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Message no. 1
From: Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Psionic rules
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 20:01:30 -0700
So what do you guys think of writing some rules for psionics in SRII?
You could treat it as completely different from, having nothing to do
with it. Say, a C/NERPS idea....
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Psionic Rules
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:47:59 -0400
Hello! I have just finished my first draft of Psionic rules for Shadowrun
and would like some opinions on my work. However, since the document is
about 3 pages long, I don't want to post it to the list. Thus, if anyone
is interested in taking a look at the rules I have designed, I would be
more than happy to send them to you in trade for some constructive
feedback. If you are interested, please e-mail me privately.

Any takers? Oh, come on. You know you're curious. ;)

Thanks!

Justin :)
(vanyel@*******.net)
Message no. 3
From: Charles R Joseph <arcaneacuity@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:23:46 -0400
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:47:59 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>Hello! I have just finished my first draft of Psionic rules for
Shadowrun
>and would like some opinions on my work. However, since the document
>is about 3 pages long, I don't want to post it to the list. Thus, if
>anyone is interested in taking a look at the rules I have designed, I
would
>be more than happy to send them to you in trade for some constructive
>feedback. If you are interested, please e-mail me privately.
>
>Any takers? Oh, come on. You know you're curious. ;)

Sure, send a copy my way. I've been looking for a better way to
use Psi in Shadowrun.


Winter Wolfe Arcane
arcaneacuity@****.com

"When our hatred is violent, it sinks us even beneath those we hate."
Message no. 4
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:12:34 -0400
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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> From: Charles R Joseph <arcaneacuity@****.COM>
> Date: Sunday, August 03, 1997 8:23 PM

> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:47:59 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
> writes:
> >Hello! I have just finished my first draft of Psionic rules for
> Shadowrun
> >and would like some opinions on my work.

<Snip>

> Sure, send a copy my way. I've been looking for a better way to
> use Psi in Shadowrun.

Okay, here are the Psionics rules. I have attached them as an MS Word 7.0
document. Let me know if you need them in a different format and I will be
happy to resend them. I did my best to keep these rules simple and within
the scope of magic in SR as it stands. Thus, you shouldn't have a problem
integrating them into your game.

Please let me know what you think about them: good, bad, or otherwise. :)
I really appreciate the feedback!

Thanks!

Justin :)

> Winter Wolfe Arcane
> arcaneacuity@****.com
>
> "When our hatred is violent, it sinks us even beneath those we hate."
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------=_NextPart_000_01BCA06B.1BA9F800--
Message no. 5
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:36:32 -0800
><Snip>
>
>> Sure, send a copy my way. I've been looking for a better way to
>> use Psi in Shadowrun.
>
>Okay, here are the Psionics rules. I have attached them as an MS Word 7.0
>document. Let me know if you need them in a different format and I will be
>happy to resend them. I did my best to keep these rules simple and within
>the scope of magic in SR as it stands. Thus, you shouldn't have a problem
>integrating them into your game.
>
>Please let me know what you think about them: good, bad, or otherwise. :)
> I really appreciate the feedback!

Uh, it's not all that appreciated to send attachments to the entire list,
especially 33K ones... Maybe you just messed up in sending it to the
list, but uh... I think Spike will be pissy. :]

-Skye
Message no. 6
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:43:43 -0400
> From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
> Date: Monday, August 04, 1997 1:36 AM

<Snip>

> Uh, it's not all that appreciated to send attachments to the entire list,
> especially 33K ones... Maybe you just messed up in sending it to the
> list, but uh... I think Spike will be pissy. :]

Oh goddess, I am so sorry! I didn't mean to send the file to the list, but
when I was replying to one of the many (!) requests for this file, one of
the reply to addresses must have come up as this SR mailing list address
and I didn't notice. I was hoping that everyone who replied used their
reply to author command correctly so I could just reply to them and have
the file not go to the list. That's what I get for being in a hurry. :(

Again, I am really sorry for this mistake, it was an oversight, NOT a
blatant abuse of the list. Trust me, I have read the FAQ and am very aware
of the standing of this list on attachments. Please forgive me. :)

