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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Sat Dec 15 20:00:01 2001
A shamans lodge has to be set up in the environment linked to his or her totem. But what
exactly does represent an environment?

Do you have to set up the lodge in an actual natural environment or could you use an
artificially created environment?

Example. Taking a massive climate controlled greenhouse, you recreate rainforest
conditions and effectively ship in a slice of raunforest by transplanting the trees,
bushes, bugs and insects. Aside from adding water and the occassional batch of fertilizer
to keep the soil going you leave it to grow wild.

Would a shaman with totem environment of a rianforest then be able to set up his lodge
here or does it have to be set in the real thing? Thanks.

Simon
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Sun Dec 16 12:15:01 2001
In a message dated 12/16/01 12:09:25 PM, flakjacket@***********.com writes:
>A shamans lodge has to be set up in the environment linked to his or her
>totem. But what exactly does represent an environment?
>
>Do you have to set up the lodge in an actual natural environment or could
>you use an artificially created environment?

Generally speaking, I don't think an artificial "habitat" is likely to fly
with most totems. Of course, the favored environments of urban totems ARE
artificial habitats, but the wilderness types generally need wilderness.

Of course, what constitutes "wilderness" is something of a judgment call.
Since parkland counts as the appropriate sort of domain for nature spirits
(forest, field, etc.), I'd guess that it would for shamanic lodges as well.
In fact, you're likely to find wilderness shamans that have to operate in the
'plex doing so in parks and such.

But an enclosed "biodome" sort of environment would most likely be a sort of
Hearth domain, IMHO, therefore "urban" and not suited to wilderness totems.
YMMV of course.
-----
Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Sun Dec 16 13:05:19 2001
According to TalonMail@***.com, on Sun, 16 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> But an enclosed "biodome" sort of environment would most likely be a sort
> of Hearth domain, IMHO, therefore "urban" and not suited to wilderness
> totems. YMMV of course.

That leads me to ask something I've wondered about for several years. I've
always played the Hearth domain as being only buildings that people actually
live or work in; walking into an otherwise unoccupied building doesn't make it a
Hearth domain in my campaign, but your remark about a biodome being a Hearth
domain leads me to suspect that that domain is any _occupied_ building.

Have I misinterpreted the domain for the past nine years? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 07:05:01 2001
Gurth writes:

> That leads me to ask something I've wondered about for several years. I've
> always played the Hearth domain as being only buildings that people
> actually live or work in; walking into an otherwise unoccupied building
> doesn't make it a Hearth domain in my campaign, but your remark about a
> biodome being a Hearth domain leads me to suspect that that domain is any
> _occupied_ building.

I would rule that, for example, a disused warehouse would be City Domain.
I'm not sure if this is right, though. OTOH, I would probably rule that a
used RV was Hearth Domain, too.

One of my players whinges that City Domain does not extend into Hearth
Domain. He argues that, for example, a forest on a mountain can be both
Forst and Mountain Domains, so why cannot an apartment building be both
Hearth and City Domain. It's all a matter of perspective, he says. I
disagree with him, but he has a point to some degree.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 13:15:01 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Mon, 17 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> I would rule that, for example, a disused warehouse would be City Domain.
> I'm not sure if this is right, though. OTOH, I would probably rule that a
> used RV was Hearth Domain, too.

Same here, but I figured I'd finally ask and see what others think is the
"right" way to play domains like this.

> One of my players whinges that City Domain does not extend into Hearth
> Domain. He argues that, for example, a forest on a mountain can be both
> Forst and Mountain Domains, so why cannot an apartment building be both
> Hearth and City Domain. It's all a matter of perspective, he says. I
> disagree with him, but he has a point to some degree.

He has a point, but if this would be the case, then there's really no use for
Hearth spirits, is there? City spirits have exactly the same powers plus one
more, and their stats are the same -- where's the point of conjuring a Hearth
spirit if it means you _can't_ tell it to frighten someone, when calling a
City spirit does give you that option and lets it go more places, too?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 13:25:01 2001
On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:20:11 +0100
Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> He has a point, but if this would be the case, then there's really no use for
> Hearth spirits, is there? City spirits have exactly the same powers plus one
> more, and their stats are the same -- where's the point of conjuring a Hearth
> spirit if it means you _can't_ tell it to frighten someone, when calling a
> City spirit does give you that option and lets it go more places, too?

Also, the domains don´t really overlap, since the books state
that the City domain doesn´t extend to the inside of buildings. About the
only way they might overlap is if your character finds his or herself in
an alley inhabited by a small community of squatters :).

