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Message no. 1
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:01:54 -0400
Once upon a time, Airwasp wrote;

>> Yeah, and next we will have teleporting PC's.
>
>It could be possible.
<snip>

Magic is too weak and FASA swears an oath every day to never let it
happen. Only two IE has demonstrated what appeared to be this ability. It
was nothing more than an Dowd showing the the 6th world will have
mysteries that will escape explanation. It was not a taste of things to
come. And we haven't seen it again Harlequin.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 2
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:13:37 +0100
At 17-Mai-98 wrote MC23:

>Once upon a time, Airwasp wrote;

>>> Yeah, and next we will have teleporting PC's.
>>
>>It could be possible.
><snip>

> Magic is too weak and FASA swears an oath every day to never let it
>happen. Only two IE has demonstrated what appeared to be this ability. It
>was nothing more than an Dowd showing the the 6th world will have
>mysteries that will escape explanation. It was not a taste of things to
>come. And we haven't seen it again Harlequin.

The head of the Black Lodge, a human can do teleportation too according to
Threats.
But then he is over 800 years old too.

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:37:17 EDT
In a message dated 5/17/98 6:15:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
barbie@**********.COM writes:

> The head of the Black Lodge, a human can do teleportation too according to
> Threats.
> But then he is over 800 years old too.
>
Ah, but Barbie, that guy may or may NOT be that old. And we don't know if it
was teleportation or just some -really- high level illusion magic.

Me personally, i think it's kind of cool to have a Teleport-Like ability, as
long as it doesn't overwhelm the job of the Rigger. single people or smaller
objects, sure, larger objects??? Better be a MAJOR plot point that is
involved....

-K
Message no. 4
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 02:41:38 -0400
Once upon a time, Barbie wrote;

>The head of the Black Lodge, a human can do teleportation too according to
>Threats.
>But then he is over 800 years old too.

And the entries in Threats are all told in game so all the stories
are under some degree of suspect. It was a lot more open ended than
Harlequin was about it.
Of course they did use Strain III from Threats and I thought that
was the only totally unbelievable story. It was a perfect urban myth
until Target: UCAS. B>[#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Boy, I'm in a bad mood today! Everyone had better steer clear of me! I
hate EVERYBODY! As far as I'm concerned, everyone on the planet can just
drop dead. People are scum.
.....
WELL-L-L? DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO CHEER ME UP?!?"
-Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes
I am MC23
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:48:06 -0400
At 12:01 PM 5/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Once upon a time, Airwasp wrote;
>
>>> Yeah, and next we will have teleporting PC's.
>>
>>It could be possible.
><snip>
>
> Magic is too weak and FASA swears an oath every day to never let it
>happen. Only two IE has demonstrated what appeared to be this ability. It
>was nothing more than an Dowd showing the the 6th world will have
>mysteries that will escape explanation. It was not a taste of things to
>come. And we haven't seen it again Harlequin.


Exactly. A "taste of things to come," which doesn't mean they are
currently possible by PCs.

This is the biggest problem I have with much of the magic stuff available
on the Internet. People seem to believe that if they can dream it up, it
must be possible. But that's not the case. You really have to keep in
mind not only the current mana level but the current magic level.

And do you really think some sleaze-bag shadowrunner is going to somehow
come up with some amazing magical invention when there are hundreds of
specialized scientists/theorists/magicians who do this sort of research day
in and day out? Possible, but not bloody likely.

We can dream up hand-held laser guns. But does anybody honestly believe
those will be possible in our lifetimes? I don't.

Magic is similar. What is currently possible is based upon two general
concepts. First, as with science, nearly all innovation is the product of
research and is built upon the successes of the here and now, that it all
builds upon each other and there are few "leaps" that allow
technology/knowledge to bounce forward several steps. Progress is usually
a slow progression in other words, not amazing leaps forward. And the
second is the whole "mana curve" thing, that seems to indicate that
whatever it is that "powers" magic (almost certainly mana) is rising. This
curve is thought to be relatively flat. And remember, there is that bit in
the Dragonheart saga about stamping out those spikes.

