Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@***.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 20:50:03 -0500
***** Disengaging Cloaking Device *****
. . .. . . .... .. . . . . .. . .. .. .. . . . . .
... .. . .. .. ... .... .. ... . ....... . . .. ..... ... .. . .. .. .....
. /. ./ . /.\ '. /. /. \/.\ /.\.\. / \\ ...\/ .\ \./\.\/. \..\ .\./\./\./
/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\///\\/\/\\\/\/\\\/\/\\/\\/\/\/\/\/\\///\\\//\\/\\/\\/\/\\\/\/

This Psionic/Psionicist/Psychotic debate has brought back much of the vim and
vigor of the list which has not been witnessed since days of yore . . .

( "Oh, No!" I hear the voices wail. "He's beginning to reminisce!" )

I tell you, in those days, Men were REAL Men, Women were REAL Women, and
small, furry creatures for Alpha Centauri were REAL small, furry creatures
from Alpha Centauri. And thus was the Empire forged . . .

Which brings us to Stardate: Today.

(Yes, now that you make mention of it, I am in a peculiar mood.)

Previous to the breaching of this argument by the denizens of the list, I had
contemplated the possibility of "Mentalist Adepts," a Psionicist by another
name.

As the debate has -- in many respects -- already initiated its formulation,
I feel led to offer my two Reichsthalers to the ruminations:

( "Nuts! I was hopin' he would stay out of this!" )

Despite this . . . I /am/ sincerely hoping that SOMEONE shall read this.



I. Psionicists verses Magicians

A. Hybrids =============================================================

The general sentiment present is for a demarcation line between psionic
and metaphysical manipulations, which is a wise choice, I believe.

Despite this seeking to differentiate, it is apparent that there are
some who would allow for characters to embrace both worlds, as it were. This
suggestion causes considerable unease for me, as I involuntarily call to mind
the evils of multi-classed characters in D&D (and obviously I don't mean
Doom & Dark Elf). Verily, I am quite cognizant of the fact that ShadowRun is
not a class-based system -- and for that, many of us offer up gratuitous
praise to the heavens -- but what of the power gamer hybrids? What of what of
Rigger/Decker/Mages?

Do these not warrant some vexation?

I harbor disturbing images of Magician-Psionicist combinations, as with
all such abominable splicing of wholly divergent disciplines. Is is truly
necessary to leave such an avenue available to them?

"If you build it, they'll abuse it."

It is my judgment that considerably fewer headaches fostered were the two
arenas of ability considered mutually exclusive. ShadowTech recounts that the
current theory correlating Magic and Genetics submits that "the magus factor is
a genetic melange, a combination, of encoded mental traits (spread across the
entire genome) operating in mysterious gestalt. Although geneticists have
decoded and deciphered the physiological elements of man, many facets of the
human mental condition (the ephemeral concepts) continue to elude
identification and classification." (ShadowTech, page 70, paragraph 2,
clauses 3, 4.) Psionicists, it would naturally follow, require specific mental
characteristics as well for "awakening the power of the mind."

A Magician draws upon and manipulates Astral forces; a Psionicist's power
issues from /himself./ Given these two dichotomous approaches to the exhibition
of supernatural capacities, it would be a small step to declare them
individually incompatible . . . and a wise step, to my mind.

One possibility of avoiding this unwholesome eventuality would be to maintain
the priority system, /in statu quo/, plotting Psionics and Mages on the same
axis. The player shall have to choose betwixt the two preternatural abilities,
either the expansion of the powers of the mind, or the ability to channel,
ground and manipulate metaphysical energies from the Astral Plane.

Hence, we have this:

Race Magic / Psionics $/Force Att Skills
A Meta Full: Mage/Psi 1,000,000/50 30 40
B Human Adept: Mage/Psi 400,000/35 24 30
C Human None / Wild Psi 90,000/25 20 24
D Human Spoekenkiekerei 5000/15 17 20
E Human None 500/5 15 17

This model has the advantages of being fully compatible with the contemporary
system as well as simplicity. One unattractive element of this proposal --
which I freely concede -- is that it causes Psionicists and Magicians to be of
roughly equal (at least in Player Character terms) frequency. Although it
would avert the phenomena of "dual-classed" characters.

