Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	PROGRAMMING TIMES: VR2 vs Matrix. Also known as "otaku are karma whores"
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:45:57 -0700

Message no. 1 Myself and Mael were going over the programming times compared between VR2
and Matrix. I'm afraid even with the base time changed to Size in Mp that in
most cases it will take LESS time to program using the VR2 rules. Heres an
edited log of our conversation. You can also check out Maels post on
Dumpshock - http://forums.dumpshock.com//Forum16/HTML/000013.html#2

We also discuss some ways to crunch the system if you're a munchkin and want
to get the least base times you can...

<Tzeentch> How about something simple. Like an baseline
Attack-4S program
* Maelwys nods.
<Maelwys> What type of programming tools?
<Tzeentch> Lets try it without then first
* Maelwys nods.
<Maelwys> Average Computer skill of 6?
<Tzeentch> Lesse, Multiplier 4, Rating 4. 64Mp base. 64 base
days to program. Program Plan takes (4x4) 16 hours and 6Mp
<Tzeentch> Yeah Computer-6 would be "average"
*** Maelwys` is now known as MaelDice
<MaelDice> Just incase we want to use the same dice :)
<Maelwys> Multipler 4, Rating 4. 64 Base, 128 Days to
program.
<Maelwys> 6d6 4
<MaelDice> Maelwys: 6 [ 1 2 4 4 4 10 ] 4 successes
<Tzeentch> Program Plan TN is 3
<Tzeentch> Since its a Rating 1-4 program... (p. 79)
* Maelwys nods. "Mine was for VR2 programming, and with the 4
successes...takes 32 days.
<Tzeentch> Well assume Rating 6 in the appropriate Program
Design Knowledge skill. So roll 6 vs TN 3
<Tzeentch> 6d6 3
<Maelwys> 42 days with 3 successes
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 3 4 9 9 11 ] 5 successes
<Tzeentch> Holy crap...
<Maelwys> heh.
<Tzeentch> 6d6 2
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 1 1 2 11 16 ] 3 successes
<Tzeentch> 21 days to program
<Tzeentch> The TN was a 2 BTW :) -1 actually but 2 is the minimum hehe
<Maelwys> 21 days+16 hoursfor the program plan
<Maelwys> so 21.4 days total, compared to 32-42 for VR2
<Tzeentch> Well I think the differences get higher with
better ratings.
<Maelwys> The Program Design Knowledge skills...they'e actual Knowledge
skills, not Active skills, right?
<Tzeentch> Knowledge skills yes.
<Maelwys> Want to try a higher program?
<Tzeentch> Yeah. Hmm
<Tzeentch> Rating 10 something ;)
<Tzeentch> Rating 10 Killjoy ;)
<Maelwys> heh
* Tzeentch notices they still didn't fix the fact Lethal IC is easier to
program then Black Hammer
* Maelwys smirks
* Maelwys likes the fact that they included how to program IC, but you still
don't have a place to run it :)
<Tzeentch> Well the chapter with Host rules was cut
<Tzeentch> Another thing to bug Mike on
* Maelwys nods.
<Maelwys> 6d6 10
<MaelDice> Maelwys: 6 [ 1 1 2 3 4 4 ] 0 successes
<Tzeentch> Ok, Killjoy-10.
<Maelwys> Base time, 2,000 days here :)
<Tzeentch> 1,000 base days to program (!!)
<Tzeentch> hahah
<Tzeentch> Gee I have 3 years to spend
<Maelwys> 6 here.
<Maelwys> 500d6 a
<MaelDice> Maelwys: 500 [ ] average is 3.49108
<Tzeentch> Program Plan is 100 hours to make and 100Mp
<Tzeentch> 6d6 4
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 1 2 3 3 10 ] 1 successes
<Tzeentch> This dice bot is damn handy
<Tzeentch> 1 success hehe
<Tzeentch> 6d6 9
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 1 1 2 3 5 ] 0 successes
<Tzeentch> doh!
<Maelwys> heh.
<Tzeentch> Programming a Rating 0 Killjoy takes 1,004 days and some change
<Tzeentch> lol
* Maelwys nods
<Maelwys> 6d6 10
<MaelDice> Maelwys: 6 [ 1 2 2 4 7 9 ] 0 successes
<Maelwys> heh, my guy doesn't even make it...
<Tzeentch> lol
<Maelwys> and it would be 2000 days :)
<Maelwys> hmm.
<Tzeentch> OK programming teams suck!
* Maelwys nods.
<Maelwys> So the Attack 4S is done about 10-20 days quicker if you work with
a task of 1 day work = 1 day programming. Still about the same with a +1
Task bonus, and even faster with higher task bonuses in VR2...
<Tzeentch> Whoo I have no idea where the team is getting the 2 complimentary
dice in the example from
<Maelwys> so VR2 is better for the lower level programs...
<Tzeentch> A task period is 8 hours in Matrix
<Tzeentch> Well the TN modifiers really add up I should note. If I had a
2,000 Mp computer the TN would have dropped to 7
<Tzeentch> 6d6 7
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 1 1 3 4 11 ] 1 successes
<Tzeentch> Pfft
<Tzeentch> Ok it would still suck
<Maelwys> heh.
<Maelwys> Sometimes the dice suck :)
<Tzeentch> Those damn task bonuses were really helpful
* Maelwys nods.
<Tzeentch> I think programming times are even more screwed in Matrix then
they were in VR2
<Maelwys> heh.
<Tzeentch> Ok with a Rating 10 programming suite, 2,000Mp compuer on a Red
host mainframe my TN would be 5, with 0 successes for the program plan and
I get 10 complimentary dice
<Maelwys> They seem to be coming out the same, if not longer, especially at
the lower levels.
<Tzeentch> 6d6 5
