Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:14:14 -0700

Message no. 1 I had a discussion last night about this very issue and would like to clear
it up once and for all.

It is my direct understanding that ammo such as SLAP (Saboted, Light Armor
Piercing) and other AP-styled ammo relies on transferring as much kinetic
energy into as small an area as possible in order to penetrate. Typically
this is done by surrounding a high-strength/density rod with a much softer
metal. When the round impacts the surround metal deforms readily, but the
penetrating rod (which is still travelling at full speed) continues on.
Since its cross section is much smaller, and is typically dense it has MUCH
more kinetic energy spread over a much smaller area. I would assume bronze
would shatter against hard armor or deform too much at impact.

Now, I'm no rocket scientist but it seems to me that a bronze penetrating
rod is about the opposite of what one would expect. Bronze is not exactly
the densest or strongest metal known. I would assume that the casing
surrounding the rod is actually bronze, but the penetrating rod is either
cheap steel or tungsten.

Am I off-base here or is there something about bronze that makes it useful
as a penetrator rod?

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

From:	Zebulin L. Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:24:01 -0700

Message no. 2 Tzeentch <tzeentch666@*********.net> wrote:

> Am I off-base here or is there something about bronze that makes it useful
> as a penetrator rod?
>
> Ken

I had this very same discussion with a few of my group too. Bronze is a soft
metal and none of us thought too highly of it being used in an AV role.
Someone pooched this.

-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Fri, 14 Apr 2000 19:19:14 -0500

Message no. 3 :Now, I'm no rocket scientist but it seems to me that a bronze penetrating
:rod is about the opposite of what one would expect. Bronze is not exactly
:the densest or strongest metal known. I would assume that the casing
:surrounding the rod is actually bronze, but the penetrating rod is either
:cheap steel or tungsten.

Bronze is denser than steel (by about 15-20%, iirc), and some of the
alloys are almost as hard as hardened steel if properly treated. Hardness
and strength are not exactly the same thing.

:Am I off-base here or is there something about bronze that makes it useful
:as a penetrator rod?
:
:Ken

It is one potentially usefull material. Compared to other types, it
might be better against some armors and worse against others, as is typical
in this sort of thing.
One potentially useful feature in the context of small arms is that you
could make a NON saboted AP ammo from bronze, and only harden the tip of the
round, leaving the rest soft enough that it won't damage a guns rifling.

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:25:17 +0100

Message no. 4 In article <046001bfa64e$01cf83a0$1331143f@*************.net>, Tzeentch
<tzeentch666@*********.net> writes
>Am I off-base here or is there something about bronze that makes it useful
>as a penetrator rod?

Not particularly.

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:29:29 +0100

Message no. 5 In article <000201bfa698$e11edfc0$b34e0404@****>, Sebastian Wiers
<m0ng005e@*********.com> writes
>:Now, I'm no rocket scientist but it seems to me that a bronze penetrating
>:rod is about the opposite of what one would expect. Bronze is not exactly
>:the densest or strongest metal known. I would assume that the casing
>:surrounding the rod is actually bronze, but the penetrating rod is either
>:cheap steel or tungsten.
>
> Bronze is denser than steel (by about 15-20%, iirc), and some of the
>alloys are almost as hard as hardened steel if properly treated. Hardness
>and strength are not exactly the same thing.

Whereas tungsten is over twice as dense as steel, and considerably harder
- that's why it's been the basis of most kinetic-energy AP rounds for the
last fifty-plus years...

> One potentially useful feature in the context of small arms is that you
>could make a NON saboted AP ammo from bronze, and only harden the tip of the
>round, leaving the rest soft enough that it won't damage a guns rifling.

One common approach is to put a tungsten core in a gilding-metal jacket,
or to use a subcalibre tungsten core in a light alloy jacket (APCR or HVAP,
rather than APDS)

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:43:38 +0200

Message no. 6 According to Tzeentch, at 13:14 on 14 Apr 00, the word on the street
was...

> It is my direct understanding that ammo such as SLAP (Saboted, Light Armor
> Piercing) and other AP-styled ammo relies on transferring as much kinetic
> energy into as small an area as possible in order to penetrate.

Yes. More energy over a smaller area equals greater penetration. (Most
extreme RL example: 100+ mm APFSDS tank gun rounds.)

> Typically this is done by surrounding a high-strength/density rod with a
> much softer metal.

Or by putting packing around the round that falls off when the round
leaves the barrel.

> Now, I'm no rocket scientist but it seems to me that a bronze penetrating
> rod is about the opposite of what one would expect. Bronze is not exactly
> the densest or strongest metal known.

I'm no engineer, but I do know one of the the reasons why the bronze age
turned into the iron age, is because bronze is softer than iron -- hit
someone's armor with a bronze sword and you've got a dented sword; hit
that same armor with an iron sword and you might cut through. Bronze cores
would be one of the worst choices for AP rounds there is, IMHO.