Even given those two factors, magic allows an incredible amount of things
to be done.

But if you look at magical knowledge in a fashion similar to "mundane"
knowledge, you'd see that things like teleportation simply isn't possible.

Why not?

Okay, here goes. What is teleportation? It, in some fashion, takes object
A and very nearly instantaneously takes object a from point 1 to point 2.

Star Trek transporters in other words. We can now come up with a theory
about how it might work. But there are so many pieces of not-yet-invented
technology that prevent us from doing it. I am aware that an experiment
was done that teleported a single particle from one set of coordinates to
another. But that is one particle, from a predeterimined point a to point
b, and if I recall correctly, the procedure didn't work even most of the time.

Now to magic. How would magic do this? The human mind simply can't handle
all the coordinates needed to do AD$D teleportation; to take a scientific
approach like that you'd have to map all your own coordinates and then know
the exact coordinates to where they are supposed to go. Don't like that
option much.

What about taking the body into the astral plane and doing it that way? As
ED has shown, that is possible, given appropriate mana and tech levels.
But this isn't currently possible in 205X; this comes from a conversation I
had with Steve Kenson about two years ago when I was writing an article for
the now-defunct Shadowlands magazine.

Given the current knowledge limitations, I just don't see things like
teleportation and astral aura altering to "squeeze" past barriers.

But I'll throw a dog a bone on the teleportation issue.

The *ONLY* way I had teleportation in a game I played in and sometimes
GM'ed was that it was a one-way, single shot type deal that was thought up
by another GM and I couldn't exactly stomp it out since it was a collective
world.

But here's my best offering for those people that simply *must* have
teleportation. A magical circle had to be set up and from there the spell
was cast. Something like 12D Physical drain, flat rate. The caster then
had a special charm that he kept with him. When the charm was used, it
would teleport the caster back to the special magical circle. Naked. All
active magical items disrupted (since the route taken back was an alternate
dimension sort of thing).

It made for a nice emergency exit when things got FUBAR squared, but it
wasn't something to be used in 99.99% of situations.

That is how I would suggest allowing teleportation if you are dead-set on
having it.

Erik J.

Fight the Future on June 19th!
Message no. 6
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:07:15 -0400
On 18 May 98, at 14:48, Erik Jameson wrote:

> But here's my best offering for those people that simply *must* have
> teleportation. A magical circle had to be set up and from there the spell
> was cast. Something like 12D Physical drain, flat rate. The caster then
> had a special charm that he kept with him. When the charm was used, it
> would teleport the caster back to the special magical circle. Naked. All
> active magical items disrupted (since the route taken back was an
> alternate dimension sort of thing).
>
> It made for a nice emergency exit when things got FUBAR squared, but it
> wasn't something to be used in 99.99% of situations.
>
> That is how I would suggest allowing teleportation if you are dead-set on
> having it.

That's good. Works for me because the drawbacks are so steep.

Here is another method I was thinking of that is based on the real world
teleportation that occurred recently. I'm no physicist, but from what I
understand of the experiment, what they actually did was they had two
particles linked in some fashion set at an X distance apart. To teleport the one
particle to the others location, nothing physical actually transposed space.
They simply copied the properties of particle A to particle B, and vice versa.
This caused A to take on the characteristics of B, and B of A, thus for all
intents and purposes becoming its counterpart. The end result is that A is now
where B was, and B likewise. This change occured instantly, so to an observer,
the two particles teleported.

Ok, let's relate this to a teleport spell. Mage creates an exact duplicate of
himself. (Clone). The spell would transport the mage's life force to the clone, or
back if the mage so desires. Of course, this would mean that the mage could
take nothing with him. It also means that a body would be lying around, but the
mage could hopefully plan for that contingency.

I know this is wacked-out, but is it feasible using Shadowrun magic?