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 1 3 5 5 11 ] 3 successes
<Tzeentch> 10d6 5
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 10 [ 1 1 1 1 1 2 4 5 7 17 ] 3 successes
<Tzeentch> So 1 complimentary addition. 4 successes. So "only" 250 days
<Tzeentch> That is still WAY ridiculous
<Tzeentch> And thats with some MAJOR ass nuyen thrown at it. things actually
get WORSE if you use a programming team!!
<Tzeentch> Programming teams must use the Three Stooges method of
programming
<Maelwys> heh
* Maelwys notes that at lower levels, you are better off in VR2 with task
bonuses, since you can get your TN's only so low in Matrix.
<Tzeentch> Down to 2 max.
* Maelwys nods.
<Tzeentch> I wonder who the hell is programming this software then. Even
with Computer 10 you can only do so much
<Tzeentch> Lets look at a REAL nasty proggie. Lethal Black IC (Multiplier
16)
<Tzeentch> Lesse, whats a rating from the books.. lets say 8
<Tzeentch> the chart doesnt even go that high heheh
<Maelwys> heh, what page you on?
<Tzeentch> Chart on p. 165
<Tzeentch> 1,024Mp for a Rating 8 Lethal IC program
<Tzeentch> Note that that is doable for a starting character
<Tzeentch> Lesse with just a program plan thats 128 hours and 102Mp to
produce.
<Tzeentch> With nothing else lesse...
<Tzeentch> 6d6 4
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 3 5 5 7 11 ] 4 successes
<Tzeentch> 6d6 4
<MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 2 2 5 8 11 ] 3 successes
<Tzeentch> 341 days
<Tzeentch> Well at least its job security!
<Maelwys> Heh...and with the programming team rules, it makes you wonder how
corps keep up with deckers :)
<Tzeentch> lol
<Tzeentch> You know, looking at the programming team rules. WTF is the point
of them?
<Tzeentch> they just drag you down if you have even *1* guy of a lower skill
<Tzeentch> And you use the AVERAGE skill so whats the point?
<Maelwys> heh. The only point is split up the time.
<Maelwys> Say the program would take one person 300 days to write, like the
Lethal Black IC we just did.
<Maelwys> with 4 people, it would take a total of 75 days.
<Tzeentch> That's lame
<Maelwys> As far as I can tell, that's the only point.
<Tzeentch> What about splitting it up AFTER you've started on it though.
<Tzeentch> How do companies work if 999 days into the 1000 day task the
programmer leaves or wants more money?
<Tzeentch> According to the rules they are screwed
<Maelwys> ?
<Tzeentch> Noone can do that last day of programming
<Maelwys> eh...theoretically.
<Tzeentch> If they could then whats the point of programming teams? Just
start the task and let other people work on it
<Maelwys> hmm.
* Maelwys had a reason, thought about it, then realized it wasn't much of a
reason.
<Tzeentch> Well as far as it goes I think the times are actually fairly
similar taking task bonuses into account. Except a shitty roll in Matrix is
FAR worse then in VR2 because task bonuses even it out
* Maelwys nods.
<Tzeentch> Hmm
<Tzeentch> Even a shitty Rating 6, Mult 6 program take almost a freakin year
to program
<Tzeentch> Hmm.
<Maelwys> Base time, yeah...
* Maelwys notes you HAVE to blow your money on the bonuses in Matrix.
<Tzeentch> With Lesse 3 team members (remember MAX # of team members is 5 no
matter what) all with Comp 6 they must work a minimum of 85 days on the
program (assuming the previous 341 day).
<Maelwys> 3 months of work each, 8 hours a day.
<Tzeentch> that seems steep
* Maelwys shakes his head. "Ouch."
<Tzeentch> I think the biggest problem is the fucking limit on the number of
team members.
<Tzeentch> What gayass restriction is 5 members no matter WHAT?
<Tzeentch> I say house rule that to no more then the highest Leadership in
the group
<Maelwys> Where are you getting the 5 member restriction?
<Tzeentch> p. 80. the maximum size of the team equals the half the Computer
(Programming) skill of the member with the highest skill
<Tzeentch> Since 10 is the best youcan get the limit is 5
* Maelwys grins. "How do you figure 10 is the highest skill level you can
get?"
<Tzeentch> And you better hope everyone on the team has 10 for programming
or you're screwed
<Tzeentch> Even with Rating 10 in Computer, concentration in Programming you
are still only at 11
<Tzeentch> To get above 10 in Programming will cost you so much karma I
don't even want to think about it
<Maelwys> heh
<Tzeentch> So for pretty much any conceivable situation the limit is 5
people
<Maelwys> um...
* Maelwys hmms.
<Maelwys> Skill improvement cost table.
<Maelwys> Specialization. Skill is less than or equal to (2x att).
<Tzeentch> Ok, assume INT 6
<Maelwys> Figure...Intel 6...programming 11 to 12 is only 12 Karma...
<Maelwys> Not that hard to raise it...
<Tzeentch> Uhm getting to the 11 is the hard part. Best you can start with
is Computer(Programming) 5/7
<Maelwys> cost you about 40 Karma to get up that high.
<Maelwys> well, up to 10 at least, but I agree...it is alot of Karma.
<Tzeentch> Did you remember to increase the Base Skill since the
