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Message no. 1
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Psychic or Magic
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:09:02 +0000
Another quickie <g>

Certain alleged abilities of people today are covered loosely by the
term Psychic.

Things like precognition, second sight, telekinsesis etc. Also, we have
"allegedly" ghosts.

I allow certain creatures and people (read civilians) to have "special
powers" occassionaly. It's rare and my players have only met one person
with an ability beyond the norm. However, it's something that I find
curious.

In SR terms, certain things can be explained as "magic" and just
shuffled under the carpet. Other things, like telekinesis, pyrokinesis
etc can also be given the "it's magic" tag and swept into a corner to
rot. But there are undoubtedly people with strange abilities in the
world.

I've considered writing house rules to cover this, but it's a thing I
don't really want to undertake (for obvious reasons). What I was
wondering - assuming any others have implimented similar things in their
campaigns is how it is explained.

Are mental abilities psychic or magic.

If magic, is it treated as a form of Adept skill, or would it be treated
much like a wildcard. The person with the ability(ies) is magically
aware but only in a very limited form, and would this form of awakening
come under he adept or one of the broader traditions like Shamanism,
hermetic blah, blah. And would the effects be elemental or more
standard magical effects. (If magical, how could the lack of need for
LOS be explained?)

If psychic, how could the effects be explained, natural manipulation or
something more paranormal?

Ghosts. Does anyone use such a thing. Are ghosts - spirits, or a
manifestation of a strong emotional situation? If spirits, could they
be controlled/summoned (much like a (pre)pubescent child and
poltergeists (psychic abilities or manifestation of something else?) If
a manifestation of an emotional nature would this work as a background
count to the area, or something else?

Oh, and a bunch of other questions I'll probably field later on. :)

I am aware of the alternative universe stuff that's around, and have
used some of the Ianus books to "interesting" effect in my games, but I
am at this time more concerned with the "normal" paranormal effects
experienced in today's world.

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 2
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:57:31 -0500
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:09:02 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:

<<Are mental abilities psychic or magic.>>


Err... yes, they are:) I've heard it said (well, seen it typed, actually)
that the only difference between psionics and magic is that a scientist
who proposes the former to other scientists doesn't (necessarily) get
laughed out of the room. In Shadowrun, this is especially true, assuming
you use the optional rules for psionicism in Awakenings.


<<If magic, is it treated as a form of Adept skill, or would it be
treated much like a wildcard.>>


I'd say it's a form of 'adeptitude.'


<<The person with the ability(ies) is magically aware but only in a very
limited form, and would this form of awakening come under he adept or one
of the broader traditions like Shamanism, hermetic blah, blah.>>


Any magically active character may follow any brand of magic, or make up
his own as suits the need of the character.


<<And would the effects be elemental or more standard magical effects.
(If magical, how could the lack of need for LOS be explained?)>>


Depends a bit on what you're looking for: while I don't know of any
manipulation that allows you directly target something you can't see, I
see no reason you couldn't create one that did. Conversely, the idea that
a DM *has* to have an elemental effect doesn't entirely make sense to me,
either. It smells of game balance to me... And there's always the 'nobody
really knows how magic works, so something that doesn't make obvious
sense shouldn't matter' type of excuse :)


<<If psychic, how could the effects be explained, natural manipulation or
something more paranormal?>>


In Shadowrun? That's a darn good question. (If it's not magical, and it's
not mundane... What the frag is it?!) I would suspect that many such
'psychics' would be termed as natural manipulators of magical energy in
SR.


<<Ghosts. Does anyone use such a thing. Are ghosts - spirits, or a
manifestation of a strong emotional situation?>>


Both. "Ghosts" are a form of spirit born out the ether in areas where
some event has greatly impressed itself on astral space. (this is IMO,
since I don't feel like checking to see what the BBB actually says right
now)


<<If spirits, could they be controlled/summoned (much like a
(pre)pubescent child and poltergeists (psychic abilities or manifestation
of something else?)>>


Possibly, although since ghosts are etheric in nature, it may be like
trying to deal with a free watcher. IMO, I don't think you can
successfully control such a spirit. You could 'summon' it, but only to
get info from it and then only if it feels like cooperating.


<<If a manifestation of an emotional nature would this work as a
background count to the area, or something else?>>


More likely, the background would add to it, but I doubt that a ghost
would add to the BGC itself.




Canthros
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:21:37 -0700
Avenger wrote:
/
/ Are mental abilities psychic or magic.

All IMHO :)

To answer your question: yes. :)

I view magic in general as being similar to quantum physics, in that
it can simultaneously have more than one property. Until it's
perceived it could be either. When it's observed it becomes one or
the other. The bias of the person(s) observing a magical event
decides the outcome.

A magical event could be either magic or psychic.

Magic in SR is defined in a large part by belief, both of the
individual and the community. As it stands now there are two major
camps of philosophy, hermeticism and shamanism. And then there are a
subgroups of philosophy: physical adepts, voodoo, druids, blood
magic, etc. But the overiding belief is that magic is.. well,
magic. That belief defines magic.

When an individual manipulates magic energies his will shapes that
energy to match his beliefs.

Now, having said that, magic has favored forms. A magical event
can't be defined any which way you want. It prefers to be conform to
the beliefs of the community. Ergo, shamanism and hermeticism define
to a large extent what's possible with magic.

However, a strong belief in psychic phenomena also exists, so that
makes it possible. There are people with mental abilities that do
not fit the mold of hermetic or shamanic definitions. But, IMHO,
it's still magic.

On the same subject, there are a few individuals in my game with a
strong enough will to consciously or unconsciously shape magic to
meet their own beliefs.

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:08:53 -0500
On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 01:09:02AM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> Another quickie <g>
>
> Certain alleged abilities of people today are covered loosely by the
> term Psychic.
>
> Things like precognition, second sight, telekinsesis etc. Also, we have
> "allegedly" ghosts.
>
> I allow certain creatures and people (read civilians) to have "special
> powers" occassionaly. It's rare and my players have only met one person
> with an ability beyond the norm. However, it's something that I find
> curious.
>
> In SR terms, certain things can be explained as "magic" and just
> shuffled under the carpet. Other things, like telekinesis, pyrokinesis
> etc can also be given the "it's magic" tag and swept into a corner to
> rot. But there are undoubtedly people with strange abilities in the
> world.
>
> I've considered writing house rules to cover this, but it's a thing I
> don't really want to undertake (for obvious reasons). What I was
> wondering - assuming any others have implimented similar things in their
> campaigns is how it is explained.
>
> Are mental abilities psychic or magic.
>
In awakenings, psi powers are mentioned to be just adepts with
mental blocks. I use this idea (adds more Roleplaying and less numbers)
or occasionally allow the whole edges/flaws single spell idea.
As a rule, I use it for occasional NPC's, and I believe I've only
had one PC do something similiar to date. Its easier to built
on an existing framework and embellish with character, then have
a whole new set of rules.



<SNIP>
>
> If psychic, how could the effects be explained, natural manipulation or
> something more paranormal?
>
> Ghosts. Does anyone use such a thing. Are ghosts - spirits, or a
> manifestation of a strong emotional situation? If spirits, could they
> be controlled/summoned (much like a (pre)pubescent child and
> poltergeists (psychic abilities or manifestation of something else?) If
> a manifestation of an emotional nature would this work as a background
> count to the area, or something else?
>
I use spirits or a person unknowingly manifesting their magic/adept
powers. There are some mentions of ancestor's spirits in Cyberpirates,
but they stick within the rules fairly well.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 5
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:24:40 +0000
In article <199801131421.HAA01341@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>Avenger wrote:
>/
>/ Are mental abilities psychic or magic.
>
>All IMHO :)
>
>To answer your question: yes. :)

Why thanks, that's so much better. You're sayng it's both? :)

>I view magic in general as being similar to quantum physics,

bleuch. Sorry, I have no knowledge of Quantum Physics and I'm too old
to want to bother learning. :) My grounding in quantum anything is pure
Star Trek technobabble.

>in that
>it can simultaneously have more than one property. Until it's
>perceived it could be either. When it's observed it becomes one or
>the other. The bias of the person(s) observing a magical event
>decides the outcome.

Right. I'll go away and think on that statement. :)

>A magical event could be either magic or psychic.
>
>magic, etc. But the overiding belief is that magic is.. well,
>magic. That belief defines magic.

And belief is a powerful thing, that's not a surprise. It's just that
explaining psychic abilities "conversing with ghosts", possession, etc,
being blandly thrown away as "magical manifestation down to
interpretation" is "annoying" to me, and probably likely to cause a few
comments from my players. :)

>When an individual manipulates magic energies his will shapes that
>energy to match his beliefs.

As indicated in some sections of the texts from SR (I think) I can see
how in different cultures and possibly even religions "magic" might be
interpreted and experienced in a different way. The middle east likely
sees magic as something completely different to the US. Especially were
so much of their traditional "magic" stories and legends centre around
genies and suchlike.

>However, a strong belief in psychic phenomena also exists, so that
>makes it possible. There are people with mental abilities that do
>not fit the mold of hermetic or shamanic definitions. But, IMHO,
>it's still magic.

Yeah, and that's the bit I don't like much. Not trying to be awkward,
but IMO it'd be nice to have something not able to be thrown into the
general morass of "it's magic". That's such a cop out. <sorry> :)

>On the same subject, there are a few individuals in my game with a
>strong enough will to consciously or unconsciously shape magic to
>meet their own beliefs.

I was considering two planes of thought. The magical "astral" methods,
and a lower level of existence or Pyschic level. One working Astral and
the other working from a plane below that, not able to tap into the
power awarded magicians and shamans, but with abilities unique to
themselves. Something that might even make a mage jump occassionally,
becuase it can't be "found" as easily as their own traditions. I get
kinda creamed off at the mage meets mage, astralperceptionspelldefence
killer stuff. So I thought something different, that doesn't figure into
the normal sphere of magical influence might be a refreshing threat for
mages et al. Explaining it as "magic" means everything in the magic
realm can be used to combat/counter/investigate it. Mages could be
paranormal/natural investigators/exorcists/whatever. Don't like it. :(

I can see where you're coming from with what you've said, and it makes
sense, it just - well, I'm not confortable labelling every "unusual"
event as a manifestation of magic. It's so bleuch. :) And with the
abilities of mages in SR, results in "counter-action" being a relative
simplicity.

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 6
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:32:46 +0000
In article <19980113110853.53259@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
<decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 01:09:02AM +0000, Avenger wrote:
>> Another quickie <g>
>> Are mental abilities psychic or magic.
>>
>In awakenings, psi powers are mentioned to be just adepts with
>mental blocks. I use this idea (adds more Roleplaying and less numbers)

That's the biggie, less numbers. I'm looking for something a little
different to throw at the mage character, and rather than jsut fudge it
around on threat value or simple scare tactics, I was thinking of using
something that in the real world holds scepticism, belief and curiosity
within it's realm. People dedicated to research in psychic abilities
exist in today's world as well as the ill-fated alleged CIA experiments
with "far sight"

>had one PC do something similiar to date. Its easier to built
>on an existing framework and embellish with character, then have
>a whole new set of rules.

That's basically what I want to avoid. Writing new rules just to cover
something that's not likely to hold a big place in the game would be a
waste of my valuable time <g> but it looks like I might have to. :(

I don't really want to involve something like this in a game, only to
fudge it off totally with a "it just is" type statement to my players,
they deserve more than that. And I'm not too happy with the "it's magic
so there" explanation. (They won't be either).

>> poltergeists (psychic abilities or manifestation of something else?) If
>> a manifestation of an emotional nature would this work as a background
>> count to the area, or something else?
>>
>I use spirits or a person unknowingly manifesting their magic/adept
>powers. There are some mentions of ancestor's spirits in Cyberpirates,
>but they stick within the rules fairly well.

Not read that yet, I've had a browse through it but I'm still ploughing
through Rigger 2, Earthforce Sourcebook, BGC: Before & After and
Firestorm: Shockwave at the mo'. <so much to read, and so few hours in a
day - sigh>

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 7
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:12:43 +0000
In article <19980113.055741.13742.0.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:09:02 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
>writes:
>
><<Are mental abilities psychic or magic.>>
>
>Err... yes, they are:) I've heard it said (well, seen it typed, actually)
>that the only difference between psionics and magic is that a scientist
>who proposes the former to other scientists doesn't (necessarily) get
>laughed out of the room. In Shadowrun, this is especially true, assuming
>you use the optional rules for psionicism in Awakenings.

Too limiting. Page 23 is a text from someone saying it's _all_ psi
power, and page 104, calls him a liar, and it's all magic, just
interpretation.

I was looking for something different than "it's magic" and sweeping it
under the carpet with the usual bluster.

><<If magic, is it treated as a form of Adept skill, or would it be
>treated much like a wildcard.>>
>
>I'd say it's a form of 'adeptitude.'

I thought so as well. The only problem I have with that is introducing
yet another "adept" class. I can see how it could be, but I don't know,
it just sit right in my gut.

>limited form, and would this form of awakening come under he adept or one
>of the broader traditions like Shamanism, hermetic blah, blah.>>
>
>Any magically active character may follow any brand of magic, or make up
>his own as suits the need of the character.

Page 104 of Awakenings says "all known psychics are hernmetic", a
statement I don't totally agree with. (hence the question). I was
initially tempted to keep it unique, but a number of problems exist with
that - game mechanics wise. It might be curious to have a "psychic"
character working with a team, rather than a form of magician. I guess
I'll have to play about with it, until something works, SR doesn't
really cover it very well, from what little I've found. Not suprising
really, and I don't expect that to change in the future, this is more of
a personal thing.

