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Message no. 1
From: "Flash, Shaman & Fixer" <STEFFENR@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 09:14:00 CST
>On Tue, 27 Oct 1992, steven mancini wrote:
>
>>
>
>These are all how *I* would inturrpret the rules, not the book.
>
>>
>> --------------------------- QUESTIONS ------------------------------
>>
>> 2. Can 2 people with datajacks "link" to create a techno-telepathy?
>> How about a device using 2 datajacks to duplicate a Mind Probe?
>
>I can't see why it wouldn't work, providing that the person was able to
>access their datajack consciously. As for a person plugging into another
>to read their mind, I'd make it a resisted success test of the reader's
>willpower vs the willpower of the readee.

Read "Never Trust an Elf". Two Street Sams have a private conference
via DataJack.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Russ Steffen | "Madness in great ones |
| UW-Stout | must not unwatched go!" |
| Email : STEFFENR@*******.EDU | -- Shakespeare, "Hamlet" |
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Message no. 2
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 17:07:01 GMT
Disclaimer:

All answers here are my own opinions based on my understanding of the rules
and life in general. I've only commented on stuff I remeber as I don't have
any rule books handy.

>2. Can 2 people with datajacks "link" to create a techno-telepathy?
> How about a device using 2 datajacks to duplicate a Mind Probe?

It should be possible to transfer information between two datajacks and any
associated headware easily enough by a cable and some transmission software
running in both people's headware. This could even be read allowing
conversations if both users have a retinal display.

Mind probes I would think this would be extremly hard. It should be possible
if the correct software were running in the headware to get an impression of
what the person is thinking using the sensory links that the datajack provides.
As for reading that person's mind this would require all their thoughts and
memories to be in a technically accessable state. The amount of cyberware that
would have to go into a person's head to interface with these memories would
surely leave them on the very edges on insanity. To carry out mind probes the
best way is to simply use magic which does not require any technological add-
ons.

>3. Cyber-eyes can hold .5 capacity of cyberware without additional
> essence loss. If you pack 'em with Betaware do you think you could
> get more for you .5 capacity or the .5 capacity is more of a size
> restriction?

Betware by definition is smaller and does less essence damage. My own opinion
is that the size of the device should be related to the essence loss (this
doesn't hold true for things like cyber-limbs). So yes I think you should be
able to pack more into that .5.

>6. How do you folks deal with Drones and Recoil? I mean somehow I imagine
> it difficult for a rotodrone to remain stationary after a burst fire.

I would think the best way is to treat it the same as recoil on vehicles.
Add recoil to the handling and get the autopilot or rigger to make a
control test. You could say the number of successes determines how well the
drone hold's it's position.


-The Powerhouse
Message no. 3
From: Androoooooooo <mmd@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Questions....
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 92 12:31:06 -0500
Ok, Guys... don't laugh at me... I didn't think this up:

A player of mine wants to play a Pirahna (spelling?) shaman.
He thinks that the Pirahna would be just like Shark, but I
told him no way... He still wants to do it, but I think that
Pirahna would be a psychotic always berserk character......

I'm just wondering what you all think about it, and what would
the advantages/disadvantages be? I'm not going to agree to it
at the moment, but I want responses that maybe I could print out
and give to him.

> NOTE: This is not Rob, if any of you remember Rob... Rob
is the one who wanted a berserking Squirrel shaman.
(I said no to that one also, along with everyone else! <



Other question: Do any of you play shamanic Physical Adepts?
In our groups, we do, and it makes for a bit of variety in
the Fizz Ads...

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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Andrew C. Danforth <===> mmd@***.umd.edu
-----------------------------------------
>>>>>[So I'm strange... Your point?]<<<<<
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Message no. 4
From: Christina Johnson <johnson1@**.UWP.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions....
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 92 20:56:36 CET
On Sun, 6 Dec 1992, Androoooooooo wrote:

>
> Ok, Guys... don't laugh at me... I didn't think this up:
>
> A player of mine wants to play a Pirahna (spelling?) shaman.
> He thinks that the Pirahna would be just like Shark, but I
> told him no way... He still wants to do it, but I think that
> Pirahna would be a psychotic always berserk character......
>

Well, one thing to remember, is that Pirahna's are pack animals. Wrong
terminoligy for fish, I realize, but you understand. While they are
pretty viscious all alone, they prefer to work with others of their kind.
AND WILL NOT WORK WITH ANYTHING ELSE. This is why a cow can be eaten to
its skeleton in three minutes or less. A Pirahna shaman might be neat,
but would certainly not work within the constructs of a group (Unless they
were all Pirahna shamen *shudder*). Might make a better bad guy than a
PC.

And shaman Physical Adepts? I've toyed with the idea, never implemented
it, but it sounds doable to me.

-Brandywine-
Message no. 5
From: The Reverend <IH46@****.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Questions....
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 92 14:59:36 MST
> > A player of mine wants to play a Pirahna (spelling?) shaman.
> > He thinks that the Pirahna would be just like Shark, but I
> > told him no way... He still wants to do it, but I think that
> > Pirahna would be a psychotic always berserk character......
> >
>
Yup.. Some more thoughts. They, LIKE CAT, would have problems
running with groups. They like their own (like Brandywine said about
pack animals)
We almost killed our cat shaman (talk about divisive...:(

Another thought...since Pirahnas can skeletonize a cow in 3 minutes,
does that mean he gets a +1dice when eating BBQ or Hamburgers? :)

--- "If character isn't an issue, why isn't
The Reverend Ted Kennedy President?"-Rush Limbaugh
"My employers have changed but the name remains"
all new .sig virus v.314159: Copy me! Works 99 times out of 1,000!
Message no. 6
From: R Andrew Hayden <rahayden@*****.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions....
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 92 23:14:16 CET
On Sun, 6 Dec 1992, The Reverend wrote:

>
> Another thought...since Pirahnas can skeletonize a cow in 3 minutes,
> does that mean he gets a +1dice when eating BBQ or Hamburgers? :)
>

THWAP!
Message no. 7
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: Questions
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 93 06:50:54 CET
The Minotaur asks, and I must reply:
>> I had a wild idea. Take your normal Heavy Pistol, a Colt
>> Manhunter. Add a reactive trigger; now I can fire 2 bullets
>> per action. Now suppose the clever samurai wielding this
>> weapon alternates the ammo type so that when employing
>> the reactive trigger, the first bullet emerging from the
>> chamber is an APDS round, and the second round is an
>> Explosive round, what is the overall cumulative damage?
Humm, sounds like (in SRI terms) 5M2 followed by 4M4.
>> Can a mage summon an elemental from that 'other place' where
>> they stay while bound if he/she is within a Ward? A lodge?
>> An astral (mana) barrier?
Never thought about that. I would say no, since the astral barrier, whether
Ward, Lodge or Mana Barrier, would block the mage from any access to the
Metaplanes. This assumes that when a mage summons an elemental that he
basically sends a summons to the proper metaplane for a spirit that comes and
serves him. How does that sound?

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
Message no. 8
From: Oliver Mathes <drizzt@**.TU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Questions
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1993 00:46:01 +0200
>>>>>[Hoi Chummers
I am going to host my first SHADOWRUN in a couple of days.
The problem is that as I prepare myself I encounter more
and more questions that I can't find the answers for! (sigh)

1. How do I handle the skill web?
The skill web shows only the general skills and attributes.
Lets say a character is using a Ares Viper but has only the
general skill firearms(6) what is the target number
(is it 4 because the Ares Viper would be a special weapon)?
2. What does a Basic DocWagon Contract offer?
3. What happened to Program carrier (i hope that is the correct
translation) in SRII?
Is it correct that i only need one success with the spell
Increase Reflexes +3 (is the only difference the drain)?
4. Can a Rigger drive a car and use the vehicle weapons
(hard points) at the same time ?
5. How about using an LPMUD game to create the Matrix?]<<<<<
-- The so far NAMELESS Decker (01:00:59/06-26-54)
Message no. 9
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 20:53:07 EDT
>>>>> "Oliver" == Oliver Mathes <drizzt@**.tu-berlin.de>
writes:

Oliver> 1. How do I handle the skill web? The skill web shows only the
Oliver> general skills and attributes. Lets say a character is using a
Oliver> Ares Viper but has only the general skill firearms(6) what is the
Oliver> target number (is it 4 because the Ares Viper would be a special
Oliver> weapon)?

No. General Skills apply to everything in their category. If you have
Firearms 6, then you roll 6 dice with *any* firearm. This is *not* using
the Skill Web. If, however, you have a character who has Armed Combat
specialized Sword at 5/7, he gets 7 dice with a sword and 5 dice for all
other armed combat (knives, clubs, cyber-implants, etc). If he were to use
his Armed Combat skill in place of Unarmed Combat skill via the Skill Web,
he'd use the General skill and have 5 dice, and the higher target numbers.

Oliver> 2. What does a Basic DocWagon Contract offer?

They'll take you to the hospital, and take reasonable steps to insure that
you survive. Don't expect them to risk their lives much, though.

Oliver> 3. What happened to Program carrier (i hope that is the correct
Oliver> translation) in SRII?

Gone, totally gone. You need a cyberdeck to run the Matrix.

Oliver> Is it correct that i only need one success with the spell Increase
Oliver> Reflexes +3 (is the only difference the drain)?

I'm not sure; don't have any books handy and I'm not up on the spells. I
think this is correct, though.

Oliver> 4. Can a Rigger drive a car and use the vehicle weapons (hard
Oliver> points) at the same time?

Yes, to a point. Controlling the vehicle costs 1 action. Any other actions
that combat turn the Rigger can use to attack.

Oliver> 5. How about using an LPMUD game to create the Matrix?]<<<<<

Bleargh! :-)

--Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
PGP Public Key Block available upon request Ask about rat-pgp.el
||||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||||
Take in the now/Your taste belongs in my eyes and in my mind/Now I see
--Braindance, Now
Message no. 10
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: questions
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 13:23:05 -0700
Ok heres some questions


1 where in shadowbeat does it show stats for Sasquatches?

2 in Shadowtech under bonelacing. There is a damage code fot each of the bone
lacings in Tech. Plastic is str+1m2 Aluminum str+2m2 Titanium str+3m2

all of these are SRI stats - do we change them to
Str+3M plasitc
Str+4M alum
Str+5M tit

for SRII if so - yikes!!!!!!!!


3. Manipulation spells and Spell defense/ shielding.

Ok manipulation spells don't attack the person. Instead they create the
element in front of the mage, and it streaks towards the target.

SO since the magic has already happened (I think) how much does spell
defense/ Shielding help against it?

Me I say that shielding does not raise the 4 TN of the spell
But spell defense and the defense part of shielding still help towards
resisting the spell.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne - Fencing house
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" A lack of knowledge is a dangerous thing. I am the most dangerous man in the
universe." - Daniel Waisley "Nightfox"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: "Bryan D. Jones" <bdj@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Questions
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 17:41:15 -0500
Okay time for a few questions and then we can return to our
regularly schedueled bi-monthly gun discussion. :)

1) Anyone got an order address/phone/fax for KAGE?
2) Has someone finished updating the timeline through FoF?
I ask because I don't have FoF yet, and my gaming store was
just bought out by Walmart and they are not restocking because the
new management feels that role-playing is "unhealthy". So
now it looks like mail-order or drive to Tulsa to get gameing supplies.


--
Bryan D. Jones Computing Services
Internet: bdj@****.uark.edu University of Arkansas
Internet: bdj@****.uark.edu Bitnet bdj@*******
GAT d--(?) -p+ c++(++++) l+(-) u++ e*/+ m---(*) s/- n---(+) h* f+
g- w++ t++ r++ y+
PGP Public Key Available Upon Request
Message no. 12
From: andrew <t_strube@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 14:08:23 +1000
G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
would appreciate being answered.

1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
played for longer then we have.

2) Also, is there any other way besides a power focus to raise your magic
rating?

Thanks!

Tobias Strube
University of Tasmania.
Message no. 13
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 00:54:57 -0700
On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, andrew wrote:

> G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
> mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
> would appreciate being answered.

Welcome to our esteemed list.

>
> 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
> believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
> points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
> sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
> played for longer then we have.
>

I've never really had any problems with it. You can make an
Adept Killing Hands and a +d6 to Initiative as well as extra dice to
Unarmed Combat and he's ready to kick some ass. Granted, that's if you
want to play a combat machine. Perhaps your players are too worried
about power and killing. Physical Adepts are cool because they have
powers that effect *themselves.* It provides a unique role-playing
experience.

> 2) Also, is there any other way besides a power focus to raise your magic
> rating?
>

Initiation. It's in the Grimoire in case you don't have it.



Kyle Kohler

"Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into a jet engine."
Message no. 14
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 17:56:48 +1000
Tobias writes:

> G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
> mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
> would appreciate being answered.

G'day tobias. Another Australian eh? As far as I know, this makes 3 of us on
the list.

> 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
> believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
> points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
> sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
> played for longer then we have.

Well, of the 2 or so Phys adepts i have seen in games, the 6 points of magic
to "spend" seemed OK. But then again, I lower the power level of all
starting characters (like less skills, stats and money), so in my games (at
the onset at least) physical adepts are pretty OK. One phys adept came into
a game later on, when i'd adjusted the character creation table to be up to
date with current players (the table was almost the nsame as the one in the
book, only a couple of stat points less), and he was a bit lacking (but i
think any character being created from the table and coming into an already
running games is a bit lacking - like no Shadowtech gear, no initiation
etc), so I feel it is alright. That phys adept killed more enemies in melee
combat than the cybered/bioed street sammy did in melee and ranged, so the
phys adept cant have been too bad.

> 2) Also, is there any other way besides a power focus to raise your magic
> rating?

Only initiation, from the Grimoire. I take it by that question that you dont
have that sourcebook, I'd reccomend it highly as a main sourcebook for SR.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 15
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Questions (fwd)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 10:01:23 METDST
>
> G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
> mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
> would appreciate being answered.
>
> 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
> believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
> points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
> sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
> played for longer then we have.

Unfortunately, I was not able to change the old GM's mind about this.
I had a physad with a smartlink (so magic was at 5) and only 5 points
of powers to get. Too bad, but...

>
> 2) Also, is there any other way besides a power focus to raise your magic
> rating?

If you talk about physad, the only focus that they can use is a weapon focus.
Talking about other mages, well... I don't remember.. =)

>
> Thanks!
>
> Tobias Strube
> University of Tasmania.

Bye, Paolo

--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
Message no. 16
From: toby <t_strube@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 18:18:46 +1000
(* stuff deleted *)
> Welcome to our esteemed list.

Thanks!



> I've never really had any problems with it. You can make an
>Adept Killing Hands and a +d6 to Initiative as well as extra dice to
>Unarmed Combat and he's ready to kick some ass. Granted, that's if you
>want to play a combat machine. Perhaps your players are too worried
>about power and killing. Physical Adepts are cool because they have
>powers that effect *themselves.* It provides a unique role-playing
>experience.

OK then, can a Physical Adept "buy" more 'Effects' or 'Abilities' with Good
Karma? And also, they can't use cyberware without losing some 'Abilities'
either, right?

> Initiation. It's in the Grimoire in case you don't have it.

Cool. I heard from a friend about a second edition Grimoire or another
version or something like that. Is that true?

Thanks for your answers!!!


Tobias Strube
University of Tasmania.

"Run dude!!"
"No way! I'm a Derrick, and Derricks don't run."
Message no. 17
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 18:35:19 +1000
>(* stuff deleted *)
>> Welcome to our esteemed list.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>> I've never really had any problems with it. You can make an
>>Adept Killing Hands and a +d6 to Initiative as well as extra dice to
>>Unarmed Combat and he's ready to kick some ass. Granted, that's if you
>>want to play a combat machine. Perhaps your players are too worried
>>about power and killing. Physical Adepts are cool because they have
>>powers that effect *themselves.* It provides a unique role-playing
>>experience.
>
>OK then, can a Physical Adept "buy" more 'Effects' or 'Abilities' with Good
>Karma? And also, they can't use cyberware without losing some 'Abilities'
>either, right?
>
>> Initiation. It's in the Grimoire in case you don't have it.
>
>Cool. I heard from a friend about a second edition Grimoire or another
>version or something like that. Is that true?
>

Yep, the 2nd ed Grimoire is out and available, I haven't seen the first ed
version for ages. BTH this means there are maybe 4 of us Aussies.

>Thanks for your answers!!!
>

No worries, but why didn't you just ask me??

>
>Tobias Strube
>University of Tasmania.
>
>"Run dude!!"
>"No way! I'm a Derrick, and Derricks don't run."


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 18
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 01:40:15 -0700
> (* stuff deleted *)
> > Welcome to our esteemed list.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> > I've never really had any problems with it. You can make an
> >Adept Killing Hands and a +d6 to Initiative as well as extra dice to
> >Unarmed Combat and he's ready to kick some ass. Granted, that's if you
> >want to play a combat machine. Perhaps your players are too worried
> >about power and killing. Physical Adepts are cool because they have
> >powers that effect *themselves.* It provides a unique role-playing
> >experience.
>
> OK then, can a Physical Adept "buy" more 'Effects' or 'Abilities' with Good
> Karma? And also, they can't use cyberware without losing some 'Abilities'
> either, right?
>

The only way to get more abilities is by increasing your magic
rating. To do that, you must initiate the adept. When the magic rating
goes up, you get more "points" to buy abilities. Cyberware does lower
magic rating, thus lowering the number of points available to buy points.



> > Initiation. It's in the Grimoire in case you don't have it.
>
> Cool. I heard from a friend about a second edition Grimoire or another
> version or something like that. Is that true?
>

Grimoire II is out, and there is a number 3 coming out, but god
knows when (actually, even he/she/it probably doesn't know =) )


Kyle Kohler

I think it's sleepy time.
Message no. 19
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 14:36:31 +0100
> G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
> mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
> would appreciate being answered.

Hi Chummer, nice to have you here.

> 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
> believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
> points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
> sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
> played for longer then we have.

The six magic points are more than enough for Physical Adepts (PAs),
sure they may be a bit wimpy after character generation when compared to a
fully cybered grunt, BUT they have a lot going for them:

o PAs can get easilly healed (magically) because still have their
essense.
o PAs can initiate and get more magic points as well as acces to lotsa
wonderfull new abilities. Whereas cyberdudes never get more essense.
o PAs can even get SHIELDING when initiated (Shielding KICKS ASS).
o PAs way to boost their reflexes uses magic , that means that the
use of magic (through locks or quickenings) to further boost them
is compatible with it. Giving them an initiative equall to that
of the most cybered up character(including cyber and bio - trust me
I have done it and they are both equally quick)

> 2) Also, is there any other way besides a power focus to raise your magic
> rating?

Yep through initiation, look up the Grimoire for more on that.
BTW PAs can not use power foci.

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS d>d- h s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UAVSL++>UAVSL+++ p--(aren't we all?)
L+>L+++ 3 N++ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ !5 !j- r+++(--) !G
v(++) b+++ D++ b- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 20
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 07:51:03 -0600
In response to your questions Tobias:


1)I think that the reasons your players are griping is that the First Ed.
rules for PhysAd's were more reasonable, IMHO. The SRII rules for PhysAd's
seperate the powers a little too much for my tastes. The 6 Magic Point rule
is necessary in either system to keep PC's from getting Kwai-Chang Caine on
their first try. The game is about role-playing, and that is what there
(oops) the rules are there for. Dont let them use any more than the 6 given-
PERIOD! [game balance will suffer mightily] but if you feel that the 6 points
are not giving the PC enough 'bang for the buck' then use the PhysAd rules from
the 1st ed. Grimoire. And about Auto Successes-They shouldn't apply for ranged
weapons of any sort. No thrown weapons, bows, firearms [especially a no-no].

2)Another way to raise your magic rating is thru INITIATION. Other than a
PhysAd Initiating, I can't think of another. There are no skills, spells or
rituals I am aware of that will raise Magic Attribute-and you can't use Karma
to increase it directly either.

Hope this Helps--
Bryan
Message no. 21
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 23:40:19 +1000
Oops I deleted whoevers .sig, and I cant remember who wrotes this. Sorry.

> o PAs can even get SHIELDING when initiated (Shielding KICKS ASS).

Are you sure Physical Adepts can get SHIELDING, isnt it the initiated form
of spell defence, available only to those with magic pools (like full blown
hermetics and shamans, and sorcery adepts, oh, and elemental adepts too)?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 22
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 16:48:33 +0100
> > o PAs can even get SHIELDING when initiated (Shielding KICKS ASS).
>
> Are you sure Physical Adepts can get SHIELDING, isnt it the initiated form
> of spell defence, available only to those with magic pools (like full blown
> hermetics and shamans, and sorcery adepts, oh, and elemental adepts too)?

Well the Grimoire sez that an initiate gets to use his magic pool
dice as shielding dice (PAs dot have and cant get a magic pool so they cant
use this) AND gets extra dice equall to his initiation rating. A PA can
use these extra dice as shielding dice. That is no problem however, cause
even with a couple of dice shielding can mess up a spellcasters day bigtime.

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS d>d- h s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UAVSL++>UAVSL+++ p--(aren't we all?)
L+>L+++ 3 N++ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ !5 !j- r+++(--) !G
v(++) b+++ D++ b- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 23
From: Brett Ryan Brown <calvinoi@*******.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 10:26:10 18000
>
> G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
> mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
> would appreciate being answered.

Hoi, chummer! Welcome to the ride of a lifetime!

> 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
> believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
> points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
> sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
> played for longer then we have.

Well,as a few people have mentioned, Initiation can
raise your magic attribute. As Physical Adepts cannot use power foci,
initiation is essentially the only way they can raise their magic
attribute. Tell your phys. adept players that if they save up their
Karma from the beginning, then Initiation will come sooner. Initation
is basically the advancement of magicians to higher levels of power,
and this costs major Karma (18 good karma just to get to Initiate lvl 0.)
Once they get to level 1, their magic attr. goes up one (7), then at
level 2, if goes up one more (8) and so on....
As you can probably guess, if your characters realy
dedicate themselves to Initiation, they can eventually work up their
magic to levels that can allow them to totally waste their wired
cousins, the street sammies.

> 2) Also, is there any other way besides a power focus to raise your magic
> rating?
> Thanks!

Like has been mentioned, Initiation rules are in the Grimoire.
I would STRONGLY recommend purchasing these books:
The Grimoire (The Manual of Practical Thaumaturgy 15th Edition, 2053)
ShadowTech (If you have any need for extra cyberware or decker
cyberware)
Harlequin (It's a wonderful campaign...)

Also, I have compiled a guide to Physical Adepts which quite a few
people use (or so I'd like to think ;) called "The Rather Un-Official
Physical Adepts Handybook." It is basically a nice compilation of old
and new physical adept powers, with a ditty about meditation and its
role in the realm of the phys. adept. If you want it (I recommend it,
it's free!) then just send e-mail directly to me at the address listed
below, in my .sig. Good luck, chummer!

-L8TR,
-Calvinoi MindFlyer

--
_/_/_/_/ _ calvinoi@freenet.scri.fsu.edu/calvinoi@*******.tlh.fl.us
_/ | | _ _ NOTE: All of the above
_/ __ _ | | __ __ (_) _ _ ___ (_) text put there by me
_/ / _` | | | \ V / | | | ' \ / _ \ | | is SOLELY my _own_
_/_/_/_/ \__,_| |_| \_/ |_| |_||_\ \___/ |_| worthless blather.
=============================================== ----------------------
(Geek Code 2.0) d+ h- s !g !au a-- w++ v+(-) c++(++++) US>US++ P? !L 3
N++ K++ !W M++ !V -po+(---) Y+>++ t++ 5+ j r+(++) G+>++
v+ b++ D+ b--- e u**(---) h! f !r>r n-@ y?
Message no. 24
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 15:44:14 +0100
In reply to andrew .....

> G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
> mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
> would appreciate being answered.

Briefly :

Phys ads can gain magic points by initiation and initiation alone. They cannot
use power foci to gain magic points.

Stick with the 6 points, it might not seem much, espcially when compared with
a beginning sam but the potential of initiation and the ability to be able to
max out in physical skills such as stealth and Unarmed Combat sure as hell make
up for it.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Fighting against
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | Political Correctness !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse
Message no. 25
From: Chris Ryan <chrisr@****.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 14:14:32 --1000
> > G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
> > mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
> > would appreciate being answered.
>
> G'day tobias. Another Australian eh? As far as I know, this makes 3 of us on
> the list.

I think you'll find there's a few of us on the list. I lurk a lot.

> > 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
> > believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
> > points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
> > sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
> > played for longer then we have.

From experience I think it's enough, after all they can initiate to get more
magic points. Of course, if your physad players are like ours, they'll bitch
and whinge about it all. :-)

Chris

Chris Ryan | Earthdawn List: earthdawn@********.iquest.com
QDPI/QUT | To subscribe send a message (no subj reqd) to
Brisbane Qld Australia | majordomo@********.iquest.com with:
chrisr@****.qut.edu.au | subscribe earthdawn
Message no. 26
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 15:01:46 +1000
Chris Ryan:

>> > 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
>> > believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating
in
>> > points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
>> > sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
>> > played for longer then we have.
>

> From experience I think it's enough, after all they can initiate to get more
> magic points. Of course, if your physad players are like ours, they'll bitch
> and whinge about it all. :-)


I thought it was worse when I read the SR II rules, for a combat Physad.
But when I actually went through the exercise, I found you could achieve
pretty well the same results.

Either way, it feels like you're being squeezed; but after long play, I
believe FASA was spot on. More than Magic attribute would be making them
munchkinous.

(We never allowed Auto successes to transfer via the skill web; this
obviates the need for the heavier handed SR II fix.)

luke
Message no. 27
From: Toby <t_strube@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 17:15:49 +1000
>No worries, but why didn't you just ask me??

I didn't know you played Shadowrun Hamish.

Tobias Strube
University of Tasmania.

"Run Dude!!"
"No way! I'm a Derrick, and Derricks don't run."
- A player plagarising a New Zealand movie during a playing session.
Message no. 28
From: Toby <t_strube@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 17:26:46 +1000
>> G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
>> mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
>> would appreciate being answered.
>
> Hi Chummer, nice to have you here.
>
>> 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
>> believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
>> points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
>> sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
>> played for longer then we have.
>
> The six magic points are more than enough for Physical Adepts (PAs),
> sure they may be a bit wimpy after character generation when compared to a
> fully cybered grunt, BUT they have a lot going for them:
>
> o PAs can get easilly healed (magically) because still have their
> essense.
> o PAs can initiate and get more magic points as well as acces to lotsa
> wonderfull new abilities. Whereas cyberdudes never get more essense.
> o PAs can even get SHIELDING when initiated (Shielding KICKS ASS).
> o PAs way to boost their reflexes uses magic , that means that the
> use of magic (through locks or quickenings) to further boost them
> is compatible with it. Giving them an initiative equall to that
> of the most cybered up character(including cyber and bio - trust me
> I have done it and they are both equally quick)

I never thought of the fact that they get healed easier then a
cybered-up-character. Thanks! My players when going through the book took
one look at the physical adept part and instantly thought that it was the
force points that a magician gets when generating a character that they
used to buy their 'abilities'. That would be unbelieavably wrong, but then
they tried to point out to me that a street samurai, with a couple of wired
reflexes, some spurs of hand razors and maybe a skillsoft or two would kick
a phyisical adept to Jupiter and leave them there, if the adept only had 6
points to "Spend". I thought they had something going there. Is the
character generation on SR TO powerful?

>--
> Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
> Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
> That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.
>
>GCS d>d- h s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UAVSL++>UAVSL+++ p--(aren't we all?)
> L+>L+++ 3 N++ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ !5 !j- r+++(--) !G
> v(++) b+++ D++ b- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?

Tobias Strube
University of Tasmania.

"Run Dude!!"
"No way! I'm a Derrick, and Derricks don't run."
- A player plagarising a New Zealand movie during a playing session.
Message no. 29
From: Toby <t_strube@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 17:44:10 +1000
>> > G'day, I'm a new member to this list and I've only been game
>> > mastering shadowrun for a few months. I have a couple of questions that I
>> > would appreciate being answered.
>>
>> G'day tobias. Another Australian eh? As far as I know, this makes 3 of us on
>> the list.
>
>I think you'll find there's a few of us on the list. I lurk a lot.

Hey, Aren't you on the earthdawn list as well? Cool, a lot of us
Australians playing excellent role-playing games!!
>
>> > 1) For the physical adept (in 2nd edition), do other players of shadowrun
>> > believe that it is fair to give the physical adept only his magic rating in
>> > points to buy the abilities they can use. My players seem to think that
>> > sic x points isn't enough, but I though I might ask some people who have
>> > played for longer then we have.
>
>>From experience I think it's enough, after all they can initiate to get more
>magic points. Of course, if your physad players are like ours, they'll bitch
>and whinge about it all. :-)
>
>Chris
>
>Chris Ryan | Earthdawn List: earthdawn@********.iquest.com
>QDPI/QUT | To subscribe send a message (no subj reqd) to
>Brisbane Qld Australia | majordomo@********.iquest.com with:
>chrisr@****.qut.edu.au | subscribe earthdawn

Tobias Strube
University of Tasmania.

"Run Dude!!"
"No way! I'm a Derrick, and Derricks don't run."
- A player plagarising a New Zealand movie during a playing session.
Message no. 30
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 01:08:14 -0700
On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, Toby wrote:

> I never thought of the fact that they get healed easier then a
> cybered-up-character. Thanks! My players when going through the book took
> one look at the physical adept part and instantly thought that it was the
> force points that a magician gets when generating a character that they
> used to buy their 'abilities'. That would be unbelieavably wrong, but then
> they tried to point out to me that a street samurai, with a couple of wired
> reflexes, some spurs of hand razors and maybe a skillsoft or two would kick
> a phyisical adept to Jupiter and leave them there, if the adept only had 6
> points to "Spend". I thought they had something going there. Is the
> character generation on SR TO powerful?
>

Not really. A rigger could take out a Sam with a missle from his
Panzer, or a mage could fry him with magic from long distance
(Line-of-sight). Each archetype has advantages and disadvantages. If
all characters are "powerful" then they are all relatively the same.
Granted a cybered up character will most often kick ass in combat, but
not always. And combat is not always needed. Anyways, later on, the
Phys Adept can get more points to get, say Killing Hands of Deadly and
Increase Initiative +3d6 and kick any sammies butt.


Kyle Kohler

Beans Beans, the magical fruit!
Message no. 31
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 12:31:30 +0100
> I never thought of the fact that they get healed easier then a
> cybered-up-character. Thanks! My players when going through the book took
> one look at the physical adept part and instantly thought that it was the
> force points that a magician gets when generating a character that they
> used to buy their 'abilities'. That would be unbelieavably wrong, but then
> they tried to point out to me that a street samurai, with a couple of wired
> reflexes, some spurs of hand razors and maybe a skillsoft or two would kick
> a phyisical adept to Jupiter and leave them there, if the adept only had 6
> points to "Spend". I thought they had something going there. Is the
> character generation on SR TO powerful?

It depends, SR is not fuc***g Dee-n-Dee. You see in SR starting
characters are considered to be runners (read members of an elite group) they
are not some wimpy idiots trying to earn their first level. Runners are
supposed to be able to walk all over a single opponent and even a small group
shoul present no major difficulty to a runner.

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS d>d- h s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UAVSL++>UAVSL+++ p--(aren't we all?)
L+>L+++ 3 N++ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ !5 !j- r+++(--) !G
v(++) b+++ D++ b- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 32
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 20:56:18 +1000
Tobias writes:

> Is the character generation on SR TO powerful?

Well, I think it is. True, a runner is supposed to be able to walk all over
standard corp guards, but believe me (I've tried it) runners much less
powerful than the ones you can create by the book can too. I lower starting
attribute points, skills, tech and force points, and use the more metahumans
rule. I also restrict what weapons and gear can be purchased with tech.

Characters in my games start out pretty weak (relatively speaking), but are
still much better than regular corp goons. They learn to fear elite and
special response teams, and are much more careful planners, 'cause they know
they cannot just blast their way out of all high security instillations.
They also have something to look forward to in their futures. A cyberguy
starting with 0.1 essense has very litle to do in the way of character
advancement, likewise a mage with over half the spells in the book. When
they get paid 35000 nuyen for a run, they really value it, as there are
items of expensive equipment which they dont have, and the sammies still
have essense spare, and so need to pay for surgery when they get their
cyber. A cyberguy with no essense left can only improve (his cyber) by
removal of existing systems and replacement with better (namely alpha and
beta) systems. This is _very_ costly, and only likely to occur very
infrequently (who wants to rip out their wired 3, pay over 7 million, and
get wired 3 of alpha or beta class, thats assuming you can ever get 7 mil)

True, you can always upgrade skills and stats (note stats have an upper
limit, and with a from the book character, this is reached in the near
future rather than the distant future), rather than upgrading cyber or
spells. You can also go and get initiated, or summon and ally, if your a
mage, but I feel that these two things are for really powerful mages only,
and a character out of the book is already powerful enough. It is only a
simple step for the mage in the party to get initiated, and become the
nastiest spell slinger in the county. A mage with less stats/skills/spells
has more down to earth concerns, like getting that combat sense spell and
locking it on, rather than the "oh, is that five times I've been initiated
now?" type concerns.

For a campaign, I feel the out of the book characters run out of playability
sooner than lower powered ones. There is little to look forward to if you
start with wired 3, or a selction of spells which contains more spells than
the UCLA library. It adds another dimension to the advancement of your
character if you can have cyberware installed (very few out of the book made
cyberguys ever get any new cyber installed), and it improves the games fun
when the someone turns to the mage and asks if he can levitate them over the
fence, and the mage replys "um, er, well, sorry, I actually dont have that
spell", instead of "yeah, sure, and I'll make you invisible to people and
machines, add 4 to your body in case an ultrasound camera spots you, and be
ready to cast hellblast on the first thing that spots you, (all for the one
low price - you want more, we'll give you more, this fantastic set of steak
knives...)". Neccessity is the mother of invention and all that.

Well, enough shit has spewed forth from my fingertips to give all those with
differing views far more than enough ammunition to completetly shoot me down
in flames.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 33
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 13:14:40 METDST
>
> Tobias writes:
>
> > Is the character generation on SR TO powerful?
>
> Well, I think it is. True, a runner is supposed to be able to walk all over
> standard corp guards, but believe me (I've tried it) runners much less
> powerful than the ones you can create by the book can too. I lower starting
> attribute points, skills, tech and force points, and use the more metahumans
> rule. I also restrict what weapons and gear can be purchased with tech.

[major snip]

> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

This is a problem I'm starting to feel. I can't write adventures that
are challenging for chars (not even initiate!) that walk over EVERY
NPC I throw at them.

One time I've deployed five secret agent into a building. Those NPCs
were built from a post here that converted James Bond stats from the
omonimous (sp?) rpg. They had ridicolously high stats (Int 9, reaction
14+4D6 [!], heavy pistols 11, seduction 9 :), threat rating 5 and so on)

Well, they started for first, shoot everyone with burst from savalette
guardians. Then was the turn of the players.

The end of the story was: me, with hangin' face looking at my NPCs being
wiped out by two trolls with combat axes, the players, smiling and getting
some S wounds and telling me "that was really hard...".

My intention was to KILL THEM ALL! Actually I managed to kill one...

Now I can't even start a run without offering some BIG nuyen...

But, last week, I've bougth the Lone Star sourcebook. Maybe someone
will be caught with the weapons visible, and then... goodbye unregistered
cyberware!

Well, you have just listened to my rablings. Now it's time for commercials
and see you tomorrow.

Bye, Paolo

--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
Message no. 34
From: Eve Forward <ez019741@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 04:19:47 -0700
Tobias writes:

> Is the character generation on SR TO powerful?

Damion writes:

>Well, I think it is.

(and then follows up with how he curtails starting characters...)

Hm, that's fine, but that's not the only way... in our game, I've
got a character with 245 earned Karma, and I still come within
3 boxes of death every other game. We are by no means able to
"kick ass over standard corp guards"; our opponents are not
only tough, they're nasty and clever, and it's usally a pretty
fair fight. We could probably kick ass over common street punks,
but if we go against the big people, chances are they've hired
some pretty tough cookies themselves. Nothin's to say that a
professional corp guard with access to security-level equip,
regular training, a grueling fitness regimen and a well-balanced
diet can't be as tough as Joe Shadowrunner who spends a lot of
his time hanging out in seedy bars looking cool. In short,
generated characters are only as powerful as you let them be.
If the competition's tougher, then there's no problem.

just my 2 cents...

-E
Message no. 35
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 21:31:15 +1000
-E writes:

> Hm, that's fine, but that's not the only way... in our game, I've
> got a character with 245 earned Karma, and I still come within
> 3 boxes of death every other game. We are by no means able to
> "kick ass over standard corp guards"; our opponents are not
> only tough, they're nasty and clever, and it's usally a pretty
> fair fight. We could probably kick ass over common street punks,
> but if we go against the big people, chances are they've hired
> some pretty tough cookies themselves. Nothin's to say that a
> professional corp guard with access to security-level equip,
> regular training, a grueling fitness regimen and a well-balanced
> diet can't be as tough as Joe Shadowrunner who spends a lot of
> his time hanging out in seedy bars looking cool. In short,
> generated characters are only as powerful as you let them be.
> If the competition's tougher, then there's no problem.

