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From:	Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject:	Question 2: Diceless SR
Date:	Tue, 26 Oct 1993 11:16:09 -0400

Message no. 1 First off, I have never played Amber, but I know a bit (very little) about
how the diceless concept works.

The concept, for SR Diceless, might work something like this:

When the players or GM have a need to roll dice, they can, instead,
draw points out of a refreshing pool. These points translate directly
into dice results. Ex: Say every 1 on a die is a point, except a 1
which is free. So to get a 4 on a die I have to take 4 points out
of the pool. (The actually numbers should be based on probabilities
with the average roll being some fixed number). Each players point pool
would be actually a combination of Karma Pool and experience. The GMs
pool for NPCs and Critters would be a combination of threat and professional
ratings. The pool should refresh in the same way as the Karma Pool, but
for everyone, including the NPCs and Critters. Perhaps even additional
dice could be bought with points.

The actual points and methodologies are still in development in my head.
Great care must be taken to assure that the munchkins can not rape this.

The advantages: As with Amber, this allows the GM and players to have
the ultimate control over their characters and to actually allow the story
to unfold the way they want it. Almost like interactive storytelling, with
the GM and the players, working to make it all come out balanced. (Because
running out of points in the pool means you fail at everything.)

The disadvtantages: For the GM determining when the pool refreshes would
be critical. Great care would have to be taken. Too often and the scene
is way too easy. Too slowly and the scene is way too hard. Also knowing
before the test if the test succeeds is may not work with all players.
So some more thought must go into how to work this, so that these players
can still have the sense of not knowing. (Can be done by changing Target
Numbers around and/or not telling them final Target Numbers).

The whole thing that motivates the diceless concept is the idea that the
story is really already told and that all the characters do is live it. For
SR, a game where Magic flows through everything and effects everything,
this concept may work.

Any constructive comments welcome and encouraged.

-- Quiktek
-- Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Question 2: Diceless SR
Date:	Wed, 27 Oct 1993 01:51:43 GMT

Message no. 2 >The advantages: As with Amber, this allows the GM and players to have
>the ultimate control over their characters and to actually allow the story
>to unfold the way they want it. Almost like interactive storytelling, with
>the GM and the players, working to make it all come out balanced. (Because
>running out of points in the pool means you fail at everything.)

Role-playing games were interactive games long before CDI and other latter-day
gizmos. I don't think the mechanics are nearly as important as the storytelling.
A lot of the players I've met in the past few years considered themselves
role-players but still number-crunched their characters and opposition. As a
GM, I used to make up rules on the spot if I couldn't find an applicable one
within a couple of minutes. I also fudge die rolls, retroactively place
items if I realize they would have logically been elsewhere in the first place,
and other 'cheating'-as long as it's invisible to my players. They all knew I
did this, but they couldn't tell WHEN. I am an expert in driving the GM Fiat.

>The disadvtantages: For the GM determining when the pool refreshes would
>be critical. Great care would have to be taken. Too often and the scene
>is way too easy. Too slowly and the scene is way too hard. Also knowing
>before the test if the test succeeds is may not work with all players.
>So some more thought must go into how to work this, so that these players
>can still have the sense of not knowing. (Can be done by changing Target
>Numbers around and/or not telling them final Target Numbers).

NEVER tell them the target numbers or mods if you can avoid it.
Sounds like the same trouble you have in a dice system: How tough to make
the scenario; what numbers to use.

>The whole thing that motivates the diceless concept is the idea that the
>story is really already told and that all the characters do is live it. For
>SR, a game where Magic flows through everything and effects everything,
>this concept may work.

Ah, fate vs Free Will. . .a subject I will gladly let pass if other do.

J Roberson

From:	Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Question 2: Diceless SR
Date:	Wed, 27 Oct 1993 09:47:15 -0400

Message no. 3 >From J:
> Role-playing games were interactive games long before CDI and other latter-day
> gizmos. I don't think the mechanics are nearly as important as the
storytelling.
> A lot of the players I've met in the past few years considered themselves
> role-players but still number-crunched their characters and opposition. As a
> GM, I used to make up rules on the spot if I couldn't find an applicable one
> within a couple of minutes. I also fudge die rolls, retroactively place
> items if I realize they would have logically been elsewhere in the first
place,
> and other 'cheating'-as long as it's invisible to my players. They all knew I
> did this, but they couldn't tell WHEN. I am an expert in driving the GM Fiat.

What I mean is more along the lines of the "Interactive Storytelling" common
in the White Wolf Storyteller line. Or some games which are nothing but
story, no dice. Every GM, if they are any good, can manipulate the PCs so
that they don't know they are being manipulated and make the story come
out their way. But what I was saying is allowing the GM to do this along
with the players in a fashion where everything has a price.

> NEVER tell them the target numbers or mods if you can avoid it.
> Sounds like the same trouble you have in a dice system: How tough to make
> the scenario; what numbers to use.

Very true. But with this diceless concept it becomes much more important
to make sure that the points are enough.

> Ah, fate vs Free Will. . .a subject I will gladly let pass if other do.

Gladly. After two semesters of advanced philosophy I am no closer to that
answer than I was before.

-- Quiktek
-- Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu

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