> -Skye

Justin
Message no. 7
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 03:31:27 EDT
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:47:59 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>Hello! I have just finished my first draft of Psionic rules for
Shadowrun
>and would like some opinions on my work. However, since the document is
>about 3 pages long, I don't want to post it to the list. Thus, if
anyone
>is interested in taking a look at the rules I have designed, I would be
>more than happy to send them to you in trade for some constructive
>feedback. If you are interested, please e-mail me privately.
>
>Any takers? Oh, come on. You know you're curious. ;)

OK, but what's wrong with the Psionics concept given in Awakenings?
Isn't having it just be a subset of normal magic easier than coming up
with a completely different system?

~Tim
Message no. 8
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 03:39:56 -0400
> From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
> Date: Monday, August 04, 1997 3:31 AM

> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:47:59 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
> writes:

> >Any takers? Oh, come on. You know you're curious. ;)

> OK, but what's wrong with the Psionics concept given in Awakenings?
> Isn't having it just be a subset of normal magic easier than coming up
> with a completely different system?

I wanted to allow for some variety with Psionics without creating an
entirely new system for it. Thus, I came up with about 3 pages of rules
and expansions to allow for some differences when using magic as psionics
that follows the standard rules of magic, with a few exceptions. This way,
you can use Psionics in your campaign allowing someone the ability to use
magic in a more stealthy manner, but still following the same basic rules
for spellcasting.

> ~Tim

Justin :)
Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:43:37 +0100
|
|This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

Oh dear.....
|Please let me know what you think about them: good, bad, or otherwise. :)
| I really appreciate the feedback!
|
|Thanks!
|
|Justin :)

Oh dear, oh dear.....

|Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
|Content-Description: Psionics (Microsoft Word Document)
|Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Psionics.doc"
|
|0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAA
|EAAAIAAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAAMAAAD/////////////////////////////////////////////
|------=_NextPart_000_01BCA06B.1BA9F800--

<Self rightious brothers>
OI! JUSTIN! NO!
WE DO NOT WANT BINARIES ON THIS MAILING LIST!!!!!
</self rightious brothers>

You realise what this means, don't you?
<Looks down at the bag at his side and grins evilly>

You REALLY didn't want to do that.....
<Gingerly unzips the bag, producing a very smelly rotten carp that is
WAYYYYY too big to fit in the bag... (Hey, it was zipped, remember)


##### # # # # ## #####
# # # # # # # # #
# ###### # # # # # #
# # # # ## # ###### #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# # # # # # # #

Don't do it again, there's a good chap.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:46:36 +0100
|Uh, it's not all that appreciated to send attachments to the entire list,
|especially 33K ones... Maybe you just messed up in sending it to the
|list, but uh... I think Spike will be pissy. :]

<Feigned innocence>

Who? Me? I can't imagine what you're talking about....

</Feigned innocence>
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:48:29 +0100
|Again, I am really sorry for this mistake, it was an oversight, NOT a
|blatant abuse of the list. Trust me, I have read the FAQ and am very aware
|of the standing of this list on attachments. Please forgive me. :)

I think after such an exquisite grovel, I'll let you off with just the one
thwap....

You ever posted a question to the oracle? He likes good grovels....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:09:09 -0400
>
>OK, but what's wrong with the Psionics concept given in Awakenings?
>Isn't having it just be a subset of normal magic easier than coming up
>with a completely different system?
>
>~Tim

I have to agree, I like the simplicity of the idea that psionics are just
adepts, or mages with a radically different paradigm from most magicians.
However, variety isn't often bad, and sometimes a new system can be neat, I
just don't see any need for it.

k a b a e l meo the shoes :- ) kabael@****.net

some quotes from GoldeBoy, my very first Anime movie:
"This is SO educcational!" "This toilet overflows with my
tears..."
"Who started this?" "Is the music first?"
"When I took a nap, despite my cramming, my face became patterned like the
carpet."
Message no. 13
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:46:31 -0400
> From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
> Date: Monday, August 04, 1997 11:09 AM

> >OK, but what's wrong with the Psionics concept given in Awakenings?
> >Isn't having it just be a subset of normal magic easier than coming up
> >with a completely different system?

