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Message no. 1
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Quality
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:06:52 +0000
John Wicker <saxon@***.NET> once wrote,

(snipped)
> And yet, the quality of the materials publshed in
> the Shadowrun universe hasn't gone done (IMNSHO), so I wonder if Mike's
> just got a way about him that seems terse, or whatever.
(snipped)

Hmm... Has the quality gone down? IMHO, yes.

Recent FASA products (let's say..since Dunky's Secret) have all let me
down in one way or the other. I cant' find the same enjoyment reading R2
or T:UCAS as I did reading Tir Na Nog or Aztlan. Has the magic gone from
FASA? I don't know, but it seems they take a lot for granted. They have
built a core following that will buy their books regardless of quality
and/or reviews. So what is the incentive of making "groundbreaking" books
when you know that by making tame ones, you'll sell anyways?

Now, I still like SR alot...And I won't abandon it in the near future.
But, by looking next year's lineup, we can only guess that more of the
same is on the way...Rules, Rules mods...gear (with the notable exception
of a new Corp book and Seattle 2 *crosses fingers*). Will I say the same
thing in 99? Depends on where SR is headed... Maybe if they listened to
us players, it could go in the right direction...

Hint: No damn Horrors! Or power armor. Or spaceships. (Very, very IMHO)

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 2
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:48:15 -0800
At 7:06 AM 11/20/97, Frank Pelletier wrote:
>John Wicker <saxon@***.NET> once wrote,
>
>(snipped)
>> And yet, the quality of the materials publshed in
>> the Shadowrun universe hasn't gone done (IMNSHO), so I wonder if Mike's
>> just got a way about him that seems terse, or whatever.
>(snipped)
>
>Hmm... Has the quality gone down? IMHO, yes.
>

IMHO a lot of the loss of quality is because of the unfortunate passing of
Nigel D. Findley. I think if you took a poll on this list of favorite
sourcebooks (and no, I'm not proposing it), his name will dominate.

I'm not saying that FASA doesn't have any talented writers, quite the
opposite, but nobody has really stepped up as the premier writer of
sourcebooks in his absence.

While I'm firmly in the "I'm ok with horrors" camp, I think FASAMike has
done a great job with SR. I think that he often gets stuck with the hard
questions, and when he answers, we are quick to say "see, I told you so" or
"no, that can't be right, 'cause on line x of section y of chapter z it
saysŠ". Hey, don't fault the guy. I've been playing AD&D for 19 years, and
I still get rules wrong. At least we have a good time playing the game, and
isn't that what counts.

OK, done ranting.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"HTML, the most fun you can have without a vowel."

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at www.lowephoto.com.

-
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PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ y+
-
Message no. 3
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:58:45 -0500
> John Wicker <saxon@***.NET> once wrote,
>
> (snipped)
> > And yet, the quality of the materials publshed in
> > the Shadowrun universe hasn't gone done (IMNSHO), so I wonder if Mike's
> > just got a way about him that seems terse, or whatever.
> (snipped)
>
> Hmm... Has the quality gone down? IMHO, yes.
>
> Recent FASA products (let's say..since Dunky's Secret) have all let me
> down in one way or the other. I cant' find the same enjoyment reading R2
> or T:UCAS as I did reading Tir Na Nog or Aztlan. Has the magic gone from
> FASA? I don't know, but it seems they take a lot for granted. They have
> built a core following that will buy their books regardless of quality
> and/or reviews. So what is the incentive of making "groundbreaking" books
> when you know that by making tame ones, you'll sell anyways?
>
> Now, I still like SR alot...And I won't abandon it in the near future.
> But, by looking next year's lineup, we can only guess that more of the
> same is on the way...Rules, Rules mods...gear (with the notable exception
> of a new Corp book and Seattle 2 *crosses fingers*). Will I say the same
> thing in 99? Depends on where SR is headed... Maybe if they listened to
> us players, it could go in the right direction...
> Hint: No damn Horrors! Or power armor. Or spaceships. (Very, very IMHO)
On that line, I think Cyberpirates looks quite good, although I have not
had a chance to read it yet. The blurb on the FASA page makes it look very
interesting and it should hopefully open up a whole new aspect of
Shadowrunning. If were lucky, they won't fill it with tons of new rules,
new gear (although some new stuff is always nice) and other rollplaying
information and keep it heavy on the gossip, rumors and general atmosphere
of the SR universe.
Message no. 4
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:41:12 +0000
In article <199711202015.PAA08201@****.qc.ca>, Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> waffled & burbled about Quality
>John Wicker <saxon@***.NET> once wrote,
>
>(snipped)
>> And yet, the quality of the materials publshed in
>> the Shadowrun universe hasn't gone done (IMNSHO), so I wonder if Mike's
>> just got a way about him that seems terse, or whatever.
>(snipped)
>
>Hmm... Has the quality gone down? IMHO, yes.

I'd agree with this, and I'm one of the types you mention below. I
collect FASA products, it's a sort of compulsion... :)

>Recent FASA products (let's say..since Dunky's Secret)

I personally hated Dunky's Secrets. It was irationally vague, left vast
fortunes laying around to be picked up. I think Bull has a small
Caribbean Island, a castle in the mountaisn, and some other such crap...
It left some rather silly implications (photo's of dead something - cow?
dragon? horse?) and a 1950's UFO on Mars (yeah sure) Among other
things. As an amusing read it was great. The cookies section and a
couple of other things had be rolling around, but in general I found the
book to be totally unusable.

>have all let me
>down in one way or the other. I cant' find the same enjoyment reading R2
>or T:UCAS

T:UCAS, bugged the crap out of me, as did the Companion. The thing that
annoyed me the most, was not paying full price for a book the same size
as a module, but the continual and seemingly endless references to other
books. This was, IMNSHO incredibly arrogant of FASA - to assume that
anyone reading T:UCAS would have the other books mentioned.

>as I did reading Tir Na Nog

In all honesty though the book is an enjoyable read, I didn't like this
one. It made the Nog elves incredibly powerful. Have you noticed how
following a "Path" cna make a total munchkin out of a half decent
character? Woopsy. Also, it did things to Ireland, that were in the
main, a teeny bit illogical, but then I rabidly hate the massive
presence of elves and power nations in the SR world, so I'm not really
one to judge this.

>or Aztlan.

Aztlan was amazing. Loved the book, but Jeez did it go over the top.

>Has the magic gone from
>FASA? I don't know, but it seems they take a lot for granted.

Aside from a few mistakes, or rather ommissions from the RBB2 I like the
book, I've only had it for a couple of days, but in the main it seems
pretty reasonable... Mind you, none of my players have ever played a
rigger, so I have no idae how it would work out in my games. There has
definately been a downwards trend in the SR material.

But, with Cyberpirates and "that other one" in line for the new year,
maybe things will pick up again. Mike seems to have a more down to
earth and solid view of the SR world than the previous chappie (Mr Magic
himself)... :) I am hoping for great things from Mr. Mulvihill. We
shall see.

>They have
>built a core following that will buy their books regardless of quality
>and/or reviews.

Yeah, sorry, I'm afraid that I'm guilty of this. I was already aware of
what the Companion and T:UCAS would be like from a friend in the States
who sends me reviews of the books while they're still hot from the
press, and so far, he's not been wrong. <g> Funny how my demented and
warped mind thinks so much like someone thousands of miles away, who
doesn't resemble me in the slightest... Worrying really. :)

>So what is the incentive of making "groundbreaking" books
>when you know that by making tame ones, you'll sell anyways?

Groundbreaking is dodgy ground. R Talsorian have just introduced the
Fourth Corporate War. This has not been received favourably with many
of the fans, on a 70/30 split. I've just got the second supplement in
the line, and in my opinion it's excellent stuff (I'm one of the 30%)
<g>, the world is slowly disintegrating under the battling corps, and
all hell is breaking loose on the streets. I love it, it's a hell of a
lot less tame than something like Mob War or Underworld (I expected so
much of Underworld, only to be presented with a pile of stuff I could've
got from any Hollywood movie <sulk>) But, Shadowrun doesn't really lend
itself to this sort of anarchic chaos very well. The influence of magic
must be taken into account, and as we all know, that's a dangerous
weapon to go starting wars with.

The seedy, film noir, undercurrent of Shadowrun is, to me more
attractive than the all out cybermonster/cyborg combat of Cyberpunk, so
I'll stick with SR for now, but something a bit more gritty would be
nice.

>Now, I still like SR alot...And I won't abandon it in the near future.
>But, by looking next year's lineup, we can only guess that more of the
>same is on the way...Rules, Rules mods...gear

This is what the majority of people seem to want. Rules, and rules
clarifications, and rules mods, and rules expansions... Gear, toys,
more cyber, more guns, more trucks and decks and drones...

I myself would much rather have place books. The gear I can manage on
my own thanks, there are litterally thousands of movies and books for
inspiration. Rules. Damn, there's more than enough of them already,
let's condense and clarify the existing ones before more are introduced
(BBB3 hopefully)... I wanna know about the world, and most definately
not in the vagueries and skinny (if T:UCAS) is an example of the future,
Target books.

>(with the notable exception
>of a new Corp book and

I've got three corp books from CP2020, each one concentrates on a single
corp, and is extremely informative, but essentially, not essential.
There are many things in the Shadowrun world that can be covered, but,
as Mike has said. Place books don't sell.. Oh well. Rules and "Gear"
books do. What would that say to any marketing analyst who'sreviewing
company profits?

Some fans want place books. OK, we give them gear, rules and places -
in the same book... Keeps everyone happy. Nope, not me, I may be a
part of the tiny minority, but I hate it. Combining too much
information in the books, means I have to rip the books apart to prevent
my players from accessing stuff that "may" influence them in the game.
Knowledge is dangerous, and no matter how good a roleplayer, it will
influence the decision making up to a point.

>Seattle 2 *crosses fingers*).

If it's another book of bars and clubs updated, I am going to ritually
burn it. If however, it updates the entire Seattle section, and adds in
more information concerning what was Washington State and the
surrounding nations/areas, great. We shall see.

>Will I say the same
>thing in 99?

Probably. But... And this seems to be an important but. Mike seems to
have a mindset that fits with the general list attitude, the list I
feel, though limited to a couple hundred people, is reasonably
reflective of a broad cross section of SR fans. Which means that maybe,
just maybe, Mike is going to be just what SR needs, and he'll turn it
around, and bring back that essential "punk 'n' magic" feel that SR had
in the early days.

>Depends on where SR is headed... Maybe if they listened to
>us players, it could go in the right direction...

They do. They listen to the sales. FASA are a company, they run on
profit. You analyse the sales, and produce product that feeds those
sales. Rules and Gear books sell, place books don't. The last module
from FASA was Mob War, and this only after a long break. Modules
apparentlt don't sell well.

>Hint: No damn Horrors!

Don't worry about this, Mike hates them as much as the IE, which isn't
as passionately as myself or a couple of others, but sufficient to
prevent them cropping up while he sits on the throne.

>Or power armor.

A logical progression. We're experimenting with it today, though on a
much smaller scale than portrayed in CP2020 and other SF. Powered
armour makes sense. Think of the threat value of the opposition, take
something that ignores that threat, and introduce it to the military and
specialist forces like SWAT. No, I think that powered armour is a very
likely progression of technology, especially in SR.

Doesn't mean I'd use it... But. <EGMG>

>Or spaceships. (Very, very IMHO)

Space... The final frontier. I'd like a Space book. Not fleets of
ships Star Trekkie crapola, but something that fleshes out the orbitals
and the whole NASA/ESA/JSA thing. Something that says whether or not
there's a base on the moon - a very viable and currently considered
project. Exploration into the asteroid fields for minerals and stuff
that is getting damned scarce on this planet. Scientific investigation
of the planet Mars - but not Total Recall. I like the idea of SR
expanding out into a new dimension. It doesn't need to be mundane only.
Space is not empty, it just contains something very very different from
a conventional biosphere. Take a largeish station, and add in plants,
trees gardens or (if large enough) parks, (oxygen re-cycling and
production) and you have a biosphere. Space is a nasty place for
characters. You can't use firearms or explosive spells and weapons
without risking cracking what is essentially a very fragile shell. The
physads and sammies can be toned down with low or zero gravity, Mages
can be toned down with limited biospheres. Nope, I think Space has a
lot of potential. I just don't want Star Wars or Star Trek or crap like
that. Aliens?? Not the creature, the concept. Seems almost feasible,
Weyland Yutani, Bladerunner?? Tyrell Corporation (replicants used in
space exploration).

Nope, it's feasible, it's workable. It just has to be done carefully.
Powered Armour and combat droids. Death Machine? Works for me.
Already I see an ABC warrior in the RBB2, maybe in Seattle3 we'll meet
Judge Dread... <joke> But then, the total collapse of civilisation ala
Mad Max, also works for me...

After all, why not move to somewhere where life is better, and let Earth
rot itself to the core. (ala Asimov - Caves of Steel etc) but with a
lesser tech level and no robo-police.

But then, we don't know nearly enough about the Earth bound SR planet
yet. Let alone something outside of it.

