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Message no. 1
From: William Pasqual Flint <claymoar@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Question
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 93 15:19:25 -0500
In my the gaming groups I play in(sometimes GM) we about use negative essence
for NPC's ONLY(I have my reasons).

The question is how much is a TOTALLY CYBERED CRITTER worst ALIVE and still in
one piece.(TOTALLY CYBERED MEANS A ESSENCE OF -6).

I said 10,000,000 Nuyen if the critter is alive and in one piece. Any
suggestions?

Claymore the Metaknight Champion
Message no. 2
From: Andrew Danforth <mmd@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Question...
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 17:54:48 -0400
Does anyone know where to get the Ultimate SR2 Equipment lists? I lost the
ftp site. Help would be appreciated.

Thanks

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Good, bad... I'm the guy with the gun." | _____
-- Ash, Army of Darkness | / |ndrew C. Danforth
"There's something wrong with the world | / /| | mmd@***.umd.edu
today, and I don't know what it is." | / ____ | drool@***.com
-- Aerosmith, Livin' on the Edge | /___/ |__|
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Message no. 3
From: Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject: Question
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 16:23:35 +0200
Now that i have some time for reading some of my mail and the rec.games.frp.cyber
newsgroup. I was again puzzled over a debate on astral initiative. Mages get 15
+ Astral reaction + 1d6.
Now SRII says astral reaction is TWICE intelligence. But when this was brought
up (ages ago) on this list, i seem to remember that someone said they corrected
this in GrimII, to : astral reaction = intelligence. Which would be more logical
Reaction = (int + quick)/2 = 2*int/2 = int.
The problem is that I just can't find this in the GrimoireII. Over half an hour
of reading resulted in a reference to SRII and that's it.
Can anyone tell me where he/she found this ? Is it another ruling by Dowd ?
<*shrug*>
Nightowl
P.S. I have to admit it was already late when i started reading.
P.P.S. I think it was Nightstalker who wrote it was just int. Not sure.
Message no. 4
From: Alexander Borghgraef <Alexander.Borghgraef@***.AC.BE>
Subject: question
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 16:36:55 --100
What are the rules for bioware?
Message no. 5
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 15:31:43 -0700
No Problem

On Mon, 25 Jul 1994, Koert Vynckier wrote:

> Now that i have some time for reading some of my mail and the rec.games.frp.cyber
> newsgroup. I was again puzzled over a debate on astral initiative. Mages get 15
> + Astral reaction + 1d6.
> Now SRII says astral reaction is TWICE intelligence. But when this was brought
> up (ages ago) on this list, i seem to remember that someone said they corrected
> this in GrimII, to : astral reaction = intelligence. Which would be more logical
> Reaction = (int + quick)/2 = 2*int/2 = int.
> The problem is that I just can't find this in the GrimoireII. Over half an hour
> of reading resulted in a reference to SRII and that's it.
> Can anyone tell me where he/she found this ? Is it another ruling by Dowd ?
> <*shrug*>
> Nightowl
> P.S. I have to admit it was already late when i started reading.
> P.P.S. I think it was Nightstalker who wrote it was just int. Not sure.
>
Look on page 86, 5th paragraph under the Bolded Humans on the Astral.

There is no mention of a correction to the comment in SRII in the Errata
so I think that the comment in the Grimoire might be wrong. I use it
anyway, but...

Ivy
Message no. 6
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 15:33:30 -0700
The rules for bioware

On Mon, 25 Jul 1994, Alexander Borghgraef wrote:

> What are the rules for bioware?
>
are found in the Shadowtech book, FASA number 7110, by Karl Wu.

They are copyrighted, so I won't quote them. The book is $15.00

Ivy
Message no. 7
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 00:58:52 -0500
> They are copyrighted, so I won't quote them. The book is $15.00

Copyrighted? I doubt it. Quoting the book verbatim would be illegal...
I doubt giving the basic concepts is.

Bioware is kindof like cyberware, except that you use Body instead of
essence. Body is your unaugmented Body rating...your Bod doesn't go down, but
it's a measure of how much your body can take. If you go above it, you get
problems. Nasty problems that GM's have fun with. Mages also lose magic
rating like it was removed from essence.

Simple.

(And I won't go into specifics. Get ShadowTech.)

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 8
From: Patrick F Omalley <omalleyp@*******.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Question
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 03:59:48 -0400
Greets,

I have a friend who is having a hell of a time getting subscribed to
this list and the Earthdawn list. Is there any way he can be remotely
subscribed? Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks for your help in advance.



Patrick O'Malley (son of the Clan of Mailey)
ai141@***.nmc.edu
omalleyp@*******.msu.edu
=========================================/==========================
GAT d--- h++ s:+ g-/+ p? !au> a- w+(+++) \ also look for:
v++ c+++>++++ ? P? L 3 E? !N K- W--- M-- / Vizsla, Devil, Pengo,
!V -po+ Y+>++ t++ 5 j R++>+++ G tv \ K.I.A., POM, Hey you.
b+(+++) D++ b--- e+>++ u** h>+ f+(*) n---/==========================
!y+
Message no. 9
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 22:22:50 -0400
> I have a friend who is having a hell of a time getting subscribed to
> this list and the Earthdawn list. Is there any way he can be remotely
> subscribed? Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks for your help in advance.
>
What is the address for the Earthdawn list? Any one know of a www or
gopher or ftp site for Earthdawn files?
Message no. 10
From: Chris Ryan <chrisr@****.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 13:57:54 --1000
> > I have a friend who is having a hell of a time getting subscribed to
> > this list and the Earthdawn list. Is there any way he can be remotely
> > subscribed? Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks for your help in advance.
> >
> What is the address for the Earthdawn list? Any one know of a www or
> gopher or ftp site for Earthdawn files?

I believe this is covered in the SHADOWRN FAQ (the ED list address), however if you read
my signature below, subscription details will be revealed.

There is an ftp site for ED files, which I think is mentioned when you subscribe
to the list. There's various stuff available via anonymous ftp at
ftp.iquest.com, in /pub/RPG/EarthDawn.

Chris

Chris Ryan | Earthdawn List: earthdawn@********.iquest.com
Earthdawn Listowner | To subscribe send a message (no subj reqd) to
Brisbane Qld Australia | majordomo@********.iquest.com with:
chrisr@****.qut.edu.au | subscribe earthdawn
Message no. 11
From: Patrick F Omalley <omalleyp@*******.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 15:26:38 -0400
> > this list and the Earthdawn list. Is there any way he can be remotely
> > subscribed? Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks for your help in advance.
> >
> What is the address for the Earthdawn list? Any one know of a www or
> gopher or ftp site for Earthdawn files?
>

Greets,

My friend says the Eathdawn list is down.




Patrick O'Malley (son of the Clan of Mailey)
ai141@***.nmc.edu
omalleyp@*******.msu.edu
=========================================/==========================
GAT d--- h++ s:+ g-/+ p? !au> a- w+(+++) \ also look for:
v++ c+++>++++ ? P? L 3 E? !N K- W--- M-- / Vizsla, Devil, Pengo,
!V -po+ Y+>++ t++ 5 j R++>+++ G tv \ K.I.A., POM, Hey you.
b+(+++) D++ b--- e+>++ u** h>+ f+(*) n---/==========================
!y+
Message no. 12
From: Pavel Krumnikl <krumnikl@******.MATH.MUNI.CZ>
Subject: question
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 11:09:36 +0100
Hello all!
I've one question for you. Does anybody know anything about listserver
about game Middle Earth Role Playing? Please send me its adress.
krumnikl@****.muni.cz
Thanks very much. FORMENGIL
Message no. 13
From: Susan Sherman <SSHERMAN@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Question
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 22:37:18 -0500
Can anyone tell me why Cerebus isn't accessible by the web? I can
get it no problem with ftp, but goin by the web is easier. Thanks.


SilverFire

"Why is destiny always beckoning to every PUNK who comes along?"

Wolverine
_Scorpio Rising_
Message no. 14
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 14:40:23 +0930
Susan Sherman wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me why Cerebus isn't accessible by the web? I can
> get it no problem with ftp, but goin by the web is easier. Thanks.

Almost all Web clients can access ftp.

Try ftp://cerebus.acusd.edu/Role-Playing/Shadowrun/ as your URL.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 15
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 09:36:22 -0400
On Sun, 14 May 1995, Susan Sherman wrote:

> Can anyone tell me why Cerebus isn't accessible by the web? I can
> get it no problem with ftp, but goin by the web is easier. Thanks.

It is, at the URL <ftp://cerebus.acusd.edu>, but it is quite
painfully slow -- I'd suggest using ncftp instead, if you have it.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot." |
| -- Anon. |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 19:43:44 +0200
> Can anyone tell me why Cerebus isn't accessible by the web? I can
>get it no problem with ftp, but goin by the web is easier. Thanks.

It works fine for me, though the link is a bit slow (but I'm in Europe, so
that might be part of the problem)... ftp://cerebus.acusd.edu should get you
there.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zonco presents... Aural Floss! Order now while stocks last!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 17
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Question
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:35:50 -0400
I have a player who is useing a Double Barreled shotgun (sawed-off) Can
anyone send me stats for this? Esp. firing both barrels at the same time.

What about the stats (damage) for Rocksalt loads. It would be stun I think.

Thanks in advance,

_______________________________________________________________________________


"Come Friends Run With me Towards Danger"
-Unknown MST3K quote

Scott Spencer
sts100z@********.cc.odu.edu

"Nothing can stop us......we're on a mission from Glod"
-Cliff the Troll from Terry Prachett's Soul Music
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 11:49:21 +0100
> From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>

> I have a player who is useing a Double Barreled shotgun (sawed-off) Can
> anyone send me stats for this? Esp. firing both barrels at the same time.

These are just thought up now here, right this moment:

Conceal: 1
Ammo: 2 (b)
Mode: 2x SS
Damage: 10S
Weight: 4.5
Availability: 2/24hrs
Cost: 500Y
Street Index: .8

You can saw off the barrels to increase Concealability, though at the cost
of the Power Level -- every point of Conceal reduces Power by 1 (for
example, Concealability 2 makes Damage 9S), with a maximum of 3 points of
Concealability increase this way. Sawing off the stock adds +2 to Conceal,
but means you cannot fire the weapon from the shoulder.
The "Mode: 2x SS" means you can fire each barrel in a Simple Action.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be that it's only superficiality?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 19
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:16:28 GMT
Gurth writes
> > From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
>
> > I have a player who is useing a Double Barreled shotgun (sawed-off) Can
> > anyone send me stats for this? Esp. firing both barrels at the same time.
>
> These are just thought up now here, right this moment:
>
[stats trimmed]

being the same code as the basic single barrel one that looks fine.

> Gurth@******.nl

Mark
Message no. 20
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:34:14 GMT
> I have a player who is useing a Double Barreled shotgun (sawed-off) Can
> anyone send me stats for this? Esp. firing both barrels at the same time.

Let's see... call it Concealability 6 (it's easy to hide), 2kg weight,
cost Y200. Availability 3/24 hours, street index 0.5.

Damage is 7S: firing shot rounds, it has a Choke of 2 which cannot be
changed or modified. Use Hold-Out Pistol ranges.

All off the top of my head... I did work it out a while ago. It'll go
in my NERPS article after I play with it a little more.

> What about the stats (damage) for Rocksalt loads. It would be stun I think.
> Thanks in advance,

Rocksalt would be something like 3S damage. I doubt it would be stun:
point-blank into a face would probably blind and possibly kill.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 22:24:26 +0100
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 22:24:23 +0100 (MET)

> Let's see... call it Concealability 6 (it's easy to hide), 2kg weight,
> cost Y200. Availability 3/24 hours, street index 0.5.
> Damage is 7S: firing shot rounds, it has a Choke of 2 which cannot be
> changed or modified. Use Hold-Out Pistol ranges.
> All off the top of my head... I did work it out a while ago. It'll go
> in my NERPS article after I play with it a little more.

I think you should just add the powerniveaus when firing both barrels
simultaneously, which would make for a 14S damage (hmmm... maybe 7D
would be better)

> > What about the stats (damage) for Rocksalt loads. It would be stun I think.
> > Thanks in advance,
> Rocksalt would be something like 3S damage. I doubt it would be stun:
> point-blank into a face would probably blind and possibly kill.

Nope. This "point-blank" in the face stuff is some
"overflow-phenomenon". You can easily kill someone with a stun weapon,
you just got to apply enough damage - so I would think you should make
Rocksalt stun damage.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 22
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:26:47 -0500
> > Let's see... call it Concealability 6 (it's easy to hide), 2kg weight,
> > cost Y200. Availability 3/24 hours, street index 0.5.
> > Damage is 7S: firing shot rounds, it has a Choke of 2 which cannot be
> > changed or modified. Use Hold-Out Pistol ranges.
> > All off the top of my head... I did work it out a while ago. It'll go
> > in my NERPS article after I play with it a little more.
>
> I think you should just add the powerniveaus when firing both barrels
> simultaneously, which would make for a 14S damage (hmmm... maybe 7D
> would be better)
NO. Firing both barrels is a short burst, adds 1 to power. thats all. read
description (srII) of walthe pb100 holdout pistol. It is a double barrell.

>
> > > What about the stats (damage) for Rocksalt loads. It would be stun I think.
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > Rocksalt would be something like 3S damage. I doubt it would be stun:
> > point-blank into a face would probably blind and possibly kill.
>
> Nope. This "point-blank" in the face stuff is some
> "overflow-phenomenon". You can easily kill someone with a stun weapon,
> you just got to apply enough damage - so I would think you should make
> Rocksalt stun damage.
>
Try treating rocksalt as combo flecete/gell. Power -2, damage stage +1
against unarmored targets, target gets full ballistic or double impact,
whichever is higher. Maybe ignore the damage stage bonus- rocksalt is very
light. This lightness would also reduce range, by as much as half if not more.
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:06 +0100
Sebastian Wiers said on 5 Oct 95...

> NO. Firing both barrels is a short burst, adds 1 to power. thats all. read
> description (srII) of walthe pb100 holdout pistol. It is a double barrell.

I don't like that rule, really. Double-barrel weapons in my game usually
tend to fire two single shots instead of one short burst; even if the
weapon is SS, you can say that that SS applies to each barrel separately,
so you can fire both in a Combat Phase.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here we go again...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 24
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Question
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:02:56 EDT
I just want to take this time to voice my opinion that classes that have
only midterm and final tests suck.

Sorry you had to hear that. Now for my question. Where are that rules
for cultured bioware? I have't seen them anywhere and I have access to
many books.

U-Gene << hates it when he has no idea what anyone else is taking about >>
Message no. 25
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:49:27 GMT
i believe the rules for cultured bioware are in the first say 4 pages
of shadowtech it is something like it is grown from tissue samples
you give for increased compatiblity cost 4 times the standard cost
and cost you .75 the normal body cost

for mages somewhere on the net it say that mages using cultured
bioware only pay 10% the body cost in essence as opposed to the full
cost
Message no. 26
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:45:45 -0400
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, HALOWEEN JACK wrote:

> for mages somewhere on the net it say that mages using cultured
> bioware only pay 10% the body cost in essence as opposed to the full
> cost

Which is total crap. It's somebody's poorly-thought-out house
rule for munchkinizing mages by making bioware ludicrously cheap.

Marc
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:06:33 +0100
U-Gene said on 23 Oct 95...

> Sorry you had to hear that. Now for my question. Where are that rules
> for cultured bioware? I have't seen them anywhere and I have access to
> many books.

It's in Shadowtech, somewhere on one of the first few pages that talk
about bioware in general. Oh hell, am I really too lazy to just look it
up? Page 6, the paragraph that starts with "Bioware that has been
protein-matched..." is the one you want :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what does it mean when your mind starts to stray?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 28
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 09:37:33 EDT
Gurth wrote:
>It's in Shadowtech, somewhere on the first few pages that talk about
>bioware in general. [snip]

You mean it's been under my nose the _whole_ time???? Sheesh! You would
think I would have seen that. Jeez, don't I feel silly.

Haloween Jack:
>[snip] mages only lose 10% of their essence [snip]

To which Marc Renouf replied:
>Which is crap. It's just another way to munchkinize mages [snip]

I paraphrased Marc since I lost his message :-(
I think he was refering that the 10% is a _house_ rule, not in Shadowtech.

U-Gene << has a way of losing mail and he blaims it on the computer :) >>
Message no. 29
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:02:00 PDT
>i believe the rules for cultured bioware are in the first say 4 pages
>of shadowtech it is something like it is grown from tissue samples
>you give for increased compatiblity cost 4 times the standard cost
>and cost you .75 the normal body cost

You forgot to mention that all bioware that has neural interfaces are
already cultured. They x4 and .75 have already been incorporated.

cereberal booster, reflex recorders and synaptic accelerators are a few
examples


Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 30
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Question.
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 21:45:16 -0500
Ok.. to get off the current arguments, let me start another one (jk).

I've read Fade to Black quite a few times over. And I've always been
curious: what type of critters are Minx and Monk? Does anyone know?
Or does anyone know anyone who knows?

BTW, I've decided not to drop myself from the list after all.. I was upset
and frustrated, but that's all behind me. Thank you all for your patience.

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 31
From: carmen sbordone <sbordo16@******.NEWPALTZ.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question.
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 00:01:39 -0400
>
> Ok.. to get off the current arguments, let me start another one (jk).
>
> I've read Fade to Black quite a few times over. And I've always been
> curious: what type of critters are Minx and Monk? Does anyone know?
> Or does anyone know anyone who knows?
>
I believe(after reading it myself) them to be some kind of vampiric
creature. However, I'm not saying they ARE vampires. Remember, the doc was a
mage/shaman using that evil book. They two may have been created with the
help of the book.


> BTW, I've decided not to drop myself from the list after all.. I was upset
> and frustrated, but that's all behind me. Thank you all for your patience.
>
> /=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
> | John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
> | SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
> |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
> | Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
> | The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
> | Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
> | (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
> | ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
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Message no. 32
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question.
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:08:37 -0400
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, John W. Carter wrote:

> I've read Fade to Black quite a few times over. And I've always been
> curious: what type of critters are Minx and Monk? Does anyone know?

Some one asked that at GenCon, and Tom said they are basically something
the author thought up.

> BTW, I've decided not to drop myself from the list after all.. I was upset
> and frustrated, but that's all behind me. Thank you all for your patience.

Good. Look at it as a chance to get your blood pumping. :)

--Craig
Message no. 33
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: question
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 13:53:13 -0500
Ok everyone, it is time for another big argument of the year (well maybe)...
because I have a question....:)

What exactly does happen when a nature spirit uses it's aliennation power on
a person?

It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is intangable...
but it also mentioned people shooting through them and running them over
It they are only "invisible" can they cast spells (if they are a mage)?
can people who see astral space cast spells at them..
or are they just gone for existance? (untill the power wears off)
and if they can have spells cast on them, which type? can they have combat
and manipulation spells cast on them? they are intangeble remeber (no body)...

hmmm... what are other peoples thoughs on this...

******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g192/thom0767/index.html
Message no. 34
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 19:57:31 +0100 (BST)
|What exactly does happen when a nature spirit uses it's aliennation power on
|a person?
|
|It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is intangable...

As far as the person is concerned, yes. He can still get run over, shot,
dismembered by a lawnmower, etc, but the person with the gun/car/lawnmower
will just act as if nothing is happening and continue with what he was
doing.

He'll have a bit of a problem explaining where the dent on his car or blood
on his lawnmower blades came from later.

|but it also mentioned people shooting through them and running them over
|It they are only "invisible" can they cast spells (if they are a mage)?
|can people who see astral space cast spells at them..

Astrally, they are still visible. (They must be, there's no way to obscure
someone totally on the astral (yet).)

|or are they just gone for existance? (untill the power wears off)
|and if they can have spells cast on them, which type? can they have combat
|and manipulation spells cast on them? they are intangeble remeber (no body)...

Combat.... Not unless the mage is assensing them.
Manipulation. Well, if they get in the way, then yes.

|hmmm... what are other peoples thoughs on this...