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 7
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:10:15 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/98 4:08:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
drekhead@***.NET writes:

> Ok, let's relate this to a teleport spell. Mage creates an exact duplicate
of
> himself. (Clone). The spell would transport the mage's life force to the
> clone, or
> back if the mage so desires. Of course, this would mean that the mage could
> take nothing with him. It also means that a body would be lying around, but
> the
> mage could hopefully plan for that contingency.
>
> I know this is wacked-out, but is it feasible using Shadowrun magic?
>
Sorry, not even in my games here. "Life Transfer" of the level you are
suggesting is Ritual Magic, pure and simple.

I have had -MAJOR- rules concerning "Teleport Like Magic" in the games here.
Some of those rules exist on Hacker House...go check 'em out if you'd like.
The name of the spell you are looking for is "Gateway."

-K (http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/mag/olgrim.htm)
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:04:53 -0400
At 05:07 PM 5/18/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Here is another method I was thinking of that is based on the real world
>teleportation that occurred recently. I'm no physicist, but from what I
>understand of the experiment, what they actually did was they had two
>particles linked in some fashion set at an X distance apart. To teleport
the >one particle to the others location, nothing physical actually
transposed space.
>They simply copied the properties of particle A to particle B, and vice
versa.
>This caused A to take on the characteristics of B, and B of A, thus for all
>intents and purposes becoming its counterpart. The end result is that A is
now
>where B was, and B likewise. This change occured instantly, so to an
observer,
>the two particles teleported.
>
>Ok, let's relate this to a teleport spell. Mage creates an exact duplicate of
>himself. (Clone). The spell would transport the mage's life force to the
clone, >or back if the mage so desires. Of course, this would mean that the
mage could
>take nothing with him. It also means that a body would be lying around,
but the
>mage could hopefully plan for that contingency.
>
>I know this is wacked-out, but is it feasible using Shadowrun magic?

Gee Tim, I didn't know you were capable... ;-)

BTW, I also remember reading about this same experiment. It may never have
real-world applications, but it's fascinating nonetheless.

Okay, my gut reaction says no. When I start to think about it, I see the
direction your thoughts must have gone though, so...

To do this physically, in a mundane fashion, you would have to redefine the
characteristics of billions? trillions? effectively infinite? particles in
the human body. Possible in theory, and it would be only from one fixed
point to another fixed point, but theoretically possible. Practically
impossible though.

Now you want to do this with magic. Okay, let's say that it is possible to
clone an entire human being. Not a huge stretch given the accepted concept
of clonal tissues to replace damaged ones. I've never gotten the
impression though that anyone has been able to clone an entire body
perfectly; you can clone parts well enough, but not an entire human being
with all it's complex systems; witness the problems with ol'Thomas Roxborough.

But let's say it's possible for arguments sake.

While here in the real world we can argue back and forth whether or not
there is such a thing as a "soul," the entire concept of astral projection
and the general philosophical implications of the SR magic cosmology would
seem to indicate that in the SR world there is something that at least
approximates a soul. This soul is what powers a human being and is what
makes it more than just an organized lump of cells. What you are proposing
is that somehow the soul is transposed between one body and another. Sort
of like "possessing" another body and leaving your old one to be blown into
smithereens.

And what would happen if either the original body or the clone were
protected by astral barriers? The teleporting life force/soul/whatever
could easily be blocked by that, and what would be the affect of that?
Soul bounces back to original body maybe, or the soul is instantly
disrupted and the PC dies instantly and horribly. Not sure.

Theoretically possible I suppose. But I would see this a something akin to
a cybermantic ritual, at least in terms of difficulty. It wouldn't be
something that players could use to teleport out of difficult situations
(anywhere from guns blazing to mother-in-laws nagging). So while it would
appear to be possible in theory, I would have to say it isn't possible in
practice.

BUT it is something that I would be willing to allow as a GM plot device.
It really isn't suited for PCs after all, and is more suited for some old
man trying to live forever or something. I can think of several shadowrun
opportunities built around this concept.

Personally, the original teleportation concept wasn't my own and was
something I essentially had to accept. Now that I'm in control of my own
game (since college anyway, 3 yrs.) it hasn't made an appearance because I
wasn't really happy with it. But it's a good concept for some people out
there.