><<And would the effects be elemental or more standard magical effects.
>(If magical, how could the lack of need for LOS be explained?)>>
>
>Depends a bit on what you're looking for:

The ability to affect something without seeing it. For instance, the
character has been in a room, noted the articles in it, and later
decides to play a trick against the occupant. Int he near neighbourhood
(say across the street) the character picks up one or two items use
telekinesis and "moves" then around. As a pyschic power it wouldn't
leave the same traces on the astral as "normal" magic, and would produce
slightly different effects. Things like Pyrokinesis requires that there
is LOS. Can't burn something if you can't see it sort of thing.

>while I don't know of any
>manipulation that allows you directly target something you can't see, I
>see no reason you couldn't create one that did. Conversely, the idea that
>a DM *has* to have an elemental effect doesn't entirely make sense to me,
>either. It smells of game balance to me...

Agreed. game balance seems the most likely. To give you an idea of what
gave me the idea, is the abilities of old programs like "The Tomorrow
People" (not the more recent crap that came about, but the 70's series)
without teleportation. <g> PsiCops from B5 and a few other literary
sources. I just like the idea of a character being able to have certain
psychic abilities, crafted in at creation, rather than being forced to
follow a "magical" tradition and all that implies.

>And there's always the 'nobody
>really knows how magic works, so something that doesn't make obvious
>sense shouldn't matter' type of excuse :)

Yeah. I hate that though. And it's gotta be frustrating for players to
hear it. :)

><<If psychic, how could the effects be explained, natural manipulation or
>something more paranormal?>>
>
>In Shadowrun? That's a darn good question.

Gee, thanks.

>(If it's not magical, and it's
>not mundane... What the frag is it?!)

I thought I was asking the questions? :)

>I would suspect that many such
>'psychics' would be termed as natural manipulators of magical energy in
>SR.

The general hint in Awakenings is such, and then it goes on to say it's
just magic with the person in denial. I just don't like that
explanation much... :) Oh it's magic, so there... <yawn>

><<Ghosts. Does anyone use such a thing. Are ghosts - spirits, or a
>manifestation of a strong emotional situation?>>
>
>Both. "Ghosts" are a form of spirit born out the ether in areas where
>some event has greatly impressed itself on astral space.

Interesting. Yeah, I can see how this could work, I'll throw one at my
players at some point and see how it works out. <g>

>(this is IMO,
>since I don't feel like checking to see what the BBB actually says right
>now)

Can't find mine :(

><<If spirits, could they be controlled/summoned (much like a
>(pre)pubescent child and poltergeists (psychic abilities or manifestation
>of something else?)>>
>
>Possibly, although since ghosts are etheric in nature, it may be like
>trying to deal with a free watcher. IMO, I don't think you can
>successfully control such a spirit. You could 'summon' it, but only to
>get info from it and then only if it feels like cooperating.

A more irritating form of irritating. :) Hmmm, nah that'd be too nasty.

><<If a manifestation of an emotional nature would this work as a
>background count to the area, or something else?>>
>
>More likely, the background would add to it, but I doubt that a ghost
>would add to the BGC itself.

Didn't think of that. The background count of an area suffering an
"event" adding to the strength of the "ghost". Yeah, I like that. :)
As regards the "ghost" adding to the count, this could be explained
possibly over a period of time - certain "haunted" areas hold a greater
feeling of dread and ill-feeling than others, and over time that
reputation climbs and more events occur - whether that's just
convenience and the expectations of the visitor is debateable, but it
might, over time, increase the count, and power of the ghost. I don't
know though, I think you're probably closer to the truth by not having
the ghost add to the count.


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 8
From: Glenn Robb <GLENNROBB@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:00:22 -0700
<snipped off everything>

If you guys and gals think this discussion is going no where, you should see
the argument on the Starshield Listserv. It's just as bad.

— Elton Robb
Message no. 9
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:03:50 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 04:24:40AM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> In article <199801131421.HAA01341@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
> <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
> >Avenger wrote:
> >/
> >/ Are mental abilities psychic or magic.
> >
> >All IMHO :)
> >
> >To answer your question: yes. :)
>
> Why thanks, that's so much better. You're sayng it's both? :)
>
> >I view magic in general as being similar to quantum physics,
>
> bleuch. Sorry, I have no knowledge of Quantum Physics and I'm too old
> to want to bother learning. :) My grounding in quantum anything is pure
> Star Trek technobabble.
>
> >in that
> >it can simultaneously have more than one property. Until it's
> >perceived it could be either. When it's observed it becomes one or
> >the other. The bias of the person(s) observing a magical event
> >decides the outcome.
>
> Right. I'll go away and think on that statement. :)
>
> >A magical event could be either magic or psychic.
> >
> >magic, etc. But the overiding belief is that magic is.. well,
> >magic. That belief defines magic.
>
> And belief is a powerful thing, that's not a surprise. It's just that
> explaining psychic abilities "conversing with ghosts", possession, etc,
> being blandly thrown away as "magical manifestation down to
> interpretation" is "annoying" to me, and probably likely to cause a
few
> comments from my players. :)
>
> >When an individual manipulates magic energies his will shapes that
> >energy to match his beliefs.
>
> As indicated in some sections of the texts from SR (I think) I can see
> how in different cultures and possibly even religions "magic" might be
> interpreted and experienced in a different way. The middle east likely
> sees magic as something completely different to the US. Especially were
> so much of their traditional "magic" stories and legends centre around
> genies and suchlike.
>
This has been seen in a couple of Challenge Magazines, and
in one of Kenson's articles (The Many masks of Magic). One reason
I enjoy shadowrun is the flexibility of the magic system.
If you want a character to be psychic, my suggestions would
either be use the Edges and Flaws system, or let the "Psychic"
be a sorcery adept, with only a limited number of modified spells.
His not being able to effect LOS, could be handled with clairvoyance
spell etc. SR is a relatively classless system, and I think that
is one of its strengths. If you try to add in Psychics (I've seen
Mental Adepts, Telepath adepts etc), it seems to just add more
rules. I let my players design the characters according to the rules
and RPG the rest. I've had characters who argued with others that
spirits didn't exist, because their "magic" wouldn't let them see them,
etc. This is all IMHO of course and can be ignored at your leisure.
I'm hoping Kenson may comment, since psionics were first mentioned
in Awakenings, but SR seems to treat them as a magic.
Later.

<ANOTHER HUGE SNIP>

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:06:12 -0700
Avenger wrote:
/
/ In article <199801131421.HAA01341@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
/ <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
/ >Avenger wrote:
/ >/
/ >/ Are mental abilities psychic or magic.
/ >
/ >All IMHO :)
/ >
/ >To answer your question: yes. :)
/
/ Why thanks, that's so much better. You're sayng it's both? :)
/
/ >I view magic in general as being similar to quantum physics,
/
/ bleuch. Sorry, I have no knowledge of Quantum Physics and I'm too old
/ to want to bother learning. :) My grounding in quantum anything is pure
/ Star Trek technobabble.

Okay, here's a quick lesson :) Light (I think :) acts as both an
energy wave and as particles. When this was discovered everyone
thought it was a paradox. But it turns out that on the
atomic/subatomic level everything is hunky dory. The weird thing is
that if you go looking for particles, you find particles. If you go
looking for a wave, you find a wave. But because of our methods of
observation you can't see both at the same time.

/ And belief is a powerful thing, that's not a surprise. It's just that
/ explaining psychic abilities "conversing with ghosts", possession, etc,
/ being blandly thrown away as "magical manifestation down to
/ interpretation" is "annoying" to me, and probably likely to cause a few
/ comments from my players. :)

Erg. I can see why it gets confusing. Spells focus and shape
magical energy. Ghosts do not. Ghosts are a lifeform of some sort.
I don't know if they're the spirit of the dead person or if they're
created or summoned by an emotional death. They are truely funky and
best left to GM judgement, IMHO.

I treat them as living emotional energies. On a few occasions they
really are the trapped spirit of an individual, but that's pretty
rare in my game.

/ >However, a strong belief in psychic phenomena also exists, so that
/ >makes it possible. There are people with mental abilities that do
/ >not fit the mold of hermetic or shamanic definitions. But, IMHO,
/ >it's still magic.
/
/ Yeah, and that's the bit I don't like much. Not trying to be awkward,
/ but IMO it'd be nice to have something not able to be thrown into the
/ general morass of "it's magic". That's such a cop out. <sorry> :)
/
/ >On the same subject, there are a few individuals in my game with a
/ >strong enough will to consciously or unconsciously shape magic to
/ >meet their own beliefs.
/
/ I can see where you're coming from with what you've said, and it makes
/ sense, it just - well, I'm not confortable labelling every "unusual"
/ event as a manifestation of magic. It's so bleuch. :) And with the
/ abilities of mages in SR, results in "counter-action" being a relative
/ simplicity.

Let's see if I can define my philosophy better :)

There is a single source of for spells and psychic phenomena. I've
been calling it magic, but lets call it... vae. Vae is what's shaped
by mages into spells. Vae is where physical adepts draw their energy
from. Vae is what shamans call on to cast their spells. Vae is what
fuels psychic's abilities. Vae is to astral beings what sunlight is
to us.

Vae is the source. But it doesn't define the outcome. Spells are
magic. Psychic abilities are not magic. PA abilities are... heck I
don't know what they are. Critter abilities are not magic, they are
an extension of the critter just like your hand is an extension of
you.

Vae is just another form of basic energy in the universe, like
gravity, magnetism, etc. It can be, and is, used for many different
purposes.

If you think this is hurting your head you should check out
Einstein's thought experiment for gravity and acceleration (did you
know that they're both the same thing and that the shortest distance
between two points is a curved line? :)

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:09:46 -0700
Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ > As indicated in some sections of the texts from SR (I think) I can see
/ > how in different cultures and possibly even religions "magic" might be
/ > interpreted and experienced in a different way. The middle east likely
/ > sees magic as something completely different to the US. Especially were
/ > so much of their traditional "magic" stories and legends centre around
/ > genies and suchlike.
/ >
/ This has been seen in a couple of Challenge Magazines, and
/ in one of Kenson's articles (The Many masks of Magic). One reason
/ I enjoy shadowrun is the flexibility of the magic system.
/ If you want a character to be psychic, my suggestions would
/ either be use the Edges and Flaws system, or let the "Psychic"
/ be a sorcery adept, with only a limited number of modified spells.
/ His not being able to effect LOS, could be handled with clairvoyance
/ spell etc. SR is a relatively classless system, and I think that
/ is one of its strengths. If you try to add in Psychics (I've seen
/ Mental Adepts, Telepath adepts etc), it seems to just add more
/ rules. I let my players design the characters according to the rules
/ and RPG the rest. I've had characters who argued with others that
/ spirits didn't exist, because their "magic" wouldn't let them see them,
/ etc. This is all IMHO of course and can be ignored at your leisure.
/ I'm hoping Kenson may comment, since psionics were first mentioned
/ in Awakenings, but SR seems to treat them as a magic.

I'd have character's purchase psychic abilities as edges. I'd use
the spell rules to define them. And I'd lower the drain
considerably. Keep in mind that while a mage can learn new spells a
psychic is pretty much stuck with what he's got. Play with it until
it feels right for your game and then go for it :)

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 12
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:50:30 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 04:32:46AM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> In article <19980113110853.53259@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
> <decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
> >On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 01:09:02AM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> >> Another quickie <g>
> >> Are mental abilities psychic or magic.
> >>
> >In awakenings, psi powers are mentioned to be just adepts with
> >mental blocks. I use this idea (adds more Roleplaying and less numbers)
>
> That's the biggie, less numbers. I'm looking for something a little
> different to throw at the mage character, and rather than jsut fudge it
> around on threat value or simple scare tactics, I was thinking of using
> something that in the real world holds scepticism, belief and curiosity
> within it's realm. People dedicated to research in psychic abilities
> exist in today's world as well as the ill-fated alleged CIA experiments
> with "far sight"

Works for me. I would suggest, if its just NPC's with psychics, don't
worry about the rule set. Villians are suppose to be unusual.
If you plan on allowing a PC psychic, you may have to
write out some base rules. Which spells are allowed, their
new limitations, etc.

>
> >had one PC do something similiar to date. Its easier to built
> >on an existing framework and embellish with character, then have
> >a whole new set of rules.
>
<SNIP>
>
> I don't really want to involve something like this in a game, only to
> fudge it off totally with a "it just is" type statement to my players,
> they deserve more than that. And I'm not too happy with the "it's magic
> so there" explanation. (They won't be either).
>
Depends on the players. Most of mine, don't mind alittle strageness
etc with the NPC's, they enjoy it usually, because they can't
always be prepared. With PC's, its a bit different, but I've
let my players occasionally play some odd traditions (The Jedi Knight)
without too much trouble, and rule writing down. My player actually
did most of the work (write up etc), and had the mindset down to a T.
It didn't unbalance play, and more the once broke us down into
fits of laughter. (Imagine a skinny elf, trying to outalk a troll
and telling him that anger leads to the darkside and go from there).



<SNIP>
> Not read that yet, I've had a browse through it but I'm still ploughing
> through Rigger 2, Earthforce Sourcebook, BGC: Before & After and
> Firestorm: Shockwave at the mo'. <so much to read, and so few hours in a
> day - sigh>
Heh..I know that one. We just started a game of Ars Magica, so I'm
relearning the rules, plus school started, plus finishing up
Glen Cooks latest book, etc etc. I think there should be at least
an extra 8 hours in a day to sleep and read. :)
I responded to an earlier post without reading this one first.
So anyway...