> >~Tim

> I have to agree, I like the simplicity of the idea that psionics are just
> adepts, or mages with a radically different paradigm from most magicians.
> However, variety isn't often bad, and sometimes a new system can be neat,
I
> just don't see any need for it.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I am going to comment
anyway. ;)

For the most part, that's what I do. I treat Psionics as magic that
follows the vast majority of the rules for magic in any other form.
However, I liked the idea of giving this paradigm a bit more subtlety when
used than standard magic (which is blatant on the astral plane). Thus, it
is still magic and the same spells are used, etc. However, the one main
difference between this paradigm and the others is its ability to be used
more subtly. It does have its drawbacks, however. The rules are about 3
pages long and don't require a lot of effort to incorporate into your game
(plug plug). The allow for variety within the different paradigm, without
creating an entirely new system.

After all, according to the rules in SR, you could never use a telepathic
type spell without anyone with astral perception or a Detect Magic spell
noticing what you were doing. I like the idea of people under this
paradigm to have a bit of a chance of not being discovered to be using
their magic all the time by the standard mage. Other Psionicits being
present is a whole different story. :) What can I say, I watch B5. :)

> k a b a e l meo the shoes :- ) kabael@****.net

Justin :)
Message no. 14
From: Charles R Joseph <arcaneacuity@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:34:37 -0400
On Mon, 4 Aug 1997 03:31:27 EDT Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM> writes:
>OK, but what's wrong with the Psionics concept given in Awakenings?
>Isn't having it just be a subset of normal magic easier than coming up
>with a completely different system?
>~Tim

Personally, I hated that they made psionics just another sub-set
of magic because...well...by dammit psionics should have a flavor all
their own. They should be different at more than just the most
superficial difference from standard magic.
Frankly, the "everything's the same, it just looks different"
approach Shadowrun takes toward magic steals the flavor from magic,
making it stagnant. They put out all sorts of window dressing, but the
house is still the same dusty house it's always been.
Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

Winter Wolfe Arcane
arcaneacuity@****.com

"When our hatred is violent, it sinks us even beneath those we hate."
Message no. 15
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:33:48 -0500
You wrote:
> Personally, I hated that they made psionics just another sub-set
> of magic because...well...by dammit psionics should have a flavor all
> their own. They should be different at more than just the most
> superficial difference from standard magic.
> Frankly, the "everything's the same, it just looks different"
> approach Shadowrun takes toward magic steals the flavor from magic,
> making it stagnant. They put out all sorts of window dressing, but the
> house is still the same dusty house it's always been.
> Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

Personally, I think that coming up with 'psionics' for SR isn't really that
exciting an idea, but if people want it, fine. It makes a nice 'third
tradition' for magic, a more modern tradition. But to say that we need a
separate game system for each new type of 'magic' is, well... not a good idea
in such an abstract system. In Storyteller, sure, there's hedge magic,
Thaumaturgy Paths, mummy magic, Vicissitude, and many, many other types of
magical abilities. If you want a detailed magic system with lots of neat
stuff, watch the game slow down, and people argue about the game mechanics for
it even more. The basic idea behind SR's 'all methods equal the same results'
approach is that there is more than one way to manipulate mana, but they all
manipulate the same mana, mana can only do certain things, and your method need
not limit which of mana's potential uses you can access. This makes sense to
me, I don't know why you have a problem with that. Hermetism and Shamanism
are only two of many possible approaches to manipulating 'magical' energies,
others could exist (psionics, for instance, or Vodoun, a variation on Amerind
shamanism). Perhaps, if you still dislike the way things are done (i.e. SR's
abstraction) you could offer an example of the way you would like things to
work? But as I see it, there are drawbacks to trying to make SR's systems
conform to varying magical traditions.

losthalo
Message no. 16
From: Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:43:23 -0400
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles R Joseph <arcaneacuity@****.COM>
>
> Frankly, the "everything's the same, it just looks different"
>approach Shadowrun takes toward magic steals the flavor from magic,
>making it stagnant. They put out all sorts of window dressing, but the
>house is still the same dusty house it's always been.
> Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

On the other hand... the fact that the outward appearance of the (meta)human
manipulation of mana is determined solely by the beliefs and background of
the (meta)human in question means that you can give magic any sort of
"flavor" you want, just by playing a character who sees and manipulates mana
in a way different form the norm. From a game design standpoint this is a
strong setup because a really broad range of types can be played using the
same mechanics with, at most, the creation of a few unique or
theme-related spells without the players having to either wait for the next,
"yea! it's the new shadowrun sourcebook with two new complete magic systems
so that I can play a slightly different type of spellcaster (ala rifts)" or
having the players spending much of their time developing systems of their
own (Some people have a compulsion to design massively complex and LONG
supplements of their own for any system regardless of how complex the base
is... they still will. The vague system prevents me form having to do the
same.)

<greg>
Grateful
Dead Shamans!?
Message no. 17
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:54:00 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-04 03:42:53 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET writes:

> > OK, but what's wrong with the Psionics concept given in Awakenings?
> > Isn't having it just be a subset of normal magic easier than coming up
> > with a completely different system?
>
> I wanted to allow for some variety with Psionics without creating an
> entirely new system for it. Thus, I came up with about 3 pages of rules
> and expansions to allow for some differences when using magic as psionics
> that follows the standard rules of magic, with a few exceptions. This
way,
> you can use Psionics in your campaign allowing someone the ability to use
> magic in a more stealthy manner, but still following the same basic rules
> for spellcasting.
>
I agree with reasons above, but I have to give another one. The games here
dealt heavily with "Space" for quite a while, and as magic didn't exist in
any form, especially the forms that are implied in Awakenings, a new system
or at the very least, a new explanation, was in order.
-K
Message no. 18
From: Charles R Joseph <arcaneacuity@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:42:40 -0400
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:43:23 -0400 Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU> writes:
>On the other hand... the fact that the outward appearance of the
>(meta)human manipulation of mana is determined solely by the beliefs and

>background of the (meta)human in question means that you can give magic
any sort of
>"flavor" you want, just by playing a character who sees and
>manipulates mana in a way different form the norm. From a game design
standpoint this
>is a strong setup because a really broad range of types can be played
using
>the same mechanics with, at most, the creation of a few unique or
>theme-related spells without the players having to either wait for the
>next, "yea! it's the new shadowrun sourcebook with two new complete
magic
>systems so that I can play a slightly different type of spellcaster (ala

>rifts)" or having the players spending much of their time developing
systems of
>their own (Some people have a compulsion to design massively complex and

>LONG supplements of their own for any system regardless of how complex
the
>base is... they still will. The vague system prevents me form having to
do
>the same.)

That gets back to the fact that psionics, classically, have
absolutely nothing to do with magic. They're the application of mind
over matter, the tapping of the huge portion of our brains that we don't
use.
Also, it seems some people have the theory that a=A! in their
subconscious while discussing this. I think there's enough room in
Shadowrun for ONE and ONLY ONE new form of magic with a significant
difference from the rest. I can't think, for the very life of me, what
could be done with classic magics that doesn't fall under one of the
three catagories (Hermatic, Shamanic, Psionic).
The main issue, for me, is that in a vast majority of fiction
references anything that's called psionics comes from a persons own mind,
and magic draws from something akin to mana. Psionics = magic simply
kills that.

Winter Wolfe Arcane
arcaneacuity@****.com

"When our hatred is violent, it sinks us even beneath those we hate."
Message no. 19
From: Charles R Joseph <arcaneacuity@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:29:40 -0400
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:33:48 -0500 "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117"
<KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
>Personally, I think that coming up with 'psionics' for SR isn't really
>that exciting an idea, but if people want it, fine. It makes a nice
'third
>tradition' for magic, a more modern tradition. But to say that we need
a
>separate game system for each new type of 'magic' is, well... not a
>good idea in such an abstract system. In Storyteller, sure, there's
hedge
>magic, Thaumaturgy Paths, mummy magic, Vicissitude, and many, many other

>types of magical abilities. If you want a detailed magic system with
lots of
>neat stuff, watch the game slow down, and people argue about the game
>mechanics for it even more. The basic idea behind SR's 'all methods
equal the same
>results' approach is that there is more than one way to manipulate mana,
but
>they all manipulate the same mana, mana can only do certain things, and
your
>method need not limit which of mana's potential uses you can access.
This makes
>sense to me, I don't know why you have a problem with that. Hermetism
and
>Shamanism are only two of many possible approaches to manipulating
'magical'
>energies, others could exist (psionics, for instance, or Vodoun, a
variation on
>Amerind shamanism). Perhaps, if you still dislike the way things are
done
>(i.e. SR's abstraction) you could offer an example of the way you would
like
>things to work? But as I see it, there are drawbacks to trying to make
SR's
>systems conform to varying magical traditions.
>
>losthalo

The way I see it, there should be three basic classifications of
"magic" in shadowrun. Hermatic (Logical, rational magic), Shamanic
(Spiritual, faith oriented magic), and Psionic (Mind over matter, very
little hocus-pocus). I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that
there should be a bit more difference than the way they look, and a few
modifiers here and there. Hermatic and Shamanisms similarity is
forgivable because they supposedly draw from the same mana, and because
they entered the world together. All other magic types pretty much fall
under one or the other.
However, it's my personal feelings that psionics should not have
anything to do with mana, or even really be considered magic. I'm not
asking for a whole new system with 40 to the tenth power charts and
diagrams...Officially, I'm not asking for anything, I'm just complaining
because I don't like the direction FASA went with something (and every
one of you has done the ame as some point, I'm sure). I just wish they
had put a little more thought into it, made it a little bit special, and
not copped out.
I can't say how I would have liked for it to have been
done...just that I would have liked for it to have had a flavor of it's
own. Quite a few other systems have both magic and psionics and succeed
in making psionics stand on it's own.
Of course, I may stand alone in this. Like I said, this is all
my own opinion and no one has to listen to it or do anything about it.

Winter Wolfe Arcane
arcaneacuity@****.com

"When our hatred is violent, it sinks us even beneath those we hate."
Message no. 20
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:09:57 -0500
>That gets back to the fact that psionics,
>classically, have absolutely nothing to do with
>magic. They're the application of mind over
>matter, the tapping of the huge portion of our
>brains that we don't use.

I've skipped almost all of this thread, so forgive
me if I'm covering old ground.

The problem I have with your statement is that
Psionics don't exist in 1997, but you want them
to in 2057, and yet have nothing to do with
magic? What, was there a separate awakening?

Psionics are simply the 20th century version of
legendary magic.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 21
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:40:02 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 18:50:48 EDT, you write:

> The problem I have with your statement is that
> Psionics don't exist in 1997, but you want them
> to in 2057, and yet have nothing to do with
> magic? What, was there a separate awakening?
>
> Psionics are simply the 20th century version of
> legendary magic.

Says you. I'm going to tread lightly, because this could turn into a messy
situation quite quickly, but psychic phenomenon are not tall tales,
delusions, or frauds (I even know a few people who work for some of those
psychic phone things). Psychic phenomena are real, documented, and
researchable. They just don't happen to be currently provable or tangible.
And as far as links to magic, there are very few people (that is, today,
right now, August 7th, 1997) who work magic without some hint of psychic
ability. Now, I know your sitting there saying, "this guy's a looney!" I'm
not. I'm pagan, we're worse. =) I've also seen the results of magic and
psychic phenomena, and I for one, can attest to the fact that they do exist.
Now, besides that, it's also possible that psionics as are traditionally
seen in roleplaying are a next evolutionary step for mankind. Which, in
essence, would be your second Awakening.