Erik J.

Fight the Future on June 19th!


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 9
From: Nexx3 <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:51:20 EDT
Actually, I think space folding would be an eventual possibility in the 6th
world. While its not true teleportation, a point to point space fold would be
incredibly useful...

scratch that. I just realized the amount of power you'd have to be weilding
to make space fold work. Levitation is one thing... hell, even flame-bombs
are fairly reasonable compared to this.

Nexx
Message no. 10
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:05:36 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/98 7:06:33 PM !!!First Boot!!!, erikj@****.COM writes:

Okay this is me possibly about to go on a rant, hopefully I'll be restrained
enough to not enter into such a mode however.

> This is the biggest problem I have with much of the magic stuff available
> on the Internet. People seem to believe that if they can dream it up, it
> must be possible. But that's not the case. You really have to keep in
> mind not only the current mana level but the current magic level.

It may not be possible to perform the magic, but there is nothing to say that
the theory can not be worked up. And, if there is some form of magic for
which the mana is not high enough to perform like a normal spell, then make
the spell a ritual, as they are inherently more powerful than the normal spell
being flung on a whim.

> And do you really think some sleaze-bag shadowrunner is going to somehow
> come up with some amazing magical invention when there are hundreds of
> specialized scientists/theorists/magicians who do this sort of research day
> in and day out? Possible, but not bloody likely.

Necessity is the mother of all inventions. All of the scientist and people in
the world can do their best, but if something is truly needed by one
individual, then they will try and do something about it. And in the world of
SR, there are a lot of things people can accomplish if they push themselves to
do it.

And as for shadowrunners, they have to stay on the cutting edge, otherwise the
demand for themselves will slowly vanish (along the lines of dead-end tech).
And anything a runner can do to stay one small or large step ahead of everyone
else means they are one of the nova hot runners, and will get the cred for the
big runs, and will be the ones people will turn to to get things done.

> We can dream up hand-held laser guns. But does anybody honestly believe
> those will be possible in our lifetimes? I don't.

Hey, chummer, Hand-held lasers will be available within the military in 20 to
30 years. They already have an option for special forces people which places
a small cartridge into a undermount grenade launcher, and when the trigger is
pulled a chemical reaction takes place and shoots out a laser beam.

As for a laser sword, please note, the sword is being made from something
which is in the books, the Eye Tool Laser which does 4L damage. Now, imagine
the damage potential of a true Tool Laser which does not have the limitation
of being within the eyeball cavity and has a larger power source. The amount
and quality of the damage will increase greatly.

A note to you, it has been said by a lot of computer manufacturers that modern
computers, the mainframes, are going to be on par with the ones they mention
in Star Trek, so, reality and fiction are fast becoming a reality. And IIRC,
somewhere I read that a computer of today would be faster and better than the
computer that was on the original Enterprise, if it actually existed.

> Magic is similar. What is currently possible is based upon two general
> concepts. First, as with science, nearly all innovation is the product of
> research and is built upon the successes of the here and now, that it all
> builds upon each other and there are few "leaps" that allow
> technology/knowledge to bounce forward several steps. Progress is usually
> a slow progression in other words, not amazing leaps forward. And the
> second is the whole "mana curve" thing, that seems to indicate that
> whatever it is that "powers" magic (almost certainly mana) is rising.
This
> curve is thought to be relatively flat. And remember, there is that bit in
> the Dragonheart saga about stamping out those spikes.
>
> Even given those two factors, magic allows an incredible amount of things
> to be done.

Progress is never slow, it is fast and destructive to those who will not
change, and it only slows down when the technological infrastructure is
getting ready for the next leap in the technology level. And as for progress
being slow, compare the technology level of the beginning of the century and
today. I would call that a massive and rapid change.

> But if you look at magical knowledge in a fashion similar to "mundane"
> knowledge, you'd see that things like teleportation simply isn't possible.

