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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Quality Control
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:34:06 -0600
IMHO FASA should institute the following quality control measure.
Subscribe to ShadowRN and keep track of those of us who have a flair
for finding editing mistakes, making good house rules, crunching the
numbers, finding the loopholes, etc.

Whenever they get a new product set up a private mailing list and
send out private invitations. Everyone that shows up gets an advance
copy of the product. Sit back an watch the fur fly as their product
is picked to pieces.

Re-edit the product and put it on the shelves. Send the people who
contributed to the re-edit a signed copy of the product.

Something isn't working right when the first 3 people on this list to
buy RBB2 can find problems this quickly.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:58:47 -0800
At 12:34 10/16/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>IMHO FASA should institute the following quality control measure.
>Subscribe to ShadowRN and keep track of those of us who have a flair
>for finding editing mistakes, making good house rules, crunching the
>numbers, finding the loopholes, etc.

Unfortunately, FASA got rather badly burned when they had people
reviewing the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic, which later became
Awakenings. It went all over the Net before they were able to
publish it.

>Whenever they get a new product set up a private mailing list and
>send out private invitations. Everyone that shows up gets an advance
>copy of the product. Sit back an watch the fur fly as their product
>is picked to pieces.
>
>Re-edit the product and put it on the shelves. Send the people who
>contributed to the re-edit a signed copy of the product.

I would be happy to contribute to such an effort, but I think FASA is
going to be very cautious about such things for some time to come.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 3
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:59:36 -0400
David Buehrer[SMTP:dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG] wrote:
> IMHO FASA should institute the following quality control measure.
> Subscribe to ShadowRN and keep track of those of us who have a flair
> for finding editing mistakes, making good house rules, crunching the
> numbers, finding the loopholes, etc.
[snip]
> Re-edit the product and put it on the shelves. Send the people who
> contributed to the re-edit a signed copy of the product.

Sounds reasonable. They'd probably have to sign NDAs or something. :-)

> Something isn't working right when the first 3 people on this list to
> buy RBB2 can find problems this quickly.

I don't know which number I was (I got mine Tuesday), but I don't see
any real problems - I found a bunch of errors (a couple of switching
pronouns, a wrong page reference, a few blatantly incorrect examples),
but nothing inherent in the system. The only real criticism I have is
that in vehicular combat, there's an awful lot of tables...

There were a lot of improvements over RBB1, as well - the Wandjina now
costs a reasonable amount for example (214kY, as opposed to 75kY - it
was just gross at that price).

James Ojaste
Message no. 4
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:35:15 -0500
At 16-Okt-97 wrote David Buehrer:

[snip all]

I totally agree.
For me it seems that FASA lacks the proper base for playtesters.
Maybe we should talk to Steve about this before one contactes FASA
directly.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:44:10 -0600
Max Rible wrote:
|
| At 12:34 10/16/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
| >IMHO FASA should institute the following quality control measure.
| >Subscribe to ShadowRN and keep track of those of us who have a flair
| >for finding editing mistakes, making good house rules, crunching the
| >numbers, finding the loopholes, etc.
|
| Unfortunately, FASA got rather badly burned when they had people
| reviewing the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic, which later became
| Awakenings. It went all over the Net before they were able to
| publish it.

That's why I suggested an invite only policy for people they know and
love. And having them sign a contract couldn't hurt either.

"Hi Gurth. How would you like to playtest something for us?
Subscribe to FASAPlaytest.RBB2@********.fasa.com and reply to the
contract that will be automatically sent to you. Thanks, FASALegal."

They would be dealing with people that they know love and respect
Shadowrun. And with a legal contract to back things up... Also, in
dealing with us they can rest assured that the final product will be
transformed so much by us that if someone did put up the playtest
copy on the net it wouldn't hurt FASA at all :)

| I would be happy to contribute to such an effort, but I think FASA is
| going to be very cautious about such things for some time to come.

That's really a shame that a few rotten apples ruined it for the rest
of us.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 6
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:30:56 -0500
On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:35:15 -0500 Barbie <barbie@**********.COM> writes:
>At 16-Okt-97 wrote David Buehrer:
>
>[snip all]
>
>I totally agree.
>For me it seems that FASA lacks the proper base for playtesters.
>Maybe we should talk to Steve about this before one contactes FASA
>directly.