Wolfstar
Message no. 22
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:03:16 -0400
> From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
> Date: Thursday, August 07, 1997 3:40 AM

> In a message dated 97-08-06 18:50:48 EDT, you write:

> > The problem I have with your statement is that
> > Psionics don't exist in 1997, but you want them
> > to in 2057, and yet have nothing to do with
> > magic? What, was there a separate awakening?

> > Psionics are simply the 20th century version of
> > legendary magic.
>
> Says you. I'm going to tread lightly, because this could turn into a
messy
> situation quite quickly, but psychic phenomenon are not tall tales,
> delusions, or frauds (I even know a few people who work for some of those
> psychic phone things). Psychic phenomena are real, documented, and
> researchable. They just don't happen to be currently provable or
tangible.
> And as far as links to magic, there are very few people (that is, today,
> right now, August 7th, 1997) who work magic without some hint of psychic
> ability. Now, I know your sitting there saying, "this guy's a looney!"
I'm
> not. I'm pagan, we're worse. =) I've also seen the results of magic and
> psychic phenomena, and I for one, can attest to the fact that they do
exist.
> Now, besides that, it's also possible that psionics as are
traditionally
> seen in roleplaying are a next evolutionary step for mankind. Which, in
> essence, would be your second Awakening.

Okay, here's where I step in :) First, who cares about what real world
magick and psychic phenomena are today? Like the FAQ says, it don't matter
and don't bring it up. In Shadowrun, yes they do exist today, but with
great effort and weaker effects than in 205X. In Shadowrun, Psionics is
magic with a different flavor, using the same energy as all other magic.
That's it. That's what matters. There was one Awakening, not two. It's
just plain easier game mechanics-wise to place all magic (including
Psionics) under the same umbrella group and flavor each view/use of magic a
little differently. Thus, you use basically the same rules and save
everyone a lot of unnecessary hassle. House rules are certainly a valid
way of altering this, but that's the canon version of SR Psionics. Now, I
came up with a set of rules to expand on Psionics and treat them as a
seperate Tradition of magic. Thus, Psionics works the same as other magic,
with a few differences. Shamans are in tune with nature and work with
nature and its spirits. Hermetics bend and shape the energies of the
astral plane with their strength of mind and will, and bind the elementals
with their will as well. Psionics tend to use their magic more subtly than
the other Traditions, but use the same energy to the same ends, for the
most part. This, I feel, is a nice compromise between having Psionics
being non-descript and having no special flare, and coming up with a whole
new system for Psionics.

BTW: I am Pagan as well, and I can see where you are coming from, but just
don't feel it's relevant to the SR world.

> Wolfstar

Justin :)
Message no. 23
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:38:04 -0500
wolfstar wrote:
>I'm pagan, we're worse. =)
Justin wrote:
>BTW: I am Pagan as well <snip>
I reply:
Well, so am I <severly lapsed, but enought to
count>. And we all three disagree on Psionics
anyway :)

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 24
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:24:43 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 09:39:15 EDT, you write:

> wolfstar wrote:
> >I'm pagan, we're worse. =)
> Justin wrote:
> >BTW: I am Pagan as well <snip>
> I reply:
> Well, so am I <severly lapsed, but enought to
> count>. And we all three disagree on Psionics
> anyway :)
>

Of course. You should know the rule by now. Ask 10 different pagans what
they believe, and you'll get at least 25 different answers. =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 25
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:46:34 -0400
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, George Metz wrote:

->In a message dated 97-08-07 09:39:15 EDT, you write:
->
->> wolfstar wrote:
->> >I'm pagan, we're worse. =)
->> Justin wrote:
->> >BTW: I am Pagan as well <snip>
->> I reply:
->> Well, so am I <severly lapsed, but enought to
->> count>. And we all three disagree on Psionics
->> anyway :)
->>
->
-> Of course. You should know the rule by now. Ask 10 different pagans what
->they believe, and you'll get at least 25 different answers. =)
->
-> Wolfstar
->
Gee I don't know being an agnostic with strong athiestic tendencies
and married to a Neo Pagan Druid (She almost freaked when she found
out that Sr considered Druids to be a Shamanic trad) i have yet to get
any pagan to give me a straight answer on what they believe about
magic and "supernatural" phenomana(sp?). Politics yes, Social mores
yes, Economics yes, but nothing on religeon. I guess that's why the
Pagan religeons have such a hard time becoming accepted they don't
seem to believe anything.
Message no. 26
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:55:52 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 17:47:12 EDT, you write:

> -> Of course. You should know the rule by now. Ask 10 different pagans what
> ->they believe, and you'll get at least 25 different answers. =)
> ->
> Gee I don't know being an agnostic with strong athiestic tendencies
> and married to a Neo Pagan Druid (She almost freaked when she found
> out that Sr considered Druids to be a Shamanic trad) i have yet to get
> any pagan to give me a straight answer on what they believe about
> magic and "supernatural" phenomana(sp?). Politics yes, Social mores
> yes, Economics yes, but nothing on religeon. I guess that's why the
> Pagan religeons have such a hard time becoming accepted they don't
> seem to believe anything.

First, tell your wife that they're considered a Shamanic Tradition because
that's the closest fit. They're certainly not hermetics, and the only other
way to go would've been to put out an entire book on the Druidic Tradition -
obviously out of the question. Second, they probably give you as straight of
an answer as possible. It's an incredibly personal thing. I my beliefs about
such are exceptionally different from my mentor's beliefs. The pagan
religions have a hard time being accepted because they aren't organized
religions. As for magic and supernatural phenomena, fire away, but e-mail me
private when you do.

Wolfstar
Message no. 27
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:40:02 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 17:47:08 EDT, scollins@**.UML.EDU writes:

> Gee I don't know being an agnostic with strong athiestic tendencies
> and married to a Neo Pagan Druid (She almost freaked when she found
> out that Sr considered Druids to be a Shamanic trad) i have yet to get
> any pagan to give me a straight answer on what they believe about
> magic and "supernatural" phenomana(sp?). Politics yes, Social mores
> yes, Economics yes, but nothing on religeon. I guess that's why the
> Pagan religeons have such a hard time becoming accepted they don't
> seem to believe anything.
>
Not quite true. There are beliefs, they just don't need to be "brandished"
for all to see. Christianity (and so many of its variations) do so, and in
the process start problems because they all "believe" they are the "right
belief." Belief, like faith, has so many colors, so many variations.

A Pagan, a real one is probably not answering on one of two more or less
basic principles.

A) They are relatively "new" or "inexperienced" to the meanings of
the
"pagan" belief they are desiring, and thus are falling back on the idea of
"mystery leads to power."

or

B) They are probably a lot more comfortable with their inner feelings than
many "OUTWARD" individuals of the more "commonly accepted" religions
(read as
"Western Religions").

The above are not true for everything, but if you sit and think about what I
have said, you'll understand I hope.
-K
Message no. 28
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 02:33:54 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 20:40:50 EDT, you write:

> B) They are probably a lot more comfortable with their inner feelings than
> many "OUTWARD" individuals of the more "commonly accepted"
religions (read

> as
> "Western Religions").

Actually, I think you mean the New Religions - Christianity, Islam, and even
Judaism in it's current form. The Old Religions are European, and the Eastern
Religions are a whole 'nother ball of wax.

Wolfstar
Message no. 29
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:37:36 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 20:32:24 EDT, you write:

<< I guess that's why the Pagan religeons have such a hard time becoming
accepted they don't seem to believe anything. >>

Actually, The USA Air Force has pagan and wicca services, at least now they
do.

I also believe that since paganism seems to have been kept in the closet for
so long, traditions and beliefs have been confused, leading to different
sects or groups.

-Bandit
Message no. 30
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psionic Rules
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:18:39 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-08 07:01:12 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM (George Metz)
writes:

>
> Actually, I think you mean the New Religions - Christianity, Islam, and
> even
> Judaism in it's current form. The Old Religions are European, and the
> Eastern
> Religions are a whole 'nother ball of wax.
>
> Wolfstar
>
Yeah Yeah, that does sound a bit better.
-K

Further Reading

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