Too true, but it very quicky turns into an escalating power struggle. The
copr goons have LMGs, players take out corp goons (after tough fight) and
get LMGs, next time corp goons have had a budget increase and pack APDS
ammo... and so it goes. True, there are ways around this, but they soon get
pretty unrealistic. As does the corp goons who have wired three, all 65 of
them in the building, just so they can compete with the runners. If
carefully moderated, such things only occur slowly, and thats fine. They
occur even slower if they characters aren't so damn tough to begin with.
Makes a campaign last longer, while still remaining in the beleivable
realms.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 36
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 13:38:07 METDST
>
> -E writes:
>
> > Hm, that's fine, but that's not the only way... in our game, I've
[snip]
>
> Too true, but it very quicky turns into an escalating power struggle. The
> copr goons have LMGs, players take out corp goons (after tough fight) and
> get LMGs, next time corp goons have had a budget increase and pack APDS
> ammo... and so it goes. True, there are ways around this, but they soon get
[snip]

> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

That's ok. But how to adjust an already SO bad situation? Should
I arrest them all? :)

Bye, Paolo

--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
Message no. 37
From: Eve Forward <ez019741@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 04:51:58 -0700
> Too true, but it very quicky turns into an escalating power struggle. The
> copr goons have LMGs, players take out corp goons (after tough fight) and
> get LMGs, next time corp goons have had a budget increase and pack APDS
> ammo... and so it goes. True, there are ways around this, but they soon get
[snip]

> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au


The main thing I've noticed about our "enemy" is that
they're clever. They call for backup, they have magical
support, they don't underestimate us. They set up snipers.
They consult contacts and get info. When we pass through,
they go over the place and heaven help the person who's
left so much as a fleck of dandruff behind, 'cause they'll
find us. They use drones, and tactics, and air support.
We often end up killing ourselves. We pack serious
ammo, and it's bound to cook off in a nasty way. A single
Chaotic World spell had us shooting each other blindly. We
smash Banshees into magical barriers (yes, that was me, in fact).
We fumble grenades and chunky-salsa our own people. It is,
in fact, enormous fun getting slagged all to hell, just because
we've got to admire some of the NASTY stuff our GM cooks up.
Just be nasty to your players. Life is not fair and the world
of Shadowrun is harsh ans cruel, the life of a Shadowrunner is
nasty, brutish, and short. There will always be someone better
than you, you are never completely safe, and every victory is
just another dozen people gunning for your butt.

Have a nice day, chummer. :)

-E
Message no. 38
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 21:54:21 +1000
>
> >
> > -E writes:
> >
> > > Hm, that's fine, but that's not the only way... in our game, I've
> [snip]
> >
> > Too true, but it very quicky turns into an escalating power struggle. The
> > copr goons have LMGs, players take out corp goons (after tough fight) and
> > get LMGs, next time corp goons have had a budget increase and pack APDS
> > ammo... and so it goes. True, there are ways around this, but they soon get
> [snip]
>
> > Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au
>
> That's ok. But how to adjust an already SO bad situation? Should
> I arrest them all? :)
>
> Bye, Paolo
>
> --
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
> marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
>


--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
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Message no. 39
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 22:17:55 +1000
Paola writes:

> That's ok. But how to adjust an already SO bad situation? Should
> I arrest them all? :)

Fuck it to hell and back! I thought I had those fuck ups under control, it
seems our mailer did that when I saved things, OK, let me tell you all a
little story (Mainly to keep my but out of the fire :-)). I use a slip link
to Uni from the college where I live. Now, it used to crash every 20 mins to
2 hours, so I got into the habit of saving everything I typed, as I typed
it. I'd had to retype long messages three times once too often... Now,
recently the mailer started sending out mesages like the one you all just
saw a few momnets ago - pretty useless eh? It also sent out messages with
only half of what I'd written. I worked out that the messages it sent out
with half of the contents had the contents that the message contained when I
first saved it. So I fixed this problem by saving as much as I liked, as I
was used to, and then not sending the message. I would select reply again,
and read in the saved message. This worked fine, and half messages stopped
being sent. But the reply messages with only the message I was replying to
still puzzle me, this is only the second, and it had better well be the last.
If any Unix Lord out there can inform me of how to stop the problem, I would
be most pleased to know. Thanks for listening folks. :-)

Here is the original message, exactly (except for the quote above) as it was
sent last time:

Perhaps it is time the characters retired, voluntarily or not... Old age
cathing up with them? Time for a few stat points to be taken off? Some corp
they messed up bad decides to test out a new kinetic railgun on the runners,
and the runners hear about it, they can decide to have their characters fade
into the light, and retire, or you could "retire" them permanently. Have the
next ADPS sniper round to stike them result in some major body part/organ
loss/damage which cant be cyber replaced, like paralysis due to a spinal
hit, or brain damage due to a head hit. Being arrested and thrown in a MAX
security prison for, say, thirty consecurive life sentances is always an
option (providing you can capture the runners). Not much can stand up to a
guy in military class armour toting APDS ammo, being astrally overwatched by
an 8th level initiate, and with forteen other members of his squad backing
him up. Try a Lone Star cyborg containment suad decked up like that to
arrest them.

Or, alternatively, you can always sit your players down, and have a nice
chat with them about character power levels, and about how its about time
their characters retired as legends. "Remember when your &&&&
characters
reached 46th level, and they were retired, after you killed 14 other gods,
and cleaned out the lower planes of hell...". If nice chatting with them
doesnt work, how about laying down an ultimation, like "I hear Renraku is
trialing a new man portable tactical nuke, and they're looking for test
targets to try it on, wanna volunteer?...". Make it a simple choice: retire,
or die.

Another option is to do something like someone else's game has; take it to
other planets. If you're really imaginative (not like me) you could suddenly
have Ares declare it has a functional sublight speed space drive coming onto
the production line, and begin to explore other planets. Once the true
Sci-Fi aspect gets in, a whole new line of full coversion cyborgs, advanced
laser weaponry etc can soon follow.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 40
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 11:53:23 -0400
Tobais Writes: [is cahracter generation in SRII too powerful?]

Damion writes: [empahtically (and rather log-windedly) yes.]

I write:

Only if you let it become so. Keep in mind that runners are assumed to
have experience/know-how/history that allows them to be "better" than the
average guy off the street. So characters generally start off with
slightly higher attributes/skills/whatever, though rarely are they better
in ALL of those categories.
Anyway, that said, the game is still deadly enough that ANYONE can kill
you. ANYONE. All you have to do is be in the wrong place at the wrong
time (with the wrong dice). Or, you can have pretty much anybody point
an automatic weapon at you. Or have them come three or four at a time.
One thing to remember is that SRII is a game of modifiers. If you
leave them out, the game gets too easy, and you do start to walk all over
everything. If you leave them in, the game is quite lethal. That
outrageously skilled and wired street sam still will have a fairly poor
chance of hitting when he's shooting in poor light conditions at a moving
target while running for cover himself. But in all too many games that I
have played, the GM says, "Well, he's in medium range...target number 5,"
at which point the sam hoses the bad guy completely. The modifiers are
there for a reason. They will initially slow you down a bit, but once
you start to use them routinely, they get a lot easier to remember, and
much easier to use quickly.
As for Damion's character advancement scheme, I disagree. There is so
much out there to aspire to, that you can't start out with no avenue for
advancement. I run two campaigns and attend two more (between trying to
get an engineering degree) and I have yet to have a character who has
nowhere to advance to. Also keep in mind that SRII is a roleplaying
game. Don't worry so much about getting better stats, gear, tech,
spells, etc. As long as you do everything in character, you will never
have a problem deciding how to spend your ill gotten gains.

Marc (who did not flame Damion, and actually uses a similar idea, but
in a MUCH different campaign setting. So there, Mr. Milliken. No
need to worry about flaming from this quarter. Yet. ;) )
Message no. 41
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 12:17:35 -0400
Paolo writes: [How do I stop my out-of-control players?]

Arresting them works, but if they are that out-of-control, they may
just decide to kill the arresting officers (most unfortunate). As I said
in an earlier post (that you'll probably get >after< this one...gotta
love that listserv/email action!) SRII is a game of modifiers. If you
have a problem with players that are WAY too powerful, you first need to
stop. Then look at the last combat that they got in. Did you include
ALL of the modifiers? If so, then you're screwed, and your players
really are out of control. But that can be fixed too.
For example: just how bad of an attitude do the players have? Who
will hire these arrogant, unprofessional schmucks? The players may be
death on legs in a combat situation, so put them into a run where it is a
social situation. Or better yet, get them to voluntarily go into prison
to do a run. No weapons. Heh. (By the way, you'd be surprised how many
people fall for this gag. Especially considering you can offer tons of
money. Of course, you have no intention of paying...grin.)
Or better yet. How many Corps have the players pissed off? Keep in
mind that any sufficiently motivated corp will give its enemies >no
rest<, so when the party is healing those serious wounds, have the clinic
get attacked. Players on the run quickly regret their decisions. If
they run too far, they are also without the benefit of their contacts.
Ouch.
Also keep in mind that corp goons are cheap. If they have little or no
cyberware/bioware, you can afford LOTS!!! And twenty guys with
submachine guns is a scary sight. I don't care how good you are. If
those goons are smart and take such opportunities as cover, etc. they
will rock all over the party. Twenty guns = eventual loss of combat pool
allocated to dodge = eventual death. And those twenty gunners don't even
need to be augmented.
So give some of these a try and I guarantee, your out of control players
will hate you in no time. :)

Marc (sorry that his posts are reaching novel length)
Message no. 42
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 12:37:53 -0400
Eve Forward writes: [the life of a Shadowrunner is Hobbesian at best.]

Bravo. You hit the nail on the head. Dead on, chummer.

Marc (thinking that he and Eve play similar styles.)
Message no. 43
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 14:16:38 -0700
Well Paolo, I'd suggest that you start GMing smart.

On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, Paolo Marcucci wrote:

> >
> > -E writes:
> >
> > > Hm, that's fine, but that's not the only way... in our game, I've
> [snip]
> >
> > Too true, but it very quicky turns into an escalating power struggle. The
> > copr goons have LMGs, players take out corp goons (after tough fight) and
> > get LMGs, next time corp goons have had a budget increase and pack APDS
> > ammo... and so it goes. True, there are ways around this, but they soon get
> [snip]
>
>
> That's ok. But how to adjust an already SO bad situation? Should
> I arrest them all? :)
>

No, just put them into a tight situation. Like with mages, elementals,
traps, security devices, decent entry systems and guards inside of
armored casements. Read the NAGRL, FOF, and the Corporate Shadowfiles
for ideas. Don't run your game like it was D&D, run the corporations and
the cops like they were real. Study how the military handles security in
a "no-entry" zone. Watch the Carbinari as they move through the streets,
read up on OTO Mellarta and their security. Make it real. Evaluate the
threats to your corporations like a military person would, then set up
your security.

BTW, Da Big 'B' is gone. Dead as a toad on the highway. She was one of
my 350+ Karma pool player's characters. She tried a surriptious entry on
a military experimentation labratory. The mage on overwatch spotted her
and they simply filled the corridor with high velocity steel and gas.
Anyone can be taken down, and most good security systems will do the job
just fine.

Ivy
Message no. 44
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 14:18:13 -0700
RE: Eve's reply.

That's the way to go for it. Thanks Eve, at least you play in a real
SRII game.

Ivy
Message no. 45
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 14:32:34 -0700
RE: Marc Renouf's answers to Paolo's question.

Good job Marc!

That really IS the way to handle the players. You GMs out there, play
your corps like they were your own private property. Plan their security
and their counterforce reactions. Make the players sweat for everything
they get.

Ivy
Message no. 46
From: Chris Ryan <chrisr@****.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 11:08:57 --1000
> >> G'day tobias. Another Australian eh? As far as I know, this makes 3 of us on
> >> the list.
> >
> >I think you'll find there's a few of us on the list. I lurk a lot.
>
> Hey, Aren't you on the earthdawn list as well? Cool, a lot of us
> Australians playing excellent role-playing games!!

My signature could've been a give-away... ;-)

Chris

Chris Ryan | Earthdawn List: earthdawn@********.iquest.com
QDPI/QUT | To subscribe send a message (no subj reqd) to
Brisbane Qld Australia | majordomo@********.iquest.com with:
chrisr@****.qut.edu.au | subscribe earthdawn
Message no. 47
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 12:44:06 +1000
>Tobias writes:
>
>> Is the character generation on SR TO powerful?
>
>Damion writes:
>
>>Well, I think it is.
>
>(and then follows up with how he curtails starting characters...)
>
>Hm, that's fine, but that's not the only way... in our game, I've
>got a character with 245 earned Karma, and I still come within
>3 boxes of death every other game. We are by no means able to
>"kick ass over standard corp guards"; our opponents are not
>only tough, they're nasty and clever, and it's usally a pretty
>fair fight. We could probably kick ass over common street punks,
>but if we go against the big people, chances are they've hired
>some pretty tough cookies themselves. Nothin's to say that a
>professional corp guard with access to security-level equip,
>regular training, a grueling fitness regimen and a well-balanced
>diet can't be as tough as Joe Shadowrunner who spends a lot of
>his time hanging out in seedy bars looking cool. In short,
>generated characters are only as powerful as you let them be.
>If the competition's tougher, then there's no problem.
>
>just my 2 cents...
>
>-E

There are a few other points as well, one is Shadowrun is a
Roleplaying game noone ever said that characters would always disagree. Two
you are normally fighting on the oposition's home ground and this really
lets them play nasty tricks, ("O.K. our men have air filters so lets flood
that corridor with carbon monoxide").
Then what happens after a successful run, probably nothing however
if the band is successfuly running too often (for the Corp's tastes) what
is to stop the corp hiring the best to go after the runners? Or to lead
them into a trap ("Um.. guys is that a dragon sitting on top of that
Panzer?").
Corps are not nice people and have no respect for anyone who is not
rich or in their employ, so you really believe that they will worry about
casualties when they have someone throw a couple of dozen grenades into the
runners' favourite watering hole?


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 48
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 13:02:13 +1000
Marc writes:

> Anyway, that said, the game is still deadly enough that ANYONE can kill
> you. ANYONE.

True, I find SR a rather deadly game. The only problem with this is that it
often turns into "he who shoots first wins". And he who shoots first is
usually runners.

> As for Damion's character advancement scheme, I disagree. There is so
> much out there to aspire to, that you can't start out with no avenue for
> advancement.

True, but I didnt say that. I only said it limits your avenues. You would
have to have a pretty good idea of what you wanted your character to be if
you were to use the books table, and start out 1/2 way there already. I feel
that by going back that step further, to when the character started first
running the shadows, a superior character results. The characetr has more to
develop, rather than having a three page history written up at the start of
the game (or not even that in some games I've played in). Ever notice how
the more memorable characters in SR fiction all started out pretty low in the
way of power and abilities. Like the venerable Sam Verner, the ganger in
Shadowplay, and the troll in Changeling. They all began with close to
nothing, and have much more developed characters than people they meet, who
only have their background told to us. How would it be if the first book in
the "secrets of Power" trilogy was only a three page summary, and Sam
made his debut (sp?) as an already experienced runner. It would be no where
near as good as it is (not that its a too greatly written peice of work
anyway :-)).

A while back someone commented on the real basics, the "do you remember when
you got your first radio shack deck" comment, with the "lets get back down
to earth" bit. If most deckers were asked that question, their response
would be akin to "Radio Shack, HAH, I wouldnt touch one of those with a
twleve foot long stun baton, I started out with a Fuchi Cyber 7". Yet, at
some stage, some long time ago, they must have had a pretty shitty deck,
same as a cyberguy, at some stage, didnt have his cyber. It adds an extra
dimension to the character if these aspects of the characters history are
roleplayed rather than just written up (or forgotten) in a breif history.

Ivy writes:

[stuff on military operations, and how _nasty_ corps should be]

If you run your corps like that, them I'm surprised any characters (created
BTB or not) ever survive their first run. You must have a pretty high
character death rate, or players who have _lots_ of smarts. Its all too easy
to make an impenetrable corp fortress, that nobody could get into. The
runners need some breaks, otherwise they'll just cark it all the time.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

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f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 49
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 14:37:41 +1000
>RE: Marc Renouf's answers to Paolo's question.
>
>Good job Marc!
>
>That really IS the way to handle the players. You GMs out there, play
>your corps like they were your own private property. Plan their security
>and their counterforce reactions. Make the players sweat for everything
>they get.
>

But do it before they make their plans so that they could detect the
weaknesses or even stumble into the weak spots accidently.

>Ivy


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 50
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 14:47:33 +1000
>> Hey, Aren't you on the earthdawn list as well? Cool, a lot of us
>> Australians playing excellent role-playing games!!
>
>My signature could've been a give-away... ;-)
>
>Chris
>
>Chris Ryan | Earthdawn List: earthdawn@********.iquest.com
>QDPI/QUT | To subscribe send a message (no subj reqd) to
>Brisbane Qld Australia | majordomo@********.iquest.com with:
>chrisr@****.qut.edu.au | subscribe earthdawn

What about your sig???


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 51
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 08:56:06 METDST
>
> Paola writes:
>
> > That's ok. But how to adjust an already SO bad situation? Should
> > I arrest them all? :)
>
> Fuck it to hell and back! I thought I had those fuck ups under control, it
> seems our mailer did that when I saved things, OK, let me tell you all a
[very good advice snipped]

> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

Damion. I can understand everything, be a nice guy, bring flowers at
my mom's birthday and so on...

But there a thing that upsets me:

DON'T CALL ME PAOLA!
^
+-------------- That's a female name!

:):):):):):):)

--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
Message no. 52
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 21:10:09 +1000
Paolo writes:

> Damion. I can understand everything, be a nice guy, bring flowers at
> my mom's birthday and so on...
>
> But there a thing that upsets me:
>
> DON'T CALL ME PAOLA!
> ^
> +-------------- That's a female name!
>
> :):):):):):):)

Oops, I seem to recall doing something like that before too. Dont know what
it was I called you then though. I'm really quite sorry though. It was quite
unintentional, and I meant no disrespect (heres a guy who values his
masculinity :-)). Wont happen again (I promise :-)).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

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f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 53
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 10:16:13 -0700
Where are you coming from Damion?

On Fri, 22 Jul 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Marc writes:
>
> > Anyway, that said, the game is still deadly enough that ANYONE can kill
> > you. ANYONE.
>
> True, I find SR a rather deadly game. The only problem with this is that it
> often turns into "he who shoots first wins". And he who shoots first is
> usually runners.

Well, the first time it isn't, things get nasty. <grin>

> > As for Damion's character advancement scheme, I disagree. There is so
> > much out there to aspire to, that you can't start out with no avenue for
> > advancement.
>
> True, but I didnt say that. I only said it limits your avenues. You would
>
> A while back someone commented on the real basics, the "do you remember when
> you got your first radio shack deck" comment, with the "lets get back down

Here you are talking about starting the characters out weak, building
them up gradually. Playing up a history. Why?

Why not let the Players start their characters out weak if they want to,
or strong if they want to? This game is designed to allow for the
Players decisions. They design their characters, what they design is
really none of your business. Your business is to design things for the
Player's Characters to do afterwards.

>
> Ivy writes:
>
> [stuff on military operations, and how _nasty_ corps should be]
>
> If you run your corps like that, them I'm surprised any characters (created
> BTB or not) ever survive their first run. You must have a pretty high
> character death rate, or players who have _lots_ of smarts. Its all too easy
> to make an impenetrable corp fortress, that nobody could get into. The
> runners need some breaks, otherwise they'll just cark it all the time.

It all come down to how honest a GM are you. Do you play your world
honestly? Or do you give the players undeserved wins? You, as GM, are
the world. A good GM plays their world as realistically (given the game
mechanics) as possible. Anything else is cheating.

BTW: The part you allude to was an answer to Paolo, who had a problem
with over-powered (for him) PCs. Those were things I use normally in my
game. If you are a greenie, fresh on the scene, with no rep at all,
no-one but an idiot would hire you for a run into a corp. And that's the
way I run things. Greenies get hired for recovery work, muscle work,
hi-jackings, detective work and the like. Once your character has a rep,
and it better be that of a cautious, successful runner, then the people
who hire people for the big money runs start to take an interest. And
even then you start by going into the tinycorps and indies. You gotta
have some serious street rep before someone will think about you for a
run on a subsiduary of one of the big 8. And you gotta be
near-invincible before someone will think of you in regards to a run into
Renraku or the like.

Starters in my game get starter jobs. Silver Angel the handout in the
SRI GM Screen, was about what you'd get after playing daily in my game
for 6 months. IF your character had a good street rep, that is.

GMing is a job, it's hard to do it correctly. SRII is the best set of
rules, as long as they're followed BTB, to do it with.

My 2 nuYen.

Ivy
Message no. 54
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 16:49:54 +1000
Ivy writes:

> Why not let the Players start their characters out weak if they want to,
> or strong if they want to? This game is designed to allow for the
> Players decisions. They design their characters, what they design is
> really none of your business. Your business is to design things for the
> Player's Characters to do afterwards.

True, good point. But then you gotta watch out for them munchkins with the
four titanium cyber limbs :-)

> It all come down to how honest a GM are you. Do you play your world
> honestly? Or do you give the players undeserved wins? You, as GM, are
> the world. A good GM plays their world as realistically (given the game
> mechanics) as possible. Anything else is cheating.

It mentions in the rules about characetr death. It says "fudge it". If you
play everything that realistically, then you soon loose players, as all
their characters die off in their first run.

> Starters in my game get starter jobs. Silver Angel the handout in the
> SRI GM Screen, was about what you'd get after playing daily in my game
> for 6 months. IF your character had a good street rep, that is.

Didnt you find that run a bit underpowered. I mean, a top secret facility,
with faulty security cameras, faulty doors, and rating 2 and 3 ice on its
datastores? In my game the street sammy with a data jack, and a computer
skill of one used the deckers deck (you know the one already in there) and
almost took the data out. He was almost immune to any damage the ice could
do to him, its just he couldnt do jack shit back, a stalemate. I would
increse the effectiveness of it a tad if it were to be used again on some
other team. Mitsuhama corp would protect its facilities better than that, a
street gang equiped with weapons could launch a frontal assualt and take the
joint :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 55
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 18:36:47 +0000
Alexander writes:

> Can someone send me the rules for flash grenades and boosted (not wired)
> reflexes(SRII Sourcebook update has the stats but doesn't say what they do.
> And plaese don't send me "Shadowtech p.666" or something ,I don't have it.)

Have you got it yet, as if you dont, then I'll send it to you.

> Can magnification cybereyes combined with laser sight or smartgun/link be
> used as imaging scope?Can this be done on a Ranger-X-Bow(I thought you coul
> put a laser sight on it but i don't know about the smartgun.)

Well, it says in the main book that scopes (as in mag, LL, thermo) cannot be
used in conjunction with smartgun links. It also says that laser sights and
smartgun links cannot be used together.
As for if you have the mag in your eyes, I'd allow it to be used with laser
sighting and smartlinks. I dont think a bow is quite the same as a firearm
for the purposes of smartlinking. I'm even a bit sus about the laser sight
bit. The smartlink calculates the precise direction the barrel of the gun is
pointing, this is a little more difficult with a bow, the arrow you are
holding may not be quite pointing the same way as the smartgun link thinks it
is. Laser sights similarly, but the book allows 'em, so I can take that.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 56
From: "D.O.A. SECURITY" <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: questions
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 19:34:52 -0500
Ok, just a few of them.
1) How do you all deal with 'slit throat' stealth attacks.
Right now, I'd say perception against stealth and then staging up
or down depending on surprise. This works for the neck crackers, except
I put the attack as a resisted success test.
2) Has anyone come up with 'unusual' weapons? Like the multibarrel
pistol (just slap on a new barrel and load the ammo). Or a peppergun?
3) How easy is it to cut monowire? Can things be used to entangle
it? How would go about determining if the monowire actually got entangled.

See, not to many. Just a few.
Michael
aka Harlequin
(Just got HB and I'm so HAPPY!)
Message no. 57
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:55:53 +1100
D.O.A. SECURITY asks:

> 1) How do you all deal with 'slit throat' stealth attacks.
> Right now, I'd say perception against stealth and then staging up
> or down depending on surprise. This works for the neck crackers, except
> I put the attack as a resisted success test.

Don't forget there's the hand-to-hand rule for knocking someone out if
you manage to surprise them; it's some sort of Willpower or Body check.
Once they're unconscious, well...

The perception test vs Stealth is a minimum; our group doesn't allow
the sort of complete surprise and unalertness you need, if the victim
is reasonably awake or suspicious. After all, it equates to instant
death.

If you don't have complete surprise, you've got to do the whole
melee combat thing. The victim may have TN modifiers for the first
action of the fight.

> 3) How easy is it to cut monowire? Can things be used to entangle
> it? How would go about determining if the monowire actually got entangled.

You're on your own there. Monowire makes no sense; it's there because
it appears in a couple of cyberpunk novels. In my opinion, give up
trying to reason from physics or material science when it comes to
monofilaments - make rulings that maintain game balance.

Let it be entangle-able, and cut-able, like all other physical items
that can be turned into threads.

luke
Message no. 58
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:36:00 CDT
Michael asks:

[about slitting throats]
First, the target of the attack must be wearing armor that leaves the neck
exposed. Something like full security armor = no slit throat.

Next, roll stealth vs perception. Ties go to the defender. If the attacker
gets more successes, then:

Attacker makes his attack roll, adding combat pool dice, etc. TN is 4 (even
though both you and the target are stationary, you are aiming for a specific
body part).

Defender makes a damage resistance test, but cannot use any combat pool dice,
and armor is ignored.

[about special guns]
I had a character make a rifle (before FoF) that was bolt action, and fired
HMG rounds. He also made a hold-out pistol that was a single shot disposable
weapon that fired a MMG round. Other than that, my players have been happy
playing with the published weapons.

[about monowire]
As someone previously said, this is tricky stuff. From my knowledge of it as
stated in different SF novels, there are 3 ways to sever monowire:

Pull the ends apart, stretching it until it snaps. However, *I* for one would
not want to be holding either end.

Cut it with a laser or energy beam.

Attempt to cut it with another piece of monowire. However, there is a 50%
chance that the piece of wire you are using to cut with will be severed by
the one you are trying to cut.

As for it entangling, it gets tangled similar to regular string. However, if
you were to try and pull it tight, the knot will cut itself apart, and you
would end up with lots of little pieces of monowire laying around.

Hope this helps.

--Phoenix
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 59
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 22:53:51 EST
Luke writes:

> You're on your own there. Monowire makes no sense; it's there
because
> it appears in a couple of cyberpunk novels. In my opinion, give up
> trying to reason from physics or material science when it comes to
> monofilaments - make rulings that maintain game balance.
>
> Let it be entangle-able, and cut-able, like all other physical items
> that can be turned into threads.
Remember; monowire is not truly monomolecular. Just really, really
small. I have the stats for monowire, including its damage threshold,
but cannot get them until after Turkey-day. But I will post as soon as I
get them.


-----------------------------------------|
*****************QUOTE:***************** |
-----------------------------------------|
"Say Hello Riff!!!"
"Hello."-Rocky Horror Picture Show party.

Shadowdancer<BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
|Geek Code| GB d--(-d+) H+ s:+>s g+>!g p? au-- a-- w+++
v+ c+(++++) U--- P? !L !3 E? !N K- W M-- !V -po+ Y+ t !5
j R++ G+ tv+ b++ D+ B--- e+ u---(**) h f r++ !n y++(**)
Message no. 60
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:35:13 +1100
Pheonix writes:

> [about special guns]
> I had a character make a rifle (before FoF) that was bolt action, and fired
> HMG rounds. He also made a hold-out pistol that was a single shot disposable
> weapon that fired a MMG round. Other than that, my players have been happy
> playing with the published weapons.

Back when we used to play SR I, one of my players created two rebored
assault rifles. One he rebored to fire sporting rifle rounds (just to make
sure anything he hit with it really went down), and the other he rebored to
fire hold-out rounds. Hold-Out rounds you say? Yep, hold out rounds. The
fastest team member got to fire the hold out round outfitted assault rifle.
Back in SR I, hold outs had a staging of 1, and you could literally _shred_
peoples armour with them. After copping a SR I burst of that (which was, in
SR I, resolved round by round, resulting in even more armour shredding), the
rest of the team followed up with the regular weapons, and the victim had
little or no armour left to survive it. Worked reasonably well. As for SR
II, the only thing that particular player does now is pretend he's (what's
that chick outa Aliens?), and tape his assault rifle (with grenade launcher
of course) together to his shotgun (one of the burst fire ones of course).
There's no range short of about 1/2 a klick that he isn't effective with
that combination.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 61
From: "Daniel C. Vandersall" <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 10:22:20 EST
I've often considered a monowire garotte. Just pull the two
handles apart and stand behind the victim.....
Of couse, a platelet factory could ruin your day. Or maybe not.

Other ideas....

1. Fill a bullet with monowire. When the bullet tunnels into the target,
it breaks to release the monowire through the system.....nasty, and
probably expensive.

2. Fill a paintball with monowire. This could really hurt.

3. Monowire grenades--really really hurt.

4. 500-lb monowire bombs that control--release a literal explosion of
monowire over a 200-yard area... really really really really hurt.

"You silly bugger, your arm's off!!!!" "Just a flesh wound..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<<< Chap with wings. Five rounds rapid, fire!!!!!>>>

Firepower
Message no. 62
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 14:48:48 -0500
> 1. Fill a bullet with monowire. When the bullet tunnels into the target,
> it breaks to release the monowire through the system.....nasty, and
> probably expensive.
>
> 2. Fill a paintball with monowire. This could really hurt.
>
> 3. Monowire grenades--really really hurt.
>
> 4. 500-lb monowire bombs that control--release a literal explosion of
> monowire over a 200-yard area... really really really really hurt.
>
Anyone got a copy of Maximum Metal for CP? There is a mine in there (I
think) which strings a large area(like a corridoor or hallway) top to
bottom with razor wire. Any ideas on the subject?

Matt H.
Message no. 63
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 17:34:00 CDT
Damion Milliken wrote:

[stuff about taping a shotgun to an assault rifle that has a grenade launcher]

Why bother with the shotgun? Just get Anti-personnel rounds for the Grenade
Launcher. (For those of you that don't know, Anti-personnel rounds for a
grenade launcher look like a _big_ shotgun shell. They fire BB's that are
about the size of a pencil eraser.)

Some game stats I came up with for Anti-personnel GL rounds:

Damage code: 20S They are fired like a shotgun, using firearms skill. They
are assumed to have a permanent choke of 2 (for every 2 meters, reduce power
by 1, and spread them out a meter, as per SR II shotgun rules).

NOTE: These things are *Nasty* with a capital N. Fire one of these into a
room, and you can expect everyone in it to be seriously f*ck*d.

Oh, and I just remembered: They have a recoil mod of +4.

Also, they should be rather rare and/or expensive. I have heard that they can
cause damage to the GL itself, so you may want to roll a couple dice whenever
one is fired, and if the dice come up both ones the GL is rendered useless.

--Phoenix
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 64
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:23:26 +1100
Phoenix writes:

> Why bother with the shotgun?

'Cause he doesn't know about AP grenades? And I'm not about to tell him,
he'd get munchkinous then. I might use them against their characters one day
though... <evil GM grin>

> Damage code: 20S They are fired like a shotgun, using firearms skill. They
> are assumed to have a permanent choke of 2 (for every 2 meters, reduce power
> by 1, and spread them out a meter, as per SR II shotgun rules).

Ok, do you give them the Flechette rules, like normal shotguns get?

> Oh, and I just remembered: They have a recoil mod of +4.

Hows this come into play, grenade launchers are SS weapons. Also, wouldn't
other grenades also have a +4 recoil penalty?

They sound fun though to me.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 65
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:07:00 CDT
More about Anti-personnel grenades:

Yes, they use flechette rules, like shotguns.

The reason they have a recoil mod of +4 is because the ArmTech MGL-6 and
MGL-12 out of Fof are _SA_ weapons.

Any more questions? *smile*

--Phoenix
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 66
From: Chris McKinnon <cmckinno@********.CA>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:03:07 -0400
On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:

> Anyone got a copy of Maximum Metal for CP? There is a mine in there (I
> think) which strings a large area(like a corridoor or hallway) top to
> bottom with razor wire. Any ideas on the subject?
>
> Matt H.

If anybody has ever read Warhammer 40k, they also have grenades, bombs
and mines that contain "Bio Wire", which is an organic form of monowire.
It is kind of like a hawthorn gone bad.

==============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the one with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmckinno@********.ca =
Message no. 67
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:14:20 +1100
Phoenix writes:

> Yes, they use flechette rules, like shotguns.

Aha, ok, then should the damage be 20S(f), or 20D(f)?

> The reason they have a recoil mod of +4 is because the ArmTech MGL-6 and
> MGL-12 out of Fof are _SA_ weapons.

Didn't think of that. Do these weapons (my FoF is keeping my Grimything
company) have a +4 recoil modifier when firing regular shots?

> Any more questions? *smile*

Do you really think a power of 20 is appropriate? The only weapon with
comparable power is a missile. 20 is pretty darn hefty. And what kind of
ranges do you have for it? Obviously max range is going to be 40m (power is
zero by that time due to spread).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 68
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 06:18:00 CDT
Even more about the Anti-personnel grenade:

Yes, the damage code is 20S(f). Otherwise they would be *way* too deadly.

The MGL-6 and MGL-12 have a recoil mod of +2 when firing normal grenades. The
reason I use +4 for AP grenades is this: A normal grenade is launched towards
its target by the explosive force of propellant, which simply has to move
the grenade from point A to point B. Firing an AP grenade is similar to
setting off a normal grenade _inside the barrel_, and channeling all the
shrapnel down the tube and at your enemy. This would generate a significantly
higher recoil, in my opinion.

As for 20S(f) being a bit high, this is significantly less than what the
damage code should probably be. In real life, these rounds have a kill zone
(if I recall correctly) of about 20 meters, and will do damage out to about
60 meters. And yes, I know this puts its damage code up there with missiles,
but a missile's damage code remains constant, even at long range, while
the damage code for this weapon deteriorates as you get farther away from
the firer.

Which brings up the topic of ranges. I use the shotgun range table.

Anything else? By the way, I have noted that Damion and I have been bantering
back and forth on this without any input from anyone else. Do any other people
on this list have comments or suggestions?

--Phoenix
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 69
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:09:24 -0500
>
> On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:
>
> > Anyone got a copy of Maximum Metal for CP? There is a mine in there (I
> > think) which strings a large area(like a corridoor or hallway) top to
> > bottom with razor wire. Any ideas on the subject?
> >
> > Matt H.
>
> If anybody has ever read Warhammer 40k, they also have grenades, bombs
> and mines that contain "Bio Wire", which is an organic form of monowire.
> It is kind of like a hawthorn gone bad.
>

Where is that? I don't remember seeing it.

Matt H.
Message no. 70
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:24:17 -0700
On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Daniel C. Vandersall wrote:

> Other ideas....
>
> 1. Fill a bullet with monowire. When the bullet tunnels into the target,
> it breaks to release the monowire through the system.....nasty, and
> probably expensive.

Are we talking coiled monowire or what here. Also have you considered
that the bullet would probably not mushroom enough to effectively deploy
the wire thus it wouldnt be to hot an idea. unless you are talking about
strung-buck shot rounds for a shotgun. This would be a good idea. Take
two tripple ought buck shot balls(coated with dikote or full of mercury or
even covered with a contact poison-not DMSO'd since the poison would be
absorbed into the ball itself) and string a strand of monowire between
them! Thats good!
>
> 2. Fill a paintball with monowire. This could really hurt.

Samr as above, as far as the deployability is concerned. Also as the paint
ball traveled down the barrel the wire would shred the jell cap of it, so
it wouldnt work well I think.

> 3. Monowire grenades--really really hurt.

No complaints here!:)
>
> 4. 500-lb monowire bombs that control--release a literal explosion of
> monowire over a 200-yard area... really really really really hurt.

Not a bad idea but the pre-fragmenting of the wire would be costly I think.

Thanks Edge
Message no. 71
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:31:39 -0700
On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, David L. Hoff wrote:

> Why bother with the shotgun? Just get Anti-personnel rounds for the Grenade
> Launcher. (For those of you that don't know, Anti-personnel rounds for a
> grenade launcher look like a _big_ shotgun shell. They fire BB's that are
> about the size of a pencil eraser.)

Are you talking about the 37mm and or 40mm rounds?
>
> Damage code: 20S They are fired like a shotgun, using firearms skill. They
> are assumed to have a permanent choke of 2 (for every 2 meters, reduce power
> by 1, and spread them out a meter, as per SR II shotgun rules).
> Oh, and I just remembered: They have a recoil mod of +4.
> Also, they should be rather rare and/or expensive. I have heard that they can
> cause damage to the GL itself, so you may want to roll a couple dice whenever
> one is fired, and if the dice come up both ones the GL is rendered useless.

You ever fired a 40mm round? Of the type you describe? The reason I ask is
that in Korea we had lots to play with. The manuel say in two differant
places to aim at 1) the foot of the enemy at 30 meters and or 2) aim at
the head of the target at 30 meters. Any one want to guess where we
ended up aiming for? Any way the point is that the 40mm apers round has
21 double ought buck shot pellets in it and was used in nam to make the
cong dive for cover when the element was ambushed. When used by 3-5 men
in the same area they were effective in this way. Other than that they
make a real neat sound being fired!

Edge
Message no. 72
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:36:45 -0700
> Hows this come into play, grenade launchers are SS weapons. Also, wouldn't
> other grenades also have a +4 recoil penalty?

I wore a field jacket, moppsuit, kevlar pasgt vest and a web harnes and
fired the damb thing and it still hurt! Even being the excellent grenidier
that I was the pure "Whafuc!" of the recoil was enough to make me stop and
think twice, befor I fired another.

Edge
Message no. 73
From: Chris McKinnon <cmckinno@********.CA>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 23:41:36 -0400
Regarding Bio-wire bombs, etc.:

On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:

> >
>
> Where is that? I don't remember seeing it.
>
> Matt H.
>

Look on p. 97 of Warhammer 40k (2nd Ed.), for the Bio-wire stuff.