Hmmm...

Definitely another request for SR3: allow listmembers to
playtest/read/etc upcoming materials before they get released so that
various errors can be corrected before the general release:)


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 7
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:37:23 -0500
At 16-Okt-97 wrote David Buehrer:

[snip all of which I agree to]

But for an other idea, It should be an improvement if the main
writer for a new book is on the list.
Remember the posts from Steve about SR3 and his ideas.
This alone would give the writer a feel for the players and masters wishes
and thoughts outside their small prison... ahhhh home I mean.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:11:48 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-16 14:33:40 EDT, dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> IMHO FASA should institute the following quality control measure.
> Subscribe to ShadowRN and keep track of those of us who have a flair
> for finding editing mistakes, making good house rules, crunching the
> numbers, finding the loopholes, etc.

Sounds sort of biased if you ask me ... ;)

> Whenever they get a new product set up a private mailing list and
> send out private invitations. Everyone that shows up gets an advance
> copy of the product. Sit back an watch the fur fly as their product
> is picked to pieces.

I have designed material for AD&D years ago. Trust me on one thing, by the
time such a group is done, it will likely look nothing at all like what was
intended. Yes, I know AD&D had multiple editor syndrome to the Nth, but I'm
sure it could happen elsewhere. It hurts in a way actually, I am not sure
that Mr. Szeto would have appreciated that session.

> Re-edit the product and put it on the shelves. Send the people who
> contributed to the re-edit a signed copy of the product.

Yeppers, definitely biased (grin)

> Something isn't working right when the first 3 people on this list to
> buy RBB2 can find problems this quickly.
> -David

I haven't found many problems, just some fairly impressive snag areas.
Overall, I would say the book is a -MUST- buy, at least if you game more
than 4-5 hours a week. If you are using Winternight, it goes beyond a must
to a -HAVE- IMHO. All of this is from the GM's opinion of course. As a
player, I would be worried what would be designable using the new
construction rules (multiple power plant options???)

-Keith
Message no. 9
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:21:47 -0400
David Buehrer once dared to write,

<snip most of suggestion>
>Re-edit the product and put it on the shelves. Send the people who
>contributed to the re-edit a signed copy of the product.

I would be happy just to get the bugs worked out. I ask for nothing
but the opportunity to find them. I want to buy a good product.
Thank you Steve for giving us a glimpse at possible new magic rules.

>Something isn't working right when the first 3 people on this list to
>buy RBB2 can find problems this quickly.

Yep.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:49:05 +0100
David Buehrer said on 15:44/16 Oct 97...

> They would be dealing with people that they know love and respect
> Shadowrun.

Do you think that's a reason to let any one of us on that list? ;)

> And with a legal contract to back things up...

Note that the definition of a legal contract or "legally-binding" can
vary... The "no advertisements" disclaimer from the ShadowRN FAQ is a good
example -- where I am, in no way would that be considered legally binding,
to the best of my knowledge. If a game company were to do this sort of
thing, IMHO their best option would be to send out paper contracts to
every subscriber.

> That's really a shame that a few rotten apples ruined it for the rest
> of us.

Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to contain such things, once
they've been let out. (I'm guilty of owning a copy of the NAGM as well, so
I'm not going to point any fingers, even if I did remember where I got it
from.) You see, where it went wrong with the NAGM is that someone
mentioned on the list that he or she had a playtest copy. Once that info
was out, everybody else wanted one as well. This was somewhere in January
or February 1995 IIRC.

Any sort of playtesting mailing list would be based on trusting that the
people on it won't give copies to others, because there's not all that
much that can be done against offenders, IMO. For one thing, they could be
banned from such a list (possibly forever), and legal action may be an
option if a contract has been signed, but somehow I think it's a bit of a
difficult process to sue someone who's not in the same country as you are.
Sure, it can be done, but it'll be a very big hassle I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Turn into nothing less than nothing new.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:06:10 -0600
Gurth wrote:
|
| David Buehrer said on 15:44/16 Oct 97...
|
| > That's really a shame that a few rotten apples ruined it for the rest
| > of us.
|
| Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to contain such things, once
| they've been let out. (I'm guilty of owning a copy of the NAGM as well, so
| I'm not going to point any fingers, even if I did remember where I got it
| from.) You see, where it went wrong with the NAGM is that someone
| mentioned on the list that he or she had a playtest copy. Once that info
| was out, everybody else wanted one as well. This was somewhere in January
| or February 1995 IIRC.
|
| Any sort of playtesting mailing list would be based on trusting that the
| people on it won't give copies to others, because there's not all that
| much that can be done against offenders, IMO. For one thing, they could be
| banned from such a list (possibly forever), and legal action may be an
| option if a contract has been signed, but somehow I think it's a bit of a
| difficult process to sue someone who's not in the same country as you are.
| Sure, it can be done, but it'll be a very big hassle I think.

