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Message no. 1
From: Walter Scheper Ratlaw@*******.com
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:54:24 +0000 (GMT)
Being a PoliSci major this has been bugging me for a while. Do Corps
just get extraterritoriality whenever they set up a facility or do
they have to get it granted to them by the host country? For
instance, the UN building in New York was granted to the UN by the USA
as an territory of the UN, but the US can revoke that. Could UCAS
*legally* revoke a MegaCorps rights of extraterritoriality? I know
that it was done, sort of, in RA:S, but that was based on the claim
that the threat was to all of Seattle, I'm asking does UCAS have the
legal right in SR to just declare that it has revoked
extraterritoriality to a certain or all corps?
Ratlaw
Message no. 2
From: Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 01:58:08 +0300
Walter Scheper wrote:
>
> Being a PoliSci major this has been bugging me for a while. Do Corps
> just get extraterritoriality whenever they set up a facility or do
> they have to get it granted to them by the host country? For
> instance, the UN building in New York was granted to the UN by the USA
> as an territory of the UN, but the US can revoke that. Could UCAS
> *legally* revoke a MegaCorps rights of extraterritoriality? I know
> that it was done, sort of, in RA:S, but that was based on the claim
> that the threat was to all of Seattle, I'm asking does UCAS have the
> legal right in SR to just declare that it has revoked
> extraterritoriality to a certain or all corps?
> Ratlaw

Yes it can do that. The question should be though: Do they want to do
that? :-))

Cybertroll

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Message no. 3
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:49:04 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Cybertroll wrote:

> Walter Scheper wrote:
> >
> > I'm asking does UCAS have the
> > legal right in SR to just declare that it has revoked
> > extraterritoriality to a certain or all corps?
> > Ratlaw
>
> Yes it can do that. The question should be though: Do they want to do
> that? :-))
>
I would say that they couldn't do it legally. Corporate
extraterritoriality stems from the Shiawase decision, which occurred in
the UCAS. The courts have already ruled that it's legal. Unless the
situation changed, I doubht they could do it through the courts.

Aztlan did it once if I recall. Right after taking over for the Mexican
government they absorbed most if not all private interests in the company.
Although that's going a little farther than what you're suggesting.

My guess is it's not feasable even if a country were to do it. Revoking
extraterritorial status would most likely cause the megas to put out of
the country, and probably destroy the local economy in the process.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 4
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:10:55 -0400
Ratlaw asked:
> Being a PoliSci major this has been bugging me for a while. Do Corps
> just get extraterritoriality whenever they set up a facility or do
> they have to get it granted to them by the host country? For
> instance, the UN building in New York was granted to the UN by the USA
> as an territory of the UN, but the US can revoke that. Could UCAS
> *legally* revoke a MegaCorps rights of extraterritoriality? I know
> that it was done, sort of, in RA:S, but that was based on the claim
> that the threat was to all of Seattle, I'm asking does UCAS have the
> legal right in SR to just declare that it has revoked
> extraterritoriality to a certain or all corps?

IIRC, if a corp wishes to open in Aztlan they have to open a branch, but the
Aztlan government still has to have controlling stock in the branch (or was
it in Tir na Nog'). So I guess the government does have some say in the
matter (though in Aztlan there really isn't a difference).

I think in the case with the UCAS, the country is so dependant on business
(capitalism) that pissing off the corporations could have very bad side
effects from an economic POV. Though corp competition keeps that somewhat in
check. If the UCAS were to pass a law that went against all corporations
then the corps could really destabilize the country in retaliation and
possibly wind up with more power in the UCAS then they originally had.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 5
From: Walter Scheper Ratlaw@*******.com
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:04:29 +0000 (GMT)
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:49:04 -0400 (EDT), Drew Curtis
<dcurtis@***.net> wrote:

[snip]
>>
>I would say that they couldn't do it legally. Corporate
>extraterritoriality stems from the Shiawase decision, which occurred in
>the UCAS. The courts have already ruled that it's legal. Unless the
>situation changed, I doubht they could do it through the courts.