specialization can't be over 2x the base?
<Tzeentch> Well in any case unless you munch things with the Mnemonic
Enhancer its steep
<Maelwys> Good point.
* Maelwys nods.
<Tzeentch> That reminds me, gotta look at the Mnemonic enchancer...
<Maelwys> hmm.
<Maelwys> Only thing that would help us here is level 3. +1 to to all
knowledge skill tests, which I assume would help with the programming plan.
* Maelwys GAHS at how hard the mnemonic enhancer was to find.
<Tzeentch> P. 72, its hidden
<Maelwys> yeah. No index, and the toc isn't that specific...first I had to
remember what type of ware it was, then flip through.
<Tzeentch> Ooh, errata possibly.. p. 73 it just says the karma cost for
SKILLs is reduced. Not just Knowledge I guess
<Tzeentch> Thats NASTY in the long run
<Maelwys> Been discussed before, IIRC.
* Maelwys seems to recall it was discussed on the old boards.
* Maelwys tries to remember if there's a way to look at the old messages
before they moved over to Dumpshock...
<Tzeentch> Oh BTW, the Knowledge Skills for programming seem to me to be the
best bet for crunching the system. Max out on the levels for those, get
Rating 10 skillsofts with CEDs or whatever. And keep making program plans
until you get the max number of successes
<Tzeentch> Since its in hours not days you can afford to crunch the Program
Plans
* Maelwys nods.
* Maelwys notes there are ALOT of bloody Knowledge skills for it though.
<Tzeentch> Well it promotes specializations or using Knowsofts out the ass
* Maelwys nods.
* Maelwys hmms.
* Maelwys looks at the Otaku programming rules.
<Tzeentch> In fact knowsofts are the best bet, no +4 modifier like there are
for System Familiarity
<Maelwys> 1 possible problem.
<Maelwys> Says you can purchase extra successes at 1 Good Karma point per
success...no limit on the amount of purchases.
* Maelwys rolls his eyes.
<Maelwys> "Complex forms may not be copied, uploaded, downloaded or
otherwise transferred to another persona or computer, they are non
transferable patterns within otaku's minds.
<Tzeentch> lol
<Maelwys> pg 138, top of the page.
<Maelwys> pg 140.
<Maelwys> An Otaku can also teach a complex for that he knows to another
Otaku."
<Tzeentch> Oh, for the actual Programming Test they can blow Karma?
<Tzeentch> Big deal
<Tzeentch> They still have to program it
<Maelwys> hmm.
<Tzeentch> Can't anyone blow Karma for successes on any test?
<Maelwys> but read the quote on pg 140. Does that sound contradictory?
<Maelwys> yeah...
<Tzeentch> Then big deal, so they can do what everyone else can ;)
<Maelwys> But I'm talking about the fact that there's no limit to the amount
of successes they can buy. IIRC, you can always only buy succeses = # of
successes you originally got.
<Maelwys> Let's put it this way.
<Maelwys> Otaku has...21 Karma.
<Maelwys> Wants to learn Rating 10 Killjoy.
<Maelwys> 1000 days, right?
<Tzeentch> I think the teaching just means you're giving the other scrub
ideas.
<Tzeentch> Yeah 1000 days
<Maelwys> he rolls his intel (say...7) against a TN of 7 (we'll say his WP
is 6)
<Maelwys> 7d6 7
<MaelDice> Maelwys: 7 [ 1 3 3 5 5 7 14 ] 2 successes
<Maelwys> two successes.
<Tzeentch> Why is the TN 7?
<Maelwys> Now he buys...8 more successes for 8 Good Karma.
<Tzeentch> The TN is equal to the Rating
<Maelwys> not for Otaku
<Tzeentch> they have -3 or something?
* Tzeentch looks
<Maelwys> "to Learn a complex form, the otaku simply makes an Intel test.
They TN is equal to the complex form rating, +1 per option, and reduced by
half the Otaku's Willpower (round down)
<Tzeentch> Well that otaku better have some INSANE Wilpower, Intelligence,
and Charisma scores to get Rating 10 anything
<Tzeentch> With 7s average he can only have proggies of Rating 7
<Maelwys> ?
<Maelwys> Why do you say that?
<Tzeentch> Never mind I didn't see the "...or his Computer(Programming)
skill)
<Maelwys> ?
<Maelwys> ahh
* Maelwys notes you're right.
<Tzeentch> Well even blowing 8 successes +2 he still has to spend 100 days
<Maelwys> Otaku complex forms can't be above their MPCP OR their Computer
skill.
* Maelwys hehs.
<Maelwys> How long did we decide it would take a decker?
<Tzeentch> About 342 days
<Maelwys> Quite a difference.
<Tzeentch> Just a tad ;)
<Tzeentch> The otaku pay through the nose in karma though
<Tzeentch> Otherwise they are even more screwed then normal programmers
since they cant use program plans or other aids
* Maelwys nods.
<Tzeentch> Its Karma that makes an otakus world go round
<Tzeentch> Otaku=karma whores
<Maelwys> yup
<Maelwys> More so then Magicians, IIRC
<Tzeentch> Probably
<Maelwys> hell, once they learn the Complex form, they still have to pay 1
GK to 'learn' the form.
<Maelwys> But I digress :)
<Maelwys> anything else we need to look up? :)
<Tzeentch> Less we've established the time problem is worse in Matrix then
it was in VR2...
<Tzeentch> Programming teams suck ass
<Tzeentch> Otaku are karma whores
<Maelwys> Worse for some programs.