Urk. <slump> I had no idea the NAGM experience was that bad.

At best FASA could work with Mark and Fro to permanently ban anyone started
handing out copies. But you're right, much beyond that probably wouldn't
be worth it. <sigh> Even if FASA confined it to a small group, say 5
people, they're still taking a risk. But, in defense of my idea (ploy? :)
the benefits might well outweigh the risks. A 10% improvement in the
product would be worth it to me.




-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 12
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:32:05 PDT
If its any help, my best friend has in interview for an editor's positon
at FASA next Wednesday... His eyes are almost as sharp as mine, and his
writting somewhat better. Went with him to drop off his resume, got the
full tour from Mike... They don't WANT mistakes, they are just really
hard to avoid, espicially in large manuscripts. And no, I don't think
they do a lot of playtesting, at least not out of the office.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psycotic - Einstien

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:11:35 EDT
On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:49:05 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

>Note that the definition of a legal contract or "legally-binding" can
>vary... The "no advertisements" disclaimer from the ShadowRN FAQ is a
good
>example -- where I am, in no way would that be considered legally
binding,
>to the best of my knowledge. If a game company were to do this sort of
>thing, IMHO their best option would be to send out paper contracts to
>every subscriber.

I've seen several online requests for playtesters that followed that
format. E-mail your request/"Why I want to Playtest _______" form and
wait for your contract to arrive via snail-mail, sign, re-mail, then
recieve what ever it was you are to playtest.

As for what they can do if you break the contract, while legal action may
not be too easy, I think being black-balled from any other playtest
opportunities would be pretty effective.

~Tim
Message no. 14
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:59:48 -0400
Tim Cooper once dared to write,

>I've seen several online requests for playtesters that followed that
>format. E-mail your request/"Why I want to Playtest _______" form and
>wait for your contract to arrive via snail-mail, sign, re-mail, then
>recieve what ever it was you are to playtest.
>
>As for what they can do if you break the contract, while legal action may
>not be too easy, I think being black-balled from any other playtest
>opportunities would be pretty effective.

How does Steve Jackson handle theirs. To the best of my
understanding you have to subscribe to their Illuminati Online before you
are eligible but then most of their upcoming books are there to be
perused. I haven't heard of too many problems with their stuff leaking
out. Then again, maybe I just missed the wrong circles for that.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 15
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:57:47 +0000
On 17 Oct 97, Tim Cooper disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> I've seen several online requests for playtesters that followed that
> format. E-mail your request/"Why I want to Playtest _______" form
> and wait for your contract to arrive via snail-mail, sign, re-mail,
> then recieve what ever it was you are to playtest.
>
> As for what they can do if you break the contract, while legal
> action may not be too easy, I think being black-balled from any
> other playtest opportunities would be pretty effective.

Yep. And you can put them on an official "Black List". Then send that
list here... <grin>


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
NOTHING BEATS THE GREAT SMELL OF BRUT - then why not use nothing?
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:48:47 +0100
David Buehrer said on 8:06/17 Oct 97...

> Urk. <slump> I had no idea the NAGM experience was that bad.

I think it partly had to do with the excitement of having a copy of a new
book that wasn't out yet.

> At best FASA could work with Mark and Fro to permanently ban anyone
> started handing out copies. But you're right, much beyond that probably
> wouldn't be worth it. <sigh> Even if FASA confined it to a small
> group, say 5 people, they're still taking a risk. But, in defense of my
> idea (ploy? :) the benefits might well outweigh the risks. A 10%
> improvement in the product would be worth it to me.