Ah, but the Shiawase decision says that Corporations have "the same
rights and privileges as foreign governments" (SR 2nd, p22). Now in
International law there is nothing that says that a state cannot
revoke rights of extraterritoriality that it has granted to other
states. In the modern world even MNC (multinational corporations)
that have profits greater than some countries GDP are bound by the
agreements they make with any government, even if they have more money
than that government. Now in Shadowrun MNC are considered to be equal
to governments, but that doesn't give them any legal rights to violate
the sovereignty of another nation or MNC. Doesn't mean that they
can't do it, just they can't do it legally.
>
>Aztlan did it once if I recall. Right after taking over for the Mexican
>government they absorbed most if not all private interests in the company.
>Although that's going a little farther than what you're suggesting.

Not sure what you mean here, what exactly did Aztlan do?
>
>My guess is it's not feasable even if a country were to do it. Revoking
>extraterritorial status would most likely cause the megas to put out of
>the country, and probably destroy the local economy in the process.

Well now, lets talk about this. I'm not too sure about the real
economy of 2060, but lets say UCAS gets pissed at Renraku over the Arc
disaster and as punishment revokes their rights to
extraterritoriality, effectively they kick Renraku out of the country
because foreign governments and MNC can't really own territory within
the borders of another nation or MNC. So Renraku pulls out all its
plants and retailers and everything else they do in most of North
America. Now who gets hurt more by this? UCAS because it loses the
jobs and population that Renraku takes with it or Renraku who loses
the entire UCAS as a market for its good? Hmm, I'd be tempted to say
Renraku gets the shaft in that deal, but maybe I'm wrong :). Now is
Renraku really going to close down all those factories and things that
it has invested billions of nuyen in? I mean, thats a *lot* of money
down the drain. Any thoughts?

PS: this is more theoretical because of a discussion in my
International Law and Politics course, rather than intended to be used
in a campaign (for whatever thats worth)

Ratlaw
>
>Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
>http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
>Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
>
>

Ratlaw
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:55:37 +0200
According to Walter Scheper, at 16:54 on 15 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Being a PoliSci major this has been bugging me for a while. Do Corps
> just get extraterritoriality whenever they set up a facility or do
> they have to get it granted to them by the host country?

The Corporate Court decides who gets extraterritoriality, and most
countries follow that decision. There are some strict rules to
extraterritoriality, though -- the primary one is that the area has to be
clearly marked as belonging to said corp, and have clear boundaries. So,
the couldn't simply claim half of an office as extraterritorial (unless
there's a clearly marked line on the floor, for example) but a whole floor
or a whole building can. Provided the corp puts its own signs on the area,
that is. For example, if Ares buys a building and puts NASA Consulting
signs on it, it's not extraterritorial -- although NASA is part of Ares,
NASA isn't extraterritorial. The same building with Ares signs on it would
be extraterritorial, OTOH.

> For instance, the UN building in New York was granted to the UN by the
> USA as an territory of the UN, but the US can revoke that. Could UCAS
> *legally* revoke a MegaCorps rights of extraterritoriality? I know that
> it was done, sort of, in RA:S, but that was based on the claim that the
> threat was to all of Seattle, I'm asking does UCAS have the legal right
> in SR to just declare that it has revoked extraterritoriality to a
> certain or all corps?

The UCAS government could pass a law that says no corp can have
extraterritoriality, sure -- they can pass any law they want, and
implement it if they can. The problems this would cause, though, would be
mostly for the UCAS rather than for the corps: the major corps likely pull
out of the UCAS, and the UCAS sees its economy collapse as a result.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 7
From: Martin Murray martin.murray@**********.com
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:08:05 +0100
> Being a PoliSci major this has been bugging me for a while. Do Corps
> just get extraterritoriality whenever they set up a facility or do
> they have to get it granted to them by the host country? For
> instance, the UN building in New York was granted to the UN by the USA
> as an territory of the UN, but the US can revoke that. Could UCAS
> *legally* revoke a MegaCorps rights of extraterritoriality? I know
> that it was done, sort of, in RA:S, but that was based on the claim
> that the threat was to all of Seattle, I'm asking does UCAS have the
> legal right in SR to just declare that it has revoked
> extraterritoriality to a certain or all corps?


Extraterritoriality is granted and revoked by the Corporate Court who have a
similar role to the present day UN (with regard to corps). It is only
granted when a corporation reaches a certain status (exactly how this is
measured is a little grey).

