Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:23:51 +1000
Hi All,

Im making a quick program for creating guns by the rules found in
Cannon Companion ( yes I know that they allow you to make unrealistic
guns and yes I know 4th Ed will be out soon, its more an exercise in
programming than anything else ).

Anyways as part of the program I was thinking it would be cool to
actually describe as per the book what the different things are. i.e.
so instead of just picking the break action design option, you get the
description of what that actually means.

Now would that be a No No as far as Wizkids are concerned ? I mean if I
ever did release it as freeware would they want me to strip that stuff
out as its considered flavor text ? I think I remember reading
something about flavor text and the wiki but couldn't remember the
exact details so I thought I would ask.

Thanks
Owen McKerrow

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - -

People who prefer typing to pointing then seem to prefer acronyms to
save typing :-)
-Denis Stanton, On people using Command Line Interfaces
Message no. 2
From: adam@************.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:36:01 -0600
On 19-Jun-05, at 9:23 PM, Owen McKerrow wrote:

> Anyways as part of the program I was thinking it would be cool to
> actually describe as per the book what the different things are. i.e.
> so instead of just picking the break action design option, you get the
> description of what that actually means.
>
> Now would that be a No No as far as Wizkids are concerned ?

Correct; game stats are fair game in applications, but reproductions of
WizKids-owned non-chart-text is not.

Cheers,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
Message no. 3
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:33:26 +1000
So can I put the page number in there ? i.e the description for this
modification is found on page xx ?


On 20/06/2005, at 1:36 PM, Adam Jury wrote:

>
> On 19-Jun-05, at 9:23 PM, Owen McKerrow wrote:
>
>> Anyways as part of the program I was thinking it would be cool to
>> actually describe as per the book what the different things are. i.e.
>> so instead of just picking the break action design option, you get
>> the description of what that actually means.
>>
>> Now would that be a No No as far as Wizkids are concerned ?
>
> Correct; game stats are fair game in applications, but reproductions
> of WizKids-owned non-chart-text is not.
>
> Cheers,
> Adam
> --
> Adam Jury
> http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
>
>
Owen McKerrow
WebMaster, emlab
http://emlab.uow.edu.au

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - -

People who prefer typing to pointing then seem to prefer acronyms to
save typing :-)
-Denis Stanton, On people using Command Line Interfaces
Message no. 4
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:48:21 +0200
According to Owen McKerrow, on 20-06-2005 06:33 the word on the street
was...

> So can I put the page number in there ? i.e the description for this
> modification is found on page xx ?

I don't see why not. Book titles and page numbers are not usually the
kinds of things that people enforce copyright laws about :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3))
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:05:37 +1000
>>Im making a quick program for creating guns by the rules found in
>>Cannon Companion ( yes I know that they allow you to make unrealistic
>>guns and yes I know 4th Ed will be out soon, its more an exercise in
>>programming than anything else ).

>>Anyways as part of the program I was thinking it would be cool to
>>actually describe as per the book what the different things are. i.e.
>>so instead of just picking the break action design option, you get the
>>description of what that actually means.

>>Now would that be a No No as far as Wizkids are concerned ? I mean if I
>>ever did release it as freeware would they want me to strip that stuff
>>out as its considered flavor text ? I think I remember reading
>>something about flavor text and the wiki but couldn't remember the
>>exact details so I thought I would ask.

>Correct; game stats are fair game in applications, but reproductions of
>WizKids-owned non-chart-text is not.

But how can WizKids put a copyright on descriptive text? The only problem I
see is if it's an exact replication but what if it's similar (and I don't
just mean a single word change)?

Perhaps by just explaining that a break action is used in most double barrel
hunting/sport shotguns, would that be a violation?

A good idea might be to go a local library and check out (or maybe
reference) Jane's Fighting Guns.
They're pretty good at explaining how everything works (until I looked it up
in 99, I didn't know how a gas-powered rifle worked without fuel).
Message no. 6
From: pentaj2@********.edu (John C. Penta)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:11:32 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3)" <valeuj@*****.navy.mil>
Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:05 am
Subject: RE: Question about Copyright and Game Tools

> A good idea might be to go a local library and check out (or maybe
> reference) Jane's Fighting Guns.
> They're pretty good at explaining how everything works (until I
> looked it up
> in 99, I didn't know how a gas-powered rifle worked without fuel).

Um, it's the rare library that has a copy of anything from Jane's.
Message no. 7
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:28:36 -0600
On 20-Jun-05, at 11:05 PM, Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3) wrote:

> But how can WizKids put a copyright on descriptive text?

There's nothing that says you can't copyright "descriptive" [whatever
that's supposed to mean...] text.

Adam
Message no. 8
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:28:58 +0200
From: "John C. Penta" <pentaj2@********.edu>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3)" <valeuj@*****.navy.mil>
> Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:05 am
> Subject: RE: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
>
>> A good idea might be to go a local library and check out (or maybe
>> reference) Jane's Fighting Guns.
>> They're pretty good at explaining how everything works (until I
>> looked it up
>> in 99, I didn't know how a gas-powered rifle worked without fuel).
>
> Um, it's the rare library that has a copy of anything from Jane's.

Ask Gurth then, I'm sure he has is.

Lars
Message no. 9
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3))
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:04:32 +1000
>> But how can WizKids put a copyright on descriptive text?

>There's nothing that says you can't copyright "descriptive" [whatever
>that's supposed to mean...] text.

>Adam

Before I make a fool of myself, let me check the logs...

Ok, you said that non-chart-text cannot be reproduced without permission.

Descriptive text would be text describing some thing or action.

Ergo if he were to use the text from the book on what the differences
between a break action, clip-fed, or magazine-fed weapon are, then he would
be in trouble. However if he were to use his own examples, he should be
fine.