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 13:30:01 2001
> Also, the domains donīt really overlap, since the books state
> that the City domain doesnīt extend to the inside of buildings. About the
> only way they might overlap is if your character finds his or herself in
> an alley inhabited by a small community of squatters :).
>

Somehow I don't think a cardboard box/fire barrel meets the requirements for
a hearth spirit domain ;) Might be wrong but I think spirits would be just
a wee bit picky on that ;)
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 13:55:01 2001
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
>
>Gurth writes:
>
> > That leads me to ask something I've wondered about for several years.
>I've
> > always played the Hearth domain as being only buildings that people
> > actually live or work in; walking into an otherwise unoccupied building
> > doesn't make it a Hearth domain in my campaign, but your remark about a
> > biodome being a Hearth domain leads me to suspect that that domain is
>any
> > _occupied_ building.
>
>I would rule that, for example, a disused warehouse would be City Domain.
>I'm not sure if this is right, though. OTOH, I would probably rule that a
>used RV was Hearth Domain, too.
>
>One of my players whinges that City Domain does not extend into Hearth
>Domain. He argues that, for example, a forest on a mountain can be both
>Forst and Mountain Domains, so why cannot an apartment building be both
>Hearth and City Domain. It's all a matter of perspective, he says. I
>disagree with him, but he has a point to some degree.

I believe one of the published adventures had stats for a Hearth Spirit in a
bar. What domain an area is depends on what the general populance of the
area Thinks it is. If you invite strangers into your house on a regular
basis it could be both city and hearth, but if you are normal and only let
people you know in (with occasional one night stands or those entertaining
religious door-to-door people) it would be hearth only. So if its a
warehouse with a bunch of squatters and an Average person thinks it would be
fine to walk in uninvited it would count as City. If the squatters think it
is home and care for the place, it counts as Hearth. They don't have to be
exclusive, but they usually are since most people don't feel comfy
wandering/allowing through someone's home/their home.

My question is for the unusual places. Like temples, churches, etc. While
they invite strangers in, most don't feel comfortable going there, so it
isn't City, yet most members of the congregation do not think of it as their
second home, so it isn't really Hearth (unless the religious leaders live
there and "invite" the congregation in).
Is there another good category to place it?


_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 13:55:03 2001
In a message dated 12/17/01 12:09:26 PM, shadowrn-request@*********.com
writes:
>That leads me to ask something I've wondered about for several years. I've
>always played the Hearth domain as being only buildings that people actually
>live or work in; walking into an otherwise unoccupied building doesn't make
it a
>Hearth domain in my campaign, but your remark about a biodome being a Hearth
>domain leads me to suspect that that domain is any _occupied_ building.
>
>Have I misinterpreted the domain for the past nine years? :)

Well, there's certainly a fine line between "buildings people live and work
in" and "occupied buildings." I consider a hearth domain "any
artificial
structure with a significant human presence" so homes, apartment buildings,
offices, stores, malls, arcologies, stadiums, and so forth are all hearth
domains, even if there aren't currently people there (such as an office or
mall that's closed for the night and empty).

Abandonded buildings eventually become part of the greater city domain unless
someone is squatting there (in which case they remain hearth). How long it
takes is pretty much up to the GM, although a full lunar cycle (28 days) is
always a good rule of thumb. Naturally, if the building is later
re-inhabited, it becomes hearth domain again. Just having people in an
abandoned building doesn't make it a hearth domain, however. An abandoned
warehouse being used for a meet, for example, is still city domain. If the
same warehouse was a regular gang hangout, then it might be a hearth (albeit
a rough one).

As with many things magical, the line can be somewhat fuzzy at times ;-)

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:40:01 2001
On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:02:14 -0330
"Jonathan" <jhogan@**********.nf.net> wrote:

> > Also, the domains don´t really overlap, since the books state
> > that the City domain doesn´t extend to the inside of buildings. About the
> > only way they might overlap is if your character finds his or herself in
> > an alley inhabited by a small community of squatters :).
> >
>
> Somehow I don't think a cardboard box/fire barrel meets the requirements for
> a hearth spirit domain ;) Might be wrong but I think spirits would be just
> a wee bit picky on that ;)
>
Well, if you go with shamanism, every home has it´s own spirit
to watch over the inhabitants... No matter how small or poor the home.
The spirit might be limited in domain to a small circle (say, 5 meters) with
the box and barrel on the center. Remember most ancient tribal homes
weren't much more than a few bison skins or leaves draped over some
sticks :).



--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 17:35:01 2001
>Do you have to set up the lodge in an actual natural environment or could
>you use an artificially created environment?

I suppose its whether the placement of the shamanic lodge is a matter of
reception (I hear wolf better whent he Dream Catcher is pointed north) or a
matter of apeasment and atonement (I feel more in touch with wolf when my
soul can feel the land where wolf would play) If the first then you would
need to go to the actual wilderness. If the second, the actual wilderness
would be better, but the second would do as you are knida spreading you
totems domain into the city. And I'm sure any totem would give some kind of
reward for all that effort, just for a shamanic lodge, even if that reward
is just allowing it to be a shamanic lodge. The expense of such a thing
would be big tho. At least equal to a low or medium life style, especially
if it rainforest or the like in seattle.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 18:45:01 2001
<snip>
> takes is pretty much up to the GM, although a full lunar cycle (28 days)
is
> always a good rule of thumb. Naturally, if the building is later
<snip>

Steve, I like the "full lunar cycle" gimmik, makes since.