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 13
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:20:34 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 08:06:12AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Avenger wrote:
> /
<SNIP>
>
> Erg. I can see why it gets confusing. Spells focus and shape
> magical energy. Ghosts do not. Ghosts are a lifeform of some sort.
> I don't know if they're the spirit of the dead person or if they're
> created or summoned by an emotional death. They are truely funky and
> best left to GM judgement, IMHO.
>
> I treat them as living emotional energies. On a few occasions they
> really are the trapped spirit of an individual, but that's pretty
> rare in my game.
>
> / >However, a strong belief in psychic phenomena also exists, so that
> / >makes it possible. There are people with mental abilities that do
> / >not fit the mold of hermetic or shamanic definitions. But, IMHO,
> / >it's still magic.
> /
> / Yeah, and that's the bit I don't like much. Not trying to be awkward,
> / but IMO it'd be nice to have something not able to be thrown into the
> / general morass of "it's magic". That's such a cop out. <sorry> :)
> /
> / >On the same subject, there are a few individuals in my game with a
> / >strong enough will to consciously or unconsciously shape magic to
> / >meet their own beliefs.
> /
> / I can see where you're coming from with what you've said, and it makes
> / sense, it just - well, I'm not confortable labelling every "unusual"
> / event as a manifestation of magic. It's so bleuch. :) And with the
> / abilities of mages in SR, results in "counter-action" being a relative
> / simplicity.
>
> Let's see if I can define my philosophy better :)
>
> There is a single source of for spells and psychic phenomena. I've
> been calling it magic, but lets call it... vae. Vae is what's shaped
> by mages into spells. Vae is where physical adepts draw their energy
> from. Vae is what shamans call on to cast their spells. Vae is what
> fuels psychic's abilities. Vae is to astral beings what sunlight is
> to us.
>
> Vae is the source. But it doesn't define the outcome. Spells are
> magic. Psychic abilities are not magic. PA abilities are... heck I
> don't know what they are. Critter abilities are not magic, they are
> an extension of the critter just like your hand is an extension of
> you.
>
> Vae is just another form of basic energy in the universe, like
> gravity, magnetism, etc. It can be, and is, used for many different
> purposes.
>
> If you think this is hurting your head you should check out
> Einstein's thought experiment for gravity and acceleration (did you
> know that they're both the same thing and that the shortest distance
> between two points is a curved line? :)
>
Didn't we decide to leave the real world out of this! Now you've
made me remember my physics classes and my head is spinning. There
is a reason I forgot all that stuff! Anyway, that said, good
example. What the quote from star wars "you'll find a great
many truths we cling to, depend on our point of view".


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 14
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:25:20 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 08:09:46AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
> / > As indicated in some sections of the texts from SR (I think) I can see
> / > how in different cultures and possibly even religions "magic" might
be
> / > interpreted and experienced in a different way. The middle east likely
> / > sees magic as something completely different to the US. Especially were
> / > so much of their traditional "magic" stories and legends centre
around
> / > genies and suchlike.
> / >
> / This has been seen in a couple of Challenge Magazines, and
> / in one of Kenson's articles (The Many masks of Magic). One reason
> / I enjoy shadowrun is the flexibility of the magic system.
> / If you want a character to be psychic, my suggestions would
> / either be use the Edges and Flaws system, or let the "Psychic"
> / be a sorcery adept, with only a limited number of modified spells.
> / His not being able to effect LOS, could be handled with clairvoyance
> / spell etc. SR is a relatively classless system, and I think that
> / is one of its strengths. If you try to add in Psychics (I've seen
> / Mental Adepts, Telepath adepts etc), it seems to just add more
> / rules. I let my players design the characters according to the rules
> / and RPG the rest. I've had characters who argued with others that
> / spirits didn't exist, because their "magic" wouldn't let them see them,
> / etc. This is all IMHO of course and can be ignored at your leisure.
> / I'm hoping Kenson may comment, since psionics were first mentioned
> / in Awakenings, but SR seems to treat them as a magic.
>
> I'd have character's purchase psychic abilities as edges. I'd use
> the spell rules to define them. And I'd lower the drain
> considerably. Keep in mind that while a mage can learn new spells a
> psychic is pretty much stuck with what he's got. Play with it until
> it feels right for your game and then go for it :)
>
I'll back that one. I would only let the psychic grow more powerful
or learn new abilities under extradinary circumstances. And finding
a teacher to help, would be nigh impossible. If mages are 1% of the
population. These "psychics" would probably be even a smaller portion.
I would probably rule their powers are unaffected by cyberware etc.
Good luck.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:48:08 -0700
Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ > If you think this is hurting your head you should check out
/ > Einstein's thought experiment for gravity and acceleration (did you
/ > know that they're both the same thing and that the shortest distance
/ > between two points is a curved line? :)
/ >
/ Didn't we decide to leave the real world out of this! Now you've
/ made me remember my physics classes and my head is spinning. There
/ is a reason I forgot all that stuff!

Sorry :)

/ Anyway, that said, good
/ example. What the quote from star wars "you'll find a great
/ many truths we cling to, depend on our point of view".

To true.

Man once believed the earth was at the center of the universe. And
from all indications at the time he was correct. It wasn't until
observation and scientific methods improved that that belief was
proven false. And even then it took awhile to sway the majority.

That's how I feel about "Magic" in Shadowrun. Based on what the
people of SR know is how they view magic. And I see the
inconsistencies as being part of this. Since the "truths" don't
apply to all circumstances something's missing from the equation, but
nobody knows what, yet... <EGMG>.

Or, I could believe that the authors and editors for FASA just didn't
think things through... nah. It's more fun this way :)

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 16
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:56:48 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 10:48:08AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
> / > If you think this is hurting your head you should check out
> / > Einstein's thought experiment for gravity and acceleration (did you
> / > know that they're both the same thing and that the shortest distance
> / > between two points is a curved line? :)
> / >
> / Didn't we decide to leave the real world out of this! Now you've
> / made me remember my physics classes and my head is spinning. There
> / is a reason I forgot all that stuff!
>
> Sorry :)
>
Your forgiven. This time. :)

> / Anyway, that said, good
> / example. What the quote from star wars "you'll find a great
> / many truths we cling to, depend on our point of view".
>
> To true.
>
> Man once believed the earth was at the center of the universe. And
> from all indications at the time he was correct. It wasn't until
> observation and scientific methods improved that that belief was
> proven false. And even then it took awhile to sway the majority.
>
> That's how I feel about "Magic" in Shadowrun. Based on what the
> people of SR know is how they view magic. And I see the
> inconsistencies as being part of this. Since the "truths" don't
> apply to all circumstances something's missing from the equation, but
> nobody knows what, yet... <EGMG>.
>
> Or, I could believe that the authors and editors for FASA just didn't
> think things through... nah. It's more fun this way :)
>
True, and we may eventually find we're wrong once again.
I hope FASA did it, to give players and GM's a good framework
to explore. Knowing how everything works, takes the fun out
of somethings. If a villian has unusual powers, that a player
can't look up in a book, it makes them cooler. (As long as your
fair and consistent). I've seen games deteriorate because
of such things. ("How did you do that, it doesn't say you can...blah...blah).
So as always as long as everybody is having fun, and the rules
are somewhat consistent (Or at least agreed upon for this
gaming session :)), all is well.

Beats TSR's, Cleric book, Mage Book, Druid book, Psionic Book...yadah
yadah yadah. IMHO of course.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 17
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:07:34 -0500
So, is it psi or magic?

As many people have pointed out, it's both, or neither, depending on how you
look at it.

The division between "psi" and "magic" is largely an artificial one
drawn by
various RPGs. In terms of effect, both are extraordinary mental abilities
that allow their user to gain information outside the use of the five senses
and affect inanimate matter with the power of thought alone. As Rick Swan
pointed out in a review in Dragon Magazine, the easiest way to create a
"psionics" system for a fantasy RPG is to change the names of all of the
spells and call it psi. Likewise, the easiest way to add magic to a game with
psi-powers is to change the names of the various powers, add some funny
gestures and chants, and you've got magic.

The official stance in Shadowrun is that there is only one "supernatural
power" (which, in fact, is quite natural to the Sixth World). Most call it
magic, some call it other things like psi. The point is that there aren't
different "magic systems" for different "classes" of magickers
(wizards,
psionics, clerics, shamans, ad nauseum): everyone taps the same power, using
the same basic rules. Some people manipulate it in different ways (different
spirits, different styles, etc.) but it's one unified system.

I do think psi kind of got shafted in Awakenings and I would like to make the
"psionic" a more viable character-type. I think FASA prefered to discourage
the proliferation of "psionics" in Shadowrun, but I think the self-imposed
limitation of psi are enough to do that. Here's a slight revision of the
psionic tradition as I see it:

PSIONICS
Although most people in the Sixth World have accepted the existence of magic
as part of life after the Awakening, there are some who are unwilling to
believe what has happened to the world is really the result of "magic."
Genetic mutation, perhaps, even guided by the influences of the Collective
Unconscious. Psionic manipulation of eletromagnetic energies, maybe, but
certainly not "magic."

A magical character who follows the psionic path believes all magical
abilities come from the unleashed power of the human mind (and perhaps
they're right). By concentrating, a psionic-also known as a psi, mentalist or
mentat-can perform amazing feats of telepathy, extra-sensory perception and
psychokinesis (mind-over-matter). Psionics can astral project and see auras.
They can even create "thought-forms," constructs of mental energy empowered
by the psionic's mind to perform independent tasks (in other words, spirits).

A psionic character is similar to a Shamanic Adept, requiring Priority B
assigned to Magic during character creation. The psionic operates in exactly
the same way as any other magical character, with some unique limitations
from the character's belief system: psionics can only cast spells which can
fit into the psionic model of magic as "the power of the mind." Spells such
as mind probe, manabolt, heal and telekinetic manipulations fit into this
model, but more "magical" spells like transformation manipulations, many
detection and health spells and physical illusions do not. The gamemaster is
the final judge of whether or not a psionic can learn a given spell. In any
event, the psionic cannot learn spells from traditional magical teachers or
spell formulas, but must "discover" (design) them using Magic Theory (or the
Parapsychology Concentration) or learn from another psionic.

Psionic characters cannot cooperate in magical work with anyone except other
psionics. So a psionic could only perform Ritual Sorcery with a circle of
other psionics, which is often refered to as a "psychic gestalt." Finding an
entire group of psionics to work with is extremely difficult, since believers
in the psionic path are rare. The same is true of a psionic who wishes to
initiate. Most psionics are self-initiated because they cannot join
traditional magical groups and initiatory groups composed entirely of
psionics are almost completely unknown. Self-proclaimed mentalists are
outcasts in magical society, on the fringe of a fringe culture, and treated
poorly by most practioners of the magical arts.

A psionic character cannot take any geas of a "mystical" or "magical"
bent.
This generally means geasa like Incantation and Gesture are right out. Geasa
like Fasting or Meditation are looked on as means of "clearing the mind" to
better focus the use of psychic powers, and are premissible.

Lastly, psionics cannot conjure nature spirits or elementals, nor can they
banish any magical spirit. Psionics use Conjuring to create "thought forms,"
incorporeal spirits able to materialize in the physical world as an image
from the psionic's subconscious mind. Thought forms are summoned exactly like
nature spirits and a psionic can only have one active thought-form at a time.
A thought form lasts for 24 hours or until all of its services are used up.
They are not limited by domain and can go anywhere their summoner directs
them within line of sight. Magical theorists have speculated that thought
forms are some kind of Spirit of Man or hitherto unknown type of elemental,
but no one can say for sure. Psionics can also conjure watchers , which leads
some to believe that thought forms are a more powerful type of watcher
spirit. Thought forms can be banished by other psionics and other characters
able to banish spirits (much to the chargrin of mentalists). Thought forms
can also become free spirits and often take on some of the aspects of the
psyche of the psionic who summoned them.

Thought Form
B Q S C I W R E Attack
F+1 F+2 F-2 F F F F+1 (F)A Humanoid
Powers: Manifestation, Psychokinesis, Search

PSI AND MAGIC
Psi and magic can be considered the same thing with different
window-dressing. The differences between the two are all semantics,
terminology and point of view (Psi vs. Magic, Powers vs. Spells, Remote
Viewing vs. Astral Projection, and so on). This is the tack taken by
Awakenings: psis are magically gifted individuals who see their abilities in
a different light. This means psi and magic are ultimately the same power.
Psi is magic AND magic is also psi.

What if you prefer psi and magic as two different things? Well, it is
possible that magic relies on the energy of astral space while psi calls
solely on the inner resources of the (meta)human mind (or whatever other
explaination works for you). Use the exact same system as above, but change
the names of the various game terms: Magic Attribute becomes Psi Attribute,
Sorcery becomes Psionics, Conjuring becomes Projection, and so forth. Bang,
you've got a seperate "psionics" system without making up a lot of new rules.

If they are two different things, then psi and magic may not directly
interact. Spell defense will do nothing to stop a psionic from reading your
mind and psychic shielding does not affect a manabolt in the slightest. The
physical manifestations of the two powers could still interact, of course. A
fire set with pyrokinesis is still just fire and the right elemental spell
will extinguish it.

It might or might not be possible for someone to be both a psionic and a
magician. Under the first option, there's really no difference, it's just a
matter of style. In the second case, such a person would be truly exceptional
and the object of attention from all sides.

If both psis and magicians co-exist using different sources of power, they
would certainly keep each other on their toes and make it doubly difficult to
defend against the unique abilities of the Awakened.

LINE OF SIGHT AND PSI
If you do want to make psi and magic seperate things and you want psi to be
able to work on things outside the user's line of sight, a word of warning:
without something to stop them, psi's become invincible. If you can use
psychokinesis on a target from a distance without LOS, and no magical
protection or barrier can stop you, then what's to keep you from doing
anything you want?

If you do want non-LOS psi, consider using the Ritual Magic rules: the psi
has to intensely concentrate/meditate for HOURS to affect distant things out
of direct LOS. If psi is going to be fairly common in the campaign (such as
having a psionic PC) then reasonable countermeasures should also exist.

Have fun with it,
Steve K.
Message no. 18
From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:21:00 EST
In a message dated 98-01-14 16:08:18 EST, Steve Kenson writes:

> Psionics use Conjuring to create "thought forms,"
> incorporeal spirits able to materialize in the physical world as an image
> from the psionic's subconscious mind.

