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Message no. 1
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alexander Case)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:58:02 -0800
Alright, awhile back, in one of the groups I was in, the GM would not allow
the characters to purchase Machine Guns (Assault rifles in any form yes,
but not Machine Guns, not even for my rigger to mount in his vehicle).
However, I had a thought recently for a future game, modding my rigger's
vehicle to fire carry two belt-fed automatic shotguns. So my question is,
is it possible to modify an automatic shotgun (like a Pancor Jackhammer) so
it is belt-fed?
Message no. 2
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:41:38 -0700
'Would you MIND not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons pleas?'


-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Alexander
Case
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:58 AM
To: shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.

Alright, awhile back, in one of the groups I was in, the GM would not
allow
the characters to purchase Machine Guns (Assault rifles in any form yes,

but not Machine Guns, not even for my rigger to mount in his vehicle).
However, I had a thought recently for a future game, modding my rigger's

vehicle to fire carry two belt-fed automatic shotguns. So my question
is,
is it possible to modify an automatic shotgun (like a Pancor Jackhammer)
so
it is belt-fed?

Cant do it without violating your GMs rule. What you can do is take a
shotgun, give it a huge Drum, and longer barrel and recoil comp and
there you go. Basically a drum or box fed heavy shotgun, BUT not a
machinegun.

Scott
Message no. 3
From: dhyde79@***.net (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:05:30 -0600
> Cant do it without violating your GMs rule. What you can do is take a
> shotgun, give it a huge Drum, and longer barrel and recoil comp and
> there you go. Basically a drum or box fed heavy shotgun, BUT not a
> machinegun.


Ok, there's only one flaw to that, "box fed" is belt fed, the box just holds
the belt of ammo, and as far as whether or not it is possible, I would
suggest asking your GM, as each GM has their own take on it, however, if it
was originally magazine fed, I would say that it's possible to convert it to
belt feed....maybe.....
Message no. 4
From: alanchambers@*******.net (Alan Chambers)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:19:11 -0500
> > Cant do it without violating your GMs rule. What you can do is take a
> > shotgun, give it a huge Drum, and longer barrel and recoil comp and
> > there you go. Basically a drum or box fed heavy shotgun, BUT not a
> > machinegun.
>
>
> Ok, there's only one flaw to that, "box fed" is belt fed, the box
> just holds
> the belt of ammo, and as far as whether or not it is possible, I would
> suggest asking your GM, as each GM has their own take on it,
> however, if it
> was originally magazine fed, I would say that it's possible to
> convert it to
> belt feed....maybe.....
>
Your biggest problem will be the plastic shells melting in the weapon after
prolonged fire.
Alan
Message no. 5
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alexander Case)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:52:43 -0800
Well, so far, from what I understand my GMs problem was more with how high
the damage was for the LMG (we were running SR 1e). That game unfortunately
broke up due to RL. I recently came up with the concept of a belt-fed
Jackhammer after reading about the standard Jackhammer in a firearms
splatbook for a different role playing game several years ago, and again a
couple days ago while playing Max Payne. The mounted on a vehicle part came
while watching Die Another Day.

So, my main question is not as much will my GM allow it, but more "Is it
Possible"?

At 05:05 PM 12/16/2003, you wrote:
>Ok, there's only one flaw to that, "box fed" is belt fed, the box just holds
>the belt of ammo, and as far as whether or not it is possible, I would
>suggest asking your GM, as each GM has their own take on it, however, if it
>was originally magazine fed, I would say that it's possible to convert it to
>belt feed....maybe.....
Message no. 6
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:03:41 +0000
In article <6.0.1.1.0.20031216104531.03dbedd8@********.verizon.net>,
Alexander Case <alex.case@*******.net> writes
>So my question is, is it possible to modify an automatic shotgun (like
>a Pancor Jackhammer) so it is belt-fed?

Basically, no. Shotgun cartridges aren't suited to be linked, fed,
delinked and loaded. Childers looked at the problem in the early 1970s
but never got past prototype stage.
>

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:37:37 +0100
According to Alexander Case, on Wednesday 17 December 2003 05:52 the word
on the street was...

> So, my main question is not as much will my GM allow it, but more "Is it
> Possible"?

It should be possible, but I have a feeling it might not be as easy to make
as a belt-fed machine gun. As has been mentioned, the plastic casings
could start to melt (which you could avoid by using custom-made rounds
with brass cases, for example) and you'd also have to build the feed
mechanism and belt from scratch, because there isn't really anything you
could easily adapt to fit the caliber.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you don't ask questions then you don't know why
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:03:47 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> It should be possible, but I have a feeling it might not be as easy to
> make
> as a belt-fed machine gun. As has been mentioned, the plastic casings
> could start to melt (which you could avoid by using custom-made rounds
> with brass cases, for example) and you'd also have to build the feed
> mechanism and belt from scratch, because there isn't really anything
> you
> could easily adapt to fit the caliber.

I seem to recall the H&K CAWS uses brass casings. The gun never went
to production, but you can assume that by 2060 other guns of that kind
will exist and be mass-produced (SR shotguns are all at least SA, and
most handle BF as well, and IIRC brass casings are better for that kind
of guns).

Besides, IIRC Rigger 3 states that all vehicle-mounted 'normal'
weapons are modified to be belt-fed, and the entry for the weapon
conversion kit doesn't mention any limits on what guns you can use it
on. So according to the rules, yes, a vehicle-mounted, belt-fed shotgun
is possible.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 9
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:15:05 -0700
> Cant do it without violating your GMs rule. What you can do is take a
> shotgun, give it a huge Drum, and longer barrel and recoil comp and
> there you go. Basically a drum or box fed heavy shotgun, BUT not a
> machinegun.


Ok, there's only one flaw to that, "box fed" is belt fed, the box just
holds
the belt of ammo, and as far as whether or not it is possible, I would
suggest asking your GM, as each GM has their own take on it, however, if
it
was originally magazine fed, I would say that it's possible to convert
it to
belt feed....maybe.....

No its not, you simply use a half moon 'box magazine like the made for
the Mere Mont M-60.

Scott
Message no. 10
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:16:12 -0700
Your biggest problem will be the plastic shells melting in the weapon
after
prolonged fire.
Alan

Nope use all brass shells like the ones that were pioneered in the
Atchison assault 12 and or CAWS

Scott
Message no. 11
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:20:45 -0700
Well, so far, from what I understand my GMs problem was more with how
high
the damage was for the LMG (we were running SR 1e). That game
unfortunately
broke up due to RL. I recently came up with the concept of a belt-fed
Jackhammer after reading about the standard Jackhammer in a firearms
splatbook for a different role playing game several years ago, and again
a
couple days ago while playing Max Payne. The mounted on a vehicle part
came
while watching Die Another Day.

So, my main question is not as much will my GM allow it, but more "Is it

Possible"?

Pancor is a pos, if only for the reload times. You would have to remake
the entire receiver and bolt assembly for it to work, and my original
way was easier.

Scott
Message no. 12
From: dhyde79@***.net (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:26:28 -0600
> It should be possible, but I have a feeling it might not be as easy to make
> as a belt-fed machine gun. As has been mentioned, the plastic casings
> could start to melt (which you could avoid by using custom-made rounds
> with brass cases, for example) and you'd also have to build the feed
> mechanism and belt from scratch, because there isn't really anything you
> could easily adapt to fit the caliber.


Close, but not quite.....if you could get full brass 20ga or 12ga I don't
recall which but one is .50 exactly, which would theoretically allow for the
.50BMG links to be used.....(again, theoretically, it's been a while since I
got to play with either an M2 or an M82A1 to remember exactly how large the
casing is on the .50bmg in comparison to the rest of the round.....but, I
would say that the larger shotguns could use that link system
Message no. 13
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:00:20 +0100
According to Scott, on Thursday 18 December 2003 00:16 the word on the
street was...

> > Your biggest problem will be the plastic shells melting in the weapon
> > after prolonged fire.
>
> Nope use all brass shells like the ones that were pioneered in the
> Atchison assault 12 and or CAWS

At any rate this should not really be a problem in SR, seeing as how we've
got belt-fed caseless weapons. Even if plastic-cased rounds would melt,
you could just design your belt-fed shotgun to use caseless ones instead.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you don't ask questions then you don't know why
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:04:18 +0100
According to Scott, on Thursday 18 December 2003 00:20 the word on the
street was...

> Pancor is a pos, if only for the reload times. You would have to remake
> the entire receiver and bolt assembly for it to work, and my original
> way was easier.

Actually, I think the Jackhammer design would lend itself better to being
belt-fed than most other shotguns. Think about it: it uses what is
basically a revolver magazine which you can take out and swap for a new
one. So, you could design a "magazine" into which the belt enters at the
side or bottom, and which, driven by the weapon's mechanism that normally
revolves the magazine, delinks the rounds and places into a chamber at the
top of the same mechanism. If you use caseless rounds, you wouldn't even
need to worry about the added complexity of ejecting empty casings.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you don't ask questions then you don't know why
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:05:51 +0100
According to Derek Hyde, on Thursday 18 December 2003 03:26 the word on the
street was...

> Close, but not quite.....if you could get full brass 20ga or 12ga I
> don't recall which but one is .50 exactly, which would theoretically
> allow for the .50BMG links to be used.....

Yeah, you're right -- I just measured the bottom of a .50 cal casing, and
it's roughly 18.5 mm across, about the same as a 20-gauge shotgun casing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you don't ask questions then you don't know why
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:30:21 -0700
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Gurth
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 3:04 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.

According to Scott, on Thursday 18 December 2003 00:20 the word on the
street was...

> Pancor is a pos, if only for the reload times. You would have to
remake
> the entire receiver and bolt assembly for it to work, and my original
> way was easier.

Gurth then said

Actually, I think the Jackhammer design would lend itself better to
being
belt-fed than most other shotguns. Think about it: it uses what is
basically a revolver magazine which you can take out and swap for a new
one. So, you could design a "magazine" into which the belt enters at the

side or bottom, and which, driven by the weapon's mechanism that
normally
revolves the magazine, delinks the rounds and places into a chamber at
the
top of the same mechanism. If you use caseless rounds, you wouldn't even

need to worry about the added complexity of ejecting empty casings.


Thought the entire purpose was to get rid of the belt feeding as it was
what the GM disliked and used as a qualifier for disallowed weapons. My
initial idea made it a form got spring loaded box magazine ala Tommy gun
style. As for the Pancor, its main purpose for being built the way it
was at least to what I have in my soldier of fortune review was one a
bull pup style shotgun and two ability to go from lethal and non lethal
rounds by simply pulling out the cylinder holding ammo., or even
inserting rounds in an empty chamber. I doubt a bullpup configuration
with this style of drum cassette would work well, but it is as you say
possible. There shouldn't be as need to delink rounds as the magazine
is spring fed, Thus negating the purpose for using the mechanism. KISS
principal my Brother.:) Ceaseless round themselves would resolve any
problems with other than how much you could put into cassette, how to
mount it and how to absorb recoil:)

Scott


'Would you MIND not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons pleas?'
Message no. 17
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alexander Case)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:54:03 -0800
Nope, nothing of the sort. The GM didn't give a reason, but I had a
sneakin' hunch that the GM didn't like his players' characters that well
armed (in other words, the GM didn't like the damage code). And, as I said
before, I'm not with that GM anymore. However, I did come up with the
concept recently, with the thought of using it in a future game.

The GM in question anyway was a bit... odd anyway. For instance, even
thought this was a 1E campaign, he had the 3e SR Companion, and had us use
the Edges and Flaws in there, including literacy. However, he didn't make
this too clear during character creation. Thus, my Rigger was illiterate,
along with every other character in the team.

At 01:30 PM 12/18/2003, you wrote:
>Thought the entire purpose was to get rid of the belt feeding as it was
>what the GM disliked and used as a qualifier for disallowed weapons.
Message no. 18
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:04:21 +0100
According to Scott, on Thursday 18 December 2003 22:30 the word on the
street was...

> Thought the entire purpose was to get rid of the belt feeding as it was
> what the GM disliked and used as a qualifier for disallowed weapons. My
> initial idea made it a form got spring loaded box magazine ala Tommy gun
> style.

Which is much easier, definitely, although with a large enough capacity
you'll run into problems with spring strength and all that -- though it's
not something I'd mention to the GM if he sets silly rules like this one
apparently did ;)

> As for the Pancor, its main purpose for being built the way it
> was at least to what I have in my soldier of fortune review was one a
> bull pup style shotgun and two ability to go from lethal and non lethal
> rounds by simply pulling out the cylinder holding ammo., or even
> inserting rounds in an empty chamber.

AFAIK the Jackhammer had its rounds fixed in the cassettes, so they were
actually removable revolver cylinders.

> I doubt a bullpup configuration
> with this style of drum cassette would work well, but it is as you say
> possible.

My guess is that the main problem would be that the weapon can't provide
the power necessary to draw in the belt, delink a round, and chamber it
all from the recoil of a single cartridge via the drum revolving
mechanism. But hey, that's another thing I doubt I'd worry about for a
game like SR :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you don't ask questions then you don't know why
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Question for the gun people: Belt-Fed Shotgun.
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:05:54 +0100
According to Alexander Case, on Friday 19 December 2003 01:54 the word on
the street was...

> The GM in question anyway was a bit... odd anyway. For instance, even
> thought this was a 1E campaign, he had the 3e SR Companion, and had us
> use the Edges and Flaws in there, including literacy. However, he didn't
> make this too clear during character creation. Thus, my Rigger was
> illiterate, along with every other character in the team.

Sounds a bit odd, yes... I quickly discovered a similar problem with the
SRII Companion's version of the edges and flaws, namely that no character
had even a high-school education without the appropriate edge. We quickly
changed that, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you don't ask questions then you don't know why
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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