Here's a Q for you guys, what happens when I take a City Spirit into a
Hearth domain? Do the residing spirits (going on Bira's previous comment
"if you go with shamanism, every home has itīs own spirit to watch over the
inhabitants") lash out at mine or do they remain ambivilant to it?

John
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon Dec 17 19:30:01 2001
On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:50:26 -0500
"John" <lpvoid@********.rr.com> wrote:


> Here's a Q for you guys, what happens when I take a City Spirit into a
> Hearth domain? Do the residing spirits (going on Bira's previous comment
> "if you go with shamanism, every home has it´s own spirit to watch over the
> inhabitants") lash out at mine or do they remain ambivilant to it?
>
> John

Well, technically, you can't take make it cross domains unless
it's a Great Form spirit. But if you either have one of these or find
yourself in one of those rare overlapping domains situation, I believe
the resident spirits wouldn't get angry with you and your spirit until
it actually starts to trash the place. If this goes too far, you might
get some reactions from the residing spirit even if no one summoned it;
it might use one of it's powers on you, or create some background count.
This isn't official, but seems cool :).

The books comment that shamanic spirits tend to have more
personality and free will than elementals - if you tell your city spirit
to trash that home, it might complain and object quite a bit before you
can actually get it to do this. This is more of a role-playing thing,
since "normal" bound spirits can't refuse to follow their summoner's
instructions. If it was an ally spirit, tough, it might attempt to go
free on this occasion.


--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue Dec 18 02:35:01 2001
Gurth writes:

> He has a point, but if this would be the case, then there's really no use
> for Hearth spirits, is there? City spirits have exactly the same powers
> plus one more, and their stats are the same -- where's the point of
> conjuring a Hearth spirit if it means you _can't_ tell it to frighten
> someone, when calling a City spirit does give you that option and lets it
> go more places, too?

I didn't realise that at the time, but it's a good point, yeah.

Bira writes:

> Also, the domains donīt really overlap, since the books state that the
> City domain doesnīt extend to the inside of buildings. About the only
> way they might overlap is if your character finds his or herself in an
> alley inhabited by a small community of squatters :).

I think that it was this exclusive description that he was disagreeing with.
His reasoning was that, for instance, a large mountain would be mountain
domain. However, a small forest on the mountain (analagous with a building
in a city) was both forest _and_ mountain domain. Whereas in a city, a
building (if appropriately inhabited) would be exclusively hearth domain,
not city.

Dan Turek writes:

> My question is for the unusual places. Like temples, churches, etc. While
> they invite strangers in, most don't feel comfortable going there, so it
> isn't City, yet most members of the congregation do not think of it as
> their second home, so it isn't really Hearth (unless the religious leaders
> live there and "invite" the congregation in). Is there another good
> category to place it?

It probably depends on how you view buildings like offices, pubs, and so on,
too. According to the books, such buildings are inhabited on a regular
basis, even if nobody actually _lives_ there. Thus they are hearth domain. I
would imagine that most places of worship like temples and churches would be
similar.

John writes:

> Steve, I like the "full lunar cycle" gimmik, makes since.

Me too! <grin>

> Here's a Q for you guys, what happens when I take a City Spirit into a
> Hearth domain? Do the residing spirits (going on Bira's previous comment
> "if you go with shamanism, every home has itīs own spirit to watch over
> the inhabitants") lash out at mine or do they remain ambivilant to it?

I think that they'd get along. After all, it's possible for a shaman
standing on the forested top of a mountain to summon a mountain spirit and
give it orders, and then to switch domains to summon a forest spirit, and
then an air spirit. The three spirits all individually carry out their
orders in the same place at the same time, and they get along fine.

OTOH, if, say, the mountain spirit was tasked with uprooting all the trees,
then perhaps the forest spirit might get a little miffed ;-).

With the city/hearth situation, though, the city spirit could not pass into
the hearth domain (they appear to more or less be exclusive) unless it was a
Great Form or Free Spirit. And it could not use it's Powers in the hearth
domain unless it was a Free Spirit (Great Forms can _cross_ domain
boundaries, but they can still only use their Powers in their own domain).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue Dec 18 03:45:01 2001
>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:37:38 +1100
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
>
> > My question is for the unusual places. Like temples, churches, etc.
>While they invite strangers in, most don't feel comfortable going there, so
>it isn't City, yet most members of the congregation do not think of it as
>their second home, so it isn't really Hearth
>
>It probably depends on how you view buildings like offices, pubs, and so
>on, too. According to the books, such buildings are inhabited on a regular
>basis, even if nobody actually _lives_ there. Thus they are hearth domain.
>I would imagine that most places of worship like temples and churches would
>be similar.
>

A pub like Cheers would be Hearth - they didn't seem to like strangers. I've
been to several places like that. Coffee houses, bookstores, and art
galleries that technically are open to the public, but if you're not "One of
Them" that live there you aren't really welcome. Mom and Pop stores can feel
sort of "homey" too.