B. Cyberware & Bioware =================================================

There are also intimations about lessening the impact Cyberware and Bioware has
upon Psionicist abilities. On the face of it, this seems a fair proposal.

Were one to follow my supplied Character Generation Chart, for a similar cost,
they receive a slightly more specific but more dedicated system of powers, and
the impact that physical augmentation has upon their system is decreased.

Although, all nervous and cranial modification should retain -- in my not so
very but nevertheless occasionally humble opinion -- FULL PENALTIES, as the
central nervous system is the very stuff of which a Psionicist is made.

One does not wish to encourage Psionicists to get Encephalon IV, Math SPU,
Cerebral Boosters, and Pneumonic Enhancers, after all.

C. The Star Wars Paradigm ==============================================

Save for the power of Premonition, a Jedi Knight character could be generated
using the present system quite handily, were he classified as a Sorcery Adept.

To consider a Jedi to be an acceptable model is a misstep in the formulation of
theory of how Psionicists function. Jedi are manipulators of the Force, an
energy field which "gives the Jedi his power. It surrounds us, penetrates us,
and binds the universe together." This is quite reminiscent of the description
of magical manipulations. Admittedly, a Jedi's utilization of the Force is not
on the level of diversity of Sorcery, but the parallels are there.

Consequently, when Obi-Wan Kenobi sense the destruction of Alderaan, it is not
mental energies being transmitted through the Astral, but a form of Astral
"fallout" similar to Background Count. Certainly, it is not much of a
philosophical "reach" to consider the intensity of the ubiquitous and
emotions of anger, fear, and suffering occurring ubiquitously and experienced
simultaneously by an entire civilization or society, coupled with the
unprecedented magnitude of the annihilation of life would cause certain
"shockwaves" in the Force, or Astral Plane.

Also, reaching back to the Cyberware issue, even were one to grant the
assumption of the equivalence of Psionicist and Jedi, suggesting that cyberware
not affect a Psionicist, with the citation of the case of Darth Vader -- a
cyborg with IMPRESSIVE psionic powers -- has its rationale based on a false
assumption.

Darth Vader, for one, is well beyond the scope of any Normal (tm) Player
Characters. What is far more likely is that following his, ah, ACCIDENT with
General Kenobi, which left him desperately clinging to what life remained in
his body, he sought to augment his powers via Initiation / Mastery.
Eventually, he met and superseded his previous capacity: "When last we met, I
was but a student. Now /I/ am the Master."

As Kenobi astutely observes: "Only a Master of Evil, Darth." Which alludes
to the fact that Vader's journey to potency in the Force was facilitated
significantly by the Path he chose, the Dark Side, which is portrayed as a
"quicker, easier" pursuit. As a result, it is not in he least far fetched
that Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker's powers could have "taken it on the
(proverbial) nose" by his extensive cybernetic modification, only to have him
laboriously endeavor to match and transcend his previous capacity by the study
of Dark Side disciplines.

D. Psionicists and the Astral Plane ====================================

Continuing along this rant -- err, dissertation on Psionicists, we
raise the issue of Psionicists and the Astral Plane.

The phenomena of psychic projection is far too oft included in supposed psychic
abilities to be wholly ignored; however, if Psionicist and Magicians are TRULY
different, then one must take care not to unify them in this capacity.

To permit such an ability to them would be to confuse and muddy the partition
between the two and would therefore be both unwise and unwarranted. Psychic
Projection would be similar to an physically-manifested, astrally-projecting
Magician (say THAT five times in rapid succession!), i.e. one's spirit on the
Physical Plane but incapable of manipulating or being inhibited by physical
objects. Nor is this connected to the Astral Plane.

For Mages, this act causes one to become visible as a translucent ghost-like
image. For Psionicist, it may be decided that when they Project they are
1) Always visible
2) Always invisible
3) May will themselves between these two states.

As for me, I haven't yet settled upon an option. Although an interesting
qualifier set on this power would mandate that one be a Full Psionicist to
have this ability, as per the Magical

E. Psionicists and the Matrix ==========================================

I care not if a Psionicists' attacks or manipulations shall be limited
to other technomancers, this is a DISTURBING precedent to set!

Had I suggested that I shall only wield Magic in the Matrix against other
technomancers, what sort of response would I have received?