==============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the one with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmckinno@********.ca =
Message no. 74
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:41:06 -0700
On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> Do you really think a power of 20 is appropriate? The only weapon with
> comparable power is a missile. 20 is pretty darn hefty. And what kind of
> ranges do you have for it? Obviously max range is going to be 40m (power is
> zero by that time due to spread).

The original round was designed for targets not wearing body armor of any
type. Also remember that these were tested and used in Nam first and
that the complaints associated to the shotgun were also directed here. IE
the shot would just plain bounce off of anything not softer than flesh. A
little overstated but they work great when used against unarmored targets.
Im not saying they wont damage a target just that the penetration sucks
at better than 25 meters!
Edge
Message no. 75
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:46:03 -0700
On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, David L. Hoff wrote:

> Even more about the Anti-personnel grenade:
> A normal grenade is launched towards its target by the explosive force of
propellant, which simply has to move the grenade from point A to point B.

Not so if were talking currant tech. Granted RING AIRFOILS use propellant
but grenades from the 37mm to 40mm rage use high low pressure to propell
them down rage. They are slightly rifled barrles but the ronds do not
have a chemical propelant in them. THAT would be a horrendus recoil penalty.

Firing an AP grenade is similar to setting off a normal grenade _inside the
barrel_, and channeling all the shrapnel down the tube and at your enemy.

What!?! a sliver grenade !??????

This would generate a significantly higher recoil, in my opinion.
Too true but doesnt exhist unless you say it does. Remember my earlier
post its actualy just big shot in a cup coming down range.

> As for 20S(f) being a bit high, this is significantly less than what the
> damage code should probably be. In real life, these rounds have a kill zone
> (if I recall correctly) of about 20 meters, and will do damage out to about
> 60 meters. And yes, I know this puts its damage code up there with missiles,
> but a missile's damage code remains constant, even at long range, while
> the damage code for this weapon deteriorates as you get farther away from
> the firer.

I think I'd double the armor value of the target to get the proper effects
if you use the aformentioned damage code. Or not. Hecl I love these babies
but I think you are just blowing their effects all to hell!
>
> Which brings up the topic of ranges. I use the shotgun range table.

No complaints but double the spread.

For those of you paying attention to my posts we aimed for the feet at 25
meters and made an average of 5-8 hits from 21 pellets!

> Anything else? By the way, I have noted that Damion and I have been bantering
> back and forth on this without any input from anyone else. Do any other people
> on this list have comments or suggestions?

Sorry Im slow but been busy!:)
Prolly didnt want me to jump in on this!:)
Edge
Message no. 76
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: questions
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:45:36 -0500
>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU> writes:

Paul> Take two tripple ought buck shot balls(coated with dikote or full of
Paul> mercury or even covered with a contact poison-not DMSO'd since the
Paul> poison would be absorbed into the ball itself)

Ummm... NOT! DMSO is a solvent/wetting agent. It also gets absorbed by and
through porus substances (like skin) very easilly. As stell isn't all that
porus (last time I checked) it won't be absorbed. But then coating
something that small with aqueous solution DMSO & whatever isn't all that
effective to begin with.

But the monowire bolo trick is still neat :).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 77
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:36:11 -0600
> Look on p. 97 of Warhammer 40k (2nd Ed.), for the Bio-wire stuff.

Which one?? The Rogue Trader? Harlequin handbooks?? Space Orks?? WHICH
WHICH???

HEHEHEH. =)

Just bein' annoying. =)

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- CSCI Major and General Slave * were the words 'DON'T PANIC'." -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Hitch Hiker's Guide -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 78
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: questions
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 19:05:53 -0500
Hmmm.... looks like this got rejected the first time.

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU> writes:

Paul> Take two tripple ought buck shot balls(coated with dikote or full of
Paul> mercury or even covered with a contact poison-not DMSO'd since the
Paul> poison would be absorbed into the ball itself)

Ummm... NOT! DMSO is a solvent/wetting agent. It also gets absorbed by and
through porus substances (like skin) very easilly. As stell isn't all that
porus (last time I checked) it won't be absorbed. But then coating
something that small with aqueous solution DMSO & whatever isn't all that
effective to begin with.

But the monowire bolo trick is still neat :).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 79
From: Chris McKinnon <cmckinno@********.CA>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 23:42:52 -0400
On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Wesley W. Walker wrote:

> Which one?? The Rogue Trader? Harlequin handbooks?? Space Orks?? WHICH
> WHICH???
>
Sorry. Rogue Trader. OK!!!!!! :)


==============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the one with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmckinno@********.ca =
Message no. 80
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:32:46 -0600
> > If anybody has ever read Warhammer 40k, they also have grenades, bombs
> > and mines that contain "Bio Wire", which is an organic form of
monowire.
> > It is kind of like a hawthorn gone bad.
> >
>
> Where is that? I don't remember seeing it.

I don't know if anyone has responded yet...buuut... it on pg 97
of the Rogue Trader. :)

Have a nice day.

\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
- Wes W. Walker (wwalker@****.uark.edu) * "...in large, friendly letters -
- CSCI Major and General Slave * were the words 'DON'T PANIC'." -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Hitch Hiker's Guide -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 81
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 23:16:00 CDT
Sorry this is a bit late in coming, but you know how it is with Real Life...

Paul Finch wrote:

[stuff about how the 40mm grenade launcher is innefective at the ranges I
mentioned, and some other details about the 40mm GL in Vietnam.]

Remember, the Antipersonnel round you are talking about is the one from the
1960's and 70's. The one I am going to be using in my game is from the year
2040 or 2050. Some improvements will have been made. The "powder" or whatever
in the round will be different, and the pellets that the round fires may be
different. (In fact, I think Paul mentioned sliver rounds. Those could be
good, as you can pack a _lot_ of needle-sized flechettes in a 40mm round.)

At any rate, I feel the stats I am using for the 40mm Anti-personnel GL round
are appropriate based on the advancement in tech that will have occured by
the year 2050. (and besides which, I _like_ these things! *evil grin*)

--Phoenix
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu

CORRECTION: I just realised that the first couple lines of my post are in
error. Paul wrote about how the 40mm Anti-personnel round was innefective,
not the 40mm grenade launcher. Sorry for the mis-quote.
Message no. 82
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 09:39:33 -0500
>>>>> "David" == David L Hoff <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
writes:

David> Remember, the Antipersonnel round you are talking about is the one
David> from the 1960's and 70's. The one I am going to be using in my game
David> is from the year 2040 or 2050. Some improvements will have been
David> made.

A point: no, they haven't. FASA deliberately stagnated weapons technology.
Your standard CAS assault weapon of 2054 is nearly identical to the M-16,
other than replacing some parts with high(er) temperature thermoresins. The
ammunition is effectively identical. And the M-16 is 1960's/70's tech.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 83
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 09:44:00 CDT
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> writes:

[stuff about how FASA has stagnated weapons technology, and that weapons in
SR are nearly identical to current weapons.]

I will agree that for the most part, the weapons in SR are the same as ones
you could find today. However, there are exceptions to this rule. Some
examples of this are:

The Ares HVAR and HV MP-LMG are pictured as having 2 or three rotating
barrels. I believe this is rather exotic for weapons of that size.

The Ballista Multi-role Missile launcher is a backpack sized missile launcher
system. I dont think you will find these around anywhere.

Then there is the Ares MP Laser III.

And as far as ammo tech goes, caseless rounds are far more common, in fact
I believe any SR weapon can be adjusted to fire them.

Also, there are APDS rounds for pistols, assault rifles, etc. Smallest we
have now are for tanks.


So, while I will admit that most of the weapons in SR are "old tech", I do
think the exceptions are significant enough to allow me some freedom when it
comes to these GL rounds.

--David L. Hoff
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 84
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 10:57:46 -0500
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, David L. Hoff wrote:

> [stuff about how FASA has stagnated weapons technology, and that weapons in
> SR are nearly identical to current weapons.]
>
> I will agree that for the most part, the weapons in SR are the same as ones
> you could find today. However, there are exceptions to this rule. Some
> examples of this are:
>
> [example of HVAR, Ballista, MP laser III, personal ADPS rounds, etc.]

However, FASA is beginning to get in the high-tech swing of
things. Recently they came out with a revolutionary new advance in
weapons technology, namely the Ruger Thunderbolt from the LoneStar
Sourcebook. In order to achieve a cyclic rate of *HUGE* (like 15,000
rpm) there would have to be a *radical* new breakthrough. Gotta love
that technology curve. It's beginning to catch up and surpass modern day
stuff, and FASA is beginning to run with it.

Marc
Message no. 85
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 14:40:25 -0700
On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:

> Paul> Take two tripple ought buck shot balls(coated with dikote or full of
> Paul> mercury or even covered with a contact poison-not DMSO'd since the
> Paul> poison would be absorbed into the ball itself)
>
> Ummm... NOT! DMSO is a solvent/wetting agent. It also gets absorbed by and
> through porus substances (like skin) very easilly. As stell isn't all that
> porus (last time I checked) it won't be absorbed. But then coating
> something that small with aqueous solution DMSO & whatever isn't all that
> effective to begin with.
>
I think you may need to check your chemistry Richard. DMSO splits the
molecular bonding and thus it effects most everything. And the buck shot
is usualy made of brass and or lead, and some steel. All these would be
effected by the dmso to some extent. Im pretty sure that the substance
piggy backed with the dmso would "soak" into all of the various metals to
some degree thus enabeling the poison etc to be transfered via the shot.

Edge
Message no. 86
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 14:50:17 -0700
On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, David L. Hoff wrote:

I wrote
>
> [stuff about how the 40mm grenade launcher is innefective at the ranges I
> mentioned, and some other details about the 40mm GL in Vietnam.]

He wrote
>
> Remember, the Antipersonnel round you are talking about is the one from the
> 1960's and 70's. The one I am going to be using in my game is from the year
> 2040 or 2050. Some improvements will have been made. The "powder" or
whatever
> in the round will be different, and the pellets that the round fires may be
> different. (In fact, I think Paul mentioned sliver rounds. Those could be
> good, as you can pack a _lot_ of needle-sized flechettes in a 40mm round.)

Actually the 40mm series grenades are starting to get phased out of
currant tech and RIG Airfoil rounds are being developed. Take a coke can
and cut the ends off of it. Wrap lots of prefragmented wire strands on
the inside. The pack the rest of the corss section with propellant. What
you get is sortah like this:

This should be round
_________________________ _______________
| ____________________ | Wire | _________ |
| _____________________ | propel. | _________ |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | open | |
| |___________________| | | |_______| |
| ____________________ | propel. | _________ |
|_______________________| wire |_____________|

You get the idea. Any way since its a type of ramjet round it flies flat
to the target (none of this 45 degree angle stuff) and when it hits the
target it blows up real good. The above idea is for the APERS round. The
HEDP and HEAT and other specialty rounds are similar but have a donut like
ogive holding the arming mechanism and penetrator tips.

> At any rate, I feel the stats I am using for the 40mm Anti-personnel GL round
> are appropriate based on the advancement in tech that will have occured by
> the year 2050. (and besides which, I _like_ these things! *evil grin*)

I was just sugesting some ideas for the basis of the discussion. I
personaly think that the grenade launcher of the 2050 era is like the MGL
series with small subcaliber ammunition with all sorts of improvements.
The big thing to remember is that the tech they seem to be basing there
stuff on is mostly coming out of the Janes Guides and thus they are
folloing logical development changes.

Edge
Message no. 87
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:02:21 -0700
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "David" == David L Hoff <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
writes:
>
> David> Remember, the Antipersonnel round you are talking about is the one
> David> from the 1960's and 70's. The one I am going to be using in my game
> David> is from the year 2040 or 2050. Some improvements will have been
> David> made.
>
> A point: no, they haven't. FASA deliberately stagnated weapons technology.
> Your standard CAS assault weapon of 2054 is nearly identical to the M-16,
> other than replacing some parts with high(er) temperature thermoresins. The
> ammunition is effectively identical. And the M-16 is 1960's/70's tech.

Yeah!!!! A rat after my own thoughts. The ting to remember is that for the
most part they have not developed most of the usual weapons systems very
much. But the HVAR and the Balista, and several others are pretty good
attempts to bring it up to speed with the projected future. An
interesting note, caseless vs cased ammo is a neat point to consider.
Corps have the money to invest and equip there troops with the latest
stuff. But look at Vietnam, we gave the Viets M-1 carbines and grease
guns for several reasons. There size and build and we had loads of them
after the Korean War. What Im saying here is that if the corps were going
to make money they would keep the low tech in high volume for export and
the high tech (as the market warranted) for the corps security forces. The
common shadowrunner is sort of out of the loop for most of the higher tech
unless he loots a corp body or manages to have the connections and cash to
get the fun stuff. So the developmental aspects of weapons designs are
pretty well established. If you are in doubt look at the Mujahadien(sp) in
Afghanastan(sp) -forgot my dictionary- They fought top line Sov troops
with bolt action weapons and a "Few" stingers.

Its not the weapon system(as all firearms are now being called by the
weapons comunity) but the person and there training/skill at employing it
that matters.

Edge
Message no. 88
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 17:12:20 -0500
> On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:

> >[stuff about DMSO not working on steel or lead (as in bullets)]

On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Paul Finch replied:

> I think you may need to check your chemistry Richard. DMSO splits the
> molecular bonding and thus it effects most everything. And the buck shot
> is usualy made of brass and or lead, and some steel. All these would be
> effected by the dmso to some extent. Im pretty sure that the substance
> piggy backed with the dmso would "soak" into all of the various metals to
> some degree thus enabeling the poison etc to be transfered via the shot.

Nope. Rat's right. DMSO weakens molecular bonds of *organic*
compounds. It would do jack all to steel. It's only soluble in a few
organic compounds, namely water, of which the human body is mostly
comprised (convenient, neh?). It's incredibly quick in its absorption
into the body. A drop on your pants and you can taste garlic in your
mouth almost instantly. It's used to administer drugs to horses, and let
me tell ya, its nasty, foul stuff. Oh, yeah, it works for acid (LSD)
too. Talk about fun with door handles...

Marc
Message no. 89
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:09:35 -0700
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, David L. Hoff wrote:

> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> writes:
>
> [stuff about how FASA has stagnated weapons technology, and that weapons in
> SR are nearly identical to current weapons.]
>
> I will agree that for the most part, the weapons in SR are the same as ones
> you could find today. However, there are exceptions to this rule. Some
> examples of this are:

You reading my mind Rat! I think I like you !!!!

> The Ares HVAR and HV MP-LMG are pictured as having 2 or three rotating
> barrels. I believe this is rather exotic for weapons of that size.

The US gov had a SPIW weapons system program back in the 60-70's
that dealt with salvo technology. The problem was that the tech to move
the barels and compensation for recoil was never really solved. They were
busy invetigating the M-16 and its problems so the program was cancelled.
But in essance they tried multi-chambered/multi-barreled/multi-feed
systems that worked ok but Colt managed to get the only assult rifle burst
mechanism that was accepted by the gov. The Spanish had a neat 5 round
mechinism a few years back also but nobody wanted it. So in general this
multi barrel idea is not new. What blew me away was the fact that they
chambered it for small calliber ammo. Very cool, unless you meat someone
in armor strong enough to beat it. They would hurt yes, but they woulndt
be dead.

> The Ballista Multi-role Missile launcher is a backpack sized missile launcher
> system. I dont think you will find these around anywhere.

This was a cool idea too!! they basicaly took the fly by wire teck
of aircraft weapon systems and put it in the hands of the grunt. Kind of
like taking an ERYX missle, making it magizine fed and adding on one
hell of a fire control system. They could do it now by taking the
Javaline and scaling it down by 50%. Not sure how the gov would feel
about it though.


> > Then there is the Ares MP LaserIII.

I dont like the lasres in the game and usualy dont use them but I think
that the way they portray them is a little off base. Even with all of the
tech they have mentioned, I dont think it would be employable as a very
tacticaly sound weapon. True spl opps would love the damb thing,
especialy if you tune the laser so that any laser tracing system(for
another weapons platform) could home in on it, then it would be great!

> And as far as ammo tech goes, caseless rounds are far more common, in fact
> I believe any SR weapon can be adjusted to fire them.

Caseless is the most wonderfull thing as long as you have the support tech
to keep making it. If you have any questions about this concept, play
Twilight 2000 and use only an HK G-11. Very soon youll see what I mean.

> Also, there are APDS rounds for pistols, assault rifles, etc. Smallest we
> have now are for tanks.

Not intirely true. The only effective ( especialy cost effective) use of
apds ammo is for Tanks. They have apds ammo for naval guns, and other big
bore types. The reason you dont see it in small arms is for several reasons:
Cost, weapon design, who needs and can get it, and the fact that nobody
wants plastic shards screwing up the rifiling of the barrels.

Another point. You dont need apds to achieve the same effect. Try
monolithic solids, teflon coating, dense metals(similar to mono solids)
and for that matter Full Metal Jackets do a nice job against armor.

Remember you should not be going out to bag a Main Battle Tnk with a
handgun or a rifle. Personal armor(with the exception of the HARD armors
and suits in FOF) can and will be defeated by good use of tactics and the
proper weapon and ammunition employmant.

I feel the urge to write a summary of these ideas Im running on, anyone
want to hear more on this stuff?
>
> So, while I will admit that most of the weapons in SR are "old tech", I do
> think the exceptions are significant enough to allow me some freedom when it
> comes to these GL rounds.

I Will be submiting stuff for the next Shadowlore.

Edge
Message no. 90
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:26:01 -0700
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> > [stuff about how FASA has stagnated weapons technology, and that weapons in
> > SR are nearly identical to current weapons.]
> > [example of HVAR, Ballista, MP laser III, personal ADPS rounds, etc.]
>
> However, FASA is beginning to get in the high-tech swing of
> things. Recently they came out with a revolutionary new advance in
> weapons technology, namely the Ruger Thunderbolt from the LoneStar
> Sourcebook. In order to achieve a cyclic rate of *HUGE* (like 15,000
> rpm) there would have to be a *radical* new breakthrough. Gotta love
> that technology curve. It's beginning to catch up and surpass modern day
> stuff, and FASA is beginning to run with it.
>
Dont have the SB, what kind of weapons system is it. Personal or fixed
mount stuff. And BTW 15k rpm fire rate is not new. Sounds like they are
catchimg up quickly but Im still waiting for more NEW tech stuff. Guess
Ill have to make some.

Edge
Message no. 91
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:30:11 -0700
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> > On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:
>
> > >[stuff about DMSO not working on steel or lead (as in bullets)]
>
> On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Paul Finch replied:
>
> > I think you may need to check your chemistry Richard. DMSO splits the
> > molecular bonding and thus it effects most everything. And the buck shot
> > is usualy made of brass and or lead, and some steel. All these would be
> > effected by the dmso to some extent. Im pretty sure that the substance
> > piggy backed with the dmso would "soak" into all of the various metals
to
> > some degree thus enabeling the poison etc to be transfered via the shot.
>
> Nope. Rat's right. DMSO weakens molecular bonds of *organic*
> compounds. It would do jack all to steel. It's only soluble in a few
> organic compounds, namely water, of which the human body is mostly
> comprised (convenient, neh?). It's incredibly quick in its absorption
> into the body. A drop on your pants and you can taste garlic in your
> mouth almost instantly. It's used to administer drugs to horses, and let
> me tell ya, its nasty, foul stuff. Oh, yeah, it works for acid (LSD)
> too. Talk about fun with door handles...

That was quick, I got confused when I made my first idea not so clear. I
think that if the dmso was on the shot wouldnt it stay on the surface
thus( heres the point) transfer the poison?

Man do I need to get back to sleep!:)
Edge
Message no. 92
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 16:12:47 -0700
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> Nope. Rat's right. DMSO weakens molecular bonds of *organic*
> compounds. It would do jack all to steel. It's only soluble in a few
> organic compounds, namely water, of which the human body is mostly
> comprised (convenient, neh?). It's incredibly quick in its absorption
> into the body. A drop on your pants and you can taste garlic in your
> mouth almost instantly. It's used to administer drugs to horses, and let
> me tell ya, its nasty, foul stuff. Oh, yeah, it works for acid (LSD)
> too. Talk about fun with door handles...

DMSO is a solvent. Trust me. I use it a lot. And it is soluble in
water. It's higly polar, that's why. It's a nice solvent. However, you
need to find a toxin that is soluble in DMSO. Some things are, and some
things aren't. Like dissolves like. Anything with an ionic nature
(organic molecules) is readily soluble in solvent like DMSO and water.

But for any solvent to dissolve into skin, it must be in contact with
it. Unless you have "holy" pants, pardon the pun, the DMSO would
probably just sit on the pants. If it soaks through, there is the
likelihood that the toxin is trapped inthe pants and the concentration is
lowered so that absobtion through the skin provides minimal contact with
the toxin. Best applications for DMSO is directly to skin, not to
clothing/armor.

DMSO is also a toxin in itself. It has some pretty bad effects ont he
body, but I can't remember the actual safety concerns about the stuff.

>
> Marc
>
Mike
Message no. 93
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 16:17:16 -0700
> That was quick, I got confused when I made my first idea not so clear. I
> think that if the dmso was on the shot wouldnt it stay on the surface
> thus( heres the point) transfer the poison?
>
> Man do I need to get back to sleep!:)
> Edge
>
Nope. It would probably blow right off. There has to be a considerable
amount of toxin in the shot to actually "soak in". The larger the
amounts of solute (the toxin), the more solvent (DMSO) you need. Coating
the outside of a bullet won't work. simply because it's not concentrated
enough.

Mike
Message no. 94
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 18:31:35 -0500
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

Marc> the Ruger Thunderbolt

Which we've discussed to death already. It's mechanically unfeasable. 1500
rounds per minute I'll buy; 1500 rounds per /second/ is bull-shit. And 1500
rpm will give the desired effect (the H&K G-11's cyclic is around 1100 rpm).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 95
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 18:33:39 -0500
>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU> writes:

Paul> Actually the 40mm series grenades are starting to get phased out of
Paul> currant tech and RIG Airfoil rounds are being developed.

And from what I've skimmed on sci.military, abandoned. They're just not
effective in the anti-armor role.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |Earth, presumably from outer space.
Message no. 96
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 23:28:59 -0500
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:

> Dont have the SB, what kind of weapons system is it. Personal or fixed
> mount stuff. And BTW 15k rpm fire rate is not new. Sounds like they are
> catchimg up quickly but Im still waiting for more NEW tech stuff. Guess
> Ill have to make some.

Oh, very personal. It's a heavy pistol. The first burst has no
recoil mods 'cause the rounds are out of the barrel so damn fast that
there's no time to throw your aim off. The second burst, on the other
hand...

Marc
Message no. 97
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 23:39:27 -0500
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf
<jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU> writes:
>
> Marc> the Ruger Thunderbolt
>
> Which we've discussed to death already. It's mechanically unfeasable. 1500
> rounds per minute I'll buy; 1500 rounds per /second/ is bull-shit. And 1500
> rpm will give the desired effect (the H&K G-11's cyclic is around 1100 rpm).

It's called suspension of disbelief. Are you telling me that you
can buy the re-emergence of magic, nearly flawless integration of
technology into the (meta)human body, neural simsense technology, and a
horde of other totally fictitious things and you *can't* buy a gun with a
heinous cyclic rate? Get actual.
It's called a "revolutionary" advance for a reason. Even though
weapons tech in SR is stagnated, there will be amazing breakthroughs.
Things that are not mechanically feasible now *will* be in the future.
And weapons technology progresses at an even faster rate than normal tech
(especially in a dark world like SR).
My only gripe is that FASA didn't explain how it works...but then
again, if they could, they would be making guns, not games. Go figure.
Chalk it up as an amazing advance and quit griping.

Marc
Message no. 98
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:09:24 -0500
>
> On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:
>
> > Anyone got a copy of Maximum Metal for CP? There is a mine in there (I
> > think) which strings a large area(like a corridoor or hallway) top to
> > bottom with razor wire. Any ideas on the subject?
> >
> > Matt H.
>
> If anybody has ever read Warhammer 40k, they also have grenades, bombs
> and mines that contain "Bio Wire", which is an organic form of monowire.
> It is kind of like a hawthorn gone bad.
>

Where is that? I don't remember seeing it.

Matt H.
Message no. 99
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:13:32 -0400
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, The GREAT Cornholio wrote:
>
> But for any solvent to dissolve into skin, it must be in contact with
> it. Unless you have "holy" pants, pardon the pun, the DMSO would
> probably just sit on the pants. If it soaks through, there is the
> likelihood that the toxin is trapped inthe pants and the concentration is
> lowered so that absobtion through the skin provides minimal contact with
> the toxin. Best applications for DMSO is directly to skin, not to
> clothing/armor.
>
> DMSO is also a toxin in itself. It has some pretty bad effects ont he
> body, but I can't remember the actual safety concerns about the stuff.
>
> >
> > Marc
> >
> Mike
>
There was just an article off of the AP about two weeks ago about this
woman out in California. Last year she was brought into an emergency room
in LA for a heart attack, I think. They cut open her chest and this pllom
of toxic fumes was let out, making just about the entire trauma team
sick. They did tests later on to figure out just what happened. Turns out
that her body chemistry interacted with some medication she was taking,
and the result was DMSO. So she had this chemical in her and when it hit
the air it went gaseous and spread out like poison gas. This stuff is
pretty nasty! (The date it was in our paper was NOV 6).
Message no. 100
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:34:16 -0500
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

Marc> It's called suspension of disbelief.

Suspension of disbelief requires verisimilitude. Lacking that, it is
impossible to suspend disbelief.

Marc> Are you telling me that you can buy the re-emergence of magic, nearly
Marc> flawless integration of technology into the (meta)human body, neural
Marc> simsense technology, and a horde of other totally fictitious things
Marc> and you *can't* buy a gun with a heinous cyclic rate? Get actual.

Exactly. Why? Because it is so heinous. Everything else, the magic, the
cyber, etc., all has some small touch of reality, fitting together in a
believable way. That is verisimilitude. Even the tech that makes the MP
laser possible is at least theoretically possible today. This weapon is
just totally ludicrous given the tech level of everything else.

Marc> It's called a "revolutionary" advance for a reason. Even
Marc> though weapons tech in SR is stagnated, there will be amazing
Marc> breakthroughs. Things that are not mechanically feasible now *will*
Marc> be in the future. And weapons technology progresses at an even faster
Marc> rate than normal tech (especially in a dark world like SR).

In order to have a 1500 rounds/second cyclic, you have to feed ammunition
that quickly. That means the third round has to move at a speed of over 80
miles per hour to go from clip to firing chamber (a conservative estimate
based on a 9mm round, placing the weapon in the same category as the
Beretta 93R). Newtonian Physics states that it's either a) impossible to do
this with a spring-loaded magazine, or b) the weapon would rip itself out
of your hand when you fired it. You could compensate for that, but then
you'd have a weapon signficantly larger than a medium handgun; again,
according to Newtonian Physics.

Marc> My only gripe is that FASA didn't explain how it works...but
Marc> then again, if they could, they would be making guns, not games. Go
Marc> figure. Chalk it up as an amazing advance and quit griping.

I chalk it up as FASA not knowing the first things about firearms or
weapons technology. Which they admit is true.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|returned to its special container and kept
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |under refrigeration.
Message no. 101
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:05:42 -0800
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> weapons technology, namely the Ruger Thunderbolt from the LoneStar
> Sourcebook. In order to achieve a cyclic rate of *HUGE* (like 15,000
> rpm) there would have to be a *radical* new breakthrough. Gotta love
> that technology curve. It's beginning to catch up and surpass modern day
> stuff, and FASA is beginning to run with it.

Agreed. The Thunderbolt actually fires 1500 rounds per *second*,
or 90,000 rpm and I published a means for making it actually work awhile
back for all the doubting Thomases that said "no way".

> Marc

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 102
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:17:35 -0800
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:

> You get the idea. Any way since its a type of ramjet round it flies flat
> to the target (none of this 45 degree angle stuff) and when it hits the

The RAG is a "Ring Airfoil Grenade", not a ramjet.
A ramjet is a device that uses supersonic inlet compression to
compactify the fuel prepatory to ignition. Because it operates in the
supersonic regime, a plume of dispersing fuel is actually a supersonic
compression (as opposed to a subsonic compression requiring decreasing
cross sectional area) and so provides a high efficiency combustion, and
hence exhaust velocity.
Ramjets require hypersonic speeds before they become efficient,
which a grenade most certainly does not get.
Your RAG flies flat because the airfoil provides lift for the
round, thus changing it's ballistics.

> Edge

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 103
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:10:41 -0800
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:

> I think you may need to check your chemistry Richard. DMSO splits the
> molecular bonding and thus it effects most everything. And the buck shot
> is usualy made of brass and or lead, and some steel. All these would be
> effected by the dmso to some extent. Im pretty sure that the substance
> piggy backed with the dmso would "soak" into all of the various metals to
> some degree thus enabeling the poison etc to be transfered via the shot.

Actually, I think you should be the one checking chemistry.
DMSO opens cellular gates, more specifically the cell membrane
that prevents diffusion. Applied to the skin, it opens the skin cell
membrane to allow the chemical to "seep" in.
"Dissolving" molecular bonds as you put it would be the
equivalent of a sintering process in the very least, and while sintering
and powder metallurgy require much less heat you still need about 1000 K
to make it work.
And you can't convince me that, from a Thermodynamical viewpoint,
DMSO supplies the system with enough energy to dissolve molecular
bonding.

> Edge

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 104
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:32:11 -0700
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Paul> Actually the 40mm series grenades are starting to get phased out of
> Paul> currant tech and RIG Airfoil rounds are being developed.
>
> And from what I've skimmed on sci.military, abandoned. They're just not
> effective in the anti-armor role.

For light Armor and soft skinned vehicles they should do as well as the
HEDP rounds. The point of the RAG rounds is that they are flat trajectory
and dont need to have a nasty sight system like the M-203 does.

Edge
Message no. 105
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:36:41 -0700
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:
>
> > Dont have the SB, what kind of weapons system is it. Personal or fixed
> > mount stuff. And BTW 15k rpm fire rate is not new. Sounds like they are
> > catchimg up quickly but Im still waiting for more NEW tech stuff. Guess
> > Ill have to make some.
>
> Oh, very personal. It's a heavy pistol. The first burst has no
> recoil mods 'cause the rounds are out of the barrel so damn fast that
> there's no time to throw your aim off. The second burst, on the other
> hand...
>
MOMMY!!!!! I WANT ONE!!!!!!
Edge
Message no. 106
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:26:35 -0700
On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, The GREAT Cornholio wrote:

Lots o stuff about dmso

> Nope. It would probably blow right off. There has to be a considerable
> amount of toxin in the shot to actually "soak in". The larger the
> amounts of solute (the toxin), the more solvent (DMSO) you need. Coating
> the outside of a bullet won't work. simply because it's not concentrated
> enough.
>
> Mike

What if the core of the shot is hollow and filled with the poison/dmso stuff?
Edge
Message no. 107
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:39:06 -0700
On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Alex van der Kleut wrote:
> >
> There was just an article off of the AP about two weeks ago about this
> woman out in California. Last year she was brought into an emergency room
> in LA for a heart attack, I think. They cut open her chest and this pllom
> of toxic fumes was let out, making just about the entire trauma team
> sick. They did tests later on to figure out just what happened. Turns out
> that her body chemistry interacted with some medication she was taking,
> and the result was DMSO. So she had this chemical in her and when it hit
> the air it went gaseous and spread out like poison gas. This stuff is
> pretty nasty! (The date it was in our paper was NOV 6).

Man I would hate to be the paramed who pulled here into the er. Can you
imaggine her CHART?

Holly Drek!
Edge
Message no. 108
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:43:57 -0700
On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:
>
> > You get the idea. Any way since its a type of ramjet round it flies flat
> > to the target (none of this 45 degree angle stuff) and when it hits the

Notice I siad IDEA. And I should have said _similar to a ramjet in its
way of trajectory. I confused my tragectorys with my balistics!

> The RAG is a "Ring Airfoil Grenade", not a ramjet.
> A ramjet is a device that uses supersonic inlet compression to
> compactify the fuel prepatory to ignition. Because it operates in the
> supersonic regime, a plume of dispersing fuel is actually a supersonic
> compression (as opposed to a subsonic compression requiring decreasing
> cross sectional area) and so provides a high efficiency combustion, and
> hence exhaust velocity.
> Ramjets require hypersonic speeds before they become efficient,
> which a grenade most certainly does not get.
> Your RAG flies flat because the airfoil provides lift for the
> round, thus changing it's ballistics.

So what kind of system would you say it is? Besides i got that almost
verbatum from Janes.

Edge
Message no. 109
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:46:07 -0700
On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Actually, I think you should be the one checking chemistry.
I did and I also apologised in an earlier post sorry to tick you off!:)
Edge
Message no. 110
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 23:51:42 -0700
On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:

>
> What if the core of the shot is hollow and filled with the poison/dmso stuff?
> Edge
>
If it shatters on impact and coats the skin with the stuff, then you've
got yourself a weapon. Just 1) make sure that the dosage is enough to
cause effects in the body and 2) the paintball is not soluble in DMSO.
Nothing is more embarrassing than having the solvent material dissolve
your plastic container. One time, a moron had his glassware sealed by
KRAZY GLUE (I just love saying krazy) and he filled the graduated
cylinder with ethyl acetate. Oops. Suddenly, the polymer in the glass
went into solution and the cylinder broke again, falling into his
reaction flask. I could only laugh. It was pretty sad, but it was an
advanced lab and some people just do the silliest things. :-)

Mike
Message no. 111
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 09:00:37 -0800
On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:

> So what kind of system would you say it is? Besides i got that almost
> verbatum from Janes.

Not to be condescending ;-), but it's a ring airfoil.
I hope Janes doesn't confuse the two. ;-) You'd need a sustainer
motor at least, to make a workable ramjet, with a lot more kick than what
is found on a rocket propelled grenade. Recoil wouldn't be too nice.
A ramjet system would probably be practical on a Main Battle Tank
system, due to the high velocity required. Maybe a carefully designed
electrothermal assault rifle. Even so, ring airfoils are no good for
HEAP or APDS due to geometry, so they wouldn't have much of an antiarmor
role unless you could put a self-forging projectile warhead on.

> Edge

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 112
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 14:06:39 -0500
On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:
[on the subject of ramjets and airfoil grenades...]

> So what kind of system would you say it is? Besides i got that almost
> verbatum from Janes.

That was your first mistake...

Marc
Message no. 113
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 22:12:25 -0500
On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Daniel C. Vandersall wrote:

> Other ideas....

[Monowire ideas chopped]

What about a monowire netgun?
(That would hurt)

Or a monowire bikini (Maybe not)
Message no. 114
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:02:19 -0700
On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Paul Finch wrote:
> [on the subject of ramjets and airfoil grenades...]
>
> > So what kind of system would you say it is? Besides i got that almost
> > verbatum from Janes.
>
> That was your first mistake...
I was pretty sure that they are a decent spurce of info. Esspecialy as far
as military weapons go. And as far as mistakes at least what they write
iss true as of writeing it, not like some sources I have seen qouted over
the past few months, but anyway.:{)

Edge
Message no. 115
From: Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 12:04:13 +0000
Hoi chummers and all that shadow speak stuff

I have a few questions which I wondered if anyone could answer for me

What is the armour for a generic greater dragon? The armour for lesser drags is
8 and it says greater drags get +10/12 body/armour does this mean that drags
have 12 extra armour points? Giving them an awesome 20!!!!
20 By the way bounces pathers and most weapons except amour pieceing missiles
and pehaps a rather large ripple of rockets or n ares MP vehicle laser.
It also means that greater drags cant hurt each other with there claws as they
only have a power of 16!! Sounds dumb!


Can sorcery adepts quicken spells? Acording to the books its says that to
quicken a spell you must view it from astral space does this mean that
sorcery adepts can't quicken spells, or could they get a magician with astral
perception to watch it for him


Can you hide quickened spells, you can mask foci but can you mask quickened
spells. Its easy to spot a mage who is masked just look for his quickened
spells.

Another think about spells, with inc. reflexes can these spells be cast on
physical adepts with the power or inhanced reflexes? Can these spells be cast
on sritters with more than one initiative die
eg Big magi type worm has initiative of 2d6+9 (Greater western dragon) if he
quickens inc reflexes +3D and inc. reactions +3 that gives him 5D6+12
initiative!


A few about riggers now

What do drones use for there weapon skills when firing mounted weaponry when on
autopilot, i.e. not controled by the rigger?
Also if a car has two ingram valients on the front can they be both fire by one
person i.e. the controling rigger. Would this use fire arms?
Can they be smart linked?



Does any one know of a rules erreta for fields of fire on the smart link II
If says called shots are made easier and have only +4 , butr they have +4 under
normal curcumstances.


Thanks for your help

I am sure more questions will come to mind soon

Tacoma Joe
Message no. 116
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 10:08:10 -0500
>>>>> "Stuart" == Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK> writes:

Stuart> What is the armour for a generic greater dragon?

There's no such thing as a ``generic'' greater dragon (great western
dragon?). :)

The other answer is ``lots.''

Stuart> The armour for lesser drags is 8 and it says greater drags get
Stuart> +10/12 body/armour does this mean that drags have 12 extra armour
Stuart> points? Giving them an awesome 20!!!!

Yeah, that sounds about right. They're supposed to be tough. You don't
fight the big dragons with firepower unless you want to die.


Stuart> Can sorcery adepts quicken spells? Acording to the books its says
Stuart> that to quicken a spell you must view it from astral space does
Stuart> this mean that sorcery adepts can't quicken spells, or could they
Stuart> get a magician with astral perception to watch it for him

Here's that problem with assensing. The answer is still yes, even though it
contradicts the mechanics of spellcasting. ``You cannot cast a spell unless
you can assense the target, but sorcery adepts have no astral perception,
therefore cannot assense the target, therefore cannot cast spells.'' What's
wrong with this picture? :)


Stuart> Can you hide quickened spells, you can mask foci but can you mask
Stuart> quickened spells. Its easy to spot a mage who is masked just look
Stuart> for his quickened spells.

