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Message no. 1
From: bsingley@*****.com (Ben Singley)
Subject: Query: Damaging Manipulations an Spell Defense
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:29:18 -0400
Hello everyone.

It is my understanding that spell defense an shielding affect damaging
manipulation spell energy in the same manner in which they affect any other
type of incoming spell.

A friend, fellow gamer, and fellow hermetic mage player (he's init grade 6,
I'm init grade 3, but I've earned twice as much karma. haha) has argued
that spell defense and shielding may not be used to defend against damaging
manipulations.

He argues that the actual damage taken is from the elemental affect, which
comes into being as a result of the spell energy and that the spell energy
is entirely extinguished the process of creating the elemental affect.
Therefore, as one is resisting actual fire or acid or whatever and not
spell energy in and of itself, spell defense/shielding is useless. He
notes also that armor reduces the power level of the attack and combat pool
dice may be used to resist the damage. In sum, the rules state that one
resists in the same manner as a ranged combat attack.

My character has among his spells flamethrower and flamebomb at relatively
high force ratings (expendible fetishes get the force up to 9). Sounds
fine on the one hand. But I argue that since half the spell energy comes
in on the physical plane and half comes in on the astral (see either SRII
sourcebook or Grimoire somewhere), one may, in fact, use spell
defense/shielding dice normally.


Comments?


Ben-who-hails-from-the-metaplane-of-Virginia
Message no. 2
From: "Spike" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Query: Damaging Manipulations an Spell Defense
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:35:05 +0100 (BST)
|My character has among his spells flamethrower and flamebomb at relatively
|high force ratings (expendible fetishes get the force up to 9). Sounds
|fine on the one hand. But I argue that since half the spell energy comes
|in on the physical plane and half comes in on the astral (see either SRII
|sourcebook or Grimoire somewhere), one may, in fact, use spell
|defense/shielding dice normally.
|
|
|Comments?

I, personally, would say, YES! you can use shielding or magic pool.
I reckon you might have opened another can of worms though...
(Just hope it doen't last as long as the quickening or essense arguments
a while ago....)

|
|Ben-who-hails-from-the-metaplane-of-Virginia
|
|
|


--
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|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
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|Comp Sci & something | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
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Message no. 3
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Query: Damaging Manipulations an Spell Defense
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 06:17:21 -0500 (CDT)
Well, the only comment I have is that the substance only exists by virtue
of magic. When the spell is over, I believe that the acid or what-not
goes away. "Here in an instant, gone in a flash", as the Pumpkin King
would say... so if the substance only exists by virtue of magic, it
should be controlable by virtue of magic pools and such...


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 4
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Query: Damaging Manipulations an Spell Defense
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:03:56 -0400 (EDT)
At 07:29 PM 6/7/96 -0400, you wrote:

>A friend, fellow gamer, and fellow hermetic mage player has argued
>that spell defense and shielding may not be used to defend against damaging
>manipulations.
>
>But I argue that since half the spell energy comes in on the physical plane
>and half comes in on the astral (see either SRII sourcebook or Grimoire
>somewhere), one may, in fact, use spell defense/shielding dice normally.
>
>Comments?

You are correct.

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 5
From: Night Prowler <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Query: Damaging Manipulations an Spell Defense
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:18:31 +0200
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:18:27 +0200 (MET DST)

> I, personally, would say, YES! you can use shielding or magic pool.

Hmmm... I don't really know. You don't have this LOS-restriction for
manipulation area effect spells, so this means you don't ground trough
the aura, you create something that's REAL and does harm. That is why
you don't take any damage from EE:acid spells if you wear a firefighters
suit. IF it'd go through the aura the suit would be pretty useless -
but it is REAL and works from the outside, so the suit helps.
The other thing is that impact armor (which is used for resisting
dam. manipulations) doesn't have an effect on aura-grounding stuff,
but it DOES help for damaging manipulations which means they have to
be real and not aura-grounding.

For single-target only spells it is a bit harder to argue this
way. But IF it were different firefighters suits would help against
area-effect EE:acid spells but not single-target EE:acid spells,
which sounds bad in my eyes, so I tend to say:
Shielding doesn't help for damaging manipulations.

> I reckon you might have opened another can of worms though...
> (Just hope it doen't last as long as the quickening or essense arguments
> a while ago....)

Argh. Then we should get ourselves some more strong nerves to stand
this through. ;-)

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 6
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Query: Damaging Manipulations an Spell Defense
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:41:38 GMT
Ben Singley writes

> Hello everyone.
>
> It is my understanding that spell defense an shielding affect damaging
> manipulation spell energy in the same manner in which they affect any other
> type of incoming spell.
>
They do work, details below.

> He argues that the actual damage taken is from the elemental affect, which
> comes into being as a result of the spell energy and that the spell energy
> is entirely extinguished the process of creating the elemental affect.
Not true, the matter produced by the spell is still magical in
nature, hence why it disapears as soon as the spell ends. This is why
elemental effect acid does not leave pools of bubbling acid behind.
Note some of the elemental effects listed in Awakenings contradict the
base rules (per GR2) on this point! claiming things happen which
elemental effects cannot do as the matter does not last (eg sand
jamming guns)

> Therefore, as one is resisting actual fire or acid or whatever and not
> spell energy in and of itself, spell defense/shielding is useless. He
> notes also that armor reduces the power level of the attack and combat pool
> dice may be used to resist the damage. In sum, the rules state that one
> resists in the same manner as a ranged combat attack.
>
You are correct in saying you can use combat pool to dodge/resist
damaging manipulations, you may however elect to block the magical
part with spell defences instead. You are not however allowed to do
both, though you may dodge and someone else try to protect you with
magic (using his/her spell defence dice)

> My character has among his spells flamethrower and flamebomb at relatively
> high force ratings (expendible fetishes get the force up to 9). Sounds
> fine on the one hand. But I argue that since half the spell energy comes
> in on the physical plane and half comes in on the astral (see either SRII
> sourcebook or Grimoire somewhere), one may, in fact, use spell
> defense/shielding dice normally.
>
All the spell energy come from the astral, the spell travels to the
target in both planes at the same time, hence you cannot cast through
clear obstructions or to/from purely astral beings (no link to
physical)
Spell defence functions normally but note that sheildings stat rasing
ability does not help as the target number is a fixed 4 not an
attrubute. Shielding therefore works vs DM's the shielded attribute
will be body but the effect will be the same as spell defence, you
just get more dice.

>
> Comments?

ok that got a bit long, the rules are spread through SR2 and GR2,
read with care they are easy to miss.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Query: Damaging Manipulations an Spell Defense
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 11:45:49 EDT
I would tend to argue that damaging spells (both combat, and damaging
manipulations) are defendable against with sheilding. Both sheilding
methods (regular (Grimoire) and reflective (Awakenings)) refer to the
spell defense rule in SRII, pg 132. It says that when a protected
character(s) or object(s) is attacked by magic, they can gain extra dice
(allocated by the sheilding magician) for defending against the spell.
The example doesn't state what type of magic is used, the only example
that states a specific spell, is the Awakenings surcebook, which uses a
mana bolt. Think of sheilding as a dual-nature creature, it is present on
the physical and astral planes at the same time and place. Therefore, it
can protect against both astral damaging spells (those nifty combat
spells) and the physical damaging spells (damaging manipulations). Note,
when I say astral and physical spells, I mean the method of travel between
caster and target.

Pete


Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
Classic Sub-Zero Scorpion Reptile Ermac Classic Smoke Noob Saibot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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