Only Mike knows where he's going, we can only hope it's good for the
game, and not 100% governed by market values, which I fear it is.
Remember his statement regarding T:UCAS - It was FASA's best selling
product to date. Of course it was, people were so hungry for
"Shadowrun" and not "ImmortalElfRun" <tm> they would have bought
anything, and T:UCAS promised so much, and delivered so little. :(

I at least. Live in hope.

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:18:36 +0100
Frank Pelletier said on 15:06/20 Nov 97...

> Hmm... Has the quality gone down? IMHO, yes.

I'm not sure if the quality has gone down, but I do think the books have a
different feel to them than they used to. I think this has to do with that
in the past, Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley were responsible for most of the
SR releases, whereas now we have Mike Mulvihill and Steve Kenson. I'm not
saying anyon is doing a bad job, though, but I am saying they're taking a
slightly different approach.

> Now, I still like SR alot...And I won't abandon it in the near future.
> But, by looking next year's lineup, we can only guess that more of the
> same is on the way...Rules, Rules mods...gear (with the notable exception
> of a new Corp book and Seattle 2 *crosses fingers*). Will I say the same
> thing in 99? Depends on where SR is headed... Maybe if they listened to
> us players, it could go in the right direction...

Different players want different things from a game line, so that could
still cause the same problems...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:18:37 +0100
Avenger said on 1:41/21 Nov 97...

> Groundbreaking is dodgy ground. R Talsorian have just introduced the
> Fourth Corporate War. This has not been received favourably with many
> of the fans, on a 70/30 split. I've just got the second supplement in
> the line, and in my opinion it's excellent stuff (I'm one of the 30%)
> <g>, the world is slowly disintegrating under the battling corps, and
> all hell is breaking loose on the streets.

I had a peek at what the CP world will (apparently) be like after that
war, and I didn't like it at all.

*SPOILER for CP2020 players who don't want to know about the 3rd edition*









The impression I got from the demo game at EuroGenCon is that it'll be
like Mad Max but with higher technology. There are around 20 factions who
all control parts of the earth after the megacorps battled themselves to
death in and around 2021.

> just maybe, Mike is going to be just what SR needs, and he'll turn it
> around, and bring back that essential "punk 'n' magic" feel that SR had
> in the early days.

That would probably be the best thing that could happen to SR. After
Dunkelzahn bought it, we got all these references to how the shadows will
never be the same, the stakes will be higher, etc., but I have a hard time
grasping just *how* that would be so -- I don't see much difference
between getting some research data from a corp compound so the competitor
can steal it, or getting some research data from a corp compound so the
competitor can sell it to the Draco Foundation.

Maybe that's just me, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 7
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:16:52 +0000
In article <199711211019.LAA01974@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Quality
>Avenger said on 1:41/21 Nov 97...
>
>> Groundbreaking is dodgy ground. R Talsorian have just introduced the
>> Fourth Corporate War. This has not been received favourably with many
>> of the fans, on a 70/30 split. I've just got the second supplement in
>> the line, and in my opinion it's excellent stuff (I'm one of the 30%)
>> <g>, the world is slowly disintegrating under the battling corps, and
>> all hell is breaking loose on the streets.
>
>I had a peek at what the CP world will (apparently) be like after that
>war, and I didn't like it at all.

As I said, I'm one of the 30% <grin>


>*SPOILER for CP2020 players who don't want to know about the 3rd edition*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>












>
>
>The impression I got from the demo game at EuroGenCon is that it'll be
>like Mad Max but with higher technology. There are around 20 factions who
>all control parts of the earth after the megacorps battled themselves to
>death in and around 2021.

I think I mentioned that Mad MAx works for me. :) If the corps go all
out to destroy each other - highly unlikely, but hell, you never know,
the resulting conflagration would possibly equate to WW3. The fears
over a third world conflict would be the massive destruction wrought by
chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, leaving a decimated and
virtually unpopulated planet.

I think it's in Cybergeneration where RT mention that Cyberpunk is no
longer Cyberpunk, it's CorporatePunk... Maybe this is just their way of
cleaning the game up to get it back into the deep and dirty where they
feel it should be.

The module release "Death Valley Free Prison" was the closest I've seen
to a Mad Max situation, and my players had great fun running that one.
A world like Mad MAx/Escape from LA is workable, if not liked.

20 factions controlling the earth could result in civilised
"strongholds" so that you can still have cities like Bladerunner, which
is the epitomy of a dark and seedy future (the game is brilliant, if
unplayable - love it just for the animation.) :) The surrounding areas
treated as "badlands" ala Max... I already have that situation with
Africa, Asia, US and Australia in my games, so it's no biggie for me.

But each to their own. RT seem to place a lot more stock in the
opinions of their fans. But, the corporate "powered armour" and munchy
world of CP2020, is being transfered to the BGC series, Cyberpunk is
changing, maybe not for the best, but it is changing, and I will be
quite happy to see it move away from the Corporate enclaves and back
into the streets.

But then, I liked the Ianus alternative as well, so I'm not really any
judge am I? ;)

>> just maybe, Mike is going to be just what SR needs, and he'll turn it
>> around, and bring back that essential "punk 'n' magic" feel that SR had
>> in the early days.
>
>That would probably be the best thing that could happen to SR.

I think so. It's gone a bit strange over the last year, and I'd liked
to see it earth out a bit for a while before someone goes apeshit with
the game again. However, many people like what has been done with
Shadowrun, and approve of it - go figure...

>After
>Dunkelzahn bought it, we got all these references to how the shadows will
>never be the same, the stakes will be higher, etc., but I have a hard time
>grasping just *how* that would be so --

Well, I'd agree with that, because I can't see the connection either.
The only one that springs to mind is a massively increased Federal
Bureau presence. This would bring light to previous shadows, making the
lives of runners harder, more risky, and more prone to notice. But I
don't see a justification for it. Shadowrunners didn't kill Dunky.
Dunky killed Dunky.

>I don't see much difference
>between getting some research data from a corp compound so the competitor
>can steal it, or getting some research data from a corp compound so the
>competitor can sell it to the Draco Foundation.

Ah, but the Draco Foundation pays in multiples of millions, whereas the
corps pay in thousands... :) That's how you can buy loads of expensive
gear, castles, carribean islands, your own orbital, a carving on that
silly mountain that the Native Americans have just put an end to, and
allows you to privately fund a research project to cure one of
Wendigoism. <snikker>

>Maybe that's just me, though.

No, Sorry Gurth. I know how you like to be unique but you're not alone
in this. There are at least two of us. :)


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 8
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:22:41 +1000
Avenger wrote:
>>> And yet, the quality of the materials publshed in
>>> the Shadowrun universe hasn't gone done (IMNSHO), so I wonder if Mike's
>>> just got a way about him that seems terse, or whatever.
>>(snipped)
>>
>>Hmm... Has the quality gone down? IMHO, yes.
>
>I'd agree with this, and I'm one of the types you mention below. I
>collect FASA products, it's a sort of compulsion... :)

Just on this subject, although I don't think the quality has decreased to
much, the one thing I really dislike is the fact that they have killed the
old Shadowtalk comments and replaced it with the new '> Blah Blah' format.
Much more style in the older way of doing things.

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:58:43 +0100
Avenger said on 2:16/22 Nov 97...

> >*SPOILER for CP2020 players who don't want to know about the 3rd edition*
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think I mentioned that Mad MAx works for me. :)

Mad Max is cool, but not if you're expecting Cyberpunk 2020. Now I know CP
turned into CP2020 when Talsorian brought out the second edition of the
rulebook, and it's turning into CP2032 (I think) with the third edition,
but the changes were just too big for my taste. However, the people
running the demo admitted that they didn't know the whole story either,
only what Mike Pondsmith had told them.

> I think it's in Cybergeneration where RT mention that Cyberpunk is no
> longer Cyberpunk, it's CorporatePunk...

True.

> 20 factions controlling the earth could result in civilised
> "strongholds" so that you can still have cities like Bladerunner, which
> is the epitomy of a dark and seedy future (the game is brilliant, if
> unplayable - love it just for the animation.) :) The surrounding areas
> treated as "badlands" ala Max... I already have that situation with
> Africa, Asia, US and Australia in my games, so it's no biggie for me.

It's not quite as simple as 20 factions controlling different areas of the
world, as if there are 20 countries like we know them now. It's more like
one faction does nothing but ride around in vehicles (I got the impression
that we got picked up by a spice harvester from Dune (the movie)), another
faction controls most of low earth orbit, one has mainly aircraft, and so
on.

However, I hadn't really slept much the night before so I wasn't paying
too much attention near the end of the game session when these details
were revealed to us :)

> But each to their own. RT seem to place a lot more stock in the
> opinions of their fans. But, the corporate "powered armour" and munchy
> world of CP2020, is being transfered to the BGC series, Cyberpunk is
> changing, maybe not for the best, but it is changing, and I will be
> quite happy to see it move away from the Corporate enclaves and back
> into the streets.

That's exactly where, if my impression is correct, it _isn't_ going.

[SR should go back to magical punk]
> I think so. It's gone a bit strange over the last year, and I'd liked
> to see it earth out a bit for a while before someone goes apeshit with
> the game again. However, many people like what has been done with
> Shadowrun, and approve of it - go figure...

Well, I like most of the developments in the SR game world, including
Dunkelzahn getting killed (though it would have been much more interesting
to have him as president for four years, IMHO). Still, the game shouldn't
try to force players to be the good guys. Although the earliest books
didn't paint the PC runners as street thugs either, I feel they didn't
really try to make players do the "right" thing so much as current
releases do. It's the same with getting PCs involved in
near-world-shattering events (the UCAS elections, mob war, etc.), which
didn't happen much in the older books.

> Well, I'd agree with that, because I can't see the connection either.
> The only one that springs to mind is a massively increased Federal
> Bureau presence. This would bring light to previous shadows, making the
> lives of runners harder, more risky, and more prone to notice. But I
> don't see a justification for it. Shadowrunners didn't kill Dunky.
> Dunky killed Dunky.

Still government organizations could use that as an excuse to step up
their efforst against anyone perceived to be a threat to society.
Shadowrunners could fall into that category.

> Ah, but the Draco Foundation pays in multiples of millions, whereas the
> corps pay in thousands... :)

Granted, that big a difference will be the cause of a lot more rivalry
between groups of runners. However, it will only affect those doing things
that are somehow related to the Draco Foundation, like going after *opens
Dunk's Secrets and picks a random will entry* the research data on edible
synthetic flesh for ghouls that has bee ndeveloped by some or another
company. This would probably get them the attention of shadowrunner teams
from other corps that are also after the 2 million nuyen offered for that
synthaflesh. OTOH, should the runners make a nearly identical run against
a corp to steal the data on a new kind of mint-flavored toothpaste, all
the "higher stakes" stuff doesn't apply -- that is a run just like those
everybody used to do in 2050...

> <snikker>

Stilt stevige trek!

:)

> >Maybe that's just me, though.
>
> No, Sorry Gurth. I know how you like to be unique but you're not alone
> in this. There are at least two of us. :)

Two can be unique :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:14:19 EST
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:16:52 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:
>In article <199711211019.LAA01974@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
><gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Quality
>>Avenger said on 1:41/21 Nov 97...
>>*SPOILER for CP2020 players who don't want to know about the 3rd
>edition*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>I think it's in Cybergeneration where RT mention that Cyberpunk is no
>longer Cyberpunk, it's CorporatePunk... Maybe this is just their way of
>cleaning the game up to get it back into the deep and dirty where they
>feel it should be.

Oh man.. was *that* ever the biggest piece-of-crap-game I've ever read...
borrowed it and skimmed it and was sick of the "here's the game, here's
what you'll play, here's how you'll behave and think, here's the
important people you'll take orders from and admire.. here's the 4 lame
powers that you'll have to make you the perfect little group.." It
looked like a cheap anime, with the depth of acetate.... or was that
intentional?

[snip "back to the streets"]

Yup...bring back the grit.

~Tim
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:52:28 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-20 15:20:46 EST, jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA writes:

>
> Hint: No damn Horrors! Or power armor. Or spaceships. (Very, very IMHO)
>
Horrors ... we'll see....Power Armor, I agree, keep it out...Spaceships...oh
I don't know...what opportunities that would await....

-K
Message no. 12
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:27:05 -0500
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:52:28 -0500 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 97-11-20 15:20:46 EST, jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA
>writes:
>
>>
>> Hint: No damn Horrors! Or power armor. Or spaceships. (Very, very
>IMHO)
>>
>Horrors ... we'll see....Power Armor, I agree, keep it
>out...Spaceships...oh
>I don't know...what opportunities that would await....


Personally, I have no desire to see Horrors in SR anytime within the next
century. If they're not supposed to show for another thousand years or
so, keep them out (at least on a wide-scale basis -- a one or two here or
there over the next four or so years wouldn't bother me, having them
break through en masse would be seriously bad move, however).

Powered armor wouldn't bother me too much, given that I don't see that
such a development isn't (or shouldn't) ever fall into the hands of the
PCs except under the most extreme of circumstances, and shouldn't remain
in their hands for very long. Heavy firepower of all kinds should stay
that way if at all possible (IMHO:).

