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Message no. 1
From: David Lowe dlowe@*********.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:23:34 -0700
What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large city? Let me 'splain
further.

In my campaign, said warhead might be detonated in San Francisco, sometime
in the near future. Having only pop-culture references to go from, I want
to know a couple of things:

1) Is it realisitic to have a warhead, or partial warhead, that will fit
into a container approx .5m high x .5m wide x 2.5m long, a la the George
Clooney film The Peacemaker? I don't need a backpack "pocket" nuke, the
storyline will accomdate getting a warhead that size where I need it.

2) With that warhead in mind, what would it do?
I have jpegs posted at http://www.lowephoto.com/games/sr/maps/ that show
where I'm planning to do this. Keep in mind that there are two major
bridges within 5k of either side of the bridge, and the first mile or so
inland is landfill.

Have fun.

D.
David R. Lowe
Lowe Photography

650.714.1862

dlowe@****.com
http://www.lowephoto.com
Message no. 2
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:44:20 +0200
And finally, David Lowe expressed himself by writing:

> What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large city? Let
> me 'splain further.

Take a look :

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html

<snip>

> 1) Is it realisitic to have a warhead, or partial warhead,
> that will fit into a container approx .5m high x .5m wide
> x 2.5m long, a la the George Clooney film The Peacemaker?
> I don't need a backpack "pocket" nuke, the storyline will
> accomdate getting a warhead that size where I need it.

From what I know about missile systems, it should
fit.

> 2) With that warhead in mind, what would it do?
> I have jpegs posted at http://www.lowephoto.com/games/sr/maps/
> that show where I'm planning to do this. Keep in mind that
> there are two major bridges within 5k of either side of the
> bridge, and the first mile or so inland is landfill.

I took a quick look at the map for 1MT groundburst,
and IMHO it's not that important :)

--
arclight
I am a Proffessional Western Movie Background
Street Crosser
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14322211]
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Message no. 3
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:59:42 -0600
David Lowe wrote:
>What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large city? Let me 'splain
>further.
>
>In my campaign, said warhead might be detonated in San Francisco, sometime
>in the near future. Having only pop-culture references to go from, I want
>to know a couple of things:
>
>1) Is it realisitic to have a warhead, or partial warhead, that will fit
>into a container approx .5m high x .5m wide x 2.5m long, a la the George
>Clooney film The Peacemaker? I don't need a backpack "pocket" nuke, the
>storyline will accomdate getting a warhead that size where I need it.

Very realistic. The amount of fissionable material required is maybe the
size of a baseball (although I wouldn't be surprised if an amount as small
as a ping pong ball would work). The rest is the explosive to compress the
material, and the electronics to time the explosives. There are nuclear
tipped artillery shells in the US arsenal (120mm by 500mm I would guess).

Given that microelectronic technology in SR far exceeds our own, and C-12
is commercially available, I would assume that it would be fairly easy to
make a small nuke, provided you can acquire the nuclear material.

>2) With that warhead in mind, what would it do?

Depends on how big it is, and where it is when it goes off.

The initial blast tears things down, just like a regular explosion, except
much, much, bigger. How big the initial blast is is dependant on the size
of the bomb. As GM, I would suggest that you work backwards from how big
you want to explosion to be to how big the bomb should be.

Nuclear explosions are so big that they have to blast waves, sorta. The
initial blast wave goes out. This one can be thought of as a hard
blast. Because the explosion is so powerful it creates a low pressure
center as it pushes air out. That air rushes back in. The rush of air can
be though of as a soft blast. It doesn't reach the supersonic speeds that
the outward blast does, but it's plenty powerful to shred anything that was
weakened by the initial blast. As with the initial blast, the close you
are to ground zero, the stronger the inrush of air.

Nuclear explosions are also hot. In addition to the blast, a heat wave
will set quite a bit of real estate on fire (what it doesn't vaporize that is).

After the explosion the fire that was started can cause more damage than
the nuclear explosion itself. This is what happened to Nagasaki and
Hiroshima. The bombs didn't destroy those cities, the firestorm caused by
the bomb did.

Get a map of San Fran and look at the area where the bomb goes
off. Destroy everything within a quarter mile outright. Outside the
quarter mile make a judgement call based on the general strength of
buildings to determine outright destruction. Now check for fire. Sky
scrapers are actually pretty fire resistant. Older apartment buildings
(which San Fran is full of) are tinder boxes. Older residential
neighborhoods would be more susceptible to fire than newer residential
neighborhoods.

Now check traffic access for controlling the fire. Will fire trucks be
able to get to the fires?

What's the weather like after the Nuke goes off? San Fran generally has a
light breeze coming in off the ocean during the day (and heading to the
ocean at night). If there's a front moving through the wind will be
stronger and will spread the fire quicker.

Were any gas mains ruptured? Remember when a gas main was ruptured in the
~1988 earthquake?

Where water mains broken?