Well.... You know mine now.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |It has been widely reported in the newspapers, that |
|Andrew Halliwell | a so called "puppet" of the queen mother, would |
|Principal subjects in:-| appear on this weeks program. To the press, the |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts |public, and the many members of parlaiment who have |
|-----------------------|so kindly rung in to complain,we would like to admit|
| that this is an outragious and contemptable untruth perpatrated by us, to |
| bring the program into line with current government policy guidelines |
| Spitting Image have never made such a puppet, and were on holiday at the |
|time it wasn't made.... Thank you. (Spitting Image, when it was still funny)|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message no. 35
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 14:12:26 -0500
At 07:57 PM 5/6/96 +0100, you wrote:
>|What exactly does happen when a nature spirit uses it's aliennation power on
>|a person?
>|
>|It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is intangable...
>
>As far as the person is concerned, yes. He can still get run over, shot,
>dismembered by a lawnmower, etc, but the person with the gun/car/lawnmower
>will just act as if nothing is happening and continue with what he was
>doing.
>
>He'll have a bit of a problem explaining where the dent on his car or blood
>on his lawnmower blades came from later.
>
>|but it also mentioned people shooting through them and running them over
>|It they are only "invisible" can they cast spells (if they are a mage)?
>|can people who see astral space cast spells at them..
>
>Astrally, they are still visible. (They must be, there's no way to obscure
>someone totally on the astral (yet).)
>
>|or are they just gone for existance? (untill the power wears off)
>|and if they can have spells cast on them, which type? can they have combat
>|and manipulation spells cast on them? they are intangeble remeber (no body)...
>
>Combat.... Not unless the mage is assensing them.
>Manipulation. Well, if they get in the way, then yes.
>
>|hmmm... what are other peoples thoughs on this...
>
>Well.... You know mine now.


Well what about the person himself, obviously he can't shoot a gun if he is
intangable, but can he cast spells? he can see astrally (I assume) so he
should have los... right?
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g192/thom0767/index.html
Message no. 36
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 14:01:14 -0500 (CDT)
I think it's a silly power...

However... I'd say that the victim of the power would be unable to affect
the world around him, but could easily get run over by cars... shot by
whatever... Hey... how about this? He's intangible to living
beings/anything with a living aura. =)



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies


On Mon, 6 May 1996, Justin Thomas wrote:

> Ok everyone, it is time for another big argument of the year (well maybe)...
> because I have a question....:)
>
> What exactly does happen when a nature spirit uses it's aliennation power on
> a person?
>
> It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is intangable...
> but it also mentioned people shooting through them and running them over
> It they are only "invisible" can they cast spells (if they are a mage)?
> can people who see astral space cast spells at them..
> or are they just gone for existance? (untill the power wears off)
> and if they can have spells cast on them, which type? can they have combat
> and manipulation spells cast on them? they are intangeble remeber (no body)...
>
> hmmm... what are other peoples thoughs on this...
>
> ******************************
> Justin Thomas
> "Farr"
> Email:
> thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
> http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g192/thom0767/index.html
>
>
Message no. 37
From: ratinox@******.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 20:26:43 GMT
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On Mon, 06 May 1996 13:53:13 -0500, Justin Thomas
<Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu> wrote:

>It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is
intangable...
>but it also mentioned people shooting through them and running them over
>It they are only "invisible" can they cast spells (if they are a mage)?

They are not really "invisible"; people will simply find a reason to
ignore the victim of this power.

>can people who see astral space cast spells at them..

Certainly.

>or are they just gone for existance? (untill the power wears off)

No, they are simply ignored.

Alienation is one of the more subtle powers in that it cannot be used to
directly cause something to happen, like Engulf. What happens is that
anyone around the victim will selectively "edit out" the existance of the
victim (something people are already quite good at :). Something deep in
their minds says, "he is not your problem," and they just ignore him. The
results of that can be quite useful or devestating, depending on the
situation: a security guard screaming, "intruders!" at the top of his lungs
will be unheard by his associates, giving a 'runner team some much-needed
time to make an escape (this works well when in enemy gang territory, too);
a pedestrian in the street will not be noticed by the garbage truck that
runs him down (but the impact will still be noticed :); a magician could
use this power to hide himself, but it is risky as help is just as likely
to pass by and ignore him.

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--
Oh, your standard-issue Big Gun. Equipment Division made it, and now it's
part of my private collection. I was late because I... had to get it.
Message no. 38
From: ratinox@******.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 20:26:45 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 6 May 1996 14:01:14 -0500 (CDT), "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz"
<bolthy@**.com> wrote:

>I think it's a silly power...

Silly? Hardly. It certainly is a subtle power, though, as you cannot
directly control the results.

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--
Oh, your standard-issue Big Gun. Equipment Division made it, and now it's
part of my private collection. I was late because I... had to get it.
Message no. 39
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:32:19 +0300 (EET DST)
On Mon, 6 May 1996, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> On Mon, 06 May 1996 13:53:13 -0500, Justin Thomas
> >It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is
> intangable...
> >but it also mentioned people shooting through them and running them over
> >It they are only "invisible" can they cast spells (if they are a mage)?
>
> They are not really "invisible"; people will simply find a reason to
> ignore the victim of this power.
>
So what happens when you would have to acknowledge the person's
existence: e.g. he is blocking a doorway? Does the brain work around the
problem and see it as something else, or react to the problem (e.g. by
fighting the "intangible" character to get him out of the doorway)
without consciously realizing what he is doing?


> >can people who see astral
space cast spells at them.. >
> Certainly.
>
But they would disregard the character as well -- or would they?

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 40
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:05:54 +0200
At 22:26 Uhr 6.05.96, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>On Mon, 06 May 1996 13:53:13 -0500, Justin Thomas
>>It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is
>>intangable...
PNAoE, p. 127: "The alienation power allows a being to shroud its
victim(s) in an aura that renders the target invisible to others. [...]
It renders its victims intangible, inaudible, odorless [...], and
undetectable by both thermographic and normal vision. Those who fail
the Perception Test needed to detect an alienated character are
completely unaware of him; they fire a slug THROUGH him or drive a
vehicle OVER him without realizing it."

>>but it also mentioned people shooting through them and running them over
>>It they are only "invisible" can they cast spells (if they are a mage)?

>They are not really "invisible"; people will simply find a reason to
>ignore the victim of this power.
A good example is in the second book of "secrets of power", when Twist
summoned a city spirit and had it use Alienation on Urdli. People ran
into him, but cursed the condition of the ground for their tripping.
You can still notice the effects of meeting an alienated character,
but would find "logical" reasons for whatever happened, without noticing
the character.
I do know novels are not to be used as sourcebooks, but in above mentioned
novel Urdli was effected by surrounding people, too: He was run over,
bumped into, etc.

>>can people who see astral space cast spells at them..
>Certainly.
>
>>or are they just gone for existance? (untill the power wears off)
>No, they are simply ignored.
>
>Alienation is one of the more subtle powers in that it cannot be used to
>directly cause something to happen, like Engulf. What happens is that
>anyone around the victim will selectively "edit out" the existance of the
>victim (something people are already quite good at :). Something deep in
>their minds says, "he is not your problem," and they just ignore him. The
>results of that can be quite useful or devestating, depending on the
>situation: [...]
Absolutely right.

Huh, I'd never thought I'd be totally agreeing to Steelrat :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 41
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 11:29:21 GMT + 2:00
@ At 22:26 Uhr 6.05.96, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
@ >On Mon, 06 May 1996 13:53:13 -0500, Justin Thomas
@ >>It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is
@ >>intangable...
@ PNAoE, p. 127: "The alienation power allows a being to shroud its
@ victim(s) in an aura that renders the target invisible to others. [...]
@ It renders its victims intangible, inaudible, odorless [...], and
@ undetectable by both thermographic and normal vision. Those who fail
@ the Perception Test needed to detect an alienated character are
@ completely unaware of him; they fire a slug THROUGH him or drive a
@ vehicle OVER him without realizing it."

It doesn't mention ultra-sound, so that is an added bonus. Huh!
Okay, okay I concur, the alienation power effects the individuals
mind hence there would be no bonus from something like ultrasound,
but what about an individual who is watching through a camera say in
the next room vs someone sitting 50 miles aways.

What about drones (the ones that don't require about 200kg of
life support equipment ;)).









Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 42
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 11:18:42 +0100
Justin Thomas said on 13:53/ 6 May 96...

> What exactly does happen when a nature spirit uses it's aliennation power on
> a person?
>
> It says it works like an invisibility spell, yet the person is intangable...
> but it also mentioned people shooting through them and running them over
> It they are only "invisible" can they cast spells (if they are a mage)?
> can people who see astral space cast spells at them..
> or are they just gone for existance? (untill the power wears off)
> and if they can have spells cast on them, which type? can they have combat
> and manipulation spells cast on them? they are intangeble remeber (no body)...

My view on this, is that the spirit does not change the "target" of the
Alienation power, but everyone else. Their brains cease to register the
person who is "targeted" by the spirit's power, and therefore they do not
see/hear/feel/smell/notice him or her in any way.

That means they can do anything they are normally able to, including
casting spells, firing weapons, using physad powers, and so on. Spells
targeted at them would not work, except if the caster is using astral
perception -- remember that magic can't hit what you can't see (except
for damaging manipulations that are aimed at a point instead of a person).

On top of this, the actual target of the spell starts feeling despair as
well, as a side-effect of the power. This of course means that not many
people would call up a spirit and tell it to "Alienate me so I can sneak
into this corp compound unnoticed."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Standing on the sidelines watching the flow
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 43
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 7 May 96 21:59:26 +1030
>However... I'd say that the victim of the power would be unable to affect
>the world around him, but could easily get run over by cars... shot by
>whatever... Hey... how about this? He's intangible to living
>beings/anything with a living aura. =)

Unable to affect the world around him? Uh? So he couldn't, say, pick up a
paperclip.

You're almost right... People just don't notice the victim is there.
People will run into the victim's car on the highway, while trying to
overtake someone else ("I swear there was a gap, officer"). They'll tread
on his feet in crowds. He's in the way for bullets, as you say.

OTH, an alienated being has _some_ advantages, as well... An alienated
person could, say, shoot, and no-one would know that he had done it... So
you have to allow the effects to be visible, of course, and from the
effects, you can deduce the cause. But as soon as you turn away you might
forget about it.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 44
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 13:43:01 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 6 May 1996, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>
> On Mon, 6 May 1996 14:01:14 -0500 (CDT), "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz"
> <bolthy@**.com> wrote:
>
> >I think it's a silly power...
>
> Silly? Hardly. It certainly is a subtle power, though, as you cannot
> directly control the results.
>

I just think the rules they have for it are silly... reminds me of "Ghost
of Christmas Past Ordeals" they have on sitcoms or whatever where the
character yells at the people they are observing, but have no effect on
the environment... I almost feel as though SR had this type of situation
in mind, but didn't think to elaborate on game specifics...

=T


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 45
From: Jarrod D Steeley <tinyskullhane@****.COM>
Subject: Question?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:40:20 EST
What book is the predictions for the end of the world in?

What all is Karma good for?

If I were to just buy a rule book would it get me a good start, even if I
had to make up my own adventures? Instead of buying an adventure. Because
I may no have that much. And how much are adventures? And I'll just need
D6 dice, right?

Tiny Skull Hane <Tulsa,OK USA>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SID LIVES, Elvis is dead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 46
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:39:41 -0500
At 04:40 PM 1/13/97 EST, you wrote:
>What book is the predictions for the end of the world in?
>
Ummm... In SR? none... The end of the world hasn't happened yet...

In teh Bible, it says that the world WILL end, but doesn't say when...

In various books written by silly psyhcics...

Etc...

>What all is Karma good for?
>
In SR You spend Karma to increase your characters Stats, skills, etc...

>If I were to just buy a rule book would it get me a good start, even if I
>had to make up my own adventures?
>
Yes, all you really need is the basic rulebook.

However, following that, before you mess with modules (which run $10-$15),
buy:

SR Companion (Good ideas and helpful hints for newer GM's)
The SR Grimoire (Book with a lot of Magic Stuff)
Fields of Fire (Guns, ammo, fun stuff)
Shadowtech (More Cyber and Bioware)
Awakenings (MORE magic)
Cybertechnology (MORE Cyberware)

And from there start with modules and other sourcebooks...

> And how much are adventures?
>
See above...

>And I'll just need D6 dice, right?
>
Yes... Lots of them, especially if you want to run... And prob a couple
colors...

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.
Message no. 47
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:55:08 -0500
Bull wrote:
>Yes, all you really need is the basic rulebook.
>
>However, following that, before you mess with modules (which run $10-$15),
>buy:
>
>SR Companion (Good ideas and helpful hints for newer GM's)
>The SR Grimoire (Book with a lot of Magic Stuff)
>Fields of Fire (Guns, ammo, fun stuff)
>Shadowtech (More Cyber and Bioware)
>Awakenings (MORE magic)
>Cybertechnology (MORE Cyberware)
>
>And from there start with modules and other sourcebooks...

I don't think I can agree here. The main rulebook and a published adventure are
probably a much better place to start for a new GM and players. If they don't like
it, they haven't spent $100 and 100 hours reading 1000 pages. It may take a few
months to really get comfortable with just the main rulebook (although we're here
to help!).
That said, not all published adventures are at all reasonable for a new GM. I don't
even have any good suggestions for an in-print, 2nd edition (don't make the poor
guy learn the conversion rules TOO), begining GM/player adventure. Does
anyone else?

Bull's suggested order for the sourcebooks is good though. That's the order I'd
buy them.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 48
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:59:47 EST
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:40:20 EST Jarrod D Steeley
<tinyskullhane@****.COM> writes:
>What book is the predictions for the end of the world in?

The Bible, Revelations (I'm Christian, and I'm sick of the blasted W-word
things:)

>What all is Karma good for?

Karma is more or less equal to experience in other game systems. You use
it for raising skills, attributes, learning spells (for magicians and
adepts), bonding foci (again for magicians and adepts), keeping up with
the State-of-the-Art (pretty much everybody, if you use those rules),
buying successes and re-rolls, various other things.

>If I were to just buy a rule book would it get me a good start, even
>if I had to make up my own adventures? Instead of buying an adventure.
>Because I may no have that much. And how much are adventures? And I'll
>just need D6 dice, right?

The core rules book should provide a good starting place. It will provide
background information, all the rules you'll need to get started and a
section on GM's advice. Adventures cost between eight and fifteen
dollars, in general. Shadowrun uses _only_ six-sided dice

>Tiny Skull Hane <Tulsa,OK USA>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>SID LIVES, Elvis is dead.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Message no. 49
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:27:50 -0600
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, L Canthros wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:40:20 EST Jarrod D Steeley
> <tinyskullhane@****.COM> writes:
> >What book is the predictions for the end of the world in?
>
> The Bible, Revelations (I'm Christian, and I'm sick of the blasted W-word
> things:)

You'll also find some in the book of Daniel, and most of the other Old
Testament prophetic books. You'll have to hunt for them, though,
they're not exactly all stuck together in one place.

-Q

---------------------------------------
You think _I'm_ anal? Wait'll Public Safety gets here.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 50
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:16:18 -0500
At 05:55 PM 1/13/97 -0500, Double-Domed Mike wrote:

>>And from there start with modules and other sourcebooks...
>
>I don't think I can agree here. The main rulebook and a published
adventure are
>probably a much better place to start for a new GM and players. If they
don't like
>it, they haven't spent $100 and 100 hours reading 1000 pages. It may take
a few
>months to really get comfortable with just the main rulebook (although
we're here
>to help!).
>That said, not all published adventures are at all reasonable for a new
GM. I don't
>even have any good suggestions for an in-print, 2nd edition (don't make
the poor
>guy learn the conversion rules TOO), begining GM/player adventure. Does
>anyone else?
>
That's mostly why I suggested the modules last, because I couldn't really
think of any good modules that are still in print. plus, most of the
modules that I have seen use weapons, gear, and cyber that's not in the
main book for their NPC's...

Maybe a better suggestion is:

Try out the 2nd Ed. Rulebook for a while... Find some buddies to play with
(If you're lucky, you'll find someone who's played at least a couple times
who can help you and/or will play with you). Maybe pick up one or two
modules to mess with, and ignore or flub any gear that you don't know
about. Then pick up the sourcebooks...

Hmmm.... Well, if nothing else, we're here to help and answer questions...
And of course throw carps and talk about woodchucks...:)

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.
Message no. 51
From: "V.A.L.I.S." <campbellcc@***.HENDRIX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:36:21 +0100
>What book is the predictions for the end of the world in?

Their aren't and _shadowrun_ books about the end of the world, however the
(SR)world does go through _mana_ flux, and the current SR world is known as
the sixth world. (the Earthdawn game takes place in the 4th world)

>What all is Karma good for?

See the other replies.

>If I were to just buy a rule book would it get me a good start, even if I
>had to make up my own adventures? Instead of buying an adventure. Because
>I may no have that much. And how much are adventures? And I'll just need
>D6 dice, right?

yes, basic rulebook, has everything you _need_ to play, some of the other
sugestions are good also.


Sincerely,

Courtney C. Campbell...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
* Courtney C. Campbell *
* Campbellcc@*****.hendrix.edu *
* Http://www.hendrix.edu/homes/stu/campbellcc/ *
* ____| *
* |_|__ "I am not mad. *
* | I am intrested in freedom." *
* -James Douglas Morrison *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
* "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai *
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matter is plastic in the face of mind
-Tractates Cryptica Scriptura
Phillip Kindred Dick/VALIS
Message no. 52
From: Donald G Bixler <mudgb4@***.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:37:36 -0600
> Bull's suggested order for the sourcebooks is good though. That's the order I'd
> buy them.

Well, as a new SR owner, the books I have are, in order of
acquisition: SR2, Grimmy2, Seattle Sourcebook. Those three books seem
to have everything that I need to get the ball rolling. I'll probably
SSC2, FoF, or Shadowtech to expand the Guns'n'Cyber sometime soon.
Which would be the best to get first? Other than that, all I'd need
would be RBB2 when it comes out, although I've been told that Shadowbeat
is great for getting the culture and feel of SR and should be grabbed.
I haven't really seen it mentioned around here much, so I wonder just
how good it realy is...

> Double-Domed Mike

Oops da "The next w**dch*ck crack gets a T-M-D across the head" Ogre
Message no. 53
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:25:01 -0500
>Which would be the best to get first?

Definately the Street Sammy Ctatalog followed by Shadowtech.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 54
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:57:03 -0500
At 02:25 AM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Which would be the best to get first?
>
>Definately the Street Sammy Ctatalog followed by Shadowtech.
>
I would have to go with FoF myself... Mostly because I DON'T need the
description for all the weapons, and they're all listed in FoF... Followed
by Shadowtech. SSC is one of the last books I'd pick up... It's a nice
book, but not all that necessary, IMO...

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.
Message no. 55
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question?
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:53:30 +0100
Jarrod D Steeley said on 16:40/13 Jan 97...

> What book is the predictions for the end of the world in?

It was in an email message from me, last week or so :)

> What all is Karma good for?

It represents what your character learns by adventuring, sort of like XP
in AD&D.

> If I were to just buy a rule book would it get me a good start, even if I
> had to make up my own adventures? Instead of buying an adventure. Because
> I may no have that much. And how much are adventures?

You will most definitely need a copy of the main rulebook in your group,
else you'll have a very hard time playing Shadowrun. You don't really
_need_ to buy anything else, seeing that you can make up your own
adventures quite easily -- especially if you start off with something
simple and straightforward. You could also check out Paolo Marcucci's
Shadowrun archive (http://www.interware.it/users/paolo/sr2/index.html)
which has some adventures written by other internet users.

> And I'll just need D6 dice, right?

Yes. You could play SR with only one D6, but that gets tiring very fast,
since many characters will be rolling six or more dice in many situations.
At least ten is a good idea, and buy them in two colors if possible --
some (minor) rules make a difference between dice. (I myself have 52 in
three different colors, while Paolo claimed, I think, to cause earthquakes
by rolling all his dice at one :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vliegen met die hap!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 56
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:53:31 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 17:55/13 Jan 97...

> I don't think I can agree here. The main rulebook and a published
> adventure are probably a much better place to start for a new GM and
> players. If they don't like it, they haven't spent $100 and 100 hours
> reading 1000 pages. It may take a few months to really get comfortable
> with just the main rulebook (although we're here to help!).

I agree, there's no need to go to town and buy lots of sourcebooks when
you don't even know if you like the game, due to never having played it.
Just the main rules are all you need, and once you've gotten comfortable
with them (and have some cash to spare), you can look into other
sourcebooks to expand the game world.

> That said, not all published adventures are at all reasonable for a new
> GM. I don't even have any good suggestions for an in-print, 2nd edition
> (don't make the poor guy learn the conversion rules TOO), begining
> GM/player adventure. Does anyone else?

Converting adventures from first edition to second isn't that hard -- just
disregard the weapon stats (use those from the rulebook instead) and any
dice pools listed for the NPCs. Still, anyone planning to buy an adventure
for the first time might be better off trying a simple, 2nd edition one;
any one numbered from about 7313 and higher should do. I don't own many of
the adventures, but "Dark Angel" or "A Killing Glare" seem good places
to
start; they're not overly complicated and they're for second edition.

> Bull's suggested order for the sourcebooks is good though. That's the
> order I'd buy them.

