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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Question about Astral Projection ("Manifestation")
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:04:34 -0400
This question has been bugging me for a little while now, and I can't seem
to settle on a satisfactory solution.

When a Mage (read: Hermetic or Shamanic) astrally projects, he/she can
make him/herself apparent on the physical plane. By doing so, he/she
becomes a ghost-like image to the physical world. (I hate to use the word
"Manifest" in this instance, because it has too many connotations.)

Now, here is my quandry:

On the Astral plane, there are none of the five senses used on the physical
plane. Instead, there is a 6th sense that is not tied to any part of the
physical body - it is tied to the aura. Thus, on the Astral plane, a Mage
cannot hear, see, taste, smell, or touch anything per se. It is a less
tangible sense. Words cannot be made out, but the emotion of the writing
can be felt (moreso if handwritten rather than typed, etc.). Music cannot
be heard, but the emotional content can be felt, etc.

Well, when a Mage makes him/herself apparent to the physical world while
Astrally Projecting, he/she is able to communicate with those present in
the physical. What I don't get is how is the Mage able to do this?

After all, you have to have assensed the aura of someone in order to find
them in the first place (unless you are using ritual sorcery). This is
fine...say you have assensed the individual you wish to communicate with.
You then locate this person and appear in their presence. You are still
using your astral perception, not your physical senses (since you have no
physical senses). However, you can't hear in the Astral Plane. Just like
you can't read in the Astral Plane. Thus, it seems there is an
inconsistency here. You can't make yourself apparent in the physical plane
to read a street sign, so how can you talk to someone and understand what
they are saying?

I would appreciate any suggestions to help clarify this issue. At this
point, it seems to be an inconsistency. However, I hope to logically
explain this or change the house rules to incorporate what can really take
place when a Mage makes him/herself apparent on the physical.

Thanks,

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Question about Astral Projection ("Manifestation")
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:52:32 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 3:04/20 May 97...

> You are still using your astral perception, not your physical senses
> (since you have no physical senses). However, you can't hear in the
> Astral Plane.

You can hear on the astral plane, except for non-natural (recorded or
amplified) sounds. For example, take a record player, put a record on, and
turn the volume all the way down. That's what an astral magician would
hear of that record: the sound made by the needle going through the
groove, instead of the amplified sound you'd hear with the volume turned
up. This same way, an astral magician can hear someone speaking directly
to him/her; but if that same person is speaking through a telephone and
the magician is on the other end, he or she would hear no sound.

> Just like you can't read in the Astral Plane.

You can't read texts because they're essentially the same as recorded
sounds. You can "see" (feel?) the shapes of objects, however.

Unfortunately, I have no explanation for _why_ all this is so, except for
saying "It's in SRII and the Grimoire."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's social suicide.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 3
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question about Astral Projection ("Manifestation")
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:46:22 +0100
|> Just like you can't read in the Astral Plane.
|
|You can't read texts because they're essentially the same as recorded
|sounds. You can "see" (feel?) the shapes of objects, however.
|
|Unfortunately, I have no explanation for _why_ all this is so, except for
|saying "It's in SRII and the Grimoire."

I think their reasoning goes along the lines of....

"If you talk to someone in person, you are psychicly linked to them in some
way that ALLOWS communication. It might APPEAR to be spoken, but it might be
more.... psionic in origin...."

"Recorded texts and sounds aren't concsious, so they can't communicate
anything except the emotional echoes of the person who wrote them, and if
this text was transmitted technologically, then even the emotion is lost."
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question about Astral Projection ("Manifestation")
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:08:45 -0400
On Tue, 20 May 1997, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> This question has been bugging me for a little while now, and I can't seem
> to settle on a satisfactory solution.
> [snip]
> After all, you have to have assensed the aura of someone in order to find
> them in the first place (unless you are using ritual sorcery). This is
> fine...say you have assensed the individual you wish to communicate with.
> You then locate this person and appear in their presence. You are still
> using your astral perception, not your physical senses (since you have no
> physical senses). However, you can't hear in the Astral Plane. Just like
> you can't read in the Astral Plane. Thus, it seems there is an
> inconsistency here. You can't make yourself apparent in the physical plane
> to read a street sign, so how can you talk to someone and understand what
> they are saying?
>
> I would appreciate any suggestions to help clarify this issue. At this
> point, it seems to be an inconsistency. However, I hope to logically
> explain this or change the house rules to incorporate what can really take
> place when a Mage makes him/herself apparent on the physical.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Justin :)
>

I think a manifesting magician can communicate with the outside
world just fine (at least in the campaigns I run). When you manifest I
believe you sort of pull yourself back into the real world but not into
your meat body. Therefore you can still create speech.

Dust
Message no. 5
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Question about Astral Projection ("Manifestation")
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:35:00 -0700
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
>

<snip>

> Well, when a Mage makes him/herself apparent to the physical world
while
> Astrally Projecting, he/she is able to communicate with those
present in
> the physical. What I don't get is how is the Mage able to do this?
>
> After all, you have to have assensed the aura of someone in order to
find
> them in the first place (unless you are using ritual sorcery). This
is
> fine...say you have assensed the individual you wish to communicate
with.
> You then locate this person and appear in their presence. You are
still
> using your astral perception, not your physical senses (since you
have no
> physical senses). However, you can't hear in the Astral Plane.
Just like
> you can't read in the Astral Plane.

I can't give you a page # since I'm at work and don't have the BBB or
Grimmy with me, but I know it explains in one of them that a living
voice can be heard astrally but a recorded or digitally produced voice
cannot. (Perhaps someone else can point you to where it explains
this?) So there should be no trouble hearing the person you wish to
communicate with and then responding. Again, not taking novels as
cannon, but this is presented more than once in them as well.

Along the same vein, how do you think a spirit or elemental
communicates with a person if they couldn't hear you? There's more
than one instant where a spirit is shown dealing with a mundane, so
there's nothing mystical or magical about this method of
communication. I would presume the spirits have the same set of senses
an astrally present mage would be using. :o)

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
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Message no. 6
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Question about Astral Projection ("Manifestation")
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:26:01 +0200
On Tue, 20 May 1997 03:04:34 -0400, Justin Pinnow wrote:

<snip>
>on the Astral plane, a Mage
>cannot hear, see, taste, smell, or touch anything per se. It is a less
>tangible sense. Words cannot be made out, but the emotion of the writing
>can be felt (moreso if handwritten rather than typed, etc.). Music cannot
>be heard, but the emotional content can be felt, etc.
<snap>
>You can't make yourself apparent in the physical plane
>to read a street sign, so how can you talk to someone and understand what
>they are saying?

Because when people talk there is enough of emotion to astrally
understand what they mean, I'd assume.
You could have a dialogue with someone, but you could not understand
when someone reads the phonebook loud, cause than there are too few
emotions.
That's what I think.

--
Arno
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