Nope; you cannot mask a quickening, only foci (of which spell locks count).

Stuart> Another think about spells, with inc. reflexes can these spells be
Stuart> cast on physical adepts with the power or inhanced reflexes?

Re-read the description of the spells. The answer is yes, but it's much
more difficult.


Stuart> What do drones use for there weapon skills when firing mounted
Stuart> weaponry when on autopilot, i.e. not controled by the rigger?

The Rigger's Heavy Weapons skill.

Stuart> Also if a car has two ingram valients on the front can they be both
Stuart> fire by one person i.e. the controling rigger. Would this use fire
Stuart> arms? Can they be smart linked?

Yes and no.

Stuart> Does any one know of a rules erreta for fields of fire on the smart
Stuart> link II If says called shots are made easier and have only +4 ,
Stuart> butr they have +4 under normal curcumstances.

It's +2.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 117
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:52:04 +0100
> What is the armour for a generic greater dragon? The armour for lesser drags is
> 8 and it says greater drags get +10/12 body/armour does this mean that drags
> have 12 extra armour points? Giving them an awesome 20!!!!
> 20 By the way bounces pathers and most weapons except amour pieceing missiles
> and pehaps a rather large ripple of rockets or n ares MP vehicle laser.
> It also means that greater drags cant hurt each other with there claws as they
> only have a power of 16!! Sounds dumb!

Sounds dumb, until you realise that a guy with an HMG can _very_
effectively kill a "normal" dragon... with armor of 8, all it takes is
one good burst (using all the recoil compensation you can get), and that
dragon gets to roll his Body of 15 against a Target Number 12...guess the
number of successes :)

Anyway, it say "/12" and not "/+12" so I guess it is 12 and not 20

> Can sorcery adepts quicken spells? Acording to the books its says that to
> quicken a spell you must view it from astral space does this mean that
> sorcery adepts can't quicken spells, or could they get a magician with astral
> perception to watch it for him

Get NERPS: ShadowLore and find some interesting additions for your
sorcery adepts. Among these is a slightly-modified astral perception, I
think.

> Another think about spells, with inc. reflexes can these spells be cast on
> physical adepts with the power or inhanced reflexes? Can these spells be cast
> on sritters with more than one initiative die
> eg Big magi type worm has initiative of 2d6+9 (Greater western dragon) if he
> quickens inc reflexes +3D and inc. reactions +3 that gives him 5D6+12
> initiative!

FASA says that only the highest boost is effective: if you have boosted
reflexes 1 and a mage casts a spell that gives you +2D6 initiative, you
get +2D6 and not +3D6.

> What do drones use for there weapon skills when firing mounted weaponry when on
> autopilot, i.e. not controled by the rigger?

The autopilot rating, I think, though maybe you add the Sensor rating to
it, I'm not sure.

> Does any one know of a rules erreta for fields of fire on the smart link II
> If says called shots are made easier and have only +4 , butr they have +4 under
> normal curcumstances.

Called shots with Smartlink II are at +2, not +4.

Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE (v2.1): GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au
21st century digital boy | !a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K-
I don't know how to live | W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@
But I got a lot of toys | D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 118
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:43:07 -0400
> >>>>> "Rat" ==> Stainless Steel Rat
> >>>>> "Stuart" == Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK>

> Stuart> Can sorcery adepts quicken spells? Acording to the books its says
> Stuart> that to quicken a spell you must view it from astral space does
> Stuart> this mean that sorcery adepts can't quicken spells, or could they
> Stuart> get a magician with astral perception to watch it for him

> Rat> Here's that problem with assensing. The answer is still yes, even
> Rat> though it contradicts the mechanics of spellcasting. ``You cannot
> Rat> cast a spell unless you can assense the target, but sorcery adepts
> Rat> have no astral perception, therefore cannot assense the target,
> Rat> therefore cannot cast spells.'' What's > wrong with this picture? :)

Whoa! Where does it say you *have* to assense a target to cast a
spell at it? I know it says something about "synchronizing auras" to
transfer the spell's effects to the target, but no where can I find a
statement that you have to actually *assense* the target to affect it.
Am I missing something?

> Stuart> Can you hide quickened spells, you can mask foci but can you mask
> Stuart> quickened spells. Its easy to spot a mage who is masked just look
> Stuart> for his quickened spells.

> Rat> Nope; you cannot mask a quickening, only foci (of which spell locks
> Rat> count).

Note, however, that there are several "house rules" dealing with
this subject. For example, we allow Force Points of Quickenings to be
treated as Ratings of Foci on a one for one basis. i.e., if you could
mask a total of three points of focus, you could mask a Force three
quickening, a force one quickening and two spell locks, or a rating
two power focus and a force one quickening, but not a force two
quickening and a rating two weapon focus. Make sense? But by the book,
Rat is correct.

> Stuart> What do drones use for there weapon skills when firing mounted
> Stuart> weaponry when on autopilot, i.e. not controled by the rigger?

> Rat> The Rigger's Heavy Weapons skill.

I'm not so sure about this one. If the rigger is not actively
controlling the drone, I would not use the rigger's applicable weapon
skill. The rigger blackbook says to use the straight autopilot rating,
but remember that it is sensor-aided targeting, so you get the sensor
dice as well. That rule is on p 106 of the Rigger BlackBook, under the
section on sensor-aided targeting. That gives your typical drone
anywhere from 2 dice (crawler and snooper types) to a whopping 7 dice
(CAS Wandjina).
Also recall that for sensor-aided targeting, you use the
signature of the target, regardless of range. Additionally, the
signature of the (meta)human body is an 8, but direct LOS is a -4
modifier. That gives a typical target number of 4 at any range, light
condition, relative movement, or pretty much any other modifier except those
on p. 106 of the RBB. This can be VERY nasty.

Marc
Message no. 119
From: wadycki andrew m <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:26:50 -0600
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Gurth wrote:

> > What do drones use for there weapon skills when firing mounted
weaponry when o > n
> > autopilot, i.e. not controled by the rigger?
>
> The autopilot rating, I think, though maybe you add the Sensor rating to
> it, I'm not sure.

Autopilot plus sensors. Also the target number is the signature, no
range modifications. Also a rigger firing with vehicle weapons adds the
sensors also.

-Andrew
Message no. 120
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:55:46 -0500
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

Marc> Whoa! Where does it say you *have* to assense a target to
Marc> cast a spell at it? I know it says something about "synchronizing
Marc> auras" to transfer the spell's effects to the target, but no where
Marc> can I find a statement that you have to actually *assense* the target
Marc> to affect it. Am I missing something?

It's in the Grimthingy somewhere. ``Synchronization of auras'' requires
briefly assensing the target's aura.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 121
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:27:42 EST
SS Rat writes:

> Stuart> arms? Can they be smart linked?
>
SS Rat> Yes and no.
>
Not to contradict you Rat, but that is a GM call. The smartlink II in FoF
can be linked to vehicle weapons, if you believe what the commenters
are saying. If the rigger is using a SL I though, than no go.




Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for a friend.

-Shadowdancer- <briddle@*****.vinu.edu>
Message no. 122
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:42:09 -0700
>What is the armour for a generic greater dragon? The armour for lesser drags is
> 8 and it says greater drags get +10/12 body/armour does this mean that drags
>have 12 extra armour points? Giving them an awesome 20!!!!

its +10 body and armor of 12 - thats the way it has been for any of the
greater dragons in magazines and books

>Can sorcery adepts quicken spells? Acording to the books its says that to
>quicken a spell you must view it from astral space does this mean that
>sorcery adepts can't quicken spells, or could they get a magician with astral
>perception to watch it for him

They can not use astral perception. Therefore they can not quicken spells.
YOU need to watch the spell - you can't have someone lese watch it.

>Can you hide quickened spells, you can mask foci but can you mask quickened
> spells. Its easy to spot a mage who is masked just look for his quickened
> spells.

not trully sure, though I believe the FASA answer is no

>Another think about spells, with inc. reflexes can these spells be cast on
> physical adepts with the power or inhanced reflexes? Can these spells be cast
> on sritters with more than one initiative die
>eg Big magi type worm has initiative of 2d6+9 (Greater western dragon) if he
> quickens inc reflexes +3D and inc. reactions +3 that gives him 5D6+12
> initiative!

Phys Ads - no, they will not work in conjunction.
"Only one reflex increaser can be in effect on a subject at one time"

SR critters
YES. The init you see there is NOT magic in origin, like cats
they are just naturally faster than a normal person, therefore
you CAN have them Lock, Quicken or do Dragon Magical Things
to a spell to have it stay in effect.

>A few about riggers now
>
>What do drones use for there weapon skills when firing mounted weaponry when on
> autopilot, i.e. not controled by the rigger?

Auto Pilot.

I suggest having them do the good suppresion fire at hexes

>Also if a car has two ingram valients on the front can they be both fire by one
> person i.e. the controling rigger. Would this use fire arms?

yes - firing a gun is using firearms

>Can they be smart linked?

according to Fields of Fire - no

>Does any one know of a rules erreta for fields of fire on the smart link II
>If says called shots are made easier and have only +4 , butr they have +4 under
>normal curcumstances.

its +2

>Thanks for your help

your welcome

Nightfox

BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Geek code V2.1 GE d-? H++ s+:->++: g+ p? !au(-) a21! w++ v+* C++$(++++)
U(-) p? L !3 E? N K- W M+ V+ -po+(---) Y+ t+ 5+++! j-x R+(++) G' tv
b+(+++) D(+) B--- e+ u+*(++)(**) h(*) f+(*) r-->+++ !n- y+*>++
Message no. 123
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:44:03 EST
Marc writes:

> Whoa! Where does it say you *have* to assense a target to
cast a
> spell at it? I know it says something about "synchronizing auras"
to

Look again at that long explaination on how magic works. It is in
there somewhere amid the jargon and doubletalk.




Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for a friend.

-Shadowdancer- <briddle@*****.vinu.edu>
Message no. 124
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 21:43:28 -0700
Heres a quick one for you all. My love is asking me to ask all you all if
her cyber eyes can cry. I'm pretty sure they can but I just thought I
toss this out. Any thoughts?

Also all of you promissing to send me stuff on weapons get it into me soon
please.

JD I need to know the latest date for submission for Shadowlore II. Also
I'm not sure if you told me if you could handel eps and tiff formatted
stuff. Let me know.

Also anyone interested in the WWW sites here on the net, trust me they are
great. I just compiled 8 300meg files of stuff from them, not counting
the nerps projects.

Later Edge
Message no. 125
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 23:59:00 -0500
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Paul Finch wrote:

> Heres a quick one for you all. My love is asking me to ask all you all if
> her cyber eyes can cry. I'm pretty sure they can but I just thought I
> toss this out. Any thoughts?

Tear ducts are not physically a part of the eyeball, so I'd think
that part would be unchanged.

[stuff about NERPS responded to privately]
> Also anyone interested in the WWW sites here on the net, trust me they are
> great. I just compiled 8 300meg files of stuff from them, not counting
> the nerps projects.

Before anybody asks, they're all in part 2 of the ShadowRN FAQ.
Also, there are links to each in my own Shadowrun page, accessable
through the URL at the bottom of my .signature below.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "I came alone as me, just an idea in a long chain of discovery." |
| -Roy Harper |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 126
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:31:23 -0700
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Paul Finch wrote:

> Also all of you promissing to send me stuff on weapons get it into me soon
> please.
>
I know I told you I would try to get you a bunch of stuff, but it won't
be very soon...We are in our last week of school here, and then it's
FINALS!!!! AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!! SO if you could bear with me,
I'll try to get you the stuff sometime during my Xmas break...in between
doing my possible Prime Runners thing...

Erik, a.k.a. the Harried Whistler
Message no. 127
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:45:02 -0700
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Erik S Jameson wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Paul Finch wrote:
>
> > Also all of you promissing to send me stuff on weapons get it into me soon
> > please.
> >
> I know I told you I would try to get you a bunch of stuff, but it won't
> be very soon...We are in our last week of school here, and then it's
> FINALS!!!! AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!

500 cc's valium im stat!!!!!!!!!

SO if you could bear with me, I'll try to get you the stuff sometime during my Xmas
break...in between
> doing my possible Prime Runners thing...


Null persp.

> Erik, a.k.a. the Harried Whistler
Message no. 128
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 13:44:05 -0700
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Paul Finch wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Erik S Jameson wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Paul Finch wrote:
> >
> > > Also all of you promissing to send me stuff on weapons get it into me soon
> > > please.
> > >
> > I know I told you I would try to get you a bunch of stuff, but it won't
> > be very soon...We are in our last week of school here, and then it's
> > FINALS!!!! AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!
>
> 500 cc's valium im stat!!!!!!!!!
>
My GOD, man! 500 cc's of VALIUM? That's enough to relax his diaphram,
heart muscles and yes, even his LIBIDO! :-)

But seriously, I had 10 mg of valium once. Just to put it in
perspective, I weighed about 220, was in good shape, and my mom had to
help me to the car I was so relaxed.

Mike
Message no. 129
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 23:42:07 -0700
On Tue, 6 Dec 1994, The GREAT Cornholio wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Paul Finch wrote:
> >
> > 500 cc's valium im stat!!!!!!!!!
> >
> My GOD, man! 500 cc's of VALIUM? That's enough to relax his diaphram,
> heart muscles and yes, even his LIBIDO! :-)

I dont frag around with finals!!!!

>
> But seriously, I had 10 mg of valium once. Just to put it in
> perspective, I weighed about 220, was in good shape, and my mom had to
> help me to the car I was so relaxed.

I suffer from migraines so bad it takes this at time so you can see why.

Edge
Message no. 130
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Questions (fwd)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 22:16:14 -0700
Ok heres some fast and dirty questions i need answers on.

1) Ok whats the verdict on Gause, Gyroc, Gyrojet, Rail, Coil guns, and
weapon systems? Are we using them and if so what were the guidelines put
forth in forum here? Oh and Ramjets while were at it.

2) Ok I saw a posting (in regards to Adams Getchels stealth suit)
regarding SMART Ammo. Agin what was the verdict and how did the forum
decided on their uses?

3) Wpuld someone please unconfuse me. Im still not sure how hardened
armor works. Is it like Barriers or vehicle armor or what.

4) Ok heres a neat one. What was talked about Ring Air Foils and Disk
Airfoils. In regards to their use and if runners could get them.

(Yes Adam Ive been reading your stuff and loving it all)

5) what was the defining points to differ Stun vs Gel rounds?
Message no. 131
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 17:38:32 -0800
On Sun, 1 Jan 1995, Paul Finch wrote:

> 1) Ok whats the verdict on Gause, Gyroc, Gyrojet, Rail, Coil guns, and
> weapon systems? Are we using them and if so what were the guidelines put
> forth in forum here? Oh and Ramjets while were at it.

Gauss, rail, coil are all basically the same system: a
magnetically accelerated projectile system. There's a related and
currently more practical idea called Electrothermal or
Combustion-Augmented Plasma, either way using plasma for propellant
instead of gunpowder.

> 2) Ok I saw a posting (in regards to Adams Getchels stealth suit)
> regarding SMART Ammo. Agin what was the verdict and how did the forum
> decided on their uses?

Haven't reposted that yet ... posted it about 3 years back ...
basically "brilliant pebbles".


> 4) Ok heres a neat one. What was talked about Ring Air Foils and Disk
> Airfoils. In regards to their use and if runners could get them.

Ring airfoils are useful for giving grenades flatter
trajectories ... the U.S. Army version was launched from a post (later to
be the barrel of the SIWS) and had about four grenades worth of charge
... disk airfoils are much the same thing, except that the disk shape is
ideal for using SEFOP (self-forging projectiles) such as the Assault Breaker
system in the U.S. Army MLS (multiple launch system).
Mercs could probably get 'em ....


========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html
Message no. 132
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 17:42:26 -0800
On Sun, 1 Jan 1995, Paul Finch wrote:

> 1) Ok whats the verdict on Gause, Gyroc, Gyrojet, Rail, Coil guns, and
> weapon systems? Are we using them and if so what were the guidelines put
> forth in forum here? Oh and Ramjets while were at it.

Gyroc and Gyrojet are basically the same thing; rocket munitions
for personal weapons. The 1950's version had awful accuracy (13" groups)
but maybe twice the energy of a .44 magnum. Ramjets would be a good way of
boosting rifle bullet velocity, but would be currently illegal under the
Hague Convention because a ramjet round necessarily has a hollowpoint or
"dum-dum" type head.

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html
Message no. 133
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 18:57:58 -0700
On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Adam Getchell wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jan 1995, Paul Finch wrote:
>
> > 1) Ok whats the verdict on Gause, Gyroc, Gyrojet, Rail, Coil guns, and
> > weapon systems? Are we using them and if so what were the guidelines put
> > forth in forum here? Oh and Ramjets while were at it.
>
> Gauss, rail, coil are all basically the same system: a
> magnetically accelerated projectile system. There's a related and
> currently more practical idea called Electrothermal or
> Combustion-Augmented Plasma, either way using plasma for propellant
> instead of gunpowder.

I pretty much know that but what I was asking was do thoses on the list
want and or already do use them. Im not going to crank out the stuff if
nobody will use them.

>
> > 2) Ok I saw a posting (in regards to Adams Getchels stealth suit)
> > regarding SMART Ammo. Agin what was the verdict and how did the forum
> > decided on their uses?
>
> Haven't reposted that yet ... posted it about 3 years back ...
> basically "brilliant pebbles".

Please repost them for me or at least send them to me. Thanks
>
> > 4) Ok heres a neat one. What was talked about Ring Air Foils and Disk
> > Airfoils. In regards to their use and if runners could get them.
>
> Ring airfoils are useful for giving grenades flatter
> trajectories ... the U.S. Army version was launched from a post (later to
> be the barrel of the SIWS) and had about four grenades worth of charge
> .. disk airfoils are much the same thing, except that the disk shape is
> ideal for using SEFOP (self-forging projectiles) such as the Assault Breaker
> system in the U.S. Army MLS (multiple launch system).
> Mercs could probably get 'em ....

So do we want rule for them guys?
Message no. 134
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 19:00:15 -0700
On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Adam Getchell wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jan 1995, Paul Finch wrote:
>
> > 1) Ok whats the verdict on Gause, Gyroc, Gyrojet, Rail, Coil guns, and
> > weapon systems? Are we using them and if so what were the guidelines put
> > forth in forum here? Oh and Ramjets while were at it.
>
> Gyroc and Gyrojet are basically the same thing; rocket munitions
> for personal weapons. The 1950's version had awful accuracy (13" groups)
> but maybe twice the energy of a .44 magnum. Ramjets would be a good way of
> boosting rifle bullet velocity, but would be currently illegal under the
> Hague Convention because a ramjet round necessarily has a hollowpoint or
> "dum-dum" type head.

Again do you all on the list want rules for their use? Adam you are one
slick sick puppy Im reading your stuff as I type this.:)

Later Edge
Message no. 135
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions (fwd)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 14:53:45 -0800
On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Paul Finch wrote:

> Again do you all on the list want rules for their use? Adam you are one
> slick sick puppy Im reading your stuff as I type this.:)

Why thank you. ;-) At one time I was thinking of going into
Weapon Design for the Army/Navy. ;->

> Later Edge

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html
Message no. 136
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:37:08 +6000
Jani fikouras wrote:
>
>> I'd say he'll fall over where he is on the astral. Why should he be dragged
>> back to his body? If he were concious, he actually needs to find his damn
>> body to get back into it, so why should he be dragged back into it if he
>> passes out and is unconcious? If my body was stolen (sounds like a movie
>> from a long time ago...) by someone while I was out in astral space, and I
>> couldn't find it, I could merely cast a Stunbolt on myself, pass out, and be
>> automatically dragged back to my body. I say he stays where he is on the
>> astral, and better hope like hell he wakes up before his Essence runs out.
>
> I realise the problem here, but you must consider that the only way
> to get stun damage in the astral is to get hit by another mage who choses to
> do stun. Spells are no spell in the astral remember ! So even if you
> manage to cast a stunnbolt at yourself (which I doubt) it will be some
> astral animal and will do physical to you.

I agree here but someone could hit your meat body for stun right?
Also what if instead of knocking your meat body unconscious how about
they pump you full of sedative - is it the same as stun? what effect
do most drugs have when you are astral projecting?

Along a similar line am I right in thinking that when someone goes into
a coma their brain is still functioning. If so could they be active
on either in the matrix or on the astral plane?

Does the meat body still have an aura, as that of a mage, whilst your
projecting? Can you cast mind probe or control thoughts/emotions/actions
type spells on the meat body while owner is projecting?

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 137
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:02:21 +0200
> I agree here but someone could hit your meat body for stun right?
> Also what if instead of knocking your meat body unconscious how about
> they pump you full of sedative - is it the same as stun? what effect
> do most drugs have when you are astral projecting?

If someone hits your meat body, you automatically get dumped out of the
astral.

> Along a similar line am I right in thinking that when someone goes into
> a coma their brain is still functioning. If so could they be active
> on either in the matrix or on the astral plane?

I guess that a projecting mage apears as if he is in a comma, but
a mage in "real" comma wouldnt be able to do nothing.

> Does the meat body still have an aura, as that of a mage, whilst your
> projecting? Can you cast mind probe or control thoughts/emotions/actions
> type spells on the meat body while owner is projecting?

It does albeit a weak one, and I'd say that you can control thoughts it -
but you certainly can "control actions" it :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 138
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:03:17 +0930
Philip Hayward wrote:
> I agree here but someone could hit your meat body for stun right?
> Also what if instead of knocking your meat body unconscious how about
> they pump you full of sedative - is it the same as stun? what effect
> do most drugs have when you are astral projecting?
>
Hit a projecting mage, and they die. Pure and simple. Inject sedatives, and
the needle will kill them. Use patches, or gas, and it might knock them
unconcious. Any drug which has deleterious (that's BAD) effects will
probably kill them.

> Along a similar line am I right in thinking that when someone goes into
> a coma their brain is still functioning. If so could they be active
> on either in the matrix or on the astral plane?
>
No... when you go into a coma, it's cause your brain has decided to
retreat. You may be astrally active (unconciously, of course), but not
active in the matrix.

> Does the meat body still have an aura, as that of a mage, whilst your
> projecting? Can you cast mind probe or control thoughts/emotions/actions
> type spells on the meat body while owner is projecting?

You betcha...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 139
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:43:00 +0200
>Hit a projecting mage, and they die. Pure and simple. Inject sedatives, and
>the needle will kill them. Use patches, or gas, and it might knock them
>unconcious. Any drug which has deleterious (that's BAD) effects will
>probably kill them.

Not in my game. It's just silly, IMO.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Be yourself no matter what they say
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 140
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:37:23 BST
Robert Watkins said :-
> Hit a projecting mage, and they die. Pure and simple. Inject sedatives, and
> the needle will kill them. Use patches, or gas, and it might knock them
> unconcious. Any drug which has deleterious (that's BAD) effects will
> probably kill them.

Hey, since when did that happen, that house rule or official?

If that is indeed the case, then I've been missing a new way to scare off
those annoying astral scouts, who make partially prepared targets such a
nightmare.

D'ya have any semi "real-world" explanation for that, or is it just in the
grimmy?



Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Deciding he liked life better as a sammy/ganger anyway.
Message no. 141
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:18:50 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> >Hit a projecting mage, and they die. Pure and simple. Inject sedatives, and
> >the needle will kill them. Use patches, or gas, and it might knock them
> >unconcious. Any drug which has deleterious (that's BAD) effects will
> >probably kill them.
>
> Not in my game. It's just silly, IMO.
>

Yeah, well, I don't really play it like that either. But that's the
standard rule, and god but it scares the living daylights out of projecting
mages at times.

"What do you mean all the buildings are jumping around? San Francisco
doesn't get earthquakes..."

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 142
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:32:35 +0930
P Ward wrote:
>
> Robert Watkins said :-
> > Hit a projecting mage, and they die. Pure and simple. Inject sedatives, and
> > the needle will kill them. Use patches, or gas, and it might knock them
> > unconcious. Any drug which has deleterious (that's BAD) effects will
> > probably kill them.
>
> Hey, since when did that happen, that house rule or official?
>
Official. Check out the Astral Projection rules. It states (paraphrasing,
as I don't have it with me): "The slightest injury to the mage's body while
Astrally Projecting can result in death".

One DM I knew extended this to include bumps taken in traffic.

> If that is indeed the case, then I've been missing a new way to scare off
> those annoying astral scouts, who make partially prepared targets such a
> nightmare.

> D'ya have any semi "real-world" explanation for that, or is it just in the
> grimmy?

Main book, in the Astral Projection section. Real world explanation: it's
based on myths, I think, about the body being vulnerable when the soul is
absent.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 143
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:26:32 +1000
> I agree here but someone could hit your meat body for stun right?
> Also what if instead of knocking your meat body unconscious how about
> they pump you full of sedative - is it the same as stun? what effect
> do most drugs have when you are astral projecting?

Jani Fikouras writes:

> If someone hits your meat body, you automatically get dumped out of the
> astral.

This makes it too easy on the mage. It's more common for the mage to
want to return to her body quickly.

luke
Message no. 144
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:03:46 +0200
>This makes it too easy on the mage. It's more common for the mage to
>want to return to her body quickly.

I just noticed another strange situation in the SR rules for astral
projection: if somebody moves the magician's body, he can't find it back and
must roll that test to find it. But if someone casts an area-effect spell at
the magician in astral space, it grounds through his body even if he's 1000
km away from it... why can the spell find the body without any trouble but
does the character have to go look for it?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...the insects are huge and the poison's all been used...
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 145
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 18:07:13 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> >This makes it too easy on the mage. It's more common for the mage to
> >want to return to her body quickly.
>
> I just noticed another strange situation in the SR rules for astral
> projection: if somebody moves the magician's body, he can't find it back and
> must roll that test to find it. But if someone casts an area-effect spell at
> the magician in astral space, it grounds through his body even if he's 1000
> km away from it... why can the spell find the body without any trouble but
> does the character have to go look for it?

'Cause it goes down a link between the mage and his body, which the mage
can't detect (nor can anyone else).

It makes finding the body easy though... cast a physical, or area-effect
spell at yourself, and follow it down. :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 146
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:31:06 +6000
Robert watkins wrote:
>
>>I just noticed another strange situation in the SR rules for astral
>>projection: if somebody moves the magician's body, he can't find it back and
>>must roll that test to find it. But if someone casts an area-effect spell at
>>the magician in astral space, it grounds through his body even if he's 1000
>>km away from it... why can the spell find the body without any trouble but
>>does the character have to go look for it?
>
> 'Cause it goes down a link between the mage and his body, which the mage
> can't detect (nor can anyone else).
>
> It makes finding the body easy though... cast a physical, or area-effect
> spell at yourself, and follow it down. :)

If someones pinched your body, I'd make a personal barrier :) and do
it quickly and followed by personal combat sense, and any enhance
attributes if you have them :) you might not like whats at the
other end (but it'll happen anyway)

Phil
<Philip.Hayward>
Message no. 147
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 20:13:33 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> If someone hits your meat body, you automatically get dumped out of the
> astral.

Reference?

----------------------
Robert Watkins writes:

> Official. Check out the Astral Projection rules. It states (paraphrasing,
> as I don't have it with me): "The slightest injury to the mage's body while
> Astrally Projecting can result in death".

"Almost any wound to the comatose form will drive it into fatal shock."
pg 147 SRI

> One DM I knew extended this to include bumps taken in traffic.
>
> Main book, in the Astral Projection section. Real world explanation: it's
> based on myths, I think, about the body being vulnerable when the soul is
> absent.

There's the rule, and the explanation is included in it. However, I feel the
"needles will automatically kill you" bit is taking it a little too far. It
does say "Almost..." And it also says that mundane healing techniques can be
applied to the body, pg 147 also, so I guess you can inflict minor cuts and
stuff and not kill the magician.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 148
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 19:54:48 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
> There's the rule, and the explanation is included in it. However, I feel the
> "needles will automatically kill you" bit is taking it a little too far. It
> does say "Almost..." And it also says that mundane healing techniques can
be
> applied to the body, pg 147 also, so I guess you can inflict minor cuts and
> stuff and not kill the magician.

You've never had a needle the way they give them up here, then...

(Also, there's lots of mundane healing techniques that don't cut... first
aid typically doesn't cut, neither do patches, etc.)

Normally, what I do is that if you'd need a damage resistance test, it'd
kill you. Some other things might kill you as well (ie, bumpy roads aren't
normally a threat, but to a projecting mage, they would be).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 149
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 20:44:28 +1000
Robert Watkins writes:

> 'Cause it goes down a link between the mage and his body, which the mage
> can't detect (nor can anyone else).

OK, sounds fine to me.

> It makes finding the body easy though... cast a physical, or area-effect
> spell at yourself, and follow it down. :)

But this doesn't. It completely defeats the rules on finding your body from
the astral. Anyway, it couldn't be done. Think about it. To actually follow
the spell, you'd need a delayed action (otherwsie it'd bugger off to damn
fast to follow), but 1) You are casting it, and so therefore cannot be
delaying an action at the same time
2) You cannot use dealyed actions to interfere with
spells cast from one astral entity to another (like
from you to you), so even if your buddy casts it on
you, and you delay your action, you still couldn't
follow it.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 150
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 21:14:57 +1000
Robert Watkins writes:

> (Also, there's lots of mundane healing techniques that don't cut... first
> aid typically doesn't cut, neither do patches, etc.)

But giving first aid to someone with a bleeding cut on their leg (as in a
repercussive wound from a weapon focus hit), would probbaly require doing a
little incidental damage to the comatose body. (It'd require applying
pressure at the very least, which would be no less than a slap on the
forehead - something which has been suggested would automatically kill the
body).

> Normally, what I do is that if you'd need a damage resistance test, it'd
> kill you. Some other things might kill you as well (ie, bumpy roads aren't
> normally a threat, but to a projecting mage, they would be).

Anything which requires a Damage Resistance test sounds fair enough, the
bumpy roads bit just seems too extreme to me.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 151
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:02:06 BST
What it says regarding projeting mages and wounding is that 'nearly any
injury will cause them to go into fatal shock'. (or something like that).

I guess that shock will kill you really fast if you don't have any
willpower to fight through it Neh?

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 152
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:12:07 BST
> It makes finding the body easy though... cast a physical, or area-effect
> spell at yourself, and follow it down. :)

Wait a minute, wouldn;t the thing have to defeat you in astral combat
before it could ground (I hope that's what the smiley was for).

So first the spell would kick your ass, ground out on your physical body,
by means of being stuck tyo your astral self until it re-attaches to your
physical body, and then you lie there bleeding with new clothes.


I figure that's how you astral spells ground out, they stick with your
aura over the fraction of a second it takes to reutrn to your body, and
then they go off. Nice and simple Neh?


Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
with help from Chases-Carp
Message no. 153
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 02:02:32 +1000
P Ward writes:

> > It makes finding the body easy though... cast a physical, or area-effect
> > spell at yourself, and follow it down. :)
>
> Wait a minute, wouldn;t the thing have to defeat you in astral combat
> before it could ground (I hope that's what the smiley was for).

That depends on how you interpret the spellcasting on the astral rules. The
way I read it, if you cast a spell at an astral target, and you are astrally
present yourself, then the spell cannot be intercepted, and has its normal
effect on the target. The only way to get into astral combat with a spell is
to have a delayed action, and intercept it. And even then, you can only do
that with spells going from the physical to the phsyical. Take a read of the
rules on pg 148 and tell me what you think.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 154
From: NIGHTFOX <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:25:01 -0700
2) You cannot use dealyed actions to interfere with
spells cast from one astral entity to another (like
from you to you), so even if your buddy casts it on
you, and you delay your action, you still couldn't
follow it.

HEY!!! someone else remembers this rule!!!

The only way to truely understand how spells work is to read the magic section
about 1 time per month - and look at the words. Don't look at what you think
should be there.


Nightfox
Message no. 155
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 14:05:52 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> But giving first aid to someone with a bleeding cut on their leg (as in a
> repercussive wound from a weapon focus hit), would probbaly require doing a
> little incidental damage to the comatose body. (It'd require applying
> pressure at the very least, which would be no less than a slap on the
> forehead - something which has been suggested would automatically kill the
> body).

A slap is a sharp, hard blow... applying pressure to a wound is a fairly
gentle process (unless you're being treated by a trainee, of course. :) ).
I can't see the comparison.

> > Normally, what I do is that if you'd need a damage resistance test, it'd
> > kill you. Some other things might kill you as well (ie, bumpy roads aren't
> > normally a threat, but to a projecting mage, they would be).
>
> Anything which requires a Damage Resistance test sounds fair enough, the
> bumpy roads bit just seems too extreme to me.

An aware person has no trouble in bumpy roads, but a comatose (or
projecting) person can't prepare himself for any bumps, or brace in, or
anything. Way to easy to do things like slam a head against a roof or
window, or something, even if strapped in.

Ever been a plane, fall asleep, and then hit turbulence?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 156
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 15:38:29 +1000
Robert Watkins writes:

> A slap is a sharp, hard blow... applying pressure to a wound is a fairly
> gentle process (unless you're being treated by a trainee, of course. :) ).
> I can't see the comparison.

Ok, you have a point there.

> > Anything which requires a Damage Resistance test sounds fair enough, the
> > bumpy roads bit just seems too extreme to me.
>
> An aware person has no trouble in bumpy roads, but a comatose (or
> projecting) person can't prepare himself for any bumps, or brace in, or
> anything. Way to easy to do things like slam a head against a roof or
> window, or something, even if strapped in.

So what about a mosquito bite? That's a wound. I just think that allowing
_any_ old little wound to kill the projecting magican is a little extreme.
Unless the vehicle he is projecting from is doing enough manouvering so that
he would suffer damage, then I don't think minor bumps will outright kill
him. But if you want to really crack down on projecting magicians in your
game, then I suppose it is a good rule - it'll make those magicians think
twice about projecting, that's for sure.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 157
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 12:03:25 BST
Damoin Gurued (And I am glad he did) :-
> That depends on how you interpret the spellcasting on the astral rules. The
> way I read it, if you cast a spell at an astral target, and you are astrally
> present yourself, then the spell cannot be intercepted, and has its normal
> effect on the target. The only way to get into astral combat with a spell is
> to have a delayed action, and intercept it. And even then, you can only do
> that with spells going from the physical to the phsyical. Take a read of the
> rules on pg 148 and tell me what you think.

Oh yeah, good point, that makes the mage's life easier (damn).

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 158
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 22:50:37 +1000
P Ward writes:

> > That depends on how you interpret the spellcasting on the astral rules.
> > The way I read it, if you cast a spell at an astral target, and you are
> > astrally present yourself, then the spell cannot be intercepted, and has its
> > normal effect on the target. The only way to get into astral combat with a
> > spell is to have a delayed action, and intercept it. And even then, you can
> > only do that with spells going from the physical to the phsyical. Take a
> > read of the rules on pg 148 and tell me what you think.
>
> Oh yeah, good point, that makes the mage's life easier (damn).

It makes life quite nasty when another magician casts a spell at him on the
astral though, since he cops it without being able to engage it in astral
combat first. But I'm not so sure on my interpretation, so could someone
else give me their thoughts too?

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 159
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: questions?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 14:59:41 +6000
Simple questions, will they have simple answers?

When casting a spell into a spell lock do you include
magic pool dice?

Could you use a fetish focus to gain more successes
when casting into a spell lock?
i.e. pay 30,000 for a rating 10 fetish foci so
you have 10 more dice with which to gain successes
when using a spell lock or creating a quickening :)
At no additional karma cost

I assume spell locks still work after a shapechage spell
Even with a increase attribute when the TN changes
ie. TN = attributex2 shapechange changes your attribute

What do you use to work out combat pool from when shapechanged
your new attributes or your true attributes?

If shapechanged into a bear with strengh 9 and damage 6S
should an increase strength+3 spell increase both strength and
damage, if not why not?

Can you use power foci, fetish foci, or magic pool to increase
the successes in a spell lock at character generation i.e.
assume you had them before the spell lock

Can you use exclusivity on a spell when casting it in a spell
lock then then have the lock active while you cast other spells?

Can you have force 6 spells with exclusivity, fetish and totem
modifiers for a total of 12 at character generation?
(munchkinism aside is it against the rules)
or is it a total of 6

Sorry for the after taste of munchkinite

Most of these are honest questions ;)
some are because I intend to point out some things
and I would rather point out the correct things :)

Phil
<philip.hayward@***.uk>
Message no. 160
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 15:29:34 BST
The other Phil (Hayward) asks quite a lot of stuff;

I'll do the ones (I think) I know;

> When casting a spell into a spell lock do you include
> magic pool dice?
yup, why not; it's still a a spell isn't it.


> Could you use a fetish focus to gain more successes
> when casting into a spell lock?
> i.e. pay 30,000 for a rating 10 fetish foci so
> you have 10 more dice with which to gain successes
> when using a spell lock or creating a quickening :)
> At no additional karma cost
Guess so, but make the Pc's pay through the teeth for it.


> I assume spell locks still work after a shapechage spell
> Even with a increase attribute when the TN changes
> ie. TN = attributex2 shapechange changes your attribute
I just let them have the same stat bonuses on top of their
new physical stats.

> What do you use to work out combat pool from when shapechanged
> your new attributes or your true attributes?
Well, only quickness changes; work it out again, maybe even apply
a penalty because you're not used to the new body.


> If shapechanged into a bear with strengh 9 and damage 6S
> should an increase strength+3 spell increase both strength and
> damage, if not why not?
I _think_ in the Critters section it says that damage codes remain
the same even for critteres with increased size/stats. I personally
boost the codes if the critter gets bigger, so you should do the same
for the Stat increase. Just add the strength increase straight onto
the damage code.

