with Haskell, Gurth? >:) It's generally considered the most
developed of the functional languages today, including SQL and Win32 API
hooks, file IO using monads, the whole shebang. Usable once you can get
yourself into functional thinking, but what a bitch to do.

For those who aren't masochists or academics, a functional language is a
language with no concept of memory or variables; everything is done in terms
of functions and sets, and functions can be passed to, modified, altered,
spindled, mutilated, and etc by other functions. The interesting bit is
that this allows intelligent compilers to evaluate arguments in arbitrary
orders and cache return values, which makes IO interesting. I picked it up
in a seminar class, my final project was writing a small console board game
with ASCII art graphics and a complete decent AI... try writing an AI in a
language with no concept of memory :P

-Ryan "uR|Uller" Myers <borisian@***********.com>

An infinite number of monkeys, given an infinite amount of time, will
produce the collected works of Shakespeare. John Romero's Daikatana was a
five minute, ten monkey job.
Message no. 26
From: Spike spike1@*******.co.uk
Subject: Programming Languages...
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:50:13 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, didst Bira babble thusly...
>
> > > I recall seeing "Q" listed as a programming language somewhere
once. I
> > > think that it might have been in an adventure, but I'm not sure which one
> > > (likely one where the characters find some type of source code as a clue,
> > > obviously).
> >
> > Q? Wow. We went from A, to B (internal w/in Bell Labs, but generally
> > nice-to-play-with langs for their time), to C/C++...to Q? Wow. Who skipped
> > the alphabet?:-)
> >
>
> Well, people had 60 years to go through all those letters... :).

Besides... It didn't go A > B > C > C++
It went BCPL > B > C > C++

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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