This may be an older edition talking, but I remember a lot of corporate
areas, offices etc. were considered soulless and pretty much a non-domain. A
nature spirit couldn't be summoned or be brought into there. If it was SO
depressing as to have a background count, it would possibly be a Toxic
Hearth or City Spirit.

What would a place that has a Positive effect and causes a background count
be? While Hearth fits in a pinch, it seems a bad fit. While we aren't
supposed to talk about religion too much on the list I am curious if anyone
has more info on the spirits/domains for various religions (for my campaign
in particular I'm interested in Christian Churches, Dominican and Jesuit
monasteries, and Islamic mosques (as if there are other types) as well as a
synogog (no idea how to spell that and too tired to look it up) ). Are there
archived things on dumpshock somewhere or perhaps an upcoming Target:
Religions? I find the talk about religions in the Grimoire one of the more
interesting parts of the whole book and find it sad that the mainstream
religions get ignored when it comes to game mechanics.

What would you consider a large sized Renaissance Festival? Around here the
biggest one is outdoor sort of in a meadow that has been tampled into dirt
with sparse trees and rickety structures that no one ever lives in and are
deserted 9 months of the year. A small outdoor concert hall or theatre also
comes to mind. Once again Hearth is closest, but still seems off. Anyone
with a larger vocabulary have a good word for what I'm looking for?

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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue Dec 18 05:30:01 2001
Dan Turek writes:

> This may be an older edition talking, but I remember a lot of corporate
> areas, offices etc. were considered soulless and pretty much a non-domain.
> A nature spirit couldn't be summoned or be brought into there. If it was SO
> depressing as to have a background count, it would possibly be a Toxic
> Hearth or City Spirit.

Really? I don't recall it ever being _impossible_ to summon a nature spirit
anywhere unless the domain was toxic. Even such souless places as corporate
labs that had background counts still had nature spirits - just small,
depressed, helpless feeling ones (or agitated, agressive, borderline toxic
ones ;-)). Summoning these spirits in a domain with a background count was
more difficult, but still possible, I thought. Once the line to toxic was
crossed, only a toxic shaman could summon the spirits as they were now
toxic. However, they would be the same type of spirit (hearth, city, etc) as
would normally inhabit the domain.

> What would a place that has a Positive effect and causes a background count
> be? While Hearth fits in a pinch, it seems a bad fit.

Well, not neccessarily. The spirit summoned would be the normal one for the
domain. Summoning it, however, could be more difficult due to the background
count (maybe it's having too good a time ;-)). OTOH, if the background count
was aspected, then summoning it if you were the appropriate person could be
easier. So a forest shrine to a druidic totem would be a forest domain
still, even if followers of the totem literally camped out there every
second day.

> While we aren't supposed to talk about religion too much on the list I am
> curious if anyone has more info on the spirits/domains for various
> religions (for my campaign in particular I'm interested in Christian
> Churches, Dominican and Jesuit monasteries, and Islamic mosques (as if
> there are other types) as well as a synogog (no idea how to spell that and
> too tired to look it up) ).

I've seen various such things on the 'net and elsewhere. But I've steered
clear of them due to potential difficulties. OTOH, they were mostly hugely
munchkinous, or poorly researched, or single mindset biased, too, so I don't
feel like I'm missing out on all that much ;-).

> What would you consider a large sized Renaissance Festival? Around here
> the biggest one is outdoor sort of in a meadow that has been tampled into
> dirt with sparse trees and rickety structures that no one ever lives in and
> are deserted 9 months of the year.

I'm not exactly sure what this is. Maybe it'd be a field spirit, but once
the festival was underway might become hearth. Especially in the buildings,
and certainly so if people 'lived' in them for any length of time.

> A small outdoor concert hall or theatre also comes to mind. Once again
> Hearth is closest, but still seems off.

They're good ones! They'd almost have to be the domain in which they were
sitting, I'd think. Thus an outdoor theatre in the Botanic Gardens would
probably be forest, still. Interesting.

> Anyone with a larger vocabulary have a good word for what I'm looking for?

Er, not me ;-). Although it seems to me that trying to specify domains for
small seldom used microcosms is going to be difficult.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue Dec 18 06:05:07 2001
According to TalonMail@***.com, on Mon, 17 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> Well, there's certainly a fine line between "buildings people live and
> work in" and "occupied buildings." I consider a hearth domain
"any
> artificial structure with a significant human presence" so homes,
> apartment buildings, offices, stores, malls, arcologies, stadiums, and so
> forth are all hearth domains, even if there aren't currently people there
> (such as an office or mall that's closed for the night and empty).