If you say that it is not possible, then you are limiting the knowledge which
can be learned. And don't tell me that the megas don't all have big mages
working on developing Teleportation.

> Why not?
>
> Okay, here goes. What is teleportation? It, in some fashion, takes object
> A and very nearly instantaneously takes object a from point 1 to point 2.

Okay, I can believe that. Though, doing something in SR that is
instantaneous, is something that happens only with LOS spells.

Okay, an example of this. Part one, a mage is going to cast a Hellblast (one
of my fav spells) at something that is 400 meters away. He gets a success and
the spell goes off blowing the frag out of it.

Now then, part two. If the same mage could see a target from a distance of
40,000 kilometers (this is an example). It states somewhere that a mage can
travel in the astral at speeds equal to his Attribute in thousands of kph, so,
extending this to spells, though making it the force of the spell in kph. The
force of the spell is a 4. This means a speed of 4,000 kph, and it is going
to take the spell 10 hours to get to the target.

Now then, part three, same mage, same spell (only combat), and a distance of
40,000 kilometers, though this time there is a twist, the mage has an active
spell lock for a person on the target which is 40k away. Mage grounds the
spell through the spell lock, the spell goes off instantaneously at the other
end. No ten hours of waiting, no nothing.

So, as for the teleportation spell, it can be limited unless the caster is
casting the spell through a grounding link.

And as for the drain of the spell, the caster best be able to center very well
or have lots of dice.

> Star Trek transporters in other words. We can now come up with a theory
> about how it might work. But there are so many pieces of not-yet-invented
> technology that prevent us from doing it. I am aware that an experiment
> was done that teleported a single particle from one set of coordinates to
> another. But that is one particle, from a predeterimined point a to point
> b, and if I recall correctly, the procedure didn't work even most of the
> time.

Tech is always harder to make, but once made is something that is easily mass-
produced and replicated. Magic is not so easily replicated or mass-produced.

> Now to magic. How would magic do this? The human mind simply can't handle
> all the coordinates needed to do AD$D teleportation; to take a scientific
> approach like that you'd have to map all your own coordinates and then know
> the exact coordinates to where they are supposed to go. Don't like that
> option much.

No, in AD&D, all the caster needed to know was the place enough to know it was
there. And the more the caster knew about the place the less chance they had
of fragging themselves once they got there.

They same goes in SR, though when applied to rituals and when trying to cast a
spell where the caster has no knowledge about where the spell is going. Ever
cast a spell to go off roughly 60 meters on the other side of the wall without
knowing what was truly there ?

> What about taking the body into the astral plane and doing it that way? As
> ED has shown, that is possible, given appropriate mana and tech levels.
> But this isn't currently possible in 205X; this comes from a conversation I
> had with Steve Kenson about two years ago when I was writing an article for
> the now-defunct Shadowlands magazine.

True, but for an intiated mage, the mana potential that they can access is far
greater than a non-initiated mage also, they have direct access to the
metaplanes.

> Given the current knowledge limitations, I just don't see things like
> teleportation and astral aura altering to "squeeze" past barriers.
>
> But I'll throw a dog a bone on the teleportation issue.
>
> The *ONLY* way I had teleportation in a game I played in and sometimes
> GM'ed was that it was a one-way, single shot type deal that was thought up
> by another GM and I couldn't exactly stomp it out since it was a collective
> world.

If you have the book of Horrors for Earthdawn, consider the section under
Nemesis. He has teleportation, though from link to link, via a grounding link.
We have this guy in our games here. We have also given him a different name,
Azag, and he is currently the patron for a runner group, though they do not
know he is a horror, they just know that he is an exception enchanter and has
oodles of cred for their toys.

> But here's my best offering for those people that simply *must* have
> teleportation. A magical circle had to be set up and from there the spell
> was cast. Something like 12D Physical drain, flat rate. The caster then
> had a special charm that he kept with him. When the charm was used, it
> would teleport the caster back to the special magical circle. Naked. All
> active magical items disrupted (since the route taken back was an alternate
> dimension sort of thing).