I suppose a country could, at least temporarily, ignore the rules of
extraterritoriality if there were mitigating circumstances but they would
probably have to explain themselves later.

You might ask, why would the country care? Well obviously the Corporate
Court could make the country's life 'inconvenient' to say the least, so most
countries deal with the Corp Court in an amiable manner.

There is a little about the Corp Court in the Corporate Download (which I've
just purchased), not a lot, but it gives you a little idea what they're all
about.



MJM
Message no. 8
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 02:30:39 -0700
> Well now, lets talk about this. I'm not too sure about the real
> economy of 2060, but lets say UCAS gets pissed at Renraku over the Arc
> disaster and as punishment revokes their rights to
> extraterritoriality, effectively they kick Renraku out of the country
> because foreign governments and MNC can't really own territory within
> the borders of another nation or MNC. So Renraku pulls out all its
> plants and retailers and everything else they do in most of North
> America. Now who gets hurt more by this? UCAS because it loses the
> jobs and population that Renraku takes with it or Renraku who loses
> the entire UCAS as a market for its good? Hmm, I'd be tempted to say
> Renraku gets the shaft in that deal, but maybe I'm wrong :). Now is
> Renraku really going to close down all those factories and things that
> it has invested billions of nuyen in? I mean, thats a *lot* of money
> down the drain. Any thoughts?

I think they would just transfer the ownership of the facilties to AA
corps they held, and opperate them by proxy. There are some big
corporations that are NOT extra-territorial, and some countries that do
restrict extra-territoriality (and corporate opperations ing general) more
than others. For example, Sader Krup is not allowed to opperate inside Tir
Tairngere, but does so by proxy; this likely has the effect, at least, of
reducing the amount of extra-territorial property they hold in that country
compared to others.

Mongoose
>
> PS: this is more theoretical because of a discussion in my
> International Law and Politics course, rather than intended to be used
> in a campaign (for whatever thats worth)
>
> Ratlaw
> >
> >Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
> >http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design
services.
> >Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points
between.
> >
> >
>
> Ratlaw
Message no. 9
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:12:51 +0100
In article <37e8cee3.98085038@****.megsinet.net>, Walter Scheper
<Ratlaw@*******.com> writes
>Being a PoliSci major this has been bugging me for a while. Do Corps
>just get extraterritoriality whenever they set up a facility or do
>they have to get it granted to them by the host country?

It has to be recognised by the Corporate Court and granted by the host
nation.

>For
>instance, the UN building in New York was granted to the UN by the USA
>as an territory of the UN, but the US can revoke that. Could UCAS
>*legally* revoke a MegaCorps rights of extraterritoriality?

Absolutely, in strictly legal terms.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 10
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Question about Corp Extraterritoriality (sp?)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:47:54 +0100
In article <199909160955.LAA00343@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>The UCAS government could pass a law that says no corp can have
>extraterritoriality, sure -- they can pass any law they want, and
>implement it if they can. The problems this would cause, though, would be
>mostly for the UCAS rather than for the corps: the major corps likely pull
>out of the UCAS, and the UCAS sees its economy collapse as a result.

I seriously doubt that. Much more likely, if extraterritoriality's being
revoked by some politician with an eye on possible tax revenues, the law
dies in a series of filibusters and amendments (much cheaper to just rent
a Representative than to fight an economic war). In normal circumstances
the megacorps have plenty of leverage.

If extraterritoriality's being revoked for a major crisis - especially if it
involves only one corporation, like the Renraku Arcology - then the
corporate attitude seems more likely to accept its loss on a local, site-by-
site and case-by-case basis. After all, if they fight it, they also end up
liable for anything coming out... and it's a lot more economic for Renraku
to let the UCAS Army seal off the Arcology than to try to handle the
problem itself. What happened to extraterritorial businesses in Chicago,
for instance?


And at absolute worst - the UCAS is a _big_ market. Sure, if worst came
to worst, some of the megas might up and leave... so what happens to
the ones who stay, with all that market share suddenly waiting to be
snatched? All the smaller-tier companies who'd leap at the chance to fill
the gaps? Major opportunities to make money there... and no clear
benefit to the megas. The benefits of any action _must_ outweigh the
costs, on a timescale short enough that it benefits the Board's stock
options, or it just won't happen.


--
Paul J. Adam

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