Pretty much the same way I've always looked at this question, then. Good :)

> Abandonded buildings eventually become part of the greater city domain
> unless someone is squatting there (in which case they remain hearth). How
> long it takes is pretty much up to the GM, although a full lunar cycle
> (28 days) is always a good rule of thumb. Naturally, if the building is
> later re-inhabited, it becomes hearth domain again. Just having people in
> an abandoned building doesn't make it a hearth domain, however. An
> abandoned warehouse being used for a meet, for example, is still city
> domain. If the same warehouse was a regular gang hangout, then it might
> be a hearth (albeit a rough one).

This is the main part that's often confused, I think. I've run into a number of
GMs who've ruled that any occupied building is a Hearth domain, so that walking
into an abandoned warehouse suddenly gives it a Hearth spirit rather than the
City spirit that would be there if you could summon it without entering the
building. (Does that make sense? :)

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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed Dec 19 02:40:01 2001
> One of my players whinges that City Domain does not extend into
> Hearth Domain. He argues that, for example, a forest on a mountain >
can be both Forst and Mountain Domains, so why cannot an apartment >
building be both Hearth and City Domain. It's all a matter of
> perspective, he says. I disagree with him, but he has a point to
> some degree.

Damn you Dammion, I was going along all nice, just reading the
archives when I felt like it, then I see this. Damn you.

In case you didn't figure it out from the above, I am that player.


The way I see it, magic is based around perception. The hermetic and
shamanic schools of magic are based around the way a magician
perceives magic working.

As such, since I myself perceive a house or other inhabited building
within a city as being a part of the city, I can easily imagine
average Joe Shaman doing so also. Since the shaman perceives the
building as being both, he could use it as both. I don't think there's
some law of the metaplanes (apart from the SR rules, which are a
metaplane all of their own) against it.

I can also imagine a park being part of the city domain, depending on
the shaman's point of view. If the shaman sees them as isolated
pockets of wilderness and peace and security and all that nice warm
fuzzy stuff the no. But if he sees it as just another part of the city
then yes.

I might as well put all the other stuff from this thread into one post
since I'm doing so from the archives. So:

> He has a point, but if this would be the case, then there's really >
no use for Hearth spirits, is there? City spirits have exactly the >
same powers plus one more, and their stats are the same -- where's >
the point of conjuring a Hearth spirit if it means you _can't_ tell >
it to frighten someone, when calling a City spirit does give you
> that option and lets it go more places, too?

That is true. I would think that a hearth spirit is mmuch more
familiar with it's domain, as compared to a city spirit who thinks of
it as a very tiny chunk. A hearth spirirt could probably do a fair
imitation of the fear power anyway I reckon. "ah, so your afraid of
mice are you, I'll just go grab the one that lives in that other
room". Apart from that, Hearth spirits are much cooler, and due to
interacting with far less people, have a much more focused and less
generic personality, as the personalityies of it's domains inhabitants
rub off on it. If you are simply playing what is powerful and strictly
by the rules, yes that's the case. But roleplaying wise, I reckon
Hearth spirits are cool.


> Also, the domains don't really overlap, since the books state
> that the City domain doesn't extend to the inside of buildings.
> About the only way they might overlap is if your character finds
> his or herself in an alley inhabited by a small community of
> squatters

In this and many other cases, rules be damned if it's getting in the
way of common sense or something cool, and it can be easily fixed.
Especially when Damion is the GM, and has practically rewritten the
rules already, one more small change wouldn't make much of a
difference. But I'm still happy playing the way it is, so it won't
really bother me, it's just one of my pet peeves.


> Somehow I don't think a cardboard box/fire barrel meets the
> requirements for a hearth spirit domain ;) Might be wrong but I
> think spirits would be just a wee bit picky on that ;)

As to that one, I reckon a hearth spirit would definitely inhabit it,
and probably be very similar in temperamnet to the owner of the box.
Whether a shaman could summon it or not depends on their point of
view. A street shaman who sees plenty of people who live in boxes
could, as he would see it as someone's home, while a rich wage mage
would see it as nothing but trash, and hence couldn't.

> It probably depends on how you view buildings like offices, pubs,
> and so on, too. According to the books, such buildings are
> inhabited on a regular basis, even if nobody actually _lives_
> there. Thus they are hearth domain. I would imagine that most
> places of worship like temples and churches would be similar.

Heh, according to my theory, the North Gong would definitely be a
hearth domain for me, probably even to the exclusion of city.