The order I'd buy them in would depend on the character in the group, I
guess. The Grimoire is always a good place to start, especially if you've
got player character magicians, and Fields of Fire is good for everyone.
Virtual Realities 2.0 if someone wants to play a decker (my advice here is to
buy VR 2.0 _before_ anyone makes a decker character; it's expensive, but a
_lot_ better than the normal matrix rules from the SRII rulebook).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vliegen met die hap!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 57
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:53:22 -0500
Bull[SMTP:chaos@*****.COM] wrote:
>At 02:25 AM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Which would be the best to get first?
>>
>>Definately the Street Sammy Ctatalog followed by Shadowtech.
>>
>I would have to go with FoF myself... Mostly because I DON'T need the
>description for all the weapons, and they're all listed in FoF... Followed
>by Shadowtech. SSC is one of the last books I'd pick up... It's a nice
>book, but not all that necessary, IMO...
>
>Bull
>--


What accessoies do the SSC weapons come with, Bull? (I know, but I also have the book...)


From a Gateway 2000 manual:
Sucking all the chips off your system board with an industrial strength wet/dry vac is not
covered by your warranty
mailto:jhurley1@************.edu
Message no. 58
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:49:36 -0700
NightLife wrote:
|
| >Which would be the best to get first?
|
| Definately the Street Sammy Ctatalog followed by Shadowtech.

I disagree. The SSC2 is a player's book (toys). Whereas
Shadowtech and FoF have more information for the GM. I
would recomend getting FoF before picking up the other
two.

|

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 59
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:47:59 GMT
Gurth writes

> Mike Elkins said on 17:55/13 Jan 97...
>
> > I don't think I can agree here. The main rulebook and a published
> > adventure are probably a much better place to start for a new GM and
> > players. If they don't like it, they haven't spent $100 and 100 hours
> > reading 1000 pages. It may take a few months to really get comfortable
> > with just the main rulebook (although we're here to help!).
>
> I agree,
likewise
> Just the main rules are all you need, and once you've gotten comfortable
> with them (and have some cash to spare), you can look into other
> sourcebooks to expand the game world.
>
> Converting adventures from first edition to second isn't that hard -- just
> disregard the weapon stats (use those from the rulebook instead)
They list a conversion for the rest in Shadowrun 2, but yes a
beginner is better with a SR2 adventure.

> dice pools listed for the NPCs. Still, anyone planning to buy an adventure
> for the first time might be better off trying a simple, 2nd edition one;
> any one numbered from about 7313 and higher should do. I don't own many of
> the adventures, but "Dark Angel" or "A Killing Glare" seem good
places to
> start; they're not overly complicated and they're for second edition.
>
The problem with 'A killing glare ' is getting the PC's to go to the
ending.
I don't know too many of the rest but stay well away from 'Harlequins
Back' its huge and very unusual, and 'Double exposure', very very
nasty, requires seriously experienced characters/players (not insane
by any means if you are clever), and a knowledge of SR generally is
advised.
There are some pretty good runs in 'Super Tuesday' and 'Shadows of
the Underworld' the earlier ones in each book are typically simple,
can be done by starting characters (yes i've tried it) and you get
five adventures to a book and in the case of Super Tuesday stuff
about 'Campain 2057, the UCAS elections' as well to give you more
campain background.

Unfortunately some of the old standbys are now out of print.

On sourcebooks, opinions vary.
The street sams catalogue is good, a lot of neat toys, ok the guns
have been superseeded but. The equipment from this book however can
be found in SR2 though stats only which makes using some of it
impossible.

One note, if adventures refer to 'initiation' its in the Grimiore.

On editions, only Virtual relaities, Grimoire, and Shadowrun 1 are
obsolete, the 2nded versions are clearly labeled as such (are
called VR2, GR2, and SR2 is black) . and well you
probably cannot buy the wrong core rules these days easily anyway.
Rigger black book is now a wait for the second ed version. Other
books may say 'converted (or similar) for second eition on them, this
can be pretty much ignored, all it means is that when they were next
reprinted after the second edition of the rules cam eout FASA
sensibly converted the equipment statistics to the second edition
versions (only they missed a few:), SSC is notable but no problem
consideruing the proper corrections are in SR2 anyway)

Mark
Message no. 60
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:50:38 -0500
At 08:53 AM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Bull[SMTP:chaos@*****.COM] wrote:

>What accessoies do the SSC weapons come with, Bull? (I know, but I also
have the book...)
>
Who needs Accesories?? :):):):)

Bull

<I agree that it's useful, Just not vital for me>


--
Bull-the-I'm-now-cuddley-because-Dvixen-said-so-ork-decker-turned-GM

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I dare you to use that .sig file for a week!"
-Dvixen, after seeing my new .sig
Message no. 61
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:05:58 +0100
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:37:36 -0600, Donald G Bixler wrote:

>I'll probably
>SSC2, FoF, or Shadowtech to expand the Guns'n'Cyber sometime soon.
>Which would be the best to get first?

IMHO: FoF (anyone will like the additional rules, the equipment ist
also fine)

>Shadowbeat
>is great for getting the culture and feel of SR and should be grabbed.

Don't know Shadowbeat (so I will listen to this thread), but I would
suggest to buy CorpSec Handbook. It's realy fine for GMing, you get a
lot of ideas to make things interesting when dealing with secured
areas. Your players won't like it, I assume ;)

--- no woodchucks in my sig ---
--- sig following this line ---


-- Arno
Message no. 62
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:52:47 +0100
David Buehrer said on 7:49/14 Jan 97...

> I disagree. The SSC2 is a player's book (toys). Whereas Shadowtech and
> FoF have more information for the GM.

How do you figure that ST and FOF are GM's books? I see just as many toys
in either of them as in the SSC... (My only real complaint is that they
all have way too few useless toys :)

> I would recomend getting FoF before picking up the other two.

This I agree with, though. The SSC is at least 75% unnecessary with the
tables in the back of the SRII main rules. All you'll need it for is for
those accessories that come with each weapon, and for a few item-specific
rules, but that's about it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Maybe if I get a really cool suit, that'll help...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 63
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:48:05 -0700
Gurth wrote:
|
| David Buehrer said on 7:49/14 Jan 97...
|
| > I disagree. The SSC2 is a player's book (toys). Whereas Shadowtech and
| > FoF have more information for the GM.
|
| How do you figure that ST and FOF are GM's books? I see just as many toys
| in either of them as in the SSC... (My only real complaint is that they
| all have way too few useless toys :)

Sorry, I don't claim that ST and FoF are GM's books. I
feel that they have more information that is relevant to a
GM than the SCC2.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 64
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:25:03 -0500
At 01:52 PM 1/15/97 +0100, you wrote:
>David Buehrer said on 7:49/14 Jan 97...
>
>> I disagree. The SSC2 is a player's book (toys). Whereas Shadowtech and
>> FoF have more information for the GM.
>
>How do you figure that ST and FOF are GM's books? I see just as many toys
>in either of them as in the SSC... (My only real complaint is that they
>all have way too few useless toys :)
>
I think he's saying this because ST and FoF have some new optional rules,
and some background info in them, where the SSC is all new weapons and a
couple new Archtypes (Which are in the contacts book as well, I think).

Oh, and if you have FoF, make all newer players read the Merc part in the
front about professionalism... It might help prevent idiot munchkinism...

>> I would recomend getting FoF before picking up the other two.
>
>This I agree with, though. The SSC is at least 75% unnecessary with the
>tables in the back of the SRII main rules. All you'll need it for is for
>those accessories that come with each weapon, and for a few item-specific
>rules, but that's about it.
>
Yup yup...

Bull
--
Bull-the-I'm-now-cuddley-because-Dvixen-said-so-ork-decker-turned-GM

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I dare you to use that .sig file for a week!"
-Dvixen, after seeing my new .sig
Message no. 65
From: Jarrod D Steeley <tinyskullhane@****.COM>
Subject: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:47:53 EST
How would I get on to Shadowtech?

Tiny Skull Hane
Message no. 66
From: Tim Coxon <Tim.Ntoo@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:47:22 -0000
----------
> From: Jarrod D Steeley <tinyskullhane@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Question????
> Date: Saturday, February 15, 1997 11:47 PM
>
> How would I get on to Shadowtech?
>
> Tiny Skull Hane
Hmmm... Has the tiny skull bit have any relationship to your brain size?
Shadowtech is a shadowrun source book.

And that was another thought from the black depths of my mind.
****Tim-Ntoo****
Tim.Ntoo@**********.com
Message no. 67
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:18:26 -0500
At 11:47 PM 2/15/97 -0000, Tim Coxon spouted this nonsense:
>> How would I get on to Shadowtech?
>>
>> Tiny Skull Hane
>Hmmm... Has the tiny skull bit have any relationship to your brain size?
>Shadowtech is a shadowrun source book.
>
Be nice, Tim...:) He's admitted to being a newbie before...:)

And he might mean ShadowTk, the other list...

Did you mean ShadowTk, Tiny?

Sascha? Pete? Someone might want to give this guy a copy of the FAQ AND
the Newbie's Guide to ShadowTk that Pete put together before he even thinks
of posting there, if that's his intentions...:)

Bull
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 68
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 01:06:16 +0000
|
|How would I get on to Shadowtech?

Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 69
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 20:16:11 -0500
At 01:06 AM 2/16/97 +0000, Spike spouted this nonsense:
>|How would I get on to Shadowtech?
>
>Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?
>
Ummm.... It's a mailing list devoted to nothing but munchy cyber and
bioware?

;-)

Actually, I think he meant ShadowTk...

Bull
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 70
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 01:21:36 +0000
|
|At 01:06 AM 2/16/97 +0000, Spike spouted this nonsense:
|>|How would I get on to Shadowtech?
|>
|>Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?
|>
|Ummm.... It's a mailing list devoted to nothing but munchy cyber and
|bioware?
|
|;-)
|
|Actually, I think he meant ShadowTk...

Cyber? Bioware? Inferno? Nahhhh, those three definately don't mix....

I'm glad I'm on the grimmy mailing list....

:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 71
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 20:32:37 EST
On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:47:22 -0000 Tim Coxon <Tim.Ntoo@**********.COM>
writes:
>----------
>> From: Jarrod D Steeley <tinyskullhane@****.COM>
>> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>> Subject: Question????
>> Date: Saturday, February 15, 1997 11:47 PM
>>
>> How would I get on to Shadowtech?

Tim nToo is right, Shadowtech is a sourcebook, sort of the precursor to
Cybertechnology. If you mean Shadowland (http://www.shadowland.org),
you'll need some sort of 32-bit OS (almost anything except normal
DOS/Windoze, ie Unix/Linux, Win 95, Mac 7.2 (I think), OS/2 (almost
certainly), or Windoze NT), and a browser that can run Java. If you've
got that, just go over there and sign on (instructions are over there)
It's a nice place, but I haven't been there since they went to Java
(can't run Netscape 3.01 32-bit over AOL:(


>>
>> Tiny Skull Hane
>Hmmm... Has the tiny skull bit have any relationship to your brain
>size?
>Shadowtech is a shadowrun source book.
>
And if that's what he wants, simply go out a buy it ($15.00 US, I think)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 72
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 01:38:53 +0000
|Tim nToo is right, Shadowtech is a sourcebook, sort of the precursor to
|Cybertechnology. If you mean Shadowland (http://www.shadowland.org),
|you'll need some sort of 32-bit OS (almost anything except normal
|DOS/Windoze, ie Unix/Linux, Win 95, Mac 7.2 (I think), OS/2 (almost
|certainly), or Windoze NT), and a browser that can run Java. If you've
|got that, just go over there and sign on (instructions are over there)
|It's a nice place, but I haven't been there since they went to Java
|(can't run Netscape 3.01 32-bit over AOL:(

Why does it require a 32 bit CPU to access a web site?

That seems very.... strange.....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 73
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:16:11 -0500
At 01:38 AM 2/16/97 +0000, Spike spouted this nonsense:
>|Tim nToo is right, Shadowtech is a sourcebook, sort of the precursor to
>|Cybertechnology. If you mean Shadowland (http://www.shadowland.org),
>|you'll need some sort of 32-bit OS (almost anything except normal
>|DOS/Windoze, ie Unix/Linux, Win 95, Mac 7.2 (I think), OS/2 (almost
>|certainly), or Windoze NT), and a browser that can run Java. If you've
>|got that, just go over there and sign on (instructions are over there)
>|It's a nice place, but I haven't been there since they went to Java
>|(can't run Netscape 3.01 32-bit over AOL:(
>
>Why does it require a 32 bit CPU to access a web site?
>
>That seems very.... strange.....
>
The sight is all Java Enhanced, or some such drek... I think it's to keep
deckers like myself who are seriously behind the SOTA (Win 3.1) out...:):)

Bull
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 74
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:16:07 -0500
At 01:21 AM 2/16/97 +0000, Spike spouted this nonsense:
>|
>|At 01:06 AM 2/16/97 +0000, Spike spouted this nonsense:
>|>|How would I get on to Shadowtech?
>|>
>|>Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?
>|>
>|Ummm.... It's a mailing list devoted to nothing but munchy cyber and
>|bioware?
>|
>|;-)
>|
>|Actually, I think he meant ShadowTk...
>
>Cyber? Bioware? Inferno? Nahhhh, those three definately don't mix....
>
>I'm glad I'm on the grimmy mailing list....
>
>:)
>
Yuppers... ShadowGrmm is the munchy list for Mages like Inferno all right...

And I'm on ShadowDk, for Munchy Deckers like Bull (Waitaminute... I'm not
a munchy...:))

Bull-the-I'm-Not-A-Munchy-Ork-Decker
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 75
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 00:20:01 -0500
>Why does it require a 32 bit CPU to access a web site?
>
>That seems very.... strange.....

You don't need it to access...you just need it to run the Java (which in
turn lets you see anything other than the intro screen)

Basically the Java lets the server keep track of your identity, so that you
don't post in another's name. That could be easily duplicated, but he's
been adding online Chatting and Shadowland contained mail, so it's a bit
more complex.

Personally, it's too slow anymore. But it does have a cool look to it.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 76
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 02:22:50 +0000
|>Why does it require a 32 bit CPU to access a web site?
|>
|>That seems very.... strange.....
|>
|The sight is all Java Enhanced, or some such drek... I think it's to keep
|deckers like myself who are seriously behind the SOTA (Win 3.1) out...:):)

I can't see much reason why Java can't be made to run on 16 bit systems.....
It's all in the settings...

(Hell, C can run on a Sinclair ZX Spectrum.....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 77
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 00:23:30 -0500
>The sight is all Java Enhanced, or some such drek... I think it's to keep
>deckers like myself who are seriously behind the SOTA (Win 3.1) out...:):)

I am of the impression that, aside from 32-bit access, DOS is a far better
system that Win or Win95.

Not that I want to go into THAT argument.....But lets just say that SOTA
isn't always best....

-=SwiftOne=-
(Long live the command line!)
Message no. 78
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 02:23:58 +0000
|>Cyber? Bioware? Inferno? Nahhhh, those three definately don't mix....
|>
|>I'm glad I'm on the grimmy mailing list....
|>
|>:)
|>
|Yuppers... ShadowGrmm is the munchy list for Mages like Inferno all right...
|
|And I'm on ShadowDk, for Munchy Deckers like Bull (Waitaminute... I'm not
|a munchy...:))

Too late!!! Gotcha!!!!

Heheheheh.... Bull admitted being munchy....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 79
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:29:11 -0500
At 02:22 AM 2/16/97 +0000, Spike spouted this nonsense:
>|>Why does it require a 32 bit CPU to access a web site?
>|>
>|>That seems very.... strange.....
>|>
>|The sight is all Java Enhanced, or some such drek... I think it's to keep
>|deckers like myself who are seriously behind the SOTA (Win 3.1) out...:):)
>
>I can't see much reason why Java can't be made to run on 16 bit systems.....
>It's all in the settings...
>
>(Hell, C can run on a Sinclair ZX Spectrum.....)
>
Ya got me... But then, I know very little about programming and such...

Hell, anytime someone says 16-bit system, I think Super Nintendo...:)

Bull
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 80
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 02:29:06 +0000
|I am of the impression that, aside from 32-bit access, DOS is a far better
|system that Win or Win95.
|
|Not that I want to go into THAT argument.....But lets just say that SOTA
|isn't always best....

But then, SOTA and Win95???? Nahhhh.....

Everyone knows that Win95 is the direct equivalent of Mac87.....
(Only Mac87 had fewer bugs)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 81
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:46:15 -0500
At 02:23 AM 2/16/97 +0000, Spike spouted this nonsense:
>|And I'm on ShadowDk, for Munchy Deckers like Bull (Waitaminute... I'm not
>|a munchy...:))
>
>Too late!!! Gotcha!!!!
>
>Heheheheh.... Bull admitted being munchy....
>
Maybe I am... But I didn't START as a munchy...

And I notice you didn't deny that Inferno was one too...:)

Bull
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 82
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 01:01:14 -0500
>|The sight is all Java Enhanced, or some such drek... I think it's to keep
>|deckers like myself who are seriously behind the SOTA (Win 3.1) out...:):)
>
>I can't see much reason why Java can't be made to run on 16 bit systems.....
>It's all in the settings...

Um....I'm not sure....but I think it's the difference between Java and
JavaScript.
>(Hell, C can run on a Sinclair ZX Spectrum.....)

-=SwiftOne=-
(who does C++ only, no Java)
Message no. 83
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:11:56 EST
On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:47:53 EST Jarrod D Steeley
<tinyskullhane@****.COM> writes:
>How would I get on to Shadowtech?
>
>Tiny Skull Hane

1) Pull source book out of bookshelf.
2) Place source book flat on sturdy surface.
3) Carefully place first one foot, then while maintianing balance, the
other foot
flatly and squarely onto the sourcebook.

Congratulations!! Your are now "on Shadowtech"!!!

[I'm really sorry...it's late at night, and I've had a _looong_ tiring
day and, well, I'm feeling groggy and sarcastic.. Do you mean the
Shadowland "bbs" or ShadowTK, or someting?]

A-tired-bleary-eyed-apologetically-sarcastic ~Tim
Message no. 84
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:24:03 EST
On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 01:38:53 +0000 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>
>Why does it require a 32 bit CPU to access a web site?
>
>That seems very.... strange.....
>
>--

'Cause on anything less, you wouldn't live long enough for it to finish
loading!!!!!

I kinda stopped visiting when I got tired of watching those little
meteorites fly past the Netscape logo for unholy lengths of time on the
Unix workstations at school...

[That and I think only the 32 bit OS's can handle the Java stuff that has
to be there for you to even get near Shadowland..]

~Tim
Message no. 85
From: Tim Coxon <Tim.Ntoo@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:33:31 -0000
----------
> From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Question????
> Date: Sunday, February 16, 1997 8:11 AM
>
> On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:47:53 EST Jarrod D Steeley
> <tinyskullhane@****.COM> writes:
> >How would I get on to Shadowtech?
> >
> >Tiny Skull Hane
>
> 1) Pull source book out of bookshelf.
> 2) Place source book flat on sturdy surface.
> 3) Carefully place first one foot, then while maintianing balance, the
> other foot
> flatly and squarely onto the sourcebook.
>
> Congratulations!! Your are now "on Shadowtech"!!!
I wouldn't do that with any of my books they would fall apart :)
> [I'm really sorry...it's late at night, and I've had a _looong_ tiring
> day and, well, I'm feeling groggy and sarcastic.. Do you mean the
> Shadowland "bbs" or ShadowTK, or someting?]
>
> A-tired-bleary-eyed-apologetically-sarcastic ~Tim
Hmmm Must be something about Tired + Tim (either one)
I am reasonably sorry for that Tiny, but (here's the excuse) as fro and
skye know I had previously lost a hours physic HW when my mum got pissed of
and cut power to the house, and then to cap it all, we ran out of gold
blend (coffee).
/me looks down at his feet an looks suitabley ashamed.

And that was another thought from the black depths of my mind.
****Tim-Ntoo****
Tim.Ntoo@**********.com
Message no. 86
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:41:36 +0000
On 15 Feb 97 at 18:47, Jarrod D Steeley wrote:

> How would I get on to Shadowtech?
Grab your copy, drop it on the floor, step onto it. Voila!

Or are you meaning ShadowTK?
Then you might want to see either Pete's or my web-page (hm - can't
remember Pete's adress right now, mine's
http://www.informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de/~jhary/Shadowrun/IF/IF.html) and
READ THE FAQ there (a link to Pete's web-page is there, too! :-)


Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 87
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:53:15 +0000
|
|At 02:23 AM 2/16/97 +0000, Spike spouted this nonsense:
|>|And I'm on ShadowDk, for Munchy Deckers like Bull (Waitaminute... I'm not
|>|a munchy...:))
|>
|>Too late!!! Gotcha!!!!
|>
|>Heheheheh.... Bull admitted being munchy....
|>
|Maybe I am... But I didn't START as a munchy...
|
|And I notice you didn't deny that Inferno was one too...:)

What? You want me to lie?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 88
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:07:54 EST
On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 01:06:16 +0000 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>|
>|How would I get on to Shadowtech?
>
>Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?

It's sort of the precursor to Cybertechnology, it introduces Bioware, as
well as Legalities.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 89
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:38:12 +0000
|
|On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 01:06:16 +0000 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
|writes:
|>|
|>|How would I get on to Shadowtech?
|>
|>Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?
|
|It's sort of the precursor to Cybertechnology, it introduces Bioware, as
|well as Legalities.

Errrrr..... I said APART from the sourcebook......
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 90
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 22:53:18 EST
On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:38:12 +0000 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>|
>|On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 01:06:16 +0000 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
>|writes:
>|>|
>|>|How would I get on to Shadowtech?
>|>
>|>Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?
>|
>|It's sort of the precursor to Cybertechnology, it introduces Bioware,
>as
>|well as Legalities.
>
>Errrrr..... I said APART from the sourcebook......
Ooops...thought you meant that you didn't know what it was, other than
that it was an SR sourcebook of some sort...so I described what was in
the sourcebook (assuming you did not have it:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 91
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:20:44 +0100
L Canthros said on 12:07/16 Feb 97...

> >Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?
>
> It's sort of the precursor to Cybertechnology, it introduces Bioware, as
> well as Legalities.

He asked what it was, _apart_from_ the sourcebook... To my knowledge, the
only Shadowtech there is, is the FASA sourcebook..

(Oh BTW, legalities were introduced in Sprawl Sites, but they got expanded
in Shadowtech.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I could be so jealous of someone like me.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 92
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question????
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:43:25 EST
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:20:44 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>L Canthros said on 12:07/16 Feb 97...
>
>> >Apart from the FASA sourcebook, what IS shadowtech?
>>
>> It's sort of the precursor to Cybertechnology, it introduces
>Bioware, as
>> well as Legalities.
>
>He asked what it was, _apart_from_ the sourcebook... To my knowledge,
>the
>only Shadowtech there is, is the FASA sourcebook..

You're a little late, Spike already told me:)


>
>(Oh BTW, legalities were introduced in Sprawl Sites, but they got
>expanded
>in Shadowtech.)
>
That I didn't know (I have Shadowtech)...I'll hae to look over my
friend's copy of Sprawl Sites...

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 93
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@****.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Question
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:35:08 -0400
I have recently found a used copy of DMZ at my favorite gaming store. Is
it worth picking up? Also, has anyone seen the new module, Mob War yet, I
am very leery of buying new modules given that most of them stink.

Thanks in advance,

Scott


"The sights on this gun must be off all I keep hitting are coffee
mugs." -John Cleese
Message no. 94
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:51:36 -0600
Scott Taylor Spencer wrote:
|
| I have recently found a used copy of DMZ at my favorite gaming store. Is
| it worth picking up? Also, has anyone seen the new module, Mob War yet, I
| am very leery of buying new modules given that most of them stink.

Maybe if they're letting it go for $5.00 (US) or less. And
from what I've heard that's a big maybe.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 95
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:54:21 -0500
On 02:35 PM 4/10/97 -0400, Scott Taylor Spencer typed:
>I have recently found a used copy of DMZ at my favorite gaming store. Is
>it worth picking up?

If it's priced at $2 or less... Rumor has it it doesn't integrate well
with the standard Shadowrun rules, takes even longer to learn than it takes
to generate a magician in Rolemaster, and is overpriced.

Mob War is out?


-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"I'll get it." [BLAM BLAM BLAM]
"Man, you suck."
-Hellboy and The Savage Dragon, trying to prevent Hitler's brain from
escaping.
Message no. 96
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:32:39 -0500
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Faux Pas (Thomas) wrote:

> Mob War is out?
>
> -Thomas Deeny

Yup. It's at Dragon's Lair, at least, o fellow Austinite.

Tim Serpas
Message no. 97
From: Chris Robb <Darkskull@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:39:44 -0700
I bought a copy of DMZ at a Con strictly for the maps that are inside.
The rest I didn't care about.

Chris Robb aka Eclipse



At 01:54 PM 4/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On 02:35 PM 4/10/97 -0400, Scott Taylor Spencer typed:
>>I have recently found a used copy of DMZ at my favorite gaming store. Is
>>it worth picking up?
>
>If it's priced at $2 or less... Rumor has it it doesn't integrate well
>with the standard Shadowrun rules, takes even longer to learn than it takes
>to generate a magician in Rolemaster, and is overpriced.
>
>Mob War is out?
>
>
>-Thomas Deeny
>telltale.hart.org
>
>"I'll get it." [BLAM BLAM BLAM]
>"Man, you suck."
> -Hellboy and The Savage Dragon, trying to prevent Hitler's brain from
>escaping.
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------
|| Come ride The River ------- http://www.theriver.com/ ||
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 98
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:02:14 +0100
Faux Pas (Thomas) said on 13:54/10 Apr 97...

> If it's priced at $2 or less... Rumor has it it doesn't integrate well
> with the standard Shadowrun rules, takes even longer to learn than it takes
> to generate a magician in Rolemaster, and is overpriced.

That's a bit exaggerated, IMHO. The only real problem with DMZ is that its
rules aren't in any way similar to standard SR rules, so in essence you're
going to have to learn a whole new game from the ground up, that only
happens to be set in the same universe as Shadowrun.

Still, if they're asking full price (US$30?) for it, I'd say leave it
where it is. At $15 or so you might want to check it out, if you're into
wargaming as well as roleplaying.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Creativiteit in de handen van ambtenaren is zoiets
als een staaf dynamiet in een kinderknuistje.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 99
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:02:13 +0100
Scott Taylor Spencer said on 14:35/10 Apr 97...

> I have recently found a used copy of DMZ at my favorite gaming store. Is
> it worth picking up?

Wait a sec, I'll dig through my saved posts for an old answer to the same
question...

[snip message header]
Felix Zwingenberger said on 23:04/ 3 Jan 97...

> okay, just to ask some more stupid questions... I don't know what DMZ
> is... could someone tell me and where to get information about it? I
> couldn't find that product on the FASA homepage... Is it some kind of
> Battletech game (ie just fighting)?

DMZ is a tactical wargame for SR, based on the BattleTroops squad-level
game for BattleTech. It uses a dot-to-dot movement system, rather than
hex-based, and though DMZ's components (counters and maps) are higher
quality than those of BattleTroops, I find BT the better game of the two...

DMZ has overly complicated rules that slow down play tremendously; for
example, if you want to shoot someone you first have to find the range to
target (as usual; nothing wrong with this); second, find the Success Value
that belongs to this range (this represents the character's skill as well
as the weapon's accuracy); then subtract the target's Defense Value from
the Success Value (representing Body, armor, and other defenses); finally
add in modifiers for the situation, and roll 2D6. If the roll is equal to,
or below the TN you hit. To further complicate things, modifiers that make
it harder to hit are usually _positive_, because they're added to the
Defense Value rather than to the final TN. OTOH there are also positive
modifiers that make it easier to hit, because they're added to the Success
Value...

BT is much simpler in that you find the range and that sets the TN
(short=6, long=8); add in modifiers; then roll your 2D6. Rolling equal to
or higher than the TN and you hit.

Furthermore, DMZ lacks rules for all vehicles except motorcycles, but
naturally it does have magic rules, which BT obviously lacks :)

DMZ is out of print, if I'm correct (it's not in the 1996 FASA catalog),
IMHO probably in part because most people find it the worst addition to the
SR line. I bought it, I've played it sometimes, and it's actually kind of
fun, but it's not a great game. If you're thinking of buying it to make
combat between large groups in SR speed up, go get two sourcebooks for your
cash instead...

[snip my old .sig]

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Creativiteit in de handen van ambtenaren is zoiets
als een staaf dynamiet in een kinderknuistje.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 100
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:31:18 -0600
Chris Robb wrote:
|
| I bought a copy of DMZ at a Con strictly for the maps that are inside.
| The rest I didn't care about.
|
| Chris Robb aka Eclipse
|
| At 01:54 PM 4/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
| >On 02:35 PM 4/10/97 -0400, Scott Taylor Spencer typed:
| >>I have recently found a used copy of DMZ at my favorite gaming store. Is
| >>it worth picking up?

[snip]

Please, do not quote the entire post to which you are replying. Just quote
the part that you are replying too. And, please place your reply after the
post you have quoted. It makes posts a lot easier to read.

Thanks,
-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 101
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:38:34 EDT
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:54:21 -0500 "Faux Pas (Thomas)" writes:
>On 02:35 PM 4/10/97 -0400, Scott Taylor Spencer typed:
>>I have recently found a used copy of DMZ at my favorite gaming store.
Is
>>it worth picking up?
>
>If it's priced at $2 or less... Rumor has it it doesn't integrate well
>with the standard Shadowrun rules, takes even longer to learn than it
takes
>to generate a magician in Rolemaster, and is overpriced.

What do you mean "rumor".... it's a well established FACT.

~Tim (who still cracks up when he reads that suggestion in the back of
the rule booklette that players _could_ use DMZ rules for real SR)
Message no. 102
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:05:06 -0500
On 12:38 PM 4/11/97 EDT, Tim P Cooper typed:
>>If it's priced at $2 or less... Rumor has it it doesn't integrate well
>>with the standard Shadowrun rules, takes even longer to learn than it
>takes
>>to generate a magician in Rolemaster, and is overpriced.
>
>What do you mean "rumor".... it's a well established FACT.

Well, I know some people who can create a Rolemaster magician in under two
hours... :)

BTW, the expansion for DMZ that isn't labeled an expansion for DMZ, Sprawl
Maps, is another product that isn't worth even half price. Six maps for
about what, $10, $12 (US$)?


-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"I'll get it." [BLAM BLAM BLAM]
"Man, you suck."
-Hellboy and The Savage Dragon, trying to prevent Hitler's brain from
escaping.
Message no. 103
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:36:39 GMT
Scott Taylor Spencer writes

> I have recently found a used copy of DMZ at my favorite gaming store. Is
> it worth picking up?
i am given the impression not, but some others have commented

> Also, has anyone seen the new module, Mob War yet, I
> am very leery of buying new modules given that most of them stink.
>
Yes, got it.
I have yet to read very much of it but basically it is a campain
ideas about the underworld book.
It contains a lot of background information on the syndicates in
Seattle, 24 adventure outlines (i believe 4 of them moderately
fleshed out) involving working for or against various folks. It
revolves around the death of the Mob boss James O'Mally (i think thats
the right one). More guidelines on running stuff for non Sr
characters, eg Docwagon are included, comments on the resulting
effects on the lonestar politics (ie could this affect there contract
renewal talks which are due, etc etc.)
I may be able to say more next week when i've finished reading it but
much detail without spoilers could be difficult. As the book contains
no statstics for anyone it will need a lot more work on the part of
the GM to provide runnable adventures.
For reference it was written by Steve Kenson, and is out as adventure
7326, first impressions look good though given the syndicate
involvement already in the game i'm running more info on them will
never hurt.

Mark
Message no. 104
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:25:54 +0100
Faux Pas (Thomas) said on 12:05/11 Apr 97...

> Well, I know some people who can create a Rolemaster magician in under two
> hours... :)

Never tried that, but I do know I didn't like the chargen process for a
non-magician character, nor that of MERP.

> BTW, the expansion for DMZ that isn't labeled an expansion for DMZ, Sprawl
> Maps, is another product that isn't worth even half price. Six maps for
> about what, $10, $12 (US$)?

The place I normally mail-order my RPG stuff sells it for 9.95 UK pounds,
so that's about... US$15? For half that price, I think I'd go for it.

BTW, the DMZ maps can be useful if you need a quick map to show your
players where they and the NPCs are, but buying DMZ for just that is a bit
expensive.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Creativiteit in de handen van ambtenaren is zoiets
als een staaf dynamiet in een kinderknuistje.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 105
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:12:09 +0100
HI!
Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
shadowrun regularly...
What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
disappear for some time?

If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
well?

Ok, I'ts really not too important, but anyway, Id like to know how
others play...

ss
Message no. 106
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:17:39 +1000
> If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
> stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
> well?

We generally either leave them out if they weren't essential to the
plotline or we're in a bad mood. :) If we need their character, someone
else generally plays the character. E.g. my boyfriend sometimes has to
work weekends; thus I take his character sheet to the game session and
play two deckers instead of one :)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 107
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:22:40 +0100
> We generally either leave them out if they weren't essential to the
> plotline or we're in a bad mood.
>
> Lady Jestyr

You leave them out even if the character didn't have time to leave?
So he just disappears sometimes and reappears later? Well, thats the
easiest sulution, but the least satisfying one.

ss
Message no. 108
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:26:47 -0600
Personaly I wouldn't let anybody else play my character and I would not
enjoy playing sombody elses, this is just my opinion but I think that
it's kinda cheap and that it messes up characters to let multiple people
play them (playing styles differ), We tryed it once, not exactly what
your saying but we made a ":group character" that we took turns playing,
It realy didn't work out nor did it enhance out role playing enjoyment,
O~well another good Idea down the drain.
I think the GM or better yet the players, should find a way to have him
not here at the time, It just makes sense to me.

Here's a question I want to through out, Do you PCs play multiple
characters? or just one? I was in a small group once and each person
played at leas 2 sometimes up to 6 players, I think It got confusing
real quick. What do you guys think and or do?

Thankx
Caun :}
Message no. 109
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:27:42 +1000
> > We generally either leave them out if they weren't essential to the
> > plotline or we're in a bad mood.
>
> You leave them out even if the character didn't have time to leave?
> So he just disappears sometimes and reappears later? Well, thats the
> easiest sulution, but the least satisfying one.

If the character in question is in the middle of a scene where there's
no way his/her absence can be logically explained, then I'd say that's
essential to the plotline. :)

EG. if we're in the middle of a blazing gunfight, he stays - but
generally gets ignored by the GM unless we have the character sheet
there. If we're doing a surveillance he goes - just nipped out to meet a
contact, or whatever...


Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 110
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:37:58 -0600
> You leave them out even if the character didn't have time to leave?
> So he just disappears sometimes and reappears later? Well, thats the
> easiest sulution, but the least satisfying one.
>
In our sessions there is usually a small time in game time between
playing, just write a story of why he's not there ie. captured by
sombody, family crisis,whatever. If you know somone is going to be gone
in advance GM could design a campain/senerio about him/her being
captuerd for ransom and you have to get him back or some such It's
actualy quite fun resquing you chummers instead of some wage slave
wackout!You should try it somtime! you'll enjoy it!

Caun :}
Message no. 111
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:36:23 -0400
At 10:12 AM 7/21/97 +0100, Simon T. Sailer wrote these timeless words:
>HI!
>Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
>shadowrun regularly...
>What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
>play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
>disappear for some time?
>
Well, with my group, it seems to be really hard to get everyone together
everytime, so quite often we have someone missing between games.

This isn;t too big a problem, as usually we manage to wap up a night's game
session in a spot where everyone has seperated, or could seperate. So if
someone is missing for the next adventure, the could be sick, getting a
"tune up" (if they're a chrome job), or "communing with the spirits"
(I
have a Shaman and a Physical Shaman, so...:)), or whetever.

SOmetimes, we end thigs in a spot that's impossible to get in and out of.
Currently, my players are crawling around inside an Ant Hive. If something
happens and I have an Extra Player, or am missing one, well... The laws of
physics, and the previous story, can be altered...:]

>If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
>stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
>well?
>
Well... A lot of GM's keep a copy of their players Character Sheets, or
even hold on to the sheet so that theirs no cheating between games. In
this case, another player could play the char (though usually I won't allow
this), or the missing character can be an NPC for the night, run by the GM...

>Ok, I'ts really not too important, but anyway, Id like to know how
>others play...
>
> ss

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 112
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:41:30 +1000
> In our sessions there is usually a small time in game time between
> playing, just write a story of why he's not there ie. captured by
> sombody, family crisis,whatever. If you know somone is going to be gone

Often our sessions break off in the middle of adventures - it's a bit
hard to explain why Fred suddenly just "vanished" before your eyes...

> in advance GM could design a campain/senerio about him/her being
> captuerd for ransom and you have to get him back or some such It's
> actualy quite fun resquing you chummers instead of some wage slave
> wackout!You should try it somtime! you'll enjoy it!

Tried it. Never again... it messes with your head when your character's
best friend doesn't recognise any of his buddies and thinks they're
trying to hurt him. Brainwashing is bad.

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 113
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:56:16 -0600
> Brainwashing is bad.
>
Copy that! (a bit OT though) i realy wasn't talking about that.
Bull's idea of NPC ing them works ok as well, still think getting rid
of them for this session is bes though.
brains are terible things to mess with I rely dislike that false memory
spell in the hands of Johnson, that sucks!

Caun :}

P.S. hey Bull when do you sleep? I don't think you ever stop posting,
just wondering.
Message no. 114
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:22:33 +0100
Simon T. Sailer said on 10:12/21 Jul 97...

> What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
> play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
> disappear for some time?

My usual way of handling this is turning the character into a semi-NPC;
that is, the GM (usually me) plays the character but (s)he stays in the
background. When the other players make plans, I tend to assume the absent
player agrees with them, and therefore so does the character, unless it's
something I know the char would really be opposed to.

> If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
> stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
> well?

Not when I GM, because I take the sheets with me at the end of each game
session.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All these worthless nights, all these wasted days
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 115
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:30:38 -0600
At 10:12 7/21/97 +0100, you wrote:
>HI!
>Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
>shadowrun regularly...
>What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
>play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
>disappear for some time?

In my last campaign this would have been a bigger problem, since the PC's
had decided to be friends outside of work.
In the new campaign I should be starting this week, I've done a bit more of
the deciding for the players, and they will not be close friends outside of
working. This will make it easier for one character to pull out of a job
early, or not show up at all.

>If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
>stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
>well?

I ussually keep the character sheets all at my place, but I've ran games
without them before <g>

-Aj
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
GC3.1 GO d-- s--:-- a--- C++++ UL+ P+ L+@ E? W-- N++ o? K- w O- M- V-- PS+
PE++ Y+ PGP- t+@ 5 X R+++>$ tv- b++(+++) DI+ D---- G++ e- h! r y-
Message no. 116
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:42:39 +0100
|
|> In our sessions there is usually a small time in game time between
|> playing, just write a story of why he's not there ie. captured by
|> sombody, family crisis,whatever. If you know somone is going to be gone
|
|Often our sessions break off in the middle of adventures - it's a bit
|hard to explain why Fred suddenly just "vanished" before your eyes...

In shadowrun, that always was a toughie.... I'd have him knocked unconcious
almost straight away (stun only), and miraculously recover when he turns
up.... Poetic licence, don't ya know...

In rifts, it's somewhat easier. You just have one of the baddies use a
one-use weapon that creates a small dimentional pocket that sucks him
in..... He then pops out when convenient....

:)

|Tried it. Never again... it messes with your head when your character's
|best friend doesn't recognise any of his buddies and thinks they're
|trying to hurt him. Brainwashing is bad.

I thought that'd be the whole point.....
:)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 117
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:44:28 +0100
|P.S. hey Bull when do you sleep? I don't think you ever stop posting,
|just wondering.
|

I thought you knew!
Bull is an AI. He never sleeps....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 118
From: Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:31:09 -0400
At 10:12 AM 21/07/1997 +0100, you wrote:
>HI!
>Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
>shadowrun regularly...
>What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
>play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
>disappear for some time?
>
In or gaming group we don't play the missing person's PC. If there is no
way we can manage this PC to separate from the group we just freeze it.

>If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
>stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
>well?
Our GM keeps copies of our PC (in case someone is cheating) in case someone
didn't bring his PC sheet. Just like happened yesterday with the Otaku PC.

>Ok, I'ts really not too important, but anyway, Id like to know how
>others play...
This is our way.

Hope this help a little

Elven Mage
Message no. 119
From: HAUPT ULRICH FB08 <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:01:46 MEZ-1MESZ
> What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
> play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
> disappear for some time?

As you can imagine the allsaying answer:
It depends on the adventure ! But in my group the character usually
will be played by the game master. In some cases the other players
play the one - especially in combat situations.
Most of the time such characters are judt good enough to hold the
torch, drive the car or watch for Lone Star.

I remember only 4 times when a character was kicked off the
adventure! 2 of those were meetings were ane adventure ended and
another started (with a new game master).

I hope I could help you!

Sandman
Message no. 120
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:12:15 -0600
Simon T. Sailer wrote:
|
| HI!
| Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
| shadowrun regularly...
| What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
| play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
| disappear for some time?

If the character isn't required for the adventure to continue (has
special knowledge or skills) then I do the following. In my game
there are a couple of forces that can magically summon the PCs.
Depending on which PC it is the effects vary. The PC is either
surounded by bands of blue light as they fade away, or else everyone
suddenly realizes that the PC is no longer there and hasn't been for
at least 5-10 minutes and they can't remember when he left. The PCs
return the same way with no memory of their experiences when
summoned. Sometimes they come back wounded.

At some point in the far future the PCs will encounter these forces
face to face.

If the character is required, then we find something else to do (Magic,
Roborally, see a movie, etc).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 121
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:06:18 -0400
On Monday, July 21, 1997 05:22, Simon T.
Sailer[SMTP:Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT] wrote:
> > We generally either leave them out if they weren't essential to the
> > plotline or we're in a bad mood.
> >
> > Lady Jestyr
>
> You leave them out even if the character didn't have time to leave?
> So he just disappears sometimes and reappears later? Well, thats the
> easiest sulution, but the least satisfying one.

In Shadowrun, I try to give a logical explanation of why the PC is not
interacting with the rest of the party. It's also easier in SR than in a
fantasy game.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 122
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:04:49 -0400
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Simon T. Sailer wrote:

->HI!
->Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
->shadowrun regularly...
->What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
->play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
->disappear for some time?
->
->If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
->stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
->well?
->
->Ok, I'ts really not too important, but anyway, Id like to know how
->others play...
->
That depends on where we are in the story. If we are just about to
enter a combat or inside the Renraku complex when we have to call it
quits then by all means that character will be there next session. But
if they are still in the legwork part of the run well then that
character will have a close relative die or some such to get him out
for the night. I overcome the character sheet problem by making the
characters leave coppies of their characters with me. If for some
reason they didn't and the character can't be written out then at the
first oppourtunity the character will be killed (to bad for the player
he knew the rules). If I do have the sheet then he will be run by
another played with me holding veto power on any actions if I think he
is being played out of character (no making the absent guys character
charge the machine gun nest to cover the rest of the teams escape).
Message no. 123
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:17:14 -0400
At 03:56 AM 7/20/97 -0600, Caun Haskins wrote these timeless words:
>> Brainwashing is bad.
>>
> Copy that! (a bit OT though) i realy wasn't talking about that.
>Bull's idea of NPC ing them works ok as well, still think getting rid
>of them for this session is bes though.
>brains are terible things to mess with I rely dislike that false memory
>spell in the hands of Johnson, that sucks!
>
Agreed.though fortunately I haven't run across this one (and with our
willpowers, It's doubtful it WILL work, unless done by a Dragon or one of
the IE, in which case, I WAT to forget...:))

>Caun :}
>
>P.S. hey Bull when do you sleep? I don't think you ever stop posting,
>just wondering.
>
Ummm... yes? No? maybe?

Heh... Actually, I don;t sleep much, and when I do, it's fairly odd
hours...:] Right now I'm hard at work on Chapter 6 of Quicksilver
Lightning so that everyone can stop bugging me for more of it. I'll
probably stay up long enough to finish up at least one more chapter, edit a
couple more projects for the next issue of the TSS (Gods... This could be
the All Bull issue, if Fro uses everything I hand to him for Issue 4 :)).

Ok, ok... I'm shutting up and getting back to work...:]

Bull-the-never-sleeping-Ork-Decker
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 124
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:10:58 +1000
> Agreed.though fortunately I haven't run across this one (and with our
> willpowers, It's doubtful it WILL work, unless done by a Dragon or one of
> the IE, in which case, I WAT to forget...:))

Huh. The guy it happened to was a PhysAd with Willpower 6 or 7 and the
adept power Iron Will (or whatever it's called). Don't feel TOO safe. :)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 125
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 02:11:24 -0500
At 21-Jul-97 wrote Simon T. Sailer:

>HI!
>Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
>shadowrun regularly...
>What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
>play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
>disappear for some time?

We usualy say the character in question is out to do something of its own.
Maybe family biz or learning or so.
And if someone wants to contact the character in question the GM
points to the telephone and says call him/her.

>If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
>stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
>well?

Beside noone is allowed to play a character from someone else, no.
We have all characters of our group on disk in our playing area, so no
missing stats.

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 126
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:03:05 -0600
You spoild tho whole fantasy of mine! I thought you were an AI! (JK)
why did you have to spoil it?
Do you have any books published? I was reading you web page and thought
you needed to be a writer, (was going to mail you as such) the I found
out you are! I'd like to get my hands on some stories you wrote just to
see how good you realy are!

Caun :}
Message no. 127
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:07:09 -0400
At 02:03 AM 7/21/97 -0600, Caun Haskins wrote these timeless words:
>You spoild tho whole fantasy of mine! I thought you were an AI! (JK)
>why did you have to spoil it?
>Do you have any books published? I was reading you web page and thought
>you needed to be a writer, (was going to mail you as such) the I found
>out you are! I'd like to get my hands on some stories you wrote just to
>see how good you realy are!
>
>Caun :}
>
Hey Caun, who was this directed at? If it was me, I'm flattered and you
can flatter me some more over private E-mail (after all, I'm the only
rumoured AI on the list that i now of...:)).

Bull-the-not-an-AI-but-plays-one-on-email-Ork-Decker
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 128
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 02:25:55 +0000
On 21 Jul 97 at 10:12, Simon T. Sailer wrote:

> HI!
> Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
> shadowrun regularly...
> What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
> play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
> disappear for some time?

The gameing group I used to game with had several solutions that
were situational:

1) If we were starting a new run, the character was just not there.

2) If we were in an adventure, the character was "turned grey". He
was there but could not be hurt nor could he do anything. The only
way he could be lost was if the entire party was killed. At the first
available opportunity, that does not further complcate the adventure
(i.e. not at a airport where the group is changing planes), he is
dropped from the party.

3) If he is has a irreplaceable skill that has to be done with the
party (He is the only pilot in an adventure that is on a plane). He
does only that skill (GM does any rolls) and is otherwise "grey".

4) If he has a irreplaceable skill that can be done else were (he is
a decker) then the GM handled him like a NPC.


> If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
> stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
> well?

As many of the runs were of a pick up nature, that is a group would
just congrgate and some would suggest a game. The GM kept the
character records. This also limited some of the suspected
unscrupulous munchkins ability to "fix" thier character.



David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 129
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:58:06 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Simon T. Sailer <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 21 July 1997 10:13
Subject: question



>HI!
>Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
>shadowrun regularly...
>What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
>play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
>disappear for some time?

If a player is missing, I will usually make the character disappear as well.
The reasons are two fold. First it ensures that the character survives
until the player returns, preventing abuse by the other players or accidents
associated with mistakes. The second thing is that I don't feel another
player, or even GM can do justice to someone elses character. Very few
people think, act and behave alike, which all comes together to indicate
that the character would not be played accurately.

Oh yes, I know there aree all the arguments "Yeah but I've played with this
character for years and I've known the player since he was born and.... and
.... bzzzt, sorry, it doesn't matter, people think differently, the
imposter may attempt to make the same decision as the missing player, but
it's very unlikely that it will be accurate.

There are plenty of things that go in a Shadowrun campaign that would allow
for the temporary, short term or even long term disappearance of a
character, including the most obvious and important - Legwork.

Nine times out of ten, if I have a player temporarily absent from a game,
then that players character will be researching links ro talking to
contacts. When the player returns, if the scenario is unfinished, then I'll
get them to make a few dice rolls out of game time and I'll give him some
justification for being absent.

>If somebody else plays the character, aren't ther problems with the
>stats since the character sheet in question should be missing as
>well?

As regards problems with stats, most GMs I know personally keep copies of
the character sheets. It sounds like a way of checking on the players, but
in matter of fact, it makes scenario design much easier, because the
characters background and statistics are too hand to facilitate design,
allowing a scenario/game world that reflects the characters better and
allows them to interact within that world's parameters. it also means the
GM has a direct source of information concerning the characters, which can
help immeasurablly towards NPC/PC interaction - especially with contacts.


At least, that's how I do things. :)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 130
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:51:34 GMT
Avenger writes

> >Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
> >shadowrun regularly...
> >What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
> >play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
> >disappear for some time?
>
> If a player is missing, I will usually make the character disappear as well.
I prefer this approach if at all possible. I tend to aim on finishing
adventures around the end of sessions so missing players characters
can do something else during a run but this does not always work.

> The reasons are two fold. First it ensures that the character survives
> until the player returns, preventing abuse by the other players or accidents
> associated with mistakes.
The general policy i and most i know take is similar if a character
has to be there (left off in middle of a firefight or middle of an
adventure where they couldn't reasonably catch a cold or something)
is to put them in the background. Abuse isn't really a problem but
poor dice rolling killing another players character or unlucky
tactical calls are a real danger. Rear guard duty when you are pretty
sure the danger comming form the front is another solution.

> The second thing is that I don't feel another
> player, or even GM can do justice to someone elses character. Very few
> people think, act and behave alike, which all comes together to indicate
> that the character would not be played accurately.
>
> Oh yes, I know there aree all the arguments "Yeah but I've played with this
> character for years and I've known the player since he was born and.... and
> .... bzzzt, sorry, it doesn't matter, people think differently, the
> imposter may attempt to make the same decision as the missing player, but
> it's very unlikely that it will be accurate.
>
Agreed. A reason to force such characters into the background and/or
for firefights have them hang about covering the characters who
usually apply the most similar tactics. Roleplaying other peoples
characters is just not really a working propostion to any depth, sure
for casual stuff it could be done if they know the character well but
descision time for risky descisions no way, as you say people are
different.

> As regards problems with stats, most GMs I know personally keep copies of
> the character sheets. It sounds like a way of checking on the players, but
It's actually pretty useless for that unless you want to waste a lot
of game time checking up on your players. I and most GM's i know
prefer to keep character sheets, if for no other reason than it
minimises the 'i left it at home' syndrome. Players are wellcome to
thier own copy though.

> in matter of fact, it makes scenario design much easier, because the
> characters background and statistics are too hand to facilitate design,
> allowing a scenario/game world that reflects the characters better and
> allows them to interact within that world's parameters. it also means the
> GM has a direct source of information concerning the characters, which can
> help immeasurablly towards NPC/PC interaction - especially with contacts.
>
Very very true. I often curse players that wandered off with them, i
cannot check who has what contact, vital things like armour scores
(helps massively if you are trying to set up a good fight to know
what they are in order to get the balance you want sometimes, with
5/6 syndrome SR is particularly bad for this, AK98 vs armour jacket
is lethal, HK227 vs same is a nasty but survivable if sensible -
assuming burst fire regular ammo)

Mark
Message no. 131
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:46:29 -0800
At 6:25 PM 7/21/97, David Hinkley wrote:
>On 21 Jul 97 at 10:12, Simon T. Sailer wrote:
>
>> HI!
>> Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
>> shadowrun regularly...
>> What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
>> play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
>> disappear for some time?

It's easy when I'm playing and can't make it. My character is a teenage cat
shaman who's chronically late, even when I'm there. "Dude, I flaked."

When I'm GMing it's tricker. I have a pretty solid core of 3 players, and
we just sort of work around anyone who's not there. We usually game every
other week so I can usually plan around if somebody is not going to make
it.


D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"I can't help it, I'm a greedy slob. It's my hobby."
-Daffy Duck
Message no. 132
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:49:16 -0800
At 1:58 PM 7/21/97, Avenger wrote:

>If a player is missing, I will usually make the character disappear as well.
>The reasons are two fold. First it ensures that the character survives
>until the player returns, preventing abuse by the other players or accidents
>associated with mistakes. The second thing is that I don't feel another
>player, or even GM can do justice to someone elses character. Very few
>people think, act and behave alike, which all comes together to indicate
>that the character would not be played accurately.


Is anyone else old enought to remeber the "good old days" when the player
not showing meant you had a point man for the evening :).

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"I can't help it, I'm a greedy slob. It's my hobby."
-Daffy Duck
Message no. 133
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:17:09 -0600
david lowe wrote:
|
| Is anyone else old enought to remeber the "good old days" when the player
| not showing meant you had a point man for the evening :).

Ah, good 'ol Trap Detection 1/2 :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 134
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:22:34 -0700
---Caun Haskins wrote:
>
> You spoild tho whole fantasy of mine! I thought you were an AI! (JK)
> why did you have to spoil it?
> Do you have any books published? I was reading you web page and
thought
> you needed to be a writer, (was going to mail you as such) the I
found
> out you are! I'd like to get my hands on some stories you wrote
just to
> see how good you realy are!

Please quote some portion of the message you were replying to. Though
a little 2+2 can help someone figure out just who you are referring to
in this message, it make not be the case with others in the future

This is also covered in the FAQ.

Thanx.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 135
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:35:12 -0700
---Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> > In our sessions there is usually a small time in game time between
> > playing, just write a story of why he's not there ie. captured by
> > sombody, family crisis,whatever. If you know somone is going to be
gone
>
> Often our sessions break off in the middle of adventures - it's a bit
> hard to explain why Fred suddenly just "vanished" before your eyes...

Exactly the same for our group most of the time. Actually, my players
have been pretty good about being "present and accounted for," but
occassionally you have the one who's late, can't make it, or has to
leave early and a there just isn't a viable explanation for the
character wandering off (i.e. - the group is in the woods 50 km from
the border with the Tir border patrol actively hunting them down and
Seth has to bail and head home to get some sleep for work at 5am
tomorrow.)

Thus we have instituted the Rod of Security. A carry over from my AD&D
days, the rod of security is a standard piece of equipment for all
characters. A rod of silver 30cm long and weighing nothing, the rod
can never be lifted or stolen from the PC. It's sole existence is to
transport the character away in a puff of pink astral energy when his
player has left him. This character is then, held in a metaplane of
fluffy clouds and pink cotton candy, away from harm until his player
has returned. Once a reasonable entry point is opened in the
adventure, the PC is then transported back amongst the majority of the
group in the same flux of pink magic.

Corny, I know but it's tradition and it helps from having to explain
alot in the course of the game. :o)

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 136
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:23:07 +0100
Wow... Thanks for the answers, anyone... What have I done to cause
that amount of feedback? I wrote the question would not be that
important...

Thanx ;)

ss
Message no. 137
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:32:50 -0600
Simon T. Sailer wrote:

> Wow... Thanks for the answers, anyone... What have I done to cause
> that amount of feedback? I wrote the question would not be that
> important...
>
> Thanx ;)
>
> ss

well you didn't think we would let you off with just one opinion did
you? we all must get in on the action!
your welcome

Caun :}
Message no. 138
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:57:05 -0400
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, David Hinkley wrote:

->On 21 Jul 97 at 10:12, Simon T. Sailer wrote:
->
->> HI!
->> Just one simple, not too important question to all those who play
->> shadowrun regularly...
->> What If a player is missing at one session? Do you let another one
->> play his character? Or do you think of a way to let the character
->> disappear for some time?
->
->The gameing group I used to game with had several solutions that
->were situational:
->
->2) If we were in an adventure, the character was "turned grey". He
->was there but could not be hurt nor could he do anything. The only
->way he could be lost was if the entire party was killed. At the first
->available opportunity, that does not further complcate the adventure
->(i.e. not at a airport where the group is changing planes), he is
->dropped from the party.
->

I have seen this methood or something similar to it mentioned but no
one seems to have caught onto SR's built in mechanism for this,
Alienation.

Have a Q(from ST:TNG) like free spirit running around in the game
alienating characters from time to time. This way the character is
removed and it is completely explainable. As to why is this godlike
freespirit taking such an interest in the characters, well why does Q
take such an interest in the Enterprise crew, for his own inexplicable
reasons that we (ie the players ) could never figure out if we tried.
Maybe he just thinks it's fun to yank their chains
Message no. 139
From: Swordman <swordman@******.NET>
Subject: Re: question
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:50:03 -0500
Simon T. Sailer wrote:
>
> > We generally either leave them out if they weren't essential to the
> > plotline or we're in a bad mood.
> >
> > Lady Jestyr
>
> You leave them out even if the character didn't have time to leave?
> So he just disappears sometimes and reappears later? Well, thats the
> easiest sulution, but the least satisfying one.
>
> ss

Personaly I try to find out who will be at the next sesion before hand.
If a player can't make it, I just talk to them then and ask "so what is
you character going to do?", but in the event they can't make it
something "The Tick" like happens, like a metor from space knocks the
character out convienently untill the next session. The others know
what's up and at times throw the unconsious body in the trunk of thier
car untill the person come around.
Message no. 140
From: "DENT ." <denty@*******.COM>
Subject: Question
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:04:52 PDT
Ok I need to know how to get off the mailing list because it is flooding
my mail server.

Dent


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Message no. 141
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:13:59 -0600
At 09:04 8/4/97 PDT, you wrote:
>Ok I need to know how to get off the mailing list because it is flooding
>my mail server.

Nobody bother replying; I've unsubbed him myself.

-Aj

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 142
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:47:03 +0100
|
|Ok I need to know how to get off the mailing list because it is flooding
|my mail server.

Here we go again.....

For the info you require, e-mail listserv@********.itribe.net
subject: <none>
Body text: help
end

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Message no. 143
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:47:53 +0100
|
|At 09:04 8/4/97 PDT, you wrote:
|>Ok I need to know how to get off the mailing list because it is flooding
|>my mail server.
|
|Nobody bother replying; I've unsubbed him myself.

Well... Too late, but my advice is for EVERYONE who doesn't know how to use
listserv.....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 144
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Question
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:25:48 -0700
This one is for the gun nuts :)

If, say, a cluster bomb munition goes off near a tank I'm assuming
there won't be much effect. But, if the bomb hits the tank what
happens? I.e., if an explosive device not specifically designed to
penetrate vehicle armor goes off while it's in *direct contact* with
the armor, can it penetrate the armor? Or do you need to use weapons
specifically designed to penetrate armor to, well, penetrate armor?

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 145
From: HAUPT ULRICH FB08 <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:48:26 MEZ-1MESZ
On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:25:48 -0700 David Buehrer wrote:

> This one is for the gun nuts :)
>
> If, say, a cluster bomb munition goes off near a tank I'm assuming
> there won't be much effect. But, if the bomb hits the tank what
> happens? I.e., if an explosive device not specifically designed to
> penetrate vehicle armor goes off while it's in *direct contact* with
> the armor, can it penetrate the armor? Or do you need to use weapons
> specifically designed to penetrate armor to, well, penetrate armor?

If you want to know such thing that specific I think it is not
exactly to talk about "armor". Some tank have special armor against
a bazooka others have spezial armor against heat seeking missiles.
Maybe there are news groups which care about that problems.
;-)

Sandman
Message no. 146
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:58:25 -0700
Quoth David Buehrer:
>
> This one is for the gun nuts :)

Who, me? :)

> If, say, a cluster bomb munition goes off near a tank I'm assuming
> there won't be much effect. But, if the bomb hits the tank what
> happens?

Tanks of today? Depends. A cluster bomb going off at ground level can
destroy all of the glass in the vehicle, thereby making it blind. It
could also damage the track enough to immobilize it. (That wouldn't take
much really, you'd just have to destroy on track block.)

If the bomb hits the tank from above, you can mark up one catastrophic
kill. The crew will be dead and the vehicle pert near unuseable.

> I.e., if an explosive device not specifically designed to
> penetrate vehicle armor goes off while it's in *direct contact* with
> the armor, can it penetrate the armor? Or do you need to use weapons
> specifically designed to penetrate armor to, well, penetrate armor?

Make a bomb big enough... :) Actually, a somewhat normal sized shaped
charge could easily blow straight through either the turret roof or hull
floor of a tank. If you're hoping to get the job done with a big bundle
of dynamite then it may not have the directional force necessary to blow
through the armor. I'm not shiny on the physics involved and won't claim
to be, but I'd say, offhand, that you'd need armor penetrating explosives
to do the job right.

--
Mike Loseke | Eagles may soar, but weasels
mike@*******.com | aren't sucked into jet engines.
Message no. 147
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:07:41 +0100
David Buehrer said on 10:25/29 Oct 97...

> If, say, a cluster bomb munition goes off near a tank I'm assuming
> there won't be much effect. But, if the bomb hits the tank what
> happens? I.e., if an explosive device not specifically designed to
> penetrate vehicle armor goes off while it's in *direct contact* with
> the armor, can it penetrate the armor? Or do you need to use weapons
> specifically designed to penetrate armor to, well, penetrate armor?

Cluster bombs tend to include anti-armor bomblets, or be dual-purpose
(anti-armor _and_ a fragmentation effect). And anti-armor bomblet going
off near an AFV won't do much except expose it to an explosion about equal
to a handgrenade's, but if it lands on top of the vehicle there'll
probably be a hole in the armor (remember that these things come falling
from the sky, so they tend to hit the thin roof armor)

I must say I don't rellay know what would happen to the AFV if an
anti-personnel bomblet were to explode on the roof of the vehicle.
Shattered periscopes and perforated/blown away stowage, for one thing, but
about damage to the actual vehicle itself I'm not sure. Not all that much,
I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 148
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:03:20 +0100
> This one is for the gun nuts :)

Well, I'm no gun nut, but I'm ranked at 59, so I'll have to take up
somehow ;)

> But, if the bomb hits the tank what
> happens? I.e., if an explosive device not specifically designed to
> penetrate vehicle armor goes off while it's in *direct contact* with
> the armor, can it penetrate the armor? Or do you need to use weapons
> specifically designed to penetrate armor to, well, penetrate armor?
> -David

I would say- depends on the power of the bomb and the
thickness of the armor. A device that spreads its destructive power
over a very large area needs to be far more powerful than one made to
concentrate the power in a certain direction.
And as far as I know, Armor piercing rounds rather penetrate than
just explode. So a explosion can never just penetrate... you need
something powerful enought to tear the tank into pieces or at least
immobilize it to take it out.
Now its up to the gun nuts...

ss
Message no. 149
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:22:12 -0700
Okay, I've received enough feedback that I know understand that if an
explosion is powerful enough it will chew through vehicle armor.
But, that there is a difference between a contact explosion (a stick
of dynomite tapped to a tank) and an anti-vehicle attack.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 150
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:42:01 GMT
David Buehrer writes

> Okay, I've received enough feedback that I know understand that if an
> explosion is powerful enough it will chew through vehicle armor.
> But, that there is a difference between a contact explosion (a stick
> of dynomite tapped to a tank) and an anti-vehicle attack.
>
In one word : 'lots'.

This is why there are 'anti personnel' and 'anti armour' bomblets,
and why 1Kg of C12 in SR wont destroy an armoured wall while !Kg of
well placed plastique in multiple charges will destroy a whole block
of flats in real life.
I don't know any of the detail but how you shape and form an
explosive charge has a huge effect on how concentrated the blast wave
is, armour is very good at stopping the general concussion from say a
stick of TNT, in fact even soft targets such as people will take quite
a battering (why they put fragmentation caes on grenades these
propelled by the blast wave are much more effect and why some old
grenade could have thier effective radius changed by putting them in
a fragmenting jacket (no jacket and only blast has small lethal
radius). Probably has to do with fragments losing power only to drag
while the main shockwave from the explosive will lose power by the
inverse square law or something like)
Concentrated balsts though have far more effect for the same mass of
explosives because a large fraction of the force is concentrated in
only a small area around the centre of detonation. How bomblets
manage to be unidirectional i'm not sure, but they are hollow for
anti armour and i supose this must change the blast characteristics
to something much better at causing scabbing (bits of the inside of
the armour plate peeling off and flying about inside the AFV) thean a
solid block of explosives shockwave is.

Don't know if anyone has accurate details they can share.

Mark
Message no. 151
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:34:29 -0600
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Mark Steedman wrote:

> This is why there are 'anti personnel' and 'anti armour' bomblets,
> and why 1Kg of C12 in SR wont destroy an armoured wall while !Kg of
> well placed plastique in multiple charges will destroy a whole block
> of flats in real life.

well only after you knock out most of the suporting walls by "hand" on one
or more floors and weaken a lot of the suporting collums and then place
small charges of HE in statigicaly drilled holes in the collums. If you
took that much time with the armored wall you can knock it down to:).

> I don't know any of the detail but how you shape and form an
> explosive charge has a huge effect on how concentrated the blast wave
> is,

Basic thery of a shape charge is as follows. The force of an
explosion is equal over the entire surface and perpendicular to that
surface. if you angle 2 surfaces toward each other in a V shape(see
diagram) the forces will cancel in the x direction but ADD in the Z. with
proper shaping you can focus much of the force in one direction. stick a
sandbag on the other side as a tamper and you get even more focusing.

1F
^
|
|---------------|
| |
1F<-| ^ |----->1F
| / \ |
| / \ |
| / \ / \ |
| / | \ |
---- | ----
1.8F

a HEAT warhead adds a copper liner to the V that gets explovily molded
into a thin rod moving REALLY fast. It really isnt a molten jet but at
the speads and forces its traveling at you model the jet and the armor as
liquids:).

> Probably has to do with fragments losing power only to drag
> while the main shockwave from the explosive will lose power by the
> inverse square law or something like)

Yep. that and fragments concentrate the force in a small smot instead of a
wide area. like getting hit with bat instead of a pillow.

> How bomblets
> manage to be unidirectional i'm not sure, but they are hollow for
> anti armour and i supose this must change the blast characteristics
> to something much better at causing scabbing (bits of the inside of
> the armour plate peeling off and flying about inside the AFV) thean a
> solid block of explosives shockwave is.

IIRC the anti armor bomblets are shaped charges. They use some method
(streamor or weighting) to try to always land with the V pointion toward
the armor. To make them dual purpose they put a fragmentation jacket
around the outside to make use of the "wasted" force from the explosive.
You can get similar DP munitions for cluster bombs, cargo shells from
Artilery, and as single grenades for 40mm grenade launchers. I remember
something about russia useing hand thrown shaped charges with streamer
stabilazation as infantry antitank weapons in WWII.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 152
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:00:45 +0000
In article <199710291725.KAA18591@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> writes
>This one is for the gun nuts :)
>
>If, say, a cluster bomb munition goes off near a tank I'm assuming
>there won't be much effect.

If you mean a bomblet from a cluster munition, then it won't do a great
deal to the tank unless any of the crew are heads-out, or they still
have their auxiliary fuel tanks aboard. The bomblet will scatter
fragments and in some cases incendiary material, neither of which will
hurt a closed-up tank except by great luck.

>But, if the bomb hits the tank what
>happens? I.e., if an explosive device not specifically designed to
>penetrate vehicle armor goes off while it's in *direct contact* with
>the armor, can it penetrate the armor?

The bomblet from a cluster munition _is_ designed to penetrate armour.
It's a small hollow charge bomb with a fragmentation jacket, to be
effective against both hard and soft targets.

>Or do you need to use weapons
>specifically designed to penetrate armor to, well, penetrate armor?

Depends how thick the armour is, but in general yes.

This data is for the Alvis Scarab, a light scout vehicle.

"The monocoque hull is of welded armoured steel construction. It
provides protection against 7.62x51mm AP at point blank range. Over the
frontal arc the level of protection may be increased to withstand 14.5
mm AP with the use of applique armour. All round the vehicle will
withstand 90% of all fragments from a 155mm shell at 30 metres."

A 155mm shell weighs over ninety pounds, and is pretty damn nasty. The
LAV-25 is considered protected against shells exploding at ten metres
distance.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 153
From: Matt Dee <d3063587@****.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:14:38 +1100
At 10:25 29/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>This one is for the gun nuts :)
>
>If, say, a cluster bomb munition goes off near a tank I'm assuming
>there won't be much effect. But, if the bomb hits the tank what
>happens? I.e., if an explosive device not specifically designed to
>penetrate vehicle armor goes off while it's in *direct contact* with
>the armor, can it penetrate the armor? Or do you need to use weapons
>specifically designed to penetrate armor to, well, penetrate armor?
>

Firstly, I'll say that I'm *not* an expert concerning cluster munitions.

Secondly, I'll mention that I spent five years in the Australian army as an
EOD specialist (Explosive Ordinance Disposal), so I think I can take a
semi-educated stab at your question.

Any device or material in direct contact with a hardened surface at
detonation *may* cause significant damage. However, if the nature of that
contact is casual (ie. not deliberate, prepared or critically sited), the
damage is unlikely to penetrate something like the armour on a main battle
tank. What *might* happen is that the concussive force may cause splintering
on the inner surface of the armour (ie. the surface opposite the
detonation). Such splinters may range from microscopic rust or paint flakes
to nasty, pointy pieces of shrapnel the length of your arm. These *would* be
propelled at a sufficient velocity to potentially cause damage to anything
within the hull of the vehicle which they hit (like electronics, suspension,
fuel tanks, engines, crew, etc).

This is in effect what HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) rounds are designed
to do as a secondary effect. While their primary function *is* to penetrate
by burning a hole though the armour (using a shaped head designed to "focus"
the molten metal blast through one spot), as a side benefit if they don't
penetrate they will cause splinters to ricochet around inside the vehicle.

However, if something like an anti-personnel cluster munition hit an
armoured target, it would be unlikely to do even that unless it struck a
vunerable spot such as a vision slit or engine vent. Since AP munitions are
designed primarily to scatter shrapnel (in the form of ball bearings,
serrated wire or splintered casing) amongst unprotected targets such as
infantry, the case or shell is designed to focus the detonation in a
different way to an armour-piercing warhead or mine. For instance, an
anti-personnel grenade which detonated on the deck of a tank or armoured car
is highly unlikely to affect anything inside the vehicle (the crew may jump
a bit, but that's all), but it may sever antennae or shred wheels on the
outside.

Have I confused you enough, yet? :-)

Matt.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Dee "I'm not stupid, I'm not expendable,
Fenner Hall ANU and I'm NOT going!"
d3063587@****.anu.edu.au Avon, Blakes' 7, BBC
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 154
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:26:04 +0100
The Bookworm said on 11:34/30 Oct 97...

> IIRC the anti armor bomblets are shaped charges. They use some method
> (streamor or weighting) to try to always land with the V pointion toward
> the armor.

I believe there are also bomblets that have two "front" surfaces, so they
can land in two ways and still go off.

> I remember something about russia useing hand thrown shaped charges with
> streamer stabilazation as infantry antitank weapons in WWII.

The Russians still have anti-tank handgrenades, AFAIK the latest model is
the RKG-3M. It's just a big stick grenade with a HEAT charge instead of a
normal one, and it deploys a small parachute when it leaves the thrower's
hand to ensure it lands nose-down. Penetration is something like 12.5 cm
of armor steel, IIRC.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 155
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:26:04 +0100
Matt Dee said on 11:14/31 Oct 97...

> This is in effect what HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) rounds are designed
> to do as a secondary effect. While their primary function *is* to penetrate
> by burning a hole though the armour (using a shaped head designed to
"focus"
> the molten metal blast through one spot), as a side benefit if they don't
> penetrate they will cause splinters to ricochet around inside the vehicle.

It looks to me like you're confusing HEAT and HESH (HEP to Americans)
here. HESH is not intended to penetrate armor; it's supposed to cause
larg parts of the inner surface of the armor to flake off, as you say.
HEAT, OTOH, _is_ intended to punch a hole in the armor (commonly referred
to as 'burning" even though that's not what it does).

> However, if something like an anti-personnel cluster munition hit an
> armoured target, it would be unlikely to do even that unless it struck a
> vunerable spot such as a vision slit or engine vent. Since AP munitions are
> designed primarily to scatter shrapnel (in the form of ball bearings,
> serrated wire or splintered casing)

Using the abbreviation "AP" is a bit confusing -- I suppose you mean
anti-personnel here, but it can just as easily stand for armor-piercing...

> amongst unprotected targets such as infantry, the case or shell is
> designed to focus the detonation in a different way to an
> armour-piercing warhead or mine. For instance, an anti-personnel grenade
> which detonated on the deck of a tank or armoured car is highly unlikely
> to affect anything inside the vehicle (the crew may jump a bit, but
> that's all), but it may sever antennae or shred wheels on the outside.

I doubt the wheels of tracked AFVs have much to fear from a few bits of
shrapnel. Wheeled AFVs can have the tires punctured, of course, but that's
not something a tracked AFV has to worry about. Also don't forget what
fragments can do to vision devices; there's a very good reason why tanks
have shutters for their gun sights, and sometimes for periscopes as well.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 156
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 03:59:56 -0600
Was over at Hedley's website just now, and noticed that it said to click on the dragon's
skull to
continue. I didn't think that the skull on the Shadowrun logo (with the horns wrapped
around the
banner) was that of a dragon, but what is it?

Argent

Rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
Message no. 157
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:15:12 +0100
Tony Rabiola said on 3:59/26 Nov 97...

> Was over at Hedley's website just now, and noticed that it said to
> click on the dragon's skull to continue. I didn't think that the skull
> on the Shadowrun logo (with the horns wrapped around the banner) was
> that of a dragon, but what is it?

Oooh, the dragon's skull vs. goat's skull flam^H^H^H^H thread again!

IMHO it's a goat's skull, BTW.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We must remember that the news itself is only entertainment.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 158
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:09:04 -0700
Sam and Magus were sitting at the bar, chuckling, when Shamus walked
in. He sat down next to them and asked, "What's so funny?"

Sam replied, "Remember that skull that Fred found last year? The one
that looked like it either came from a Dragon or a giant mutant
goat?"

"Yeah," Shamus answered, "the same one he's been trying to sell for
200,000 Nuyen."

"But he can't because no one will verify that it's a Dragon skull,"
chimed in Magus.

"Go on," said Shamus.

"Well," continued Sam, "he talked a wage mage into going on an astral
quest to positively identify the skull. The mage came back only to
tell Fred that he didn't know what type of creature the skull
belonged to, but that there was a live one living in a cave up in the
mountains."

"So Fred asks for our help. We pack up our gear and travel to the
cave. Fred sets us to gaurd the entrance while he goes inside.
After a couple of minutes we hear roaring and rumbling and the sound
of Fred's Uzi. Then silence."

"Magus and I waited, not willing to enter the cave after that. Then
something was tossed out of the cave and came to rest at our feet..."

"Yes, what was it?" asked Shamus impatiently.

Magus answered, "A voice came booming out of the cave, `Can you tell
me if this is the skull of an idiot, or a moron?' It was Fred's
skull of course."

Shamus sat, stunned. "So, what did you do then?"

Sam replied, "We left and came directly to the bar."

"But," Shamus asked "what type of creature was it? Was it a dragon?"

"I don't know, and I don't want to know," Sam answered. "Goat,
dragon, it doesn't matter. Fred's dead."

"To Fred," Magus said solumnly as he raised his glass.

"To Fred," Sam and Shamus answered in unison.

After a brief pause Sam smiled and asked, "So, was Fred an idiot or a
moron."

"Idiot," answered Magus.

"Moron," answered Shamus.

And so the debate continued long into the night.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 159
From: Hedley <hedley@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:30:38 -0600
On 11/25/97 at 23:24 Gurth said:

] Oooh, the dragon's skull vs. goat's skull flam^H^H^H^H thread again!
]
] IMHO it's a goat's skull, BTW.


Gee, I guess I missed that thread. I wonder why it would be anything but a
dragon's skull - given the nature of the game? Then again, it could be a
goat... Does anyone know who drew the original artwork? I know Larry
Elmore drew the cover of the core Shadowrun rules. Did he also do the logo?
If so, then how would one go about asking him? I don't know if he even has
an email address. Maybe FASA would relay a query. Hell, I don't know that
it even matters... :o|

Hedley
http://box.pcnetinc.com/hedley/shadowrun

Come one, Come All! 100,000,000 nuyen and 100 Karma to the first one to
give a definitive answer to the question everybody's asking. Is it a dragon
or a goat? Or is it something else altogether...
Message no. 160
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:25:54 -0500
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:30:38 -0600 Hedley <hedley@********.COM> writes:

<<Gee, I guess I missed that thread.>>


Hard to believe, but highly possible, I suppose. It's been around the
list at least once and maybe twice (not counting this time) since I got
here in August of '96.


<<I wonder why it would be anything but a dragon's skull - given the
nature of the game? Then again, it could be a goat... Does anyone know
who drew the original artwork? I know Larry Elmore drew the cover of the
core Shadowrun rules. Did he also do the logo? If so, then how would one
go about asking him? I don't know if he even has an email address.>>


Seems like someone had an address that they gave out for him just after
GenCon...should be possible to check through the list archives for
subjects with 'Elmore' in them:)


<<Maybe FASA would relay a query. Hell, I don't know that it even
matters... :o|>>


In the long run (or the short run, for that matter), it doesn't:) But
people (this group especially:) seem to enjoy arguing (and I can name
examples:):)


<<Come one, Come All! 100,000,000 nuyen and 100 Karma to the first one
to give a definitive answer to the question everybody's asking. Is it a
dragon or a goat? Or is it something else altogether...>>


Heh... It's a droat. So there:P


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 161
From: Hedley <hedley@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:04:53 -0600
>Heh... It's a droat. So there:P


You win.
Message no. 162
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:20:14 -0700
John E Pederson wrote:
/
/ <<Come one, Come All! 100,000,000 nuyen and 100 Karma to the first one
/ to give a definitive answer to the question everybody's asking. Is it a
/ dragon or a goat? Or is it something else altogether...>>
/
/ Heh... It's a droat. So there:P

"A Droat ate Fred!"

:)

Q: What do you get when you cross a Dragon with a Goat?

A: Another stinkin flame war.

:)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 163
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:56:06 -0600
On 11/26/97 12:15:12 you wrote:
>
>Tony Rabiola said on 3:59/26 Nov 97...
>
>> Was over at Hedley's website just now, and noticed that it said to
>> click on the dragon's skull to continue. I didn't think that the skull
>> on the Shadowrun logo (with the horns wrapped around the banner) was
>> that of a dragon, but what is it?
>
>Oooh, the dragon's skull vs. goat's skull flam^H^H^H^H thread again!
>
>IMHO it's a goat's skull, BTW.
>
That's what I get for not being a long-term member of the list. If it's in the FAQ, I
deeply
apologize for offending the listmembers, and will perform the pennance of
self-flagellation with a
carp of the appropriate size.

Argent

Rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
Message no. 164
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:00:03 -0600
On 11/26/97 11:04:53 you wrote:
>
>>Heh... It's a droat. So there:P
>
>
>You win.
>
>

Well, that make it official, I guess....his website. (grin)

Was thinking it might be the skull of one of those eastern dragons or some such....

Argent

Rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
Message no. 165
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:09:17 -0600
On 11/26/97 08:09:04 you wrote:
>
>Sam and Magus were sitting at the bar, chuckling, when Shamus walked
>in. He sat down next to them and asked, "What's so funny?"
>
HA!!

(uh....so am I the idiot or the moron...?)

Argent

Rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
Message no. 166
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:22:49 -0500
David Buehrer[SMTP:dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG] wrote:
[snip]
> Sam replied, "Remember that skull that Fred found last year? The one
> that looked like it either came from a Dragon or a giant mutant
> goat?"
[snip]
> After a brief pause Sam smiled and asked, "So, was Fred an idiot or a
> moron."
> "Idiot," answered Magus.
> "Moron," answered Shamus.
> And so the debate continued long into the night.

ROTFL! Ditto Gurth's thwapping. :-)

<ObSR>
Maybe we should write up a bunch of similar "cautionary tales"
to replace/supplement the FAQ. People would be more likely to
read them, at least, and hopefully remember them.
</ObSR>

James Ojaste
Message no. 167
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:24:50 -0700
Tony Rabiola wrote:
/
/ On 11/26/97 08:09:04 you wrote:
/ >
/ >Sam and Magus were sitting at the bar, chuckling, when Shamus walked
/ >in. He sat down next to them and asked, "What's so funny?"
/ >
/ HA!!
/
/ (uh....so am I the idiot or the moron...?)

Hmm... that's debatable ;)

Seriously though, it's just one of those things that comes up every
now and again. The last time the debate about the skull was
particularly long. But we (well, I anyway) easily forgive newbies
for bringing up old debates. Don't ever be afraid of asking a
question, any question :)

A couple of us have taken to answering the "eternal debates" with
flare (see Gurth's post on Physad vs Sams). And Fred is a character
I use in SR stories and examples for my House Rules (Fred gets shot a
lot). He in no way is meant to resemble anyone on this list :)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 168
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:09:43 +0100
Hedley said on 9:30/26 Nov 97...

> Does anyone know who drew the original artwork? I know Larry
> Elmore drew the cover of the core Shadowrun rules. Did he also do the logo?

The logo is by Jeff Laubenstein, Jim Nelson, and Dana Knutson, who are
credited in both my SR1 and SRII books for it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We must remember that the news itself is only entertainment.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 169
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:03:25 EST
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:09:04 -0700 David Buehrer writes:

>Sam and Magus were sitting at the bar, chuckling, when Shamus walked
>in. He sat down next to them and asked, "What's so funny?"...

<chuckle>

So, I'm wondering... I haven't read the FAQ recently but has the RN
charter been expanded to include "Amature Writer's Corner" too?

:P

~Tim
Message no. 170
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:03:25 EST
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:30:38 -0600 Hedley <hedley@********.COM> writes:

>Gee, I guess I missed that thread. I wonder why it would be anything
but a
>dragon's skull - given the nature of the game? Then again, it could be
a
>goat... Does anyone know who drew the original artwork? I know Larry
>Elmore drew the cover of the core Shadowrun rules. Did he also do the
logo?
>If so, then how would one go about asking him? I don't know if he even
has
>an email address. Maybe FASA would relay a query. Hell, I don't know
that
>it even matters... :o|

Speaking as an artist... You may not be *able* to get a definative answer
from who ever painted it. Not that he won't tell you, but that he might
not know what type of skull it is either... it may have "just looked
cool."

~Tim
Message no. 171
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:44:34 -0500
At 07:03 PM 11/26/97 EST, Tim Cooper wrote these timeless words:
>On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:30:38 -0600 Hedley <hedley@********.COM> writes:
>
>>Gee, I guess I missed that thread. I wonder why it would be anything
>but a
>>dragon's skull - given the nature of the game? Then again, it could be
>a
>>goat... Does anyone know who drew the original artwork? I know Larry
>>Elmore drew the cover of the core Shadowrun rules. Did he also do the
>logo?
>>If so, then how would one go about asking him? I don't know if he even
>has
>>an email address. Maybe FASA would relay a query. Hell, I don't know
>that
>>it even matters... :o|
>
>Speaking as an artist... You may not be *able* to get a definative answer
>from who ever painted it. Not that he won't tell you, but that he might
>not know what type of skull it is either... it may have "just looked
>cool."
>
>~Tim
>
From talking a bit to Tom Baxa and Jeff Laubenstein at Gen Con, I'd have to
agree with you Tim.. Tom drew this really cool picture in the front of my
SR book that looks vaguely like some sort of evil spirit or horror or
something, but even he didn;t know what it was... He drew it cause he
thought it would look cool :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
---- in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Oh no! It... It can't be! IT'S MEAT HAIR!"
-Power Puff Girls
Message no. 172
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:19:48 -0500
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:03:25 EST Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM> writes:

>Speaking as an artist... You may not be *able* to get a definative
>answer
>from who ever painted it. Not that he won't tell you, but that he
>might not know what type of skull it is either... it may have "just
>looked cool."


Or the artist originally intended as the goat's skull, but FASA changed
it to a dragon's (or reasonably unidentifiable hybrid's) skull:) to avoid
possible repercussions from occult overtones in the game:) (some folks
are darn touchy about that stuff...)


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 173
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:09:41 -0800
At 10:19 PM 11/26/97, John E Pederson wrote:

>Or the artist originally intended as the goat's skull, but FASA changed
>it to a dragon's (or reasonably unidentifiable hybrid's) skull:) to avoid
>possible repercussions from occult overtones in the game:) (some folks
>are darn touchy about that stuff...)
>


Um, my only question is, why a goat? I mean, it could be interpreted as a
goat's skull, but what does that have to do with SR?

Just my .02 nuyen.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"HTML, the most fun you can have without a vowel."

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at www.lowephoto.com.

-
GC3.1 GCA$ d- s: a- C++++ U P L E? W+ N++ o K w-- O- M++$ V--
PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ y+
-
Message no. 174
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:20:41 -0500
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:09:41 -0800 "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
writes:

>Um, my only question is, why a goat? I mean, it could be interpreted
>as a
>goat's skull, but what does that have to do with SR?
>
>Just my .02 nuyen.


The occult significance, I would assume. It would reflect on the same
aspects of the game as it being a dragon's skull, though the occult link
is moce obvious that way, IMHO, especially to the mainstream:)


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 175
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:29:37 -0800
At 11:20 PM 11/26/97, John E Pederson wrote:
>>>Um, my only question is, why a goat?
>The occult significance, I would assume. It would reflect on the same
>aspects of the game as it being a dragon's skull, though the occult link
>is moce obvious that way, IMHO, especially to the mainstream:)

If the game was CoC, or Kult, or In Nomime, I'd be sold on the occult
theme, but IMO SR is really not that occult oriented. At least the way it's
written, the way we play, well, that's a different story ;)

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"HTML, the most fun you can have without a vowel."

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at www.lowephoto.com.

-
GC3.1 GCA$ d- s: a- C++++ U P L E? W+ N++ o K w-- O- M++$ V--
PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ y+
-
Message no. 176
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:23:28 -0800
I really couldn't care less if it were a woodchuck skull or dragon.

Anyone ever heard of Artistic license?

Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
> <ObSR>
> Maybe we should write up a bunch of similar "cautionary tales"
> to replace/supplement the FAQ. People would be more likely to
> read them, at least, and hopefully remember them.
> </ObSR>

Stop reading the FAQ secret handbook. (blatant ripoff from the FASA secret
handbook which I stole from Mike about a year or so ago. Too bad I couldn't
read anything but that one line...)

Cautionary tales, such as David', will be added to the ShadowRN FAQ page,
once I have the author's permissions.

Tim Cooper wroted:
> So, I'm wondering... I haven't read the FAQ recently but has the RN
> charter been expanded to include "Amature Writer's Corner" too?

Well, go read the FAQ again. :P

Actually way back when... <tolmwapper mode on> Thwaps and the like used to
be more entertaining, much like Gurth thwaps as of late. And it is only
appropriate that the tolmwappers act like oldsters and tell stories when
beaten into the ground subjects pop up. ;)

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
First High Priest of the Church of the Squooshy Ball.
FAQ Flunky of the SRcard and ShadowRN Mailing Lists
http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/shadowrn/srnfaq1.html <= Get it. Memorize!
Required Reading => http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/srtcg/tcgfaq1.html
Message no. 177
From: Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:04:39 +0100
At 11:25 1997-11-26 -0500, you wrote:
>Heh... It's a droat. So there:P

Hmmm... that should settle it... (yea, as if!)

Now, considering the amount of people on this list with too much spare time
on their hands; how long before someone comes up with some stats for named
creature?

:-P

/FL
Message no. 178
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:33:29 -0500
On Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 08:29:37PM -0800, David R. Lowe wrote:
> At 11:20 PM 11/26/97, John E Pederson wrote:
> >>>Um, my only question is, why a goat?
> >The occult significance, I would assume. It would reflect on the same
> >aspects of the game as it being a dragon's skull, though the occult link
> >is moce obvious that way, IMHO, especially to the mainstream:)
>
> If the game was CoC, or Kult, or In Nomime, I'd be sold on the occult
> theme, but IMO SR is really not that occult oriented. At least the way it's
> written, the way we play, well, that's a different story ;)
>
> D.
>
Just my take on this thread (since It's probably fairly old by now).
I thought of it as a goats skull, picked clean by devil rats. :)
That fits with SR.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 179
From: Mark Mains <mains@*********.NET>
Subject: Question?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:01:18 -0500
Hey all,
I was the person who posted the question on elemetal conjuration
(didn't think it would generate quite that much discussion). Anyway,
several people have referred to the (a source book I assume) BBB...what
is this? I have been racking my brain but can't figuere it out.

Thanks,
Mark
Message no. 180
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:11:37 -0500
>
> Hey all,
> I was the person who posted the question on elemetal conjuration
> (didn't think it would generate quite that much discussion). Anyway,
> several people have referred to the (a source book I assume) BBB...what
> is this? I have been racking my brain but can't figuere it out.
>
Main SR source book. i.e. Big Blue Book. (Or is it black) anyway....
check out the FAQ it gives abbreviations for alot of the books.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 181
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:26:41 -0500
At 06:01 AM 98-04-23 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey all,
> I was the person who posted the question on elemetal conjuration
>(didn't think it would generate quite that much discussion). Anyway,
>several people have referred to the (a source book I assume) BBB...what
>is this? I have been racking my brain but can't figuere it out.

The Big Black Book (i.e. the second editions rules).

SteveD
>
>Thanks,
>Mark
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 182
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:43:27 +0100
Mark Mains said on 6:01/23 Apr 98...

> Hey all,
> I was the person who posted the question on elemetal conjuration
> (didn't think it would generate quite that much discussion). Anyway,
> several people have referred to the (a source book I assume) BBB...what
> is this? I have been racking my brain but can't figuere it out.

It's a name for the SRII main rulebook, standing for Big Black Book,
because A) it's pretty big, B) it has a black cover, and C) it's a book
*grin*

It can also stand for Big Blue Book, in which case reference is made to
the first-edition SR main rules, which -- as I hope is obvious -- had a
blue cover.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's better to have loved and lost
Than to listen to an Olivia Newton John record
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 183
From: "Teff, Mike T" <mike.teff@**.MINNEAPOLIS.MN.US>
Subject: Question??
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:49:43 -0500
Ok, I have a simple question, that I have been unable to find the
answer to....

What exactly is harden armor, or where can I find the definition in a SR
Sourcebook?

Cutter
Message no. 184
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question??
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:56:11 -0600
Teff, Mike T wrote:
/
/ What exactly is harden armor, or where can I find the definition in a SR
/ Sourcebook?

Vehicle Armor, Critter Hardened Armor (usually magical, or just tougher
than hell), and Military Personal Armor (think science fiction battle
suits, except that they're unpowered).

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 185
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Question??
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:38:47 EDT
In a message dated 01/07/98 15:45:55 Central Daylight Time,
mike.teff@**.MINNEAPOLIS.MN.US writes:

> What exactly is harden armor, or where can I find the definition in a SR
> Sourcebook?

Try the Critters section of SRII

Nexx
"Stop me before I fish again!"
Message no. 186
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question??
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:42:19 +0100
Teff, Mike T said on 15:49/1 Jul 98,...

> What exactly is harden armor, or where can I find the definition in a SR
> Sourcebook?

Hardened armor is a critter power, explained on page 218 of
SRII. Essentially it gives the critter armor in the same way a
vehicle has armor (see p. 108, SRII): attacks with a Power Level
less than or equal to the armor rating bounce off, and the critter
adds one-half the armor rating to its Body dice to resist damage.

The term "hardened armor" is also used to refer to certain types
of body armor introduced in Fields of Fire (the military armors
and gel packs, to be precise). These don't function exactly like
vehicle armor, in that they don't add one-half the armor rating to
the character's Body, but attacks whose Power doesn't exceed the
armor rating cause no damage.

--
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Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 187
From: Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:28:22 -0600
How long before the old list is canceled?

Tony Rabiola
rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
(still working on the Fifth)
Proud owner BABY #972
Message no. 188
From: Mark A. Imbriaco mark.imbriaco@*****.com
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:00:06 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Tony Rabiola wrote:

> How long before the old list is canceled?

Probably a week or so .. I want to make sure this one is stable before
we do the switch. It would be annoying to have the machine die.

-Mark
Message no. 189
From: Lehlan Decker DeckerL@******.com
Subject: Question -Reply
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:37:45 -0500
Out of curiosity, what type of machine/software are we running on
now?


>>> "Mark A. Imbriaco" <mark.imbriaco@*****.com> 01/29/99
01:00pm >>>


On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Tony Rabiola wrote:

> How long before the old list is canceled?

Probably a week or so .. I want to make sure this one is stable
before
we do the switch. It would be annoying to have the machine die.

-Mark
Message no. 190
From: Mark A. Imbriaco mark.imbriaco@*****.com
Subject: Question -Reply
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:42:06 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Lehlan Decker wrote:

> Out of curiosity, what type of machine/software are we running on
> now?

The machine is a Cobalt RAQ. It's a MIPS based server designed for
colocation where space is at a premium. It runs Linux 2.0.34, has
64MB of RAM (probably needs an upgrade) and has about 10GB of disk
space. It's connected to the internet via a T1. More information on
this (really cool) little box is at http://www.cobaltnet.com/.

The listserv software that we're using is called Mailman. It's built
using the Python scripting language and is released free under the GPL.
It's pretty darned cool as well and info is at http://www.list.org/.

-Mark
Message no. 191
From: Jason Brown jbrown@***.net
Subject: Question
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:44:53 -0600
Hi, My wife and I are new to the game. She would like to play a shaman
with the phoenix totem. The problem is that one of the advantages is
that she would be able to conjure spirits of the great fiery firmanent.
This is in the Tir Na Nog book and I have been unable to find one.
Could somebody please tell me what this is and does.

Thanks,

Jason
jbrown@***.net
Message no. 192
From: Nexx Many-Scars nexx@********.net
Subject: Question
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:33:40 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Brown <jbrown@***.net>

> Hi, My wife and I are new to the game. She would like to play a shaman
> with the phoenix totem. The problem is that one of the advantages is
> that she would be able to conjure spirits of the great fiery firmanent.
> This is in the Tir Na Nog book and I have been unable to find one.
> Could somebody please tell me what this is and does.

Well, one option is to get Magic in the Shadows, the new magic book, which
has them. If you can't do that, go with salamanders from Paranormal
Animals of North America, or, barring that, switch around fire elementals a
bit, to make something _slightly_ different.

*****
Nexx Many-Scars
aka Mark Hall
*
Three hateful things in speech: stiffness, obscurity, a bad delivery.
*
http://members.aol.com/nexx3/index.html
-Last Update: 2-5-99
Message no. 193
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Question
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:44:37 -0700
At 09:44 PM 11/05/99 , Jason Brown annoyed me by writing:
>Hi, My wife and I are new to the game. She would like to play a shaman
>with the phoenix totem. The problem is that one of the advantages is
>that she would be able to conjure spirits of the great fiery firmanent.
>This is in the Tir Na Nog book and I have been unable to find one.
>Could somebody please tell me what this is and does.

If you can get your hands on Magic in the Shadows, (if you play SR3 rules)
there is in there descriptions of the remainder of spirit types that don't
appear in the SR3 main book.

--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
SRFanFic's Keeper of the Rabid Woodchuck!
Current challenge: From the Point of View of an Inanimate Object.
Message no. 194
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Question
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:51:21 -0400
At 11:44 PM 5/11/99 , Jason Brown wrote:
>Hi, My wife and I are new to the game. She would like to play a shaman
>with the phoenix totem. The problem is that one of the advantages is
>that she would be able to conjure spirits of the great fiery firmanent.
>This is in the Tir Na Nog book and I have been unable to find one.
>Could somebody please tell me what this is and does.

There's a good description of Phoenix totem in MITS, along with a
description of the new elemental spirits. A phoenix shaman can summon a
fire spirit, which is also called a salamander or spirit of the great fiery
firmament.

Also, I think that there is a copy of Tir na Nog in my local gaming shop if
you were interested in it.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 195
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Question
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:57:47 EDT
In a message dated 5/11/1999 10:39:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
jbrown@***.net writes:

>
> Hi, My wife and I are new to the game. She would like to play a shaman
> with the phoenix totem. The problem is that one of the advantages is
> that she would be able to conjure spirits of the great fiery firmanent.
> This is in the Tir Na Nog book and I have been unable to find one.
> Could somebody please tell me what this is and does.
>
> Thanks,

IF you get the new Magic in the Shadows (MitS) book, the rules for such are
in there as well. The Spirits are also considered "Salamanders", and work
just as well.

-K
Message no. 196
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Question
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:51:35 -0500
On Tue, 11 May 1999 21:44:53 -0600 Jason Brown <jbrown@***.net> writes:
>Hi, My wife and I are new to the game. She would like to play a shaman
>with the phoenix totem. The problem is that one of the advantages is
>that she would be able to conjure spirits of the great fiery firmanent.
>This is in the Tir Na Nog book and I have been unable to find one.
>Could somebody please tell me what this is and does.

Options:
1) Pick up Magic in the Shadows (Spirits of the Fiery Firmament are now
Salamanders).
2) Treat spirits of the fiery firmament as fire elementals (for domain:
you must be near something hot ... fire, hot tin roff, etc)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears


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Message no. 197
From: Zarcon zarcon@*****.com
Subject: question
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 17:11:07 -0500
what does MitS stand for? im asuming its one of the new books that i havent
gotten yet (havent goten anything since rigger 2 came out)

Zarcon the 6th
Message no. 198
From: NEWSHADOW@***.com NEWSHADOW@***.com
Subject: question
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:23:12 EDT
In a message dated 5/16/99 3:01:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zarcon@*****.com
writes:

> what does MitS stand for? im asuming its one of the new books that i havent
> gotten yet (havent goten anything since rigger 2 came out)

Magic in the Shadows.

-NewShadow
Message no. 199
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: question
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:25:58 EDT
In a message dated 5/16/99 6:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zarcon@*****.com
writes:

> what does MitS stand for? im asuming its one of the new books that i havent
> gotten yet (havent goten anything since rigger 2 came out)
>
> Zarcon the 6th

MitS = "Magic in the Shadows." The replacement for the Grimoire and
Awakenings.

And, chummer ... NOTHING SINCE RIGGER TWO???

Chum-pal ... they gots a hole new EDITION ... SR3 ... so, what're ya WAITING
for? GO GET IT!

:-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 200
From: Trunks Ryuko kawaii@********.org
Subject: question
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:53:49 -0400 (EDT)
On Sun, 16 May 1999, Zarcon wrote:

> what does MitS stand for? im asuming its one of the new books that i havent
> gotten yet (havent goten anything since rigger 2 came out)
>
> Zarcon the 6th
>
>
>
>
Magic in the Shadows (MitS)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 201
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: question
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:17:52 +0100 (BST)
And verily, didst Zarcon hastily scribble thusly...
|
|what does MitS stand for? im asuming its one of the new books that i havent
|gotten yet (havent goten anything since rigger 2 came out)

Magic in the Shadows...
(A sort of Grimoire 3rd Edition++)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 202
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:56:21 -0800 (PST)
Could someone point me to the reference that makes it harder for magicians to deck.
One of my players challenged me on this and I wasn't able to find it at the time...
Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place? Thanks for any help you can give me.

Zebulin

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
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Message no. 203
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:26:59 -0700
At 13:56 12/2/99 -0800, Zebulin Magby wrote:
>Could someone point me to the reference that makes it harder for magicians
>to deck.
>One of my players challenged me on this and I wasn't able to find it at the
>time...
>Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place? Thanks for any help you can
>give me.

Virtual Realities 1.

I don't think it's been repeated in a non-novel product since then.

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
< ICQ# 2350330 / ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
Message no. 204
From: NightRain nightrain@***.com.au
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:56:15 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.html.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: Question!


> At 13:56 12/2/99 -0800, Zebulin Magby wrote:
> >Could someone point me to the reference that makes it harder for
magicians
> >to deck.
> >One of my players challenged me on this and I wasn't able to find it at
the
> >time...
> >Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place? Thanks for any help you
can
> >give me.
>
> Virtual Realities 1.
>
> I don't think it's been repeated in a non-novel product since then.

p 31 MitS specifically brings this up, and it mentions no penalties at
all...

NightRain.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Message no. 205
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 00:42:58 EST
In a message dated 12/2/99 5:28:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
adamj@*********.html.com writes:

> >Could someone point me to the reference that makes it harder for magicians
> >to deck.
> >One of my players challenged me on this and I wasn't able to find it at
> the
> >time...
> >Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place? Thanks for any help you
can
> >give me.
>
> Virtual Realities 1.
>
> I don't think it's been repeated in a non-novel product since then.
>
> Adam
> --


It was a TN equal to your Magic Att to all decking tests, IIRC. I don't
believe it still applies anymore (canon-wise), but it is a good way to
enforce the universe standard (for those who give a damn about continuity).





-Twist

"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."
Message no. 206
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:58:21 +0100
According to Zebulin Magby, at 13:56 on 2 Dec 99, the word on the street
was...

> Could someone point me to the reference that makes it harder for
> magicians to deck. One of my players challenged me on this and I wasn't
> able to find it at the time... Maybe I'm just not looking in the right
> place? Thanks for any help you can give me.

That rule was in Virtual Realities (1.0), page 52. Since it didn't appear
in any later rulebook concerning either magic or the Matrix, it's probably
safe to assume the rule is now defunct, and magicians can deck just as
well as anyone else can.

Anyway, if you want to still use it, the rule says you add the character's
Magic rating or Sorcery skill (GM's decision, though it should be the same
for every character) to all decking target numbers.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 207
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 08:21:07 -0500
At 01:56 PM 12/3/99 +1000, NightRain posited:
> > At 13:56 12/2/99 -0800, Zebulin Magby wrote:
> > >Could someone point me to the reference that makes it harder for
>magicians
> > >to deck.
> > >One of my players challenged me on this and I wasn't able to find it at
>the
> > >time...
> > >Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place? Thanks for any help you
>can
> > >give me.
> >
> > Virtual Realities 1.
> >
> > I don't think it's been repeated in a non-novel product since then.
>
>p 31 MitS specifically brings this up, and it mentions no penalties at
>all...
>
>NightRain.

Try the Companion. There is an Flaw called Simsense Vertigo that increases
target numbers while in the Matrix. Seems like a good Flaw for your decking
mage to take.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 208
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:54:27 +0100
According to Sommers, at 8:21 on 3 Dec 99, the word on the street was...

> Try the Companion. There is an Flaw called Simsense Vertigo that increases
> target numbers while in the Matrix. Seems like a good Flaw for your decking
> mage to take.

I call that a _bad_ flaw for a decking mage to take :) Simsense vertigo
can happen to everyone, not just magicians, and I don't think you should
automatically say, "This is a mage with a cyberdeck, so take Simsense
Vertigo to avoid it being a munchkin character"...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 209
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:01:51 -0600 (CST)
Today, Gurth spoke on Re: Question!:

> According to Sommers, at 8:21 on 3 Dec 99, the word on the street was...

> > Try the Companion. There is an Flaw called Simsense Vertigo that increases
> > target numbers while in the Matrix. Seems like a good Flaw for your decking
> > mage to take.

> I call that a _bad_ flaw for a decking mage to take :) Simsense vertigo
> can happen to everyone, not just magicians, and I don't think you should
> automatically say, "This is a mage with a cyberdeck, so take Simsense
> Vertigo to avoid it being a munchkin character"...

Right, it's not like you are going ot be able to use Magic in the 'trix.
There aren't even that many spells that can help a decker, Increase
Intellegence... ? There are a few things that have to be set down before
hand so you know how to handle them, etc. Mainly when a decker is running
above tortise speeds his normal sences are completely impeded(sp?), does
this effect a Mages' Astral Perception? etc.

In my mind, it's very clear how the 'trix and magic work (or rather don't
work) together. It would be nice to some some very clear cannon on what
happens, for example. If a decker starts astrally percieveing. We knoe
they aren't going to see the 'Astral Martix' and they certaintly can't
read auras of icons... but it Astral Preception even possible? Is that
part of the mage's "normal senses" stopped? Can a mage even attempt to
project? If he does, what happens to the matrix connection? Dumb shock?
etc. etc.

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984
Message no. 210
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:05:56 -0500
At 06:54 PM 12/3/99 +0100, Gurth posited:
>According to Sommers, at 8:21 on 3 Dec 99, the word on the street was...
>
> > Try the Companion. There is an Flaw called Simsense Vertigo that increases
> > target numbers while in the Matrix. Seems like a good Flaw for your
> decking
> > mage to take.
>
>I call that a _bad_ flaw for a decking mage to take :) Simsense vertigo
>can happen to everyone, not just magicians, and I don't think you should
>automatically say, "This is a mage with a cyberdeck, so take Simsense
>Vertigo to avoid it being a munchkin character"...

No, but its one of those Flaws that has a built-in explanation, as opposed
to just taking it for the points.

"Well, my ex-wagemage does do some decking, since its was required at the
corp he used to work for. But he doesn't like to do it much, since it
always gives him such terrible headaches. Can't see straight for a few
minutes afterwards."

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 211
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:22:07 -0500
At 12:01 PM 12/3/99 -0600, Da Twink Daddy posited:
>In my mind, it's very clear how the 'trix and magic work (or rather don't
>work) together. It would be nice to some some very clear cannon on what
>happens, for example. If a decker starts astrally percieveing. We knoe
>they aren't going to see the 'Astral Martix' and they certaintly can't
>read auras of icons... but it Astral Preception even possible? Is that
>part of the mage's "normal senses" stopped? Can a mage even attempt to
>project? If he does, what happens to the matrix connection? Dumb shock?
>etc. etc.

I'm pretty sure there were some concrete examples given in R2 for what
happens when you try Perceive or Project while your're rigging. Since both
rigging and decking involve changing your normal sensory input for
simsense, it makes sense to use the same rules.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 212
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:11:17 EST
In a message dated 12/3/99 1:02:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
datwinkdaddy@*******.com writes:

> In my mind, it's very clear how the 'trix and magic work (or rather don't
> work) together.

Back when speculation was going around as to what the Deep Resonance really
was (before Psychotrope), I got around to one of my old conspiracy theories
about the matrix and magic.

Specifically, nature spirits. The memory cores in SR are made out of this
bacteria (the name was in ShadowTech and Dunk's Secrets for those
interested). So memory where computer programs reside (even one as complex
as Deus) is alive. It makes you wonder if it might be a domain suitable for
conjuring a nature spirit. Or, if you could summon a great form nature
spirit and send it into the memory core. Such a spirit wouldn't be able to
leave the confines of the memory (crossing fiber optics would be messy, hence
why Psychotrope tried the "light spirit" idea as a rumor instead of another
class). Yet, Deus can't leave the SCIRE either, and look at the trouble he's
caused.

I don't think we should actually have spirits in the Matrix for SR, but I
wonder if it would be possible.






-Twist
"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."
Message no. 213
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:16:47 EST
> We knoe
> >they aren't going to see the 'Astral Martix' and they certaintly can't
> >read auras of icons... but it Astral Preception even possible?


It's really not. You're being fed simsense into your brain, which code from
a computer converted into senses. You can't perceive through a TV screen
(for cameras), nor into the matrix. Both are electronic imitations of life.








-Twist
"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."
Message no. 214
From: David Cordy david.cordy@****.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:24:17 -0800
Twist replied to someone I can't recall:
> > We knoe
> > >they aren't going to see the 'Astral Martix' and they certaintly can't
> > >read auras of icons... but it Astral Preception even possible?
>
>
> It's really not. You're being fed simsense into your brain, which code
> from
> a computer converted into senses. You can't perceive through a TV screen
>
> (for cameras), nor into the matrix. Both are electronic imitations of
> life.
>
To clarify this, a mage can not astrally perceive anything in the Matrix if
he is connected. But he can Astrally perceive the 'real world' as if he was
not connected. My understanding is that when the mage projects his matrix
icon stops, or continues with the last command, can't remember which. I
thought that this was covered somewhere in MiTS, but I can't recall for
sure. Can anyone back me up on this? Please...

David
Message no. 215
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:34:46 EST
In a message dated 12/3/99 3:31:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
david.cordy@****.com writes:

> To clarify this, a mage can not astrally perceive anything in the Matrix if
> he is connected. But he can Astrally perceive the 'real world' as if he
was
> not connected.


The RAS makes this incredibly difficult, IIRC.






-Twist

"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."
Message no. 216
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:41:32 -0600 (CST)
Today, Twist0059@***.com spoke on Re: Question!:

> It's really not. You're being fed simsense into your brain, which code from
> a computer converted into senses. You can't perceive through a TV screen
> (for cameras), nor into the matrix. Both are electronic imitations of life.

I didn't mena into the Matrix (Hrm, thought I made that clear) I mean,
jack in, the percieve to see what you meatbod is doing... Or if you are a
masachist, jack in, project, take dump shock (?), then w/e.


Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984
Message no. 217
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:48:36 EST
In a message dated 12/3/99 4:42:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
datwinkdaddy@*******.com writes:

> > It's really not. You're being fed simsense into your brain, which code
> from
> > a computer converted into senses. You can't perceive through a TV
screen
>
> > (for cameras), nor into the matrix. Both are electronic imitations of
> life.
>
> I didn't mena into the Matrix (Hrm, thought I made that clear) I mean,
> jack in, the percieve to see what you meatbod is doing...


Ah, then I guess you could. Dodger in SoP could open his eyes while decking
and look at the meat world. The RAS system would still mess you up for
perception, though. You could perceive, but it would be messy.






-Twist
"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."
Message no. 218
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Question!
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 20:51:57 -0200
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:11:17 EST
Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/3/99 1:02:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> datwinkdaddy@*******.com writes:
>
> > In my mind, it's very clear how the 'trix and magic work (or rather don't
> > work) together.
>
> Back when speculation was going around as to what the Deep Resonance really
> was (before Psychotrope), I got around to one of my old conspiracy theories
> about the matrix and magic.
>
> Specifically, nature spirits. The memory cores in SR are made out of this
> bacteria (the name was in ShadowTech and Dunk's Secrets for those
> interested).

They're not made from bacteria, but from a protein produced by
bacteria, which is then extracted. It's not alive, then.

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 219
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question!
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:45:53 +0100
According to Sommers, at 13:05 on 3 Dec 99, the word on the street was...

> No, but its one of those Flaws that has a built-in explanation, as opposed
> to just taking it for the points.

That is true, though what I was saying is that it shouldn't be made
mandatory for magicians to take this flaw just because they may do some
decking from time to time. If you do want magicians to get a penalty in
the Matrix, it would be better to simply introduce a rule like in VR 1.0
that gives all of them a penalty, instead of basing it on an existing flaw
-- if only because otherwise all PC magicians will want that flaw, because
"I'm not going to do any decking anyway, and I could use the points."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 220
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Question!
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 14:49:16 -0500
At 05:45 AM 12/4/99 , Gurth wrote:
>According to Sommers, at 13:05 on 3 Dec 99, the word on the street was...
>
> > No, but its one of those Flaws that has a built-in explanation, as opposed
> > to just taking it for the points.
>
>That is true, though what I was saying is that it shouldn't be made
>mandatory for magicians to take this flaw just because they may do some
>decking from time to time. If you do want magicians to get a penalty in
>the Matrix, it would be better to simply introduce a rule like in VR 1.0
>that gives all of them a penalty, instead of basing it on an existing flaw
>-- if only because otherwise all PC magicians will want that flaw, because
>"I'm not going to do any decking anyway, and I could use the points."

Sorry, I agree with you that it shouldn't be mandatory. It should always be
a choice.

You might also say that a mage can only take it if he gets a datajack.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 221
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question!
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:17:16 +0100
According to Sommers, at 14:49 on 7 Dec 99, the word on the street was...

[Simsense Vertigo flaw]
> You might also say that a mage can only take it if he gets a datajack.

Again, I have to ask: why? Simsense can be experienced through many more
ways than just a datajack -- electrode headsets are more common than
datajacks, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 222
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Question
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:16:10 -0600
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?

::pre-emptively hides beneath the stairs::

***
Skald-Mark Mjöksiglandi
a.k.a. Nexx
a.k.a. Mark Hall
***
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no
light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I
will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them
to you."
-Henry Rollins
***
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
Updated December 6th, 2000
Message no. 223
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Question
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:33:05 -0500
Nexx wrote:
>
> Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
> materiari?
>
> ::pre-emptively hides beneath the stairs::

How much time did you spend on this????


--
Iridios
--
Discordianism: Where reality is a figment of your imagination

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.nbci.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
10:28:58 PM/243:00:04 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 224
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Question
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:32:06 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iridios"

> > Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam
possit
> > materiari?
> >
> > ::pre-emptively hides beneath the stairs::
>
> How much time did you spend on this????

::shouts through the door:: None, actually... someone sent it over my
Fading Suns list, along with:

eheu, ardeo.

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane
mittam.

Non sum pisces.
.
Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est.

Quid est illa in auqua?

Pistrix! Pistrix!

Feles mala! Cur cista non uteris? Stramentum novum in ea posui.

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur
ad necem.
Message no. 225
From: Spike spike1@*******.co.uk
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 03:39:54 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, didst Nexx babble thusly...
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
> materiari?

This calls for a megaTHWAP of epic proportions...
Now... Where did I put it?


.

.

.


Falling object----->o


o



o



o
|
|
| Direction of
| fall...
o |
|
|
V

*





*





(*)






(*)







thwap









thwap










THWAP











..... . . . . . . ..
. ... . . . ... ..'
. . . . . . . .





















##### # # # # ## #####
# # # # # # # # #
# ###### # # # # # #
# # # # ## # ###### #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# # # # # # # #

@
|
---- <====== Nexx....
/\
/ |



> ::pre-emptively hides beneath the stairs::

Too late...
I turned the shields off.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 226
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Question
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:08:51 -0600
From: Nexx
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 9:18 PM

> Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax
> materiam possit materiari?

Die, damn you; die, and die again.
Message no. 227
From: Ryan "uR|Uller" Myers rmyers@**.edu
Subject: Question
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:46:47 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nexx" <nexx@********.net>
To: "ShadowRN" <ShadowRN@*********.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 7:16 PM
Subject: Question


> Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
> materiari?
>
> ::pre-emptively hides beneath the stairs::

Forget the orbital cow bombardment - may you be condemned in your afterlife
to wander a scorched wasteland marked only by burning piles of 2400 baud
Hayes-compatibles.

-Ryan "uR|Uller" Myers <borisian@***********.com>

An infinite number of monkeys, given an infinite amount of time, will
produce the collected works of Shakespeare. John Romero's Daikatana was a
five minute, ten monkey job.

> ***
> Skald-Mark Mjöksiglandi
> a.k.a. Nexx
> a.k.a. Mark Hall
> ***
> "If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight,
no
> light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls.
I
> will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring
them
> to you."
> -Henry Rollins
> ***
> http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
> Updated December 6th, 2000
>
>
>
>
Message no. 228
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 05:35:38 EST
In a message dated 12/14/00 8:14:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pgoodman13@************.com writes:

> Die, damn you; die, and die again.
>

But before we kill him...What the heck did he say?

Cash
Message no. 229
From: Phaedyme xenya@********.com
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 03:03:19 -0800
GuayII@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/14/00 8:14:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> pgoodman13@************.com writes:
>
> > Die, damn you; die, and die again.
> >
>
> But before we kill him...What the heck did he say?

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

--
Watch This Space | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Nil Illegitimum Carborundum." | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 230
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 03:30:16 -0800
From: GuayII@***.com

> But before we kill him...What the heck did he say?

I say just one word: "Woodchuck", you figure out the rest :).

Time to activate the orbital Thor Carps again I say!

Martin
Message no. 231
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:33:55 +1100
Hmm, I thought. That's Latin. Lets find an online translating service. So
off to Yahoo I go and search on Translation and Latin.

http://www.well.com/user/earl/Ible-bay.html

Sombody has translated the Bible into Pig Latin. Honest to Od-Gay



Annachie

------------------------------------------------

-----If the women folk don't find you handsom, they should at least find you
handy
Message no. 232
From: Sinabian@***.com Sinabian@***.com
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:02:04 EST
Oh sweet Jaysus, we're being invaded by shadowrunning Latin woodchucks!
Message no. 233
From: Spike spike1@*******.co.uk
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:15:30 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, didst Sinabian@***.com babble thusly...
[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> Oh sweet Jaysus, we're being invaded by shadowrunning Latin woodchucks!
>
>

And not for the first time.
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 234
From: Matthew Resnick elwoodresnick@*****.com
Subject: Question
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:57:50 -0800 (PST)
*delurks*

*tosses anti stairs grenade*

*relurks*

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Message no. 235
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alex Case)
Subject: Question
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:50:01 2001
I have run into a great deal of writers block. So bad that I'm stuck basing
adventures off of missions from Grand Theft Auto 3 (the one with the most
plot of the 3). So, I'm wondering, what kind of skill checks would be
involved in stealing an unoccupied car with no keys in the ignition (no, I
haven't seen "Gone in 60 Seconds" and since my library fine has topped $10,
I'm unable to check out the movie. I also don't have a Blockbuster/Hollywood
Video rental card).
Message no. 236
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Question
Date: Fri Nov 16 01:40:01 2001
> I have run into a great deal of writers block. So bad that I'm stuck
basing
> adventures off of missions from Grand Theft Auto 3 (the one with the most
> plot of the 3). So, I'm wondering, what kind of skill checks would be
> involved in stealing an unoccupied car with no keys in the ignition (no, I
> haven't seen "Gone in 60 Seconds" and since my library fine has topped
$10,
> I'm unable to check out the movie. I also don't have a
Blockbuster/Hollywood
> Video rental card).
>

Electronics skill and maybe the computer skill if the vehicle is
computerized. These would be to start the thing, to get into the car itself
would most likely require a specialized stealth skill (ie theft, lock
picking etc)

The latter would not be necessary if you didn't care about condition, in
such case a big rock through the driver side window would do just as well.
Message no. 237
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sven)
Subject: Question
Date: Fri Nov 16 04:15:01 2001
Alex Case wrote:

<snip>
> plot of the 3). So, I'm wondering, what kind of skill checks would be
> involved in stealing an unoccupied car with no keys in the
> ignition (no, I
<snip>

I usually have my players roll an electronics skill, since I think most cars
would have some kind of maglock/electronic lock to pick.

On the other hand I'd also allow a car(B/R) skill test, after all if you
know how to build them you also know the faults and flaws to circumvent
security.

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 238
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Robert Manning)
Subject: Question
Date: Fri Nov 16 07:15:01 2001
At 01:42 AM 11/16/01, you wrote:
> > I have run into a great deal of writers block. So bad that I'm stuck
>basing
> > adventures off of missions from Grand Theft Auto 3 (the one with the most
> > plot of the 3). So, I'm wondering, what kind of skill checks would be
> > involved in stealing an unoccupied car with no keys in the ignition (no, I
> > haven't seen "Gone in 60 Seconds" and since my library fine has topped
>$10,
> > I'm unable to check out the movie. I also don't have a
>Blockbuster/Hollywood
> > Video rental card).
> >
>
>Electronics skill and maybe the computer skill if the vehicle is
>computerized. These would be to start the thing, to get into the car itself
>would most likely require a specialized stealth skill (ie theft, lock
>picking etc)
>
>The latter would not be necessary if you didn't care about condition, in
>such case a big rock through the driver side window would do just as well.


There's a section on this subject in Rigger 3 on page 12. There
are standard maglocks on the doors and ignition, in addition to any actual
security system. Just use the standard rules for defeating maglocks (SR3
p. 235-236) which involves electronics, electronics B/R, and possibly some
special gear like maglock passkeys.

archangel@*********.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12 (Decipher at http://www.geekcode.com/ )
GU d- s+: a22? C++ UL P L+ E(----) W+ N++ o? K? w(---) O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+
PGP? t-- 5 X+ R+ tv b++(+++) DI++++ D++ G e h(--) !r y-
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h b++(1/2) B UB !IE RN- LST !W dk+ sa+++ ma++
sh+ ad++ ri++ mc+++ rk-- m+ gm+ M- P
--
Message no. 239
From: shadowrn@*********.com (waylex)
Subject: Question
Date: Fri Nov 16 11:05:01 2001
> There's a section on this subject in Rigger 3 on page 12. There
> are standard maglocks on the doors and ignition, in addition to any actual
> security system. Just use the standard rules for defeating maglocks (SR3
> p. 235-236) which involves electronics, electronics B/R, and possibly some
> special gear like maglock passkeys.

All legal cars are connected to a grid guide system so they can easily be
traced by the star or whoever by sensors along the way, so if they're going
to be GTAing their way around a town they be clocked by a drone and they're
never getting away as the grid guide will track them to within a block with
ease. Of course they'r enot very good (flux 1 or something IIRC) so even a
headware radio can jame them I think, electronic warfare will be required,
or they could just disable it, something I suspect would not be very easy as
otherwise there'd be no point in having them. This is all detailed in rigger
3 as mention by a guy above.
Message no. 240
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Question
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:05:01 2001
On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 07:14:34 -0500
Robert Manning <archangel@*********.com> wrote:
> At 01:42 AM 11/16/01, you wrote:
> > > I have run into a great deal of writers block. So bad
> that I'm stuck
> >
> >Electronics skill and maybe the computer skill if the
> vehicle is
> >computerized. These would be to start the thing, to get
> into the car itself
> >would most likely require a specialized stealth skill
> (ie theft, lock
> >picking etc)

...

>
> There's a section on this subject in Rigger 3 on
> page 12. There
> are standard maglocks on the doors and ignition, in
> addition to any actual
> security system. Just use the standard rules for
> defeating maglocks (SR3
> p. 235-236) which involves electronics, electronics B/R,
> and possibly some
> special gear like maglock passkeys.
>

And don't forget the security systems you just mentioned,
there are skills to deal with them, too.
More creative boosters could probably make use of
specialised skills such as city knowledge, Orc underground
lore, gang lore, who knows what, just to make the adventure
interesting and to screw up the GM.

--Anders
Message no. 241
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Greg York)
Subject: Question
Date: Sat Nov 17 15:30:01 2001
Every car made in 2060 comes with an ID chip with a kill switch which can be
activated by Lone Star to stop would be car thiefs in their tracks. If you
are jacking a car in a A neighbourhood or higher then this chip will have to
be dealt with. Removing the chip is fairly easy its just a matter of doing
the appropriate B/R skill or Electronics skill but this will cause your car
to show up on gridlink as a rogue unregistered vehicle worthy of police
attention. If you replace the chip it is a lot like building a fake ID chip
and how good it is will depend on the neighbourhood you are driving through.
Alternatively you could just jump into the car and race to a Z
neighbourhood before the owner has a chance to call the cops. The rest of
the electronic security system stuff is pretty straight forward. I like to
use an electronic shock system as a deterent. These are fairly affordable
for the average consumer up to a rating of 6 and deliver a 10S Stun shock to
car thiefs who fail their roll to disable it. You can also find some nasty
lethal systems but the legality of these is in question. If the runner were
to accidently try to steal a Mafia or Yakuza boss car he might be in for a
nasty suprise. Rigger vehicles may also have drone or robot brains which
means they can use sensor tests to spot possible theft and may act according
to their programing whether aggressive or defensive.

Coyote
Custom Modifications Made to Order


>From: "Alex Case" <acecase@****.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: "Shadowrun Dumpshock List" <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: Question
>Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:45:03 -0800
>
>I have run into a great deal of writers block. So bad that I'm stuck basing
>adventures off of missions from Grand Theft Auto 3 (the one with the most
>plot of the 3). So, I'm wondering, what kind of skill checks would be
>involved in stealing an unoccupied car with no keys in the ignition (no, I
>haven't seen "Gone in 60 Seconds" and since my library fine has topped $10,
>I'm unable to check out the movie. I also don't have a
>Blockbuster/Hollywood
>Video rental card).
>
>


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