(snip)

> Magical theorists have speculated that thought forms are some kind of
Spirit of
> Man or hitherto unknown type of elemental, but no one can say for sure.
Psionics
> can also conjure watchers , which leads some to believe that thought forms
are a
> more powerful type of watcher spirit. Thought forms can be banished by
other
> psionics and other characters able to banish spirits (much to the chargrin
of
> mentalists). Thought forms can also become free spirits and often take on
some
> of the aspects of the psyche of the psionic who summoned them.
>

Or (taking a psi's point of view), thought forms and psionic watchers could be
seen as a form of controlled schizophrenia, which makes use of the psi's
telepathic and psychokinetic abilities to give splinter personalities an
existence of their own that is concurrent with the "main" personality.

Muddying the waters a little more,

-- Jon
Message no. 19
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:23:34 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 04:07:34PM -0500, Steve Kenson wrote:
> So, is it psi or magic?
>
<SNIP>


> PSIONICS
> Although most people in the Sixth World have accepted the existence of magic
> as part of life after the Awakening, there are some who are unwilling to
> believe what has happened to the world is really the result of "magic."
> Genetic mutation, perhaps, even guided by the influences of the Collective
> Unconscious. Psionic manipulation of eletromagnetic energies, maybe, but
> certainly not "magic."
>
> A magical character who follows the psionic path believes all magical
> abilities come from the unleashed power of the human mind (and perhaps
> they're right). By concentrating, a psionic-also known as a psi, mentalist or
> mentat-can perform amazing feats of telepathy, extra-sensory perception and
> psychokinesis (mind-over-matter). Psionics can astral project and see auras.
> They can even create "thought-forms," constructs of mental energy empowered
> by the psionic's mind to perform independent tasks (in other words, spirits).
>
> A psionic character is similar to a Shamanic Adept, requiring Priority B
> assigned to Magic during character creation. The psionic operates in exactly
> the same way as any other magical character, with some unique limitations
> from the character's belief system: psionics can only cast spells which can
> fit into the psionic model of magic as "the power of the mind." Spells such
> as mind probe, manabolt, heal and telekinetic manipulations fit into this
> model, but more "magical" spells like transformation manipulations, many
> detection and health spells and physical illusions do not. The gamemaster is
> the final judge of whether or not a psionic can learn a given spell. In any
> event, the psionic cannot learn spells from traditional magical teachers or
> spell formulas, but must "discover" (design) them using Magic Theory (or
the
> Parapsychology Concentration) or learn from another psionic.
>
> Psionic characters cannot cooperate in magical work with anyone except other
> psionics. So a psionic could only perform Ritual Sorcery with a circle of
> other psionics, which is often refered to as a "psychic gestalt." Finding
an
> entire group of psionics to work with is extremely difficult, since believers
> in the psionic path are rare. The same is true of a psionic who wishes to
> initiate. Most psionics are self-initiated because they cannot join
> traditional magical groups and initiatory groups composed entirely of
> psionics are almost completely unknown. Self-proclaimed mentalists are
> outcasts in magical society, on the fringe of a fringe culture, and treated
> poorly by most practioners of the magical arts.
>
> A psionic character cannot take any geas of a "mystical" or
"magical" bent.
> This generally means geasa like Incantation and Gesture are right out. Geasa
> like Fasting or Meditation are looked on as means of "clearing the mind" to
> better focus the use of psychic powers, and are premissible.
>
> Lastly, psionics cannot conjure nature spirits or elementals, nor can they
> banish any magical spirit. Psionics use Conjuring to create "thought
forms,"
> incorporeal spirits able to materialize in the physical world as an image
> from the psionic's subconscious mind. Thought forms are summoned exactly like
> nature spirits and a psionic can only have one active thought-form at a time.
> A thought form lasts for 24 hours or until all of its services are used up.
> They are not limited by domain and can go anywhere their summoner directs
> them within line of sight. Magical theorists have speculated that thought
> forms are some kind of Spirit of Man or hitherto unknown type of elemental,
> but no one can say for sure. Psionics can also conjure watchers , which leads
> some to believe that thought forms are a more powerful type of watcher
> spirit. Thought forms can be banished by other psionics and other characters
> able to banish spirits (much to the chargrin of mentalists). Thought forms
> can also become free spirits and often take on some of the aspects of the
> psyche of the psionic who summoned them.
>
> Thought Form
> B Q S C I W R E Attack
> F+1 F+2 F-2 F F F F+1 (F)A Humanoid
> Powers: Manifestation, Psychokinesis, Search
>


> PSI AND MAGIC
> Psi and magic can be considered the same thing with different
> window-dressing. The differences between the two are all semantics,
> terminology and point of view (Psi vs. Magic, Powers vs. Spells, Remote
> Viewing vs. Astral Projection, and so on). This is the tack taken by
> Awakenings: psis are magically gifted individuals who see their abilities in
> a different light. This means psi and magic are ultimately the same power.
> Psi is magic AND magic is also psi.
>
> What if you prefer psi and magic as two different things? Well, it is
> possible that magic relies on the energy of astral space while psi calls
> solely on the inner resources of the (meta)human mind (or whatever other
> explaination works for you). Use the exact same system as above, but change
> the names of the various game terms: Magic Attribute becomes Psi Attribute,
> Sorcery becomes Psionics, Conjuring becomes Projection, and so forth. Bang,
> you've got a seperate "psionics" system without making up a lot of new
rules.
>
> If they are two different things, then psi and magic may not directly
> interact. Spell defense will do nothing to stop a psionic from reading your
> mind and psychic shielding does not affect a manabolt in the slightest. The
> physical manifestations of the two powers could still interact, of course. A
> fire set with pyrokinesis is still just fire and the right elemental spell
> will extinguish it.
>
> It might or might not be possible for someone to be both a psionic and a
> magician. Under the first option, there's really no difference, it's just a
> matter of style. In the second case, such a person would be truly exceptional
> and the object of attention from all sides.
>
> If both psis and magicians co-exist using different sources of power, they
> would certainly keep each other on their toes and make it doubly difficult to
> defend against the unique abilities of the Awakened.
>
> LINE OF SIGHT AND PSI
> If you do want to make psi and magic seperate things and you want psi to be
> able to work on things outside the user's line of sight, a word of warning:
> without something to stop them, psi's become invincible. If you can use
> psychokinesis on a target from a distance without LOS, and no magical
> protection or barrier can stop you, then what's to keep you from doing
> anything you want?
>
> If you do want non-LOS psi, consider using the Ritual Magic rules: the psi
> has to intensely concentrate/meditate for HOURS to affect distant things out
> of direct LOS. If psi is going to be fairly common in the campaign (such as
> having a psionic PC) then reasonable countermeasures should also exist.
>
> Have fun with it,
> Steve K.

As always, your replies are informative and cover the bases. Thanks.
This would be a great "Optional Tradition" for SR3/Big Book of Magic.
It simple to integrate, and with alittle work, won't unbalance play.
Has anyone out there read a series of books called "PsiCorps" I think.
Their fairly old, and had a fairly powerful psi, and his dog. (A giant
german shepherd, who was mentally connected to him am perpetually
hungry). I'll see if I can confirm the title and find the author.
They were a good read for this type of thing.
Other things to consider. I wouldn't drop the drain codes on "spells"
when used as powers. Particulary if your playing with the LOS rules.
You may also want to come up with some psi foci (Crystal Ball anyone)
Later all.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 20
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:27:29 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 04:21:00PM -0500, JonSzeto wrote:
> In a message dated 98-01-14 16:08:18 EST, Steve Kenson writes:
>
> > Psionics use Conjuring to create "thought forms,"
> > incorporeal spirits able to materialize in the physical world as an image
> > from the psionic's subconscious mind.
>
> (snip)
>
> > Magical theorists have speculated that thought forms are some kind of
> Spirit of
> > Man or hitherto unknown type of elemental, but no one can say for sure.
> Psionics
> > can also conjure watchers , which leads some to believe that thought forms
> are a
> > more powerful type of watcher spirit. Thought forms can be banished by
> other
> > psionics and other characters able to banish spirits (much to the chargrin
> of
> > mentalists). Thought forms can also become free spirits and often take on
> some
> > of the aspects of the psyche of the psionic who summoned them.
> >
>
> Or (taking a psi's point of view), thought forms and psionic watchers could be
> seen as a form of controlled schizophrenia, which makes use of the psi's
> telepathic and psychokinetic abilities to give splinter personalities an
> existence of their own that is concurrent with the "main" personality.
>
> Muddying the waters a little more,
>
> -- Jon
Ouch, there is one I haven't tried for awhile. Anyone remember the
character Legion from Marvel Comics. Charles Xavier's kid, who was
schizo, but a strong psychic, with distinct powers tied to his
personailities. That would make a good villian. (Or the character Sorak
from TSR's Dark Sun world is similiar).
YOu guys are providing way too many good (and potentially lethal)
ideas today.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 21
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:55:30 -0700
JonSzeto wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 98-01-14 16:08:18 EST, Steve Kenson writes:
/
/ > Psionics use Conjuring to create "thought forms,"
/ > incorporeal spirits able to materialize in the physical world as an image
/ > from the psionic's subconscious mind.
/
/ Or (taking a psi's point of view), thought forms and psionic watchers could be
/ seen as a form of controlled schizophrenia, which makes use of the psi's
/ telepathic and psychokinetic abilities to give splinter personalities an
/ existence of their own that is concurrent with the "main" personality.
/
/ Muddying the waters a little more,

Bastard ;)

Maybe that's what happens when a shaman summons a spirit... <g>

Seriously though, it's a cool idea. I'm not sure if I'd define all
thought forms as being splinter personalities, but it'd make for an
interesting villain.

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:07:16 EST
In a message dated 98-01-14 16:55:01 EST, dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

<snipped conversation and ideas of Psionics and Magic>

> Maybe that's what happens when a shaman summons a spirit... <g>

I don't think I would go that far. The Metaplanes of SR are my reason for
this. Sure, one could say the collective consciousness of all those shaman's
out there made it (a given plane). But I just don't think so. Sorry, this is
one time where I just can't quite agree (shrug). Especially when considering
the Loa (Guinee) and the other various planes that are starting to show up
now...

> Seriously though, it's a cool idea. I'm not sure if I'd define all
> thought forms as being splinter personalities, but it'd make for an
> interesting villain.

Or a HELLISH defensive mechanism for a PC (even if it is a bit
powerful)...BTL's and other, more powerful, mechanisms could even develop
those sorts of abilities...or perhaps "trigger them" would be a better
phrase...

-K
Message no. 23
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:26:50 +0000
In article <19980114100350.13222@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
<decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 04:24:40AM +0000, Avenger wrote:
<biggus snippus>
>> sees magic as something completely different to the US. Especially were
>> so much of their traditional "magic" stories and legends centre around
>> genies and suchlike.
>>
>This has been seen in a couple of Challenge Magazines, and
>in one of Kenson's articles (The Many masks of Magic).

I don't suppose copyright laws would allow you to send me the articles,
but an overview would be kinda nice, just to get a feel for the concept.
:) If it wouldn't be too much trouble of course.

>One reason
>I enjoy shadowrun is the flexibility of the magic system.

Well, yes. That is a big thing. The entire system, being basically
classless and flexible allows a great deal of leeway in many things, and
to that end it does make it a very good system. I very quickly got to
hate the rigidity so inherent in other systems.

>If you want a character to be psychic, my suggestions would
>either be use the Edges and Flaws system, or let the "Psychic"
>be a sorcery adept, with only a limited number of modified spells.

I've considered this. It could work, but...

>His not being able to effect LOS, could be handled with clairvoyance
>spell etc. SR is a relatively classless system, and I think that
>is one of its strengths. If you try to add in Psychics (I've seen
>Mental Adepts, Telepath adepts etc), it seems to just add more
>rules.

And that's something I don't really want to do. You've given me a
couple of ideas to explore, so I shall look into that, but it might be
that I'll have to create a new archetype, with some explanation why
"normal" magic doesn't completely apply.

Adding the psychic abilities as edges and flaws is not really a way I'd
like to go because of the problems so inherent with edges and flaws -
they're so wide open to abuse it's incredible.

>I let my players design the characters according to the rules
>and RPG the rest. I've had characters who argued with others that
>spirits didn't exist, because their "magic" wouldn't let them see them,
>etc.

That was one of the things I was going to do with the concept, and that
was to introduce it as a part of the character at creation, allowing
players of a certain intelligence to roll on the possibility of having
psychic potential, then using a result based on their intelligence and
the success test for psychic check to determine how many abilitlies they
were likely to get. From what little playing about I've done so far,
more than two abilities is incredibly rare.

>This is all IMHO of course and can be ignored at your leisure.

If it's interesting I never ignore anything.

>I'm hoping Kenson may comment, since psionics were first mentioned
>in Awakenings, but SR seems to treat them as a magic.
>Later.

It's a nice simple way to lump all the "strangeness" together without
having to bog down a system with new and additional rules. Saying
Psychic abilities is hermetic magic is a nice easy cop out that means
FASA don't have to start new arguments amongst fans, and don't have to
worry about current beliefs and research into psychic phenomena. I
don't begrudge them doing this. It keeps the basic system nice and
simple without adding in complications that are not likely to be overly
popular. I can't see many players taking any kind of psychic ability
over magic when magic offers so much more. I have some wierd players
and one of them has voiced an interest. :) So I thought I'd throw it to
the list first (to save my poor brain some hard work) before throwing it
at the players. :)

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Message no. 24
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:05:51 +0000
In article <19980114112520.25707@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
<decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 08:09:46AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
<snip>
>> / etc. This is all IMHO of course and can be ignored at your leisure.
>> / I'm hoping Kenson may comment, since psionics were first mentioned
>> / in Awakenings, but SR seems to treat them as a magic.
>>
>> I'd have character's purchase psychic abilities as edges. I'd use
>> the spell rules to define them. And I'd lower the drain
>> considerably. Keep in mind that while a mage can learn new spells a
>> psychic is pretty much stuck with what he's got. Play with it until
>> it feels right for your game and then go for it :)
>>
>I'll back that one. I would only let the psychic grow more powerful
>or learn new abilities under extradinary circumstances. And finding
>a teacher to help, would be nigh impossible. If mages are 1% of the
>population. These "psychics" would probably be even a smaller portion.
>I would probably rule their powers are unaffected by cyberware etc.
>Good luck.