THWAPs, most likely, and WHY? Magic and the Matrix do not mix, in any form.
Why do we endeavor to include the ability of cyberpsionic abilities?

Do the proponents truly desire us to accept the highly dubious assertion that
fiber-optic cable is an acceptable medium for the projection mental powers?

And previous to anyone inquiring, "Well, what of technomancing?" The
fiber-optic cable brings the Matrix to YOU, not vice versa. The sensation
that one's mind/spirit is anywhere save where one jacks-in is an illusion, a
Virtual Reality phantasmagoria.

Keep Magic and Psionics OUT OF THE MATRIX!

My apologies for sounding so emphatic, meine Kameraden, but this suggestion
violates one of the central tenants of ShadowRun, that of extraordinary powers
or preternatural abilities are not to be juxtaposed with technology.



Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^

***** Re-engaging Cloaking Device *****

\//\/\/\/\/\/\/\\\//\/\///\/\///\/\//\//\/\/\/\/\//\\\///\\//\//\//\/\///\/\
. \. .\ . \./ ,. \. \. /\./ \././. \ // .../\ ./ /.\/./\. /..\ ./.\/.\/.\
... .. . .. .. ... .... .. ... . ....... . . .. ..... ... .. . .. .. .....
. . .. . . .... .. . . . . .. . .. .. .. . . . . .
Message no. 2
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 21:38:20 +0100
I've deleted much of Doom's ramblings since they are so long (not that I
don't ramble a lot too).

--------------------

On Sun, 17 Jul 1994, Doctor Doom wrote:

> What of what of
> Rigger/Decker/Mages?

What of them? It's a Role-Playing game. People shoudl be able to run
with a viable concept.

> Do these not warrant some vexation?

Not necessarily. We've built in some munchkin shields in the form of the
impossibility of being both a Full PSI and a Full Mage. Plus the
requiring of splitting Force points.

In addition, Shadowrun is full of examples of "dual-classed" persons, the
first of which was the famous Sam Verner. Not only was he a fairly good
Shaman, but he could also hack a system or two (followed closely by two
advil).

Munchkinism will exist whether we allow it to or not. The trick is to
give the munchkins somethign so they are happy and not want more.

> "If you build it, they'll abuse it."

"If you don't build it, they'll abuse it even more."

> A Magician draws upon and manipulates Astral forces; a Psionicist's power
> issues from /himself./ Given these two dichotomous approaches to the exhibition
> of supernatural capacities, it would be a small step to declare them
> individually incompatible . . . and a wise step, to my mind.

Note however, that PSI is close enough to magicic to have been confused
for it for quite some time, and even today (2054) most organized PSI is a
subset of magical teachings. They are different, but the necessity of
devotion and patience and conncentration are still there.

> Although it
> would avert the phenomena of "dual-classed" characters.

You'll still get them. I often _Role-Play_ "multi-classed"
jack-of-all-trades character because that is what I like playing. I
often have far far fewer powers that Billy GunBunny with the twin panther
cannons. I also have a lot more fun.

> B. Cyberware & Bioware =================================================

Doom and I agree. Essence is essence. Don't screw with what works.

> C. The Star Wars Paradigm ==============================================

And Merlin could be generated as a PSI quite easily as well. PSI is just
another Role-Playing approach with very few overall differences than
mages. I'm in this for the chance to play a new and fresh type of
character, not of "Ultimate Power{tm}"

> "When last we met, I
> was but a student. Now /I/ am the Master."

"The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but a learner. Now
_I_ _am_ the master."


> E. Psionicists and the Matrix ==========================================
>
> I care not if a Psionicists' attacks or manipulations shall be limited
> to other technomancers, this is a DISTURBING precedent to set!

well . . . I still like the role-playing potential.

> Had I suggested that I shall only wield Magic in the Matrix against other
> technomancers, what sort of response would I have received?

A THWAP, magic and tech cannot mix. PSI is not magic. PSI is the mind.

> THWAPs, most likely, and WHY? Magic and the Matrix do not mix, in any form.
> Why do we endeavor to include the ability of cyberpsionic abilities?

Because, by nature, PSI is not precluded from melding with synthetics.

> Do the proponents truly desire us to accept the highly dubious assertion that
> fiber-optic cable is an acceptable medium for the projection mental powers?