> Can you use power foci, fetish foci, or magic pool to increase
> the successes in a spell lock at character generation i.e.
> assume you had them before the spell lock
The number of successes doesn't make any difference to a spell-lock,
so it dont worry about it (they don't matter, do they Mr Guru?)


> Can you use exclusivity on a spell when casting it in a spell
> lock then then have the lock active while you cast other spells?
Probably, it's just the casting that's exclusive, not the sustaining;
check me here Mr Guru. Even so, the spell lock is doing the _exclusive_
job of sustaining, so it's OK, neh?

> Can you have force 6 spells with exclusivity, fetish and totem1
> modifiers for a total of 12 at character generation?
> (munchkinism aside is it against the rules)
> or is it a total of 6

I think the maximum rating for spells at the start is 6, originally
I ruled that that _included_ the force modifiers, now I think I am
correct in ruling that they don't, so you can get a force 10 spell
to start with (but make it something with a low drain modifier,
won't you).

NB. Totem modifiers add DICE ONLY, not force (check me again mr guru).


Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 161
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 00:31:11 +0930
Philip Hayward wrote:
> Simple questions, will they have simple answers?

Yeah, right...

> When casting a spell into a spell lock do you include
> magic pool dice?

I don't. Some might. There's no clear rule on this, AFAIK. My rationale is
you are too involved in locking the spell in.

> Could you use a fetish focus to gain more successes
> when casting into a spell lock?
> i.e. pay 30,000 for a rating 10 fetish foci so
> you have 10 more dice with which to gain successes
> when using a spell lock or creating a quickening :)
> At no additional karma cost

Nope, not in my game. Again, no rules.

> I assume spell locks still work after a shapechage spell
> Even with a increase attribute when the TN changes
> ie. TN = attributex2 shapechange changes your attribute

The shapechange spell is quite explict: clothing and equipment do not
transform. If you are still capable of holding the spell lock after the
change, then it will still work.

> What do you use to work out combat pool from when shapechanged
> your new attributes or your true attributes?

You use _effective_ attributes. Always.

> If shapechanged into a bear with strengh 9 and damage 6S
> should an increase strength+3 spell increase both strength and
> damage, if not why not?

It'd increase Strength. Is the damage linked to Strength, though? Aye,
there's the rub.

> Can you use power foci, fetish foci, or magic pool to increase
> the successes in a spell lock at character generation i.e.
> assume you had them before the spell lock

See above.

> Can you use exclusivity on a spell when casting it in a spell
> lock then then have the lock active while you cast other spells?

Yep.

> Can you have force 6 spells with exclusivity, fetish and totem
> modifiers for a total of 12 at character generation?
> (munchkinism aside is it against the rules)
> or is it a total of 6

Hmm... guess so. Not with me, though... I only allow a spell to have a
Force up to six (including all mods except totem modifiers) at char gen.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 162
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 01:25:59 +1000
P Ward writes:

> > When casting a spell into a spell lock do you include magic pool dice?
> yup, why not; it's still a a spell isn't it.

I agree.

> > Could you use a fetish focus to gain more successes when casting into a
> Guess so, but make the Pc's pay through the teeth for it.

That's a good thought, I can't see why it isn't possible either. Now
magicians around the world actually have something to spend all that nuyen
they seem to accumulate on. Riggers, deckers and sammies are suddenly caught
short as the magicians call back in all those debts...

> > I assume spell locks still work after a shapechage spell Even with a
> I just let them have the same stat bonuses on top of their new physical
> stats.

I, too would leave the stat bonus the same.

> > What do you use to work out combat pool from when shapechanged
> Well, only quickness changes; work it out again, maybe even apply
> a penalty because you're not used to the new body.

Yup, I agree. Thogugh I probably wouldn't give the penalty (I'm a softy at
heart :-)). After all, it _is_ magic.

> > If shapechanged into a bear with strengh 9 and damage 6S should an
> I _think_ in the Critters section it says that damage codes remain the
> same even for critteres with increased size/stats. I personally boost the
> codes if the critter gets bigger, so you should do the same for the Stat
> increase. Just add the strength increase straight onto the damage code.

You're right, the damage codes do not change for the under/over sized
critters, so therefore alterations in stats do not affect the damage code.
But your house rule does make sense.

> > Can you use power foci, fetish foci, or magic pool to increase the
> The number of successes doesn't make any difference to a spell-lock, so it
> dont worry about it (they don't matter, do they Mr Guru?)

The number of dice would, in the case of a spell such as Combat Sense, where
the succeses earned determine the final outcome of the spell. I'd allow the
player to include the Power focus bonus, after all, the spell lock isn't
likely to stay around for long, so it won't matter all that much (and it
pays to keep players happy :-)).

> > Can you use exclusivity on a spell when casting it in a spell lock then
> Probably, it's just the casting that's exclusive, not the sustaining;
> check me here Mr Guru. Even so, the spell lock is doing the _exclusive_ job
> of sustaining, so it's OK, neh?

Well, the sustaining of an exclusive spell is an exclusive activity (if you
have an exclusive +4 Quickness spell, then when it is running you cannot
cast any other spells, nor call elementals etc). But fortunately, the spell
lock relieves the burden of sustaining from the magician, and he no longer
has to concern himself with it, so, like you said, no problem.

> > Can you have force 6 spells with exclusivity, fetish and totem1
> I think the maximum rating for spells at the start is 6, originally I
> ruled that that _included_ the force modifiers, now I think I am correct in
> ruling that they don't, so you can get a force 10 spell to start with (but
> make it something with a low drain modifier, won't you). NB. Totem
> modifiers add DICE ONLY, not force (check me again mr guru).

It is the option of the GM to allow restricted use spells to starting
characters. It is possible to learn a spell with both the exclusive modifier
and the expendible fetish modifier, thus gaining a +4 Force bonus. And yes,
totem dice are considered to be Magic Pool dice (so, it is not possible, for
example,afor a shamen with a Magic Attribute of 6 to lob a spell and add in 6
dice from his Magic Pool, _and_ also add in totem bonuses. The totem bonuses
are considered a "free" addition to the Magic Pool at the time of casting).
The rules are unclear as to if (assuming the GM allows) it is possible to
begin the game with a Force 6 spell with restricted spell modifiers. My
interpretation is that the total Force (including modifiers) cannot exceed
6, but I am not too sure on that (anyone know for sure?).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 163
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 12:31:17 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
> > > Can you use exclusivity on a spell when casting it in a spell lock then
> > Probably, it's just the casting that's exclusive, not the sustaining;
> > check me here Mr Guru. Even so, the spell lock is doing the _exclusive_ job
> > of sustaining, so it's OK, neh?
>
> Well, the sustaining of an exclusive spell is an exclusive activity (if you
> have an exclusive +4 Quickness spell, then when it is running you cannot
> cast any other spells, nor call elementals etc). But fortunately, the spell
> lock relieves the burden of sustaining from the magician, and he no longer
> has to concern himself with it, so, like you said, no problem.

You could extend Exclusivity to include no other magical activity (ie, no
conjuring, spell defence, _OR_ enchanting. :) )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 164
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 20:18:52 +0200
> When casting a spell into a spell lock do you include
> magic pool dice?

Yes

> Could you use a fetish focus to gain more successes
> when casting into a spell lock?

Yes

> I assume spell locks still work after a shapechage spell
> Even with a increase attribute when the TN changes
> ie. TN = attributex2 shapechange changes your attribute

Yes

> What do you use to work out combat pool from when shapechanged
> your new attributes or your true attributes?

Your new ones, after all thats the point aint it ?

> If shapechanged into a bear with strengh 9 and damage 6S
> should an increase strength+3 spell increase both strength and
> damage, if not why not?

I'd say it still works

> Can you use power foci, fetish foci, or magic pool to increase
> the successes in a spell lock at character generation i.e.
> assume you had them before the spell lock

No, but I generally let players roll for stuff like
elementals and such right after generation. This is ofcourse a
house rule.

> Can you use exclusivity on a spell when casting it in a spell
> lock then then have the lock active while you cast other spells?

No

> Can you have force 6 spells with exclusivity, fetish and totem
> modifiers for a total of 12 at character generation?
> (munchkinism aside is it against the rules)
> or is it a total of 6

Yes and I think I can get you a reference if you need one.

> Sorry for the after taste of munchkinite
> Most of these are honest questions ;)
> some are because I intend to point out some things
> and I would rather point out the correct things :)

Point out some things to us ? maybe ? :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 165
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 20:23:11 +0200
> > Can you use power foci, fetish foci, or magic pool to increase
> > the successes in a spell lock at character generation i.e.
> > assume you had them before the spell lock
> The number of successes doesn't make any difference to a spell-lock,
> so it dont worry about it (they don't matter, do they Mr Guru?)

Wel if you have a spell like impr. invisibility they most certainly
do. After all the "visibility modifier" for others to see you is
successesX2.

> NB. Totem modifiers add DICE ONLY, not force (check me again mr guru).

Yep

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 166
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 10:12:08 BST
Robert Watkins wrote :-
>> I assume spell locks still work after a shapechage spell
>> Even with a increase attribute when the TN changes
>> ie. TN = attributex2 shapechange changes your attribute
>
> The shapechange spell is quite explict: clothing and equipment do not
> transform. If you are still capable of holding the spell lock after the
> change, then it will still work.

You don't have to hold the spell lock, foci you might have to hold,
but locks become part of you rperson when they're locked. Remember
that thread about them becoming invisible? I believe they attach too...

Damion wrote :-
> > > Can you use power foci, fetish foci, or magic pool to increase the
> > The number of successes doesn't make any difference to a spell-lock, so it
> > dont worry about it (they don't matter, do they Mr Guru?)
>
> The number of dice would, in the case of a spell such as Combat Sense, where
> the succeses earned determine the final outcome of the spell. I'd allow the
> player to include the Power focus bonus, after all, the spell lock isn't
> likely to stay around for long, so it won't matter all that much (and it
> pays to keep players happy :-)).

Ah of course, forgot about those...

> And yes, totem dice are considered to be Magic Pool dice
Now I thought that totem bonus dice were a flat bonus, as opposed to more
magic pool. After all, if they were magic pool, based on the new NAGM rules
on specialisation/etc of Sorcery skill, you'd be able to use them in spell
defence/shielding as well.

I treat it as bonus dice on top of magic pool. Though if you can give me
a (rough) reference to where it treats them as pool, then I'll happily change.

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 167
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:32:36 +0930
P Ward wrote:
> You don't have to hold the spell lock, foci you might have to hold,
> but locks become part of you rperson when they're locked. Remember
> that thread about them becoming invisible? I believe they attach too...

Nope... otherwise how could you lose contact? Or throw them away from you
(see the story at the front of the main book... the wagemage throws away
his bullet barrier spell lock.)

I say locks have to get attached... necklaces, bracelets (especially charm
bracelets... tailor made for the job. :) ) are good.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 168
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 03:12:54 +1000
Robert Watkins wrote :-
>> I assume spell locks still work after a shapechage spell
>> Even with a increase attribute when the TN changes
>> ie. TN = attributex2 shapechange changes your attribute
>
> The shapechange spell is quite explict: clothing and equipment do not
> transform. If you are still capable of holding the spell lock after the
> change, then it will still work.

This is a problem that has occurred quite a bit in my games. It came to my
attention when a player was so foolish as to actually say "no, I'll quicken
the spell and *then* put up my Willpower."

At that point, I made a simple ruling that I use for all these
moving-target-number spells: Write down the highest die roll in the
casting. Use that to determine the maximum spell increase. eg. Casting
Increase Body +4 (Body 5): The 7 dice come up 1, 3, 4, 4, 4, 9, 11. The
highest roll, 11, is enough to increase the stat from 5 to 9, so that's as
high as that spell can make it. If the character increases natural Body to
6, then the spell only increases it to 9. Likewise for Reaction (especially
after Quickness+X and Intelligence+X) and Reflexes (after Increase Reaction
for Physical Adepts, Synaptic Accelerators, and Shapechanging to Tiger). If
their attributes exceed the effectiveness of the spell, it has no effect.

By the way, has any player ever used Increase Attribute that *isn't* +4?


> And yes, totem dice are considered to be Magic Pool dice

As far as the rules go, yes. On the other hand, all the SR GMs I know treat
the totem modifiers as simply +/- total dice.

--
Tim Little
Message no. 169
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 16:29:19 -0400
On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, P Ward wrote:

> Robert Watkins wrote :-
> >> I assume spell locks still work after a shapechage spell
> >> Even with a increase attribute when the TN changes
> >> ie. TN = attributex2 shapechange changes your attribute
> >
> > The shapechange spell is quite explict: clothing and equipment do not
> > transform. If you are still capable of holding the spell lock after the
> > change, then it will still work.
>
> You don't have to hold the spell lock, foci you might have to hold,
> but locks become part of you rperson when they're locked. Remember
> that thread about them becoming invisible? I believe they attach too...
>
> Damion wrote :-
> > > > Can you use power foci, fetish foci, or magic pool to increase the
> > > The number of successes doesn't make any difference to a spell-lock, so it
> > > dont worry about it (they don't matter, do they Mr Guru?)
> >
> > The number of dice would, in the case of a spell such as Combat Sense, where
> > the succeses earned determine the final outcome of the spell. I'd allow the
> > player to include the Power focus bonus, after all, the spell lock isn't
> > likely to stay around for long, so it won't matter all that much (and it
> > pays to keep players happy :-)).
>
> Ah of course, forgot about those...
>
> > And yes, totem dice are considered to be Magic Pool dice
> Now I thought that totem bonus dice were a flat bonus, as opposed to more
> magic pool. After all, if they were magic pool, based on the new NAGM rules
> on specialisation/etc of Sorcery skill, you'd be able to use them in spell
> defence/shielding as well.
>
> I treat it as bonus dice on top of magic pool. Though if you can give me
> a (rough) reference to where it treats them as pool, then I'll happily change.
>
Look on page 119 of SRII, line 9 ( :) ) it says :
" A shaman has extra dice in his magic pool ...".

is that rough reference ok?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 170
From: "Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 00:07:31 GMT
In your message dated Friday 28, April 1995 you wrote :
> Robert Watkins wrote :-

> By the way, has any player ever used Increase Attribute that *isn't* +4?

Yes - in SR1 in protest at overly fast magicians I ruled that Increase
Reaction +4 caused nervous system damage if locked/quickened. +3 let you
keep up with the samurai, and it's all I've ever used.

Of course the munchkins all turned up with Combat Sense quickened to give
reaction 22+1d6 (four actions guaranteed...) But that's another story.


--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 171
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 10:28:41 BST
Steve Menard wrote
<snip al my stuff>

> Look on page 119 of SRII, line 9 ( :) ) it says :
> " A shaman has extra dice in his magic pool ...".
>
> is that rough reference ok?

wow, thanks I'll go look for that and change my game round.

I still say if those are magic pool, then you can use them
for spell defence against that type of spell though, as per
the NAGA (whatever).

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 172
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 13:03:51 GMT
Timothy Little writes

shapechange stuff deleted
>
> At that point, I made a simple ruling that I use for all these
> moving-target-number spells: Write down the highest die roll in the
> casting. Use that to determine the maximum spell increase. eg. Casting
> Increase Body +4 (Body 5): The 7 dice come up 1, 3, 4, 4, 4, 9, 11. The
> highest roll, 11, is enough to increase the stat from 5 to 9, so that's as
> high as that spell can make it. If the character increases natural Body to
> 6, then the spell only increases it to 9. Likewise for Reaction (especially
> after Quickness+X and Intelligence+X) and Reflexes (after Increase Reaction
> for Physical Adepts, Synaptic Accelerators, and Shapechanging to Tiger). If
> their attributes exceed the effectiveness of the spell, it has no effect.
>
thats very nasty, understandable but. And didn't you say your player
rolled an 11 then say the max is 9? Could you reword this a bit as
the above first suggests if you later raise the attribute the limit
to value is the highest dice roll and the later part that the limit
is attribute at the time you 'locked' (by any means) the spell plus
the spell effect. I know FASA do it all the time but.

> By the way, has any player ever used Increase Attribute that *isn't* +4?
>
No, and they only ever use the things with locks, coundn't have
anything to do with the +2 for sustaining spells, as if you cast
these things just before combat the lower ones might actually be used
as you don't immediately spend hours in bed to sleep off the drain.

Has anyone ever bothered to learn these things at over force 1? on
the oh 1 dice + whole magic pool, bed will solve drain method? it
will have been done but is it common?

Also very ture of +3D6 initatives, who uses the +1 or +2 dice
versions?

What about the fact that FASA never baned +6 or more version anywhere,
ok the base drains are not given but the progression is obviuos at
1 level / +1 (or +1D6) which just becomes +2 drain target above
deadly. [i am well aware of how powerful / munchkin / game busting
such spells would be]

> --
> Tim Little
>

Mark
Message no. 173
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 23:34:03 +1000
Robert Watkins writes:

> You could extend Exclusivity to include no other magical activity (ie, no
> conjuring, spell defence, _OR_ enchanting. :) )

It actually specifies that no other magical skill can be used while
performing an exclusive activity (such as maintaining an exclusive spell, or
calling an elemental etc). Thus you can't sustain or cast pells, enchant,
learn new spells etc. And since the Magic Pool is derived from the Sorcery
skill, one could probably easily enough rule that Spell Defence was out too.

---------------------
Jani Fikouras writes:

> > Can you use exclusivity on a spell when casting it in a spell
> > lock then then have the lock active while you cast other spells?
>
> No

Why not?

--------------
P Ward writes:

> I still say if those are magic pool, then you can use them for spell
> defence against that type of spell though, as per the NAGA (whatever).

No, you can't, because they only add to the shaman's Magic Pool "/at the
moment the spell is cast/." So, unless both you and your opponent are
casting a spell from the same category, at exactly the same time (ie, you
rolled identical initiative, and have the same Reaction stat, and are both
casting the spell in the same phase), then you cannot use the totem dice for
anything except the Spell Success Test, or the Drain Resistance Test.

---------------------
Mark Steedman writes:

> > [Method of stopping people using Increase Attribute spells, then
> > increasing the attribute with karma.]
>
> thats very nasty, understandable but. And didn't you say your player
> rolled an 11 then say the max is 9? Could you reword this a bit as
> the above first suggests if you later raise the attribute the limit
> to value is the highest dice roll and the later part that the limit
> is attribute at the time you 'locked' (by any means) the spell plus
> the spell effect. I know FASA do it all the time but.

I think it'd be simpler to just note down the highest roll of the spell when
it was locked (like, say you cast a +4 Willpower spell, and the best you
rolled was an 8, then you'd note down the 8). Then, if the person who the
lock is on has a natural Willpower of 4 or less (remember, the TN for an
Increase Attribute spell is twice the affected Attribute), everything is
doozy. But if they increase their natural Willpower (or even put on
cybernetic or bioware modifers), then the moment their Willpower Attribute
reaches 5, the spell cannot keep itself together any longer (since to cast a
spell on someone with a Willpower of 5 requires a 10 to be rolled for
success, so if a spell already operating on somebody is only "successful" up
to a Willpower of 8, then it will run out of "oomph" if the up their
Willpower to a level to which it would not have succeeded if it were cast
on them.). Err, horribly long sentance - hope it makes sense.

> > By the way, has any player ever used Increase Attribute that *isn't* +4?
>
> [No, then reasons why]

Exactly what I find.

> Has anyone ever bothered to learn these things at over force 1? on the oh
> 1 dice + whole magic pool, bed will solve drain method? it will have been
> done but is it common?

It is for the magicians in my games. The only use of these spells is to
Quicken or lock them, so why do you need them with good Force's? You're
never going to cast it when you don't have ages of spare time to rest off
the drain, and ages of spare time to retry when you fail. Casting such
spells in the middle of runs is not economical, both on drain, and success
level, not to mention the +2 modifer for sustaining the spell.

> [+6 Attributes]

Just out-right rule that it can't be done.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 174
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 09:38:33 -0700
>>Robert Watkins writes:
>> Has anyone ever bothered to learn these things at over force 1?
on the oh
>> 1 dice + whole magic pool, bed will solve drain method? it will
have been
>> done but is it common?
>
>Damion writes:
>It is for the magicians in my games. The only use of these spells is to
>Quicken or lock them, so why do you need them with good Force's? You're
>never going to cast it when you don't have ages of spare time to
rest off
>the drain, and ages of spare time to retry when you fail. Casting such
>spells in the middle of runs is not economical, both on drain, and
success
>level, not to mention the +2 modifer for sustaining the spell.

But from what I could tell the rules states that you spend a karma
as your casting the spell soooo failed attempts - still uses a
karma. Thus it might just pay off to have it a little higher.

>> [+6 Attributes]
>
>Just out-right rule that it can't be done.
>
Agreed!
Message no. 175
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 17:57:23 -0500
>Has anyone ever bothered to learn these things at over force 1? on
>the oh 1 dice + whole magic pool, bed will solve drain method? it
>will have been done but is it common?

Pool dice can't exceed spell dice the way I run it... foci probably
shouldn't be able to do more than the spell dice, either come to think of
it. What's the opinion on that flame-bait?

>Also very ture of +3D6 initatives, who uses the +1 or +2 dice
>versions?

Damn near nobody except the characters FASA makes. Maybe we should nudge
them in the direction of a successes dictate bonus sort of set-up?


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 176
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:30:53 +0200
> > And yes, totem dice are considered to be Magic Pool dice
> Now I thought that totem bonus dice were a flat bonus, as opposed to more
> magic pool. After all, if they were magic pool, based on the new NAGM rules
> on specialisation/etc of Sorcery skill, you'd be able to use them in spell
> defence/shielding as well.
>
> I treat it as bonus dice on top of magic pool. Though if you can give me
> a (rough) reference to where it treats them as pool, then I'll happily change.

Good question, I guess that I'd give the player a pool equall to his
spellcasting concentration. As blocking spells is as much a part of
spellcasting as actually chucking them (I guess).

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 177
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 19:15:52 +0200
> Jani Fikouras writes:
>
> > > Can you use exclusivity on a spell when casting it in a spell
> > > lock then then have the lock active while you cast other spells?
> >
> > No
>
> Why not?

I realise that there is no official ruling explicitly stating this,
but OTOH there no ruling allowing it either. As I see it magicians get
a pretty hefty advantage with exclusive spells and I admit that my
desician is pretty concervative because of that. Anyway my reasoning is
that even if the magician no longer "supports" the exclusive spell
himself he still interacts with it both mentally and "aurally" :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 178
From: U-Gene <C14101@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 14:50:11 EDT
Bob Ooton writes;
>>Has anyone bothered to learn these things at over force 1? On the
>>1 dice+whole magic pool, bed rest will solve the drain method? It will
>>have been done but is it common?
>
>Pool dice can't exceed spell dice the way I run it... foci probably
>shouldn't be able to do more then spell dice, either come to think of it.
>What's the opinion on that flame-bit?

I run it the same way Bob. I don't have a page reference right now but I know
it's in the black book somewhere. Since foci just add to your magic pool, they
are treated the same way.

There will be no 8 dice force 1 anything spells cast in my campaign!
(I will see if I can post a page reference if you want one.)

<< U-Gene -- Decker who just kicked his mage friend for no reason >>
Message no. 179
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 13:58:36 +1000
Gary Carroll writes:

> But from what I could tell the rules states that you spend a karma
> as your casting the spell soooo failed attempts - still uses a
> karma. Thus it might just pay off to have it a little higher.

The requirement for the creation of a spell lock is that the spell be
successfully cast. If you do not successfully cast the spell, then you don't
expend the karma. However, if you successfully cast the spell, then you
_will_ expend the karma, regardless of the degree of success of the spell
(ie even if you manage to cast a 1 success Armour spell, which is nigh on
useless, then if you declared you were locking it, you lock it, whether you
want to or not now that you have seen the successes you got). But if a spell
fails, you do not lose the karma you were going to use to lock it - you
never got the chance to lock it, so you never lost the karma. Anyway, it's
all on page 138 SRII if you want to look it up.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 180
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 14:24:10 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> I realise that there is no official ruling explicitly stating this,
> but OTOH there no ruling allowing it either. As I see it magicians get
> a pretty hefty advantage with exclusive spells and I admit that my
> desician is pretty concervative because of that. Anyway my reasoning is
> that even if the magician no longer "supports" the exclusive spell
> himself he still interacts with it both mentally and "aurally" :)

Well, I'd look at it like this:

On page 133 SRII, under the Restricted Use Spells, we have:

"When casting an exclusive spell, the magician cannot sustain or cast any
other spells in the same action. When sustaining an exclusive spell, the
magician cannot cast any other spells or use another magical skill."

Now, under the description of Spell Lcosk, page 138 SRII, we get:

"Once activated, the spell lock sustains the spell from astral space without
any additional involvement of the spellcaster."

Hence the magician who uses a spell lock to keep an exclusive spell going is
no longer sustaining the spell, and therefore no longer affected by the
restrictions of exclusive spells.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 181
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 14:58:49 +1000
U-Gene writes:

> >Pool dice can't exceed spell dice the way I run it... foci probably
> >shouldn't be able to do more then spell dice, either come to think of it.
> >What's the opinion on that flame-bit?
>
> I run it the same way Bob. I don't have a page reference right now but I
> know it's in the black book somewhere. Since foci just add to your magic
> pool, they are treated the same way.
>
> There will be no 8 dice force 1 anything spells cast in my campaign!
> (I will see if I can post a page reference if you want one.)

I think you'll be pushing it. I'll give you a page reference for the exact
opposite if you like however, try page 111 of the Grimything, where it says
"Does this mean a magician with Sorcery/Magic Pool of 6, a Power Focus (3),
and a +2 Totem Advantage for a spell can cast it with Force 1, and then roll
11 dice to smack the target? Yes." It then goes on to explain the problems
associated with doing so (ie he used up all/most of his Magic Pool, and the
target only needs 2's to resist).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 182
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 20:43:08 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
> On page 133 SRII, under the Restricted Use Spells, we have:
>
> "When casting an exclusive spell, the magician cannot sustain or cast any
> other spells in the same action. When sustaining an exclusive spell, the
> magician cannot cast any other spells or use another magical skill."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Making a spell lock isn't a magical skill? Then why can't mundanes do it?

> Hence the magician who uses a spell lock to keep an exclusive spell going is
> no longer sustaining the spell, and therefore no longer affected by the
> restrictions of exclusive spells.

Sure, but he can't make the spell lock in the first place. Or quicken it,
or anchor it, etc, etc.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 183
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 14:31:39 +0200
>There will be no 8 dice force 1 anything spells cast in my campaign!
>(I will see if I can post a page reference if you want one.)

I believe that _is_ possible. The maximum number of Magic Pool dice you can
add to any one test is equal to your Magic Rating, not the Force or Skill
Rating.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Beware of unfamiliar chickens
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 184
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 08:56:07 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>
writes:

Robert> Making a spell lock isn't a magical skill? Then why can't mundanes
Robert> do it?

Making the focus for a spell lock can be done by a non-mage. Most
talismongers are non-mages.

BTW, here's an answer that should settle the debate now:

Is a mage with a locked spell subject to the +2T# penalties for sustaining
a spell? No; therefore, *he* is not, technically, sustaining that spell.
Therefore, it does not count against exclusivity.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 185
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 22:37:34 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>
writes:
>
> Robert> Making a spell lock isn't a magical skill? Then why can't mundanes
> Robert> do it?
>
> Making the focus for a spell lock can be done by a non-mage. Most
> talismongers are non-mages.

Ah, but actually locking the spell?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 186
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 00:29:24 +3400
Robert Watkins writes:

> > "When casting an exclusive spell, the magician cannot sustain or cast any
> > other spells in the same action. When sustaining an exclusive spell, the
> > magician cannot cast any other spells or use another magical skill."
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Making a spell lock isn't a magical skill? Then why can't mundanes do it?

OK, it depends on what you mean by "making". Producing the focus itself,
contrary to what Rat says, is _not_ a mundane skill. Talismongering is a
mundane skill, and any non-magician can do it, but talismongering can only
allow you to make fetishes, ward materials, hermetic circle materials,
elemental conuration materials and the like. Alchemy and Artificing are the
skills (concentrations of Enchanting actually, as is Talismongering) which
are used in making foci and they _do_ require the enchanter to be magically
active (pg20 the Grimything).

If you mean making a spell lock as in the magician using a spell lock to
lock a spell into a permanent astral circuit, then yes, you are correct
Actually, you're correct in both points, a magician cannot use another
magical skill while sustaining an exclusive spell. This means he cannot use
Enchanting to make a spell lock, nor can he use Sorcery to use a spell lock.

However, the point in contention is not the above. The question was "is it
possible to do such activities if the magician has a spell locked exclusive
spell?". And the answer, as Rat has pointed out, is "yes". And this is
because the magician is no longer sustaining the spell, so he is therefore
no longer subject to the restrictions of exclusivity.

If you have an exclusive spell which is in a spell lock, then you, as the
magician who this spell lock is operating on, _can_ do everything normally.
You can cast spells, you can summon spirits, and so on. The spell lock is
keeping the spell going, not you.

> Sure, but he can't make the spell lock in the first place. Or quicken it,
> or anchor it, etc, etc.

Would you care to explain?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 187
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 17:29:01 +0200
>
> Jani Fikouras writes:
>
> > I realise that there is no official ruling explicitly stating this,
> > but OTOH there no ruling allowing it either. As I see it magicians get
> > a pretty hefty advantage with exclusive spells and I admit that my
> > desicion is pretty concervative because of that. Anyway my reasoning is
> > that even if the magician no longer "supports" the exclusive spell
> > himself he still interacts with it both mentally and "aurally" :)
>
> Well, I'd look at it like this:
>
> On page 133 SRII, under the Restricted Use Spells, we have:
>
> "When casting an exclusive spell, the magician cannot sustain or cast any
> other spells in the same action. When sustaining an exclusive spell, the
> magician cannot cast any other spells or use another magical skill."
>
> Now, under the description of Spell Lcosk, page 138 SRII, we get:
>
> "Once activated, the spell lock sustains the spell from astral space without
> any additional involvement of the spellcaster."
>
> Hence the magician who uses a spell lock to keep an exclusive spell going is
> no longer sustaining the spell,

That maybe be so, nevertheless the magician is still "in contact" with the
spell.
Lets take detect enemies for example, the lock may sustain the spell, but the
magician still interacts with the spell-entity geting information about the
people around him.
I say that if spell is exclusive then all its aspects are exclisive and not only
the "sustaining".

> and therefore no longer affected by the restrictions of exclusive spells.

*shrug*

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 188
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 14:26:34 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>
writes:

>> Making the focus for a spell lock can be done by a non-mage. Most
>> talismongers are non-mages.

Robert> Ah, but actually locking the spell?

"Locking" the spell is part of the spellcasting. Since only mages can cast
spells, the answer should be obvious: only mages can lock spells.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 189
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 12:56:46 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> > Sure, but he can't make the spell lock in the first place. Or quicken it,
> > or anchor it, etc, etc.
>
> Would you care to explain?

You said it yourself, Damion... the actual act of locking the spell (or
quickening/anchoring it) is a magical activity. And you can't perform any
other magical activity when sustaining/casting an Exclusive spell except
for the spell itself.

Therefore... you can't lock/anchor/quicken an Exclusive spell.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 190
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 13:29:22 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> That maybe be so, nevertheless the magician is still "in contact" with the
> spell. Lets take detect enemies for example, the lock may sustain the
> spell, but the magician still interacts with the spell-entity geting
> information about the people around him.
> I say that if spell is exclusive then all its aspects are exclisive and
> not only the "sustaining".

Oh, so in your game if magician A casts an exclusive Detect Enemies on
magician B, then magician B can't use any magical skill...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 191
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 16:05:07 +0200
> > That maybe be so, nevertheless the magician is still "in contact" with
the
> > spell. Lets take detect enemies for example, the lock may sustain the
> > spell, but the magician still interacts with the spell-entity geting
> > information about the people around him.
> > I say that if spell is exclusive then all its aspects are exclusive and
> > not only the "sustaining".
>
> Oh, so in your game if magician A casts an exclusive Detect Enemies on
> magician B, then magician B can't use any magical skill...

Good question, I am not even sure if detect enemies can be cast on
others. Anyway needless to say that I have never encountered a situation
like that. And besides your explanation (locking is a magical activity
in itself) makes this question redundant.
I really think that this is a geting rather academic.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 192
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 00:58:23 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> Good question, I am not even sure if detect enemies can be cast on
> others.

It can, but it didn't matter if it couldn't be, as any other sustained spell
which could be cast on another magician would have sufficed for the example.

> Anyway needless to say that I have never encountered a situation like that.

Neither have I. As a matter of fact none of my players have ever chosen
exclusive spells, so I've never even encountered _them_. So what's the
problem? :-)

> And besides your explanation (locking is a magical activity in itself)
> makes this question redundant.

That is Bobs explanation, I disagree. And I feel the rules back me up.

> I really think that this is a geting rather academic.

What argument we have isn't? <grin> But I don't think it has gone that far,
after all, it is still relevent to the "can you have a spell locked
exclusive spell and still cast other spells" question. Which could be quite
important in some cases (and to which I still think the answer in the book
is "yes").

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 193
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: questions?
Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 15:34:47 GMT
Damion Milliken writes

> > Has anyone ever bothered to learn these things at over force 1? on the oh
> > 1 dice + whole magic pool, bed will solve drain method? it will have been
> > done but is it common?
>
> It is for the magicians in my games. The only use of these spells is to
> Quicken or lock them, so why do you need them with good Force's? You're
> never going to cast it when you don't have ages of spare time to rest off
> the drain, and ages of spare time to retry when you fail. Casting such
> spells in the middle of runs is not economical, both on drain, and success
> level, not to mention the +2 modifer for sustaining the spell.
>
Anyone disagree with us?

> > [+6 Attributes]
>
> Just out-right rule that it can't be done.
>
My solution if anyone ever asks for it in my game (not happened yet).
I was more looking for other comments.

> --
> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
>
Mark
Message no. 194
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 15:14:47 -0400
Well, I was thinking over the weekend, (I was trying not to, but a couple
of thoughts got through) and I came up with two questions:

1) Is there a weapon in Shadowrun akin to a plasma rifle? (or cell gun, for
those of you who play DOOM) I was thinking of rules for such a weapon and
considering I only have SRII, I was thinking probably someone has thought up
rules for energy weapons.

2) Has anyone on the list ever used (as probably an NPC, or possibly a PC)
themselves in a game? Shadowrun is set 60 years in the future, making me,
for instance, 77. This is kind of old, even by our standards, and adding
in the changes that have come about by 2055, it's probably not likely that
I will get to that ripe old age, but it could be possible. What kind of
an NPC would you be?

Just a couple of questions for you to mull over in your mind...

>>>>> Nate
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| |
| Never underestimate the power of the Dork side. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, my opinions are the same as most of the other people here...
...At least, I think there are other people here...
Message no. 195
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 22:42:53 +0200
Hi,

Nate wrote:
> Well, I was thinking over the weekend, (I was trying not to, but a couple
> of thoughts got through) and I came up with two questions:
Yeah, I know the problem: Desperatly made up my mind to enjoy myself,
and the, SUDDENLY, there was an idea or an thought... tough luck! :-)


> 1) Is there a weapon in Shadowrun akin to a plasma rifle? (or cell gun, for
> those of you who play DOOM) I was thinking of rules for such a weapon and
> considering I only have SRII, I was thinking probably someone has thought up
> rules for energy weapons.
Not really a Plasma or Cell Gun, but 2 Laser Weapons, the Ares MP Laser and
Ares MP Laser III. The first model is described in Street Samurai Catalog,
the second -I think, but I am not sure- in Fields of Fire.

> 2) Has anyone on the list ever used (as probably an NPC, or possibly a PC)
> themselves in a game? Shadowrun is set 60 years in the future, making me,
> for instance, 77. This is kind of old, even by our standards, and adding
> in the changes that have come about by 2055, it's probably not likely that
> I will get to that ripe old age, but it could be possible. What kind of
> an NPC would you be?
A rich one, when I am still up and running, because I think to be active
enough to mess with runners the [N]PC would have taken Leo'nization, the
process that renews the bodies' cells and resets a character to a physical
age of about 21. This process is a) VERY expensive and b) costs Essence.
This would lead to a (hopefully) NPC with
-low Essence,
- no or nearly no Cyberware (Heck, you'll need your Essence somewhere else
but Cyberware!)
- very rich (how should he/she pay the costs?) and
- probably with many contacts...

Hm.. I'd call it a Fixer :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 196
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 17:13:53 -0400
Nathan Walker asks:

> 2) Has anyone on the list ever used (as probably an NPC, or possibly a PC)
> themselves in a game? Shadowrun is set 60 years in the future, making me,
> for instance, 77. This is kind of old, even by our standards, and adding
> in the changes that have come about by 2055, it's probably not likely that
> I will get to that ripe old age, but it could be possible. What kind of
> an NPC would you be?

You forget about Leonization, chummer.. Read Shadowtech. There's a process
to keep people young, if they have the nuyen to burn.

As for playing ourselves. As GM, I think it'd be pretty arrogant to bring
myself into the game, but you did give me the idea of tossing one or two
player names in as NPC's.. That oughtta shake 'em up some. Thanks! >8->


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "JESUS SAVES!
Please don't blame anyone else. | He takes half damage..." (AD&D)
Message no. 197
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 23:23:08 +0200
>1) Is there a weapon in Shadowrun akin to a plasma rifle? (or cell gun, for
>those of you who play DOOM) I was thinking of rules for such a weapon and
>considering I only have SRII, I was thinking probably someone has thought up
>rules for energy weapons.

Well, if 3G3 is accurate and/or good guesswork, a plasma gun would be akin
to "a pipe full of TNT (...) That is, you hold onto one end, and the target
of the attack holds onto the other." So maybe as a suicide weapon... :)
Not that I'm saying 3G3 is the end-all, be-all of weapons design, though :)

>2) Has anyone on the list ever used (as probably an NPC, or possibly a PC)
>themselves in a game? Shadowrun is set 60 years in the future, making me,
>for instance, 77. This is kind of old, even by our standards, and adding
>in the changes that have come about by 2055, it's probably not likely that
>I will get to that ripe old age, but it could be possible. What kind of
>an NPC would you be?