Seems like a good idea. I agree with the psychic "learning curve" it
would be almost non-existant, and finding a teacher I would think almost
impossible. How can you teach something you don't completely understand
(not that stops the lecturers in our local college of course)

I have a very magic poor game anyway, so making psychics rare is no
biggie :) My mages, shamans etc are rare enough that the players rarely
meet one of any more than trickster abilities. Stuck with only one or
two abilities is not a problem either, I was intending to add the
abilities at character creation and leave that as the sum total of the
ability. Agreed also on the cyberware. Where it doesn't follow normal
magic rules, and there is no "humanity" loss in SR, the person shouldn't
suffer the penalities associated with magic and cyber, after all, they
can't get any better, they won't learn more abilities except under
exceptional circumstances, so why should htey be penalised? I might
rule against headware though. That gets a little too close to "home" to
let it just ride. Stick something in your head, and it's going to
affect something.

--
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Message no. 25
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:57:14 +0000
In article <199801141506.IAA03414@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>Avenger wrote:
>/

>Let's see if I can define my philosophy better :)

<grin>

Snip existential dissertation on the existence/meaning/definition and
followings of "Vae"

I think you may have started a new magical/religious tradition here.
I'm going to have to create a Church of the Vae, just to honour your
wonderful ramblings. :)

Very interesting, and though I'm not so keen on tying psychic abilities
intot he same realm as magic (mana) that helped a lot to explain your
thoughts. It has given me an idea on something else that's been bugging
me about the game, and now I may have a solution. :) Ta.

As regards your Vae, and all the other suggestions made by listmembers
here <all valuable and interesting of course> I think what I shall
probably do is create another level of consciousness. One below the
Astral, someone suggested the ethereal plane, and that ties in quite
nicely. Using the ethereal as a buffer zone between earth and the
astral and the power of mana. That would allow some leakage through,
allowing somone "sensitive" to the stuff (whatever it is) the ability to
tap into it, but not to fully experience the abilities of adepts, mages
and shamans. This could also go some way to explain some of the psychic
phenomena experienced by some people. Some of the spells from the books
transfer across and only need a little work to make them less powerful
and less "complete". It might be interesting to see how it works.
Coming from another plane, I might even be able to fudge off the mage
character and panic the poor so and so into thinking there's something
going on he doesn't know about. :)

>If you think this is hurting your head you should check out
>Einstein's thought experiment for gravity and acceleration (did you
>know that they're both the same thing and that the shortest distance
>between two points is a curved line? :)

I always thought it was a crow. Oh well, as they say, you live and
learn.

--
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Message no. 26
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:46:57 +0000
In article <19980114105030.08730@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
<decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 04:32:46AM +0000, Avenger wrote:

>> That's the biggie, less numbers. I'm looking for something a little
>> different to throw at the mage character, and rather than jsut fudge it
>> around on threat value or simple scare tactics, I was thinking of using
>> something that in the real world holds scepticism, belief and curiosity
>> within it's realm. People dedicated to research in psychic abilities
>> exist in today's world as well as the ill-fated alleged CIA experiments
>> with "far sight"
>
>Works for me. I would suggest, if its just NPC's with psychics, don't
>worry about the rule set. Villians are suppose to be unusual.
>If you plan on allowing a PC psychic, you may have to
>write out some base rules. Which spells are allowed, their
>new limitations, etc.

It is likely to be at least one player who would use such a thing,
they've already voiced an interest, and I am curious to see how it would
work out. Using it as an NPC "special power" is not a prob, I've done
some pretty wild things with NPCs in the past already.

>> I don't really want to involve something like this in a game, only to
>> fudge it off totally with a "it just is" type statement to my players,
>> they deserve more than that. And I'm not too happy with the "it's magic
>> so there" explanation. (They won't be either).
>>
>Depends on the players. Most of mine, don't mind alittle strageness
>etc with the NPC's, they enjoy it usually, because they can't
>always be prepared.

Oh, they don't mind having strange NPCs, but they all have a belief
similar to mine, and so far, they like things to be a little more
ordered than the usual "Magic can do anything because we don't know much
about it" explanation that is so common in some of the modules. Also,
where they're all pretty intelligent it's nice to be able to offer
something coherent to them, and then of course, there's me. If I don't
feel comfortable with the way something is working I don't think they
will.

>With PC's, its a bit different, but I've
>let my players occasionally play some odd traditions (The Jedi Knight)
>without too much trouble, and rule writing down.

Normally I will let players fiddle with their characters quite a bit, it
adds a little individuality to the characters if players are given some
leeway, and can result in some unique role playing. On this occassion
though it's for a player who's heavily into the X-Files, Dark Skies and
such like, but they've only just started playing and their ideas don't
tie in too well with the game mechanics. I've got a few ideas to play
with though and might be able to come up with something for them before
the next game session.

>My player actually
>did most of the work (write up etc), and had the mindset down to a T.
>It didn't unbalance play, and more the once broke us down into
>fits of laughter. (Imagine a skinny elf, trying to outalk a troll
>and telling him that anger leads to the darkside and go from there).

Yeah, been there, not with a Jedi, but a character who was fresh from
AD&D and wanted a Paladin type character (similar). Try and transpose a
Paladin mentality to the anarchy of Shadowrun. :) It was , erm,
interesting for a while. Until the player got himself all confused and
lost his "paladinhood" <grin>

>> Not read that yet, I've had a browse through it but I'm still ploughing
>> through Rigger 2, Earthforce Sourcebook, BGC: Before & After and
>> Firestorm: Shockwave at the mo'. <so much to read, and so few hours in a
>> day - sigh>

>Heh..I know that one. We just started a game of Ars Magica, so I'm
>relearning the rules, plus school started,

Thankfully I've been out of that for quite some time. Can't say I miss
it any either. :)

>plus finishing up
>Glen Cooks latest book, etc etc. I think there should be at least
>an extra 8 hours in a day to sleep and read. :)

Sleep... You sleep? Stunning. I keep running our of hours in a day to
even consider that as a workable option. I don't think I've had a
decent nights sleep since I started running role playing games in 1976,
there's way too much work to do. :)

Don't know about 8 hours, another 16 would be good though. :)


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Message no. 27
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:11:53 +0000
In article <980114160733_119589686@******.mx>, Steve Kenson
<TalonMail@***.COM> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>So, is it psi or magic?
>
>As many people have pointed out, it's both, or neither, depending on how you
>look at it.

>If you do want non-LOS psi, consider using the Ritual Magic rules: the psi
>has to intensely concentrate/meditate for HOURS to affect distant things out
>of direct LOS. If psi is going to be fairly common in the campaign (such as
>having a psionic PC) then reasonable countermeasures should also exist.
>
>Have fun with it,
>Steve K.

Well. That was an answer I never expected to see.

<stunned>

Thankyou very much Steve, your input into this was very well
appreciated. I'm not in complete agreement with the logic that psionics
match the same source as magic, but I can understand why it should be so
for Shadowrun, and I don;t have an argument about that, it's more a
personal thing. However, your suggestions with this unofficial optional
rulling is interesting to say the least, and has helped a lot in seeing
how it could be.

Again. Thanks a lot.

That has definately given me something interesting to work with, and as
a new "style" of magic, I love it. :)

I shall try to comment more coherently once I've read it through
properly.

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Message no. 28
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:23:04 -0500
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:12:43 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:

>Too limiting. Page 23 is a text from someone saying it's _all_ psi
>power, and page 104, calls him a liar, and it's all magic, just
>interpretation.
>
>I was looking for something different than "it's magic" and sweeping it
>under the carpet with the usual bluster.





>I thought so as well. The only problem I have with that is introducing
>yet another "adept" class. I can see how it could be, but I don't know,
>it just sit right in my gut.





>Page 104 of Awakenings says "all known psychics are hernmetic", a
>statement I don't totally agree with. (hence the question). I was
>initially tempted to keep it unique, but a number of problems exist with
>that - game mechanics wise. It might be curious to have a "psychic"
>character working with a team, rather than a form of magician. I guess
>I'll have to play about with it, until something works, SR doesn't
>really cover it very well, from what little I've found. Not suprising
>really, and I don't expect that to change in the future, this is more of
>a personal thing.


Actually, I would have counted psionicists as a separate tradition from
either hermetic or shamanic groups. Their methods may be highly similar
to hermeticism, generally, but I'd think there would be enough
differences in the belief systems involved to keep them different. As for
a 'psychic' working with a group.... I see no reason why it couldn't
happen.
I think the problem is that, rationally, there isn't much of a way for
explaining psionics in SR without calling them magic. And while haven't
seen but a couple of psi systems, all of them leave me cold. Far too
complex for my taste.


>The ability to affect something without seeing it. For instance, the
>character has been in a room, noted the articles in it, and later
>decides to play a trick against the occupant. Int he near neighbourhood
>(say across the street) the character picks up one or two items use
>telekinesis and "moves" then around. As a pyschic power it wouldn't


That would require one heck of a memory, IMO.


>leave the same traces on the astral as "normal" magic, and would produce
>slightly different effects. Things like Pyrokinesis requires that there
>is LOS. Can't burn something if you can't see it sort of thing.


I'll agree there. For game balance if nothing else:)


>Agreed. game balance seems the most likely. To give you an idea of what
>gave me the idea, is the abilities of old programs like "The Tomorrow
>People" (not the more recent crap that came about, but the 70's series)


I don't think I ever saw that.


>without teleportation. <g> PsiCops from B5 and a few other literary
>sources. I just like the idea of a character being able to have certain
>psychic abilities, crafted in at creation, rather than being forced to
>follow a "magical" tradition and all that implies.


I don't see why you would have to use psionicism for this... inborn
magical ability already exists, people just have to learn how to use it.


>>And there's always the 'nobody
>>really knows how magic works, so something that doesn't make obvious
>>sense shouldn't matter' type of excuse :)
>
>Yeah. I hate that though. And it's gotta be frustrating for players to
>hear it. :)


But its such an *easy* answer! :)


>><<If psychic, how could the effects be explained, natural manipulation
or
>>something more paranormal?>>
>>
>>In Shadowrun? That's a darn good question.
>
>Gee, thanks.


Heh. I try:)


>>(If it's not magical, and it's
>>not mundane... What the frag is it?!)
>
>I thought I was asking the questions? :)


Aha! So that's where my confusion stems from:)


>><<Ghosts. Does anyone use such a thing. Are ghosts - spirits, or a
>>manifestation of a strong emotional situation?>>
>>
>>Both. "Ghosts" are a form of spirit born out the ether in areas where
>>some event has greatly impressed itself on astral space.
>
>Interesting. Yeah, I can see how this could work, I'll throw one at my
>players at some point and see how it works out. <g>
>
>>(this is IMO,
>>since I don't feel like checking to see what the BBB actually says
right
>>now)
>
>Can't find mine :(
>
>><<If spirits, could they be controlled/summoned (much like a
>>(pre)pubescent child and poltergeists (psychic abilities or
>manifestation
>>of something else?)>>
>>
>>Possibly, although since ghosts are etheric in nature, it may be like
>>trying to deal with a free watcher. IMO, I don't think you can
>>successfully control such a spirit. You could 'summon' it, but only to
>>get info from it and then only if it feels like cooperating.
>
>A more irritating form of irritating. :) Hmmm, nah that'd be too
>nasty.


I didn't mean 'free watcher' in that sense:) I was referring to the fact
that the ghost had the etheic as its home plane. Free watchers don't
technically exist (they dissolve back into the ether when their time runs
out or they're released. A ghost, however, is the nearest equivalent to
such a beast: a free spirit with the etheric as its home plane. Watchers
don't work quite like normal spirits, it stands to reason that a ghost
doesn't operate quite like a normal freebie. All IMO, of course.


>><<If a manifestation of an emotional nature would this work as a
>>background count to the area, or something else?>>
>>
>>More likely, the background would add to it, but I doubt that a ghost
>>would add to the BGC itself.
>
>Didn't think of that. The background count of an area suffering an
>"event" adding to the strength of the "ghost". Yeah, I like that.
:)
>As regards the "ghost" adding to the count, this could be explained
>possibly over a period of time - certain "haunted" areas hold a greater
>feeling of dread and ill-feeling than others, and over time that
>reputation climbs and more events occur - whether that's just
>convenience and the expectations of the visitor is debateable, but it
>might, over time, increase the count, and power of the ghost. I don't
>know though, I think you're probably closer to the truth by not having
>the ghost add to the count.


I was really thinking that a ghost was generally limited to the 'domain'
in which it was 'born' ... And that the background count produced from
whatever event occurred was aspected in such a way that the it helps the
spirit. I could see the opposite way of doing things, though. Ghosts are
probably variable enough in appearance and nature that it may vary from
spirit to spirit.


Canthros
Message no. 29
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 02:57:38 +0000
In article <19980114.202315.3782.1.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:12:43 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
>writes:
>>that - game mechanics wise. It might be curious to have a "psychic"
>>character working with a team, rather than a form of magician. I guess
>>I'll have to play about with it, until something works, SR doesn't
>>really cover it very well, from what little I've found. Not suprising
>>really, and I don't expect that to change in the future, this is more of
>>a personal thing.
>
>Actually, I would have counted psionicists as a separate tradition from
>either hermetic or shamanic groups.