Spaceships could definately be fun, however. Ditto for the orbitals. I
would love for FASA to expand into this area, even if only to flesh out
the things they have hinted at in the past. I just wouldn't want them to
rush on it. It's a bit like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time novels - the
next one is due out the end of next year, but I'll be quite happy to wait
if it means it will be of better quality than the previous novel (which
was mediocre, IMHO).


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 13
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:33:01 +0000
In article <199711221159.MAA15193@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Quality
>Avenger said on 2:16/22 Nov 97...
>
>> >*SPOILER for CP2020 players who don't want to know about the 3rd edition*
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think I mentioned that Mad MAx works for me. :)
>
>Mad Max is cool, but not if you're expecting Cyberpunk 2020.

Well, yeah, that's fair comment, the Cyberpunk impression from CP2020 is
definately not Max. But, when the Nomad groups and suchlike are taken
into consideration there are similarities. Corporate "safe" enclaves and
cities, surrounded by hostile countryside populated by outlaws and
survival types... Max 1 the other two Max films don't fit the genre so
well.

>Now I know CP
>turned into CP2020 when Talsorian brought out the second edition of the
>rulebook, and it's turning into CP2032 (I think) with the third edition,
>but the changes were just too big for my taste.

I don't have first edition CP, so I can't comment there, and from what
I've seen so far on the difference between two and three, yes there is a
"large" change in the world plan and the game environment, but it
shouldn't make it impossible to remain as it is, just harder. It's
going to be down to difference in "world view" again. But. And this is
where I fall down a bit, I'm not that familiar with what exactly the
third edition will be offering.

>However, the people
>running the demo admitted that they didn't know the whole story either,
>only what Mike Pondsmith had told them.

Bit like Shadowrun. We don't know where the game and world is going,
except for the little snippets released from time to time. In some ways
this is a good thing, but when garbage like the Horrors is dumped into
the collective lap, I get somewhat twitchy. :)

>> unplayable - love it just for the animation.) :) The surrounding areas
>> treated as "badlands" ala Max... I already have that situation with
>> Africa, Asia, US and Australia in my games, so it's no biggie for me.
>
>It's not quite as simple as 20 factions controlling different areas of the
>world, as if there are 20 countries like we know them now. It's more like
>one faction does nothing but ride around in vehicles (I got the impression
>that we got picked up by a spice harvester from Dune (the movie)), another
>faction controls most of low earth orbit, one has mainly aircraft, and so
>on.

Hmmm... Sounds kinda strange to me. Was some of this the interpretation
of the person running the game, or from information provided. If RT are
going to shift the emphasis on power to the orbitals and "spacers" I
can't say I'm overly impressed. That's taking the game into Asimov
realms, not Cyberpunk.

>However, I hadn't really slept much the night before so I wasn't paying
>too much attention near the end of the game session when these details
>were revealed to us :)

I know that feeling. :)

>> changing, maybe not for the best, but it is changing, and I will be
>> quite happy to see it move away from the Corporate enclaves and back
>> into the streets.
>
>That's exactly where, if my impression is correct, it _isn't_ going.

Not good then.

>[SR should go back to magical punk]
>> the game again. However, many people like what has been done with
>> Shadowrun, and approve of it - go figure...
>
>Well, I like most of the developments in the SR game world, including
>Dunkelzahn getting killed (though it would have been much more interesting
>to have him as president for four years, IMHO).

Dunky as pres for four years would have been shattering, both to the
game world and system. The silly dragon liked Shadowrunners, this could
cause problems. Also some of the other kooky ideas the twit had were
rather too much for the game to tolerate. Killing him was really the
only option to save the game, but that's just my opinion.

>Still, the game shouldn't
>try to force players to be the good guys.

Well, no. But, and TSR fell prey to this one, "public opinion" seems to
weigh heavily with many companies. You can't have your players being
"bad guys" parents and pressure groups disaprove of that sort of thing,
and it's something that many take into account when producing material.
Even Rifts has a disclaimer concerning the magic and violence content in
the front of the books, and I just can't see that game being taken
seriously.

Shadowrunners, as you say, aren't the good guys, but they're not street
thugs either, they're like the vigilantes of fiction - walking a fine
line between criminal and legal. Mostly, the opposition for runners is
from the companies/corps/individuals they run against, witht he law as a
secondary concern. My game is a bit different in that the emphasis is
on the law, rather than corporate enforcement. But that's just me, the
game is more oriented to corporate reaction.

>Although the earliest books
>didn't paint the PC runners as street thugs either, I feel they didn't
>really try to make players do the "right" thing so much as current
>releases do.

Definitions of right and wrong, should, in my not very humble opinion be
left to the individual gaming groups. Some people will only control
their players and games to reflect the good side of things, some mix,
and others go for an all out "bad" game. I don't hold with any
principles that the game companies should encourage players to do the
"right" thing. Once a company starts to draw lines and guide games in
the "behaviour" routine, it begins to lose it's perspective and
direction. I must admit I like a darker side of life, where nobody is
too sure who is doing the "right thing" and can't trust anybody except
themselves, but then I like high paranoia contents in my game world.

>It's the same with getting PCs involved in
>near-world-shattering events (the UCAS elections, mob war, etc.), which
>didn't happen much in the older books.

And shouldn't happen at all. If the players get involved in world
shattering events there is a damn good chance that the game will change
as a result, without the information there, the GM can only guess at the
effects of this result. Whether the players fail or succeed, something
has changed, and it alters the local game, if aa later FASA release
contradicts this, there's going to be problems, and it becomes a
pressure point for the GM to either incorporate the new information or
ignore it. Ignoring it wastes time and money, incorporating it makes
for headaches. (I'm trying to be tactful and not use examples for those
who either don't have the latest stuff, or haven't run through it yet).

>> lives of runners harder, more risky, and more prone to notice. But I
>> don't see a justification for it. Shadowrunners didn't kill Dunky.
>> Dunky killed Dunky.
>
>Still government organizations could use that as an excuse to step up
>their efforst against anyone perceived to be a threat to society.
>Shadowrunners could fall into that category.

But Shadowrunners have always been a threat to society. They are, in
effect, the anarchic section of society that is encouraging the
destruction of that society. They operate like small armies, employing
weapons and magic to achieve their own ends, which are rarely on the
right side of the law. They face down corporate power and attack the
holders of that power directly without concern for legal repurcussions.
Shadowrunners are by their very existence illegal. They own illegal
equipment, they own illegal cybernetic implants, they use magic beyond
in ways not governed by legal statute, they are beyond the law. This
alone would encourage a "Federal" presence in the shadows and on the
streets. Associating the death of Dunklezahn as justification is
illogical, that justification already exists, yet in game material, has
failed to materialise itself.

We have a Lone Star Sourcebook, but not one for the Intelligence
communities, or Federal Law Enforcement agencies. THE FBI, DEA and CIA
may still exist, but we don't really know in what form, except for hints
and ambiguous comments. Seneca Street in Seattle has a large Federal
building, of which several floors are taken up by the FBI, but that's
all we know about it. I can't see really that Dunky committing suicide
by involving himself in areas he didn't belong, and threatening powerful
nations/dragons/people/corporations isn't condusive to a long life
anyway.

>> Ah, but the Draco Foundation pays in multiples of millions, whereas the
>> corps pay in thousands... :)
>
>Granted, that big a difference will be the cause of a lot more rivalry
>between groups of runners.

Absolutely, but only corporate funding should be able to put together an
expedition that is likely to succeed. Maybe this was Dunky's way of
attempting to "legalise" the Shadows, which would also have been a
mistake.

>However, it will only affect those doing things
>that are somehow related to the Draco Foundation, like going after *opens
>Dunk's Secrets and picks a random will entry* the research data on edible
>synthetic flesh for ghouls that has bee ndeveloped by some or another
>company.

Yeah, but then how many games do this. Success. A small fortune later,
ghouls are a normal part of society because they no longer eat flesh,
and are only chased after by the radical movements and groups opposed to
their existence. FASA later release something that affects this, for
instance, a situation where the world turns against the ghouls for an as
yet unknown reason... Instnat conflict. OK, that's extreme, but...
It's not like it hasn't happened.

>This would probably get them the attention of shadowrunner teams
>from other corps that are also after the 2 million nuyen offered for that
>synthaflesh.

And, what happens? Conflict of interests resulting in open awarfare on
the streets? Is there sufficient incentive in the will, to encourage
corporations to go to war, I think there is, which is definately a
problem for the "ordered" life in Shadowrun, but might be a good thing.

>OTOH, should the runners make a nearly identical run against
>a corp to steal the data on a new kind of mint-flavored toothpaste, all
>the "higher stakes" stuff doesn't apply -- that is a run just like those
>everybody used to do in 2050...

2050 is gone Gurth, I miss it as much as others do, and the world is
getting to ordered and legal for my tastes, which is why I, along with
others continue the urban decay theme and increase the anarchy and
violent reactions of government and law enforcement to control it.

>> <snikker>
>
>Stilt stevige trek!

"something" is quite a drag???

>> >Maybe that's just me, though.
>>
>> No, Sorry Gurth. I know how you like to be unique but you're not alone
>> in this. There are at least two of us. :)
>
>Two can be unique :)

We've been here before :)


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:38:29 +0100
Avenger said on 18:33/22 Nov 97...

> >> >*SPOILER for CP2020 players who don't want to know about the 3rd
edition*
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> Well, yeah, that's fair comment, the Cyberpunk impression from CP2020 is
> definately not Max. But, when the Nomad groups and suchlike are taken
> into consideration there are similarities. Corporate "safe" enclaves and
> cities, surrounded by hostile countryside populated by outlaws and
> survival types... Max 1 the other two Max films don't fit the genre so
> well.

It fits better with Mad Max 1, yeah... When someone mentions Mad Max,
though, I tend to think of parts 2 and 3 ;)

> I don't have first edition CP, so I can't comment there,

I don't have it either, but unless I've been wrongly informed it was set
in 2013.

> and from what I've seen so far on the difference between two and three,
> yes there is a "large" change in the world plan and the game
> environment, but it shouldn't make it impossible to remain as it is,
> just harder. It's going to be down to difference in "world view" again.
> But. And this is where I fall down a bit, I'm not that familiar with
> what exactly the third edition will be offering.

Neither am I, and I'm not exactly a die-hard CP2020 player either. I
bought the books mainly to have as part of the RPG collection, and to
steal bits to weld onto Shadowrun :)

My view of the 3rd edition is based mainly on the fact that we (the PCs
in the demo game) were basically dumped onto a spaceship in 2021, spent a
long time in hibernation, and ended up crashing the ship's escape pod into
a plain in North America after the computer woke us up because of some
malfunction or other. We didn't get to see any cities, so the main
impression it left with me is that they turned it into something like the
world portrayed in The Road Warrior, not the original Mad Max (to stick to
that analogy).

> Bit like Shadowrun. We don't know where the game and world is going,
> except for the little snippets released from time to time. In some ways
> this is a good thing, but when garbage like the Horrors is dumped into
> the collective lap, I get somewhat twitchy. :)

At least FASA asked players to send in their comments about the "Enemy" in
HB, so that implies they were intending to listen to the gamers about
whether or not to put Horrors into SR.

> >It's not quite as simple as 20 factions controlling different areas of the
> >world, as if there are 20 countries like we know them now. It's more like
> >one faction does nothing but ride around in vehicles (I got the impression
> >that we got picked up by a spice harvester from Dune (the movie)), another
> >faction controls most of low earth orbit, one has mainly aircraft, and so
> >on.
>
> Hmmm... Sounds kinda strange to me. Was some of this the interpretation
> of the person running the game, or from information provided. If RT are
> going to shift the emphasis on power to the orbitals and "spacers" I
> can't say I'm overly impressed. That's taking the game into Asimov
> realms, not Cyberpunk.

I believe they'd gotten an adventure and some background information from
Talsorian in the US, and ran that. After the adventure, IIRC, the GM did
tell us that some parts of the adventure were her extrapolating on that
info in order to cover some events.

> >[SR should go back to magical punk]
> Dunky as pres for four years would have been shattering, both to the
> game world and system. The silly dragon liked Shadowrunners, this could
> cause problems. Also some of the other kooky ideas the twit had were
> rather too much for the game to tolerate. Killing him was really the
> only option to save the game, but that's just my opinion.

Probably true... OTOH the problem wouldn't have even existed, really, if
he hadn't run for president. The revelations he wanted to make would have
been sitting far in the background together with the rest of the EI/Horror
plotline.

> >Still, the game shouldn't
> >try to force players to be the good guys.
>
> Well, no. But, and TSR fell prey to this one, "public opinion" seems to
> weigh heavily with many companies. You can't have your players being
> "bad guys" parents and pressure groups disaprove of that sort of thing,
> and it's something that many take into account when producing material.

IMHO that is one of the biggest problems with most RPGs originating in the
USA. The general public there tend to have much bigger problems with
(what are perceived to be) controversial issues, so many companies try to
avoid them altogether.

> Even Rifts has a disclaimer concerning the magic and violence content in
> the front of the books, and I just can't see that game being taken
> seriously.

I never played or even read Rifts, so I can't comment here.