Sounds like some something vindictive and sorry, <rant engaged> something
close-minded. <rant disengaged>

> It made for a nice emergency exit when things got FUBAR squared, but it
> wasn't something to be used in 99.99% of situations.

You are right, and we suggest the pcs don't use teleportation here, as we have
had it in the games for the last 5-6 years, all of the time, and when they
abuse the use, they get smacked for it. Like a pissed off spirit which
intercepts them in the astral, or the spell is dispelled in mid-transit
plopping them off wherever they may be.

> That is how I would suggest allowing teleportation if you are dead-set on
> having it.

Sorry if I may have flamed you, I was tired, and the "attitude" of the letter
was too much for me.
Message no. 11
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:23:42 -0400
Once upon a time, Airwasp wrote;

>Sorry if I may have flamed you, I was tired, and the "attitude" of the
letter
>was too much for me.

Which was?
I was the one who started this thread and I'm glad my cryptic
reference was indeed picked up by some (Ereskanti at the forefront). This
is to say just because we can realize something, doesn't mean it doesn't
have to justified. That is the dangers of adding something to a game.
When Dowd opened Shadowrun's Pandora's Box of magic he left Teleport in,
and with good reason.

As far as progress, I consider it a recent phenomenon in the grand
scheme of things that is still only in process. All your examples are
within the last hundred years ignoring everything before it. That's not
much of a precedent.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"When _I_ use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
-Through the Looking Glass

I am MC23
Message no. 12
From: Nexx3 <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:18:41 EDT
Actually, I was doing some thinking. I think space fold could be made
instantaneous, and wouldn't have that big of a cost (aside from the ritual
elements... at least, not as far as a megacorp is concerned.

The GGD, as we know, didn't measure drain in terms of fatigue or even health
levels. It measured it in terms of deaths. Now then, one of these bright-boy
mages just happened to stay awake through biology long enough to realize that
they were dealing with things that were alive, therefore possessing some
measure of astral presence. He also learned, once he got out of college, that
his corp could gene-engineer samples to be astrally active. This bright boy
does some figuring, and starts playing around with an idea for teleportation
(like his bosses want... any way possible).

This mondo ritual is actually a form of space fold (if you don't know what
that is, skip the rest of this... use the time to read A Wrinkle in Time...
tessering is space fold). Now, since the deaths that are brought about to
suffer the drain must be active in the ritual, he designs, in the spell
formula, a way for them to be integral parts of the ritual. The result is
that he (along with his fellow magicians, who willl hate him for coming up
with this and making them look bad) can tesser some(one/thing) to any location
that he either has a ritual link to or has a member of the team spotting for
him.

Now, how to make space fold instaneous. Normal space fold just makes you go
really face compared to normal, non-folded space. What you do in this case is
fold space very tightly, so points A and B are about half a meter apart for
the purposes of this spell. The subject shifts his weight to the foot at
point B, and the magician stops sustaining the spell. With a jolt, the
subject is at his destination. Since space is folded, not shrunk, he
simultaneously exists at points A and B until the spell is no long sustained..
then he's only at point B.

Did that make any sense whatsoever?

Nexx
Message no. 13
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:01:30 -0400
Once upon a time, Nexx3 wrote;

>Actually, I was doing some thinking. I think space fold could be made
>instantaneous, and wouldn't have that big of a cost (aside from the ritual
>elements... at least, not as far as a megacorp is concerned.

<snip>

>Did that make any sense whatsoever?

You are working from a basis the spacial folds are possible for
Shadowrun's magic. Magic is wonderful and all but in Shadowrun it is not
a tool to do everything. It has it's own limitations like everything else.
In Earthdawn the rank 15 Lightbearer talent Astral Shift (the
highest of high in an age of high magic) works by shifting the character
completely over to the astral plane and it still has a lot of limitations
on its use. That ability is the highest mortal (in this use means born of
Earth) can reach and the 6th world's mana level a long time to reach
Earthdawn's level.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 14
From: Nexx3 <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:07:34 EDT
In a message dated 98-05-20 12:03:38 EDT, you write:

<< You are working from a basis the spacial folds are possible for
Shadowrun's magic. Magic is wonderful and all but in Shadowrun it is not
a tool to do everything. It has it's own limitations like everything else. >>

True, it has limitations, but given the different paradigm (oops, there's the
p word) that Sixth Worlders operate under, it has more possibilities to them
than it would to a Fourth Worlder. After all, when did the concept of space
fold really get its theoretical basing? Mid-twentieth century, most likely.
Without the idea of how to do something, how could one even attempt it?

Nexx
Message no. 15
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:47:18 -0400
Once upon a time, Nexx3 wrote;

>True, it has limitations, but given the different paradigm (oops, there's the
>p word) that Sixth Worlders operate under, it has more possibilities to them
>than it would to a Fourth Worlder. After all, when did the concept of space
>fold really get its theoretical basing? Mid-twentieth century, most likely.
>Without the idea of how to do something, how could one even attempt it?

6th worlds magical beliefs originates from the 5th world beliefs of
magic. Scientific theory does not affect this. And the old ways are still
the foundation of current magic research for the Hermetics still seeking
to understand this new world. Shamans general go along with how their
totem guides them. Magic is truly a Tradition and you cannot escape from
that.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 16
From: Nexx3 <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:50:15 EDT
In a message dated 98-05-20 12:49:28 EDT, you write:

<< 6th worlds magical beliefs originates from the 5th world beliefs of
magic. Scientific theory does not affect this. And the old ways are still
the foundation of current magic research for the Hermetics still seeking
to understand this new world. >>

Yes, but what about science fiction theory? That's still what space fold is.
Message no. 17
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:01:06 -0400
Once upon a time, Nexx3 wrote;

>In a message dated 98-05-20 12:49:28 EDT, you write:
>
><< 6th worlds magical beliefs originates from the 5th world beliefs of
> magic. Scientific theory does not affect this. And the old ways are still
> the foundation of current magic research for the Hermetics still seeking
> to understand this new world. >>
>
>Yes, but what about science fiction theory? That's still what space fold is.

Has no effect on magic. That's what I was saying.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 18
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:24:54 -0400
At 12:18 AM 5/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Actually, I was doing some thinking. I think space fold could be made
>instantaneous, and wouldn't have that big of a cost (aside from the ritual
>elements... at least, not as far as a megacorp is concerned.

<snipped>

So this is a Great Ghost Dance style ritual? With similar sorts of drain?
Did I read that right?

That *might* be possible within what FASA has presented us.

In order to manipulate space-time in some a fashion, requiring both brute
force and fine manipulation, would have a drain code measured in number of
deaths, not stun damage.

*IF* it was possible for some bright boy to even come up with this spell
(which, as you have seen, I would argue against this), then this sort of
drain code would be appropriate. And the effect you are talking about
would be possible.

This is probably the most appropriate answer (if I read and understood it
right) to the question of teleportation that I've seen; it's possible, but
so incredibly impractical as to be effectively useless and to become the
strict domain of the GM.

Not bad...

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 19
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:54:57 -0400
At 02:01 PM 5/20/98 -0400, you wrote:

>><< 6th worlds magical beliefs originates from the 5th world beliefs of
>> magic. Scientific theory does not affect this. And the old ways are still
>> the foundation of current magic research for the Hermetics still seeking
>> to understand this new world. >>
>>
>>Yes, but what about science fiction theory? That's still what space fold
is.
>
> Has no effect on magic. That's what I was saying.


As much as I hate to step up in opposition to you MC23, and as much as I
hate it when people try to interject too much science into their magic
("Hey, my new spell is a Meson Beam!"...dork...), I've gotta do it.

You are both right, at least to a certain degree. Much of magic theory to
date in RL has little grounding in modern science (we do have to remember,
though, that hundreds of years ago science and magic was one and the same,
i.e. alchemy).