Personally I would as well, aside from the fact that the Psionics I'm
thinking about would be a major house rule thing, the SR books stick the
whole shebang straight into hermetic magic thank you very much. :(

>Their methods may be highly similar
>to hermeticism, generally, but I'd think there would be enough
>differences in the belief systems involved to keep them different. As for
>a 'psychic' working with a group.... I see no reason why it couldn't
>happen.

One would certainly think so. No reason that it couldn't happen, but
of course, the true psychic would be a rare beastie, with a whole bunch
of shamans in between (shaman as in faker rather than chanting native
spell chucker) It was a comment from one player who has been readin
strange books where one of the characters had a limited form of pre-
cognition and a couple of other abilities, which didn't really figure
into the SR magic system, I don't want to penalise what might be a very
interesting character by forcing them to place magic as a high priority
just for a couple of abilities that won't affect the game to any great
degree, it seems rather unfair. Using the SR "it's magic so there" easy
get out clause, would force character creation to have magic at A or B.
:(

I know I can fudge it, but I wanted some other opinions first :)

>I think the problem is that, rationally, there isn't much of a way for
>explaining psionics in SR without calling them magic. And while haven't
>seen but a couple of psi systems, all of them leave me cold. Far too
>complex for my taste.

Oh, too right matey. I've seen some horrendous rules on psionics from
other game systems and they are truly daunting. SR has some nice
possibilities, and a very kind person just sent me their house rules on
Psionics :) so I'm onto a winning track with this. If it works out OK,
and I decide on how to handle it all, I'll probably stick what I come up
with on my web site to annoy people with. :)

>>decides to play a trick against the occupant. Int he near neighbourhood
>>(say across the street) the character picks up one or two items use
>>telekinesis and "moves" then around. As a pyschic power it wouldn't
>
>That would require one heck of a memory, IMO.

Photographic recall is not such a rare thing anymore. Observance can be
taught, the British military makes a _big_ thing out of teaching
observance to situations and locations into the infantry, and especially
non-coms. Officers don't matter so much, they're usually safely sitting
in a tent somewhere. Some detectives are able to recall a tremendous
amount of detail from a short term observation of something. It's down
to disciplining the mind for recall. Everyone can do it, not everyone
has the patience to learn.

>>leave the same traces on the astral as "normal" magic, and would produce
>>slightly different effects. Things like Pyrokinesis requires that there
>>is LOS. Can't burn something if you can't see it sort of thing.
>
>I'll agree there. For game balance if nothing else:)

Well, yes, that's one of the biggest worries - maintaining game balance.
:0

>>Agreed. game balance seems the most likely. To give you an idea of what
>>gave me the idea, is the abilities of old programs like "The Tomorrow
>>People" (not the more recent crap that came about, but the 70's series)
>
>I don't think I ever saw that.

You didn't miss a tremendous amount, the series actually sucked the big
one, but it had some neat ideas. Unfortunately a friend of mine was
heavily into the series so I usually got stuck with either hearing all
about it several times, or watching it just to shut him up. :)

>>psychic abilities, crafted in at creation, rather than being forced to
>>follow a "magical" tradition and all that implies.
>
>I don't see why you would have to use psionicism for this... inborn
>magical ability already exists, people just have to learn how to use it.

Yes, but for a character at creation to have magical abilities it
requires that resources be set to A (or B if you don't care too much)
For one maybe two powers of limited capability this seemed rather
extreme. So, before deciding arbitrarily to ignore several core rules I
thought I'd get some input. :)

>>>really knows how magic works, so something that doesn't make obvious
>>>sense shouldn't matter' type of excuse :)
>>
>>Yeah. I hate that though. And it's gotta be frustrating for players to
>>hear it. :)
>
>But its such an *easy* answer! :)

I know, but I really really really hate it! :) And at least one of my
players would savagely attack me if I ever used it.

>>>(If it's not magical, and it's
>>>not mundane... What the frag is it?!)
>>
>>I thought I was asking the questions? :)
>
>Aha! So that's where my confusion stems from:)

Well, it certainly started confusing me.

>>>Possibly, although since ghosts are etheric in nature, it may be like
>>>trying to deal with a free watcher. IMO, I don't think you can
>>>successfully control such a spirit. You could 'summon' it, but only to
>>>get info from it and then only if it feels like cooperating.
>>
>>A more irritating form of irritating. :) Hmmm, nah that'd be too
>>nasty.
>
>I didn't mean 'free watcher' in that sense:)

Oh, :( darn, and I was just thinking of all the fun I could have. :)

>out or they're released. A ghost, however, is the nearest equivalent to
>such a beast: a free spirit with the etheric as its home plane. Watchers
>don't work quite like normal spirits, it stands to reason that a ghost
>doesn't operate quite like a normal freebie. All IMO, of course.

And a fine IYO it is too. :)

>>convenience and the expectations of the visitor is debateable, but it
>>might, over time, increase the count, and power of the ghost. I don't
>>know though, I think you're probably closer to the truth by not having
>>the ghost add to the count.

>I was really thinking that a ghost was generally limited to the 'domain'
>in which it was 'born' ... And that the background count produced from
>whatever event occurred was aspected in such a way that the it helps the
>spirit.

Yeah, I figured that, I was just sort of rambling a bit. You may have
noticed by now, I do that sometimes - ramble that is. :)

>I could see the opposite way of doing things, though. Ghosts are
>probably variable enough in appearance and nature that it may vary from
>spirit to spirit.

Yep. Though there are always the "traditional"
appearances/manifestations that would be more regular than individuals.
I do prefer your thoughts on the subject that the BGC would assist the
ghost in it's "methods" than the Ghost affecting the BGC. The strength
and emotional charge of events in an area would more likely craete a
spirit to occupy the area than the other way around. Associating events
with spooks is not a problem, there are plenty of RW examples and
creature powers to call on for some "interesting" effects.

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 30
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:38:06 -0500
Dark Avenger babbled

>I was looking for something different than "it's magic" and sweeping it
>under the carpet with the usual bluster.

Check out Kyrins page he has a write of the old Shadows of the Mind from
Haydens day. I've got a altered version that should be up sometime at
MageBlade's Archive.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 31
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:26:08 +1000
>As always, your replies are informative and cover the bases. Thanks.
>This would be a great "Optional Tradition" for SR3/Big Book of Magic.
>It simple to integrate, and with alittle work, won't unbalance play.
>Has anyone out there read a series of books called "PsiCorps" I think.
>Their fairly old, and had a fairly powerful psi, and his dog. (A giant
>german shepherd, who was mentally connected to him am perpetually
>hungry). I'll see if I can confirm the title and find the author.
>They were a good read for this type of thing.
>Other things to consider. I wouldn't drop the drain codes on "spells"
>when used as powers. Particulary if your playing with the LOS rules.
>You may also want to come up with some psi foci (Crystal Ball anyone)
>Later all.


Please. Can you snip a bit next time. I had to page down like four pages
or something to get to your reply.

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 32
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:17:43 +0100
>I do think psi kind of got shafted in Awakenings and I would like to make the
>"psionic" a more viable character-type. I think FASA prefered to discourage
>the proliferation of "psionics" in Shadowrun, but I think the self-imposed
>limitation of psi are enough to do that. Here's a slight revision of the
>psionic tradition as I see it:
>
>PSIONICS
>Although most people in the Sixth World have accepted the existence of magic
>as part of life after the Awakening, there are some who are unwilling to
>believe what has happened to the world is really the result of "magic."
>Genetic mutation, perhaps, even guided by the influences of the Collective
>Unconscious. Psionic manipulation of eletromagnetic energies, maybe, but
>certainly not "magic."

IMO, such an analyse could also fit to some hermetic mages. For many people
(in SR), it doesn't really matter what is the source of power, the first
concern is to know how to use it. Because it is difficult and a bit
anormal, people must use some *belief* to handle correctly magic.
The psionic definition isn't very clear. As I see it, you consider psionics
are user of *scientific magic* and I agree with it. An definition could
have been those who think that man has the power and only uses his own
capacities to create an effect as opposed to those who use an energy from
beyond. Shamans use a part of the power of their totem, mages use energy of
the demiurge or the like (in the case of traditional view) or the structure
of the universe (in a more elemental view).
The consequences are more important than what appears at first glance. If
the opinion of the psionicist is fine, he could be able to use magic (psi)
in space! Which is a really big result. Also, he wouldn't suffer from
astral background.

>A magical character who follows the psionic path believes all magical
>abilities come from the unleashed power of the human mind (and perhaps
>they're right). By concentrating, a psionic-also known as a psi, mentalist or
>mentat-can perform amazing feats of telepathy, extra-sensory perception and
>psychokinesis (mind-over-matter). Psionics can astral project and see auras.
>They can even create "thought-forms," constructs of mental energy empowered
>by the psionic's mind to perform independent tasks (in other words, spirits).

Well... IMO, they also could create more *magical* effects. The only need
they have is to get an idea of how to manipulate matter to get the effect.
For exemple, to create a fireball, he would have different possibilities.
One could be to agitate the molecules in air to warm a zone. By separating
oxygene and hydrogen from other molecules, he could ignite them into a ball
of fire.

>A psionic character is similar to a Shamanic Adept, requiring Priority B
>assigned to Magic during character creation. The psionic operates in exactly
>the same way as any other magical character, with some unique limitations
>from the character's belief system: psionics can only cast spells which can
>fit into the psionic model of magic as "the power of the mind." Spells such
>as mind probe, manabolt, heal and telekinetic manipulations fit into this
>model, but more "magical" spells like transformation manipulations, many
>detection and health spells and physical illusions do not. The gamemaster is
>the final judge of whether or not a psionic can learn a given spell. In any
>event, the psionic cannot learn spells from traditional magical teachers or
>spell formulas, but must "discover" (design) them using Magic Theory (or the
>Parapsychology Concentration) or learn from another psionic.

That's fine. If you only limit the use of spells by asking them a *logical*
reason for it function, it would be a A priority.

>Lastly, psionics cannot conjure nature spirits or elementals, nor can they
>banish any magical spirit. Psionics use Conjuring to create "thought forms,"
>incorporeal spirits able to materialize in the physical world as an image
>from the psionic's subconscious mind. Thought forms are summoned exactly like
>nature spirits and a psionic can only have one active thought-form at a time.
>A thought form lasts for 24 hours or until all of its services are used up.
>They are not limited by domain and can go anywhere their summoner directs
>them within line of sight. Magical theorists have speculated that thought
>forms are some kind of Spirit of Man or hitherto unknown type of elemental,
>but no one can say for sure. Psionics can also conjure watchers , which leads
>some to believe that thought forms are a more powerful type of watcher
>spirit. Thought forms can be banished by other psionics and other characters
>able to banish spirits (much to the chargrin of mentalists). Thought forms
>can also become free spirits and often take on some of the aspects of the
>psyche of the psionic who summoned them.
>
>Thought Form
>B Q S C I W R E Attack
>F+1 F+2 F-2 F F F F+1 (F)A Humanoid
>Powers: Manifestation, Psychokinesis, Search

Ok for text but I don't like the stats. Why do the spirit have less
strength. Psychokinetic effects can be very powerful but do not last very
long. For the powers, I wouldn't give manifestation because nature spirits
don't have it (they manifest without the bonuses accompanying the form).
IMO, the stats should be :

Thought Form
B Q S C I W R E
F-2 F+1 F+2 F F F F+1 (F)A
Powers: Accident, Fear, Psychokinesis, Search

>PSI AND MAGIC
>Psi and magic can be considered the same thing with different
>window-dressing. The differences between the two are all semantics,
>terminology and point of view (Psi vs. Magic, Powers vs. Spells, Remote
>Viewing vs. Astral Projection, and so on). This is the tack taken by
>Awakenings: psis are magically gifted individuals who see their abilities in
>a different light. This means psi and magic are ultimately the same power.
>Psi is magic AND magic is also psi.

Not as simple. If the power comes from the mind of the person, he isn't
influenced by environment modifications. I would state that psis are some
kind of physad. The power comes from the magic *stored* into their body.

>What if you prefer psi and magic as two different things? Well, it is
>possible that magic relies on the energy of astral space while psi calls
>solely on the inner resources of the (meta)human mind (or whatever other
>explaination works for you). Use the exact same system as above, but change
>the names of the various game terms: Magic Attribute becomes Psi Attribute,
>Sorcery becomes Psionics, Conjuring becomes Projection, and so forth. Bang,
>you've got a seperate "psionics" system without making up a lot of new
rules.

That's fine like this, except for some part of the usual capabilities. How
would you interpret enchanting ?

>If they are two different things, then psi and magic may not directly
>interact. Spell defense will do nothing to stop a psionic from reading your
>mind and psychic shielding does not affect a manabolt in the slightest. The
>physical manifestations of the two powers could still interact, of course. A
>fire set with pyrokinesis is still just fire and the right elemental spell
>will extinguish it.

IMO, it's the same primal energy but vectored differently. One uses the
energy provided by environment while psionic charges his body with energy
(by meditation or the like) and then uses it. While the system is almost
the same, you still have to create some modifications to really fit the
tradition.

>It might or might not be possible for someone to be both a psionic and a
>magician. Under the first option, there's really no difference, it's just a
>matter of style. In the second case, such a person would be truly exceptional
>and the object of attention from all sides.

Like a physmage ? Well... With the concept I gave, it's possible. I think
the guy would have the same kind of limitations.

>Have fun with it,

That's fine. Thanks for your post.

>Steve K.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:43:56 +0100
NightLife said on 22:38/14 Jan 98...

> Check out Kyrins page he has a write of the old Shadows of the Mind from
> Haydens day.