>>> I believe one of the published adventures had stats for a Hearth
Spirit in a bar. What domain an area is depends on what the general
populance of the area Thinks it is. If you invite strangers into your
house on a regular basis it could be both city and hearth, but if you
are normal and only let people you know in (with occasional one night
stands or those entertaining religious door-to-door people) it would
be hearth only. So if its a warehouse with a bunch of squatters and an
Average person thinks it would be fine to walk in uninvited it would
count as City. If the squatters think it is home and care for the
place, it counts as Hearth. They don't have to be exclusive, but they
usually are since most people don't feel comfy wandering/allowing
through someone's home/their home. <<<<

That's assuming that people think of it as one or the other, which I
don't think they would. For a bar, there would be the regulars, who
think of it as something akin to a second home, who might think of it
mostly as hearth, but would likely still associate it with the city.
Whereas it would be vice versa for someone who just happened to walk
in off the street randomly.


>>>>> My question is for the unusual places. Like temples, churches,
etc. While they invite strangers in, most don't feel comfortable going
there, so it isn't City, yet most members of the congregation do not
think of it as their second home, so it isn't really Hearth (unless
the religious leaders live there and "invite" the congregation in). Is
there another good category to place it? <<<<<

Again, my theory can account for these things by thinking how the
character relates to them. A non-religious character would look at a
church in a certain way for example, while an ardent follower likely
thinks of it as home.
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed Dec 19 02:40:04 2001
> One of my players whinges that City Domain does not extend into
> Hearth Domain. He argues that, for example, a forest on a mountain >
can be both Forst and Mountain Domains, so why cannot an apartment >
building be both Hearth and City Domain. It's all a matter of
> perspective, he says. I disagree with him, but he has a point to
> some degree.

Damn you Dammion, I was going along all nice, just reading the
archives when I felt like it, then I see this. Damn you.

In case you didn't figure it out from the above, I am that player.


The way I see it, magic is based around perception. The hermetic and
shamanic schools of magic are based around the way a magician
perceives magic working.

As such, since I myself perceive a house or other inhabited building
within a city as being a part of the city, I can easily imagine
average Joe Shaman doing so also. Since the shaman perceives the
building as being both, he could use it as both. I don't think there's
some law of the metaplanes (apart from the SR rules, which are a
metaplane all of their own) against it.

I can also imagine a park being part of the city domain, depending on
the shaman's point of view. If the shaman sees them as isolated
pockets of wilderness and peace and security and all that nice warm
fuzzy stuff the no. But if he sees it as just another part of the city
then yes.

I might as well put all the other stuff from this thread into one post
since I'm doing so from the archives. So:

> He has a point, but if this would be the case, then there's really >
no use for Hearth spirits, is there? City spirits have exactly the >
same powers plus one more, and their stats are the same -- where's >
the point of conjuring a Hearth spirit if it means you _can't_ tell >
it to frighten someone, when calling a City spirit does give you
> that option and lets it go more places, too?

That is true. I would think that a hearth spirit is mmuch more
familiar with it's domain, as compared to a city spirit who thinks of
it as a very tiny chunk. A hearth spirirt could probably do a fair
imitation of the fear power anyway I reckon. "ah, so your afraid of
mice are you, I'll just go grab the one that lives in that other
room". Apart from that, Hearth spirits are much cooler, and due to
interacting with far less people, have a much more focused and less
generic personality, as the personalityies of it's domains inhabitants
rub off on it. If you are simply playing what is powerful and strictly
by the rules, yes that's the case. But roleplaying wise, I reckon
Hearth spirits are cool.


> Also, the domains don't really overlap, since the books state
> that the City domain doesn't extend to the inside of buildings.
> About the only way they might overlap is if your character finds
> his or herself in an alley inhabited by a small community of
> squatters

In this and many other cases, rules be damned if it's getting in the
way of common sense or something cool, and it can be easily fixed.
Especially when Damion is the GM, and has practically rewritten the
rules already, one more small change wouldn't make much of a
difference. But I'm still happy playing the way it is, so it won't
really bother me, it's just one of my pet peeves.


> Somehow I don't think a cardboard box/fire barrel meets the
> requirements for a hearth spirit domain ;) Might be wrong but I
> think spirits would be just a wee bit picky on that ;)

As to that one, I reckon a hearth spirit would definitely inhabit it,
and probably be very similar in temperamnet to the owner of the box.
Whether a shaman could summon it or not depends on their point of
view. A street shaman who sees plenty of people who live in boxes
could, as he would see it as someone's home, while a rich wage mage
would see it as nothing but trash, and hence couldn't.

> It probably depends on how you view buildings like offices, pubs,
> and so on, too. According to the books, such buildings are
> inhabited on a regular basis, even if nobody actually _lives_
> there. Thus they are hearth domain. I would imagine that most
> places of worship like temples and churches would be similar.

Heh, according to my theory, the North Gong would definitely be a
hearth domain for me, probably even to the exclusion of city.