> Shadowrunners, as you say, aren't the good guys, but they're not street
> thugs either, they're like the vigilantes of fiction - walking a fine
> line between criminal and legal. Mostly, the opposition for runners is
> from the companies/corps/individuals they run against, witht he law as a
> secondary concern. My game is a bit different in that the emphasis is
> on the law, rather than corporate enforcement. But that's just me, the
> game is more oriented to corporate reaction.

Since one of the PCs in my current group is an undercover Lone Star, it's
focused on the law a bit more than on the corps, too. Plus the matter that
all the PCs are rather scared of being arrested after a recent cock-up
involving a forged SIN...

> Definitions of right and wrong, should, in my not very humble opinion be
> left to the individual gaming groups. Some people will only control
> their players and games to reflect the good side of things, some mix,
> and others go for an all out "bad" game.

Mine is edging toward the bad side, and as long as it makes for an
enjoyable game I'm not going to stop the players from heading in that
direction. It might cause some problems to try and get them to do things
they're not being paid for, though (like the fourth adventure from Super
Tuesday, which didn't get beyond the initial encounter).

> I must admit I like a darker side of life, where nobody is too sure who
> is doing the "right thing" and can't trust anybody except themselves,
> but then I like high paranoia contents in my game world.

I like to keep players on the run. I give them all the option of whether
or not to have a real, unforged SIN when the character is created, and
explain (in short) the pros and cons of both choices. Most opted for
having one, and I'm hard at work to make them regret the decision ;)
Leaving Seattle for Tsimshian when you're out on bail isn't a good idea,
for example, and getting the Tsimshian police after you as well doesn't
really improve matters. Paranoia is a good thing to put into adventures,
IMHO, but I don't want to waste all the PCs because they're not paranoid.
At least, not yet ;)

> If the players get involved in world shattering events there is a damn
> good chance that the game will change as a result, without the
> information there, the GM can only guess at the effects of this result.
> Whether the players fail or succeed, something has changed, and it
> alters the local game, if aa later FASA release contradicts this,
> there's going to be problems, and it becomes a pressure point for the GM
> to either incorporate the new information or ignore it. Ignoring it
> wastes time and money, incorporating it makes for headaches. (I'm
> trying to be tactful and not use examples for those who either don't
> have the latest stuff, or haven't run through it yet).

When they do get involved in big events that can't be allowed to happen
(from a continuity POV), it's just as bad. Our group is currently doing
the NAN2 adventure, and although the adventure provides a safety net
(hell, several even) at the very end, I'm not going to use them if the PCs
fail. If they don't stop the threat, they're going to have to live with
the results...

What I'm saying here is that the adventure in NAN2 has a major event that
has the potential to seriously affect at least Tsimshian, and probably the
whole northwestern area of North America, but BTB it won't happen -- which
I also don't like. Therefore, adventures simply can't ever have big events
happening in them because, like you said, success or failure both have a
drastic impact on the whole game world. But that leaves shadowrunners at
much the same level as petty thiefs -- they do other people's dirty work
but never get the chance to make a difference. Again not all that great a
solution...

> But Shadowrunners have always been a threat to society. They are, in
> effect, the anarchic section of society that is encouraging the
> destruction of that society.

Not sure... On the one hand they cause destruction and commit major
crimes, on the other they allow society to remain what it is right now.

> Associating the death of Dunklezahn [to infiltrate the shadows] as
> justification is illogical, that justification already exists, yet in
> game material, has failed to materialise itself.

I've mentioned the undercover Lone Star PC who's in my game several times;
however there's nothing in a sourcebook that says LS (or the FBI or
whoever) actually infiltrates shadowrunner society... Still, I don't think
that using Dunkelzahn's death as an excuse to put in more infiltrators is
illogical. For one thing, people tend to want to know who killed a
president, as well as prevent another such murder, so funding for
intelligence and law enforcement would probably go up. That means more
resources to solve or prevent other crimes as well.

> Absolutely, but only corporate funding should be able to put together an
> expedition that is likely to succeed. Maybe this was Dunky's way of
> attempting to "legalise" the Shadows, which would also have been a
> mistake.

That's partly what Dunk's Secrets also mentions, IIRC. I think it talks
about the smaller corps that suddenly earned a lot of money to research or
develop something would be major targets for (hostile) takeovers by the
megacorps. IMHO tha's not conducive to "legalizing" the shadows, because
it will only lead to more rivalry between megacorps when two or more were
gunning for the same target.

> Yeah, but then how many games do this. Success. A small fortune later,
> ghouls are a normal part of society because they no longer eat flesh,
> and are only chased after by the radical movements and groups opposed to
> their existence. FASA later release something that affects this, for
> instance, a situation where the world turns against the ghouls for an as
> yet unknown reason... Instnat conflict. OK, that's extreme, but...
> It's not like it hasn't happened.

That's very possible, yeah, and that ties in neatly with my comment above
about how SR adventures could really never have world-shocking events as
their result. The only exception would be if they're published by FASA and
are tied in with sourcebooks that come out at around the same time --
Super Tuesday for example.

> And, what happens? Conflict of interests resulting in open awarfare on
> the streets? Is there sufficient incentive in the will, to encourage
> corporations to go to war, I think there is, which is definately a
> problem for the "ordered" life in Shadowrun, but might be a good thing.

It could bring things back to the gritty atmosphere many of us want from
SR, yes. Corporations fighting it out is much more cyberpunk than
immortals pulling the strings behind the scenes.

> >OTOH, should the runners make a nearly identical run against
> >a corp to steal the data on a new kind of mint-flavored toothpaste, all
> >the "higher stakes" stuff doesn't apply -- that is a run just like
those
> >everybody used to do in 2050...
>
> 2050 is gone Gurth, I miss it as much as others do, and the world is
> getting to ordered and legal for my tastes, which is why I, along with
> others continue the urban decay theme and increase the anarchy and
> violent reactions of government and law enforcement to control it.

IOW, back to the old days of SR. 2050-style runs can be very cool yet they
don't impact much of the world (although adventures like DNA/DOA are ab it
far-fetched, I think).

> >> <snikker>
> >
> >Stilt stevige trek!
>
> "something" is quite a drag???

An old advertising slogan for a chocolate bar with peanuts in it :) I'll
let you ponder what it means for a while longer...

--
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The future. Available tomorrow.
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Message no. 15
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:41:28 +0000
In article <19971122.111549.4807.0.z-i-m@****.com>, Tim Cooper <z-i-
m@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Quality
>On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:16:52 +0000 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
>writes:
>>In article <199711211019.LAA01974@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
>><gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Quality
>>>Avenger said on 1:41/21 Nov 97...
>>>*SPOILER for CP2020 players who don't want to know about the 3rd
>>edition*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>I think it's in Cybergeneration where RT mention that Cyberpunk is no
>>longer Cyberpunk, it's CorporatePunk... Maybe this is just their way of
>>cleaning the game up to get it back into the deep and dirty where they
>>feel it should be.
>
>Oh man.. was *that* ever the biggest piece-of-crap-game I've ever read...
>borrowed it and skimmed it and was sick of the "here's the game, here's
>what you'll play, here's how you'll behave and think, here's the
>important people you'll take orders from and admire.. here's the 4 lame
>powers that you'll have to make you the perfect little group.."

Agreed with all of the above. I bought it thinking it would complement
the Cyberpunk literature, only to find that in the main it was unusable.
I did find some of the comments in the book interesting, but in the
main, it wasn't what I expected.

>It
>looked like a cheap anime, with the depth of acetate....

That's possibly a harsh description of cheap anime.

>or was that
>intentional?

No idea. It may have been intentional. The modules that were released
to complement the source book were very much in the same line. As far
as I can tell, the intention was to get the players of cyberpunk to
realise that they were playing youths. People who were trying to crawl
up out of the gutter and make a name for themselves. A disaffected
disassociated group of no-hopers who's only aim in life was to improve,
whether that be through style, cyber or method was up to the players.
In the main, CP has lost it's way, it's no longer a game of pain and
achievement, it's a game of logistics. Who's got the best
armour/gun/cyber... A bit like some Shadowrun games really :)

Unfortunately, for me at least, Cybergeneration failed. Though it does
have a few useful elements.


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
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Message no. 16
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:17:44 +0000
In article <199711231938.UAA29553@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Quality
>Avenger said on 18:33/22 Nov 97...
>
>> >> >*SPOILER for CP2020 players who don't want to know about the 3rd
edition*
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> cities, surrounded by hostile countryside populated by outlaws and
>> survival types... Max 1 the other two Max films don't fit the genre so
>> well.
>
>It fits better with Mad Max 1, yeah... When someone mentions Mad Max,
>though, I tend to think of parts 2 and 3 ;)

I don't. Although I enjoyed the other two films, they didn't really
have the same impact and desperation of the first one. Max had become a
superbeing, and the third one, although a great adventure movie, and
Tina was completely over the top, with Rose as her "enforcer" it was
too, I don't know, "kiddie", there was too much of the feel good factor
and this is "fun" attitude. Max set a world that was violent and Max3
turned it all into a game and grand joke.. Never mind, there won't be
anymore now.

>> I don't have first edition CP, so I can't comment there,
>
>I don't have it either, but unless I've been wrongly informed it was set
>in 2013.

Alledgely, yes.

>> But. And this is where I fall down a bit, I'm not that familiar with
>> what exactly the third edition will be offering.
>
>Neither am I, and I'm not exactly a die-hard CP2020 player either. I
>bought the books mainly to have as part of the RPG collection, and to
>steal bits to weld onto Shadowrun :)

Ditto. If nothing else, CP has some nice toys to play with :) Some
godawful ones as well, like kevlar head-bands, but there are a few nice
bits and pieces. :)

>malfunction or other. We didn't get to see any cities, so the main
>impression it left with me is that they turned it into something like the
>world portrayed in The Road Warrior, not the original Mad Max (to stick to
>that analogy).

Sounds very much like the impression given over by the box set "Land of
the Free". The runners in that one escape from New York (I think) in a
blimp, and come down in hte midwest, using Nomads to get them across
country. Very Road Warrior... The cities, again, seem to be
concentrated mostly in the coastal regions.

>> this is a good thing, but when garbage like the Horrors is dumped into
>> the collective lap, I get somewhat twitchy. :)
>
>At least FASA asked players to send in their comments about the "Enemy" in
>HB, so that implies they were intending to listen to the gamers about
>whether or not to put Horrors into SR.

RTG also ask for player input, occassionally, like he new sourcebooks
for "US cities in BGC", they're not replying yet as far as I know, but
they've been busily stea^h^h^h borrowing things fromt he net again. :)
What this means for BGC I don't know. Mind you, with the knew Rigger
rules, I now have justification for sticking Boomers into the streets
<VEGMG>

>> Hmmm... Sounds kinda strange to me. Was some of this the interpretation
>> of the person running the game, or from information provided. If RT are
>> going to shift the emphasis on power to the orbitals and "spacers" I
>> can't say I'm overly impressed. That's taking the game into Asimov
>> realms, not Cyberpunk.
>
>I believe they'd gotten an adventure and some background information from
>Talsorian in the US, and ran that. After the adventure, IIRC, the GM did
>tell us that some parts of the adventure were her extrapolating on that
>info in order to cover some events.

Righto. Still not sure if the intention is to do away with "civilised
society" and turn it all into some mad selective enclave desert. If
this is the intention, and who can say what destruction will be wrought
by the corps during hte fourth war... I don't foresee this as a good
development. Unless of course, RTG have decided to drop the cyberpunk
aspect of the game, and go for a purer Science fiction approach... BE a
shame if they have, but might make for a curious alternative world. I
suppose we'll just have to wait for third edition, and see what they've
done. Hopefully SR3 will return a little bit more to emphasis on the
streets and world situation and get out of the corporate boardrooms. As
somebody else said in another thread, there are only so many top secret
super developments that you can steal from the corps... Not everything
is going to be a mega secret "something strange" datasteal. Most likely
you are right, and the majority of runs will be for a new type of
toothpaste (I must throw that one at my players...) <g>

>> rather too much for the game to tolerate. Killing him was really the
>> only option to save the game, but that's just my opinion.
>
>Probably true... OTOH the problem wouldn't have even existed, really, if
>he hadn't run for president. The revelations he wanted to make would have
>been sitting far in the background together with the rest of the EI/Horror
>plotline.

Dunky running for president was what I would call "Wish fullfillment".
It was somebody's idea of a really c... c... co^h^h^h I can't say it,
sorry, a really neat idea, and introduced it, later realising just how
much of a problem they had when all those little voting cards suddenly
flooded their mailroom with VOTE Dunky ticked. Who knows. Only FASA,
and there's no way they'd ever admit it was an error that got out of
control :) Then again... Conspiracy theories are the meat of Shadowrun
- aren't they? <g>

>> "bad guys" parents and pressure groups disaprove of that sort of
thing,
>> and it's something that many take into account when producing material.
>
>IMHO that is one of the biggest problems with most RPGs originating in the
>USA. The general public there tend to have much bigger problems with
>(what are perceived to be) controversial issues, so many companies try to
>avoid them altogether.