Funny you should say that... Someone I know (no names, or his mailbox will
be flooded with "Count me in"s) well (hopefully) be starting a PBEM, mostly
spurred by me saying "I once made myself in SR stats. Now all I need is a
campaign to play myself in" :) Anyway, this will be me as I am now in
Shadowrun stats, with all skills relevant to 2055 -- you know, 1995
Electronics skill would be pretty much useless, so it's simply Electronics
and we assume it's 2055 knowledge. So not _quite_ as you suggest, but close.
I wouldn't want to play an 80-year-old in 2055 (7 days to go, and then you
can make that 81-year-old... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
people who are experts at avoiding reality
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Guru :)
Message no. 198
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:05:56 -0700
On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, Nathan Walker wrote:

> What kind of an NPC would you be?

I believe I would be similar to the "Pedestrian" NPC listed on page 25 of
the Contacts book that came with the GM screen. I doubt I'm ever gonna
learn enough about computers to be a decker, I doubt I'll have enough
money to become a rigger, and as for magic, well, you all can believe
what you want about it's existance. OTOH, I can shoot a gun, I even own a
few, so maybe I'll be one of those unfortunate Metroplex guardsman the
PC's always blow away when the guards get in the way. :)

BTW, has anyone read the back cover of the Contacts book? It's pretty
damn funny. I just noticed it a few weeks ago and had a good laugh when I
did.

--
Jason Ustica * Coming to you from Lancaster,CA * Email: usticaj@****.com
Message no. 199
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 10:38:08 -0400
On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:

> As for playing ourselves. As GM, I think it'd be pretty arrogant to bring
> myself into the game, but you did give me the idea of tossing one or two
> player names in as NPC's.. That oughtta shake 'em up some. Thanks! >8->

If I was to bring myself into the campaign as an NPC, I'd make
myself some useless piece of fodder. That way the players could kill me
and get a sense of accomplishment and well-being.

Marc
Message no. 200
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 14:58:28 -0400
>You forget about Leonization, chummer.. Read Shadowtech. There's a process
>to keep people young, if they have the nuyen to burn.

I don't have shadowtech... :( ...yet. I have a list of books I want to buy
for shadowrun, tho, and that's pretty high up there...unless, of course,
someone wants to give me a copy. :)

I was just wondering if anyone had thought about it...of course, I know
one GM who would instantly put himself as an NPC in a game if he thought
about it. Of course, all his players would instantly try to kill him :)
he's just that kind of guy...

>>>>> Nate
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| D++ G++ e>++ h!>++ !r y? Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, my opinions are the same as most of the other people here...
Message no. 201
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:11:37 +0200
> If I was to bring myself into the campaign as an NPC, I'd make
>myself some useless piece of fodder. That way the players could kill me
>and get a sense of accomplishment and well-being.

Make yourself an important NPC who needs to get killed for the PCs to
achieve their goal. If they ask "What does that <insert favorite expletive
here> looks like?" give them a picture of yourself :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
tattooed everything
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t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 202
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:47:50 -0400
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>Make yourself an important NPC who needs to get killed for the PCs to
>achieve their goal. If they ask "What does that <insert favorite expletive
>here> looks like?" give them a picture of yourself :)

hehe....I like it...

Maybe you could have them kill a corp executive who just happens to be
one of the player's bosses...I would think that a good corp executive would
probably do that fountain-of-youth thing. (I forgot what it was called)
That would shake up the player pretty good, I think.... :)

As far as that 3G3 thing goes, I don't know what that is...What I was thinking
of was more along the lines of things you see in futuristic movies...guns that
fire little balls of energy that can stun, or kill, or disintegrate... :)
Maybe something akin to a star-wars type blaster, much bulkier, of course,
with probably a small (hehe) chance of the thing exploding in your hand.
The charge would move at the speed of light, and since it's energy, there
would be no gravity on it (I think...correct me if I'm wrong) so it would
be very, very accurate, but OTOH, it would probably have to lose power over
distance, to maintain play balance...

Still, would be a nasty weapon...

>>>>> Nate

Wow...this letter got really long in a hurry....maybe I'm the energizer bunny
in disguise...still typing...nothing outlasts the energizer...it keeps going...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| |
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| D++ G++ e>++ h!>++ !r y? Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, my opinions are the same as most of the other people here...
Message no. 203
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:06:08 +0200
>As far as that 3G3 thing goes, I don't know what that is...

3G3 is a weapon design system for any RPG (or so the back of the book says).
Because SR weapon stats don't follow any logical patterns, not to mention
they're not based on any calculations whatsoever, it's as good as impossible
to construct a set of accurate conversions from 3G3 to Shadowrun. I did make
one though :)

>What I was thinking
>of was more along the lines of things you see in futuristic movies...guns that
>fire little balls of energy that can stun, or kill, or disintegrate... :)

I'd say a particle weapon would nearly always use a beam, due to the high
speed of the particles. If you want a "ball" you'd have to shut down the
firing circuits _real_ fast...

>Maybe something akin to a star-wars type blaster, much bulkier, of course,

Oh, you mean either a Mauser pistol or an L2A3 submachinegun, but with knobs
on? :)

>with probably a small (hehe) chance of the thing exploding in your hand.
>The charge would move at the speed of light, and since it's energy, there
>would be no gravity on it (I think...correct me if I'm wrong) so it would
>be very, very accurate, but OTOH, it would probably have to lose power over
>distance, to maintain play balance...

Not only gravity wouldn't affect the aim, also movement -- because the
weapon hits the spot you're pointing at, you don't have to aim in front of a
moving target to hit it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
tattooed everything
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 204
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 14:59:49 -0400
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>>What I was thinking
>>of was more along the lines of things you see in futuristic movies...guns that
>>fire little balls of energy that can stun, or kill, or disintegrate... :)
>
>I'd say a particle weapon would nearly always use a beam, due to the high
>speed of the particles. If you want a "ball" you'd have to shut down the
>firing circuits _real_ fast...

Yeah, it's just that little tiny balls of energy are so much cooler than
a beam thing. :) You're right, tho...

>>Maybe something akin to a star-wars type blaster, much bulkier, of course,
>
>Oh, you mean either a Mauser pistol or an L2A3 submachinegun, but with knobs
>on? :)

I think so....I don't know what those are, but they sound right. If anyone
saw Demolition Man (Given the multicultural nature of this list, I'm not
sure if most people did, but...) the "bad guy" in the movie had a SMG-type
weapon that fired a small beam...did alot of damage, but the problem was it
was two and a half minutes before you could fire again...

>>with probably a small (hehe) chance of the thing exploding in your hand.
>>The charge would move at the speed of light, and since it's energy, there
>>would be no gravity on it (I think...correct me if I'm wrong) so it would
>>be very, very accurate, but OTOH, it would probably have to lose power over
>>distance, to maintain play balance...
>
>Not only gravity wouldn't affect the aim, also movement -- because the
>weapon hits the spot you're pointing at, you don't have to aim in front of a
>moving target to hit it.

Makes it a very nasty weapon, IMHO. So who's writing up stats for this thing?
ME? I did kind of think it up, didn't I...


SOME-WEAPONS-COMPANY ZAPPER (Don't like it? Think up a better one...)
A Prototype energy weapon which uses special Uranium pellets to spit
out a deadly bolt of energy which is extremely accurate, but has the minor
disadvantage of losing power over longer ranges. This version has been
reported to backfire occasionally, causing a chain reaction which fuses
most matter in the nearby area.

Stats:
Type Conceal Ammo Mode Damage Weight Cost
SR Sure... 10(c) SS 14S 10 10,000nY

Damage for this weapon is special. The damage code above is for short range.
It uses the ranges for the Sporting rifle, but loses 2 from the power rating
every range beyond long and goes down one damage code at long range. So it
would have a code of 12S at medium range, and a code of 10M at long range.
Every time this weapon is fired, roll 2D6 and add the number of Combat turns
previous to this one that the weapon was fired. If the number is above 14,
then the weapon will explode, doing 18D damage. This is to reflect the
chance for misfires and the experimental nature of the weapon. This weapon
ignores the modifier for target running.

Hmmmm....looks like the prototype for a munchkin weapon....here's an idea...
give it to your favorite munchkin, and then when he starts to use it, do some
of that creative die rolling discussed earlier..."I fire my Zapper." "The
Zapper makes a funny noise and then explodes...the next thing you see is....
God...." :)

What does everyone think?

>>>>>> Nate
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| |
| Geek Code(v3.0): GCS d- H s:-(+:-) a-->? C++++ U->++++ P+>++++ L>++ |
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| D++ G++ e>++ h!>++ !r y? Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, my opinions are the same as most of the other people here...
Message no. 205
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:16:47 +0200
>>>Maybe something akin to a star-wars type blaster, much bulkier, of course,
>>
>>Oh, you mean either a Mauser pistol or an L2A3 submachinegun, but with knobs
>>on? :)
>
>I think so....I don't know what those are, but they sound right.

Well, in the Star Wars movies, Han Solo is armed with a Mauser M1896 (I
think that's the correct model) pistol with some sort of flash suppressor on
the muzzle, while all Stormtroopers carry British L2A3 SMGs with the stock
folded, magazine opening closed off, some sort of telescope on top of the
gun, and a few bits and pieces attached to the sleeve around the barrel...
What I was trying to say is that they are _real_world_ weapons with a few
bits of plastic stuck on :)

>If anyone
>saw Demolition Man (Given the multicultural nature of this list, I'm not
>sure if most people did, but...) the "bad guy" in the movie had a SMG-type
>weapon that fired a small beam...did alot of damage, but the problem was it
>was two and a half minutes before you could fire again...

That was actually a Heckler & Koch G11 assault rifle... (or a model of it :)

Anyway, movie history lesson is over for today :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
tattooed everything
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 206
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 03:38:00 EST
>It uses the ranges for the Sporting rifle, but loses 2 from the power rating
>every range beyond long and goes down one damage code at long range. So it
>would have a code of 12S at medium range, and a code of 10M at long range.
>Every time this weapon is fired, roll 2D6 and add the number of Combat turns
>previous to this one that the weapon was fired. If the number is above 14,
>then the weapon will explode, doing 18D damage. This is to reflect the
>chance for misfires and the experimental nature of the weapon. This weapon
>ignores the modifier for target running.
>
>Hmmmm....looks like the prototype for a munchkin weapon....here's an idea...
>give it to your favorite munchkin, and then when he starts to use it, do some
>of that creative die rolling discussed earlier..."I fire my Zapper."
"The
>Zapper makes a funny noise and then explodes...the next thing you see is....
>God...." :)
>
>What does everyone think?
Munchkin? Yes. All I have to say is that any character with a platelet
factory could survive the 18D explosion only taking 9 boxes of damage. Oh I
am assuming that you are using second edition staging rules for 18D2 what
would the damage of the weapon and the backfire be under SRI rules? Just
curious. :)
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 207
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:37:02 -0400
>>>>> "Gurth" == Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

Gurth> Anyway, movie history lesson is over for today :)

My turn!

Robocop's "chaingun" is a Beretta 93R, stock detached, forward grip
folded, and some stuff welded on to make it look neat.

Judge Dredd's Lawgiver Mk.II (US movie) is another Beretta (I forget the
model) with stuff welded on.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ of skin.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 208
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:31:28 -0400
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
>Munchkin? Yes. All I have to say is that any character with a platelet
>factory could survive the 18D explosion only taking 9 boxes of damage. Oh I
>am assuming that you are using second edition staging rules for 18D2 what
>would the damage of the weapon and the backfire be under SRI rules? Just
>curious. :)

hehehehehe....I have fooled everyone into thinking that I know what I'm talking
about! I have only the book for SRII, and I was just kind of thinking out
loud. I really only thought up the idea for the weapon and was just trying
to give it a rough sketch, I wasn't trying to put it in concrete...I have
very little understanding of what you said, actually I have only a limited
understanding of what _I_ wrote. :)

If someone thinks this is a good idea for a weapon, they should write it
themselves. (And send me a copy!)

>>>>> Nate
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
|Actually, my opinions are the same as most of the other people here...|
| |
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Message no. 209
From: Ian Smith <KildTheCat@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 01:03:48 -0400
>>>> As for playing ourselves. As GM, I think it'd be pretty arrogant to
bring
> myself into the game, but you did give me the idea of tossing one or two
> player names in as NPC's.. That oughtta shake 'em up some. Thanks! >8->
<<<<

I have what I think to be an interesting event that happened once upon a time
back when I GMed Shadowrun . . . One of the players was soon to use his
shotgun against his fleeing foe, even though there were innocent bystandards
in-between. I hinted to him that he *may* not want to do that, and he took
that advice. After the chase was resolved, he learned, much to his shock,
that one of the innocent bystandards was the player in 60 years! I know this
was a bit heavy-handed on the moral law, and on the deux-es-machina, but he
and I both had a lot of fun with it. . . This player turned out to be a
janitor in 2050. :)
Message no. 210
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:24:35 GMT
> My turn!
> Robocop's "chaingun" is a Beretta 93R, stock detached, forward grip
> folded, and some stuff welded on to make it look neat.
> Judge Dredd's Lawgiver Mk.II (US movie) is another Beretta (I forget the
> model) with stuff welded on.

The assault rifles in Total Recall are Ruger Mini-14s in aftermarket
bullpup stocks: the SMGs are Ingram M-11s dressed up with full-size
handguards, although Richter uses a straight M-11 and his grey-haired
tech has an Armaloyed Mini-Uzi. The pistols are Claridge Hi-Tec C-9s.
A few "stock" MP-5s appear as well, as does at least one Calico 950.

Most of those are easy, but the rifles confused me seemingly forever...

And we all know that in Aliens, the M41 pulse rifle is a Thompson SMG
with a Franchi SPAS (not the 12, a more compact version) underneath,
the flamethrowers are modified M-16s, the heavy weapons are MG42s on
Tyler mounts and the standard pistol is the Heckler and Koch VP70...

<Sounds of Paul being dragged from the keyboard while still in frothing
gun-nut flow...>

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 211
From: "Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 17:55:47 -0700
*-------------------------------------------*
|Stephen M. Bugge|<bugge@********.edu> |
|President, |<buug@***.com> |
|College GOP @ SU|<75764.240@**********.com>|
*-------------------------------------------*


On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, Nathan Walker wrote:

> Well, I was thinking over the weekend, (I was trying not to, but a couple
> of thoughts got through) and I came up with two questions:
>
> 1) Is there a weapon in Shadowrun akin to a plasma rifle? (or cell gun, for
> those of you who play DOOM) I was thinking of rules for such a weapon and
> considering I only have SRII, I was thinking probably someone has thought up
> rules for energy weapons.

Well if you count lasers as energy there are a couple, one in The Street
Sam Catalogue, and the other two in Fields of Fire. As for a plasma
rifle? Sounds difficult to make, It would definitely require a large
energy source, heat shielding for the wielder, and some kind of magnetic
containment and propulsion. <however for those of us do don't insist that
sringently on the laws of physics as a qualifier for weapons that sound
cool, I say go for it >

> 2) Has anyone on the list ever used (as probably an NPC, or possibly a PC)
> themselves in a game? Shadowrun is set 60 years in the future, making me,
> for instance, 77. This is kind of old, even by our standards, and adding
> in the changes that have come about by 2055, it's probably not likely that
> I will get to that ripe old age, but it could be possible. What kind of
> an NPC would you be?

This one is easy, I'd be a politician <Sen Bugge what do you suggest we do
about the growing problem of Shadowrunners?
<Well obviously something needs to be done, my staff and I will be
visiting the carribean league to further research possible solutions to
this problem, expect a favorable report during the next election ;)

> >
Just a couple of questions for you to mull over in your mind... >
> >>>>> Nate
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> | NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
> | |
> | Geek Code: GCS d- H s:-(+:-) a-->? C++++ U->++++ P+>++++ L>++ E--- |
> | W+ N? K? W--- O? M-- V+>- PS Y+ PGP? t+++(-) 5++ X+ R++ tv+ DI? D++ |
> | G++ e>++ h!>++ !r y? Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
> | |
> | Never underestimate the power of the Dork side. |
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, my opinions are the same as most of the other people here...
> ...At least, I think there are other people here...
Message no. 212
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 00:26:36 +1000
Nathan Walker writes:

> SOME-WEAPONS-COMPANY ZAPPER (Don't like it? Think up a better one...)

Well, just as a weapon out of nowhere, I don't think something like this is
too wise or warranted. If it forms the basis of a run, and has a good
background behind it, with perhaps a bit of explanation to the workings,
then it would be better. Personally I doubt something this technologically
advanced would be possible in SR however, so perhaps a different mechanism
to power it would be more appropriate. Do a bit of research into high energy
physics, and see what you can come up with. Then impliment it into an R&D
project, and from there to a shadowrun.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
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Message no. 213
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 12:34:56 -0400
On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Stephen M. Bugge wrote:

> > 1) Is there a weapon in Shadowrun akin to a plasma rifle? (or cell gun, for
> > those of you who play DOOM) I was thinking of rules for such a weapon and
> > considering I only have SRII, I was thinking probably someone has thought up
> > rules for energy weapons.

There is, kind of. It was in one of the Ka-Ge's. They called it Plasma
Shock(probably not the kind of plasma you were thinking about). There is
a Assault Cannon, Rifle and Heavy pistol version. They are quite costly,
but also quite effective. If anybody is interested, I could probably post
these on the list, since kage is no defunct.

> > 2) Has anyone on the list ever used (as probably an NPC, or possibly a PC)
> > themselves in a game? Shadowrun is set 60 years in the future, making me,
> > for instance, 77. This is kind of old, even by our standards, and adding
> > in the changes that have come about by 2055, it's probably not likely that
> > I will get to that ripe old age, but it could be possible. What kind of
> > an NPC would you be?
>
Thought about it, then considering I live in Montreal(and not likely
to move in any foreseeable future) and that I'd be 82, I'd probably make
a very good grass fertilizer. Or, if I hit the cash pot, maybe
leonization'd keep me in shape. Then I'd probably be either a corporate
Scientist(AI mostly) or an underground decker(probably more to the tune
of helping the young ones, but still).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 214
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:40:36 -0700
>On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Stephen M. Bugge wrote:
2) Has anyone on the list ever used (as probably an NPC, or possibly a PC)
>themselves in a game? Shadowrun is set 60 years in the future, making me,
> for instance, 77. This is kind of old, even by our standards, and adding
>in the changes that have come about by 2055, it's probably not likely that
>I will get to that ripe old age, but it could be possible. What kind of
> an NPC would you be?
>--------------
Actually, I did this in my game. I did not bring back myself (:I figured at
the age of 85 I would be traveling the world as a snowbird, yes! :) but
instead several of the players.One was a Corp VP for Ares Arms (via
leonization, he was 98), another was a fixer/mage, one worked with
Echo-mirage and was part of the Denver data haven community (one of the
shadowy children, she was a long-lived elf), one lived in Chiba and designed
cutting edge cybertech, and the last was a street bum. The group found it
facinating to see what i projected them at 60 yrs in the future.

Thanks for watching $)
Brian.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Essence: It is a descending stream of pure activity which is the dynamic
force of the universe.
-Kabbalah (B.C.E.~1200-~700 A.C.E.)
*****************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet": bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
or brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************
Message no. 215
From: DarkAngelI@******.com
Subject: Questions!
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:57:11 -0800
I've tried posting this three times now, but to no avail...Here goes again!
A few interesting questions:
1) Do quickened spells count as focuses when determining the maximum number
allowable from your intelligence rating? Spell Locks do count as so, but
quickening has no physical presence, its just a link to astral space.
2) Can you use enchanting from a skillsoft? Yes it is a magic skill, but
mundanes can perform enchanting as well. It is also completely theory.
3) Also, does quickening count as points toward focus addiction? And if so,
how many?
4) How do you award karma to "followers"? And if you form a magical group
and gain "followers" how do you determine when they become initiates? Our GM
now, wants us to make them just like characters, but previously they had just
been archetypes.
5) Our GM wants us to change APDS ammo, considering that it is a bit poerful.
Instead of 1/2 ballistic armor only, he says 1/2 ballistic and -1 Damage
Level. This also means for vehicles, a -2 for Damage Level. The question is,
does this sound like a logical rule? As far as I know, APDS will penetrate
easier, but does give up some of its lethality for that ability.
6) Does the rule from SRII that decking with "chipped" Computer skills does
not provide a Hacking pool, still apply? (I haven't gotten VR2.0 yet.)
7) When purchasing a facility, does that include just the equipment, or a
building to go along with it? And if it doesn't have a building to go with
it, what do you think would be a going rate for a building?
8) When firing a chaff round to deter a particularly unpleasant experience
with a missle, how does one determine whether or not the missle breaks off
from the vehicle to go after the chaff or not?
9) Has anyone heard anything about a possible new Rigger book? The Black Book
is so far past lame we've taken to creating our own. (Just please don't tell
me their going to do the same thing they did with the Street Samurai
Catalog!)

(Looking for as many responses as possible, and please offer a little more
than "yes" or "no". Try to back up your answers with FASA materials,
it helps
a lot.)
Thank you,
The Dark Angel
Message no. 216
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Questions!
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:45:03 +0100
DarkAngelI@******.com said on 19 Jan 96...

> 1) Do quickened spells count as focuses when determining the maximum number
> allowable from your intelligence rating? Spell Locks do count as so, but
> quickening has no physical presence, its just a link to astral space.

I don't think so, but every time this sort of thing comes up OI find that
I've forgotten the answers given last time :(

> 2) Can you use enchanting from a skillsoft? Yes it is a magic skill, but
> mundanes can perform enchanting as well. It is also completely theory.

I wouldn't allow it. Magical skills cannot be "caught" in a skillsoft,
says FASA, so I think enchanting is out. It might be a lot of theory, but
it also includes putting the item being enchanted in touch with the magic,
so some magical ability would be needed. Mundanes can only create
fetishes, I believe, not foci.

> 3) Also, does quickening count as points toward focus addiction? And if so,
> how many?

Probably not, else FASA would have said IMO.

> 4) How do you award karma to "followers"? And if you form a magical group
> and gain "followers" how do you determine when they become initiates? Our
GM
> now, wants us to make them just like characters, but previously they had just
> been archetypes.

Make them characters and award them Karma just like PCs. Just don't give
them as much, and only for the bits of the adventure they participated in.
That way the PCs will increase their abilities faster than the followers,
but the followers won't stay behind too far.
Or just fake the whole lot and say "Well, Joe Follower now has Firearms
skill 6 instead of 5" :)

> 5) Our GM wants us to change APDS ammo, considering that it is a bit poerful.
> Instead of 1/2 ballistic armor only, he says 1/2 ballistic and -1 Damage
> Level. This also means for vehicles, a -2 for Damage Level. The question is,
> does this sound like a logical rule? As far as I know, APDS will penetrate
> easier, but does give up some of its lethality for that ability.

It sounds OK, but APDS isn't by far the most lethal ammo out there, at
least if you use a lot of the net.material like I do...

> 6) Does the rule from SRII that decking with "chipped" Computer skills does
> not provide a Hacking pool, still apply? (I haven't gotten VR2.0 yet.)

I think so. But as long as you don't have VR2, why not stick with the old
rules as written?

> 7) When purchasing a facility, does that include just the equipment, or a
> building to go along with it? And if it doesn't have a building to go with
> it, what do you think would be a going rate for a building?

I'd say you have a building together with your facility.

> 8) When firing a chaff round to deter a particularly unpleasant experience
> with a missle, how does one determine whether or not the missle breaks off
> from the vehicle to go after the chaff or not?

How about this: Make an Intelligence test for the missile against a TN =
"signature" of the chaff (the higher the sig, the more it costs of course
:) If it achieves no successes, it goes after the chaff.

> 9) Has anyone heard anything about a possible new Rigger book? The Black Book
> is so far past lame we've taken to creating our own. (Just please don't tell
> me their going to do the same thing they did with the Street Samurai
> Catalog!)

FASA appears to want to publish an RBB2 by the end of this year, or early
next year. My bet is that all it will do is give more vehicles and a few
new rules, not a complete overhaul of the rules system.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So wasteful. So foolish.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 217
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Questions!
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:38:07 GMT
Gurth writes

> DarkAngelI@******.com said on 19 Jan 96...
>
This is going to get long! - trimmed as possible.

> > 1) Do quickened spells count as focuses when determining the maximum number
> > allowable from your intelligence rating? Spell Locks do count as so, but
> > quickening has no physical presence, its just a link to astral space.
>
> I don't think so, but every time this sort of thing comes up OI find that
> I've forgotten the answers given last time :(
>
well FASA don't explicitly say.
Quickening is not a focus so i say it does not count, note though
that unmasked quickening is writing 'hey i'm initiate' all over the
astral.
Anchoring likewise, its also not really controlled by you anymore
once set up.

> > 2) Can you use enchanting from a skillsoft? Yes it is a magic skill, but
> > mundanes can perform enchanting as well. It is also completely theory.
>
> I wouldn't allow it. Magical skills cannot be "caught" in a skillsoft,
> says FASA, so I think enchanting is out. It might be a lot of theory, but
> it also includes putting the item being enchanted in touch with the magic,
> so some magical ability would be needed. Mundanes can only create
> fetishes, I believe, not foci.
>
I would say you can to talismongering and the like that mundanes are
allowed to do anyway, but as soon as you try to do anything involving
karma i think you need to be magically active, which implies
active magical use of the skill and that you cannot skillsoft.

3) agree with Gurth.

> > 4) How do you award karma to "followers"? And if you form a magical
group
> > and gain "followers" how do you determine when they become initiates?
Our GM
> > now, wants us to make them just like characters, but previously they had just
> > been archetypes.
>
> Make them characters and award them Karma just like PCs. Just don't give
> them as much, and only for the bits of the adventure they participated in.
> That way the PCs will increase their abilities faster than the followers,
> but the followers won't stay behind too far.
> Or just fake the whole lot and say "Well, Joe Follower now has Firearms
> skill 6 instead of 5" :)
>
The three points for the magical group is easy to let them have. Well
Gm's discretion from there, a background karma rate of say 1/3 of the
PC's probably might do it, its amazing just how big a difference in
karma totals you can have in a group and everyone still pull their
wieght ok. Some of the archtypes, eg bodyguard will hold thier own
near 100 karma PC's unless you tool until they need karma pool,
though obviously they are either well behind on skills or rounding
out. Magicians depend on initiative and spell lists. I wouldn't let
followers initiate too much unless you fancy PC's with serious ritual
magic capability.

> > 7) When purchasing a facility, does that include just the equipment, or a
> > building to go along with it? And if it doesn't have a building to go with
> > it, what do you think would be a going rate for a building?
>
> I'd say you have a building together with your facility.
>
up to you, generally i'm used to solving rigger by allowing middle
life style + wherehouse (small) for the cars, drones, workshops for
high lifestyle costs. Considering the fraction of that per month
compared to facility costs you could let folks have the building for
free with it if it only contains that facility easily enough.

Mark
Message no. 218
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions!
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:30:10 -0600 (CST)
DarkAngelI@******.com wrote:
> 9) Has anyone heard anything about a possible new Rigger book? The Black Book
> is so far past lame we've taken to creating our own. (Just please don't tell
> me their going to do the same thing they did with the Street Samurai
> Catalog!)

According to them at GenCon, Tom Dowd is working on it with a guy named
Tom Peters. New rules for riggers, more drones, cranial riggerdecks and
vehicle upgrade rules (and maybe even vehicle desgin rules).

--
Rick Jones Usenet is a way of being annoyed by people you
rick@******.com otherwise never would have met.
Meyrick@***.com -- John J. Kinyon
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/
Message no. 219
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Questions!
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 11:54:54 -0600
At 01:56 AM 1/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I've tried posting this three times now, but to no avail...Here goes again!
>A few interesting questions:
>1) Do quickened spells count as focuses when determining the maximum number
>allowable from your intelligence rating? Spell Locks do count as so, but
>quickening has no physical presence, its just a link to astral space.

no I don't think so...

>2) Can you use enchanting from a skillsoft? Yes it is a magic skill, but
>mundanes can perform enchanting as well. It is also completely theory.

yes, for all but any magical aplication parts...

>3) Also, does quickening count as points toward focus addiction? And if so,
>how many?

hmmm I don't think so since quickened spells are not quite on the same level
as focusses...

>4) How do you award karma to "followers"? And if you form a magical group
>and gain "followers" how do you determine when they become initiates? Our GM
>now, wants us to make them just like characters, but previously they had just
>been archetypes.

the rules say they are just archtypes, but I belive they gain karma and
experience just like any other character...


>5) Our GM wants us to change APDS ammo, considering that it is a bit poerful.
>Instead of 1/2 ballistic armor only, he says 1/2 ballistic and -1 Damage
>Level. This also means for vehicles, a -2 for Damage Level. The question is,
>does this sound like a logical rule? As far as I know, APDS will penetrate
>easier, but does give up some of its lethality for that ability.

GM call I guess, I really can't answer it, if it is upsetting the balance of
the game (dam I guess I had to use that fraze..) he should modify it...

>6) Does the rule from SRII that decking with "chipped" Computer skills does
>not provide a Hacking pool, still apply? (I haven't gotten VR2.0 yet.)

couldn't tell ya, not familar with it...

>7) When purchasing a facility, does that include just the equipment, or a
>building to go along with it? And if it doesn't have a building to go with
>it, what do you think would be a going rate for a building?

just the equipment... as for a building I would make it cost the same as the
lifestyle divided by 2 (no people living there...food costs clothes etc.)
you want it set in ie high, medium, low, or just sitting in the middle of
the street...

>8) When firing a chaff round to deter a particularly unpleasant experience
>with a missle, how does one determine whether or not the missle breaks off
>from the vehicle to go after the chaff or not?

I'll take a pass on this one... anyone?

>9) Has anyone heard anything about a possible new Rigger book? The Black Book
>is so far past lame we've taken to creating our own. (Just please don't tell
>me their going to do the same thing they did with the Street Samurai
>Catalog!)

umm I am not sure, I know they have another one in the works, but I am not
sure if it is just an update or an update and a lot of new material...

******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
or if that doesn't work
Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu
Message no. 220
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Questions!
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:31:40 GMT
> I've tried posting this three times now, but to no avail...Here goes again!
> A few interesting questions:
> 2) Can you use enchanting from a skillsoft? Yes it is a magic skill, but
> mundanes can perform enchanting as well. It is also completely theory.

I'd say 'no'. Enchanting is a magical process and I don't let anything
magical (except maybe Magic Theory for mundanes) be run off a skillchip.
You could use it as a 'knowledge' skill, but not to create magical
items.

> 5) Our GM wants us to change APDS ammo, considering that it is a bit poerful.
> Instead of 1/2 ballistic armor only, he says 1/2 ballistic and -1 Damage
> Level. This also means for vehicles, a -2 for Damage Level. The question is,
> does this sound like a logical rule? As far as I know, APDS will penetrate
> easier, but does give up some of its lethality for that ability.

Sounds about right if he wants to downplay its lethality. If he does that,
I'd suggest reducing the availability of it to make it easier to come
by: if it's less effective, there will be more of it around.

> 7) When purchasing a facility, does that include just the equipment, or a
> building to go along with it? And if it doesn't have a building to go with
> it, what do you think would be a going rate for a building?

I'd say a facility would include a very basic building. You'd have to pay
extra for living quarters appended, for any sensible office space, to
put it in a better area... discuss with your GM. I'd say Y10,000 for a
very basic living space, up to maybe Y50,000 for a decent-size apartment
above the garage, as a rough idea.

> 8) When firing a chaff round to deter a particularly unpleasant experience
> with a missle, how does one determine whether or not the missle breaks off
> from the vehicle to go after the chaff or not?

I'd decide a rating for the chaff (depending on how much you paid for
it among other things) then roll the missile's intelligence against that,
maybe modified by the vehicle's ECM (add half the ECM to the chaff rating,
subtract half the firer's ECCM, is an idea offhand). No successes: missile
chases the chaff. Chaff's a house rule, and normally subsumed into ECM/
ECCM.

> 9) Has anyone heard anything about a possible new Rigger book? The Black Book
> is so far past lame we've taken to creating our own. (Just please don't tell
> me their going to do the same thing they did with the Street Samurai
> Catalog!)

Might be out late this year or early next, according to rumour.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 221
From: allone12@****.netvision.net.il
Subject: questions
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 22:29:46 PDT
i am a new member in this mailing list and
a israeli shadowruner. since we dont have
any sourcebooks in israel, i have a quesion
- what are bioware?how do they
function?what is body cost?
but the way-how much should a helicorpter
with:handeling 5,body 6,armor 4,pilot
2,signitour 2,speed 50/150,3 hardpoints and 3 firm points?

p.s. thanks gurth for the letter :-)
Message no. 222
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:39:52 +0100 (BST)
|
|
|i am a new member in this mailing list and
|a israeli shadowruner. since we dont have
|any sourcebooks in israel, i have a quesion
|- what are bioware?how do they
|function?what is body cost?

Bioware is Genetically engineered additions such as new glands and toxin
filters added to the liver/kidneys.
There is a wide range of them.
Instead of costing Essence, the bioware creates a new Stat called the Body
Index. This is limited by your body attribute.
If your Body Index ever exceeds your Body, you go into system shock until
some of the bioware is removed and the index returns to below your Body.

Magically active people, do, however, still lose essence.
(Much to the disaggreement of a lot of people on this list.)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
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|Comp Sci & Visual Arts |public, and the many members of parlaiment who have |
|-----------------------|so kindly rung in to complain,we would like to admit|
| that this is an outragious and contemptable untruth perpatrated by us, to |
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Message no. 223
From: allone12@****.netvision.net.il
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 05:25:01 PDT
can someone send me the basic costs of
installing hard and firmpoint in a
vehicels?(in helicopters only if there is
a diffrence);-);-)
Message no. 224
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 21:52:59 +0200
At 14:25 Uhr 9.05.96, allone12@****.netvision.net.il wrote:
>can someone send me the basic costs of
>installing hard and firmpoint in a
>vehicels?(in helicopters only if there is
>a diffrence);-);-)

Firmpoints (mounts normal weapons up to LMG) give 1 pt of recoil
compensation, have a fixed arc-of-fire (forward or rear normally) and
cost 750Y.

Hardpoints may mount any weapon. Each weapon is at HALF recoil.
Fixed mount: Weapon can swifel about 5 degrees. Cost :
Singe Center mount - 1000Y
Dual center-mount: 1750Y
Wing/Fairing mounts: 750Y each
There are also turrets, but explaining them would take too long.

Helicopters may mount 1 CF(unit of load) worth of missiles (about 1)
for each FIRMpoint.

Hope that helps.
Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 225
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:39:20 -0600 (MDT)
|Firmpoints (mounts normal weapons up to LMG) give 1 pt of recoil
|compensation,
|
|Hardpoints may mount any weapon. Each weapon is at HALF recoil.

Which brings up a bitch of mine. I've always felt that the recoil
compensation gained from Firmpoints and Hardpoints were bogus. I think
that the recoil gained should be based on the body of the vehicle that
the weapon is mounted on.

If you mount a HMG on a motorbike the recoil will probably have an
effect. But if you mount a HMG on a tank you aren't going to have any
recoil problems at all. Why? Because the recoil from the HMG is not
enough to offset the mass of the tank.

But in SRII if you mount a HMG on a firmpoint on a heavy vehicle you only
get 1 point of recoil compensation. Even though there is no way that the
vehicle is going to budge when firing the HMG.

How about if you allow a weapon mount to provide recoil compensation equal
to twice the body of the vehicle? (or maybe three times the body?) No
matter what kind of point it's on.

Comments?

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 226
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 15:48:21 -0500
At 02:39 PM 5/8/96 -0600, you wrote:
>|Firmpoints (mounts normal weapons up to LMG) give 1 pt of recoil
>|compensation,
>|
>|Hardpoints may mount any weapon. Each weapon is at HALF recoil.
>
>Which brings up a bitch of mine. I've always felt that the recoil
>compensation gained from Firmpoints and Hardpoints were bogus. I think
>that the recoil gained should be based on the body of the vehicle that
>the weapon is mounted on.
>
>If you mount a HMG on a motorbike the recoil will probably have an
>effect. But if you mount a HMG on a tank you aren't going to have any
>recoil problems at all. Why? Because the recoil from the HMG is not
>enough to offset the mass of the tank.
>
>But in SRII if you mount a HMG on a firmpoint on a heavy vehicle you only
>get 1 point of recoil compensation. Even though there is no way that the
>vehicle is going to budge when firing the HMG.
>
>How about if you allow a weapon mount to provide recoil compensation equal
>to twice the body of the vehicle? (or maybe three times the body?) No
>matter what kind of point it's on.
>
>Comments?
>
>-David

it is not necessarily the vehicle it is mounted on, it is the casing around
the weapon, sure the tank wouldn't move but the weapon mounted would be
bouncing all over the place, plus it they didn't alow it to move it would
rip free of it's moorings...
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g192/thom0767/index.html
Message no. 227
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:28:38 -0600
On 5/8/96, Justin wrote:

>At 02:39 PM 5/8/96 -0600, David wrote:

>>|Firmpoints (mounts normal weapons up to LMG) give 1 pt of recoil
>>|compensation,
>>|
>>|Hardpoints may mount any weapon. Each weapon is at HALF recoil.
>>
>>Which brings up a bitch of mine. I've always felt that the recoil
>>compensation gained from Firmpoints and Hardpoints were bogus. I think
>>that the recoil gained should be based on the body of the vehicle that
>>the weapon is mounted on.
>>
>>If you mount a HMG on a motorbike the recoil will probably have an
>>effect. But if you mount a HMG on a tank you aren't going to have any
>>recoil problems at all. Why? Because the recoil from the HMG is not
>>enough to offset the mass of the tank.
>>
>>But in SRII if you mount a HMG on a firmpoint on a heavy vehicle you only
>>get 1 point of recoil compensation. Even though there is no way that the
>>vehicle is going to budge when firing the HMG.
>>
>>How about if you allow a weapon mount to provide recoil compensation equal
>>to twice the body of the vehicle? (or maybe three times the body?) No
>>matter what kind of point it's on.
>>
>>Comments?
>>
>>-David
>
>it is not necessarily the vehicle it is mounted on, it is the casing around
>the weapon, sure the tank wouldn't move but the weapon mounted would be
>bouncing all over the place, plus it they didn't alow it to move it would
>rip free of it's moorings...