Kenneth
"On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the
machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to
apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a
question."
-- Charles Babbage

From:	vocenoctum@**.com vocenoctum@**.com
Subject:	PROGRAMMING TIMES: VR2 vs Matrix. Also known as "otaku are karma whores"
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:35:47 -0400

Message no. 2 On Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:45:57 -0700 "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
writes:
<much snipping>
>> * Maelwys looks at the Otaku programming rules.
> <Maelwys> Says you can purchase extra successes at 1 Good Karma
> point per
> success...no limit on the amount of purchases.
> <Tzeentch> Can't anyone blow Karma for successes on any test?
> <Maelwys> yeah...
> <Tzeentch> Then big deal, so they can do what everyone else can ;)

Just a quick note, other's CAN burn karma POOL, Otaku (in this instance)
are using GOOD karma, big difference.

> <Maelwys> But I'm talking about the fact that there's no limit to
> the amount
> of successes they can buy. IIRC, you can always only buy succeses =
> # of
> successes you originally got.
<snipping>

> <Maelwys> "to Learn a complex form, the otaku simply makes an Intel
> test.
> They TN is equal to the complex form rating, +1 per option, and
> reduced by
> half the Otaku's Willpower (round down)
> <Tzeentch> Well that otaku better have some INSANE Wilpower,
> Intelligence,
> and Charisma scores to get Rating 10 anything

Dorias v4.0 is in final stages of polishing, final stats. Intel,
Willpower, Charisma=9
Still only got that starting Computer of 8, but the MPCP is
10(BEMS/10/10/10)

> <Tzeentch> With 7s average he can only have proggies of Rating 7
> <Maelwys> ?
> <Maelwys> Why do you say that?
> <Tzeentch> Never mind I didn't see the "...or his
> Computer(Programming)
> skill)
> <Maelwys> ?
> <Maelwys> ahh
> * Maelwys notes you're right.
> <Tzeentch> Well even blowing 8 successes +2 he still has to spend
> 100 days
> <Maelwys> Otaku complex forms can't be above their MPCP OR their
> Computer
> skill.
> * Maelwys hehs.
> <Maelwys> How long did we decide it would take a decker?
> <Tzeentch> About 342 days
> <Maelwys> Quite a difference.
> <Tzeentch> Just a tad ;)
> <Tzeentch> The otaku pay through the nose in karma though
> <Tzeentch> Otherwise they are even more screwed then normal
> programmers
> since they cant use program plans or other aids
> * Maelwys nods.
> <Tzeentch> Its Karma that makes an otakus world go round
> <Tzeentch> Otaku=karma whores
> <Maelwys> yup
> <Maelwys> More so then Magicians, IIRC
>
>

Well, mages spells drain karma too, and now Otaku have initiation to
worry about.
Course (not counting your house rules) you still need money for cyber/bio
such as the Math SPU and cerebral booster.
The time frame is what always bugged me about programming. At least now
its only 1GK for the Complex Form.

Next time you guys get bored, try to make a Sprite or Daemon :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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From:	NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject:	PROGRAMMING TIMES: VR2 vs Matrix. Also known as "otaku are karma whores"
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 21:39:17 -0500

Message no. 3 From: "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
Subject: PROGRAMMING TIMES: VR2 vs Matrix. Also known as "otaku are karma
whores"

> Myself and Mael were going over the programming times compared between VR2
> and Matrix. I'm afraid even with the base time changed to Size in Mp that
in
> most cases it will take LESS time to program using the VR2 rules. Heres an
> edited log of our conversation. You can also check out Maels post on
> Dumpshock - http://forums.dumpshock.com//Forum16/HTML/000013.html#2

I was wondering where all of this had gone to.