In many ways we are very lucky in Europe and the UK. We don't have the
problems that exist in the US, plus we're not Americans <sluy grin>, but
in other ways we're unfortunate. We have to wait several weeks to
months for the books to arrive, we pay inflated prices that are bloated
beyond normal exchange rates, and we don't have access to FASA. It's
not that difficult for an irate fan to storm the foyer of the FASA
building in Chicago ... all they have to do is get there. A bit
different to swimming the toxic pond. :)

>> Even Rifts has a disclaimer concerning the magic and violence content in
>> the front of the books, and I just can't see that game being taken
>> seriously.
>
>I never played or even read Rifts, so I can't comment here.

Rifts has got some serious problems. It's a game designed for high
power play and munchkins. But, it does have some beautifully designed
source books, and some of the best art available in RPGs. The toys are
so over the top, they're almost obscene, but they do have potential, it
just takes a lot of tuning down. :)

>> on the law, rather than corporate enforcement. But that's just me, the
>> game is more oriented to corporate reaction.
>
>Since one of the PCs in my current group is an undercover Lone Star, it's
>focused on the law a bit more than on the corps, too. Plus the matter that
>all the PCs are rather scared of being arrested after a recent cock-up
>involving a forged SIN...

I've got a bunch of ex-grads and a government agent in my game at the
moment. They seem to be suffering some sort of "personality conflict" -
can't imagine why <grin> but at least they all have a deep respect for
the law enforcement forces. The possibilities of losing their SIN as a
result of illegal activities and losing all the benefits of owning one,
hasn't really sunk in yet, though they have an idea of what it would be
like. :)

>> their players and games to reflect the good side of things, some mix,
>> and others go for an all out "bad" game.
>
>Mine is edging toward the bad side, and as long as it makes for an
>enjoyable game I'm not going to stop the players from heading in that
>direction.

Mine are walking a middle ground at the moment, though I suppose
bludgeoning one poodle to death and throttling another may be construed
as skipping over the edge momentarily <grin>

>It might cause some problems to try and get them to do things
>they're not being paid for, though (like the fourth adventure from Super
>Tuesday, which didn't get beyond the initial encounter).

Haven't run that one at all. I read through it, and like the Missions
modules and Shadows series, I can't justify the characters involvement
in these areas, so, in order to escape from that responsibility I moved
the entire campaing back to Europe, the UCAS can go and do whatever it
wants to itself now. :)

I don't think my players would accept anything that didn't at least
cover their expenses, if only for the simple reason that they don't have
an awful lot of money for any length of time, and need more. Free work,
would be something that would demand a great deal of personal dedication
on the part of a single character, with the rest joining in from a
"buddy" point of view. There are possibilities for this, and I'm
working on one such scenario at the moment, but, I'm more inclined to
bring one of the poodles back as a revenant and haunt the players with a
yapping little spook for a while. :)

>> I must admit I like a darker side of life, where nobody is too sure who
>> is doing the "right thing" and can't trust anybody except themselves,
>> but then I like high paranoia contents in my game world.
>
>I like to keep players on the run. I give them all the option of whether
>or not to have a real, unforged SIN when the character is created, and
>explain (in short) the pros and cons of both choices.

Ditto. It's only fair to give the players the option. Depending on
what they choose, pretty much allows the GM to decide on how best to run
the initial game session, and allows for a lot of flexibility.

>Most opted for
>having one, and I'm hard at work to make them regret the decision ;)

I know that feeling. It's nice to have power... <grin>

>Leaving Seattle for Tsimshian when you're out on bail isn't a good idea,
>for example, and getting the Tsimshian police after you as well doesn't
>really improve matters. Paranoia is a good thing to put into adventures,
>IMHO, but I don't want to waste all the PCs because they're not paranoid.
>At least, not yet ;)

I feel quite sorry for my players. So far out of five runs, they've
only met the actual employer once. The last one led them a merry chace
around Germany, and a rather rapid exit after they killed someone... No
contact with their employer, no idea who they were working for, just a
remote nobody handing them instructions and a pay check. No Johnson, no
corporate offices or cars, nothing. They were definately under the
impression that this was a major set up. Imagine their surprise when it
worked, and they got away... :) Of course, there's always the aftermath
<grin>

Newton's Law I believe. For every action there's an equal and opposite
reaction? <smirk>

>> wastes time and money, incorporating it makes for headaches. (I'm
>> trying to be tactful and not use examples for those who either don't
>> have the latest stuff, or haven't run through it yet).
>
>When they do get involved in big events that can't be allowed to happen
>(from a continuity POV), it's just as bad. Our group is currently doing
>the NAN2 adventure, and although the adventure provides a safety net
>(hell, several even) at the very end, I'm not going to use them if the PCs
>fail. If they don't stop the threat, they're going to have to live with
>the results...

Agreed. I've had that problem. The PCs failed the One Stage Before
module, dismally, even to the point of assisting the main NPC... <grin>
and the NAN run was impressive in it's total demise of all substance and
reasoning. I've run all the modules except the ones mentioned earlier
and so far the teams have been very lucky, but the one's they've failied
have usualy been detrimental to the environment - like Bottled Demon.
They handed the article to the Elves, no problem with that, but then,
you know how curious elves are... they just can't help interfering with
things :)

>What I'm saying here is that the adventure in NAN2 has a major event that
>has the potential to seriously affect at least Tsimshian, and probably the
>whole northwestern area of North America, but BTB it won't happen -- which
>I also don't like.

No. If the team fail,then they suffer the consequences. Same thing
with radical changes to bodily functions. One of the players has just
got together enough money to make their first purchase of cyberware,
which will be a new set of eyes, we spent a couple of hours discussing
the likely problems arising from having these eyes fitted, and the
player agreed to the restrictions in use, when the Boosted reflexes get
stuck in, I shall sit back and watch the fun. I know the player is
capable of role playing the problems, and it should be entertaining.
Especially where the other players consider themselves "jokers"...

>drastic impact on the whole game world. But that leaves shadowrunners at
>much the same level as petty thiefs -- they do other people's dirty work
>but never get the chance to make a difference. Again not all that great a
>solution...


Depends on how you treat the game world really. I do allow hte players
to have a direct influence on many aspects of the game world, whether
it's a political assassination, extraction or datasteal, whatever they
do has an effect on some portion of the world. After all, the reasearch
data they steal concerning the new chip in design by "Monkey Business"
that Fuchi wants, might be enough to destroy the future hope of the
smaller company, their profit shares and market hold will be directly
influenced by Fuchi releasing hte chip before them, resulting in Fuchi
buying off the technicians and some of the staff. But lives will be
affected. The owner of Monkey Business has just lost everything, his
investment, his company and whatever else he's got sunk into it. I
don't expect the characters to agonise over that, hell it happens in
everyday business anyway, just so long as they are aware of the
consequences of what they do. They can deal with that knowledge however
they feel their characters should. There's quite a mix of morals and
idaels in the party at the moment, and it should be fun watching the
moral conflicts later on.

>> But Shadowrunners have always been a threat to society. They are, in
>> effect, the anarchic section of society that is encouraging the
>> destruction of that society.
>
>Not sure... On the one hand they cause destruction and commit major
>crimes, on the other they allow society to remain what it is right now.

Trying to be objective. Shadowrunners by their very nature are illegal
in every way. They use weapons, equipment and magic in ways that are
essentially illegal. They will kill to get what they want, and to make
the paycheck at the end of it all. They deal primarily with the
criminal section of society - dealers, fixers, fences. Cyberware is
invariably unlicenced as are their weapons. They assist companies in
industrial espionage and care not a whit for the consequences of these
actions. They do not obey the laws and statutes of any nation, invading
foreign territory and creating what are essentially international
incidents at a moments notice. Raiding datastores and hacking secure
systems breaking the laws of the matrix, copyright and data protection.
None of these acts are intentionally designed to "complement" society.
They are anarchistic in attitude, mercenary in behaviour and illegal by
existence.

Not, of course to say, that they couldn't work for the "good guys"<tm>

>> justification is illogical, that justification already exists, yet in
>> game material, has failed to materialise itself.
>
>I've mentioned the undercover Lone Star PC who's in my game several times;
>however there's nothing in a sourcebook that says LS (or the FBI or
>whoever) actually infiltrates shadowrunner society...

Only a vague comment in the Lone Star sourcebook, regarding the
undercover division. I do find it somewhat amusing that people who
operate outside of the laws of the nation, committing a variety of
crimes associated with B&E, yet there is no real task force (that I'm
aware of anyway). Curious isn't it?

Of course, one just had to invent such a force, and then plague the
characters with it at regular intervals. It is not SWAT HTFRT that they
worry about...

>Still, I don't think
>that using Dunkelzahn's death as an excuse to put in more infiltrators is
>illogical.

Maybe, maybe not to me it is. A task force investigating the event,
cause and effect would be more likely than a general increased presence.

>> attempting to "legalise" the Shadows, which would also have been a
>> mistake.
>
>That's partly what Dunk's Secrets also mentions, IIRC. I think it talks
>about the smaller corps that suddenly earned a lot of money to research or
>develop something would be major targets for (hostile) takeovers by the
>megacorps. IMHO tha's not conducive to "legalizing" the shadows,

Legalising the shadows. I may have used the wrong words, but I'll stick
with it and explore the possibilities here. The corporations want
whatever the "will item" is. They know that efficient teams of runners
exist. The better teams will possibly even be on a retainer, ready for
instant use, or even employed as "Special Forces/Assets" So, the
chances, IMNSHO would be that they would use in-house specialists rather
than rank amateurs from the streets who they effectively have no hold
over, and who owe then no loyalty. MOney talks, but it is limited in
it's abilities to make people face their maker - that's a different kind
of dedication. Assuming that the corp doesn't have any "assets" and
employs from the streets, they'll go to the named teams first, those
who's rep for excellence and efficiency under pressure has given them
value, working down the ladder only with reluctance. Whatever team
pulls the coup off, is not likely to return to the streets. They've
achieved something of value, and should be rewarded accordingly - as
loose ends, executed or employed. The shadows thin out considerably
because the good teams are being snapped up by corps who have suddenly
got a case of greed and want some of the "Dragon's Gold".

>because
>it will only lead to more rivalry between megacorps when two or more were
>gunning for the same target.

Corporate Wars anyone? <grin>

>> yet unknown reason... Instnat conflict. OK, that's extreme, but...
>> It's not like it hasn't happened.
>
>That's very possible, yeah, and that ties in neatly with my comment above
>about how SR adventures could really never have world-shocking events as
>their result. The only exception would be if they're published by FASA and
>are tied in with sourcebooks that come out at around the same time --
>Super Tuesday for example.

True enough, but sometimes even the outcomes of these can be
contradictory and create a situation where something has occurred that
"can't" happen. Unaffective runs get boring after a while. All the
heroes in the movies and the books make a difference, they achieve
something. The players rarely get that chance, when they do, it's
detrimental, normally to their "shadowy" nature. No easy way out
really.

>> corporations to go to war, I think there is, which is definately a
>> problem for the "ordered" life in Shadowrun, but might be a good thing.
>
>It could bring things back to the gritty atmosphere many of us want from
>SR, yes. Corporations fighting it out is much more cyberpunk than
>immortals pulling the strings behind the scenes.

If it's OK with you Gurth, I will heroically attempt not to comment. :)

>> getting to ordered and legal for my tastes, which is why I, along with
>> others continue the urban decay theme and increase the anarchy and
>> violent reactions of government and law enforcement to control it.
>
>IOW, back to the old days of SR.

<grin>

Funny, how come you can say that in 8 words, yet it takes me a whole
page? <grin> Was that the point I was trying to make? Yes, probably.
:)

>2050-style runs can be very cool yet they
>don't impact much of the world (although adventures like DNA/DOA are ab it
>far-fetched, I think).

Far fetched. Not as much as a couple I could mention. Though I did
have fun with the elastoplast walls...

>> "something" is quite a drag???
>
>An old advertising slogan for a chocolate bar with peanuts in it :) I'll
>let you ponder what it means for a while longer...

Ahhh... A chocolate bar with peanuts, well that pins it down to 30,000.
OK. I'll work on it. ;) (damn, time to dig out the tranaslator again)

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 17
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Quality
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:56:18 +1000
This ended up in my Inbox directly, so I am forwarding it on.

>>>>> And yet, the quality of the materials publshed in
>>>>> the Shadowrun universe hasn't gone done (IMNSHO), so I wonder if
Mike's
>>>>> just got a way about him that seems terse, or whatever.
>>>>(snipped)
>>>>
>>>>Hmm... Has the quality gone down? IMHO, yes.
>>>
>>>I'd agree with this, and I'm one of the types you mention below. I
>>>collect FASA products, it's a sort of compulsion... :)
>>
>>Just on this subject, although I don't think the quality has decreased to
>>much, the one thing I really dislike is the fact that they have killed
the
>>old Shadowtalk comments and replaced it with the new '> Blah Blah'
format.
>>Much more style in the older way of doing things.
>>
>
>I would say more accurately that the direction has changed, and with a new
line developer, this
>was to be expected. I, too, buy everything SR that comes out (and go
looking for more on the
>web), and can see the changes in direction and content, and yes, those
wonderful Sahdowtalk
>comments that endeared the game to me in the first place. I think Mike
and Steve have
>invigorated SR again, however, and I can speak from personal experience
that Steve is a
>talented, creative guy that loves the game, is intimately familiar with
all aspects of it, and
>is a valuable addition to the SR team.
>
>Argent
>
>Rabiola@**.netcom.com
>Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
>It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
>
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:43:17 +0100
Avenger said on 22:17/23 Nov 97...