I put forth the possibility that strange things are afoot at the Circle
K. Weird things are always possible. 'It's a cinematic game'. There is
fictional precedent. You can ignore it if you don't want it. A munchkin
will do worse if we don't define the terms. It's kool. It's only a game.

> And previous to anyone inquiring, "Well, what of technomancing?" The
> fiber-optic cable brings the Matrix to YOU, not vice versa. The sensation
> that one's mind/spirit is anywhere save where one jacks-in is an illusion, a
> Virtual Reality phantasmagoria.

And if PSI powers can be injected into the matrix, those effect can come
to you too.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.0) GJ/CM d- h-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* c++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5++ j
r+++$ G- v+ b D+ b--- e+>++(*) u** H* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 3
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 13:52:53 +1000
I read Doom's post, liked it, agreed with it.

I'll just add that it seems to me that the people contributing are
trying to add in every type of Psychic or Psionic ability they've
ever read about.

This is not a good thing when you're designing something. It's the
main danger when you design something by committee, because there is
an enormous tendency to try to please everyone.

Imagine what the SR magic system would have been like if Paul Hume
had taken the same approach...

And now I'll confess that apart from accidental readings, I've stopped
following the Psi thread. (Not that anyone cares, I'm sure, :-), I'm
just being honest.)

luke
Message no. 4
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 00:44:00 -0500
I guess it's time to talk blindly, since I can't talk to you when
you're cloaked...

> I harbor disturbing images of Magician-Psionicist
> combinations, as with all such abominable splicing of wholly
> divergent disciplines. Is is truly necessary to leave such an
> avenue available to them?

Yes.

Shadowrun is a game where ALL options are left open, if you work at it.
A mage, if he or she really wants to do it, can be a decker, a rigger, what-
ever...although it is directly opposed to their magic.

Psionics should be the same.

Of course, Psionics must be allocated on creation, but it's the same with
(oops there...) magic.

> "If you build it, they'll abuse it."

If you don't build it, then they'll never get the chance to try...

> of supernatural capacities, it would be a small step to declare
> them individually incompatible . . . and a wise step, to my mind.

Why? Why should they be incompatible...what does it hurt, any more than
the current system allows, to allow someone to be "multi-class"? This is the
flexibility of Shadowrun...

> very but nevertheless occasionally humble opinion -- FULL
> PENALTIES, as the central nervous system is the very stuff of which
> a Psionicist is made.

And, in some cases, I'd say the penalties should be increased...but
in others, such as with datajacks (which only facilitate), maybe they should
be just fine.

Probably, we'll need new figures for this. Oh well.

> C. The Star Wars Paradigm
> ==============================================

This one I agree with you on, and was what I was originally trying
to say...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 5
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 23:09:41 -0700
On Mon, 18 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> I read Doom's post, liked it, agreed with it.
>
> I'll just add that it seems to me that the people contributing are
> trying to add in every type of Psychic or Psionic ability they've
> ever read about.
>
> This is not a good thing when you're designing something. It's the
> main danger when you design something by committee, because there is
> an enormous tendency to try to please everyone.
>
> Imagine what the SR magic system would have been like if Paul Hume
> had taken the same approach...
>
> And now I'll confess that apart from accidental readings, I've stopped
> following the Psi thread. (Not that anyone cares, I'm sure, :-), I'm
> just being honest.)
>

Well actually, we are just throwing out any and all ideas that we
can think of in an effort to make this as complete as possible. We
originally talked about Teleportation, but have since stayed away from
it. No one said we were including everything we talk about in the
project. We are still in the beginning stages of this thing. Do you
think Paul Hume sat down and said, "Here are the spells. None shallbe
added or deleted. This first list is the final list." Of course not.
He bounced ideas off of others and got feedback and that eventaully
turned into the Grimey. Thank you, and goodnight (I once ended a 32 page
term paper with that sentence. Got an A+ on it =) )


Kyle Kohler

Thank you and goodnight.
Message no. 6
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 23:13:49 -0700
< Hell of a lot of good stuff deleted >

Well, the Doc brought up some good points. We are defninitely
getting some new viewpoints (always welcomed). Perhaps we should stop
with all the game mechanics for a second and start off simple. You know,
just ask yourselves what exactly we want Psionics to do. How does it
work (in words, not tables)? Are we perhaps overbalancing the game by
adding Psionics as inclusive instead of exclusive? Just some thoughts.
Not saying I necessarily agree with what Herr Doom said.