> Am I off-base here or is there something about bronze that makes it useful
> as a penetrator rod?

Not AFAIK. It is denser than steel (specific gravity ~9 kg/m^3 vs. ~7 to 8
kg/m^3) but if, as I believe it is, it's much softer, steel would be the
much better choice.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	HHackerH@*.com HHackerH@*.com
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:51:39 EDT

Message no. 7 In a message dated 4/15/00 4:31:44 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Paul@********.demon.co.uk writes:

>
> Whereas tungsten is over twice as dense as steel, and considerably harder
> - that's why it's been the basis of most kinetic-energy AP rounds for the
> last fifty-plus years...

Paul, I normally would not dispute you on anything military, but the
information presented by Colt and Browning regarding such indicates that
bronze-core rounds have been around as the "staple" round of ammunition in
the past, and not tungsten. I also recall that tungsten hasn't been mined,
let alone molded, in the volume of mankind's manufacturing history in order
to qualify for the necessary volume of firearm ammunition alone, let alone
it's original mainstay usage (electric lightbulbs).

I'm curious about this, because its' an area where conflicting information or
perhaps even misinterpreted reports, can lead to further misinformation down
the line.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]

From:	HHackerH@*.com HHackerH@*.com
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:55:07 EDT

Message no. 8 In a message dated 4/15/00 5:43:12 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> I'm no engineer, but I do know one of the the reasons why the bronze age
> turned into the iron age, is because bronze is softer than iron -- hit
> someone's armor with a bronze sword and you've got a dented sword; hit
> that same armor with an iron sword and you might cut through. Bronze cores
> would be one of the worst choices for AP rounds there is, IMHO.
>
> > Am I off-base here or is there something about bronze that makes it
useful
> > as a penetrator rod?
>
> Not AFAIK. It is denser than steel (specific gravity ~9 kg/m^3 vs. ~7 to 8
> kg/m^3) but if, as I believe it is, it's much softer, steel would be the
> much better choice.

Not when it comes to the transferal of kinetic energy however. If you want
penetration, yes, you'd want something more durable/less "soft". If you want
something that delivers more raw kinetic force, you need something that will
transfer the energy at a greater rate. Bronze will do this, where as
iron/steel (though it will also do so) do so at a lower rate of efficiency.

I'm trying to find my notes on this one, because I'm wondering now about
something else.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:48:46 +0100

Message no. 9 In article <6f.3b331ce.262a4c7b@***.com>, HHackerH@***.com writes
>In a message dated 4/15/00 4:31:44 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>Paul@********.demon.co.uk writes:
>> Whereas tungsten is over twice as dense as steel, and considerably harder
>> - that's why it's been the basis of most kinetic-energy AP rounds for the
>> last fifty-plus years...
>
>Paul, I normally would not dispute you on anything military, but the
>information presented by Colt and Browning regarding such indicates that
>bronze-core rounds have been around as the "staple" round of ammunition in
>the past, and not tungsten.

Interesting - got a source for this?

For instance, during World War 2, a major problem the Germans had was
shortage of tungsten. One permitted use was in the Pzgr40 shot for the
50mm PAK38 antitank gun, which was in 1942 almost the only weapon
capable of defeating the Soviet T-34 and KV-1 tanks. Once the supply of
tungsten-cored ammunition ran out, the PAK38 was all but useless on the
Eastern Front.

Scaling down to small-arms ammunition, for WW2 calibres, UK .303 AP
type W1, used a hardened steel core. The .55 Boys used steel cores in the
Mark 1 and 2 AP bullets, and tungsten in the AP W Mark 3.

USSR 7.62mm x 25 AP was steel-cored, as were the 7.62mm x 54R
rifle/MG rounds (except for the M1940 API round which used tungsten)The
12.7mm Soviet used steel at first, tungsten in the M1941. Likewise, the
14.5mm anti-tank rifle round (later adapted to a heavy MG) which
entered service in 1932 with steel-cored ammunition and switched to
tungsten in 1942.

German 7.92mm AP were steel-coresd: tungsten was briefly used before
shortages forced a return to steel.

More modern, the only use of bronze in 5.56mm ammunition is in Italian
training ammunition, where bronze powder is used in a plastic binder.
"Short-range training (frangible): Bronze powder with plastic binder; 1.6
g; Mv 1,000 m/s. Shoots within 120 mm of service ball at 100 m range.
Maximum range 1,000 m" Jane's Ammunition Handbook.

7.62mm x 39 AP is steel-cored: 7.62mm NATO AP likewise.

I can't find a single military AP round which uses bronze as a core.

>I also recall that tungsten hasn't been mined,
>let alone molded, in the volume of mankind's manufacturing history in order
>to qualify for the necessary volume of firearm ammunition alone, let alone
>it's original mainstay usage (electric lightbulbs).