> >It fits better with Mad Max 1, yeah... When someone mentions Mad Max,
> >though, I tend to think of parts 2 and 3 ;)
>
> I don't. Although I enjoyed the other two films, they didn't really
> have the same impact and desperation of the first one.

<movie critic>They had a different kind of desperation, especially #2. The
first was mostly our world but broken down (Max takes his wife out to a
picknick in between fighting bad guys who can do just about whatever they
want) while the other two were more a picture of people fighting to stay
alive after their society has been smashed to bits.</movie critic>

> Ditto. If nothing else, CP has some nice toys to play with :) Some
> godawful ones as well, like kevlar head-bands, but there are a few nice
> bits and pieces. :)

Hey, kevlar headbands are well and truly possible. They likely won't do
much to save you when you head-butt a bullet, though ;) CP2020, IMHO, has
lots of stuff that's partially to totally useless but is fun to have. This
is one thing I feel SR is lacking, but luckily it's easy enough to
improvise.

> Sounds very much like the impression given over by the box set "Land of
> the Free". The runners in that one escape from New York (I think) in a
> blimp, and come down in hte midwest, using Nomads to get them across
> country. Very Road Warrior... The cities, again, seem to be
> concentrated mostly in the coastal regions.

I thought that was a normal CP2020 adventure/expansion? As such, it should
be set in the same world as the rest of the game...

> >At least FASA asked players to send in their comments about the "Enemy"
in
> >HB, so that implies they were intending to listen to the gamers about
> >whether or not to put Horrors into SR.
>
> RTG also ask for player input, occassionally, like he new sourcebooks
> for "US cities in BGC", they're not replying yet as far as I know, but
> they've been busily stea^h^h^h borrowing things fromt he net again. :)

That, IMHO, is a very good move. There's a lot of good stuff on the net
that many gamers will never be exposed to simply because nobody in their
group has internet access. (Of course there's also a lot of crap stuff on
the net, but that can be filtered out by a competent line developer.)

> What this means for BGC I don't know. Mind you, with the knew Rigger
> rules, I now have justification for sticking Boomers into the streets
> <VEGMG>

Now if only I knew what a boomer is, apart from a nuclear submarine (which
I don't think anyone would want to have in a street ;)

> Righto. Still not sure if the intention is to do away with "civilised
> society" and turn it all into some mad selective enclave desert. If
> this is the intention, and who can say what destruction will be wrought
> by the corps during hte fourth war...

On the one hand, it appears to me like CP's equivalent to SR's Crash of
'29, but OTOH the jets that started strafing us were higher tech than
anything seen in the game so far.

> I don't foresee this as a good development. Unless of course, RTG have
> decided to drop the cyberpunk aspect of the game, and go for a purer
> Science fiction approach... BE a shame if they have, but might make for
> a curious alternative world.

That's the description I've been looking for :)

> Hopefully SR3 will return a little bit more to emphasis on the streets
> and world situation and get out of the corporate boardrooms. As
> somebody else said in another thread, there are only so many top secret
> super developments that you can steal from the corps...

...which tend to have a big impact on the world, too.

I don't think SR3 will change the direction the game is taking, though.
Everybody is expecting quite a lot of SR3 but I'm adopting a "wait and
see" attitude to what actually gets incorporated. For one thing, I doubt
we'll see any huge changes, either to the game rules or the background.

> Not everything is going to be a mega secret "something strange"
> datasteal. Most likely you are right, and the majority of runs will be
> for a new type of toothpaste (I must throw that one at my players...)
> <g>

And the good thing is that it's real easy to throw together... Also, as
FASA is so fond of pointing out, it's [Y]OUR game -- even if FASA says
that most runners do major jobs for the big corps, who says your players
can't be down on their luck stealing toothpaste recipies from a corp with
5 employees and a 200 m^2 office/lab/production facility in Redmond?

> >Probably true... OTOH the problem wouldn't have even existed, really, if
> >he hadn't run for president. The revelations he wanted to make would have
> >been sitting far in the background together with the rest of the EI/Horror
> >plotline.
>
> Dunky running for president was what I would call "Wish fullfillment".
> It was somebody's idea of a really c... c... co^h^h^h I can't say it,
> sorry, a really neat idea, and introduced it, later realising just how
> much of a problem they had when all those little voting cards suddenly
> flooded their mailroom with VOTE Dunky ticked.

Possibly... I guess only the people directly involved know the truth here,
and I don't think they're talking. ("You can't handle the truth!" :)

> >IMHO that is one of the biggest problems with most RPGs originating in the
> >USA. The general public there tend to have much bigger problems with
> >(what are perceived to be) controversial issues, so many companies try to
> >avoid them altogether.
>
> In many ways we are very lucky in Europe and the UK.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Same thing, unless of course you're talking to a UK citizen :)

> We don't have the problems that exist in the US, plus we're not
> Americans <sluy grin>, but in other ways we're unfortunate. We have to
> wait several weeks to months for the books to arrive, we pay inflated
> prices that are bloated beyond normal exchange rates, and we don't have
> access to FASA. It's not that difficult for an irate fan to storm the
> foyer of the FASA building in Chicago ... all they have to do is get
> there. A bit different to swimming the toxic pond. :)

I don't mind the higher prices (hey, everything here costs more than in
the US without there being a good reason for it) or the delays that much,
the thing I see as the biggest problem is that all the neat stuff is over
in the US -- I'd like to go to GenCon, for example, but like you say
there's an ocean in the way...

> I've got a bunch of ex-grads and a government agent in my game at the
> moment. They seem to be suffering some sort of "personality conflict" -
> can't imagine why <grin> but at least they all have a deep respect for
> the law enforcement forces. The possibilities of losing their SIN as a
> result of illegal activities and losing all the benefits of owning one,
> hasn't really sunk in yet, though they have an idea of what it would be
> like. :)

My players, at least the way I see it, only saw the advantages of having a
SIN, and the disadvantages of not having one. They're learning now that
with a SIN, you can be tracked wherever you go...

> Mine are walking a middle ground at the moment, though I suppose
> bludgeoning one poodle to death and throttling another may be construed
> as skipping over the edge momentarily <grin>

Not entirely rational behaviour... ;)

> >It might cause some problems to try and get them to do things
> >they're not being paid for, though (like the fourth adventure from Super
> >Tuesday, which didn't get beyond the initial encounter).
>
> Haven't run that one at all. I read through it, and like the Missions
> modules and Shadows series, I can't justify the characters involvement
> in these areas, so, in order to escape from that responsibility I moved
> the entire campaing back to Europe, the UCAS can go and do whatever it
> wants to itself now. :)

I did run Super Tuesday, and I liked the adventures. However it is a bit
implausible that the same group of runners ends up working for or against
just about every presidential candidate for the current elections... I
don't have any of the other recent adventures except Mob War, which I had
to get because a recently deceased PC was heavily involved with both the
Mob and the Yaks. I think I'll just use that adventure as background
material now, though.

> I don't think my players would accept anything that didn't at least
> cover their expenses, if only for the simple reason that they don't have
> an awful lot of money for any length of time, and need more. Free work,
> would be something that would demand a great deal of personal dedication
> on the part of a single character, with the rest joining in from a
> "buddy" point of view. There are possibilities for this, and I'm
> working on one such scenario at the moment, but, I'm more inclined to
> bring one of the poodles back as a revenant and haunt the players with a
> yapping little spook for a while. :)

My players are complaining about how little they're getting paid for
recent runs. They want to make more money and don't really seem to care
who or what they're working for; still, it's mostly their own fault that
rewards are going down -- messing up two runs in a row isn't good for
their reputation... They really want to bring the current one to a good
ending, but it's not looking all that bright. And thye don't know the
consequences of failure yet... *GM grin*

> >I like to keep players on the run. I give them all the option of whether
> >or not to have a real, unforged SIN when the character is created, and
> >explain (in short) the pros and cons of both choices.
>
> Ditto. It's only fair to give the players the option. Depending on
> what they choose, pretty much allows the GM to decide on how best to run
> the initial game session, and allows for a lot of flexibility.

It also allows for them to have permits for the stuff they want to have
them for, and that in turn can be used by the GM to put pressure on the
PCs when necessary for the story -- having some cyberware-with-permit and
some without means the cops _know_ you've got 'ware, so they might be
keeping an extra eye on you...

> Newton's Law I believe. For every action there's an equal and opposite
> reaction? <smirk>

His third, if I remember my physics classes right :)

> >When they do get involved in big events that can't be allowed to happen
> >(from a continuity POV), it's just as bad. Our group is currently doing
> >the NAN2 adventure, and although the adventure provides a safety net
> >(hell, several even) at the very end, I'm not going to use them if the PCs
> >fail. If they don't stop the threat, they're going to have to live with
> >the results...
>
> Agreed. I've had that problem. The PCs failed the One Stage Before
> module, dismally, even to the point of assisting the main NPC... <grin>

Mine didn't do quite _that_ bad in that adventure. "All" they did was get
two of the musicians killed (well, to be fair, one was the victim of a
stray shot by one of his own guards).

> Especially where the other players consider themselves "jokers"...

Ooooh, that can be bad too... For relations between the characters, I
mean. In another session, where I wanted to run the Universal Brotherhood
without having to seriously alter the timeline of the ongoing campaign,
one of the players decided he wanted to be a troll Scatterbrains ganger
(see the Underworld sourcebook), which is fine by me. [Un]fortunately, one
of the other players plays a combat decker who has tends to get pissed off
easily, and has a habit of shooting first and asking questions later...

> >Not sure... On the one hand they cause destruction and commit major
> >crimes, on the other they allow society to remain what it is right now.
>
> Trying to be objective. Shadowrunners by their very nature are illegal
> in every way. They use weapons, equipment and magic in ways that are
> essentially illegal. They will kill to get what they want, and to make
> the paycheck at the end of it all. [snip]

All very true, but society (at least the top levels of the big corps)
_wants_ shadowrunners to exist, which means those runners help keep
society the way it is, even if that same society (this time the majority)
would probably prefer them to disappear once and for all.

> Not, of course to say, that they couldn't work for the "good
guys"<tm>

Only if the good guys pay enough :)

> >I've mentioned the undercover Lone Star PC who's in my game several times;
> >however there's nothing in a sourcebook that says LS (or the FBI or
> >whoever) actually infiltrates shadowrunner society...
>
> Only a vague comment in the Lone Star sourcebook, regarding the
> undercover division. I do find it somewhat amusing that people who
> operate outside of the laws of the nation, committing a variety of
> crimes associated with B&E, yet there is no real task force (that I'm
> aware of anyway). Curious isn't it?

The security corps probably blaim it on getting paid too little by the
government to do something about this problem... :)

> >That's partly what Dunk's Secrets also mentions, IIRC. I think it talks
> >about the smaller corps that suddenly earned a lot of money to research or
> >develop something would be major targets for (hostile) takeovers by the
> >megacorps. IMHO tha's not conducive to "legalizing" the shadows,
>
> Legalising the shadows. I may have used the wrong words, but I'll stick
> with it and explore the possibilities here. The corporations want
> whatever the "will item" is. They know that efficient teams of runners
> exist. The better teams will possibly even be on a retainer, ready for
> instant use, or even employed as "Special Forces/Assets" So, the
> chances, IMNSHO would be that they would use in-house specialists rather
> than rank amateurs from the streets who they effectively have no hold
> over, and who owe then no loyalty.

This is blurring the lines between a corporate strike team (made up of
full-time corporate employees) and shadowrunners (freelancers). As I
understand it, corps use shadowrunners exactly _because_ they work for
whoever pays their bills, and owe no allegiance to any particular
corporation. That makes it much harder to trace who was behind the raid
that blew up your R&D division than when you've got security camera
footage that can be compared to (illegally obtained, of course) employee
records of other corps. Always using the same shadowrunners has much the
same risks, IMHO -- you ask around on the street and find out that sam X
and mage Y have been working exclusively for a Mr. Johnson rumored to be
with Fuchi for the past year.

> Whatever team pulls the coup off, is not likely to return to the
> streets. They've achieved something of value, and should be rewarded
> accordingly - as loose ends, executed or employed. The shadows thin out
> considerably because the good teams are being snapped up by corps who
> have suddenly got a case of greed and want some of the "Dragon's Gold".

For the reasons I mentioned above, I don't think that will happen unless
the runners are _really_ good, so good that the corp thinks it would be
best to have them working only for them rather than possibly face them in
the future. Not many runners are in those leagues, IMHO.

> True enough, but sometimes even the outcomes of these can be
> contradictory and create a situation where something has occurred that
> "can't" happen. Unaffective runs get boring after a while. All the
> heroes in the movies and the books make a difference, they achieve
> something. The players rarely get that chance, when they do, it's
> detrimental, normally to their "shadowy" nature. No easy way out
> really.

In essence we've got a vicious circle here -- we can't have big runs
because that'll be a lot of work for the GM, but we can't have minor runs
either because they're no fun after a while... Having a little of both is
most likely the best solution.

> >It could bring things back to the gritty atmosphere many of us want from
> >SR, yes. Corporations fighting it out is much more cyberpunk than
> >immortals pulling the strings behind the scenes.
>
> If it's OK with you Gurth, I will heroically attempt not to comment. :)

Seeing how you succeeded, perhaps someone should recommend you for a
medal ;)

> >IOW, back to the old days of SR.
>
> <grin>
>
> Funny, how come you can say that in 8 words, yet it takes me a whole
> page? <grin>

Because you type too much on principle? ;)

> >An old advertising slogan for a chocolate bar with peanuts in it :) I'll
> >let you ponder what it means for a while longer...
>
> Ahhh... A chocolate bar with peanuts, well that pins it down to 30,000.
> OK. I'll work on it. ;) (damn, time to dig out the tranaslator again)

Oh yeah, that's right, you had a Dutch <-> English translator proggy...
What did it make of that slogan?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We must remember that the news itself is only entertainment.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:02:29 +0000
In article <mvBXHdAIuKe0Ew+B@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
<Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>In article <199711231938.UAA29553@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
><gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Quality

>>It fits better with Mad Max 1, yeah... When someone mentions Mad Max,
>>though, I tend to think of parts 2 and 3 ;)
>
>I don't. Although I enjoyed the other two films, they didn't really
>have the same impact and desperation of the first one. Max had become a
>superbeing,

Not so much in the second. He was a trained man, in a world that were
mostly amateurs who were learning by Darwin. The third, yeah, he was
edging towards superhero status by then.

The first Mad Max film, though, is how I see tracts of North America
being in the 2050s: safer in cities, but small towns are at risk from
larger gangs, and only the brave or the stupid travel the highways
alone.

>>Mine is edging toward the bad side, and as long as it makes for an
>>enjoyable game I'm not going to stop the players from heading in that
>>direction.
>
>Mine are walking a middle ground at the moment, though I suppose
>bludgeoning one poodle to death and throttling another may be construed
>as skipping over the edge momentarily <grin>

My character just killed someone: the first time he killed another human
being. He's still not sure how he feels about that. Pete doubtless has
plans with which to amuse the player and torment the character :)

>I don't think my players would accept anything that didn't at least
>cover their expenses, if only for the simple reason that they don't have
>an awful lot of money for any length of time, and need more.

Damn right. We're being asked to do something dangerous and/or illegal,
we want to be paid for it. It's safe and legal? Then why are you hiring
_us_?

>Free work,
>would be something that would demand a great deal of personal dedication
>on the part of a single character, with the rest joining in from a
>"buddy" point of view. There are possibilities for this, and I'm
>working on one such scenario at the moment, but, I'm more inclined to
>bring one of the poodles back as a revenant and haunt the players with a
>yapping little spook for a while. :)

Oh, no, not the ghost of Frou-Frou pursuing us for all eternity...

>>That's very possible, yeah, and that ties in neatly with my comment above
>>about how SR adventures could really never have world-shocking events as
>>their result. The only exception would be if they're published by FASA and
>>are tied in with sourcebooks that come out at around the same time --
>>Super Tuesday for example.
>
>True enough, but sometimes even the outcomes of these can be
>contradictory and create a situation where something has occurred that
>"can't" happen. Unaffective runs get boring after a while. All the
>heroes in the movies and the books make a difference, they achieve
>something. The players rarely get that chance, when they do, it's
>detrimental, normally to their "shadowy" nature. No easy way out
>really.

Define "unaffective". If the NPCs have been built up right, saving the
local Stuffer Shack from the attentions of a streetgang can be downright
satisfying: you've made several people's lives better, reduced the
influence of the gang, made some enemies, maybe started a street war
(that if you leave will be fought against the people you helped)...

"Satisfying" and "world-shaking" don't have to be the same thing (yes,
Pete, I know I've told you about some of our megaplots, but not
everything is _that_ large-scale).

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:10:27 +0000
In article <199711241943.UAA13673@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Quality
>Avenger said on 22:17/23 Nov 97...
>> Ditto. If nothing else, CP has some nice toys to play with :) Some
>> godawful ones as well, like kevlar head-bands, but there are a few nice
>> bits and pieces. :)
>
>Hey, kevlar headbands are well and truly possible.

But ultimately pointless. The only advantage is that the coroner
doesn't have to dig the bullet out of your brain with forseps, he just
pulls both ends of the headband ... <g> Similar to the early use of
silk in removing arrows.

>They likely won't do
>much to save you when you head-butt a bullet, though ;)

That conjures some interesting mental pictures. :)

>CP2020, IMHO, has
>lots of stuff that's partially to totally useless but is fun to have.

Bar in a briefcase, shower in a can? <g>

> This
>is one thing I feel SR is lacking, but luckily it's easy enough to
>improvise.

SR definately does not have enough toys for hte players to waste their
money on. I think in all honesty something should be done about that.
I believe there's another "gear" book slated for next year, though it'll
probably have more bio/cyber/guns than toys.

>> country. Very Road Warrior... The cities, again, seem to be
>> concentrated mostly in the coastal regions.
>
>I thought that was a normal CP2020 adventure/expansion? As such, it should
>be set in the same world as the rest of the game...

Yes and yes. Which is why I made the connection between what you
described and that module - Hence the "sounds like..." :)

>> RTG also ask for player input, occassionally, like he new sourcebooks
>> for "US cities in BGC", they're not replying yet as far as I know, but
>> they've been busily stea^h^h^h borrowing things fromt he net again. :)
>
>That, IMHO, is a very good move.

Agreed. The players use the books, rules and information. IMNSHO it is
they who are integral to the survival of the game and it's development.
However, they can also destroy a game that way. ANd although in many
cases the people who have net access will, for some reason known only to
themselves, make superb efforts to produce material for their favourite
passtime, it does cut out a lot of gaming groups, idaes and such like.
I wonder, though, what the ration of players with net access is to those
without. Cyberpunk/Shadowrun/et al, seem to encourage an exploration of
this medium, and are definately disappointing if the Internet doesn't
resemble the Matrix. But then, with the kind of crap adverts on the TV
these days, it's a miracle anybody knows what the Internet is anymore.
Why doesn't everywhere have the MSN/IBM/AOL logo all over it? And the
classic question... "The Internet is crap, there's nothing interesting
up there."

<picks up large plank of wood and smacks offending oik in the head>

>There's a lot of good stuff on the net
>that many gamers will never be exposed to simply because nobody in their
>group has internet access. (Of course there's also a lot of crap stuff on
>the net, but that can be filtered out by a competent line developer.)

Yes. Crap. This does seem to be the prevelant content unfortunately.
:)

But once found, it's recognisable, and easily avoided in the future.

>> What this means for BGC I don't know. Mind you, with the knew Rigger
>> rules, I now have justification for sticking Boomers into the streets
>> <VEGMG>
>
>Now if only I knew what a boomer is, apart from a nuclear submarine (which
>I don't think anyone would want to have in a street ;)

Boomers in BGC are cyborgs, combat cyborgs, with some serious attitude
problems. Fraggin' dangerous cyborgs in fact. Incredibly strong,
flight capable, seriously heavy weaponry, heavy armour. Not nice. :)

>> society" and turn it all into some mad selective enclave desert. If
>> this is the intention, and who can say what destruction will be wrought
>> by the corps during hte fourth war...
>
>On the one hand, it appears to me like CP's equivalent to SR's Crash of
>'29, but OTOH the jets that started strafing us were higher tech than
>anything seen in the game so far.

Could be I suppose. But that wouldn't have the effects that you seem to
think were occuring. Hmmm.. Oh well, have to wait for the official
release I suppose, and see where Firestorm is taking the game.

>> Science fiction approach... BE a shame if they have, but might make for
>> a curious alternative world.
>
>That's the description I've been looking for :)

:) Glad I could help.

>> somebody else said in another thread, there are only so many top secret
>> super developments that you can steal from the corps...
>
>...which tend to have a big impact on the world, too.
>
>I don't think SR3 will change the direction the game is taking, though.
>Everybody is expecting quite a lot of SR3 but

That's understandable. It threatens to affect a great deal of the
rules, and clear up some misinterpretations. Now, if Mike can lock it
down so tight that the powergamers and munchies have to play "normally"
I have a feeling it will be greeted with some hostility. <g> On the
other hand. It is possible that it could take Shadowrun in a radically
different direction. It is after all, several years on. :)

>I'm adopting a "wait and
>see" attitude to what actually gets incorporated. For one thing, I doubt
>we'll see any huge changes, either to the game rules or the background.

That's probably the best attitude to take. I have "looked forward with
eagerness" to the last few releases, and been disappointed, this time
I'll wait and see, and change if it suits me. :)

>that most runners do major jobs for the big corps, who says your players
>can't be down on their luck stealing toothpaste recipies from a corp with
>5 employees and a 200 m^2 office/lab/production facility in Redmond?

Oh I was just thinking of the fun I could have with this. I think in
all honesty, my players would be more than grateful for a "steal the
toothpaste formula" job, it might pay more than what they've been
earning so far. :) (Serves them right, they shouldn't have opened the
box) It occured to me I could really screw them over on a Christmas run
with this idea.

>> much of a problem they had when all those little voting cards suddenly
>> flooded their mailroom with VOTE Dunky ticked.
>
>Possibly... I guess only the people directly involved know the truth here,
>and I don't think they're talking. ("You can't handle the truth!" :)

That's right. The truth is out there, but you can't have it. <lights
another Marlboro>

>> In many ways we are very lucky in Europe and the UK.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Same thing, unless of course you're talking to a UK citizen :)

Precisely, and although it is the same thing, there are people from the
UK here who are "from the UK" <grin> The last time I described the UK
as being part of Europe, Blaze went a little ape... :)

>> foyer of the FASA building in Chicago ... all they have to do is get
>> there. A bit different to swimming the toxic pond. :)
>
>I don't mind the higher prices

I do... I object strenuously to paying twice what the yanks do for a
FASA sourcebook, it annoys me endlessly. However, that's not really
here or there is it. There's naff all I can do about it. WAiting for
stuff to arrive mail order from the states is like waiting for doomsday.
<thinks of last order from FASA - and the 18 month gap...>

>in the US -- I'd like to go to GenCon, for example, but like you say
>there's an ocean in the way...

Yeah. :( me too... I would love to go to GenCon, but that piece of
water is damned expensive.

>> result of illegal activities and losing all the benefits of owning one,
>> hasn't really sunk in yet, though they have an idea of what it would be
>> like. :)
>
>My players, at least the way I see it, only saw the advantages of having a
>SIN, and the disadvantages of not having one. They're learning now that
>with a SIN, you can be tracked wherever you go...

<grin> Bit like credsticks - every transaction is recorded, every time
you use it, it flags a little electronic signal that says "payment
made". It took my players ages to figure out how they were being
tracked last year - they're a damn sight more careful now. :) But,
SINs, well, they haven't had one before - not in the UK anyway <smug
smirk>

>> Mine are walking a middle ground at the moment, though I suppose
>> bludgeoning one poodle to death and throttling another may be construed
>> as skipping over the edge momentarily <grin>
>
>Not entirely rational behaviour... ;)

They might argue that point - they keep telling me it was "an
accident"... :)

>don't have any of the other recent adventures except Mob War, which I had
>to get because a recently deceased PC was heavily involved with both the
>Mob and the Yaks. I think I'll just use that adventure as background
>material now, though.

Only just got hold of MobWar. For some strange reason the damn thing
was like Golddust in this country, it took my usual supplier several
months to track a copy down, can't say it was worth the wait though.
Nice possibilities - with a bit of work, but as you say, background
material.

>> working on one such scenario at the moment, but, I'm more inclined to
>> bring one of the poodles back as a revenant and haunt the players with a
>> yapping little spook for a while. :)
>
>My players are complaining about how little they're getting paid for
>recent runs.

:) Yep, had that. Then they complained because they were being paid too
much for one run, and got all twitchy and paranoid about it. Of course,
not ever meeting the employer might have had something to do with that.

>their reputation... They really want to bring the current one to a good
>ending, but it's not looking all that bright. And thye don't know the
>consequences of failure yet... *GM grin*

Mine do... sort of. So far, I think they are under the impression that
failure means they pay more and make less profit. Although one of the
players now has a cop hunting him... <grin>

Moral of that story... Don't annoy the police. :)

>> what they choose, pretty much allows the GM to decide on how best to run
>> the initial game session, and allows for a lot of flexibility.
>
>It also allows for them to have permits for the stuff they want to have
>them for, and that in turn can be used by the GM to put pressure on the
>PCs when necessary for the story -- having some cyberware-with-permit and
>some without means the cops _know_ you've got 'ware, so they might be
>keeping an extra eye on you...

Might? Nah, they don't need to. Any trafficam/securitycam will pick
them up (who wears a mask _all_ day long?) Once they have a picture,
the police only need to call up the details in their database to find
out what the "offender" has implanted, and ... :)

>> Especially where the other players consider themselves "jokers"...
>
>Ooooh, that can be bad too... For relations between the characters, I
>mean.