P.S. Say Doc, do you write speeches? 'Cause I got this one
coming up and... =)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% % % %
% Kyle Kohler % Love your enemies, % This space %
% % % %
% kkohler@**.ucr.edu % It'll confuse the % Unintentionally %
% % % %
% C.S. Major % hell out of them % left blank %
% % % %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Message no. 7
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 16:31:07 +1000
kyle kohler:

> [...] Perhaps we should stop
> with all the game mechanics for a second and start off simple. You know,
> just ask yourselves what exactly we want Psionics to do. How does it
> work (in words, not tables)? Are we perhaps overbalancing the game by
> adding Psionics as inclusive instead of exclusive?

A good idea. Even better (IMHO) would be to ask, what is it about Psionics
that makes you want to add them. In other words, how does it improve the
game?

Don't forget, since Tom Dowd said `FASA will never add Psionics to SR'
(or words to that effect), if you also want FASA to endorse this (or even
pay you for it!), you're going to have to persuade him, first.

And...

> No one said we were including everything we talk about in the
> project. We are still in the beginning stages of this thing. Do you
> think Paul Hume sat down and said, "Here are the spells. None shallbe
> added or deleted. This first list is the final list." Of course not.

Obviously. But I can't believe that he sat down with a list of spells
and said, `Hmm, now I need a magic system that lets me do lots of these
things.'

I'm suggesting that you're having trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

But I'm not saying you should stop; just take a step back.

> Are we perhaps overbalancing the game by adding Psionics as inclusive
> instead of exclusive?

Absolutely.

luke@********.Inc
Message no. 8
From: Dylan Northrup <northrup@*****.CAS.USF.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 10:15:23 -0400
On Sun, 17 Jul 1994, Doctor Doom wrote:

[A verbose thesis stating his views of the topic-du-jour]

> And previous to anyone inquiring, "Well, what of technomancing?" The
> fiber-optic cable brings the Matrix to YOU, not vice versa. The sensation
> that one's mind/spirit is anywhere save where one jacks-in is an illusion, a
> Virtual Reality phantasmagoria.
>
> Keep Magic and Psionics OUT OF THE MATRIX!

Well said. I couldn't place a finger on exactly what bothered me about
PSI in the Matrix, but I must confess that the emminent Doctor has
pinpointed the problem with his usual verbosity and style. The Matrix is
an illusion. It is not real. You can only affect hardware physically. You
can only affect wetware physically. You cannot affect either via PSI
unless you are physically in range of them. The Matrix doesn't propogate
psionic (or magical) powers. It can't! Unless you think in Binary and
can send that down the f-o cable, you can't do what you are proposing.

And let me state, for the purposes of trying to be rational and not
sounding like a raving fanatic, the above is all in my opinion. These
opinions are based on the paradigm that I envision for Shadowrun. Your
paradigm might be different, however, I must say yhay allowing the
proposed Cyberpsionicist as a PC would set a dangerous precident and this
is something that I would want in a product written by the assembled of
this list.

> My apologies for sounding so emphatic, meine Kameraden, but this suggestion
> violates one of the central tenants of ShadowRun, that of extraordinary powers
> or preternatural abilities are not to be juxtaposed with technology.

What he said.

*****************************************************************************
* Dylan Northrup <northrup@*****.cas.usf.edu> * I'm not a computer genius *
*********************************************** I just play one in the lab *
* <http://www.cas.usf.edu/dylan.html>; * KIBO# *******************************
* PGP key available via WWW & e-mail * seven * C++ - language or religion? *
*****************************************************************************
Geek Code down for repairs.

-----------------------
Random Babylon 5 Quote:
-----------------------
"They are a mystery and I am both terrified and reassured that there are
still wonders in the Universe, that we have not explained everything."
-- G'Kar, "Mind War"
Message no. 9
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 14:41:12 -0700
Bravo! Bravissimo!
Thy matchless prose and wit of repartee as set forth upon this
ethereal electronic medium is matched only by the suavity of your forceful
logical assertations.
<I don't have to agree with Herr Doom to appreciate his points.
It just happens that I do.>

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about PSI: Doom Delineates Disparate Discussion, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.