> We also discuss some ways to crunch the system if you're a munchkin and
want
> to get the least base times you can...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! (Sorry, I just remember doing this from a
playtesting POV and frothing badly while doing so.... ;-)

> <Tzeentch> How about something simple. Like an baseline
> Attack-4S program
> * Maelwys nods.
<SNIP(TM)!!!!>
> <Tzeentch> 1,000 base days to program (!!)
> <Tzeentch> hahah
> <Tzeentch> Gee I have 3 years to spend
> <Maelwys> 6 here.

I simply LOVED the way the times wound up. Programming an OS doesn't take
this long....

> <Tzeentch> Program Plan is 100 hours to make and 100Mp

Well, at least this almost makes some sense.

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>
<Tzeentch> Programming a Rating 0 Killjoy takes 1,004 days and some change
> <Tzeentch> lol
> * Maelwys nods
> <Maelwys> 6d6 10
> <MaelDice> Maelwys: 6 [ 1 2 2 4 7 9 ] 0 successes
> <Maelwys> heh, my guy doesn't even make it...
> <Tzeentch> lol
> <Maelwys> and it would be 2000 days :)
> <Maelwys> hmm.
> <Tzeentch> OK programming teams suck!

Which is why we changed them here, but our suggestions didn't make it
through. I'm reworking the Matrix section on HHH now (started last night),
so the Programming Design System, Programming Teams and maybe even our
proposed Host rules will be up by the end of the week (I'm taking a break
from working on the store until I hear more).

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>
<Tzeentch> Whoo I have no idea where the team is getting the 2
complimentary
> dice in the example from

And if you figure that out, please let me know.

> <Maelwys> so VR2 is better for the lower level programs...
> <Tzeentch> A task period is 8 hours in Matrix
> <Tzeentch> Well the TN modifiers really add up I should note. If I had a
> 2,000 Mp computer the TN would have dropped to 7
> <Tzeentch> 6d6 7
> <MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 1 1 3 4 11 ] 1 successes
> <Tzeentch> Pfft
> <Tzeentch> Ok it would still suck
> <Maelwys> heh.
> <Maelwys> Sometimes the dice suck :)

The Dice Bot I've noticed is nowhere near as "Lucky" as regular dice
throwing.

> <Tzeentch> Those damn task bonuses were really helpful

Yes, that they were. I suppose they were cut at the same time as the
"Squaring" concept was, thinking that when one was cut, the other was too as
it was deemed as "unnecessary math".

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>
> <Tzeentch> That is still WAY ridiculous

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one believing that.

> <Tzeentch> And thats with some MAJOR ass nuyen thrown at it. things
actually
> get WORSE if you use a programming team!!

Like what, I must have missed that one.

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>
> <Tzeentch> I wonder who the hell is programming this software then. Even
> with Computer 10 you can only do so much

Again, your guesses were as good as mine no doubt.

> <Tzeentch> Lets look at a REAL nasty proggie. Lethal Black IC (Multiplier
> 16)
> <Tzeentch> Lesse, whats a rating from the books.. lets say 8
> <Tzeentch> the chart doesnt even go that high heheh
> <Maelwys> heh, what page you on?
> <Tzeentch> Chart on p. 165
> <Tzeentch> 1,024Mp for a Rating 8 Lethal IC program
> <Tzeentch> Note that that is doable for a starting character

Is it??? I thought the availability of such programs kept them out of the
hands of beginning characters?

> <Tzeentch> Lesse with just a program plan thats 128 hours and 102Mp to
> produce.
> <Tzeentch> With nothing else lesse...
> <Tzeentch> 6d6 4
> <MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 3 5 5 7 11 ] 4 successes
> <Tzeentch> 6d6 4
> <MaelDice> Tzeentch: 6 [ 1 2 2 5 8 11 ] 3 successes
> <Tzeentch> 341 days
> <Tzeentch> Well at least its job security!

What an interesting viewpoint. Its a security measure that is job securing
in its very creation... (wonders if there is some unspoken point of irony
there someplace).

> <Maelwys> Heh...and with the programming team rules, it makes you wonder
how
> corps keep up with deckers :)

Actually, yeah, that's a good consideration.

> <Tzeentch> lol
> <Tzeentch> You know, looking at the programming team rules. WTF is the
point
> of them?
> <Tzeentch> they just drag you down if you have even *1* guy of a lower
skill
> <Tzeentch> And you use the AVERAGE skill so whats the point?
> <Maelwys> heh. The only point is split up the time.
> <Maelwys> Say the program would take one person 300 days to write, like
the
> Lethal Black IC we just did.
> <Maelwys> with 4 people, it would take a total of 75 days.
> <Tzeentch> That's lame

Hmmm ... interesting, I hadn't noticed it that way before. In effect, the
"Task Bonus" is now redeveloped into the "Programming Team". That's
odd,
considering part of that looks like stuff we submitted, but it got altered
somewhere in the communication translation.

> <Maelwys> As far as I can tell, that's the only point.
> <Tzeentch> What about splitting it up AFTER you've started on it though.
> <Tzeentch> How do companies work if 999 days into the 1000 day task the
> programmer leaves or wants more money?
> <Tzeentch> According to the rules they are screwed

Hmmmm ... if that is so, then what is the programming plan and the
uncompiled code good for?

> <Maelwys> ?
> <Tzeentch> Noone can do that last day of programming
> <Maelwys> eh...theoretically.
> <Tzeentch> If they could then whats the point of programming teams? Just
> start the task and let other people work on it

Which of course fails, because the way the rules stand, if the team
leader/coordinator vanishes, the whole project is dust. Makes for the stuff
of Shadowruns (extractions) if you ask me.

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>> <Tzeentch> Hmm
> <Tzeentch> Even a shitty Rating 6, Mult 6 program take almost a freakin
year
> to program

Now to be honest, with the average dice rolls I came up with, on a fairly
good system, I never got those numbers that high up at the end. Wondered
what I did differently.

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>
> <Tzeentch> With Lesse 3 team members (remember MAX # of team members is 5
no
> matter what) all with Comp 6 they must work a minimum of 85 days on the
> program (assuming the previous 341 day).
> <Maelwys> 3 months of work each, 8 hours a day.
> <Tzeentch> that seems steep

It is very steep, especially for a programming structure that is presumably
so iconic in nature. Tetris Max was never this hard ;-) And is the
maximum number of team members limited by the computer skill??? Gosh, that
is something I fought to have changed, but my system would have probably
been more harsh by comparison.

> * Maelwys shakes his head. "Ouch."
> <Tzeentch> I think the biggest problem is the fucking limit on the number
of
> team members.
> <Tzeentch> What gayass restriction is 5 members no matter WHAT?

Ken, one of these days you are going to use that term around me and I'm
going THUMP! you one for good measure.

> <Tzeentch> I say house rule that to no more then the highest Leadership in
> the group

Leadership, Management, Charisma... something that is coordinative, yeah.

> <Maelwys> Where are you getting the 5 member restriction?
> <Tzeentch> p. 80. the maximum size of the team equals the half the
Computer
> (Programming) skill of the member with the highest skill
> <Tzeentch> Since 10 is the best youcan get the limit is 5
> * Maelwys grins. "How do you figure 10 is the highest skill level you can
> get?"
> <Tzeentch> And you better hope everyone on the team has 10 for programming
> or you're screwed
> <Tzeentch> Even with Rating 10 in Computer, concentration in Programming
you
> are still only at 11
> <Tzeentch> To get above 10 in Programming will cost you so much karma I
> don't even want to think about it

Well then think harder because it is possible even if it doesn't happen in
your own games. And if want the rules to cover as much as possible, you
*HAVE* to break out of the mold of your own games.

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>
> <Maelwys> Only thing that would help us here is level 3. +1 to to all
> knowledge skill tests, which I assume would help with the programming
plan.

Regarding Mnemonic Enhancer, yes... the only thing it helps with is the
Programming Plan, and ONLY if a (Academic) Programming skill is used
(Background skill, Academic, whatever...).

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>
> <Tzeentch> Ooh, errata possibly.. p. 73 it just says the karma cost for
> SKILLs is reduced. Not just Knowledge I guess

Actually, there has never been an Errata for M&M that I can think of, unless
it was on the table at the seminar at Gencon and we didn't grab it. I
believe Dvixen has the latest versions if any. Otherwise, there is NO
ERRATA changing that rule. It was a discussion on this list involving
Mongoose and several others where he informed the list that the end
description was never intended to be that way by either himself or Rob
Boyle, yet somehow that is how it made it. Strange, considering when I
looked at our notes, there is mention of it in that direction.

<(SNIP(TM)!!!>
> <Tzeentch> Oh BTW, the Knowledge Skills for programming seem to me to be
the
> best bet for crunching the system. Max out on the levels for those, get
> Rating 10 skillsofts with CEDs or whatever. And keep making program plans
> until you get the max number of successes

Hmmm ... what is the availability on those again??? I seem to remember that
was the truly munchy factor in chipsofts of that nature.

> <Tzeentch> Since its in hours not days you can afford to crunch the
Program
> Plans
> * Maelwys nods.
> * Maelwys notes there are ALOT of bloody Knowledge skills for it though.

Yes, but once a program planning team is involved, it related to just
selecting one background skill.

> <Tzeentch> Well it promotes specializations or using Knowsofts out the ass
> * Maelwys nods.
> * Maelwys hmms.
> * Maelwys looks at the Otaku programming rules.
> <Tzeentch> In fact knowsofts are the best bet, no +4 modifier like there
are
> for System Familiarity
> <Maelwys> 1 possible problem.
> <Maelwys> Says you can purchase extra successes at 1 Good Karma point per
> success...no limit on the amount of purchases.
> * Maelwys rolls his eyes.