Most small-arms ammunition is not armour-piercing, and much of what is
uses hardened steel cores.

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	HHackerH@*.com HHackerH@*.com
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sun, 16 Apr 2000 06:40:50 EDT

Message no. 10 In a message dated Sun, 16 Apr 2000 6:21:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Paul J.
Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk> writes:

> In article <6f.3b331ce.262a4c7b@***.com>, HHackerH@***.com writes
> >Paul, I normally would not dispute you on anything military, but the
> >information presented by Colt and Browning regarding such indicates that
> >bronze-core rounds have been around as the "staple" round of ammunition
in
> >the past, and not tungsten.
>
> Interesting - got a source for this?

It was on their respective websites when I originally found it. There was also related
information found through the minerals research division at ASU [Arizona State University]
(I used to go to their websites alot because of the information they had on mining in
general at one time).
>
> For instance, during World War 2, a major problem the Germans had was
> shortage of tungsten. One permitted use was in the Pzgr40 shot for the
> 50mm PAK38 antitank gun, which was in 1942 almost the only weapon
> capable of defeating the Soviet T-34 and KV-1 tanks. Once the supply of
> tungsten-cored ammunition ran out, the PAK38 was all but useless on the
> Eastern Front.

I remember reading this actually, and thought it was interesting that all references to
tungsten that I could find with regards to ammunition were purely military, but were not
civilian or police level.

> Scaling down to small-arms ammunition, for WW2 calibres, UK .303 AP
> type W1, used a hardened steel core. The .55 Boys used steel cores in the
> Mark 1 and 2 AP bullets, and tungsten in the AP W Mark 3.
>
> USSR 7.62mm x 25 AP was steel-cored, as were the 7.62mm x 54R
> rifle/MG rounds (except for the M1940 API round which used tungsten)The
> 12.7mm Soviet used steel at first, tungsten in the M1941. Likewise, the
> 14.5mm anti-tank rifle round (later adapted to a heavy MG) which
> entered service in 1932 with steel-cored ammunition and switched to
> tungsten in 1942.
>
> German 7.92mm AP were steel-coresd: tungsten was briefly used before
> shortages forced a return to steel.

Again, I remember reading this for the german side of things in the WW's, but to be
honest, did not go heavily digging into the Soviet side at all. It's really starting to
bug me, because I haven't found the original information at all now.

> More modern, the only use of bronze in 5.56mm ammunition is in Italian
> training ammunition, where bronze powder is used in a plastic binder.
> "Short-range training (frangible): Bronze powder with plastic binder; 1.6
> g; Mv 1,000 m/s. Shoots within 120 mm of service ball at 100 m range.
> Maximum range 1,000 m" Jane's Ammunition Handbook.

This is also familiar to me.

> 7.62mm x 39 AP is steel-cored: 7.62mm NATO AP likewise.
>
> I can't find a single military AP round which uses bronze as a core.

See my statements about tungsten and the military above.

> >I also recall that tungsten hasn't been mined,
> >let alone molded, in the volume of mankind's manufacturing history in order
> >to qualify for the necessary volume of firearm ammunition alone, let alone
> >it's original mainstay usage (electric lightbulbs).
>
> Most small-arms ammunition is not armour-piercing, and much of what is
> uses hardened steel cores.

This is really starting to frustrate me, because I remember researching this when we had
our draft copies of CC and verifying the "Bronze Core" thing mentioned under the
AV Ammunition types as not only feasible, but up to date (we too had our doubts about
"bronze" working, but when we found the proofs at the time, we dropped the
argument).

I may just cry "uncle" on this one since I can't find it again and even go so
far as to make a suggestion to Mike M/FASA that they reverse (or at least give me their
sources) the "bronze" description as an "Errata".

-k (Hoosier Hacker House)

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:16:22 +0200

Message no. 11 According to HHackerH@***.com, at 18:55 on 15 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> Not when it comes to the transferal of kinetic energy however. If you want
> penetration, yes, you'd want something more durable/less "soft".

Which is what started this thread: the bronze AP rounds in Cannon
Companion.

> If you want something that delivers more raw kinetic force, you need
> something that will transfer the energy at a greater rate. Bronze will
> do this, where as iron/steel (though it will also do so) do so at a
> lower rate of efficiency.

Or something softer and heavier still. Like, well, maybe... lead? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:16:22 +0200

Message no. 12 According to HHackerH@***.com, at 18:51 on 15 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> Paul, I normally would not dispute you on anything military, but the
> information presented by Colt and Browning regarding such indicates
> that bronze-core rounds have been around as the "staple" round of
> ammunition in the past

I can't say I've ever heard of bronze being used to construct modern
bullets. Brass for the jacket, yes, but bronze cores...? (That's not to
say you're wrong, though, just that I've never heard of it.)