>>> I believe one of the published adventures had stats for a Hearth
Spirit in a bar. What domain an area is depends on what the general
populance of the area Thinks it is. If you invite strangers into your
house on a regular basis it could be both city and hearth, but if you
are normal and only let people you know in (with occasional one night
stands or those entertaining religious door-to-door people) it would
be hearth only. So if its a warehouse with a bunch of squatters and an
Average person thinks it would be fine to walk in uninvited it would
count as City. If the squatters think it is home and care for the
place, it counts as Hearth. They don't have to be exclusive, but they
usually are since most people don't feel comfy wandering/allowing
through someone's home/their home. <<<<

That's assuming that people think of it as one or the other, which I
don't think they would. For a bar, there would be the regulars, who
think of it as something akin to a second home, who might think of it
mostly as hearth, but would likely still associate it with the city.
Whereas it would be vice versa for someone who just happened to walk
in off the street randomly.


>>>>> My question is for the unusual places. Like temples, churches,
etc. While they invite strangers in, most don't feel comfortable going
there, so it isn't City, yet most members of the congregation do not
think of it as their second home, so it isn't really Hearth (unless
the religious leaders live there and "invite" the congregation in). Is
there another good category to place it? <<<<<

Again, my theory can account for these things by thinking how the
character relates to them. A non-religious character would look at a
church in a certain way for example, while an ardent follower likely
thinks of it as home.
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed Dec 19 06:15:01 2001
> The way I see it, magic is based around perception. The hermetic and
> shamanic schools of magic are based around the way a magician
> perceives magic working.

Too bad the very first intro into magic plainly states that while each
mage/shaman might precieve magic differently, perform slightly different
rituals to produce the same effect...it will be the same effect. Regardless
of "how" the mage makes the effect happen the general rules of the magic
being used is universal.

In other words....your mage could believe it's invisible faeries making his
magic work doesn't change the reality of what truly IS making it work or how
it will function. (else you'd have mages that believe that a force 1
fireball explodes with the same size and damage as a force 20...)

>
> As such, since I myself perceive a house or other inhabited building
> within a city as being a part of the city, I can easily imagine
> average Joe Shaman doing so also. Since the shaman perceives the
> building as being both, he could use it as both. I don't think there's
> some law of the metaplanes (apart from the SR rules, which are a
> metaplane all of their own) against it.
>
> I can also imagine a park being part of the city domain, depending on
> the shaman's point of view. If the shaman sees them as isolated
> pockets of wilderness and peace and security and all that nice warm
> fuzzy stuff the no. But if he sees it as just another part of the city
> then yes.

Yes domains overlap but to prevent spirits from negating the usefulness of
other spirits (or making some more powerful), each are seperate. (ie for the
mountain with a forest, yes you have access to mountain sky and forest
domains however you can't access all three at once. It's impossible, to
enter one you'd leave another)

Now while yes a park is part of the overlaying city domain it's a self
contained forest domain. Summoning a city spirit then entering the
forest...negates any services the city spirit might still owe you, you've
left it's domain, same thing applies if you summon a mountain spirit and
order it into the forest, that's not it's domain it WILL be weakened.

And while one can say Joe Shaman might view things differently, I point you
to above. All mages look at magic differently, doesn't change the universal
rules they follow. The mage does NOT determine the rules of magic. He/she
DOES determine how they access that magic.

:-)

It's all about strategy I tells ya! ;-)
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed Dec 19 15:50:02 2001
> Too bad the very first intro into magic plainly states that while
each
> mage/shaman might precieve magic differently, perform slightly
different
> rituals to produce the same effect...it will be the same effect.
Regardless
> of "how" the mage makes the effect happen the general rules of the
magic
> being used is universal.

That to me is justification for the rules rather than a comment on the
fundamental nature of magic in SR. Do you really think that is a full
blown law of magic. I think there are no laws of magic. But people
have only a certain amount that they can comprehend, hence the
limitations.

> In other words....your mage could believe it's invisible faeries
making his
> magic work doesn't change the reality of what truly IS making it
work or how
> it will function. (else you'd have mages that believe that a force 1
> fireball explodes with the same size and damage as a force 20...)

But that would probably be all he could do. Also, I reckon only
hermetics would actually believe in force levels full stop, it's a
game mechanic, nothing more (and a necessary one might I add).

> Yes domains overlap but to prevent spirits from negating the
usefulness of
> other spirits (or making some more powerful), each are seperate. (ie
for the
> mountain with a forest, yes you have access to mountain sky and
forest
> domains however you can't access all three at once. It's impossible,
to
> enter one you'd leave another)

Yep, I realise this, and that is because the shaman focuses on one
particular domain at a time IMO, to work the magic. If he didn't focus
on one, he might end up with some weird spirit with a combo of the
powers of all three, but he wouldn't be able to choose wwhich ones (eg
you summon a wind forest mountain spirit, but it doesn't have the
movement power you really wanted).

> Now while yes a park is part of the overlaying city domain it's a
self
> contained forest domain. Summoning a city spirit then entering the
> forest...negates any services the city spirit might still owe you,
you've
> left it's domain, same thing applies if you summon a mountain spirit
and
> order it into the forest, that's not it's domain it WILL be
weakened.

That's the way other domains already work, except that in other
domains, the transition is mental rather than physical.

> And while one can say Joe Shaman might view things differently, I
point you
> to above. All mages look at magic differently, doesn't change the
universal
> rules they follow. The mage does NOT determine the rules of magic.
He/she
> DOES determine how they access that magic.

There are NO universal rules to magic in Shadowrun, there are merely
game mechanics put into place to make it playable.

> It's all about strategy I tells ya! ;-)

I reckon it's more about buggerising around and having fun in a really
cool setting, also known as roleplaying.
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Thu Dec 20 00:50:03 2001
Benjamin John Hayes writes:

> That to me is justification for the rules rather than a comment on the
> fundamental nature of magic in SR. Do you really think that is a full blown
> law of magic. I think there are no laws of magic. But people have only a
> certain amount that they can comprehend, hence the limitations.

Er, no, I actually think that there are some concrete "laws" in magic. For
example, the amount of "mana" available at any given time. Even the dragons,
who you agree know enormously more about magic than mere metahumanity, had to
hibernate during the "odd" ages. The amount of magic around was simply not
enough to support them, no matter what they might have personally believed
or wished. Likewise, there are other reasonably fundamental limits in
various places, such as only initiates being able to access the metaplanes.
No matter how much a non-initiated magician wants to go there, or how much
he understands what the metaplanes are and how they work, he still can't get
there.

As before, the question is "where to draw the line". For the purposes of the
game world, the line is probably closer to the "WYTIWYG" end of the
spectrum. But for the purposes of the _game_, it's closer to the "what the
rules say" end. It's a game after all, so it's got to be reasonably
consistent and fair.

> But that would probably be all he could do. Also, I reckon only hermetics
> would actually believe in force levels full stop, it's a game mechanic,
> nothing more (and a necessary one might I add).

Well, I'd think that probably neither of them would actually believe in
"Force" levels in a numerical way. Both would consider the effort, or power,
that they were using to be a measure of the drain that they would be
suffering. More effort = more effect = more drain. Just like someone doing,
say, high jump today doesn't really consider the numerical details, but how
hard they push their body, and the commensurate risk of injury and such that
goes along with it.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: Question About Totem Environments/Shamanic Lodges
Date: Thu Dec 20 06:05:01 2001
> Er, no, I actually think that there are some concrete "laws" in
magic. For
> example, the amount of "mana" available at any given time. Even the
dragons,
> who you agree know enormously more about magic than mere
metahumanity, had to
> hibernate during the "odd" ages. The amount of magic around was
simply not
> enough to support them, no matter what they might have personally
believed
> or wished. Likewise, there are other reasonably fundamental limits
in
> various places, such as only initiates being able to access the
metaplanes.

I'll pay the mana level one, but will point this out, perhaps not even
dragons mind is capable of such a broad perspective. And you know what
I think of dragons.

> No matter how much a non-initiated magician wants to go there, or
how much
> he understands what the metaplanes are and how they work, he still
can't get
> there.

How come we're all there right now then ;)? Again, I reckon that is
more a rule law than a world law. It's also one of the things that
makes initiation cool. Personally I'd like to see non-initiated
magicians be able to go to the metaplanes, but not get the metamagical
abilities. That would give the mage a bit more incentive NOT to
initiate, thus providing a bit more variety IMO. Right now pretty much
everyone initiates ASAP.

I'm also going to bring up Earthdawn here, so anyone who doesn't like
that sort of thing can bugger off. Netherworld travel there does relie
on initiation so to speak (progressing in the discipline at least),
but this is mainly due to the danger posed by the Horrors IMO.

> As before, the question is "where to draw the line". For the
purposes of the
> game world, the line is probably closer to the "WYTIWYG" end of the
> spectrum. But for the purposes of the _game_, it's closer to the
"what the
> rules say" end. It's a game after all, so it's got to be reasonably
> consistent and fair.

As I've said, I understand that, and am quite happy to play it that
way, it's just one of my pet peeves. If I was really cranky about it,
I could do a Rolly, but you already know rules don't tend to get me
worked up enough to do anything about, just enough to crap on in
places like this for ages.

> Well, I'd think that probably neither of them would actually believe
in
> "Force" levels in a numerical way. Both would consider the effort,
or power,
> that they were using to be a measure of the drain that they would be
> suffering. More effort = more effect = more drain. Just like someone
doing,
> say, high jump today doesn't really consider the numerical details,
but how
> hard they push their body, and the commensurate risk of injury and
such that
> goes along with it.

I could see hermetics doing it that way, not all, but I imagine there
would be some.It's a natural scientific desire to want to quantify
things, and they do tend to approach things from that sort of point of
view.

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