And finally the radiation is the last issue to worry about. Where does the
fallout go? If it's winter it probably heads inland. If it's summer it
probably heads out to sea.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Wisdom has two parts: having a lot to say, and not saying it."
Message no. 4
From: Grey metis76@*****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:12:25 -0700 (PDT)
--- David Lowe <dlowe@*********.com> wrote:
> What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large
> city? Let me 'splain
> further.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html

Follow the link above, enter the city you want to blow
up (you can even enter the exact address that the bomb
goes off), and have fun! You can pick either a 1
megaton (about the size of the Hiroshima hydrogen
bomb) or a 25 megaton (about 2000 times more
powerfull).

Grey

P.S. You can play with cities around the globe, not
just those in the US. :)

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Message no. 5
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:03:29 -0700
From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
> >1) Is it realisitic to have a warhead, or partial warhead, that will fit
> >into a container approx .5m high x .5m wide x 2.5m long, a la the George
> >Clooney film The Peacemaker? I don't need a backpack "pocket" nuke, the
> >storyline will accomdate getting a warhead that size where I need it.
>
> Very realistic. The amount of fissionable material required is maybe the
> size of a baseball (although I wouldn't be surprised if an amount as small
> as a ping pong ball would work). The rest is the explosive to compress
the
> material, and the electronics to time the explosives. There are nuclear
> tipped artillery shells in the US arsenal (120mm by 500mm I would guess).

Don't forget the now (in) famous nuclear recoilless rifle (the Davey
Crocket) http://www.ncoic.com/nukelink.htm

It was (AFAIK) the smallest nuclear weapon in service. It weighed 76 pounds
and was 30 inches long. The actual warhead was 51 pounds and had a yield of
0.01kT.

You should also do some research into the SADM (Small Atomic Demolitions
Munitions) which came in both "gun" and "imposion" types. They were to
be
dropped in with specially trained specops teams to destroy key facilities.
The imposion style had a yield of .2kT and weighed 45 pounds. The "gun" type
was more powerful (could not find a reference for yield in my quick search)
but weighed 120 pounds but was split into three components. It was about 23
inches in length when assembled.

> Given that microelectronic technology in SR far exceeds our own, and C-12
> is commercially available, I would assume that it would be fairly easy to
> make a small nuke, provided you can acquire the nuclear material.

The timing of the explosion is the tricky part. Nanofacs and other easily
available gear would allow anyone to manufacture the components with the
proper tolerances.

> >2) With that warhead in mind, what would it do?
>
> Depends on how big it is, and where it is when it goes off.

You shold be able to find plenty of info on the effects of nuclear weapons
on the web, including tables and various ways of figuring the damage effects
of a detonation at various altitudes.

Of course you should also be aware that a nuke detonation will fundamentally
change the SR world ;) You shold also play up the various agencies that will
be hunting down the players, notably NEST teams from the various countries
(who can and will turn the players in chunky salsa). And if they are
captured alive somehow their names will become synonomous with the worst
mass murderers of all time - and thats if they don't succeed!

Ken
Message no. 6
From: David Lowe dlowe@*********.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:16:44 -0700
OK, how's this for fundamentally changing the SR world?

There will be a (mostly dormant) horror at ground zero. A
yet-to-be-determined major, named, horror. I pretty much have decided what
would happen, but just for fun's sake, what do you all think would be the
result?

D.

ps. And no, it won't be any of this namby pamby "and then you all wake up
from a simsense dream" type of paradigm shift. If I'm gonna make a fraggin'
omlet like this, I'm breaking me some eggs.


>Of course you should also be aware that a nuke detonation will fundamentally
>change the SR world ;) You shold also play up the various agencies that will
>be hunting down the players, notably NEST teams from the various countries
>(who can and will turn the players in chunky salsa). And if they are
>captured alive somehow their names will become synonomous with the worst
>mass murderers of all time - and thats if they don't succeed!
>
>Ken

David R. Lowe
Lowe Photography

650.714.1862

dlowe@****.com
http://www.lowephoto.com
Message no. 7
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:25:17 -0700
From: "David Lowe" <dlowe@*********.com>
> OK, how's this for fundamentally changing the SR world?
>
> There will be a (mostly dormant) horror at ground zero. A
> yet-to-be-determined major, named, horror. I pretty much have decided what
> would happen, but just for fun's sake, what do you all think would be the
> result?

Well for one thing the background count for the entire area would shoot
through the roof. you might to even see that ground zero is a mana warp due
to the annihilation of all lifeforms (even atmospheric bacteria) in the
area. This will go away over time.

If the Horror gated through because of the nuke you might want to throw in a
few cultists who help out the players for odd reasons (play up their
mystery). They are suing the nuke detonation to complete a massive
sacrifice - when all the people get vaped that completes the summoning and
*poof* Insta-Astral Bridge (tm).

for even more fun have the Horror also be radioactive or even warped by the
radiation and mana fluxes. That would be an interesting plot device since
even the cultists will be trying to get rid of the thing. Throw in some
minor entities also popping up (wraiths, various constructs) and you should
have loads of fun - especially since the nuke will probably damage or
destroy the JIN forces in the Bay (which means the various anti-occupation
forces will probably take advantage of the carnage).

The area will also be pretty heavily contaminated, forming a toxic zone if
nothing else. The entire area will probably be blocked off and everyone
wanting good press will be sending humanitarian aid in to the city. After
that you can expect every government to be tracking down who detonated the
nuke - most likely using mass ritual groups. if the players are the ones who
detonated the device then if they made ONE mistake anywhere along the line
then they will probably be caught or reported. I belive the Flaw "Hung Out
to Dry" and "Hunted" should apply to the entire group.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 8
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:10:03 -0500
All the real tech aside, the fuel-air explosive mentioned in
"Man&Machine" (damn silly place for it!) is a good place
to start for what your little banger can actually shag&frag. Figure the #
of kilograms based on the cargo factor you think
it would take up, and set the rating based on the cost of the radioactive
element (real world about 2 mil a kilo, minimum).
That would make a rating of about 282, with the weight of the
Molecular/background count rearranger being the additional
factor in determining how much smacketh is layethed down.

Or you can simply sum up the damage with a snappy quote.

"If he's still in there, he ain't happy." (crappy movie, good line)

(I wanna be a) COWBOY (baby!)
CJ
Arkades@****.com
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Message no. 9
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:47:33 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: David Lowe <dlowe@*********.com>

> OK, how's this for fundamentally changing the SR world?
>
> There will be a (mostly dormant) horror at ground zero. A
> yet-to-be-determined major, named, horror. I pretty much have decided what
> would happen, but just for fun's sake, what do you all think would be the
> result?

I sorta thought about this myself... but questions came up that I couldn't
quite figure the answers to.

If all life is wiped out then would there be "mana" per se?

The main rulebook says there is no mana in space, since there is no life...
so what I was wondering about is... if a metahuman, whose existance is based
on the levels of mana on the earth, went into space... would said metahuman
"revert" back into a human form?

In my upcoming Post Apocalypse campaign, I thought about areas where there
was no mana on the planet... life was dead there and the flow of mana
might/is corrupted... saying that spells fail, magic items become inert,
etc... would be a given, but what would happen to things that require a
certain level of mana (metahumans, paranormals, spirits, dragons) if they
entered such an area.

Augustus
Message no. 10
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:00:24 -0700
From: "C J Tipton" <arkades@****.com>
> All the real tech aside, the fuel-air explosive mentioned in
> "Man&Machine" (damn silly place for it!) is a good place
> to start for what your little banger can actually shag&frag. Figure the #
> of kilograms based on the cargo factor you think
> it would take up, and set the rating based on the cost of the radioactive
> element (real world about 2 mil a kilo, minimum).
> That would make a rating of about 282, with the weight of the
> Molecular/background count rearranger being the additional
> factor in determining how much smacketh is layethed down.

Well, my problems with FAE in SR have been summed up before ;) Also, note
that with the yield of even podunk tacnukes you're still talking a WHOLE
LOTTA damage. Simply put SRs system does not have a prayer of representing
that much damage, so you're entirely up to using descriptions to say what
happened. You COULD use the pretty good GURPS rules and convert to SR
damages but the damage at ground zero is pretty funny:

In GURPS a 1 kT weapon does 12d x 2,000,000 (yes 2 MILLION) in concussion
damage. Quarter damage every 128 yards from detonation.Flash damage is 20%
of the base damage in standard atmospheric conditions (although note that is
considered far too high). Exceptionally clear days double the flash damage
and hazy days reduce it.

Fully sealed armor provides protection from the concussion effects, unsealed
armor will NOT (even against FAE and thermobaric explosions).

GURPS quick and dirty fallout meter is 800 x 200 meters contaminated if
groundburst for a .1 kT nuke with the same amount drifting downwind as
fallout. double the size for every tenfold increase in yield. Then you worry
about the radiation...

You can also find some realistic rules at
http://gurpsnet.sjgames.com/Archive/Hardware/Explosives/nuclear.damage and
you could possibly use my GURPS to SR conversion, although at this scale its
usually better to say "You are DEAD!"

> Or you can simply sum up the damage with a snappy quote.
>
> "If he's still in there, he ain't happy." (crappy movie, good line)

Hey, I liked that movie. We got a lot of good quotes out of that movie ;)
And yes I know it was not *cough* realistic heh

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 11
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:04:35 -0700
From: "Augustus" <shadowrun@*********.net>
> In my upcoming Post Apocalypse campaign, I thought about areas where there
> was no mana on the planet... life was dead there and the flow of mana
> might/is corrupted... saying that spells fail, magic items become inert,
> etc... would be a given, but what would happen to things that require a
> certain level of mana (metahumans, paranormals, spirits, dragons) if they
> entered such an area.

Probably the same thing that happens when they go into space, usually
nothing. Dual-natured critters are probably SOL but them's the breaks!
People born in such areas will most likely NOT express into metahumans or
Awakened critters (this is hinted at in some books talking about space IIRC)
but if they enter a mana active area they would/could express (goblinize).

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 12
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Question for the gearheads
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:48:00 -0400
Tzeentch wrote:

>
> In GURPS a 1 kT weapon does 12d x 2,000,000 (yes 2 MILLION) in concussion
> damage. Quarter damage every 128 yards from detonation.Flash damage is 20%
> of the base damage in standard atmospheric conditions (although note that is
> considered far too high). Exceptionally clear days double the flash damage
> and hazy days reduce it.
>

GM: Uh. . . .resist . . .let's see. . .carry the two. . . a couple thousand D
with , oh, let's say a quarter million overdamage.
Player: Can I burn karma pool?
GM: <egmg>
Player: I'll take that as a no.

--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
Message no. 13
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:22:49 -0500
From: David Lowe
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 1:24 PM

> 1) Is it realisitic to have a warhead, or partial warhead, that will
> fit into a container approx .5m high x .5m wide x 2.5m long, a la the
> George Clooney film The Peacemaker? I don't need a backpack "pocket"
> nuke, the storyline will accomdate getting a warhead that size where
> I need it.

This isn't meant to sound disrespectful to the gearheads or anything, but
the fact is I'm a fiction writer: Who cares? It's reasonably plausible
(perhaps not realistic or even truly possible, but it's plausible), and it
fits the dramatic needs of the storyline. Take a bit of license and run
with it.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:22:53 -0500
From: Arclight
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 1:44 PM

> > What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large city? Let
> > me 'splain further.
>
> Take a look :
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html

Oh, cool! This could be really useful....

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 15
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:33:01 -0500
From: Tzeentch
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:25 PM

> Well for one thing the background count for the entire area would shoot
> through the roof. you might to even see that ground zero is a mana warp
> due to the annihilation of all lifeforms (even atmospheric bacteria) in
> the area. This will go away over time.

A long time; I believe that Nagasaki and Hiroshima are still mentioned as
having horrific BGC somewhere in MITS.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 16
From: David Lowe dlowe@*********.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:02:23 -0700
I care. Yes, it's fiction. Yes, the needs of the plot should drive the
storyline, but I want to have at least some basis in reality. If a 1kt
warhead would level the entire bay area, or if it would just wipe a few
city blocks, I would like to know that. IMHO good fiction needs to be
plausible, otherwise you're just making stuff up to fit a plot.

Actually, that link is perfect. I've been blowing up ex-girlfriends' houses
all afternoon.

D.


>> 1) Is it realisitic to have a warhead, or partial warhead, that will
>> fit into a container approx .5m high x .5m wide x 2.5m long, a la the
>> George Clooney film The Peacemaker? I don't need a backpack "pocket"
>> nuke, the storyline will accomdate getting a warhead that size where
>> I need it.
>
>This isn't meant to sound disrespectful to the gearheads or anything, but
>the fact is I'm a fiction writer: Who cares? It's reasonably plausible
>(perhaps not realistic or even truly possible, but it's plausible), and it
>fits the dramatic needs of the storyline. Take a bit of license and run
>with it.
>
>--
>Patrick E. Goodman
>remo@***.net
>"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe

David R. Lowe
Lowe Photography

650.714.1862

dlowe@****.com
http://www.lowephoto.com
Message no. 17
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:32:32 -0500
On Tue, 16 May 2000 18:22:53 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
> From: Arclight
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 1:44 PM
>
> > > What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large city? Let
> > > me 'splain further.
> >
> > Take a look :
> >
> > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html
>
> Oh, cool! This could be really useful....

Hey, how big was the blast in Chicago? :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 18
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:32:03 -0500
:1) Is it realisitic to have a warhead, or partial warhead, that will fit
:into a container approx .5m high x .5m wide x 2.5m long, a la the George
:Clooney film The Peacemaker? I don't need a backpack "pocket" nuke, the
:storyline will accomdate getting a warhead that size where I need it.

Easily, for many modern devices. I don't think any of them are bigger
than that, in fact, and even a primative "terrorist" nuke could be that
small.

:2) With that warhead in mind, what would it do?

:I have jpegs posted at http://www.lowephoto.com/games/sr/maps/ that show
:where I'm planning to do this. Keep in mind that there are two major
:bridges within 5k of either side of the bridge, and the first mile or so
:inland is landfill.

There's LOTS of survivalest websites and books that can give you that
info, I'll bet. You didn't give enough info to base such a determination
on- it will vary by bomb type (neutron vs fusion vs regualr fision) and by
megatonage. If the bridges are not to close, I think they would probably
survive, especially since SanFranciso bridges are "earthquake proof", but it
depends on the megatonage and detonation profile (air vs ground).

Mongoose

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Message no. 19
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:22:17 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
> Hey, how big was the blast in Chicago? :)

Well, I just picked up "Bug City" and was reading that very section.
(Really!)

The Cermak Blast didn't behave like a standard tacnuke. It was a
briefcase-sized weapon, with a yield of "less than a kiloton."

Here's the quote from the book:

"Despite the relatively small yield of the bomb, theoretically the
detonation should have destroyed the plant and most nonhardened structures
within a radius of three-quarters of a kilometer. It didn't. Take a look for
yourself -- just don't get much closer than five hundred meters. The blast
effects at 200 meters resembled the expected effects at 1,000 meters. A
crater marks the center of the blast, so I think we can safely assume the
bomb detonated as it was designed to. Additionally, pulverized debris covers
an area immediately around the center of the blast, though in most
circumstances, debris would be blown outward away from the center. the
crater itself offers a puzzle; its radius is slightly less than 100 meters,
but its *deep*. No one has measured it yet, but the hole extends much
farther down than it should."

It goes on to say that beyond 150 meters of the blast site, radiation
readings are negligible. Within 100 meters, however, the radiation indicates
a *20-kiloton* weapon.

I don't know what it means -- according to "Burning Bright" it actually was
a nuke -- but I haven't come across anything that would indicate the actual
nature of the blast. Of course, I'm not really up on my shadowlore -- I'm
getting back into the game after an extended hiatus in the Fourth World.
*grin* Others may be able to fill in more details, but since I had the
relevant info handy, I figured I'd post it.

-- Josh
Message no. 20
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
> > Hey, how big was the blast in Chicago? :)
>
> Well, I just picked up "Bug City" and was reading
that very section. (Really!)
>
> The Cermak Blast didn't behave like a standard
tacnuke. It was a briefcase-sized weapon, with a yield
of "less than a kiloton."
>
> Here's the quote from the book:
>
> "Despite the relatively small yield of the bomb,
theoretically the detonation should have destroyed the
plant and most nonhardened structures within a radius
of three-quarters of a kilometer. It didn't. Take a
look for yourself -- just don't get much closer than
five hundred meters. The blast effects at 200 meters
resembled the expected effects at 1,000 meters. A
crater marks the center of the blast, so I think we
can safely assume the bomb detonated as it was
designed to. Additionally, pulverized debris covers an
area immediately around the center of the blast,
though in most circumstances, debris would be blown
outward away from the center. the crater itself offers
a puzzle; its radius is slightly less than 100 meters,
but its *deep*. No one has measured it yet, but the
hole extends much farther down than it should."
>
> It goes on to say that beyond 150 meters of the
blast site, radiation readings are negligible. Within
100 meters, however, the radiation indicates a
*20-kiloton* weapon.
>
> I don't know what it means -- according to "Burning
Bright" it actually was a nuke -- but I haven't come
across anything that would indicate the actual nature
of the blast. Of course, I'm not really up on my
shadowlore -- I'm getting back into the game after an
extended hiatus in the Fourth World. *grin* Others may
be able to fill in more details, but since I had the
relevant info handy, I figured I'd post it.
> -- Josh

What you seem to be forgetting, Josh, is that there
was a freaking big magical shield around the hive and
the bomb detonated INSIDE the hive. I suppose the
reasoning is that this concentrated the force (which
is why the hole goes down so far - it was the only way
for the blast TO go), the radiation and the
devestation (which is why it looks like a higher yield
bomb close-up).

It's like that mage pissing inside his personal
barrier spell - he soaks his legs and gets all stinky
(whereas normally he'd only spatter a few drops on
himself and not smell too bad :) ) because the urine
can't get out - so, up close and inside the barrier,
it looks like he did a lot more than he really did.

Gross, I know, but I think you get the point. :)

*Doc' considers getting a bladder reservoir and a
high-pressure cyberpenis installed as a secret weapon...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 21
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:48:37 -0500
From: Alfredo B Alves
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 7:33 PM

> Hey, how big was the blast in Chicago? :)

The Cermak Blast looked, if I recall correctly, like a 20-kiloton warhead.
Whether that was the magic involved or what is hard to say. If 20 ktons is
the case, it was significantly larger than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima
and Nagasaki in 1945 (in the neighborhood of 12.5 ktons, IIRC); look what
*those* puny fraggers did....

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 22
From: Edward Huyer arcanum@*****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:22:36 -0400
> In GURPS a 1 kT weapon does 12d x 2,000,000 (yes 2 MILLION) in concussion
> damage. Quarter damage every 128 yards from detonation.Flash damage is 20%
> of the base damage in standard atmospheric conditions (although note that
is
> considered far too high). Exceptionally clear days double the flash damage
> and hazy days reduce it.
>
> Fully sealed armor provides protection from the concussion effects,
unsealed
> armor will NOT (even against FAE and thermobaric explosions).
>
> GURPS quick and dirty fallout meter is 800 x 200 meters contaminated if
> groundburst for a .1 kT nuke with the same amount drifting downwind as
> fallout. double the size for every tenfold increase in yield. Then you
worry
> about the radiation...

I'm personally of the mind, when dealing with nukes at SR tech level, to
just say: Ok, ground blast. Crater, everything vaporized: 3 block radius.
Level everything in a 15 block radius. If you are outside that radius, then
we can start talking damage codes. Otherwise you are just dead. Of course,
with the winds, serious radiation and fallout over most of San Fran and the
surrounding countryside...Then you have blindness if you happen to be
looking in the right direction...

This is by no means scientific, just a gut reaction to detonating a small
(~1kt?) tactical nuke in San Francisco. The damage/distance ratios are
probably off. Keep in mind that hills will limit the effect of the blast
somewhat (the ones that don't get vaporized, that is).

Arcanum
Edward Huyer
arcanum@*****.com
ICQ# 1667646
-----
"There is no spoon."
fnord
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
> > > What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a
large city? Let me 'splain further.
> >
> > Take a look :
> >
>
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html
>
> Oh, cool! This could be really useful....
> Patrick E. Goodman

It...could?

*Doc' makes a mental note to stay far, far, far, FAR
away from Patrick's games...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 24
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Question for the gearheads
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:57:03 -0400 (EDT)
Edward Huyer <arcanum@*****.com> writes:
> I'm personally of the mind, when dealing with nukes at SR tech level, to
> just say: Ok, ground blast. Crater, everything vaporized: 3 block radius.
> Level everything in a 15 block radius. If you are outside that radius, then
> we can start talking damage codes. Otherwise you are just dead. Of course,
> with the winds, serious radiation and fallout over most of San Fran and the
> surrounding countryside...Then you have blindness if you happen to be
> looking in the right direction...

I thought people were trying to determine what kinds of
buildings would survive, not people. :)

> "There is no spoon."

There is no spoon, only Zuul!

Mark
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:50:54 +0200
According to David Lowe, at 11:23 on 16 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large city? Let me 'splain
> further.

That depends on a great many factors, like how powerful the weapon is
("tactical nuclear warhead" can be anything up to hundreds of kilotons or
more), where it's detonated, what the buildings are made of, etc.

> 1) Is it realisitic to have a warhead, or partial warhead, that will fit
> into a container approx .5m high x .5m wide x 2.5m long, a la the George
> Clooney film The Peacemaker? I don't need a backpack "pocket" nuke, the
> storyline will accomdate getting a warhead that size where I need it.

Yes. Nuclear warheads exist for 155 mm artillery shells, which are
(obviously) approximately 15 cm in diameter and maybe half a meter long
(not to mention they have a pointed, streamlined shape, so they're nowhere
near cylindrical). The larger your container, the more powerful the weapon
can be, though.

> 2) With that warhead in mind, what would it do?
> I have jpegs posted at http://www.lowephoto.com/games/sr/maps/ that show
> where I'm planning to do this. Keep in mind that there are two major
> bridges within 5k of either side of the bridge, and the first mile or so
> inland is landfill.

I haven't looked at the map (I'm offline ATM), but I'm assuming that you
intend to blow up a bridge with it. Which should be fairly easy if you
detonate the nuke on said bridge -- the blast alone will probably wreck it
completely, even without the heat released by the detonation.

Depending on the weapon's yield, it will also destroy large amounts of
property nearby, though if the first 1.5 km is landfill, there won't be
much to destroy there. How far the blast actually reaches depends (again)
on the weapon's power, though, so it's hard to give concrete values.

Also, if you detonate it on the ground you'll have LOTS of fallout
(material sucked into the fireball, irradiated there, and deposited in the
blast radius) that will make the area uninhabitable for years to come.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:50:54 +0200
According to Grey, at 12:12 on 16 May 00, the word on the street was...

> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html
>
> Follow the link above, enter the city you want to blow
> up (you can even enter the exact address that the bomb
> goes off), and have fun!

Nice site, but fairly useless for any practical purposes like designing an
adventure...

> You can pick either a 1 megaton (about the size of the Hiroshima
> hydrogen bomb) or a 25 megaton (about 2000 times more powerfull).

The bomb at Hiroshima was about 15 kilotons, not 1 megaton, and it
certainly wasn't a hydrogen bomb, as those were only first tested several
years after WWII (1953 I believe, but I'm not 100% certain).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question for the gearheads
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:50:54 +0200
According to NaCl(aq), at 18:48 on 16 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> GM: Uh. . . .resist . . .let's see. . .carry the two. . . a couple thousand D
> with , oh, let's say a quarter million overdamage.
> Player: Can I burn karma pool?
> GM: <egmg>
> Player: I'll take that as a no.

Player: Then I'll use the Hand of God rule instead.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:02:59 -0500
From: Rand Ratinac
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 11:56 PM

> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html
> >
> > Oh, cool! This could be really useful....
>
> It...could?

Perhaps.

> *Doc' makes a mental note to stay far, far, far, FAR
> away from Patrick's games...*

Oh, this isn't necessarily something I'd do in a game...but some of the SR
fiction I'm working on is another matter entirely.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 29
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Question for the gearheads
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:55:59 -0400
Gurth wrote:

> According to NaCl(aq), at 18:48 on 16 May 00, the word on the street
> was...
>
> > GM: Uh. . . .resist . . .let's see. . .carry the two. . . a couple thousand D
> > with , oh, let's say a quarter million overdamage.
> > Player: Can I burn karma pool?
> > GM: <egmg>
> > Player: I'll take that as a no.
>
> Player: Then I'll use the Hand of God rule instead.
>
>

GM: You FAIL!



--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
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e>e+++
h>h+ r--- !y+**
Message no. 30
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:58:15 -0700 (PDT)
David Lowe <dlowe@*********.com> wrote:
>
> What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large city? Let me
'splain
> further.
>
> In my campaign, said warhead might be detonated in San Francisco,
sometime
> in the near future. Having only pop-culture references to go from,
I want
> to know a couple of things:
>

You know, the odd thing is, I have actually had a small nuclear
weapon
detonated in a large city in one of my campaigns. the even stranger
part? It was San Fransisco. Even stranger than that? My blast was
centered only a mile or so from yours...

Isn't life weird?

-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++


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Message no. 31
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:05:20 -0700 (PDT)
Grey <metis76@*****.com> wrote:

>
> goes off), and have fun! You can pick either a 1
> megaton (about the size of the Hiroshima hydrogen
> bomb) or a 25 megaton (about 2000 times more
> powerfull).
>
> Grey

Not to pick nits...well, okay, but just one...the bomb that was
dropped on Hiroshima was not 1 Megaton. If I remember correctly, it
wasn't anywhere near that and had a yield measured in kilotons (and
not very many, at that). I'm sorry that I don't have an exact number,
but a 1 Megaton blast is a whole LOT more powerful than the one
dropped on Hiroshima.

-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++



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Message no. 32
From: David Lowe dlowe@*********.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:30:14 -0700
Maybe SR gms just hate San FranciscoŠ

Actually, since we all live here, it made sense for me to base our campaign
here. It's a lot easer to set the tone when everyone at the table already
has a frame of reference as to what's really there.

D.


>You know, the odd thing is, I have actually had a small nuclear
>weapon
>detonated in a large city in one of my campaigns. the even stranger
>part? It was San Fransisco. Even stranger than that? My blast was
>centered only a mile or so from yours...
>
>Isn't life weird?
David R. Lowe
Lowe Photography

650.714.1862

dlowe@****.com
http://www.lowephoto.com
Message no. 33
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:18:17 +0200
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:58:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com>

> You know, the odd thing is, I have actually had a small nuclear
> weapon
> detonated in a large city in one of my campaigns. the even stranger
> part? It was San Fransisco. Even stranger than that? My blast was
> centered only a mile or so from yours...
>
> Isn't life weird?

The place that attracted the greatest number of nukes in RPG-worlds is
probably located in south pacific, and bombing effects are likely to
last for 1D12 rounds of painful dematerialization, per standard rules...

Hopefully, SR GMs have ways to cleverly handle nuclear weapons and stay
away from ludicrous "we nuked Cthulhu !" situations. But that's just a
(not so) personnal hatred.:)
Message no. 34
From: The Dave minushuman308@*******.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:37:40 GMT
>From: David Lowe <dlowe@*********.com>

>What would a tactical nuclear warhead do to a large city?

The big question is what the power yield of the warhead is. The bombs
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 12 and 10 Megaton bombs,
respectively. From these yields, we observe about 1 city block/megaton
demolished due to flame, 2 blocks/megaton due to the superhurricane
resulting from the heat blast, and 4-5 blocks/megaton from the shock wave.
With a 10 megaton bomb, a man standing on the ground 50 city blocks away
would probably have his internal organs ripped from their holds, whereas a
man 10 blocks away would combust so quickly he wouldn't know what hit him -
in Hiroshima they found skeletons flash fried into the sides of buildings.
Cool.

Keep in mind that modern warheads are of MUCH higher yields, sometimes
rating at 75-100 megatons just for air-delivered units. Also that the flash
of light from a nuclear blast renders an observer blind.

Wish I could remember more from my high school physics class ;-)

Take it easy,

The Dave

"I'm an outcast, riding into town alone
I've got wanderlust branded deeper than the bone"

-- Megadeth, "Wanderlust"

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Message no. 35
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:47:20 +0900
On 5/19/00 3:37 AM, The Dave at minushuman308@*******.com wrote:

[snip]
> With a 10 megaton bomb, a man standing on the ground 50 city blocks away
> would probably have his internal organs ripped from their holds, whereas a
> man 10 blocks away would combust so quickly he wouldn't know what hit him -
> in Hiroshima they found skeletons flash fried into the sides of buildings.
> Cool.
Cool?!?!?!

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
The best navigators never know where they're going until they get there...
and then they're still not quite sure.
--Jimmy Buffett
Message no. 36
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:54:20 +0300
NaCl(aq) wrote:
>
> Gurth wrote:
>
> > According to NaCl(aq), at 18:48 on 16 May 00, the word on the street
> > was...
> >
> > > GM: Uh. . . .resist . . .let's see. . .carry the two. . . a couple thousand
D
> > > with , oh, let's say a quarter million overdamage.
> > > Player: Can I burn karma pool?
> > > GM: <egmg>
> > > Player: I'll take that as a no.
> >
> > Player: Then I'll use the Hand of God rule instead.
> >
> >
>
> GM: You FAIL!
>
Better yet:
GM:"hand of God, eh? Well...God appears merciful today and will just let
you die instead of letting you die of skin and lung cancer after a
couple of years of starvation, lonelines and pain in the middle of a
nuclear winter!"
Player:"..."
Message no. 37
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:44:38 +0200
According to The Dave, at 18:37 on 18 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> The big question is what the power yield of the warhead is. The bombs
> dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 12 and 10 Megaton bombs,

As has been said before in this thread, it's KILOtons, and the yields of
those two weapons has never really been established IIRC Somewhere between
10 and 15 kT each is the best figure arrived at, I believe.

> respectively. From these yields, we observe about 1 city block/megaton
> demolished due to flame, 2 blocks/megaton due to the superhurricane
> resulting from the heat blast, and 4-5 blocks/megaton from the shock wave.

Those kinds of assessments only work for a given yield. When the yield
increases, the relative destruction per kiloton goes down -- IOW, a 2 MT
weapon won't destroy twice as much as a 1 MT weapon.

> With a 10 megaton bomb, a man standing on the ground 50 city blocks away
> would probably have his internal organs ripped from their holds, whereas a
> man 10 blocks away would combust so quickly he wouldn't know what hit him -
> in Hiroshima they found skeletons flash fried into the sides of buildings.
> Cool.

No, hot :)

> Keep in mind that modern warheads are of MUCH higher yields, sometimes
> rating at 75-100 megatons just for air-delivered units. Also that the flash
> of light from a nuclear blast renders an observer blind.

It is, however, not very likely that anyone wil lhave access to a nuclear
weapon that powerful unless they happen to be capable of building hydrogen
bombs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
when she told me, "mad and meaningless as ever"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 38
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 04:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
<SNIP>
> > In my campaign, said warhead might be detonated in
> San Francisco,
> sometime
> > in the near future. Having only pop-culture
> references to go from,
> I want
> > to know a couple of things:
> >
>
> You know, the odd thing is, I have actually had a
> small nuclear
> weapon
> detonated in a large city in one of my campaigns.
> the even stranger
> part? It was San Fransisco. Even stranger than that?
> My blast was
> centered only a mile or so from yours...
>
> Isn't life weird?
>
> -Zebulin-Magby-

Isn't it funny how nuclear bombers think alike?
*cheezy smile here*

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 39
From: Robert Blackberg Robert.Blackberg@***.fiserv.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:55:13 -0400
> > You know, the odd thing is, I have actually had a
> > small nuclear
> > weapon
> > detonated in a large city in one of my campaigns.
> > the even stranger
> > part? It was San Fransisco. Even stranger than that?
> > My blast was
> > centered only a mile or so from yours...
> >
> > Isn't life weird?
> >
> > -Zebulin-Magby-
>
> Isn't it funny how nuclear bombers think alike?
> *cheezy smile here*


Man, you folks are keeping the NSA analysts busy today. ;-)

Robert (no cool tagline, just a plain line_______________)
Message no. 40
From: The Dave minushuman308@*******.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:35:49 GMT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> > Cool.
>
>No, hot :)

I stand corrected :P

The Dave

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Message no. 41
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:35:05 +1200 (NZST)
On Thu, 18 May 2000, Achille Autran wrote:

> The place that attracted the greatest number of nukes in RPG-worlds is
> probably located in south pacific, and bombing effects are likely to
> last for 1D12 rounds of painful dematerialization, per standard rules...
>
> Hopefully, SR GMs have ways to cleverly handle nuclear weapons and stay
> away from ludicrous "we nuked Cthulhu !" situations. But that's just a
> (not so) personnal hatred.:)
Hmm. Cthulhu lies "dead but sleeping". What effect would a nuke have on
Cthulhu? He regenerates ludicrously fast, so damage effects would be
negligible. How about the inevitable rise in the background count in the
area? Sounds to me like an effective way for cultists to wake up Cthulhu.

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 42
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Question for the gearheads.
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 09:39:43 GMT
>From: Keith Duthie <psycho@*********.co.nz>
>On Thu, 18 May 2000, Achille Autran wrote:
> > Hopefully, SR GMs have ways to cleverly handle nuclear weapons and stay
> > away from ludicrous "we nuked Cthulhu !" situations. But that's just a
> > (not so) personnal hatred.:)
>Hmm. Cthulhu lies "dead but sleeping". What effect would a nuke have on
>Cthulhu? He regenerates ludicrously fast, so damage effects would be
>negligible. How about the inevitable rise in the background count in the
>area? Sounds to me like an effective way for cultists to wake up Cthulhu.

This is bugging me now; in two days I have heard Cthulhu mentioned, once
here and once at
http://shadowrun.html.com/archive/ArchiveShowArticle.php3?IDP3
And I still have no idea what he(?) is, he's something from ED right?

Phil
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