That's also in NERPS: Lost And Found, together with the long-promised
ShadowLore II and DragonLore. SotM was never completed, so about half of
it consists of "To be written"s, but it can be used as a basis for
psionics in SR.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's just twenty thousand people standing in a field.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Message no. 34
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:32:36 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 10:26:50PM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> In article <19980114100350.13222@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
> <decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
> >On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 04:24:40AM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> <biggus snippus>
> >> sees magic as something completely different to the US. Especially were
> >> so much of their traditional "magic" stories and legends centre
around
> >> genies and suchlike.
> >>
> >This has been seen in a couple of Challenge Magazines, and
> >in one of Kenson's articles (The Many masks of Magic).
>
> I don't suppose copyright laws would allow you to send me the articles,
> but an overview would be kinda nice, just to get a feel for the concept.
> :) If it wouldn't be too much trouble of course.

Heh..Kenson's stuff is posted on the web. The URL is
http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james/skenson/
Probably not on the rest, but I can give you the issue #'s.

>
> >One reason
> >I enjoy shadowrun is the flexibility of the magic system.
>
> Well, yes. That is a big thing. The entire system, being basically
> classless and flexible allows a great deal of leeway in many things, and
> to that end it does make it a very good system. I very quickly got to
> hate the rigidity so inherent in other systems.

Same here, and multi-class didn't work real well either.

>
> >If you want a character to be psychic, my suggestions would
> >either be use the Edges and Flaws system, or let the "Psychic"
> >be a sorcery adept, with only a limited number of modified spells.
>
> I've considered this. It could work, but...
>
> >His not being able to effect LOS, could be handled with clairvoyance
> >spell etc. SR is a relatively classless system, and I think that
> >is one of its strengths. If you try to add in Psychics (I've seen
> >Mental Adepts, Telepath adepts etc), it seems to just add more
> >rules.
>
> And that's something I don't really want to do. You've given me a
> couple of ideas to explore, so I shall look into that, but it might be
> that I'll have to create a new archetype, with some explanation why
> "normal" magic doesn't completely apply.
>
> Adding the psychic abilities as edges and flaws is not really a way I'd
> like to go because of the problems so inherent with edges and flaws -
> they're so wide open to abuse it's incredible.
>
This is true. My SR comp, is full of notes, to try and cut the abuse.
But it also comes to trusting your players somewhat. :)


> >I let my players design the characters according to the rules
> >and RPG the rest. I've had characters who argued with others that
> >spirits didn't exist, because their "magic" wouldn't let them see them,
> >etc.
>
> That was one of the things I was going to do with the concept, and that
> was to introduce it as a part of the character at creation, allowing
> players of a certain intelligence to roll on the possibility of having
> psychic potential, then using a result based on their intelligence and
> the success test for psychic check to determine how many abilitlies they
> were likely to get. From what little playing about I've done so far,
> more than two abilities is incredibly rare.
>

This is very true. From all the data I've read. Most psi's have
one power or perhaps two related ones. To have more means they are
very powerful.

> >This is all IMHO of course and can be ignored at your leisure.
>
> If it's interesting I never ignore anything.
>
> >I'm hoping Kenson may comment, since psionics were first mentioned
> >in Awakenings, but SR seems to treat them as a magic.
> >Later.
>
> It's a nice simple way to lump all the "strangeness" together without
> having to bog down a system with new and additional rules. Saying
> Psychic abilities is hermetic magic is a nice easy cop out that means
> FASA don't have to start new arguments amongst fans, and don't have to
> worry about current beliefs and research into psychic phenomena. I
> don't begrudge them doing this. It keeps the basic system nice and
> simple without adding in complications that are not likely to be overly
> popular. I can't see many players taking any kind of psychic ability
> over magic when magic offers so much more. I have some wierd players
> and one of them has voiced an interest. :) So I thought I'd throw it to
> the list first (to save my poor brain some hard work) before throwing it
> at the players. :)
>
I don't see it as a bad thing. It leaves us with flexibility and lets
us work around the rules. After reading Kenson's ideas, I hope
to see some of the stuff in SR3. Hmm..the other good thing about flexibility within the
rules, means as long as you stick to the rules, you
can move a character between campaigns and GM's fairly easy, unlike
some other systems. :)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 35
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:40:11 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 10:46:57PM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> In article <19980114105030.08730@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
> <decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
> >On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 04:32:46AM +0000, Avenger wrote:
>

<SNIP>
>
> It is likely to be at least one player who would use such a thing,
> they've already voiced an interest, and I am curious to see how it would
> work out. Using it as an NPC "special power" is not a prob, I've done
> some pretty wild things with NPCs in the past already.
>
> >> I don't really want to involve something like this in a game, only to
> >> fudge it off totally with a "it just is" type statement to my
players,
> >> they deserve more than that. And I'm not too happy with the "it's magic
> >> so there" explanation. (They won't be either).
> >>
> >Depends on the players. Most of mine, don't mind alittle strageness
> >etc with the NPC's, they enjoy it usually, because they can't
> >always be prepared.
>
> Oh, they don't mind having strange NPCs, but they all have a belief
> similar to mine, and so far, they like things to be a little more
> ordered than the usual "Magic can do anything because we don't know much
> about it" explanation that is so common in some of the modules. Also,
> where they're all pretty intelligent it's nice to be able to offer
> something coherent to them, and then of course, there's me. If I don't
> feel comfortable with the way something is working I don't think they
> will.
>
I can understand that.

> >With PC's, its a bit different, but I've
> >let my players occasionally play some odd traditions (The Jedi Knight)
> >without too much trouble, and rule writing down.
>
> Normally I will let players fiddle with their characters quite a bit, it
> adds a little individuality to the characters if players are given some
> leeway, and can result in some unique role playing. On this occassion
> though it's for a player who's heavily into the X-Files, Dark Skies and
> such like, but they've only just started playing and their ideas don't
> tie in too well with the game mechanics. I've got a few ideas to play
> with though and might be able to come up with something for them before
> the next game session.
>
I've seen this one as well. Usually from younger players. With more
experienced players is where it becomes lots of fun.

> >My player actually
> >did most of the work (write up etc), and had the mindset down to a T.
> >It didn't unbalance play, and more the once broke us down into
> >fits of laughter. (Imagine a skinny elf, trying to outalk a troll
> >and telling him that anger leads to the darkside and go from there).
>
> Yeah, been there, not with a Jedi, but a character who was fresh from
> AD&D and wanted a Paladin type character (similar). Try and transpose a
> Paladin mentality to the anarchy of Shadowrun. :) It was , erm,
> interesting for a while. Until the player got himself all confused and
> lost his "paladinhood" <grin>

Hahha...Some archetypes just don't transpose well. But they do
add some amusement. :)

>
> >> Not read that yet, I've had a browse through it but I'm still ploughing
> >> through Rigger 2, Earthforce Sourcebook, BGC: Before & After and
> >> Firestorm: Shockwave at the mo'. <so much to read, and so few hours in a
> >> day - sigh>
>
> >Heh..I know that one. We just started a game of Ars Magica, so I'm
> >relearning the rules, plus school started,
>
> Thankfully I've been out of that for quite some time. Can't say I miss
> it any either. :)
>
Heh..I can blame this one on my friend. I actually like Warhammer
better then Ars Magica, but we all needed a break from SR, and me
from GMing. (For some reason, I'm the only one who likes to GM that
game, go figure).

> >plus finishing up
> >Glen Cooks latest book, etc etc. I think there should be at least
> >an extra 8 hours in a day to sleep and read. :)
>
> Sleep... You sleep? Stunning. I keep running our of hours in a day to
> even consider that as a workable option. I don't think I've had a
> decent nights sleep since I started running role playing games in 1976,
> there's way too much work to do. :)
>
> Don't know about 8 hours, another 16 would be good though. :)
>
Heh..I cheat. I'm usually seemy conscious in my classes.
'76. Hmm...I was a year old then. Now do I feel young or do you feel
old. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 36
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:44:02 -0500
On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 11:05:51PM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> In article <19980114112520.25707@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
> <decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
> >On Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 08:09:46AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> <snip>
<SNIP...this is proving to be a big thread>
>
> Seems like a good idea. I agree with the psychic "learning curve" it
> would be almost non-existant, and finding a teacher I would think almost
> impossible. How can you teach something you don't completely understand
> (not that stops the lecturers in our local college of course)
>
Too true. They have this odd idea that being a PH.D. means you can
teach. Go figure.


> I have a very magic poor game anyway, so making psychics rare is no
> biggie :) My mages, shamans etc are rare enough that the players rarely
> meet one of any more than trickster abilities. Stuck with only one or
> two abilities is not a problem either, I was intending to add the
> abilities at character creation and leave that as the sum total of the
> ability. Agreed also on the cyberware. Where it doesn't follow normal
> magic rules, and there is no "humanity" loss in SR, the person shouldn't
> suffer the penalities associated with magic and cyber, after all, they
> can't get any better, they won't learn more abilities except under
> exceptional circumstances, so why should htey be penalised? I might
> rule against headware though. That gets a little too close to "home" to
> let it just ride. Stick something in your head, and it's going to
> affect something.
>
Sounds good to me. Sounds like your players are in for a good time.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 37
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:47:28 -0500
On Thu, Jan 15, 1998 at 09:26:08AM +1000, NightRain wrote:
> >As always, your replies are informative and cover the bases. Thanks.
> >This would be a great "Optional Tradition" for SR3/Big Book of Magic.
> >It simple to integrate, and with alittle work, won't unbalance play.
> >Has anyone out there read a series of books called "PsiCorps" I think.
> >Their fairly old, and had a fairly powerful psi, and his dog. (A giant
> >german shepherd, who was mentally connected to him am perpetually
> >hungry). I'll see if I can confirm the title and find the author.
> >They were a good read for this type of thing.
> >Other things to consider. I wouldn't drop the drain codes on "spells"
> >when used as powers. Particulary if your playing with the LOS rules.
> >You may also want to come up with some psi foci (Crystal Ball anyone)
> >Later all.
>
>
> Please. Can you snip a bit next time. I had to page down like four pages
> or something to get to your reply.
>
Sorry about that. This thread has lead to some long articles, and
its hard to snip them and leave them conherent. I'll do better next
time.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 38
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:19:35 +0000
In article <199801150338.WAA19325@*****.uc.edu>, NightLife
<habenir@*****.UC.EDU> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>Dark Avenger babbled

Babbled??? Damn, I've been found out again. :(
>
>>I was looking for something different than "it's magic" and sweeping it
>>under the carpet with the usual bluster.
>
>Check out Kyrins page he has a write of the old Shadows of the Mind from
>Haydens day. I've got a altered version that should be up sometime at
>MageBlade's Archive.

Righto, I've got the URL here somewhere. :) Ta muchly.]


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 39
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:10:34 -0500
JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM> wrote:
>> Magical theorists have speculated that thought forms are some kind of
Spirit of
>> Man or hitherto unknown type of elemental, but no one can say for sure.

>Or (taking a psi's point of view), thought forms and psionic watchers could
be
>seen as a form of controlled schizophrenia, which makes use of the psi's
>telepathic and psychokinetic abilities to give splinter personalities an
>existence of their own that is concurrent with the "main" personality.

Quite so. In fact, there are plenty of magical theorists who say spirits are
nothing more than reflections or "splinter personalities" of the magicians
who summon them, just to bring it full circle again. Do we create spirits or
are they entirely independent? No one really knows for sure.

Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU> wrote:
>This would be a great "Optional Tradition" for SR3/Big Book of Magic.
>It simple to integrate, and with alittle work, won't unbalance play.
>Other things to consider. I wouldn't drop the drain codes on "spells"
>when used as powers. Particulary if your playing with the LOS rules.
>You may also want to come up with some psi foci (Crystal Ball anyone)

I do hope to include something similar in the BBOM. I agree on keeping the
Drain on psi powers the same as spells, otherwise psychics get a serious
boost. I should have mentioned that psis can and do have foci of their own,
but they tend use them infrequently and to be poor enchanters. No magic wands
or enchanted swords for these chummers! "Power crystals" and such, sure, but
a psi would tend to avoid foci that smacked of magic too much.

Have fun and think good thoughts!
Steve
Message no. 40
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:30:37 -0500
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 02:57:38 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:


>Personally I would as well, aside from the fact that the Psionics I'm
>thinking about would be a major house rule thing, the SR books stick the
>whole shebang straight into hermetic magic thank you very much. :(


Hey, as long as your going to be making house rules, might as well go all
the way:)


>One would certainly think so. No reason that it couldn't happen, but
>of course, the true psychic would be a rare beastie, with a whole bunch
>of shamans in between (shaman as in faker rather than chanting native
>spell chucker) It was a comment from one player who has been readin
>strange books where one of the characters had a limited form of pre-
>cognition and a couple of other abilities, which didn't really figure
>into the SR magic system, I don't want to penalise what might be a very
>interesting character by forcing them to place magic as a high priority
>just for a couple of abilities that won't affect the game to any great
>degree, it seems rather unfair. Using the SR "it's magic so there" easy
>get out clause, would force character creation to have magic at A or B.
>:(


Well, you don't *absolutely* have to make it that high a priority.
Especially not if the PC is likely to be a one-time thing. If you plan on
making it a permanent addition to character generation and want to keep
it rare, set up restrictions similar to what you've got with magicians:
require psychics to be registered with the government, etc, etc. You
obviously know what to do, after all:)


>I know I can fudge it, but I wanted some other opinions first :)


Bah. Who needs input? I've got all the facts I need, right here. ;)


>Oh, too right matey. I've seen some horrendous rules on psionics from
>other game systems and they are truly daunting. SR has some nice
>possibilities, and a very kind person just sent me their house rules on
>Psionics :) so I'm onto a winning track with this. If it works out OK,
>and I decide on how to handle it all, I'll probably stick what I come up
>with on my web site to annoy people with. :)


I've done some thinking about writing some Psi rules of my own, but I
have not the time, atm. I will probably give it some more though in the
future, though.



>Photographic recall is not such a rare thing anymore. Observance can be
>taught, the British military makes a _big_ thing out of teaching
>observance to situations and locations into the infantry, and especially
>non-coms. Officers don't matter so much, they're usually safely sitting
>in a tent somewhere. Some detectives are able to recall a tremendous
>amount of detail from a short term observation of something. It's down
>to disciplining the mind for recall. Everyone can do it, not everyone
>has the patience to learn.


Memory is still subjective (possible exception: eidetic memory). Me, I
can remember enough to get a pretty good picture of whatever I'm
remembering in my head but, it's not accurate: that picture will be
influenced by my state of mind and my personal experience surrounding
what I remember.


>Yes, but for a character at creation to have magical abilities it
>requires that resources be set to A (or B if you don't care too much)
>For one maybe two powers of limited capability this seemed rather
>extreme. So, before deciding arbitrarily to ignore several core rules I
>thought I'd get some input. :)


Not necessarily, if you want to take up the idea of minor adepts: astral
sight adepts, spell or summoning talents, and the like.


>I know, but I really really really hate it! :) And at least one of my
>players would savagely attack me if I ever used it.


Those players. They're so bloody sensitive;)


>Yeah, I figured that, I was just sort of rambling a bit. You may have
>noticed by now, I do that sometimes - ramble that is. :)


:) Of course I've noticed how you ramble: I've been here far too long not
too have noticed:):) In fact, it seems as though *every* post you send is
at least 3 or 4 pages long. It's really rather impressive:)


--
John Pederson Canthros, the shapeshifter-mage
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 41
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:00:23 +0000
In article <19980115.193050.15822.2.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 02:57:38 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
>writes:
>>Personally I would as well, aside from the fact that the Psionics I'm
>>thinking about would be a major house rule thing, the SR books stick the
>>whole shebang straight into hermetic magic thank you very much. :(
>
>Hey, as long as your going to be making house rules, might as well go all
>the way:)

Don't you just hate it when some smart arse goes and starts with the
encouragement? :)

>>degree, it seems rather unfair. Using the SR "it's magic so there" easy
>>get out clause, would force character creation to have magic at A or B.
>>:(
>
>Well, you don't *absolutely* have to make it that high a priority.

I wasn't intending to, but rather make it a test on intelligence/wisdom
(averaged out), the number of successes determining the liklihood of psi
capability. I tend to lay more importance in my games on the
intelligence stat, where SR emphasizes more on the wisdom stat.
Something I don't particularly agree with.

>Especially not if the PC is likely to be a one-time thing. If you plan on
>making it a permanent addition to character generation and want to keep
>it rare,

Keeping it rare wouldn't be a problem, well, not for me anyway. :)

>set up restrictions similar to what you've got with magicians:
>require psychics to be registered with the government, etc, etc. You
>obviously know what to do, after all:)

<Snigger> Oh, you remember that then?

>>I know I can fudge it, but I wanted some other opinions first :)
>
>Bah. Who needs input? I've got all the facts I need, right here. ;)

I've got all the facts too, and some of the facts contradict themselves,
and others are a tad confusing and some of them I really disagree with,
but I've got them. I just prefer the more logical input available from
this list <grin>

>>amount of detail from a short term observation of something. It's down
>>to disciplining the mind for recall. Everyone can do it, not everyone
>>has the patience to learn.
>
>Memory is still subjective (possible exception: eidetic memory).

Yes, as indicated by statements from eye-witnesses, not everyone sees
the same things. To a trained eye and mind, it becomes habit and can
become very accurate. For the normal person, without intensive training
and regular application the ability, like many others will fade or be
forgotten. Again in this situation I would expect a good result on a
perception test for the player to achieve the task, but it's not as
though I consider it impossible. True idetic memory is as far as I know
pretty rare, but occurring more regularly in today's world than that of
a few years ago. Probably as a result of concetration and research in
the field. Like other subjects, it's surprising how often it really
occurs, when you go looking for it. :)

>Me, I
>can remember enough to get a pretty good picture of whatever I'm
>remembering in my head but, it's not accurate: that picture will be
>influenced by my state of mind and my personal experience surrounding
>what I remember.

I do have a very good memory for places, things, events. I have no
trouble at all remembering embarrassing moments for my friends and what
they did at party's or other places from up to twenty odd years ago, but
if I put my glasses down, guarantee five minutes later I can't find the
damn things, or a pen, I even lost my coffee earlier - and that caused a
scene I can tell you. Short term memory is for shit, but I've got
pretty good long term recall.

>>I know, but I really really really hate it! :) And at least one of my
>>players would savagely attack me if I ever used it.
>
>Those players. They're so bloody sensitive;)

Oh yeah, and I've got some very sensitive players. <and on that note>
:)

>>Yeah, I figured that, I was just sort of rambling a bit. You may have
>>noticed by now, I do that sometimes - ramble that is. :)
>
>:) Of course I've noticed how you ramble:

You weren't supposed to agree. You were supposed to have said something
nice like, Nah you don't ramble, just ...

Hmm, maybe you've got a point :)

>I've been here far too long not
>too have noticed:):) In fact, it seems as though *every* post you send is
>at least 3 or 4 pages long.

Yeah, it's a problem that I really ought to fix. Silly thing is I find
that unless I use longer than normal sentences people take me completely
the wrong way, except for one or two, who do the exact opposite and read
my rambles as meaning something other than I was saying. One day I'll
actually say something I mean, and everyone will understand it. :)

At which point I'll probably have to leave the list for a while as a
result of severe system shock. :)

> It's really rather impressive:)

Aw shucks... <blush>

Actually I think you'll find that some people would call it something
else, and impressive doesn't come close. Think "opposite". :) There are
a few who get _really_ bored reading more than a few short sentences.

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 42
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:20:56 EST
In a message dated 98-01-15 15:11:12 EST, TalonMail@***.COM writes:

> I do hope to include something similar in the BBOM. I agree on keeping the
> Drain on psi powers the same as spells, otherwise psychics get a serious
> boost. I should have mentioned that psis can and do have foci of their own,
> but they tend use them infrequently and to be poor enchanters. No magic
> wands
> or enchanted swords for these chummers! "Power crystals" and such, sure,
but
> a psi would tend to avoid foci that smacked of magic too much.

Wow, no room for Kathryn Kurtz eh? Anyway, we actually made the Psi's drain a
point higher on each drain modifier, as the psi was putting more "personal
energy" into a given effect. But then again, our Psychonetics rules are a LOT
larger than that. And discarded now as well...

And Binder never found making things for these guys problematic, just required
a bit more effort (of which he charged more to boot)....

> Have fun and think good thoughts!
> Steve

Ah Gee...Tinner, forget that last part.... ;)

-K
Message no. 43
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:51:01 -0500
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:00:23 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:

>I wasn't intending to, but rather make it a test on intelligence/wisdom
>(averaged out), the number of successes determining the liklihood of psi
>capability. I tend to lay more importance in my games on the
>intelligence stat, where SR emphasizes more on the wisdom stat.
>Something I don't particularly agree with.


"Wisdom"? Do you mean "Willpower"? I don't know that that is quite the
way I'd handle psionics, but it certainly makes sense and will probably
work well enough.


>Keeping it rare wouldn't be a problem, well, not for me anyway. :)
>
>>set up restrictions similar to what you've got with magicians:
>>require psychics to be registered with the government, etc, etc. You
>>obviously know what to do, after all:)
>
><Snigger> Oh, you remember that then?


You expected me to forget? And I think 'magic-poor' might be
misleading... 'magic-hostile,' perhaps:)


>>>I know I can fudge it, but I wanted some other opinions first :)
>>
>>Bah. Who needs input? I've got all the facts I need, right here. ;)
>
>I've got all the facts too, and some of the facts contradict themselves,
>and others are a tad confusing and some of them I really disagree with,
>but I've got them. I just prefer the more logical input available from
>this list <grin>



Logic? On the list? Are you mad??
:)


>Yes, as indicated by statements from eye-witnesses, not everyone sees
>the same things. To a trained eye and mind, it becomes habit and can
>become very accurate. For the normal person, without intensive training
>and regular application the ability, like many others will fade or be
>forgotten. Again in this situation I would expect a good result on a
>perception test for the player to achieve the task, but it's not as
>though I consider it impossible. True idetic memory is as far as I know


Hey, statistically, *anything* is possible:) I don't think it's
impossible... just a bit more difficult that simply remembering
something.... But I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time.


>pretty rare, but occurring more regularly in today's world than that of
>a few years ago. Probably as a result of concetration and research in
>the field. Like other subjects, it's surprising how often it really
>occurs, when you go looking for it. :)


Probably true. I think I'll just concede this point, because I'm fairly
certain that I'm in over my head now:) (he says, water coming in around
his ears...)


>>Me, I
>>can remember enough to get a pretty good picture of whatever I'm
>>remembering in my head but, it's not accurate: that picture will be
>>influenced by my state of mind and my personal experience surrounding
>>what I remember.
>
>I do have a very good memory for places, things, events. I have no
>trouble at all remembering embarrassing moments for my friends and what
>they did at party's or other places from up to twenty odd years ago, but
>if I put my glasses down, guarantee five minutes later I can't find the
>damn things, or a pen, I even lost my coffee earlier - and that caused a
>scene I can tell you. Short term memory is for shit, but I've got
>pretty good long term recall.


They say ... something or other is the first thing to go.... I think...
Heh... I once lost an ID card that was hanging around my neck:) So, yeah,
I can identify:)


>>:) Of course I've noticed how you ramble:
>
>You weren't supposed to agree. You were supposed to have said something
>nice like, Nah you don't ramble, just ...


Oh. You didn't say *that*:)


>Hmm, maybe you've got a point :)
>
>>I've been here far too long not
>>too have noticed:):) In fact, it seems as though *every* post you send
is
>>at least 3 or 4 pages long.
>
>Yeah, it's a problem that I really ought to fix. Silly thing is I find
>that unless I use longer than normal sentences people take me completely
>the wrong way, except for one or two, who do the exact opposite and read
>my rambles as meaning something other than I was saying. One day I'll
>actually say something I mean, and everyone will understand it. :)


Hey, at least you're coherent:)


>Actually I think you'll find that some people would call it something
>else, and impressive doesn't come close. Think "opposite". :) There are
>a few who get _really_ bored reading more than a few short sentences.


Well, I can identify with them: there have been occassions where I've
skipped over a message from you rather than spend 20 minutes reading it:)
Usually only when I'm really tired and/or not paying attention to the
thread it's in.


Speaking of rambling: I think we're straying waaay off the topic here:)

--
John Pederson Canthros, the shapeshifter-mage
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
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Message no. 44
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:21:41 +0000
In article <19980116.141617.15870.3.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Psychic or Magic
>On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:00:23 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
>writes:
>
>>intelligence stat, where SR emphasizes more on the wisdom stat.
>>Something I don't particularly agree with.
>
>"Wisdom"? Do you mean "Willpower"?

Yeah, sorry, been having an argument with someone regarding a system
that use the Wisdom stat, and it stuck in my head... :(

>I don't know that that is quite the
>way I'd handle psionics, but it certainly makes sense and will probably
>work well enough.

Willpower would have an effect on Psionics, don't get me wrong, but
averaging Intelligence and Willpower, (to check for Psionic ability)
helps to introduce a more important use for a character stat that is
pretty much ignored for most things in SR. It also means that you're
average twerp ain't gonna get Psionics just because they've got a high
Willpower to defend against spells.

Willpower would then be used as normal to defend against certain attacks
from Psionics, and intelligence against others. Sorry, but I just don't
see that Willpower would be the answer to every spell in the book.
Intelligence is just as important, but never used. :(

>>>set up restrictions similar to what you've got with magicians:
>>>require psychics to be registered with the government, etc, etc. You
>>>obviously know what to do, after all:)
>>
>><Snigger> Oh, you remember that then?
>
>You expected me to forget?

Hey, one can hope :)

>And I think 'magic-poor' might be
>misleading... 'magic-hostile,' perhaps:)

Magic Hostile? Me? Nah... <g>

>>>Bah. Who needs input? I've got all the facts I need, right here. ;)
>>
>>I've got all the facts too, and some of the facts contradict themselves,
>>and others are a tad confusing and some of them I really disagree with,
>>but I've got them. I just prefer the more logical input available from
>>this list <grin>
>
>Logic? On the list? Are you mad??
>:)

Actually, yes. I think that may be a strong possiblity.

>>forgotten. Again in this situation I would expect a good result on a
>>perception test for the player to achieve the task, but it's not as
>>though I consider it impossible. True idetic memory is as far as I know
>
>Hey, statistically, *anything* is possible:)

Oh yeah. Absolutely. Statistics can say anything you want depending on
how the question for the survey is phrased. Numbers can be lost fudged,
shifted to provide almost any response and figure required to make the
point. Politicians have been doing that for a _long_ time. :)

>I don't think it's
>impossible... just a bit more difficult that simply remembering
>something.... But I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time.

Me too. :(

>>a few years ago. Probably as a result of concetration and research in
>>the field. Like other subjects, it's surprising how often it really
>>occurs, when you go looking for it. :)
>
>Probably true. I think I'll just concede this point, because I'm fairly
>certain that I'm in over my head now:) (he says, water coming in around
>his ears...)

Only around your ears? I've been drowning in the Marianas Trench for
decades.

>Hey, at least you're coherent:)

Debateable. <g>

>Speaking of rambling: I think we're straying waaay off the topic here:)

Yeah, definately getting there.

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 45
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Psychic or Magic
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:20:22 -0700
I finally figured out how to state my views on the subject and keep it
simple.

First, I'm with Steve that there's a basic energy called mana.

When a mage casts a spell he summons mana and shapes it. The basic
form of energy isn't changed.

In my game a psychic would tap into mana and use it to fuel his
psychic abilities. However, his psychic abilities would not be
magic. It's like using electricity to light a lightbulb and create
light.

That's how I feel mana relates to psychic abilities.

-David
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