> and not tungsten. I also recall that tungsten hasn't been mined, let
> alone molded, in the volume of mankind's manufacturing history in order
> to qualify for the necessary volume of firearm ammunition alone, let
> alone it's original mainstay usage (electric lightbulbs).

Tungsten is a very common material in large-caliber armor-piercing rounds,
like for tank guns, in part because the only real alternative is depleted
uranium. It was also used, in WWII, to construct certain weapon barrels
that needed to be stronger than steel could make them (squeeze-bore guns,
to be precise).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:08:55 -0400

Message no. 13 From: "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
> I had a discussion last night about this very issue and would like to
clear
> it up once and for all.
>
> It is my direct understanding that ammo such as SLAP (Saboted, Light Armor
> Piercing) and other AP-styled ammo relies on transferring as much kinetic
> energy into as small an area as possible in order to penetrate. Typically
> this is done by surrounding a high-strength/density rod with a much softer
> metal. When the round impacts the surround metal deforms readily, but the
> penetrating rod (which is still travelling at full speed) continues on.
> Since its cross section is much smaller, and is typically dense it has
MUCH
> more kinetic energy spread over a much smaller area. I would assume bronze
> would shatter against hard armor or deform too much at impact.
>
> Now, I'm no rocket scientist but it seems to me that a bronze penetrating
> rod is about the opposite of what one would expect. Bronze is not exactly
> the densest or strongest metal known. I would assume that the casing
> surrounding the rod is actually bronze, but the penetrating rod is either
> cheap steel or tungsten.
>
> Am I off-base here or is there something about bronze that makes it useful
> as a penetrator rod?

To my knowledge - admittedly, not as great as others' - typically, you'd use
a tungsten penetrator in a bullet of lead or bronze - ideally, lead, IIRC,
as it "peels" more easily.

From:	Charles S Remis cremis@******.net
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:04:24 -0500

Message no. 14 HHackerH@***.com wrote:

> > >information presented by Colt and Browning...indicates...
> > >bronze-core rounds have been around as the "staple" round
> > >of ammunition in the past, and not tungsten.
> >
> > Interesting - got a source for this?
>
> I may just cry "uncle" on this one since I can't find it again

With a short search, neither could I, but bronze cored rounds
are specifically mentioned in the definition of AP in some
of the legislation concerning it.

"ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION - A projectile or projectile core
which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed
entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances)
from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium. Such term
does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State
environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a
frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a
projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended
to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or
projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be
used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an
oil and gas well perforating device. 18 U.S.C."

"The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 creates
a new definition of "armor piercing ammunition" aimed at
eliminating new types of bullets. Now handgun ammunition made of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium, copper
or depleted uranium or handgun ammunition larger than .22 caliber
where the jacket weighs more than 25% of the bullet is banned."

As an aside, any opinions on hypervelocity pistol rounds
like the .224 Boz? It's fairly hard to find so here's a link...

http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/boz224.html

Regards,

Charlie

From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:24:56 -0700

Message no. 15 From: "Charles S Remis" <cremis@******.net>
> > I may just cry "uncle" on this one since I can't find it again
>
> With a short search, neither could I, but bronze cored rounds
> are specifically mentioned in the definition of AP in some
> of the legislation concerning it.
>
> "ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION - A projectile or projectile core
> which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed
> entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances)
> from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
> brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium. Such term
> does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State
> environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a
> frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a
> projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended
> to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or
> projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be
> used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an
> oil and gas well perforating device. 18 U.S.C."
>
> "The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 creates
> a new definition of "armor piercing ammunition" aimed at
> eliminating new types of bullets. Now handgun ammunition made of
> tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium, copper
> or depleted uranium or handgun ammunition larger than .22 caliber
> where the jacket weighs more than 25% of the bullet is banned."

That doesn't say much. They don't specifically mention the penetrator rod so
it could be a bronze jacket with a steel core. Dunno.

<snip>

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Question: Bronze Cored AP Ammo
Date:	Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:51:05 +0100

Message no. 16 In article <38FCA3A8.978FCBCD@******.net>, Charles S Remis
<cremis@******.net> writes
>As an aside, any opinions on hypervelocity pistol rounds
>like the .224 Boz? It's fairly hard to find so here's a link...
>
>http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/boz224.html

I had a very interesting conversation with CDS's armourer, at DSEI'99. I
think you'd see a lot of similar rounds in a Shadowrun-like environment,
given the prevalence of body armour.

.224BOZ certainly isn't aimed at the civilian market (though their M-16
conversion to fire a Magnummed .50AE is :) ) but at forces whose
enemies wear serious body armour. For that, it seems to be a very
effective round.

--
Paul J. Adam

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer