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From:	Blaze <Blaze@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Question - plot/game-ish
Date:	Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:51:57 +0000

Message no. 1 Hiya Guys & Gals :) Long time no speaky.

(Hello Spike - got over your tree leaf addiction yet?) <grin>

Anyway here's the problem.

We've been hired to find this dog called FrooFroo (please don't ask) so
far we've turned up zip on the dog, but there's this other problem that
seems to be prevelent.

OK, brief rundown.

Evidence to date indicates that the raid on the house that stole the dog
(very secure - electronic, magical (one mage) and physical coverage) was
undertaken by a cyberfreak using insider information, and possibly
assistance from someone inside the security teams.

So far we have two dead bodies, two prisoners (sec guards, non
important, but we're not sure what to do with them), and some
circumstantial evidence that indicates it was either the head of
security and/or his immediate inferior (2nd in command) working with an
outside team. We also suspect that there was some backing from a
corporation (HK-UK)
[General suspicion is that this may have something to do with arms
contracts]

Now, all the evidence we have is circumstantial, but pretty convincing,
that a conspiracy between one of the two afformentioned commanders, a
couple of staff members, and an outside team, maybe employed by HK-UK
stole the dog as an example to whomever is determining the arms contract
allotments, in a sort of "We can get the dog, we can get onto your
property - we can get to you" sort of thing.

The evidence. (briefly)

Three security team members spent some time working together in the
military (UK). One of the sec team appears to have a double - working
as a sec guard for Hilton Hotels International (he's dead, and we think
the cyberfreak is his double, working for (suspected) HK-UK. Three
other areas where the three members served also flag that they served on
raids, where HK-UK shortly thereafter won contracts. One member is dead,
assassinated (we think because he recognised the cyberfreak). Other
evidence is a bit loose, but involves the nefarious activities and
potential blackmail possibilities of other sec team members.

No magical evidence is avialable, and the security net over the property
has "holes" in it that could be monopolised by someone who knew about
them. We think planning for the snatch went on for about six months -
which coincides with an upgrade in security and the employment of two of
the suspects and some landscaping in the neighbours' garden (neighbours
are on holiday somewhere).

What I was wondering, is how you lot would deal with the evidence.

Would you take it to HK-UK, accuse them of conspiracy and attempting to
bias the judgement of a government minister in awarding a lucrative
contract, and hope the evidence holds up, pushing them for money?

Go to one of the two least suspect security heads, and leave it to them
to sort out?

Go to another, independant staff member with seniority and hope to gain
some payment for services from the owner of the property?

Find a dead dog, make it up to look like the old one, claim payment and
bugger off before anyone figured out what you'd stumbled onto?

All of the above?

None of the above?

Ideas?

Ta in advance for your invaluable help.... The last time I asked a
question here, your answers were extremely helpful, and it looks like
the old characters can retire - very rich :) <EPG>*

EPG = Evil Player Grin (see we can do it to) :)

--
Blaze
(Of no particular abode, and without a web address or net account) :)

Inside every old man, there's a child waiting to get out.

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Question - plot/game-ish
Date:	Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:58:41 -0500

Message no. 2 On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:51:57 +0000 Blaze <Blaze@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:

<<Hiya Guys & Gals :) Long time no speaky.>>

Hello, again.

<Froo-Froo, HK, et al snipped>

<<What I was wondering, is how you lot would deal with the evidence.>>

Ah...there's always a request:)

<<Would you take it to HK-UK, accuse them of conspiracy and attempting to
bias the judgement of a government minister in awarding a lucrative
contract, and hope the evidence holds up, pushing them for money?>>

I don't think I'd go this route. To easy to walk into a trap of some
variety, IMHO.

<<Go to one of the two least suspect security heads, and leave it to them
to sort out?>>

This might be a good route, especially if you can find a way to leave
them the info anonymously (though, if the sec person(s) turn out to be on
the take after all, it could create more problems than it solved).

<<Go to another, independant staff member with seniority and hope to gain
some payment for services from the owner of the property?>>

Not a bad idea, but probably one that could draw fire rather fast.

<<Find a dead dog, make it up to look like the old one, claim payment and
bugger off before anyone figured out what you'd stumbled onto?>>

This is probably the safest course of action, if you can manage it. If
you're feeling conscientious, pull this stunt and leave the evidence
behind to someone like the police or a media group or something (someone
you can be sure will investigate this) anonymously, so that you can't be
tied to it.

<<Ideas?>>

None at the moment, sorry.

<<Ta in advance for your invaluable help.... The last time I asked a
question here, your answers were extremely helpful, and it looks like the
old characters can retire - very rich :) <EPG>*>>

Good to hear it, I'd hate to think that you had leave all the gold there,
after all of the discussion on the list:)

<<EPG = Evil Player Grin (see we can do it to) :)>>

But you don't do it as well:)

--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Question - plot/game-ish
Date:	Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:11:08 GMT

Message no. 3 Blaze writes
>
Ok i assume you have been hired by the folks at the house and get
paid for bringing a dog back. I will assume that you might get a
bonus for telling them who took it, how and why but only a bonus.

> So far we have two dead bodies, two prisoners (sec guards, non
> important, but we're not sure what to do with them), and some
> circumstantial evidence that indicates it was either the head of
> security and/or his immediate inferior (2nd in command) working with an
> outside team.
Query, where did you get these. The bodies could be sec personnel
from the house, raiders or folks you took out. Prisoners who are sec
guards???????

> We also suspect that there was some backing from a
> corporation (HK-UK)
> [General suspicion is that this may have something to do with arms
> contracts]
>
That sounds more than believable, given the nature of the indusrty
even now (there are repeated stories of deals etc etc, how much is
true is of course another matter) fancy business in the arms trade in
SR is likely to be rife.

> Now, all the evidence we have is circumstantial, but pretty convincing,
> that a conspiracy between one of the two afformentioned commanders, a
> couple of staff members, and an outside team, maybe employed by HK-UK
> stole the dog as an example to whomever is determining the arms contract
> allotments, in a sort of "We can get the dog, we can get onto your
> property - we can get to you" sort of thing.
>
seems reasonable.

> The evidence. (briefly)
>
> We think planning for the snatch went on for about six months -
> which coincides with an upgrade in security and the employment of two of
> the suspects and some landscaping in the neighbours' garden (neighbours
> are on holiday somewhere).
>
If the security upgrade coincided with the employment of either the
sec chief or his boss i think you have an ID on the top traitor.

> What I was wondering, is how you lot would deal with the evidence.
>
> Would you take it to HK-UK, accuse them of conspiracy and attempting to
> bias the judgement of a government minister in awarding a lucrative
> contract, and hope the evidence holds up, pushing them for money?
>
This idea is likely to get you laughed at. You have no hard evidence
at all. If they think you might get somewhere all it will do is get
them to eliminate you, probably using another runner team (anonymous).
If they are guilty and you can find some leads blackmail might work
but to pull that off without dying will be near impossible.

> Go to one of the two least suspect security heads, and leave it to them
> to sort out?
>
Try some digging on the background, if the soul has feelings you
might get someplace (take a decker to the personnel departments
personality evaluation records, but a good decker) but make sure you
are set up to get some money out of it and have something good enough
for the soul to take to a level above. You might well need a suitable
'dogs body' to 'return' to cover that you did what you were hired for
to get paid.
If you get the nonguilty party and hes a good bloke you could be on a
real winner here, get the wrong person and you could sign your death
warrants. [possibly easy solution but risky]

> Go to another, independant staff member with seniority and hope to gain
> some payment for services from the owner of the property?
>
Unlikely to listen to you, who the frag are you??????

> Find a dead dog, make it up to look like the old one, claim payment and
> bugger off before anyone figured out what you'd stumbled onto?
>
Assuming all you want is the money good if you can make it
convincing but if you get caught you could trash your reps.

> All of the above?
>
> None of the above?
>
Another question is who in this lot hired you....? the boss over
these sec folks, some 'Mr Johnson'??? as that could have an effect,
as could exactly what you get paid for.
At the moment i would say you need to firm up the lead on HK-UK to at
least the point where you can say 'they did it' to Johnson. At which
point you can probably claim the dog is unrecoverable and get your
money and bargain for more cash for details relating to the case you
have uncovered.
Hitting HK-UK is a dangerous option.
Taking down the 'guilty' member of the sec team for 'questioning '
[mind probe spells are best but mundane means can also be used] has
its possibilities but if you intend to let anyone know you did it you
better be able to back up being sure of the target before you hit em
and don't hurt anyone else during the raid (ie unconcious only, gel
bullets, neurostun / sleep spells). This could be easy proof of who
did it but using information gained this way could be difficult at
best.
Going in officially on the qualtiy of information you have is
probably out, courts become required who need hard evidence, and
expose things and its likely the folks who hired you want this done
without someone finding out there are holes in thier security which
make using the media iffy, though if you have a media producer buddy
for one of the PC's a good story lead might earn you some cash
assuming you warn em whats involved.

Mark

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Question - plot/game-ish
Date:	Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:52:50 +0000

Message no. 4 And verily, did Blaze hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Hiya Guys & Gals :) Long time no speaky.
|
|(Hello Spike - got over your tree leaf addiction yet?) <grin>

AAAARGH!!!

Again it comes to plague me!!!

<wimper>

help?

</wimper>

:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Question - plot/game-ish
Date:	Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:37:15 +0000

Message no. 5 In article <21057.199710311352@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>, Spike
<u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> waffled & burbled about Question -
plot/game-ish
>And verily, did Blaze hastily scribble thusly...

Hastily scribble??? I didn't. It took me at least a couple of minutes
to write all that. :)

>|(Hello Spike - got over your tree leaf addiction yet?) <grin>
>
>AAAARGH!!!
>
>Again it comes to plague me!!!

Now you didn't really, in your wildest imaginings think I'd ever leave
you alone after that, now did you. :)

That really is too much to expect.

><wimper>
>help?
></wimper>

Whimp.... <g>

--
Blaze
(Stealing net accounts, to post - just 'cause I can.)
Inside every old man, there's a child trying to get out

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Question - plot/game-ish
Date:	Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:35:42 +0000

Message no. 6 In article <1B1D83A77F0@******.eee.rgu.ac.uk>, Mark Steedman
<M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK> waffled & burbled about Question -
plot/game-ish
>Blaze writes
>>
>Ok i assume you have been hired by the folks at the house and get
>paid for bringing a dog back. I will assume that you might get a

We were hired by the lady of the house, she lives there alone, with a
large staff, security, and her father (or lover) is a total mystery.

>bonus for telling them who took it, how and why but only a bonus.

No bonus was mentioned for catching or identifying the culprits, just
finding and returning the dog. We're pretty certain, with some of the
stuff we've turned up indicates that the dog was an example, and has
probably been destroyed.

>> So far we have two dead bodies, two prisoners (sec guards, non
>> important, but we're not sure what to do with them), and some
>> circumstantial evidence that indicates it was either the head of
>> security and/or his immediate inferior (2nd in command) working with an
>> outside team.
>Query, where did you get these.

The two dead bodies were uncovered during ivestigation. We reported one
to the police and cleared out of the area. The two prisoners are
members of the security team at the house, we, erm, kidnapped them.
Didn't we Paul...

The logic being is that we felt these two were rather suspect, so
"borrowed" them.

>> [General suspicion is that this may have something to do with arms
>> contracts]
>>
>That sounds more than believable, given the nature of the indusrty
>even now (there are repeated stories of deals etc etc, how much is
>true is of course another matter) fancy business in the arms trade in
>SR is likely to be rife.

That's why we were reasonably happy to swallow the theory. There's
sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion but not to prove it.
Unfortunately none of the team has the experience or skills to really
dig into this.

>> We think planning for the snatch went on for about six months -
>> which coincides with an upgrade in security and the employment of two of
>> the suspects and some landscaping in the neighbours' garden (neighbours
>> are on holiday somewhere).
>>
>If the security upgrade coincided with the employment of either the
>sec chief or his boss i think you have an ID on the top traitor.

The upgrade coincided with the employment of several staff members,
including the two we kidnapped, and the second in command (sec chief).
That's why he's high on our list of suspects, also his connection one
dead person and one prisoner, and previous "convenient" presence in an
area where HK-UK won contracts shortly after a military operation he was
involved in (previous employment was in the army).

>> Would you take it to HK-UK, accuse them of conspiracy and attempting to
>> bias the judgement of a government minister in awarding a lucrative
>> contract, and hope the evidence holds up, pushing them for money?
>>
>This idea is likely to get you laughed at.

That was the least of our worries, the worst case scenario we could come
up with, not having any solid evidence was to get ourselves shot up by
somebody. Laughed at we could probably deal with :)

>You have no hard evidence
>at all. If they think you might get somewhere all it will do is get
>them to eliminate you, probably using another runner team (anonymous).

That was the worst case, and not something we feel we could deal with.
So far we've been rather lucky. Only two members of the team can use
firearms and only one of them is any good at it. :)

>If they are guilty and you can find some leads blackmail might work
>but to pull that off without dying will be near impossible.

And at our present level of skill, would also be an incredible miracle.

>> Go to one of the two least suspect security heads, and leave it to them
>> to sort out?
>>
>Try some digging on the background, if the soul has feelings you
>might get someplace

We've done some checking (as much as we can without making noise) and
the senior guy seems to be clean, however, this has aroused suspicions
from two players, in as much as they think he's too clean, and that
makes irrationally nervous.

>(take a decker to the personnel departments
>personality evaluation records, but a good decker)

We have access to a reasonable NPC decker, but don't have one in the
team. However, the NPC is trustworthy, if expensive. Whether he's good
enough for this type of job, we don't know.

>but make sure you
>are set up to get some money out of it and have something good enough
>for the soul to take to a level above.

That's the biggie. We want to make something out of this, otherwise we
end up making a considerable loss.

>You might well need a suitable
>'dogs body' to 'return' to cover that you did what you were hired for
>to get paid.

The dog's body is unavailable, we do know the type of dog, and have
current photographs to work from, and we know the salon where it had
it's "fur job", but that's likely to be an expensive process...

>If you get the nonguilty party and hes a good bloke you could be on a
>real winner here, get the wrong person and you could sign your death
>warrants. [possibly easy solution but risky]

Yes, that's what bothers us. We think we know who to go to, but he's
too clean for the comfort of some players. Signing our own death
certificattes is not a particularly attractive prospect.

>> Go to another, independant staff member with seniority and hope to gain
>> some payment for services from the owner of the property?
>>
>Unlikely to listen to you, who the frag are you??????

They know who we are. The household is run by a Butler. Although we're
not exactly friendly with the guy, and he's a bit of a cold fish, we
have met him a couple of times, and he knows we were employed by the
lady of the house to find her pet... A pet, incidentally that the
butler hates. ("yappy little shit machine" - he called it).

>> Find a dead dog, make it up to look like the old one, claim payment and
>> bugger off before anyone figured out what you'd stumbled onto?
>>
>Assuming all you want is the money good if you can make it
>convincing but if you get caught you could trash your reps.

We don't exactly have much of a rep at the present. (New characters, and
ex-students at that) So trashing rep isn't really a problem, but I can
see two characters who might have a problem with that sort of result.
Our gungho, military brat psycho gun nut, and the "dodgy suit" person.
:)

>> All of the above?
>>
>> None of the above?
>>
>Another question is who in this lot hired you....? the boss over
>these sec folks, some 'Mr Johnson'??? as that could have an effect,
>as could exactly what you get paid for.

The lady of the house. A complete bimbo airhead, who's only concern is
that her personal diary is contained in a chip inside the dog's head.
We have established that her inane wafflings are not likely to be of any
interest to anyone, so that's not why the dog was taken. We think it
was a warning, or statement to her father - who remains anonymous.

>At the moment i would say you need to firm up the lead on HK-UK to at
>least the point where you can say 'they did it' to Johnson.

That's something we'd like to do, but aren't really confident of our
ability to do it without getting involved in some serious trouble we
can't deal with.

>At which
>point you can probably claim the dog is unrecoverable and get your
>money and bargain for more cash for details relating to the case you
>have uncovered.

The dog is definately unrecoverable. We figure that the animal has been
dumped into the Thames, and there's no way any of us are going swimming
in that to try and find it. However, we could substitute another.

>Hitting HK-UK is a dangerous option.

That's what we thought. :)

>Taking down the 'guilty' member of the sec team for 'questioning '
>[mind probe spells are best but mundane means can also be used]

I don't think mind probe is available to our mage, well, at least, he's
never mentioned it, but it might be. Mundane methods are possible, we
have a few tricks in that department.

>has
>its possibilities but if you intend to let anyone know you did it you
>better be able to back up being sure of the target before you hit em

To be honest, taking the suspect member is not something we'd
considered. I'll talk it over with everyone else and see what they
think.

>and don't hurt anyone else during the raid (ie unconcious only, gel
>bullets, neurostun / sleep spells).

That's not a problem, we only have one gun, and that's owned by the mil-
brat. The "dodgy suit" has a gun, but we don't think she's any good
with it. About the only other weapons we have are tasers, oh yeah, and
a torch... <g>

>This could be easy proof of who
>did it but using information gained this way could be difficult at
>best.

Difficult, but not impossible, and certainly easier than running against
HK.

>Going in officially on the qualtiy of information you have is
>probably out, courts become required who need hard evidence, and
>expose things and its likely the folks who hired you want this done
>without someone finding out there are holes in thier security which
>make using the media iffy, though if you have a media producer buddy
>for one of the PC's a good story lead might earn you some cash
>assuming you warn em whats involved.

One of the PCs is an aspiring reporter, currently freelancing for a
local gutter rag, so we have a little access to the media. We did
consider this, but weren't sure what the reaction would be. As I said,
most of our evidence is pretty circumstantial, and we don't really have
anything solid, but if we could take the sec chief, and get an answer
out of him... Mind you he's an ex-member of the military, with
experience in covert operations, so that might actually be more
difficult.

Thanks for the suggestions Mark, it's given me something to talk to
everyone else about. :)

--
Blaze
(Stealing Pete's net account, to post - just 'cause I can.)
Inside every old man, there's a child trying to get out

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Question - plot/game-ish
Date:	Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:07:59 +0000

Message no. 7 In article <19971030.225848.16846.1.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Question - plot/game-ish
>On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:51:57 +0000 Blaze <Blaze@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
>writes:
>
><<Hiya Guys & Gals :) Long time no speaky.>>
>
>Hello, again.

:)

><<What I was wondering, is how you lot would deal with the evidence.>>
>
>Ah...there's always a request:)

Of course. It wouldn't be right to just post a load of stuff and not
ask something <g>

>contract, and hope the evidence holds up, pushing them for money?>>
>
>I don't think I'd go this route. To easy to walk into a trap of some
>variety, IMHO.

We were somewhat nervous about this part, especially while we were
discussing it this strantge dreamy look entered the GM's eyes. :) And
when the heavy weapons book came out, we definately got nervous.

><<Go to one of the two least suspect security heads, and leave it to them
>to sort out?>>
>
>This might be a good route, especially if you can find a way to leave
>them the info anonymously (though, if the sec person(s) turn out to be on
>the take after all, it could create more problems than it solved).

Unfortunately anonymity isn't really an option. We're still not 100%
sure which one is the least likely to be part of the "conspiracy", and
weren't sure whether it would be advisable. General agreement is that
it's the 2nd in command who's arranged the "example" but it's also
vaguely possible that the head honcho is also in on the whole thing.
Also, we aren't sure whether we'd get paid, or just make a not
particularly useful friend.

><<Go to another, independant staff member with seniority and hope to gain
>some payment for services from the owner of the property?>>
>
>Not a bad idea, but probably one that could draw fire rather fast.

That was something we considered. The only real option for other member
of staff would be the butler who is essentially the head of staff, but
he's a bit of a cold fish, and we can't figure the guy out. His history
is a teeny bit - shall we say - "vague".

><<Find a dead dog, make it up to look like the old one, claim payment and
>bugger off before anyone figured out what you'd stumbled onto?>>
>
>This is probably the safest course of action, if you can manage it.

Oh we can manage it. We know the type of dog (toy poodle) and the salon
where it had it's "fur job".

>If
>you're feeling conscientious, pull this stunt and leave the evidence
>behind to someone like the police or a media group or something (someone
>you can be sure will investigate this) anonymously, so that you can't be
>tied to it.

Leave the evidence where it can be found.... Hmmm, that's not something
we'd actually considered. Interesting. It has the dual result that we
get paid for the dog, and prevent ourselves from walking into a free
fire zone. I like this. :)

><<Ideas?>>
>
>None at the moment, sorry.

More than you might have thought. :)

><<Ta in advance for your invaluable help.... The last time I asked a
>question here, your answers were extremely helpful, and it looks like the
>old characters can retire - very rich :) <EPG>*>>
>
>Good to hear it, I'd hate to think that you had leave all the gold there,
>after all of the discussion on the list:)

In the end we decided that the safest way to transport the gold was to
pose as business persons, and encase a Rolls Royce with it, licensing
the thing for armour. The GM was having so much fun with the discussion
that he let us get away with it. However, the exchange rate for
disposing of the gold hurts a bit, the old characters are likely to hold
onto it for a while, and look for a good deal.

><<EPG = Evil Player Grin (see we can do it to) :)>>
>
>But you don't do it as well:)

Not as much practice. :) But we're getting better.

--
Blaze
(Stealing net accounts, to post - just 'cause I can.)
Inside every old man, there's a child trying to get out

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