Let's take this to the next logical step. (in the opposite direction)

How would the recoil of say a HMG effect the handling of a motorcycle? I
don't have my books handy, but just to get the discussion going, lets say
that the difference between the vehicles body and 1/2 the recoil modifier
is used to modify the handling test.

Does this seem reasonable?

Piatro
Message no. 228
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:12:58 +0100
Peter said on 0:28/ 9 May 96...

> How would the recoil of say a HMG effect the handling of a motorcycle? I
> don't have my books handy, but just to get the discussion going, lets say
> that the difference between the vehicles body and 1/2 the recoil modifier
> is used to modify the handling test.

The rules from the RBB are that you make a skill test, in which you add
the recoil to the Handling, but only if the weapon fires to the side. On
an air cushion vehicle, double the recoil, and triple it on a regular
watercraft. Although not said in so many words, this also applies if the
mount is forward firing, but is not on the vehicle's centerline.

I think that factoring in the vehicle's Body somewhere would be a good
idea, that way it's a lot harder to use a weapon from a motorcycle than it
is from a Banshee. I'm thinking of simply giving recoil compensation equal
to the vehicle's Body and leave it at that.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"They" can do anything they want.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 229
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 08:09:09 -0600 (MDT)
Justin Thomas wrote:
|
|At 02:39 PM 5/8/96 -0600, you wrote:
|>|Firmpoints (mounts normal weapons up to LMG) give 1 pt of recoil
|>|compensation,
|>|
|>|Hardpoints may mount any weapon. Each weapon is at HALF recoil.
|>
|>Which brings up a bitch of mine. I've always felt that the recoil
|>compensation gained from Firmpoints and Hardpoints were bogus. I think
|>that the recoil gained should be based on the body of the vehicle that
|>the weapon is mounted on.
[snip]Me ranting.
|
|it is not necessarily the vehicle it is mounted on, it is the casing around
|the weapon, sure the tank wouldn't move but the weapon mounted would be
|bouncing all over the place, plus it they didn't alow it to move it would
|rip free of it's moorings...

Okay, I'll agree that if you strap down something like a HMG to a large
imovable object to the point that it won't budge at all that you would
probably do some serious damage to the weapon when you fired it. But, I
think that the mass of the vehicle should be used to figure recoil
compensation, not the type of mount. Or maybe in addition to the type of
mount. The vehicle compensates for recoil equal to it's body and firmpoints
provide an additional plus one, and hardpoints halve the final recoil.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 230
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:48:53 GMT
In message <2.2.32.19960508204821.0071f38c@********.email.umn.edu> Justin Thomas
writes:
> it is not necessarily the vehicle it is mounted on, it is the casing around
> the weapon, sure the tank wouldn't move but the weapon mounted would be
> bouncing all over the place, plus it they didn't alow it to move it would
> rip free of it's moorings...

So make strong moorings :)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude
towards him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem.
For better or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." R. A. Lafferty

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 231
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:49:34 GMT
In message <9605082039.AA19011@******> dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer) writes:
> If you mount a HMG on a motorbike the recoil will probably have an
> effect. But if you mount a HMG on a tank you aren't going to have any
> recoil problems at all. Why? Because the recoil from the HMG is not
> enough to offset the mass of the tank.
>
> But in SRII if you mount a HMG on a firmpoint on a heavy vehicle you only
> get 1 point of recoil compensation. Even though there is no way that the
> vehicle is going to budge when firing the HMG.
>
> How about if you allow a weapon mount to provide recoil compensation equal
> to twice the body of the vehicle? (or maybe three times the body?) No
> matter what kind of point it's on.

Recoil in SR is entirely bogus anyway. When we had "Light Machine Guns"
(actually Bren Guns converted to 7.62mm - one was manufactured in 1944,
as I discovered when I got armoury duty) in my old unit, we trained to fire
bursts of four or five rounds. These were, in SR terms, medium machine guns,
with only a bipod: by SR rules we were looking at +6 or so for recoil.
Guess what? At 100 yards, a pattern of holes you could cover with the
palm of your hand, right where you wanted them.

I just have vehicle-mounted weapons ignore recoil, that's the way it works
for real. It's not as good as it sounds, you think my PCs ever get to use
vehicle weapons? :)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude
towards him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem.
For better or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." R. A. Lafferty

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 232
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 11:17:17 +1030
>|Firmpoints (mounts normal weapons up to LMG) give 1 pt of recoil
>|compensation,
>|
>|Hardpoints may mount any weapon. Each weapon is at HALF recoil.
>
>Which brings up a bitch of mine. I've always felt that the recoil
>compensation gained from Firmpoints and Hardpoints were bogus. I think
>that the recoil gained should be based on the body of the vehicle that
>the weapon is mounted on.

As a house rule, I play it that a hardpoint mounted weapon gets recoil
compensation equal to it's body AND those double-recoil weapons are at
half (i.e., normal) recoil.

I also have a rule about people who like to mount assault cannons on
motorbikes and expect to fire them while going at top speed... :)


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 233
From: Scott Spencer <java@**********.COM>
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:37:50 -0400
Once more into the breech dear friend...
-some dead english guy

I was flipping through Fof and Rbb last night and thinking about what kind
of drones I wanted my evil rigger (The Rigger, Mortis) and I realized in a
flash of light that I had no concept of how big these drones are. Can
anyone help.

Also, I cannot find in any of the books, what kind of Corp presence
Saeder-Krupp has in Seattle. I find it hard to believe that there is
nothing...
Help:}

By the way, Thanks
Java, because inquiring minds want to know
Message no. 234
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:41:53 -0400
>Once more into the breech dear friend...
> -some dead english guy

I thought it was Kenneth Branaugh? :)

>I was flipping through Fof and Rbb last night and thinking about what kind
>of drones I wanted my evil rigger (The Rigger, Mortis) and I realized in a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh that's HORRIBLE!!!! (I _MUST_ use it!)

>flash of light that I had no concept of how big these drones are. Can
>anyone help.
<personal opinion>
Um, well....I tend to treat the microskimmers as the size of garbage can
lids, (a little larger than your arms can encircle). Rotor drones I always
saw as half a man's height, with blades about as long. Steel Lynx style
drones I saw as about the size of two Saintbernards sideby side.
</personal opinion>

> Also, I cannot find in any of the books, what kind of Corp presence
>Saeder-Krupp has in Seattle. I find it hard to believe that there is
>nothing...

Given SK industries, I'd give them influence in the docks, shipping, and
most of the heavy industrial sections....

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 235
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:04:50 -0500
You wrote:
>
>Once more into the breech dear friend...
> -some dead english guy
>
>I was flipping through Fof and Rbb last night and thinking about what
kind of drones I wanted my evil rigger (The Rigger, Mortis) and I
realized in a flash of light that I had no concept of how big these
drones are. Can anyone help.

This is one area I really hope RBB2 improves in, as there aren't any
physical measurements for any vehicle provided. Maybe they should dupe
some of those "as compared to a street mage" images from the Paranormal
Animal books...

Best option: Guesstimate rough size from the CFs required to store the
drone, as well as the weapons/sensors layout for the drone (can't fit a
machine gun into something the size of a toaster.)

> Also, I cannot find in any of the books, what kind of Corp
presence Saeder-Krupp has in Seattle. I find it hard to believe that
there is nothing...

S-K became part of FASAlore after the Seattle Sourcebook release, so
that's no help. The Corporate Shadowfiles (which I don't own) may make
better mention, however.

>Help:}

'Tain't much, I'm afraid; I'm sue other listmembers will chime in.

>By the way, Thanks
> Java, because inquiring minds want to know
>
Message no. 236
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:52:08 +1000
> I was flipping through Fof and Rbb last night and thinking about what
kind
> of drones I wanted my evil rigger (The Rigger, Mortis) and I realized in
a
> flash of light that I had no concept of how big these drones are. Can
> anyone help.

Depends on the drone. The Steele Lynx is as big as a human if you look at
the picture. The Crawler on p.78 of RBB is about the size of a large bread
box. The Snooper, p.79 is the size of a loaf of bread. The condor is
bigger than the other two, but that is the balloon part. The actual
chassis would be smaller than the previous two. As a rough guideline, look
at the CF it takes to store them. The Rotodrone takes 5 CF, and the
Snooper takes 1 CF, therefore the Rotodrone is approx. 5 times the size of
the Snooper. Bye far the biggest drone in the RBB is the Wandjina. They
can mount MMG's, and have a storage space of 50 CF.

Hope that helps,

> Also, I cannot find in any of the books, what kind of Corp
presence
> Saeder-Krupp has in Seattle. I find it hard to believe that there is
> nothing...

Saeder-Krupp has a presence in Seattle. They would have a HQ set up in
downtown Seattle somewhere. There would be quite a presence, although not
as high as some of the other Mega's. I think this is mainly because S-K
primarily concentrates on Europe.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 237
From: Flo <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:25:03 +0200
> I was flipping through Fof and Rbb last night and thinking about what kind
> of drones I wanted my evil rigger (The Rigger, Mortis) and I realized in a
> flash of light that I had no concept of how big these drones are. Can
> anyone help.
Okay... the Mikroskimmer is about the size of a trashcan lid and uses
about 2LE for Storagem while the Steel Lynx is about human sized and
uses 20LE for Storage (look at the picture), so everything else would be
inbetween! So 5-8LE will be the size of a trashcan.
BTW modern drones are small Rockets (3-7 Meters long) or like the one of
Sikorsky (Its a Rotordrone) about the size of a Truck Tire!
Maybe this will help you

> Also, I cannot find in any of the books, what kind of Corp presence
> Saeder-Krupp has in Seattle. I find it hard to believe that there is
> nothing...

Saeder Krupp is a fragging German Corp, so what should they do in
Seattle :-), maybe they own a warehouse or two for shipping their goods
to the UCAS market, but else.. make a run in Germany!
(Know it, be there)

> Help:}
tried to do it
Message no. 238
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:19:26 +0100
> Um, well....I tend to treat the microskimmers as the size of garbage can
> lids, (a little larger than your arms can encircle). Rotor drones I always
> saw as half a man's height, with blades about as long. Steel Lynx style
> drones I saw as about the size of two Saintbernards sideby side.
>
> -=SwiftOne=-

Hey- the microskimmers are thesize of garbage can lids, true, but
doesn't it sy so in the RBB? (I could be wrong)
And in FoF, ther is a picture of a steel lynx and a man standing
beside it... so it should not be that hard to estimate it's size.
For the other drones: just use their body rating as a indicator. The
The crawler and snooper are about the size of a big loaf of bread
(body 1), and so on... the wandjina should have a wingspan of at
least 2 metres, if you take take the 50 cf you need to store it into
consideration.

ss
Message no. 239
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:07:09 EDT
Java wrote:


<< Also, I cannot find in any of the books, what kind of Corp
presence
Saeder-Krupp has in Seattle. I find it hard to believe that there is
nothing...>>


Well, having checked Seattle Sourcebook, I've noticed ol' Loffy hasn't
got a listing for SK in the back of the book (rather odd considering that
the other 7 AAA's do). SK does apparently have some sort of presence in
Seattle, as a picture of their Matrix system icon is included on one of
the color plates (the one that shows a "Matrix tour" of Seattle, also
shows the Fuchi, Aztechnology, Ares, Gaiatronics, etc systems). I even
checked Awakenings, where they talk about SK's magical security. Nothing.
I wish you luck, Java, I can't find anything <shrug>


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 240
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:19:01 +1000
> I was flipping through Fof and Rbb last night and thinking about what kind
> of drones I wanted my evil rigger (The Rigger, Mortis) and I realized in a

*much hilarity and giggling*

I _love_ that name! :)

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 241
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:02:46 -0700
> and I realized in a
> flash of light that I had no concept of how big these drones are. Can
> anyone help.

Well Assuming a man approx 6 feet tall....Here are the estimates I
have fixed in my head...LXWXH [in inches]
Crawler-20X13X13
Snooper-44X18X16
Condor I-70X70
RotrDrone-23X64
Dalmation-55X17X80
Microskimmer-32X14
Spotter-64X20X80
Wandjina-55X19X64
Doberman-87X40X43
Condor II-96X40X48
Lynx-Shown in FoF picture
RPD-VI- 36X20X29

-All- of these measurements are gross estimates using a tape measure
and the sizes I would expect them to be...

> Also, I cannot find in any of the books, what kind of Corp presence
> Saeder-Krupp has in Seattle. I find it hard to believe that there is
> nothing...

There are 2 major SK concerns based in Seattle S-K Northwest an S-K
Aerospace both are independant of each other..But overall they are
into Aerospace, Agriculture, Biotechnology, Chemicals, Computer
Engineering, Computer Science, Consumer Goods, Cybernetics,
Entertainment, Finance, HEavy Industry, Mystical Goods/Sr\ervices,
Military Technology, Service....So you could infer any of those into
a smaller concern within Seattle...Check out Corp ShadowFiles For
more detailed info....
--------------------------------GRANITE"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 242
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:33:25 +0100
Someone said:

> >I was flipping through Fof and Rbb last night and thinking about what
> > kind of drones I wanted my evil rigger (The Rigger, Mortis) and I
> > realized in a flash of light that I had no concept of how big these
> > drones are. Can anyone help.

We know the sizes of a few drones:

* Steel Lynx (FoF p.68): has a picture showing the different heights it
can make itself, and the silhouette of a human is next to that drawing.
* Aztechnology GCR-23C Crawler (RBB p.78): "the size of a large bread box"
though it's open to debate as to how large that is... Guesses, anyone?
* Gaz-Niki GNRD-71Bis Snooper (RBB p.79): "The size of an average loaf of
bread" and it has an extendibe sensor boom that can look over obstacles 3
meters in height. (3 meters?! The whole of the drone would have to be a
telescoping mast!)
* Sikorsky-Bell Microskimmer (RBB p.83): "The size of a trash-can lid,"
which makes me think it's about half a meter in diameter.

As for the others, I'd say they're about the same sizes too.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wat u bent, dat is niets anders dan de herinnering aan uzelf.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 243
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Questions
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:13:25 -0700
Greetings all!!
I am trying to get organized to start a new campaign, been -far- too long
since I've gamed. I've played SR a couple of times but never GM'd. Loved
the game, bought the books, now I'm hooked =).

Seeing as you all -luv- to answers questions, here are a few more for ya.

1) During PC creation limit buying equip to Street Index 2
2) Once play starts (at first anyway or until situation dictates a change),
limit buying equip to
Street Index 1.
3) Limit purchases to BBB and SSC.
4) I've seen mentioned that Dreamchipper is a good starting module, any
other suggestions??
5) Also thinking that maybe a bug hunt to get started would be a better
introduction as far as game mechanics are involved.

Any other hints and suggestions would be -greatly- appreciated.

MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365

May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 244
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:51:50 -0600
At 13:13 9/7/97 -0700, you wrote:

>2) Once play starts (at first anyway or until situation dictates a change),
>limit buying equip to
> Street Index 1

I see no reason to this; if the players can't get a contact who can find
what they need, they can't get it.

>3) Limit purchases to BBB and SSC.

I go even further, BBB only.

>4) I've seen mentioned that Dreamchipper is a good starting module, any
>other suggestions??

I say start out with stuff of your own creation, easier than handling FASA
modules to start with.

>5) Also thinking that maybe a bug hunt to get started would be a better
>introduction as far as game mechanics are involved.

To introduce game mechanics, I ussually just use 'sparring'. Just set up a
battle between your characters and some other guys, that has no effect on
the campaign, and then let them loose.

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 245
From: Rob Siemborski <robsiemb@******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:25:34 -0400
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Hernandez wrote:

> 1) During PC creation limit buying equip to Street Index 2
> 2) Once play starts (at first anyway or until situation dictates a change),
> limit buying equip to
> Street Index 1.

Sounds interesting. However, Street Index is usually used to show how
much buying it on the black market (Runners usually don't buy direct from
Ares :) is going to run you, in multiples of the original cost. It
doesn't apply to character creation (atleast not when I've played or
GM'd). Most people use Availability of 6 as the top for chargen.

Also, most items have a street index > 1 making it very difficult to
obtain anything after chargen with your system.

Of course, you are the GM and it's all up to you. (Ain't power grand?)

- Rob -

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rob Siemborski * http://www.bergen.org/~robsiemb (Has PGP Public Key)
Wow! Web Wonders <> http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Wow/
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Message no. 246
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:03:59 -0500
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:13:25 -0700 Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
writes:
>Greetings all!!

Yo!

>I am trying to get organized to start a new campaign, been -far- too
>long
>since I've gamed. I've played SR a couple of times but never GM'd.
>Loved
>the game, bought the books, now I'm hooked =).

Oh boy, oh boy!

>Seeing as you all -luv- to answers questions, here are a few more for
>ya.
>
>1) During PC creation limit buying equip to Street Index 2

Sounds fair enough, starting players don't need Panther Cannons until
after their first run :)

>2) Once play starts (at first anyway or until situation dictates a
>change),
>limit buying equip to
> Street Index 1.

What are the weapons dealers in your game good for theN?

>3) Limit purchases to BBB and SSC.

See, I'm a nice guy, I don't tell players what to, and what not to buy
(Mostly because they'd get the book to see what they're missing.) I just
ask them not to really look at the GM parts unless they want to start
GMing themselves.

>4) I've seen mentioned that Dreamchipper is a good starting module,
>any
>other suggestions??

Your own stuff usually werks best, but I've always liked the Excesior
module out of Shadows of the Underworld

>5) Also thinking that maybe a bug hunt to get started would be a
>better
>introduction as far as game mechanics are involved.

Why don't you try something a little lower than bugs, like maybe wetwork,
or a simple kidnapping.

>Any other hints and suggestions would be -greatly- appreciated.

Well, that's probably why you mailed the list!

Gweedo the Killer Pimp!
Message no. 247
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:52:56 +0100
Hernandez said on 13:13/ 7 Sep 97...

> 1) During PC creation limit buying equip to Street Index 2

It would be better to limit gear to a certain Availability TN, not a
Street Index. For example, only allow stuff with an Availability of 6 or
less.

> 2) Once play starts (at first anyway or until situation dictates a change),
> limit buying equip to
> Street Index 1.

One word: don't. Make the Availability rolls for everything they want to
purchase, and if it comes up too low, then tough luck but they can't have
it. That severely limits APDS in your game: try rolling a 14 when you need
it (or a 12 if they try to get it on the street). Not limiting Street
Index also allows you to relieve them of excess money.

And if they want to try again, first let an amount of time equal to the
Availability time go by (in the game). For APDS, that's one roll against a
TN 14 every two weeks. Plenty of opportunity for adventures in the mean
time...

> 3) Limit purchases to BBB and SSC.

If your players are bound to go wild when they get Shadowtech, FoF, or
similar books, then this may be a sensile precaution. Else, just use the
Availability rolls again. Most of the neat equipment has a high TN.

> 4) I've seen mentioned that Dreamchipper is a good starting module, any
> other suggestions??

If you have the original Harlequin, you might want to start them off with
the first adventure in that book. It's a fairly uncomplicated breaking &
entering type run, and it forms the start to a ready-made campaign.

> 5) Also thinking that maybe a bug hunt to get started would be a better
> introduction as far as game mechanics are involved.

Since most of the game mechanics come into play during combat, try A
Killing Glare, which has a mass fight at the end.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 248
From: Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject: questions
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:41:53 -0400
Anyone have and ideas , plots, or stats for :

1. a lich??

2a. demons. ?

Anyone have adaptaions from the Mutant Chronicals.
2b. Its a great plot with demons, mars and Mega-corporations.

3. Conversions of the Earth Dawn Patterns into shadowrun.
I wanna set a campain where a group tear apart Urdli's Pattern.

A request to build the library of
Platinum
Message no. 249
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:42:21 +0100
Rick St Jean said on 22:41/ 7 Oct 97...

> Anyone have and ideas , plots, or stats for :
>
> 1. a lich??

You mean an undead magician? The only true undead I can think of are corps
cadavres from PAoE and Awakenings; apart from those, all "undead" in SR
are (meta)humans afflicted by some kind of Awakened disease. A lich
wouldn't really fit in with SR, IMHO, but if you have to have one, I
suggest taking a very high-level (6+) initiate and adding some paranormal
powers, such as (this is based on AD&D liches) Cold Aura, Fear, Immunity
to Age, Immunity to Normal Weapons, Immunity to Pathogens, Immunity to
Poisons, Magical Guard, Magical Resistance, and Regeneration. Plus, of
course, the ability to cast spells as they did in life.

> 2a. demons. ?

I suggest using the Horrors, unless perhaps you want Discworld-style
demons :)

> Anyone have adaptaions from the Mutant Chronicals.
> 2b. Its a great plot with demons, mars and Mega-corporations.

Not me. Playing Warzone exactly once sums up my entire experience
with Mutant Chronicles :)

> 3. Conversions of the Earth Dawn Patterns into shadowrun.
> I wanna set a campain where a group tear apart Urdli's Pattern.

That would IMHO be possible in SR, but it would also require a rather
involved shift in magical theory -- from the current rough around the
edges spellcasting to thinking in terms of patterns and everything that
goes along with it. Unless you've been trained by the likes of Harlequin,
I doubt you even want to believe this type of magical theory at first.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 250
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:10:54 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-08 06:08:26 EDT, Platinum@*****.CA (Rick St Jean)
writes:

>
> 1. a lich??

Yes actually, it's a variation on Cybermancy. Lots of Power and NOT for the
beginning (read as a character below 100 karma) group.

> 2a. demons. ?

We once had the "Wraith of the Chicago", utilizing the Wraith, City Spirit
and Slipshade (ED) attributes. A token messenger from Taint.

> Anyone have adaptaions from the Mutant Chronicals.
> 2b. Its a great plot with demons, mars and Mega-corporations.

No, but in one game line we did have the CoMD (Chamber of Martian
Development) and the group got to do LOTS of stuff, even be there for the
Martian Mana Cycle to erupt.

> 3. Conversions of the Earth Dawn Patterns into shadowrun.
> I wanna set a campain where a group tear apart Urdli's Pattern.

We have some things from ED translated, but they are only loosely so. A
variation on Threading (a new Metamagic) is fully developed, but doesn't
really work the same as the discipline in ED.

> A request to build the library of

One Page of a Book at a Time.
-K
-
Message no. 251
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:31:07 +0100
In article <199710081042.MAA18222@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about questions

>> 2a. demons. ?
>
>I suggest using the Horrors, unless perhaps you want Discworld-style
>demons :)
>

Interesting.

Gurth, if I may ask a simple question?

Why use horrors in place of demons?

Many religions and mytholgies contain references to demons and devils.
Now, allowing for the fact that a fair amount of Shadowrun (critters and
otherwise) is taken form mythology, mystery, lore and history - would it
not seem reasonable to assume that these demons and devils actually
exist? Only they're on a plane of existence not yet discovered.

Either an astral plane which has yet to be breached, containing spirits
whose form appears as the demons and devils of myth, or a seperate plane
of existence much like the horrors?

It is admittedly easier to use the horrors, as stats are already
provided for those, but... :)

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 252
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:21:02 +0100
Avenger said on 2:31/ 9 Oct 97...

> >I suggest using the Horrors, unless perhaps you want Discworld-style
> >demons :)
> >
>
> Interesting.
>
> Gurth, if I may ask a simple question?
>
> Why use horrors in place of demons?

Probably because when I hear or read the word "demon" the first thing I
think of is some kind of horrible creature out to do bad things to people.
The Horrors fit that bill IMHO...

> Many religions and mytholgies contain references to demons and devils.

Unlike some RPGs ;)

> Now, allowing for the fact that a fair amount of Shadowrun (critters and
> otherwise) is taken form mythology, mystery, lore and history - would it
> not seem reasonable to assume that these demons and devils actually
> exist? Only they're on a plane of existence not yet discovered.

That's certainly a reasonable thought, with a single drawback: if they
and/or their plane haven't been discovered yet, why would they appear in a
game? You'd need a very good, not to mention believable, reason. And
what kind of impact will they have on the game world once the secret is
out?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 253
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:59:28 +0100
And verily, did Avenger hastily scribble thusly...

|Interesting.
|
|Gurth, if I may ask a simple question?
|
|Why use horrors in place of demons?

Because the entire myth of Demons in the shadowrun world came from the
horrors?

|Many religions and mytholgies contain references to demons and devils.

Ahhhh, but where did they GET these ideas?
Racial memory of Earthdawn times perhaps?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 254
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:12:31 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-09 05:46:51 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> |Why use horrors in place of demons?
>
> Because the entire myth of Demons in the shadowrun world came from the
> horrors?
>
> |Many religions and mytholgies contain references to demons and devils.
>
> Ahhhh, but where did they GET these ideas?
> Racial memory of Earthdawn times perhaps?
>
Now this sounds a bit more like something SR could deal with. I realize that
Horrors as printed in ED are powerful (like duh), but the rules of magic may
have also changed. Hopefully Mother Earth finally took the hint and is
playing some games of her own. After all, I can't really find a "spirit" in
the SR sense in any of the ED books. Sure, LOTS of tough magic, and the
Passions are there, but no "Passion Spirits" per se (unless you count the big
bad beings theirselves).

As to where those ideas may have come from? Lots of materials are pretty
old, including the Bible (and what tome of ideas it is to be honest). And it
isn't the oldest, though some of its books are now believed to have been
"reprinted" out of order from the old testamant (gosh, let's hope they got
the first 5 right ;).

-Keith
Message no. 255
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:31:29 +0100
|Now this sounds a bit more like something SR could deal with. I realize that
|Horrors as printed in ED are powerful (like duh), but the rules of magic may
|have also changed. Hopefully Mother Earth finally took the hint and is
|playing some games of her own. After all, I can't really find a "spirit" in
|the SR sense in any of the ED books. Sure, LOTS of tough magic, and the
|Passions are there, but no "Passion Spirits" per se (unless you count the big
|bad beings theirselves).

There ARE conjuring skills/powers in Earthdawn.
One of the most visible is the 5th circle "spirit mentor" thingy (or
whatever it's called) where the adept can call on the ghost of a high circle
adept of his discipline to train him....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 256
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:36:51 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-10 06:34:00 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

>
> There ARE conjuring skills/powers in Earthdawn.
> One of the most visible is the 5th circle "spirit mentor" thingy (or
> whatever it's called) where the adept can call on the ghost of a high
circle
> adept of his discipline to train him....
>
I do remember that, and I do not debate the conjuring skills of ED, and lots
of power to them. However, don't skip the argument here. I have found no
"Spirits" as per Nature Spirits (or the mroe common spirits of man in urban
life) anywhere within the ED books (and those guys at the hobby stores are
getting annoyed with me reading their entire books, not buying them, and
leaving.

-K
Message no. 257
From: Jim Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:35:56 -0300
>Now this sounds a bit more like something SR could deal with. I realize
that
>Horrors as printed in ED are powerful (like duh), but the rules of magic
may
>have also changed. Hopefully Mother Earth finally took the hint and is
>playing some games of her own. After all, I can't really find a "spirit"
in
>the SR sense in any of the ED books. Sure, LOTS of tough magic, and the
>Passions are there, but no "Passion Spirits" per se (unless you

You need to check out the ED Grimiore (not called that). It covers all
kinds of really slick mage tricks.... enhanced thread and talent tricks...
a rehash of the player blood magic rules, shamans, summoning, ally spirits
and multi-discipline spell combos. All in all a very nice way to flesh out
the mage type.
On that note... I realize that SR characters tend not to fit into
pigeonholes very nicely, but between the two Denizens books and the Adepts
Way I find Earthdawn has some of the best source material for understanding
what makes the people in the world tick. Hrmm... I suppose the other reason
it's nice is because they packaged it with more than one class/race per book
(*choke*White*cough**gag*Wolf*ahem*) and while there is art it isn't the
dominant feature...in other words less than 50% is art
(*choke*WW*cough**gag*again*ahem*). I just wish more people (in my area at
least) would be willing to give ED a shot... they all come in two flavors
now... those who won't try it because A@#D soured them on fantasy or the
ones who won't try it because they really really like A#@*. Of course then
there are the GURP Heads.

.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-
._
Warning: Be on the look out for a high speed free spirit. It's preferred
form is a small Native American boy.
Known Aliases: Little Running Joke
Welcome to the Shadows of Washington, DCLXVI Chummer! We got more
demoncrats
and Sinators than you can shake a stun baton at. --Anonymous
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y++++*
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Message no. 258
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:43:30 +0100
And verily, did J. Keith Henry hastily scribble thusly...
|I do remember that, and I do not debate the conjuring skills of ED, and lots
|of power to them. However, don't skip the argument here. I have found no
|"Spirits" as per Nature Spirits (or the mroe common spirits of man in urban
|life) anywhere within the ED books (and those guys at the hobby stores are
|getting annoyed with me reading their entire books, not buying them, and
|leaving.

Naughty...
:)

The whole point of earthdawn is, they have a much higher understanding of
magic.

Due to their experiences with blood magic, they now KNOW that magic is not
just "There" with fixed laws, but shapes itself to the expectations of the
people tapping into it.

If nature spirits (which are mainly based on American Indian ideals that
wouldn't exist for 5000 years) weren't part of the mythos of earthdawn, they
wouldn't exist.

Elementals DO exist. Although, they haven't been discussed much yet.

Even the netherworlds are completely different in earthdawn times than the
Metaplanes are in ours...

It's all a matter of perspective.--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 259
From: The _Astral _Watch-Dude <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: questions
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 18:09:19 -0600
1. is the snake coming off that lady on the cover of awakenings
Damballah Wedo?
2. Do any of yall have any home-grown elemental effects?
3. Does anyone here play a houngan?
3b.if so whats yuour Mait tete?
3c. Are you petro or Rada?
4. How come when they put manipilation spells on archetypes in the books
the spells always end up being illusion spells?
5. Can a houngan be a white boy?
6. can carp eat people?
7. What are fetishes for houngans(voodoo doll,paint,Etc)
8. What kinds of foci can a houngan use?
9. Can a houngan take a specialization in casting spells?
and my tenth question:
10. Which people here allow Voodoun in their games?
Message no. 260
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:44:33 -0500
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 18:09:19 -0600 The _Astral _Watch-Dude
<elfman@*****.NET> writes:
>1. is the snake coming off that lady on the cover of awakenings
>Damballah Wedo?


That's my guess, unless someone else can confirm/deny that (Steve?)


<snip 2, and 3: my answer is no on all counts:) >
>4. How come when they put manipilation spells on archetypes in the books
>the spells always end up being illusion spells?


Could you be more specific? I left Awakenings in my dorm room last
week...


>5. Can a houngan be a white boy?


Assuming he comes from the appropriate cultural background, I don't see
any reason why not. OTOH, my RL knowledge of voudoun is absolutely nil,
so I an't be sure, but I don't see any reason why not.


>6. can carp eat people?


That all depends on how many pieces the person is in and on the size of
the carp...


>7. What are fetishes for houngans(voodoo doll,paint,Etc)


Paint? I don't think that would function well as a fetish... A 'voodoo
doll' is what's called a symbolic representation and is used as a ritual
link for riual sorcery -- it's covered in either the Grimmy or
Awakenings, one. Voudoun is more shamanic than anything else (and it's a
religion to boot), so I'd expect stuff more along the lines of what
passes for a shamanic fetish... You might look into doing some research
on the belief system if you're that interested...


>8. What kinds of foci can a houngan use?


Anything that any other kind of magician has access to, plus the govi,
AFAIK.


>9. Can a houngan take a specialization in casting spells?


Certainly, though it would be fairly unlikely. The bigger question is
'why?'


>and my tenth question:
>10. Which people here allow Voodoun in their games?


I'd be happy to allow just about anything that a player really wants,
provided he can sufficiently explain the why's and how's of the
character. Does that answer your question?

--
John Pederson Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 261
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:59:47 -0500
On Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 06:09:19PM -0600, The _Astral _Watch-Dude wrote:
> 1. is the snake coming off that lady on the cover of awakenings
> Damballah Wedo?
> 2. Do any of yall have any home-grown elemental effects?
> 3. Does anyone here play a houngan?
> 3b.if so whats yuour Mait tete?
> 3c. Are you petro or Rada?
> 4. How come when they put manipilation spells on archetypes in the books
> the spells always end up being illusion spells?
> 5. Can a houngan be a white boy?
Why not. As long as he believes the traditions.

> 6. can carp eat people?
Depends on the type. 1000 year old dead ones no. But they can bury
you, and make you wish you had been eaten.

> 7. What are fetishes for houngans(voodoo doll,paint,Etc)
In my game, same things as for other magicians. Dolls, powders, chicken
blood, bones, trikets etc.
> 8. What kinds of foci can a houngan use?
I believe almost any. (I don't have awakenings handy, so I may be
mistaken)
> 9. Can a houngan take a specialization in casting spells?
Why not. Its just a modified sorcery skill, which they have to have.

> and my tenth question:
> 10. Which people here allow Voodoun in their games?
I do. (Althout we've only had one player so far).
I think they add some odd flavor.
Later.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 262
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:19:13 +0000
On 26 Dec 97, The _Astral _Watch-Dude disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda by writing:

> 2. Do any of yall have any home-grown elemental effects?

Yeah. "Marihuana home-grown elemental effect." Adds +2 to all TNs of
affected being because he's seeing stuff...

> 3c. Are you petro or Rada?
Hmmm.... Awakenings, p. 129 "A PC cannot play a Petro houngan"

> 5. Can a houngan be a white boy?
Yeah, sure, why not? An albino gets +1 to Willpower, after all.

> 6. can carp eat people?
Yes, of course. (But then, the other situation is much more common...
E.g. I ate carp this Christmas...)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Don't you dare touch that 'ignore' button!!
Message no. 263
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:46:30 -0800
The _Astral _Watch-Dude wrote:
>
> 1. is the snake coming off that lady on the cover of awakenings
> Damballah Wedo?

This sounds suspiciously like the Goat-or-Dragon argument...

> 10. Which people here allow Voodoun in their games?

I do, and not just for Houngans, either.


-Mb
Message no. 264
From: The _Astral _Watch-Dude <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:01:44 -0600
> > 10. Which people here allow Voodoun in their games?
>
> I do, and not just for Houngans, either.

Please explain said statement.
Message no. 265
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:54:23 +0100
The _Astral _Watch-Dude said on 18:09/26 Dec 97...

> 1. is the snake coming off that lady on the cover of awakenings
> Damballah Wedo?

IMHO it's something the illustrator thought was cool :)

> 2. Do any of yall have any home-grown elemental effects?

Carp. I've posted it on the list at one time, but I'd have to look through
my saved mails to find it.

> 4. How come when they put manipilation spells on archetypes in the books
> the spells always end up being illusion spells?

What exactly do you mean?

> 5. Can a houngan be a white boy?

"White boy" as in "caucasian male"? I don't see why not. (Never watch
The
X-Files, do you? *grin*)

> 6. can carp eat people?

???

> 7. What are fetishes for houngans(voodoo doll,paint,Etc)
> 8. What kinds of foci can a houngan use?

See Awakenings, page 128.

> 9. Can a houngan take a specialization in casting spells?

Every magician capable of spellcasting can do that. Remember that
Spellcasting (for all spells) is a concentration of Sorcery skill, while
specializations within Spellcasting are in a certain _class_ of spells --
Combat, Detection, etc.

> 10. Which people here allow Voodoun in their games?

I do, but nobody has decided to play a hounan yet. We did have one as an
NPC last summer, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 266
From: The _Astral _Watch-Dude <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:58:38 -0600
> > 4. How come when they put manipilation spells on archetypes in the books
> > the spells always end up being illusion spells?
>
> What exactly do you mean?

In awakenings, under the archtypes,under the houngan archetype, under
the loa ghede are the following
spells:Chaos,Entertainment,invisibility,mask.Those are all illusion
spells.not one is a manipulation spell,for whic ghede gives bonuses for.
Message no. 267
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:50:02 +0100
The _Astral _Watch-Dude said on 12:58/27 Dec 97...

> > > 4. How come when they put manipilation spells on archetypes in the books
> > > the spells always end up being illusion spells?
> >
> > What exactly do you mean?
>
> In awakenings, under the archtypes,under the houngan archetype, under
> the loa ghede are the following
> spells:Chaos,Entertainment,invisibility,mask.Those are all illusion
> spells.not one is a manipulation spell,for whic ghede gives bonuses for.

Yes, you're right. Strange nobody noticed this before; for the other
houngans, the spells listed all get the loa's dice bonus, but for the
follower of Ghede none of them do. I think the mait tete should probably
be Agwe or Erzulie, not Ghede, as both of them give extra dice for
illusion spells.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Message no. 268
From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Questions
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:31:28 +0200
Got a few questions :
1. How many ICEs are usually in a medium secured system (10 knots).

2. What about earths pollution level in 2053+?

3. Does poilitcs have any power or is it just for the illusion of
democracy ?

4. If I strike someone onto his (e.g.) solar plexus (very hard), will
he/she be dead or just unconscious (being in koma)?

5. How many houses (everage 1 family, built up in a circle) are
destroyed by 5kg C14 exploding in the center house cellar?