Possible problems like this even I can live with. If it makes the players
spend/burn the karma, then all that much better for it.

> <Maelwys> "Complex forms may not be copied, uploaded, downloaded or
> otherwise transferred to another persona or computer, they are non
> transferable patterns within otaku's minds.
> <Tzeentch> lol
> <Maelwys> pg 138, top of the page.
> <Maelwys> pg 140.
> <Maelwys> An Otaku can also teach a complex for that he knows to another
> Otaku."
> <Tzeentch> Oh, for the actual Programming Test they can blow Karma?
> <Tzeentch> Big deal
> <Tzeentch> They still have to program it
> <Maelwys> hmm.
> <Tzeentch> Can't anyone blow Karma for successes on any test?
> <Maelwys> but read the quote on pg 140. Does that sound contradictory?

NO, it is isn't contradictory. They aren't copying the form to another
Otaku, they are teaching another Otaku how to structurally develop that Form
within their own Living Persona.

> <Maelwys> yeah...
> <Tzeentch> Then big deal, so they can do what everyone else can ;)
> <Maelwys> But I'm talking about the fact that there's no limit to the
amount
> of successes they can buy. IIRC, you can always only buy succeses = # of
> successes you originally got.

I don't remember that limit myself, but it might be around in the rules
somewhere.

> <Maelwys> Let's put it this way.
> <Maelwys> Otaku has...21 Karma.

Good Karma or Real Karma? Otaku have the same restrictions on spending
karma just like everyone else.

> <Maelwys> Wants to learn Rating 10 Killjoy.
> <Maelwys> 1000 days, right?
> <Tzeentch> I think the teaching just means you're giving the other scrub
> ideas.
> <Tzeentch> Yeah 1000 days
> <Maelwys> he rolls his intel (say...7) against a TN of 7 (we'll say his
WP
> is 6)
> <Maelwys> 7d6 7
> <MaelDice> Maelwys: 7 [ 1 3 3 5 5 7 14 ] 2 successes
> <Maelwys> two successes.
> <Tzeentch> Why is the TN 7?
> <Maelwys> Now he buys...8 more successes for 8 Good Karma.
> <Tzeentch> The TN is equal to the Rating
> <Maelwys> not for Otaku
> <Tzeentch> they have -3 or something?
> * Tzeentch looks
> <Maelwys> "to Learn a complex form, the otaku simply makes an Intel test.
> They TN is equal to the complex form rating, +1 per option, and reduced by
> half the Otaku's Willpower (round down)
> <Tzeentch> Well that otaku better have some INSANE Wilpower, Intelligence,
> and Charisma scores to get Rating 10 anything
> <Tzeentch> With 7s average he can only have proggies of Rating 7
> <Maelwys> ?
> <Maelwys> Why do you say that?
> <Tzeentch> Never mind I didn't see the "...or his Computer(Programming)
> skill)
> <Maelwys> ?
> <Maelwys> ahh
> * Maelwys notes you're right.
> <Tzeentch> Well even blowing 8 successes +2 he still has to spend 100 days
> <Maelwys> Otaku complex forms can't be above their MPCP OR their Computer
> skill.
> * Maelwys hehs.
> <Maelwys> How long did we decide it would take a decker?
> <Tzeentch> About 342 days
> <Maelwys> Quite a difference.

But actually completely within understanding. Just because a person can
performing programming does not necessarily mean they can go running through
the Matrix and start hacking into things. The experiences and skill and
exposures to develop those insights (the abstract regulators that are GM's
control as no game mechanic can really cover that well) is a good mechanism
to think about.

> <Tzeentch> Just a tad ;)
> <Tzeentch> The otaku pay through the nose in karma though
> <Tzeentch> Otherwise they are even more screwed then normal programmers
> since they cant use program plans or other aids

Hmmm .. again, must have missed that as I don't recall where an Otaku can't
come up with a "Forming Plan".

> * Maelwys nods.
> <Tzeentch> Its Karma that makes an otakus world go round
> <Tzeentch> Otaku=karma whores
> <Maelwys> yup
> <Maelwys> More so then Magicians, IIRC

Actually, they are now on par with Magicians in nearly all ways.

> <Tzeentch> Probably
> <Maelwys> hell, once they learn the Complex form, they still have to pay 1
> GK to 'learn' the form.

Which is actually less than a magician who must pay one (1) point per force
point of spell.

> <Maelwys> But I digress :)
> <Maelwys> anything else we need to look up? :)
> <Tzeentch> Less we've established the time problem is worse in Matrix then
> it was in VR2...
> <Tzeentch> Programming teams suck ass
> <Tzeentch> Otaku are karma whores
> <Maelwys> Worse for some programs.