I'm pretty sure I speak for most of the list when I say this would be a
very nice thing to be part of, if it would ever be started up. OTOH, there
are plenty of mentions of playtesters in several FASA books (strangely,
though, there aren't any in Rigger 2 (which I got in the mail today)) so
FASA does have playtesters. Hell, from those there are several names I
recognize from way back when on this here mailing list, some even being
list.legendary.names from before I joined.

FASA probably finds it safer to have a bunch of people more or less on
call rather than have a mailing list (even though the subscribers can
easily be limited to approved ones only) where there is a much bigger
chance of leaking out new books... :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Turn into nothing less than nothing new.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:48:48 +0100
Tim Cooper said on 17:11/17 Oct 97...

> I've seen several online requests for playtesters that followed that
> format. E-mail your request/"Why I want to Playtest _______" form and
> wait for your contract to arrive via snail-mail, sign, re-mail, then
> recieve what ever it was you are to playtest.

That would probably be the best (safest) way to do things, yes.

> As for what they can do if you break the contract, while legal action may
> not be too easy, I think being black-balled from any other playtest
> opportunities would be pretty effective.

There is one small snag here: they have to find out who leaked the
playtest copy to the rest of the world. Say I'm a playtester and receive a
copy of a new book, which I then mail to some other people. As long as the
first couple of people down the line can be trusted to keep their mouths
shut, it won't be very easy to trace back to me... That is a problem for
the company who gave me the playtest copy, because they have a number of
people who might have done it, but they know who. What are they going to
do? Ban them all?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Turn into nothing less than nothing new.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:58:57 -0600
Gurth wrote:
|
| I'm pretty sure I speak for most of the list when I say this would be a
| very nice thing to be part of, if it would ever be started up. OTOH, there
| are plenty of mentions of playtesters in several FASA books (strangely,
| though, there aren't any in Rigger 2 (which I got in the mail today)) so
| FASA does have playtesters. Hell, from those there are several names I
| recognize from way back when on this here mailing list, some even being
| list.legendary.names from before I joined.

Does anyone know how what you have to do to become a playtester for
FASA (I'm serious about this). I'll wait for feedback from the list
before I contact FASA.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 19
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:04:41 -0600
At 09:58 10/18/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Does anyone know how what you have to do to become a playtester for
>FASA (I'm serious about this). I'll wait for feedback from the list
>before I contact FASA.

From what I understand, FASA has very little time for sending out books to
playtest, since they're on such a tight schedule. I imagine bigger
projects, aka SR3 and probably the new magic book will have more time for
playtesters, in which case, make yourself known to FASA and hope that they
take a liking to you :)

-Adam


-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/jurybench
Message no. 20
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:42:23 -0700
---Adam J wrote:
>
> At 09:58 10/18/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >Does anyone know how what you have to do to become a playtester for
> >FASA (I'm serious about this). I'll wait for feedback from the list
> >before I contact FASA.
>
> From what I understand, FASA has very little time for sending out
books to
> playtest, since they're on such a tight schedule. I imagine bigger
> projects, aka SR3 and probably the new magic book will have more
time for
> playtesters, in which case, make yourself known to FASA and hope
that they
> take a liking to you :)

This is true. Due to some schmoozing and a good dose of
right-place-right-time while eating lunch with Mike Mulvihill and
Steve Kenson at Gen Con '97 Bull, Dvixen and myself got our groups in
on playtesting some optional rules and possible game mechanics.

I can't go into any real details as we're bound by disclosure
agreements, but I just wanted to mention that Mike and crew look into
playtesting to certain degrees.

As for actual playtesting of product before release, Bull and I asked
Mike on this, that sort of thing is handled in-house.

-== Loki ==-
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 10/11/97

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Message no. 21
From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:20:49 +0100
At 13:32 17/10/97 PDT, you wrote:
>If its any help, my best friend has in interview for an editor's positon
>at FASA next Wednesday... His eyes are almost as sharp as mine, and his
>writting somewhat better. Went with him to drop off his resume, got the
>full tour from Mike... They don't WANT mistakes, they are just really
>hard to avoid, espicially in large manuscripts. And no, I don't think
>they do a lot of playtesting, at least not out of the office.
>
it is probably the origin of the problem: playtesting in a 'sealed'
environnement, so perhaps not enough idea confrontations

ChYlD
mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr
Message no. 22
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:30:44 GMT
> David Buehrer said on 8:06/17 Oct 97...
>
> > Urk. <slump> I had no idea the NAGM experience was that bad.
>
> I think it partly had to do with the excitement of having a copy of a new
> book that wasn't out yet.
>

It may well have been the NAGM yes, and i cannot blame FASA for
tightening things up after that.
AFAIK it was posted to FASA's AOL playtest area which i assume you
needed FASA's permission to access for coments back To Steve. However
it ended up in circulation, i saw two copies on different web pages
over time, and links to them [no i don't have a clue what the URL's
were]. It seemed at times like half the mailing list had copies based
on reading between the lines while i believe only a handfull had
'offical' copies of the document.

In this particular case the final product as published contains
considerably more material in some places than the test version.
There are a number of places though where the version of stuff FASA
cleared is decidely inferior to Steves versions in the playtest
document. (these having been discussed here at one time or another,
and ammounting to no more than the normal level of commenting on
products).

How much harm this all did FASA i haven't got a clue as even if you
found a read the playtest version the actual book is a far superior
reference anyway (being a properly packaged book and containing
various tables and indexes). However one can see FASA being less than
keen on a repeat of this experience.
Message no. 23
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:34:56 -0600
Loki wrote:
|
| > At 09:58 10/18/97 -0600, you wrote:
| > >Does anyone know how what you have to do to become a playtester for
| > >FASA (I'm serious about this). I'll wait for feedback from the list
| > >before I contact FASA.
|
[snip]
|
| As for actual playtesting of product before release, Bull and I asked
| Mike on this, that sort of thing is handled in-house.

Hm.. do I want to move to Chicago? Nah. :)

Well, Loki and Fro, thanks anyway.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 24
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:07:04 -0400
Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
> Tim Cooper said on 17:11/17 Oct 97...
> > As for what they can do if you break the contract, while legal action may
> > not be too easy, I think being black-balled from any other playtest
> > opportunities would be pretty effective.
>
> There is one small snag here: they have to find out who leaked the
> playtest copy to the rest of the world. Say I'm a playtester and receive a
> copy of a new book, which I then mail to some other people. As long as the
> first couple of people down the line can be trusted to keep their mouths
> shut, it won't be very easy to trace back to me... That is a problem for
> the company who gave me the playtest copy, because they have a number of
> people who might have done it, but they know who. What are they going to
> do? Ban them all?

That's easy - just make each copy different. Generate a few
random typos in each copy you send out, and keep a list. This
serves a couple of purposes - you can see how effective your
playtesters are at catching this sort of error, and if you ever
find a leaked copy you just have to look up the appropriate
person and point a finger or two.

You just have to be careful not to make it an important mistake,
or somebody's bound to comment on it and somebody else will say
"Hey! That's not what it says in *my* copy!"...

James Ojaste
Message no. 25
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:49:46 -0600
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
|
| Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
| >
| > There is one small snag here: they have to find out who leaked the
| > playtest copy to the rest of the world. Say I'm a playtester and receive a
| > copy of a new book, which I then mail to some other people. As long as the
| > first couple of people down the line can be trusted to keep their mouths
| > shut, it won't be very easy to trace back to me... That is a problem for
| > the company who gave me the playtest copy, because they have a number of
| > people who might have done it, but they know who. What are they going to
| > do? Ban them all?
|
| That's easy - just make each copy different. Generate a few
| random typos in each copy you send out, and keep a list. This
| serves a couple of purposes - you can see how effective your
| playtesters are at catching this sort of error, and if you ever
| find a leaked copy you just have to look up the appropriate
| person and point a finger or two.

You don't even need to use typos. Place a sentance in the text with
a color in it, "The Blue Diamond Cafe" for example. In each copy use
a different color, "The Red Diamond Cafe", "The Black Diamond Cafe",
etc. As long as the marked text is flavor text (doesn't apply to the
rules) it shouldn't come up during playtesting.

You could do this a number of ways; colors, items, places, names.
And you could mark each copy in a number of places so that any
unscrupulous person has to find them all (not likely).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 26
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:03:26 -0800
At 13:48 10/18/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>There is one small snag here: they have to find out who leaked the
>playtest copy to the rest of the world.
> What are they going to
>do? Ban them all?

Yes. Now you see why they don't go outside for playtesters.

As for putting in flavor text to determine who leaked it, that's certainly
possible, but it's more effort for the folks over at FASA. They're already
running on a less-than-glorious budget, and now someone wants them to come
up with trivial modifications to the playtest copy to ship out individually,
rather than one bulk xerox? Why bother going outside at all?

(Not that I *like* this notion, but I can sympathize.)

I think Steve Kenson has been doing things the right way: bring up a
topic that they want to address for a book, watch the flamewar come up,
see what's left when the dust settles. Someone who's been keeping careful
track of his posts could put together a preview of the SR3 magic rules on
a web page, but it's not going to be that close to what comes out in SR3.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 27
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:33:47 -0600
Max Rible wrote:
|
| I think Steve Kenson has been doing things the right way: bring up a
| topic that they want to address for a book, watch the flamewar come up,
| see what's left when the dust settles.

Ditto that. And I, as a player, really appreciate the effort Steve
made bounce his ideas off of us. I'm really looking forward to
seeing what he does with SR Magic in the future.

Now if other SR authors would do the same... Hey Steve, tell the
other contributors to SR to join ShadowRN :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 28
From: Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:36:23 -0400
David Buehrer wrote:

> [snip]
> |
> | As for actual playtesting of product before release, Bull and I asked
> | Mike on this, that sort of thing is handled in-house.
>
> Hm.. do I want to move to Chicago? Nah. :)
>
> Well, Loki and Fro, thanks anyway.

I assume if you hand out sound advice..... buy the books early, so you
can analyse and comment on them... Come up with balanced ideas, honest
critism and interpret things according to what FASA's agenda is, then
your set. Then somehow your name will hit FASA's list. Oh and do like
our guru.... post a comment on everything. :) ( this is not sarcasm
only observation)

Woah, surprising insight from the library of:
Platinum

Are you watching Mike? is big brother watching???
Message no. 29
From: Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:36:18 -0400
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
>
> Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
> > Tim Cooper said on 17:11/17 Oct 97...
> > > As for what they can do if you break the contract, while legal action may
> > > not be too easy, I think being black-balled from any other playtest
> > > opportunities would be pretty effective.
> >
> > There is one small snag here: they have to find out who leaked the
> > playtest copy to the rest of the world. Say I'm a playtester and receive a
> > copy of a new book, which I then mail to some other people. As long as the
> > first couple of people down the line can be trusted to keep their mouths
> > shut, it won't be very easy to trace back to me... That is a problem for
> > the company who gave me the playtest copy, because they have a number of
> > people who might have done it, but they know who. What are they going to
> > do? Ban them all?
>
> That's easy - just make each copy different. Generate a few
> random typos in each copy you send out, and keep a list. This
> serves a couple of purposes - you can see how effective your
> playtesters are at catching this sort of error, and if you ever
> find a leaked copy you just have to look up the appropriate
> person and point a finger or two.

what about hmmm spell and grammar check? they would have to have the
embeddedcode words and such. that way that person would have no idea
which are key.

Editing notes from the library of:
Platinum
Message no. 30
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:44:11 -0400
Who cares about who leaked what. The real and only question that
should be asked first is how many people that would have bought
Awakenings didn't because they picked up the net prototype. Anybody on
the list? Friends of yours? Somebody you heard of on the other side of
town? The music industry has hated cassettes, and then DATs and of course
CDRs but their business has not collapsed by their existence and some
would argue that they have even been helped by them (Not an argument I
really have an opinion on though).
So, was FASA really hurt by this or are they just annoyed that their
play testers were unfaithful?

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 31
From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:47:09 +0100
>
>That's easy - just make each copy different. Generate a few
>random typos in each copy you send out, and keep a list. This
>serves a couple of purposes - you can see how effective your
>playtesters are at catching this sort of error, and if you ever
>find a leaked copy you just have to look up the appropriate
>person and point a finger or two.
>
>You just have to be careful not to make it an important mistake,
>or somebody's bound to comment on it and somebody else will say
>"Hey! That's not what it says in *my* copy!"...
>
but wouldn't the goal of such a control to have players sharing and
comparing their ideas on a given product? and for that, they need the same
basis..

ChYlD
mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:43:29 +0100
Rick St Jean said on 16:36/20 Oct 97...

> I assume if you hand out sound advice..... buy the books early, so you
> can analyse and comment on them... Come up with balanced ideas, honest
> critism and interpret things according to what FASA's agenda is, then
> your set. Then somehow your name will hit FASA's list. Oh and do like
> our guru.... post a comment on everything. :) ( this is not sarcasm
> only observation)

It does somewhat imply I have connections at FASA; however, the closest
thing I've gotten to that is when I submitted an article to Shadowland
magazine and Kevin Knight wrote back with some comments on the article,
plus "Mike says 'hi'."

If you ask me, you have to take the initiative if you somehow want to et
involved in what game companies are doing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside you head.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 33
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:12:25 -0400
David Mezerette[SMTP:mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR] wrote:
> >
> >That's easy - just make each copy different. Generate a few
> >random typos in each copy you send out, and keep a list. This
> >serves a couple of purposes - you can see how effective your
> >playtesters are at catching this sort of error, and if you ever
> >find a leaked copy you just have to look up the appropriate
> >person and point a finger or two.
> >
> but wouldn't the goal of such a control to have players sharing and
> comparing their ideas on a given product? and for that, they need the same
> basis..

The same basis, sure - but if you change something totally irrelevant to
the gameplay, it's pretty unlikely anybody will
notice.

The playtesters are going to be playtesting the rules. So
don't change the rules (or any memorable flavour text).

James Ojaste
Message no. 34
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:01:50 -0500
Does anyone else remember the playtest version
of SR 2nd edition that FASA put up on GEnie
back in, um, whenever? They could do
something like that again. Even if 200 people
are walking around with laser printed rough
drafts (w/ out art, binding, indexes, etc) for free,
how bad would that really hurt sales? Anyone
"hard core" enough to download it and print it out
was certainly planning on buying a copy the
instant it became available anyway...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 35
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:29:15 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-19 23:47:34 EDT, daddyjim@**********.COM writes:

>
> As for actual playtesting of product before release, Bull and I asked
> Mike on this, that sort of thing is handled in-house.
>
> -== Loki ==-
>
And sadly all, this 'in-house' is not always as stable as people would like
it to appear.

-K
Message no. 36
From: Les Ward <lward@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:43:53 -0400
>Does anyone else remember the playtest version
>of SR 2nd edition that FASA put up on GEnie
>back in, um, whenever?

1991 I think. I remember. I'm not sure if we got it from GEnie or FASA
directly, but we all carried around 300 pages of xeroxed shit. The lesson:
all of us bought the SR2 rules when they came out. All of us.

Wordman
Message no. 37
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:04:45 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-20 19:52:48 EDT, mc23@**********.COM writes:

> So, was FASA really hurt by this or are they just annoyed that their
> play testers were unfaithful?
>
Truthfully MC23? With the gaming industry being so low-action overall, it
might have effected their sales -some-. But I agree not very likely.

Honestly, you'r latter suggestion should be considered. Do you know the term
"Click?"
-K
Message no. 38
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:03:03 EDT
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:49:46 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>You don't even need to use typos. Place a sentance in the text with
>a color in it, "The Blue Diamond Cafe" for example. In each copy use
>a different color, "The Red Diamond Cafe", "The Black Diamond
Cafe",
>etc. As long as the marked text is flavor text (doesn't apply to the
>rules) it shouldn't come up during playtesting.
>
>You could do this a number of ways; colors, items, places, names.
>And you could mark each copy in a number of places so that any
>unscrupulous person has to find them all (not likely).

Heh heh... I was thinking the exact same things about how to "mark" each
playtest copy (hell, you could even just dump some version number into a
random shadow-talk comment date-stamp and nobody would know the
difference). Either way, they wouldn't need to be *that* well hidden,
because in order to find it, you'd need two people willing to break the
contract to compare the different copies.

~Tim
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quality Control
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:50:35 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 16:01/21 Oct 97...

> Anyone "hard core" enough to download it and print it out was certainly
> planning on buying a copy the instant it became available anyway...

Same thoughts here... I've got the NAGM sitting between my other SR books,
but there's also a copy of Awakenings there, which I got as soon as I
heard it was out.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside you head.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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