However, you've got to remember that a cross-pollination of ideas and
concepts ala the Renaissance would be occuring, or on the verge of occuring
within the world of SR. The *science* of magic is not isolated nor would
it be exclusively concerned with moldy old tomes.

I think you'd also have to remember that when magic returned, you'd have a
whole lot of people trying to quantify it and make it a hard science just
as physics. I'm sure a fair number of hermetics see it just that way.

I'd also be willing to be that the number of "Double Domes" as the Grimmy
calls them would be increasing, those individuals with a strong footing in
both magical theory and some physical science or other (likely physics I
would think).

So in the end, I strongly believe that you'd have a pretty good amount of
information filtering back and forth across academia, with people trying
ideas from differing fields and seeing if they work in magic theory. I can
easily imagine some white lab coated supernerd wondering if that physics
paper on space folding could possibly work using magic, and trying to meld
what he knows of physics with what he knows of magic. It might simply be
an exercise in futility, but I can see it being thought of.

You have similar sorts of things happening in our modern world, and it's
one of the main reasons there is this intense feeling of massive change
going on, when in reality it's just a horde of tiny changes all of which
are interacting and cross-pollinating.

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 20
From: Nexx3 <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:12:50 EDT
In a message dated 98-05-20 15:00:24 EDT, you write:

<< I'd also be willing to be that the number of "Double Domes" as the
Grimmy
calls them would be increasing, those individuals with a strong footing in
both magical theory and some physical science or other (likely physics I
would think). >>

In addition to the double-domes, you'd have a good number of kooks. What if a
trekkie were a latent mage? I'm not talking about an intelligent, reasonable
person whose hobby happens to be Star Trek, but rather one of the real wakkos
who speaks fluent Klingon (in three different dialects, and with two accents),
spends most of his time wearing the Klingon make-up, and gets his Starfleet
uniform pressed during practice with his bat'leth (I've known one guy like
this... he scares me). What if he were a latent mage, then began
understanding everything from the point of view of Star Trek technobabble?
He'd probably start pulling feats out of thin air that no one else had thought
of... not because they weren't possible, but simply because they weren't
thinking in that way. His magic is heavily grounded in science fiction
theory, and it would work just as well.

Nexx
Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:52:11 -0400
At 05:12 PM 5/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-05-20 15:00:24 EDT, you write:
>
><< I'd also be willing to be that the number of "Double Domes" as the
Grimmy
> calls them would be increasing, those individuals with a strong footing in
> both magical theory and some physical science or other (likely physics I
> would think). >>
>
>In addition to the double-domes, you'd have a good number of kooks. What
if a
>trekkie were a latent mage? <snipped>


Actually, Nexx ol'chap, what you describe there is a self-made tradition,
as described in Awakenings.

What you describe is someone using another belief system (science and
treknology included) to explain their magic. What I'm describing is
someone who understands both magic and physics (or whatever) as two
seperate fields of study and is looking for ways to link to two in a
rational scientific manner.

Just as a point of curiosity, how many people have actually come across
"self-made traditions" in your SR games? I've never seen one myself.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Prometheus Unbound (was Re: Astral Magic)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:41:01 EDT
In a message dated 5/20/98 11:09:12 AM US Eastern Standard Time, Nexx3@***.COM
writes:

> << You are working from a basis the spacial folds are possible for
> Shadowrun's magic. Magic is wonderful and all but in Shadowrun it is not
> a tool to do everything. It has it's own limitations like everything else.
>
> >
>
> True, it has limitations, but given the different paradigm (oops, there's
> the
> p word) that Sixth Worlders operate under, it has more possibilities to
them
> than it would to a Fourth Worlder. After all, when did the concept of
space
> fold really get its theoretical basing? Mid-twentieth century, most
likely.
> Without the idea of how to do something, how could one even attempt it?
>
I can only get in on the "opposing side" this time. It has been the goals of
Mankind for eons to be able to "travel in the blink of an eye". Imaginary
carpets of magic, doorways that skipped from one room to another. the list is
almost endless. It isn't something designated by limitation of "mentality",
but by "Imagination".

-K

Further Reading

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