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Message no. 1
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: PSI: Pure of mind and body.
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 09:12:19 -0400
On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> Essentially, as long as you are pure of mind and body, you have PSI
> power. If your corrupt it (by cyberware or bioware), you can invade that
> purity and decrease your power.
> (I think it is too much of a pain to try to calculate what form
> of what cyber gives you what kind of losses. just use straight
> essence.)

Here we get into that question of where the power of the mind
comes from. For example, could a quadruple-amputee with whatever's left
below the next totally paralyzed muster up the same amount of brainpower
as a totally healthy, unmodified person with similar original
characteristics?
It seems to me that the creators of Shadowrun, probably just for
ease of gaming, decided to go with the whole-body idea. Though this puts
the few seriously crippled but non-cyber-enhanced people at a major
disadvanage in the game, it seems to make enough sense that it ain'
treally worth arguing about, _and_ it is so firmly entrenched in the
system that we should just follow it as-is.
(That's my long-winded way of saying you're right.)

> PSI POOL = WILLPOWER + MASTERY LEVEL
> The pure power of your mind give your the ability to psh extra power into
> your psionic ability. Tempered with a shake of expierience and training,
> it can make one a formidable foe.

Though this sounds like a lighly skewed English mistranslation
from one of the better Japanese Kung-Fu movies so popular in the
seventies, it needs -- NEEDS, I say! -- to be put in the rules
description. I didn't totally understand _any_ pool until I'd read the
story in the back of VR, wherein somebody had "put all of their talent
and experience" into an action.

> METAPSIONIC POWER (you can get it at initiation)
> FORCE OF WILL
> A Master with this power frees his mind totally from the confines
> of his body, no longer relying on it as a source of power. A Psi
> with this skill has a PSI RATING equal to his WILLPOWER (ie,
> ignores ESSENCE totally).
>
> (essentially, this is Darth Vader, who had lots of cords in him
> and can still whoop some ass)
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> Now, FORCE OF WILL is put up as a ROLE-PLAYING and realistic device, not
> so much as a munchkin device, and I would appreciate it if you would
> apprach it as such (ie, don't thwap me too hard).

*light THWAP with gummy bears afterwards*

I like the idea, though I see major potential for abuse here. We
need to make sure that this is the _most_ powerful Initiate-type
thingamajigger avaliable, and can only be taken by those who've put
themselves at a major disadvantage in other areas (like attributes, which
would make sense.) That way, if the GM gives the person a "break" and
twists things to make a Munchkin character, it ain't totally the fault of
the player _or_ the system.
Message no. 2
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Pure of mind and body.
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 09:05:57 -0600
>On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> Essentially, as long as you are pure of mind and body, you have PSI
> power. If your corrupt it (by cyberware or bioware), you can invade that
> purity and decrease your power.
> (I think it is too much of a pain to try to calculate what form
> of what cyber gives you what kind of losses. just use straight
> essence.)

Jai Tao writes:
>> Here we get into that question of where the power of the mind
>>comes from. For example, could a quadruple-amputee with whatever's left
>>below the next totally paralyzed muster up the same amount of brainpower
>>as a totally healthy, unmodified person with similar original
>>characteristics?
[and much more deleted...]

FASA may have used the whole body concept to ease game play, but PSI is
mind related, not body. An unfortunate amputee should, if the mind is
clear and focused, be able to accomplish as much as a "normal" PSI. I
realize that trying to compute essence loss by impact on the mind (brain)
instead of the whole body is difficult, but it is necessary for consistency
of the rules we are creating, IMHO...

> PSI POOL = WILLPOWER + MASTERY LEVEL
> The pure power of your mind give your the ability to psh extra power into
> your psionic ability. Tempered with a shake of expierience and training,
> it can make one a formidable foe.

>> Though this sounds like a lighly skewed English mistranslation
>>from one of the better Japanese Kung-Fu movies so popular in the
>>seventies, it needs -- NEEDS, I say! -- to be put in the rules
>>description. I didn't totally understand _any_ pool until I'd read the
>>story in the back of VR, wherein somebody had "put all of their talent
>>and experience" into an action.

Is not the "pure power of the mind" also influenced or shaped by the
INT of the indivual?? I agree that WIL is a big part, but I can't see
someone with the IQ of a turnip being all that effective a PSI...Wild
PSI maybe, but not effective...
Again, I'll add this pool: [(INT+WIL)/2]+MASTERY LEVEL=PSI POOL....

> METAPSIONIC POWER (you can get it at initiation)
> FORCE OF WILL
> A Master with this power frees his mind totally from the confines
> of his body, no longer relying on it as a source of power. A Psi
[much deleted again...]
> Now, FORCE OF WILL is put up as a ROLE-PLAYING and realistic device, not
> so much as a munchkin device, and I would appreciate it if you would
> apprach it as such (ie, don't thwap me too hard).

>> I like the idea, though I see major potential for abuse here. We
>>need to make sure that this is the _most_ powerful Initiate-type
>>thingamajigger avaliable, and can only be taken by those who've put
>>themselves at a major disadvantage in other areas (like attributes, which
>>would make sense.) [and more deleted...]

Allow for a gradual progression of Initiate abilities by making them
interdependent on each other. What I mean is that you cannot progress to
certain Mastery abilities before you recieve the prerequisites. So at each
Mastery level, you can pick up certain abilities not available previously.
This would reflect the growth in both skill and power of the Master. I
don't think it would be too complicated to say:" At mastery level 0 you
may learn Astral Perception, at mastery level 1 you may learn Astral
Projection, at m.l. 2 you may learn MetaMorphic Healing....you can of
course make the ability list at each mastery level as long as you wish.
You allow Force of Will around Mastery level 4 or 5, along with things
like PSIMELD [where PSI's can Link their powers-sorta like Ritual Sorcery]
and MINDWIPE [where the PSI can Edit your memories...or insert others...]

An alternate idea is to allow the PSI to learn Mastery abilities related
to his Disciplines only. If he is a specialized TK PSI, it should be harder
, if not impossible for the PSI to learn a Mastery Ability related to
cyberpsionics [I think that's what Hayden called PSI in the Matrix]-
cause he hasn't the training to build the Mastery Ability on...

Or maybe we can combine the two... Their not mutually exclusive ideas...

Bryan Prince
Message no. 3
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Pure of mind and body.
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 16:03:26 +0100
On Fri, 15 Jul 1994, Jai Tao wrote:

> *light THWAP with gummy bears afterwards*

Thanks :-)

> I like the idea, though I see major potential for abuse here. We
> need to make sure that this is the _most_ powerful Initiate-type
> thingamajigger avaliable, and can only be taken by those who've put
> themselves at a major disadvantage in other areas (like attributes, which
> would make sense.) That way, if the GM gives the person a "break" and
> twists things to make a Munchkin character, it ain't totally the fault of
> the player _or_ the system.

Well, instead of making kludgy rules for attributes or something, how
about we just make it difficul to get through one or more of the
following:
A) High Karmic costs
B) Other meta-abilities required first
C) Specific Disciplines needed
D) Minimum Mastery level needed (say 3?)


____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 4
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Pure of mind and body.
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 16:13:32 +0100
On Fri, 15 Jul 1994, Bryan Prince wrote:

> FASA may have used the whole body concept to ease game play, but PSI is
> mind related, not body. An unfortunate amputee should, if the mind is
> clear and focused, be able to accomplish as much as a "normal" PSI. I
> realize that trying to compute essence loss by impact on the mind (brain)
> instead of the whole body is difficult, but it is necessary for consistency
> of the rules we are creating, IMHO...

It's not just difficult, it's IMPOSSIBLE. I might install hand razors,
but there is still a cybernetic link to control them and that effect the
nervous system. There is still a foreign body implanted in my body, and
that effect essence and everything else.

> Is not the "pure power of the mind" also influenced or shaped by the
> INT of the indivual?? I agree that WIL is a big part, but I can't see
> someone with the IQ of a turnip being all that effective a PSI...Wild
> PSI maybe, but not effective...
> Again, I'll add this pool: [(INT+WIL)/2]+MASTERY LEVEL=PSI POOL....

Actually, I thought long and hard on this, until I remember a Twilight
Zone or similiar show I once saw. It was about a retarded boy that was
confined to a wheelchair. Every night his mother would tuck him in and
he would mumble an incoherent goodnight and she would leave. Then, he
woudl sit up in bed and objects from around his room would levitate over
and he'd be able to make them dance around and entertain himself purely
by telekinesis. (Of course, in the morning everything would be back to
normal and mum was none the wiser :-)

Intelligence can be important, but is it important enough in this case?
I really don't think so. You pool is the ability to pump extra power
into something, and that power for a Psi is willpower.

> Allow for a gradual progression of Initiate abilities by making them
> interdependent on each other. What I mean is that you cannot progress to
> certain Mastery abilities before you recieve the prerequisites. So at each
> Mastery level, you can pick up certain abilities not available previously.
> This would reflect the growth in both skill and power of the Master. I
> don't think it would be too complicated to say:" At mastery level 0 you
> may learn Astral Perception, at mastery level 1 you may learn Astral
> Projection, at m.l. 2 you may learn MetaMorphic Healing....you can of
> course make the ability list at each mastery level as long as you wish.
> You allow Force of Will around Mastery level 4 or 5, along with things
> like PSIMELD [where PSI's can Link their powers-sorta like Ritual Sorcery]
> and MINDWIPE [where the PSI can Edit your memories...or insert others...]

Much of this makes sense, although in some respects it sounds ##&#ish.
(At 5th level you get CLIMB STAIRS and 7th level you get CLIMB WALLS at
10th level you get CLIMB AIR). It's somethign that must be watched.

> An alternate idea is to allow the PSI to learn Mastery abilities related
> to his Disciplines only. If he is a specialized TK PSI, it should be harder
> , if not impossible for the PSI to learn a Mastery Ability related to
> cyberpsionics [I think that's what Hayden called PSI in the Matrix]-
> cause he hasn't the training to build the Mastery Ability on...

That' also makes sense, although it is important to remember that one can
learn new disciplines later on (by chucking karma into it). Or at least
Full Psis can.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 5
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: Pure of mind and body. (fwd)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 1994 12:29:39 +0100
Sent to just me

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 1994 00:21:16 -0500
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu>
To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: PSI: Pure of mind and body.

(On no restrictions for cyber for Psis)

How about just having it halve the penalties for the cyber? This
would give the same Darth Vader effect (if you can increase your Psi rating
with "initiation, at least...), while still giving a reason not to use
cyber anyway...

Make sense?

Maybe you could overcome the loss of 1 essence per level of this
thing that you got...and you could get 1 per Mastery Level above 3, or
something of the sort...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"

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