Yep. A recent prank involving a toxic pizza and a university upset one
of the players. Presently an attitude conflict between the
"professional" of the party, and the amateur "pranksters" has led to
that character being labelled "Ice Maiden". One player - I believe - is
now adopting the tactic of handing her his beer, so it's nicely chilled
before drinking. One day she's going to lace it with laxative -
industrial strength. :)

>In another session, where I wanted to run the Universal Brotherhood
>without having to seriously alter the timeline of the ongoing campaign,
>one of the players decided he wanted to be a troll Scatterbrains ganger
>(see the Underworld sourcebook),

Oh dear. Jim Carey/Kenny Everett/Benny Hill/Richard Prior and the three
stooges - in a Troll - Ouch.

>which is fine by me. [Un]fortunately, one
>of the other players plays a combat decker who has tends to get pissed off
>easily, and has a habit of shooting first and asking questions later...

Had one of those, but he was a combat mage. The rest of the players let
him run the "hiring now" interviews... Unfortunately if the character
didn't like the applicant sufficiently, a corpse was removed from the
area. Then they had the audacity to ask why they didn't get any
applicants anymore ... <Huh??? You need to ask???>

>> Trying to be objective. Shadowrunners by their very nature are illegal
>> in every way. They use weapons, equipment and magic in ways that are
>> essentially illegal. They will kill to get what they want, and to make
>> the paycheck at the end of it all. [snip]
>
>All very true, but society (at least the top levels of the big corps)
>_wants_ shadowrunners to exist, which means those runners help keep
>society the way it is, even if that same society (this time the majority)
>would probably prefer them to disappear once and for all.

The favourite phrase - deniable assets. "No officer, nothing to do with
us. They said that did they? Well, what can you expect from scum like
that. Of course I have an alibi officer."

>> Not, of course to say, that they couldn't work for the "good
guys"<tm>
>
>Only if the good guys pay enough :)

money money money... can't get enough of it, can't do anything with it,
who wants to be a millionaire?

Work for free, it's different. :)

>> operate outside of the laws of the nation, committing a variety of
>> crimes associated with B&E, yet there is no real task force (that I'm
>> aware of anyway). Curious isn't it?
>
>The security corps probably blaim it on getting paid too little by the
>government to do something about this problem... :)

Lone Star on a wages strike... Shades of Robocop... :)

>> chances, IMNSHO would be that they would use in-house specialists rather
>> than rank amateurs from the streets who they effectively have no hold
>> over, and who owe then no loyalty.
>
>This is blurring the lines between a corporate strike team (made up of
>full-time corporate employees) and shadowrunners (freelancers).

Who best to make up the strike teams. Experienced military commanders
and personnel who are not used to 24 hours urban combat... and
logistical support, or experienced runners who have survived for a few
years on the streets and know all the tricks? I'd go for the runners
myself. :) Hire them, we all know what these military types are like.
If at first you don't succeed, bring in the artillery, armour and air
force. <g>

>As I
>understand it, corps use shadowrunners exactly _because_ they work for
>whoever pays their bills, and owe no allegiance to any particular
>corporation.

But, they can be convinced to do something for even more - money...
Like betray the uncaring corporation they were employed by, who is going
to betray them anyway... <sigh>

>That makes it much harder to trace who was behind the raid
>that blew up your R&D division than when you've got security camera
>footage that can be compared to (illegally obtained, of course) employee
>records of other corps.

I can't think of the book, unfortunately. BUt the corporation in it has
"deniable assets" on retainer. They leave a sign somewhere, newspapers,
advertisement, location and that activates a team. The team recieves
instructions by remote at a predetermined location - mentioned in code
in the "sign" and off they go. Turns out the corp has sixteen teams
like this, and is caught out in the end, when one exec goes for
promotion, and sets up his superior by activating a second team and
sending it against the first.

These teams, work exclusively for the one corporation, but they don't
know that, just that they are given a certain amount of money to keep
them comfortable, and access to "interesting" equipment.

>Always using the same shadowrunners has much the
>same risks, IMHO -- you ask around on the street and find out that sam X
>and mage Y have been working exclusively for a Mr. Johnson rumored to be
>with Fuchi for the past year.

Assuming the teams/runners themselves know who they're working for.
"Johnson" is supposed to be immutable. He/she is the guy between the
corps and runners and the shield for both. Nobody frags with a Johnson,
it's bad for biz. :)

>> considerably because the good teams are being snapped up by corps who
>> have suddenly got a case of greed and want some of the "Dragon's Gold".
>
>For the reasons I mentioned above, I don't think that will happen unless
>the runners are _really_ good, so good that the corp thinks it would be
>best to have them working only for them rather than possibly face them in
>the future. Not many runners are in those leagues, IMHO.

<looks furtively around the list>

Yep, you're right Gurth. These types are very few and far between <g>
Which means the corporations are going to be taking "above average"
people into their fold to "get stuff"... Hmm, maybe that's why so many
things go wrong - they're _not_ using the professionals. :)

>> something. The players rarely get that chance, when they do, it's
>> detrimental, normally to their "shadowy" nature. No easy way out
>> really.
>
>In essence we've got a vicious circle here --

I thnk the Americans might describe it as a "Catch 22"

>we can't have big runs
>because that'll be a lot of work for the GM, but we can't have minor runs
>either because they're no fun after a while... Having a little of both is
>most likely the best solution.

Yes... Provided of course, it doesn;t alter the game world beyond
saving... :) As - I know - has happened in a couple of people's games.

>> If it's OK with you Gurth, I will heroically attempt not to comment. :)
>
>Seeing how you succeeded, perhaps someone should recommend you for a
>medal ;)

Thankyou. You will never know how difficult it was. I kept reminding
myself that

"Gurth gets bored with _long_ mails, Gurth gets bored with _long_
mails."

It worked. By the time I'd realised I hadn't answered it, I'd finished
and posted. It was admirable, the restraint I managed to enforce on my
overactive fingers. :)

>> Funny, how come you can say that in 8 words, yet it takes me a whole
>> page? <grin>
>
>Because you type too much on principle? ;)

Hmmm. I'll have to think about that comment and get back to you. <g>

>> Ahhh... A chocolate bar with peanuts, well that pins it down to 30,000.
>> OK. I'll work on it. ;) (damn, time to dig out the tranaslator again)
>
>Oh yeah, that's right, you had a Dutch <-> English translator proggy...
>What did it make of that slogan?

You don't want to know - it was not polite. :)

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 21
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:31:09 +0000
In article <NHlKqCBVWhe0EwIM@********.demon.co.uk>, "Paul J. Adam"
<shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> waffled & burbled about Quality
<snip>
>Not so much in the second. He was a trained man, in a world that were
>mostly amateurs who were learning by Darwin. The third, yeah, he was
>edging towards superhero status by then.

He was a police officer - interceptor patrol, a "driver" Two made him
into some sort of combat specialist as well as a driver. Ok, some
survival techniques are going to be learned, definately... but, he was a
little "too much" if you understand my meaning.

>The first Mad Max film, though, is how I see tracts of North America
>being in the 2050s: safer in cities, but small towns are at risk from
>larger gangs, and only the brave or the stupid travel the highways
>alone.

Poland, USSR, Africa, Middle East, Australia, and a dozen other places.
HEy, if you can't get into the cities, you've got to survive - right?

>>Mine are walking a middle ground at the moment, though I suppose
>>bludgeoning one poodle to death and throttling another may be construed
>>as skipping over the edge momentarily <grin>
>
>My character just killed someone: the first time he killed another human
>being. He's still not sure how he feels about that. Pete doubtless has
>plans with which to amuse the player and torment the character :)

Now, Paul. As if I'd be that mean to you. :) <smirk>

>>I don't think my players would accept anything that didn't at least
>>cover their expenses, if only for the simple reason that they don't have
>>an awful lot of money for any length of time, and need more.
>
>Damn right. We're being asked to do something dangerous and/or illegal,
>we want to be paid for it. It's safe and legal? Then why are you hiring
>_us_?

Because you're stupid enough to do it? <grin> Well, the other side of
the coin is "If' it's too much for you to cope with, we'll get someone
else." (A few days later certain personages are throwing around money
and talking about the easiest job in a while...) Standard GM "look what
you didn't get ya schmucks..." technique as advised by FASA modules...
<g>

>>working on one such scenario at the moment, but, I'm more inclined to
>>bring one of the poodles back as a revenant and haunt the players with a
>>yapping little spook for a while. :)
>
>Oh, no, not the ghost of Frou-Frou pursuing us for all eternity...

Not eternity, just "innopportune moments" :) You guys aren't going to
live _that_ long. :)

>>"can't" happen. Unaffective runs get boring after a while. All the
>>heroes in the movies and the books make a difference, they achieve
>>something. The players rarely get that chance, when they do, it's
>>detrimental, normally to their "shadowy" nature. No easy way out
>>really.
>
>Define "unaffective".

Deliver this, deliver that. Go here, go there... nothing happens,
nothing is achieved, nothing gets done. Take so and so to <somewhere>,
endless courier and escort jobs that have little or no effect or
influence, and are ultimately - boring.

Defined sufficiently, or would you like an essay? :)

>If the NPCs have been built up right, saving the
>local Stuffer Shack from the attentions of a streetgang can be downright
>satisfying:

That's what the police are for. Extortion, disturbing the peace,
threatening behaviour, behaving with intent to use violence, abusive
language in a public place, abusive behaviour in a public place,
threatening behaviour, possession of illegal weapons (knives, razors,
whatever), vagrancy and a pile of others. :)

>you've made several people's lives better,

temporarily - you won't be there _all_ the time... and when you're gone.

>reduced the
>influence of the gang,

and increased the influence/turf/strength of another, rival gang.

>made some enemies, maybe started a street war

Shadowrunners do not teach street gangs "lessons" Gangs kill/sort
gangs... Law of the Streets, page 14, Chapter 3

>(that if you leave will be fought against the people you helped)...

And you will leave, jobs and money call... Even Charles Bronson leaves.
:)

>"Satisfying" and "world-shaking" don't have to be the same thing
(yes,
>Pete, I know I've told you about some of our megaplots, but not
>everything is _that_ large-scale).

Yes it is, or you would have told me about the little stuff as well.
<raging battles in the Yemen, stealing Panzers in Germany, sinking
battleships in a single breath, killing dragons...> <g>

Nah, they're all little ones. :) <grin>


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 22
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:24:55 -0600
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Avenger wrote:

> In article <199711241943.UAA13673@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
> <gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Quality
> >Hey, kevlar headbands are well and truly possible.
> But ultimately pointless. The only advantage is that the coroner
> doesn't have to dig the bullet out of your brain with forseps, he just
> pulls both ends of the headband ... <g> Similar to the early use of
> silk in removing arrows.

But the spiff factor is very high (makes an illusion to last springs
dikoting car thread:))

> >CP2020, IMHO, has
> >lots of stuff that's partially to totally useless but is fun to have.
> Bar in a briefcase, shower in a can? <g>

but but but thats just the sort of stuff any good dwarf needs, the bar
that is:). I had a battlerager in **&* that used a personal portable hole
mounted inside a hatch in his armor as a personal wet bar. ya know sit
around the fire, open up the hatch on the breast plate and pull out the
spigot and fill up your mug with a nice Dwarven Ale:).

<snipsnip>
> >There's a lot of good stuff on the net
> >that many gamers will never be exposed to simply because nobody in their
> >group has internet access. (Of course there's also a lot of crap stuff on
> >the net, but that can be filtered out by a competent line developer.)
> Yes. Crap. This does seem to be the prevelant content unfortunately.:)

Remember Sturgeons Law. "Of corse 90% of SF is crud, 90% of everything is
crud" :):)

<snipsnip>
> <grin> Bit like credsticks - every transaction is recorded, every time
> you use it, it flags a little electronic signal that says "payment
> made". It took my players ages to figure out how they were being
> tracked last year - they're a damn sight more careful now. :)

EVIL. I like it. Now can a PC Decker use a similar method to track a
target if you know his SIN/Datastick Number.

<snipsnipsnip dang this is a long message:)>
> Hire them, we all know what these military types are like.
> If at first you don't succeed, bring in the artillery, armour and air
> force. <g>

I thought the quote was "If at first you don't succeed, Double the High
Explosives." Goes with "There is no problem that can not be solved wwith
the proper use of HE" :)

<snipsnip some more:)>

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 23
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:00:58 +0000
In article <gWoGZ7Athje0EwMx@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
<Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>In article <NHlKqCBVWhe0EwIM@********.demon.co.uk>, "Paul J. Adam"
><shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> waffled & burbled about Quality
>>Damn right. We're being asked to do something dangerous and/or illegal,
>>we want to be paid for it. It's safe and legal? Then why are you hiring
>>_us_?
>
>Because you're stupid enough to do it? <grin> Well, the other side of
>the coin is "If' it's too much for you to cope with, we'll get someone
>else." (A few days later certain personages are throwing around money
>and talking about the easiest job in a while...) Standard GM "look what
>you didn't get ya schmucks..." technique as advised by FASA modules...
><g>

Though there's the corollary. "What happened about that job?" we're
asked.

"We blew the guy off. Seemed way too easy. He hired Bill's gang
instead."

"But they just found Bill floating in the Thames. Well, most of him."

"Yep. See what I mean?" we reply...


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Further Reading

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