Correct?
Message no. 10
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:16:24 -0600
On 21-Jun-05, at 12:04 AM, Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3) wrote:

> Ergo if he were to use the text from the book on what the differences
> between a break action, clip-fed, or magazine-fed weapon are, then he
> would
> be in trouble. However if he were to use his own examples, he should
> be
> fine.

Correct.

Adam
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:24:50 +0200
According to Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3), on 21-06-2005 07:05 the word
on the street was...

> But how can WizKids put a copyright on descriptive text? The only problem I
> see is if it's an exact replication but what if it's similar (and I don't
> just mean a single word change)?

If you only change a few words, it's most likely still copyright
infringement (or plagiarism, if you claim you wrote it yourself).
However, saying the exact same thing but in your own words is not
copyright infringement. Thus, putting this:

Ares Predator: Considered by many the premier heavy pistol,
the Predator is a menacing weapon populair among mercenaries
and security services.

into a book/program/etc. would be breaking copyright laws. But saying
this instead:

Ares Predator: Used by mercenaries and security providers
the world over, and often regarded as the best heavy pistol
currently in production, the Predator is an awesome weapon.

would not be, even though it gives basically the same information.
(Although the use of the name "Ares Predator" might be a problem,
depending on how far lawyers are willing to go.)

> Perhaps by just explaining that a break action is used in most double barrel
> hunting/sport shotguns, would that be a violation?

Probably only if you use the exact same words as FanPro does.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:25:45 +0200
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on 21-06-2005 07:28 the word on the
street was...

>> Um, it's the rare library that has a copy of anything from Jane's.
>
> Ask Gurth then, I'm sure he has is.

Do you mean my own personal library has copies, or my local public
library does? :) (Both are true, BTW...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

[snip Ares Predator example]

> would not be, even though it gives basically the
> same information.
> (Although the use of the name "Ares Predator" might
> be a problem,
> depending on how far lawyers are willing to go.)

I'd say your example was a case of plagiarism: saying
entirely the same thing using only slightly different
words and phrasing. It'd be playing around with the
leeway WizKids allows it's fanbase, or that'd be the
hard line. I guess I'd try to be more qualitative,
i.e.:

Ares Predator: The heavy pistol gold standard, this is
the gun every pro will pack when they need stopping
power. Chunky, lethal and everywhere, it's impossible
not to be on either end of it's barrel.

bleah, whatever :). I guess I'm just saying that if it
sounds less like a Wiki entry it'll probably be more
acceptable.

> > Perhaps by just explaining that a break action is
> used in most double barrel
> > hunting/sport shotguns, would that be a violation?
>
> Probably only if you use the exact same words as
> FanPro does.

A picture says a 1000 words... might be a hassle
getting someone to draw or photoshop diagrams that
adequately capture the essence of a modification. Too
ambitious for a soon-to-be-redundant programming
effort, I guess. OTOH, the pictures will be recyclable
if there's a gun design system in $th ed.... (looks,
realizes mistake, smirks and shrugs).

cheers,

Jan Jaap



____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:03:51 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on 21-06-2005 11:42 the word on the
street was...

> I'd say your example was a case of plagiarism

Yeah, you're probably right, although it could well be one of those
kinds of things that you can make lawyers argue over for ages :)

> A picture says a 1000 words... might be a hassle
> getting someone to draw or photoshop diagrams that
> adequately capture the essence of a modification.

Photographs are easy :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:59:01 -0700 (PDT)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on 21-06-2005
> 11:42 the word on the
> street was...
>
> > I'd say your example was a case of plagiarism
>
> Yeah, you're probably right, although it could well
> be one of those
> kinds of things that you can make lawyers argue over
> for ages :)

Philosophers have happily been trying to tackle the
quandary of what words mean for more than 2000 years,
so I suppose you're right. Heavens forbid a lawyer
should think of using a philosophical or linguistic
model of reference to start arguing copyright issues
(maybe they have already, though).

cheers,

Jan Jaap




____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
Message no. 16
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:08:36 +1000
On 21/06/2005, at 7:42 PM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

> A picture says a 1000 words... might be a hassle
> getting someone to draw or photoshop diagrams that
> adequately capture the essence of a modification. Too
> ambitious for a soon-to-be-redundant programming
> effort, I guess. OTOH, the pictures will be recyclable
> if there's a gun design system in $th ed.... (looks,
> realizes mistake, smirks and shrugs).


Yup I had thought about that, pictures that is but as you said its a
lot of effort, for a small project that could very well not be at all
compatible with 4th ed.
Thats something I would like to see covered in one of the future FAQ's
( if we ever get another one ) is what is happening with the rest of
the tech in the world. I mean they have covered some of the basic
changes to the system and said that decking/hacking will not be the
same. But what about my guns, my other cyberware ? Im assuming its
still all there but are there stat changes ? Are there entirely new
stats ? Will the Areas Predator still pack the same punch as it always
did ? That is are gun/cyber/bioware/what ever still the same stats and
"layout" as 3rd ed o have these also been changed.


Owen McKerrow
WebMaster, emlab
http://emlab.uow.edu.au

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - -

"I like the way this project has somehow, against all common sense, got
itself made."
- Peter Jackson, "The Lord of The Rings"
Message no. 17
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:09:10 +1000
On 21/06/2005, at 9:03 PM, Gurth wrote:
>
> Photographs are easy :)

You offering ?
Message no. 18
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question about Copyright and Game Tools
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:54:50 +0200
According to Owen McKerrow, on 22-06-2005 02:09 the word on the street
was...

>> Photographs are easy :)
>
> You offering ?

I was just pointing out that it's easy to make photographs of a variety
of subjects that could be SR-related ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Question about Copyright and Game Tools, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!