Wish I had been there for that conversation. Might have been able to have
blown some holes into it at the time. At this point, I'm not sure I care.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Some)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)

From:	Maelwys wraith@************.com
Subject:	PROGRAMMING TIMES: VR2 vs Matrix. Also known as "otaku are karma whores"
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 02:07:00 -0500

Message no. 4 From: NeoJudas <neojudas@******************.com>
Subject: Re: PROGRAMMING TIMES: VR2 vs Matrix. Also known as "otaku are
karma whores"

>> <Maelwys> Sometimes the dice suck :)
>
>The Dice Bot I've noticed is nowhere near as "Lucky" as regular dice
>throwing.

Yeah yeah, there's only so much randomness in a dicebot...next time I'll do
what I do for my ED game sometimes, which is throw my own dice :)

>> <Tzeentch> 1,024Mp for a Rating 8 Lethal IC program
>> <Tzeentch> Note that that is doable for a starting character
>
>Is it??? I thought the availability of such programs kept them out of the
>hands of beginning characters?

I think what he was talking about was being able to program it, not
necessarily starting with it...again, where would a decker put it? On his
home computer? :)

>> <Tzeentch> Even a shitty Rating 6, Mult 6 program take almost a freakin
>year
>> to program
>
>Now to be honest, with the average dice rolls I came up with, on a fairly
>good system, I never got those numbers that high up at the end. Wondered
>what I did differently.

You rolled :) He was talking about base time. (6x6x6) = 216 Days...almost
a year, a little short (By about 5 months...it was late :)

>Well then think harder because it is possible even if it doesn't happen in
>your own games. And if want the rules to cover as much as possible, you
>*HAVE* to break out of the mold of your own games.

It honestly doesn't cost that much to do it, just time consuming :)

>NO, it is isn't contradictory. They aren't copying the form to another
>Otaku, they are teaching another Otaku how to structurally develop that
Form
>within their own Living Persona.

Yeah, I just reread it. Teaching adds +1 dice for each 2 successes on the
Instruction (4) test.

>I don't remember that limit myself, but it might be around in the rules
>somewhere.

I could've sworn I've seen a rule saying you couldn't buy more successes
then the amount of successes you got on the test, maybe not.

>
>> <Maelwys> Let's put it this way.
>> <Maelwys> Otaku has...21 Karma.
>
>Good Karma or Real Karma? Otaku have the same restrictions on spending
>karma just like everyone else.

Good Karma
>
>> <Maelwys> Wants to learn Rating 10 Killjoy.
>> <Maelwys> 1000 days, right?
>> <Tzeentch> I think the teaching just means you're giving the other scrub
>> ideas.
>> <Tzeentch> Yeah 1000 days
>> <Maelwys> he rolls his intel (say...7) against a TN of 7 (we'll say his
>WP
>> is 6)
>> <Maelwys> 7d6 7
>> <MaelDice> Maelwys: 7 [ 1 3 3 5 5 7 14 ] 2 successes
>> <Maelwys> two successes.
>> <Tzeentch> Why is the TN 7?
>> <Maelwys> Now he buys...8 more successes for 8 Good Karma.
>> <Tzeentch> The TN is equal to the Rating
>> <Maelwys> not for Otaku
>> <Tzeentch> they have -3 or something?
>> * Tzeentch looks
>> <Maelwys> "to Learn a complex form, the otaku simply makes an Intel
test.
>> They TN is equal to the complex form rating, +1 per option, and reduced
by
>> half the Otaku's Willpower (round down)
>> <Tzeentch> Well that otaku better have some INSANE Wilpower,
Intelligence,
>> and Charisma scores to get Rating 10 anything
>> <Tzeentch> With 7s average he can only have proggies of Rating 7
>> <Maelwys> ?
>> <Maelwys> Why do you say that?
>> <Tzeentch> Never mind I didn't see the "...or his
Computer(Programming)
>> skill)
>> <Maelwys> ?
>> <Maelwys> ahh
>> * Maelwys notes you're right.
>> <Tzeentch> Well even blowing 8 successes +2 he still has to spend 100
days
>> <Maelwys> Otaku complex forms can't be above their MPCP OR their Computer
>> skill.
>> * Maelwys hehs.
>> <Maelwys> How long did we decide it would take a decker?
>> <Tzeentch> About 342 days
>> <Maelwys> Quite a difference.
>
>But actually completely within understanding. Just because a person can
>performing programming does not necessarily mean they can go running
through
>the Matrix and start hacking into things. The experiences and skill and
>exposures to develop those insights (the abstract regulators that are GM's
>control as no game mechanic can really cover that well) is a good mechanism
>to think about.
>
>> <Tzeentch> Just a tad ;)
>> <Tzeentch> The otaku pay through the nose in karma though
>> <Tzeentch> Otherwise they are even more screwed then normal programmers
>> since they cant use program plans or other aids
>
>Hmmm .. again, must have missed that as I don't recall where an Otaku can't
>come up with a "Forming Plan".

I don't see where it says they can :) It says nothing under Complex form
programming where it says that they can make a programming plan.

>Wish I had been there for that conversation. Might have been able to have
>blown some holes into it at the time. At this point, I'm not sure I care.

Heh, I'll invite you if we ever decide to do Deck construction tests, and
Daemon/Sprite tests :)

Maelwys

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