6. How powerful is the Humanis-Policlub (translation ?)?

7. Is there anywhere a list of the biggest known corps?

Puh...quite many.
Thanx by now
NT
-------------------------------------

Always (nearly) wanna know something!

-------------------------------------
Message no. 269
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:13:17 PDT
>Got a few questions :
I've got a few answers... might even be the right ones.

>1. How many ICEs are usually in a medium secured system (10 knots).

I don't know. (Hey, it's an answer, so quit whining! :)

>
>2. What about earths pollution level in 2053+?

Since Shadowrun is supposed to be depicted as "Dark" and
"Gritty",
I would say they are slightly higher than today's levels overall.
Technology has slowed it down, but fossil fuels are still used, and
plastic is a popular as ever. See individual city sourcebooks for info
on polution in specific regions.

>
>3. Does poilitcs have any power or is it just for the illusion of
>democracy ?

That's just as debatable as it is today. However, politics within
megacorps is definatly powerful. Remember the Golden Rule: He who has
the gold, makes the rules.

>
>4. If I strike someone onto his (e.g.) solar plexus (very hard), will
>he/she be dead or just unconscious (being in koma)?

In game terms? Depends on your strength rating, your unarmed combat
skill rating, your net successes, and the successes of the person you
are attacking.

>
>5. How many houses (everage 1 family, built up in a circle) are
>destroyed by 5kg C14 exploding in the center house cellar?

They give you numbers in the BBB- look it up(I'm too lazy).

>
>6. How powerful is the Humanis-Policlub (translation ?)?

H-P supposedly has ties to Alamos 20,000- which is rumored to be a
really powerful hate group. See the "Threats" sourcebook. The only
"exact" answer I can give is: it's up to the GM.

>
>7. Is there anywhere a list of the biggest known corps?

Umm.. Corporate Shadowfiles has the "orginal" list. For a more
updated list you may want to see Blood in the Boardroom or the yet to be
released(as far as I know) Corp War!
Check out the SR Webring, I'm sure someone has a page of them
somewhere.

>
>Puh...quite many.

Doing Legwork yourself proves most rewarding. For every question you
give to the list, you are most asuredly going to get a different answer
from every member.
(huh huh... I said "member"...)

>Thanx by now

Email me privately for my address. I accept AMEX, Visa, MC, no
personal checks, please. :)



-Vagabond
"Under wandering stars I've grown"
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 270
From: NEWSHADOW <NEWSHADOW@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:46:02 EDT
In a message dated 98-04-26 17:34:50 EDT, you write:

> 7. Is there anywhere a list of the biggest known corps?

You might wanna check out the Corporate Shadowfiles, although if you don't
have it by now, you'll have to look real hard for it. Also, Blood in the
Boardroom doesn't give a list, but it does give you more info on the corps and
how the old fell and the new came to power. I'm sure others on the list will
have more info.

SHADOW
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena6852/index.html
Message no. 271
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@******.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:30:41 -0500
4. If I strike someone onto his (e.g.) solar plexus (very hard), will
he/she be dead or just unconscious (being in koma)?

It's very unlikely that you'll knock someone out by hitting them in the
solar plexus except, perhaps, by inflicting so much pain that the brain
just shuts down. The solar plexus is the soft area below the sternum,
and above the major ab muscles. If you're looking for it, and you push
in the right spot, you'll know when you've hit it. It's a difficult area to hit
to punch, but if you can hit it with something pointy, you'll get a good
reaction. It's seriously doubtful that you'll kill, and very unlikelly you'll
put someone in a coma. At the least, you will seriously annoy your target.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"Everyone wants to be Cary Grant. Even I want to be Cary Grant."
-- Cary Grant
Message no. 272
From: Jessica Grota <grota@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:28:48 -0400
> It's very unlikely that you'll knock someone out by hitting them in the
> solar plexus except, perhaps, by inflicting so much pain that the brain
> just shuts down. The solar plexus is the soft area below the sternum,
> and above the major ab muscles. If you're looking for it, and you push
> in the right spot, you'll know when you've hit it. It's a difficult area to hit
> to punch, but if you can hit it with something pointy, you'll get a good
> reaction. It's seriously doubtful that you'll kill, and very unlikelly you'll
> put someone in a coma.


Not necessarily true, Mike! If you break the breastbone, you can kill a
person. That's why you have to be so careful giving the heimlich
maneuver, CPR, etc. Also, there's a fair chance that a decent hit in the
solar plex will at the very least knock the wind out of someone.

--Jett
Message no. 273
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@******.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:50:04 -0500
> It's very unlikely that you'll knock someone out by hitting them in the
> solar plexus except, perhaps, by inflicting so much pain that the brain
> just shuts down. The solar plexus is the soft area below the sternum,
> and above the major ab muscles. If you're looking for it, and you push
> in the right spot, you'll know when you've hit it. It's a difficult area to hit
> to punch, but if you can hit it with something pointy, you'll get a good
> reaction. It's seriously doubtful that you'll kill, and very unlikelly you'll
> put someone in a coma.


Not necessarily true, Mike! If you break the breastbone, you can kill a
person. That's why you have to be so careful giving the heimlich
maneuver, CPR, etc. Also, there's a fair chance that a decent hit in the
solar plex will at the very least knock the wind out of someone.

--Jett

I don't deny any of this. But, we aren't hitting the sternum, are we? If we
want to get into "I hit here, effects are..." then I could say breaking your
knee
cap can kill you because it's potentially possible to tear out the femur in the
break, cause bleeding, trauma, shock and death.

Yes, you can knock the wind out of someone. Which, actually, is the entire
point of hitting the solar plexus. That's not unconsious, and certainly not deadly.
Learning to breathe correctly can fix the problem in short order.

Also, for further clarification, breaking the sternum won't positively kill you,
it just doesn't help anything. Only if the bone punctures or crushes the heart
is there going to be a problem. Just as it's possible to fracture the neck but
not die, depending on what is destroyed (besides bone) in the break.

Unfortunately, in Sr, the unarmed combat system is fairly inaccurate and
rather clumsy. But hey, you have to take the good with the bad.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"Everyone wants to be Cary Grant. Even I want to be Cary Grant."
-- Cary Grant
Message no. 274
From: Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 02:14:23 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Jessica Grota <grota@*********.COM>
>> It's very unlikely that you'll knock someone out by hitting them in the
>> solar plexus except, perhaps, by inflicting so much pain that the brain
>> just shuts down. The solar plexus is the soft area below the sternum,
>> and above the major ab muscles. If you're looking for it, and you push
>> in the right spot, you'll know when you've hit it. It's a difficult area
to hit
>> to punch, but if you can hit it with something pointy, you'll get a good
>> reaction. It's seriously doubtful that you'll kill, and very unlikelly
you'll
>> put someone in a coma.
>
>
>Not necessarily true, Mike! If you break the breastbone, you can kill a
>person. That's why you have to be so careful giving the heimlich
>maneuver, CPR, etc. Also, there's a fair chance that a decent hit in the
>solar plex will at the very least knock the wind out of someone.

Isn't the solar plexus right below your sternum? If I remember right, (From
reading and personal experience) if you hit that area you'll knock the wind
out of someone, and atleast incapacitate them. To kill them you would have
to hit closer to the heart I think...I've heard stories where people seem to
be fine, but blunt force trauma has disrupted the nerves in their heart and
they've died (Such as an car accident where the steering wheel hit them in
the chest, or a baseball hit someone in their chest).

To put someone in a Coma would require some sort of head wound. I don't
think I've ever heard anyone being put into a coma by a chest wound (of
course I'm not a doctor, so I could be wrong...any PreMed of M.D.s out
there?)

Wraith
Message no. 275
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:04:27 +0100
Alexander Jenisch said on 23:31/26 Apr 98...

> Got a few questions :
> 1. How many ICEs are usually in a medium secured system (10 knots).

10 nodes, you mean? Phew, it can be almost anything, really, at least if
you're using straight SRII Matrix rules. I suggest looking at a few
FASA-published adventures for that, or buying Virtual Realities 2.0, as it
makes the Matrix a lot easier to deal with (once you've struggled through
the book :)

> 2. What about earths pollution level in 2053+?

I'd say about the same as now, or a bit worse. It depends on where you
are, though -- the NAN has been re-growing many forests in North America,
for example, and in Amazonia anything that causes pollution is a very big
"no".

> 3. Does poilitcs have any power or is it just for the illusion of
> democracy ?

Again, it depends where you are. When you're dealing with a megacorp,
democracy doesn't come into it very much. With the UCAS government, it is
a factor just like it is now.

> 5. How many houses (everage 1 family, built up in a circle) are
> destroyed by 5kg C14 exploding in the center house cellar?

By the book, none, or perhaps one. Assuming C14 would have a rating of 14,
its Power Level would be 5 x 14^.5 = 19, and it would drop off at 14
points per meter. That is, the blast radius is about 1 1/3 m...

> 6. How powerful is the Humanis-Policlub (translation ?)?

Humanis is a bit of a strange organization. It's apparently quite big, but
some parts of it are just friendly social clubs of people who just happen
to dislike metahumans but don't dare do anything about it, others are
extremely militant and not afraid to use force.

> 7. Is there anywhere a list of the biggest known corps?

Yes, in Corporate Shadowfiles. In 2054, the biggest ones were, from large
to small:

Saeder-Krupp
Fuchi
Mitsuhama
Renraku
Ares
Shiawase
Aztechnology and Yamatetsu (these were about the same size)

With recent events, though, things may have changed...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's better to have loved and lost
Than to listen to an Olivia Newton John record
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 276
From: Jan Ove Liatun <jan.ove.liatun@**.ICL.NO>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:23:18 +0200
>> 5. How many houses (everage 1 family, built up in a circle) are
>> destroyed by 5kg C14 exploding in the center house cellar?
>
><Gurth wrote:>
>By the book, none, or perhaps one. Assuming C14 would have a rating of 14,
>its Power Level would be 5 x 14^.5 = 19, and it would drop off at 14
>points per meter. That is, the blast radius is about 1 1/3 m...
>
>Are you really sure about this? Don't grenades loose one powerlevel pr meter?
>Shouldn't explosives be treated the same, giving the example above a blast
>radius of 19 meters?
>
>Jan Ove Liatun
>-the newcomer
Message no. 277
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:57:22 EDT
In a message dated 4/26/98 9:34:51 PM !!!First Boot!!!, night@********.CO.AT
writes:

> Got a few questions :
> 1. How many ICEs are usually in a medium secured system (10 knots).

4-6.

> 2. What about earths pollution level in 2053+?

Sucks.

> 3. Does poilitcs have any power or is it just for the illusion of
> democracy ?

Politics still have a lot of power, as the corps do not want to mess with the
messier issues of life (cuts into the profit margin too much).

> 4. If I strike someone onto his (e.g.) solar plexus (very hard), will
> he/she be dead or just unconscious (being in koma)?

Unconscious, unless you do overkill.

> 5. How many houses (everage 1 family, built up in a circle) are
> destroyed by 5kg C14 exploding in the center house cellar?

Just one, or they are all damaged. 2D damage in a 6-10 meter radius is almost
nothing to something with a barrier rating and hardened armor of 6-9 for the
average house.

> 6. How powerful is the Humanis-Policlub (translation ?)?

Varies from group to group, though beware what happens if they set aside their
differences and act as one cohesive force.

> 7. Is there anywhere a list of the biggest known corps?

Within the Corporate Shadowfiles, though FASA is doing an update sometime
soon, I just don't remember the name of the new sourcebook though. Blood in
the Boardroom gives information about some of the corps, but does not give any
of the PAR (attributes for corps) ratings for the corps.

Mike
Message no. 278
From: Jacob Engstrom <sabredanz@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:33:14 EDT
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 02:14:23 -0500 Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
writes:

{SNIP}
>Isn't the solar plexus right below your sternum? If I >remember right,
(From reading and personal experience) >if you hit that area you'll knock
the wind out of >someone, and at least incapacitate them. To kill them
>you would have to hit closer to the heart I think...I've >heard stories
where people seem to be fine, but blunt >force trauma has disrupted the
nerves in their heart and
>they've died (Such as an car accident where the steering >wheel hit them
in the chest, or a baseball hit someone >in their chest).
{SNIP}

Well, I believe the point that was trying o be made is:
If one strikes just above the solar plexus at the base of the breastbone
with a slight downward curve you can break the Process (The reason you
measure up with two or three fingers when performing CPR) and almost
always send it in to the large muscle that controls breathing, disrupting
and paralyzing it almost 90% of the time as well as causing internal
bleeding into the body cavity and force Hemmoraging over several organs.
The disruption causes an end to breathing and brain damage and death can
set in inside of 10 minutes. To repair, surgery is the only option.

-J.T. Engstrom

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 279
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:47:11 +0100
Jan Ove Liatun said on 13:23/27 Apr 98...

> ><Gurth wrote:>
> >By the book, none, or perhaps one. Assuming C14 would have a rating of 14,
> >its Power Level would be 5 x 14^.5 = 19, and it would drop off at 14
> >points per meter. That is, the blast radius is about 1 1/3 m...
>
>Are you really sure about this? Don't grenades loose one powerlevel pr
> meter? Shouldn't explosives be treated the same, giving the example
> above a blast radius of 19 meters?

He was asking about 5 kg of "C14", which would be an explosive charge. If
you look at SRII page 242, you'll find that the Power Level of the blast
drops off at a rate of "the base Rating per meter." So if C14 has a rating
of 14, it will have a -14/m Power Level reduction.

Ludicrous, I know...

You're right about grenades, most of them go at -1/m, some at -2/m, and it
would be easiest to apply the -1/m to normal explosives as well. That way
you can actually blow up someone who isn't sitting on the charge :)


BTW, your messages appear a bit strange: the text you write is quoted as
well as the text you're replying to. Perhaps you should mess about with
the options a little...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of God and money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 280
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:41:30 -0700
Sometime Monday:

>Isn't the solar plexus right below your sternum? If I remember right, (From reading
and personal
>experience) if you hit that area you'll knock the wind out of someone, and at least
incapacitate
>them. To kill them you would have to hit closer to the heart I think...

...or be a borged out Troll with a Strength of 12?


- Matt

------------------------------------
Ask me tonight why love is strange
For I am drunk and full of reasons....

GridSec: SRCard
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 281
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:05:15 -0500
>
>>Isn't the solar plexus right below your sternum? If I remember right,
(From reading and personal
>>experience) if you hit that area you'll knock the wind out of someone,
and at least incapacitate
>>them. To kill them you would have to hit closer to the heart I
think...
>


Yep, just below the bottom of that pointy sternum bone is the place to
hit, a slight upward thrust works best. Some care needs to be exercised
when striking anywhere near the heart on the chest, however, as there
are some individuals where a sharp blow there can send the heart into
arrythimea, and in some cases, death...

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 282
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:27:56 +0100
According to Number Ten Ox, at 13:19 on 30 Nov 98, the word on
the street was...

> (1) Delphi, the former Corp mage, wishes to purchase some land -- in the
> middle of Puyallup -- raze the buildings on it, and create a garden. Now,
> he's got some plans for the garden and I've got some plans as to what can
> happen to it, but... what should I charge him for the land?

Figure out modern-day land prices for areas nobody else is really
interested in, and use those straight. I have no idea of prices today,
especially not in the US, but say it's X dollars per square meter (or
foot, or whatever), then it's also X nuyen for the same area in Shadowrun.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If I had green hair, I'd dye it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 283
From: Java <java@**********.COM>
Subject: Questions
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:00:10 -0500
Howdy chummers,

Once again I am prostrating myself before the collected knowledge
of the hive...er list. In hopes that you can help me.

1) Does anyone know were I can find a schematic of an OIl rig? I
thought that this was covered on the list before IIRC.

2) Does this list have an archive service, I did not see any thing in
the FAQ about it?

Thank You
Java
"Even shadowrunners
need a coffee break"

--
We Fight Crime.
It's What We Do.
DUH!

-The Powerpuff Girls
This mindless sig brought to you by Java in new coffeevision.
Message no. 284
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:38:43 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Java wrote:
/
/ Howdy chummers,
/
/ Once again I am prostrating myself before the collected knowledge
/ of the hive...er list. In hopes that you can help me.
/
/ 1) Does anyone know were I can find a schematic of an OIl rig? I
/ thought that this was covered on the list before IIRC.

Good luck trying to find anything. I tried to hunt down schematics for oil
rigs last year. I found one book that had a comprehensive listing of oil
rigs, with some decent photos and/or drawings, but no cut-aways.

One of the problems is that there are very few basic designs.
Practically each and every oil rig is different to one degree or another
from every other oil rig.

However there are some basic classes.

There's your oil rig that's in a fixed location and can't move. They
build these rigs and plant them permanently over gas or oil fields in
shallow water they know will last awhile (20+ years).

Then there are mobil rigs. These come in two types: your basic rig
which looks like your standard oil rig, and your jack rig, which is a
tanker with an oil platform in the middle of it.

My suggestion is just to draw up the plans on your own. Keep in mind
that there needs to be living quarters, cafeteria/kitchen, tool and
parts storage, lot's of work space, scads of piping, power generator,
water storage, the helipad, rescue boats, and whatever else you feel
like tossing into the mix :) Living quarters on newer rigs are located
away from the well head. Older rigs may not have that safety feature.

/ 2) Does this list have an archive service, I did not see any thing in
/ the FAQ about it?

That's odd, I coulda sworn the instructions for the archive were there.
<checks his version of the FAQ> Ah ha. It's way down at the bottom.

The archive index is available on the web at:

http://www.iTribe.net/shadowrun/index2.html

BTW, the latest version of the ShadowRN FAQ is at:

http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/BuildHtmlFAQ.php3?title=ShadowRN&faqlistúqsrn

-David B.
Message no. 285
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:42:53 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:38 AM 12/8/98 -0700, David B. wrote:
>That's odd, I coulda sworn the instructions for the archive were
there.
><checks his version of the FAQ> Ah ha. It's way down at the bottom.
>
>The archive index is available on the web at:
>
>http://www.iTribe.net/shadowrun/index2.html

404.

Maybe your version of the FAQ needs updating?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 286
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:56:13 -0500
At 01:42 PM 12/8/98 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:38 AM 12/8/98 -0700, David B. wrote:
>>That's odd, I coulda sworn the instructions for the archive were
>there.
>><checks his version of the FAQ> Ah ha. It's way down at the bottom.
>>
>>The archive index is available on the web at:
>>
>>http://www.iTribe.net/shadowrun/index2.html
>
>404.
>
>Maybe your version of the FAQ needs updating?
>


It looks like it is now:

http://www.itribe.net/shadowrun/home.html

-- Blair


------
Blair A. Monroe
Web Developer / Information Professional / Gamemaster
E-mail: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/
Message no. 287
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Questions.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:26:59 +1000
People,

I'm trying to answer a couple of questions for a friend of mine who,
alas, is no longer with us (on the list, that is).

First, can someone give me the address of a good, up-to-date character
sheet on the web?

And second, does anyone know a good (reliable) netstore he can order the
SR3 GM Screen from? It isn't out over here in Australia yet, and he's an
impatient boy. :)

*Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, really? What could I say here that wouldn't
seem purile and childish?*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 288
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Questions.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:45:54 -0600
>From: Ratinac, Rand (NSW)
>Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:27 AM

>First, can someone give me the address of a good, up-to-date character
>sheet on the web?

Wordman just posted recently about the updates he posted on his site.
Don't have the exact URL handy at the moment, though.

>And second, does anyone know a good (reliable) netstore he can
>order the SR3 GM Screen from? It isn't out over here in
>Australia yet, and he's an impatient boy. :)

www.fasa.com has always been good to me when I mail-ordered there. So
have www.levalet.com (they're in Canada) and www.crazyegors.com (they're
in New York).

Personally, though, if it was me, I'd save my money. *Very*
disappointing, and unlike the statements they've made elsewhere, not
even close to all the critters. One of my players told me, "I'm glad
you bought that and not me."

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 289
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:09:21 -0600
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:26:59 +1000 "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)"
<RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU> writes:
>People,
>
>I'm trying to answer a couple of questions for a friend of mine who,
>alas, is no longer with us (on the list, that is).
>
>First, can someone give me the address of a good, up-to-date character
>sheet on the web?

I think Wordman's is Up to date ... It's somewhere on the Deep Ressonance
... http://shadowrun.html.com

>And second, does anyone know a good (reliable) netstore he can order the
>SR3 GM Screen from? It isn't out over here in Australia yet, and he's an
>impatient boy. :)

What about www.FASA.com?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 290
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:03:13 +1000
>And second, does anyone know a good (reliable) netstore he can order the
>SR3 GM Screen from? It isn't out over here in Australia yet, and he's an
>impatient boy. :)

www.milsims.com.au

They get stuff slightly early, and they're cheap (cheaper than Brisbane
gaming stores, at any rate) and they're generally pretty good.

Email sales@*******.com.au to place an order.

Lady Jestyr

- The Australian dream: Football, meat pies and Holden cars. -
- Holdens are American, meat pies are British, and football is stupid. -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 291
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:00 +0100
According to Ratinac, Rand (NSW), at 16:26 on 16 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> First, can someone give me the address of a good, up-to-date character
> sheet on the web?

http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/charactersheet.html has
the latest version of my sheet, in PDF format, made from scratch for use
with third edition (and Rigger 2 & VR 2.0).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do you mean, "let it"? How can you stop it?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 292
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Questions.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:56:31 -0500
Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:
> First, can someone give me the address of a good, up-to-date character
> sheet on the web?
>
Well, you've been referred to Wordman's and Gurth's, I'll plug mine. :-)
The others are in PDF, and thus impossible to modify - mine's done in
HTML, so you can play around with it if you like. I like to keep my
characters typed up (I have lousy handwriting), and that's something
else you can't do with PDF...
http://ojaste.ml.org/~ojastej/SR/blank.html

> *Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, really? What could I say here that wouldn't
> seem purile and childish?*
>
Well, a reference to "the good old days" will merely make you look
senile... ;-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 293
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:46:51 -0500
>>From: Ratinac, Rand (NSW)
>>Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:27 AM
>
>>First, can someone give me the address of a good, up-to-date character
>>sheet on the web?
>
>Wordman just posted recently about the updates he posted on his site.
>Don't have the exact URL handy at the moment, though.

http://pobox.com/~wordman/srun/srunsheets.html

Wordman
Message no. 294
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Questions.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:10:09 -0500
On 12/16/98, at 11:56 AM, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:


>Well, you've been referred to Wordman's and Gurth's, I'll plug mine. :-)

Well, while we're plugging... ^_^

I've got one up at
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/misc/blanksheet.html I belive it is.



Back to biz,
-CM
---
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http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 295
From: NercoLythe@***.com NercoLythe@***.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:31:58 EST
Okay here I go again

1. When you create an Ally does it know the spells you know at creation or do
you have to learn it for it after creation.

2 If my Ally is inhibiting a critter can I give it cybernetic enhancements?

3. What is an UGE?

4. When going through initiation can I go through the same ordeal?

5. What are the conditions that must be if I plan on going on an astral quest
to learn a new spell? How does it differ from the normal process?

Thank you
Message no. 296
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:47:35 +0100
According to NercoLythe@***.com, at 2:31 on 19 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> 1. When you create an Ally does it know the spells you know at creation or do
> you have to learn it for it after creation.

You have to learn spells specifically for the ally -- it does not know all
the spells you do. Also, you can't give it spells immediately at its
creation; you need to spend the normal amount of time (the Force in days)
to learn it. Yes, even if you already know the exact same spell yourself.

> 2 If my Ally is inhibiting a critter can I give it cybernetic enhancements?

I don't see why not.

> 3. What is an UGE?

An Unexplained Genetic Expression. IOW, the "thing" that caused babies to
be dwarfs and elves in 2011.

> 4. When going through initiation can I go through the same ordeal?

I suppose you mean doing the same ordeal for different grades, right? Only
if the GM says you can (it specifically states this in the Grimthingy),
and some ordeals can never be done twice (like Oath).

--
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There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 297
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:19:14 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to NercoLythe@***.com."
]1. When you create an Ally does it know the spells you know at creation or do
]you have to learn it for it after creation.

Gotta teach 'em those spells (Allies are such a karma pit...and I sooo
wish my sorceror adpet could get one..<sniff>)

]2 If my Ally is inhibiting a critter can I give it cybernetic enhancements?

If you want to deal with your ally being a little buggy, sure.
Maybe a strategic implant would be good, like a smartjaw link,
or a torso compartment and an articulated arm with a scoop...
:)
Hmmm...does bioware have the same effect on critters as cyberware?
Or is it too human-specific to work? Could they make animal
bioware that doesn't drive the puppies crazy (I shudder at the thought
of the guard-dog with muscle augmentation 2, an olfactory enhancer,
and a pain editor...)?

]3. What is an UGE?

Gurth answered this.

]4. When going through initiation can I go through the same ordeal?

Personally, I don't see why you can't do some of them again (if
your GM says it's cool). Astral Quest should be allowed, though it
can get prohibitively difficult. Asceticism is a good one to repeat.
Deed has always seemed kind of a stupid one...you can save karma
by doing a run and not getting karma...hmmm. Why not take the
karma for the run and not do the ordeal? It's more of a roleplaying
thing. Familiar...well, if you can have multiple allies, why not
multiple familiars? Geasa? Sure, take more!
Meditation is too easy to allow twice. Oath isn't allowed, by the
book. Thesis is a one-shot deal too.

]5. What are the conditions that must be if I plan on going on an astral quest
]to learn a new spell? How does it differ from the normal process?

Frankly, The Grimoire ain't too clear on that. I haven't a clue.

Scott
Message no. 298
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:45:59 -0500 (EST)
Others have answered most of the questions, but this one caught
me, so I'll put in my $0.02

On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 NercoLythe@***.com wrote:

> 2 If my Ally is inhibiting a critter can I give it cybernetic enhancements?

Yes, but realize that while that critter is just the host for your
ally, the two are linked. I would probably rule that if you put cyberware
in an allied critter, you'd reduce the ally's force just like a magician
would have their magic attribute reduced by cyber implantation.
Also, the rules for cybering animals have been put forth, but I'm
not sure they're entirely appropriate. The rules were meant to for
animals that were essentially too stupid to grasp the complex concepts
that living with cyberware entails, and thus were driven mad by it.
Allies, on the other hand, are spirits that are on a par with human
intelligence, and thus may be able to adapt to the cyberware. After all,
the "mind" or "spirit" or "soul" of the animal is
effectively replaced
with that of the spirit, so you wouldn't be driving the *animal* crazy as
the animal's psyche has effectively ceased to exist.
So yes, I'd say it's possible, but I would probably use the loss
of force/magic rating as a way to offset the potentially huge bonuses
(boni?) that cyber implantation would give.

Marc
Message no. 299
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:34:45 EST
In a message dated 2/19/1999 2:32:44 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
NercoLythe@***.com writes:

> 1. When you create an Ally does it know the spells you know at creation or
> do
> you have to learn it for it after creation.

For an ally to know spells upon it's creation, the spells must be listed in
the all formula, otherwise, once the ally has been created, the mage must go
through the process of designing (or buying) and learning the spell for their
ally (which does mean that an ally could have spells their 'owner' does not
have.

> 2 If my Ally is inhibiting a critter can I give it cybernetic enhancements?

Once the ally has been installed into the inhabitation object making any
changes to it later probably would only require that the 'owner' change the
ally formula to incorporate the change(s) and then perform a ritual to make it
so. However, the enhancements could be installed at the onset, during the
initial creation of the ally.

> 3. What is an UGE?

"Unexplained Genetic Expression," or something someone said when the first
troll came out of the womb and the doc said, "IT's Uge", forgetting to insert
the LY in the ugly.

> 4. When going through initiation can I go through the same ordeal?

The only ordeals which can be repeated over and over again are thesis, astral
quest, and mentoring, all others can only be done once (supposedly).

> 5. What are the conditions that must be if I plan on going on an astral
> quest
> to learn a new spell? How does it differ from the normal process?

There are no preconditions to going on a quest to learn a spell other than
that the mage needs to have the karma on-hand to learn the spell to begin
with.

-Herc
Message no. 300
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:27:15 EST
In a message dated 2/19/1999 2:32:44 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
NercoLythe@***.com writes:

> 1. When you create an Ally does it know the spells you know at creation or
> do
> you have to learn it for it after creation.

No, you have to learn them seperately. It *DOES* however have your Sorcery
skill at the time of it's creation.

> 2 If my Ally is inhibiting a critter can I give it cybernetic enhancements?

BAD QUESTION!!! TERRIBLE!!! No go think little thoughts over *there*...

Honestly though, I wouldn't allow it. HOWEVER, if there was some kind of way
to perform it like an "iron" bodied homoculi, then it might actually work. I
don't know, I guess I really don't know how I'd react to the idea.

> 3. What is an UGE?

a shortened *huge*??? Unidentified/Unexplained Genetic Expression. Trait
that has been haunting/bother Patrick now for days.... ;-)

> 4. When going through initiation can I go through the same ordeal?

Depends entirely upon the ordeal and the GM's ruling. Thesis, in theory,
could be repeated many times. But, given the idea for how we rule that one,
it's only used every so often instead of all the time.

Metaplanar Quest (NOT Vision Quest) could be used multiple times, and
theoretically is the faster of the quests that I recall immediately.

Oath- No

Ally- technically again yes, but THAT would get really expensive karmically
speaking.

the rest would really be up to GM's call IMO.

> 5. What are the conditions that must be if I plan on going on an astral
> quest
> to learn a new spell? How does it differ from the normal process?

Hermetics must venture to each appropriate metaplanar correspondence (water-
Illusion, fire-combat, etc...). Shamans can only go to the metaplane of their
totem, and then can only learn spells of their immediate benefit (thus, no
Coyote Quests).

Beyond that, again, IMO, GM's call.

-K
Message no. 301
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:03:40 EST
In a message dated 2/19/1999 9:28:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > 4. When going through initiation can I go through the same ordeal?
>
> Ally- technically again yes, but THAT would get really expensive karmically
> speaking.

But then again, could the ally ordeal be used with the same ally that was
created a few grades earlier??

Would the spirit gain an additional force point, and allow the mage to keep
their point of magic at the same time??

Just some thoughts.
-Herc
------ Proud owner of a Wand of Twinkie Creation
Message no. 302
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:56:52 GMT
Hay there you all, most nice to be back, my mail acount had problems,
Fragging free e-mail acounts. Ther where over a thousand mails unread it was
Horrible.
Ok but now lets talk business. Just a couple of fast q.

1.-Do Snipper riffles can be dissarmed? or they dicalibrate?

2.- Where can I download a Shadowrun third eddition player character record
sheet. In tired of going to the paper store to get a copy.

Thanks a lot in advance.
ATTE el MORRIS

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Message no. 303
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 01:39:13 -0800
On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:56:52 GMT "Ignacio De Lucas"
<morrisjila@*******.com> writes:
> Hay there you all, most nice to be back, my mail acount had problems,
>
> Fragging free e-mail acounts. Ther where over a thousand mails unread
it was
> Horrible.
> Ok but now lets talk business. Just a couple of fast q.
>
> 1.-Do Snipper riffles can be dissarmed? or they dicalibrate?

The only sniper rifle (in SR) that is meant to be disassembled is the
Ranger Arms. The others don't come apart... Well, they're not SUPPOSED
to. They definately don't go back together afterwards. ;)

> 2.- Where can I download a Shadowrun third eddition player character
record
> sheet. In tired of going to the paper store to get a copy.

I write custom sheets on my compy and print ... I believe the general
consensus is that Wordman has the best online sheets, however, I'm not
100% certain that they are SR3 (since I don't use them). Additionally, I
do not know the url where you can find them. Try seaching The Archive:
http://shadowrun.html.com, and look for The Shadowrun Archive. I'm sure
you can find some spiffy sheets there (maybe even Wordman's), among other
things. While you're there, you might want to peruse the other sites
(most notably [IMO], the Shadowrun Webring, Herkimer's Lair [Your
one-stop spot for official FASA errata], and TSS [Great material, and
might even have character sheets, but I don't think so.]).

Oh. Visit Bully's page. He probably has some new poll set up about what
vegetable is most likely to overthrow the UCAS, or something ... :)

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 304
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:46:40 -0500
> > 2.- Where can I download a Shadowrun third eddition player character
> record
> > sheet. In tired of going to the paper store to get a copy.
>

I have SR2 ones in Excel, so I'm sure you could modify them. It seems that
the file has been eaten on my site, but I'll try to upload it tonight.

Wildfire (sometimes with a DC)
Terminally Behind SOTA
---
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Message no. 305
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 21:35:58 +0100
According to Ignacio De Lucas, at 6:56 on 24 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> 1.-Do Snipper riffles can be dissarmed? or they dicalibrate?

What do you mean, can they be disarmed? Bombs are disarmed, rifles are
just destroyed :)

As for decalibrating, I take it you mean do they become less accurate (or
do the sights have to be readjusted after a while), right? Both those
apply, but I don't think you can really add this into SR's rule system.
Even a +1 would reflect such a big change in the weapon's accuracy that a
sniper would chuck it away and get a new one...

> 2.- Where can I download a Shadowrun third eddition player character record
> sheet. In tired of going to the paper store to get a copy.

http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/charactersheet.html and
http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/charactersheetlight.html
have sheets in PDF format.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is misschien kankerverwekkend, maar last heb je d'r niet van.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 306
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:46:03 -0500
> > 1.-Do Snipper riffles can be dissarmed? or they dicalibrate?
>
> The only sniper rifle (in SR) that is meant to be disassembled is
the
> Ranger Arms. The others don't come apart... Well, they're not
SUPPOSED
> to. They definately don't go back together afterwards. ;)

I would disagree. Any weapon can be disassembled, especially a sniper
rifle (due to constant recalibration, cleaning, replacement,
maintenance, and those little things snipers do to their rifles) but
the Ranger Arms was designed to be broken up into separate modules (if
this is the term I'm looking for). Presumably, these modules are the
barrel section (which is composed of three pieces, the silencer/gas
vent, a thin bipod, and the barrel), the firing mechanism (because the
weapon is a magazine-based weapon, it also has to be loaded, which can
take awhile), the butt stock, and the imaging scope. Of course, this
is just my assumption; I'm no firearms expert.

Because of this, the Ranger Arms can be assembled on the fly (if a
single Combat Turn is three seconds, then three Combat Turns is nine,
which is unrealistic to me, but what the hey), but other rifles can
take an hour or two (at least) to be put back together again.


AK404
http://freespeech.org/ak404/
Message no. 307
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:16:12 -0700
Gurth wrote:
>According to Ignacio De Lucas, at 6:56 on 24 Nov 99, the word on
>the street was...
>
> > 1.-Do Snipper riffles can be dissarmed? or they dicalibrate?
>
>What do you mean, can they be disarmed? Bombs are disarmed, rifles are
>just destroyed :)

I think he meant, "Can sniper riffles be disassembled, and if so do they
have to be re-sighted after being reassembled?"

Just about any firearm can be disassembled. I think whether being
disassembled would affect a sniper's sights would depend on the quality of
the sniper rifle.

-Graht
--
"There is no wealth but life."
-John Ruskin
Message no. 308
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 07:15:56 GMT
OK i guess my writting wasnt so good, yes I meant disassembled
if today i owned a sniper riffle could I disassmble it or would i have to
carry it comple. I guess for an assasin that would be very anoying. Im
asking if I can put it in a briefcase sized box.
Thanks for your answers.
ATTE el MORRIS

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Message no. 309
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:24:43 +0100
According to Ignacio De Lucas, at 7:15 on 25 Nov 99, the word on the
street was...

> OK i guess my writting wasnt so good, yes I meant disassembled
> if today i owned a sniper riffle could I disassmble it or would i have to
> carry it comple. I guess for an assasin that would be very anoying. Im
> asking if I can put it in a briefcase sized box.

In SR, the Ranger Arms SM-3 can be disassembled and comes with a briefcase
that it neatly fits into. IRL, a sniper rifle that can be disassembled
will be an inaccurate sniper rifle -- the rifle should be as solidly built
as possible (that's why many weigh more than a comparable normal rifle),
but if you can take it apart, there will always be _some_ movement
possible that shouldn't be.

That said, any rifle can be taken apart for cleaning, but that's done in a
different way than you always see in the movies where some assassin puts
together a sniper rifle that comes disassembled in a briefcase.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is misschien kankerverwekkend, maar last heb je d'r niet van.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 310
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:22:46 -0800
On Thu, 25 Nov 1999 07:15:56 GMT "Ignacio De Lucas"
<morrisjila@*******.com> writes:
> OK i guess my writting wasnt so good, yes I meant disassembled
> if today i owned a sniper riffle could I disassmble it or would i have
to
> carry it comple. I guess for an assasin that would be very anoying. Im
> asking if I can put it in a briefcase sized box.
> Thanks for your answers.
> ATTE el MORRIS

In SR, only the Ranger Arms SM-3, page 278 of the BBB3, has that ability.
All others have to be lugged about complete. Remember, Sniper rifles are
NOT (AFAIK) primarily used for sneaky-kill-off-this-guy-and-not-be-seen
missions. Their primary function is as police and military sniper work.
Neither of which really require a rifle that can break down.

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 311
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:03:22 -0500
> 2.- Where can I download a Shadowrun third eddition player
> character record
> sheet. In tired of going to the paper store to get a copy.

http://pobox.com/~wordman/srun/srunsheets.html

Wordman
Message no. 312
From: Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:19:15 -0800 (PST)
During play some questions surfaced.

1. Can you dispel a critter power? If a critter
tags you with confusion ability and leaves still
sustaining the spell, the character is kinda screwd.
Confusion gives a +1/Essence pt to any test, plus
you have to make a INT test just to do something
after you pass that you still got that pluses.

2. If I cast Control Actions on someone, can I
get them to cast a spell? Can the person I cast
CA on dispel it or cast a spell at me?

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Message no. 313
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Questions
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 02:12:02 -0600
:1. Can you dispel a critter power? If a critter
: tags you with confusion ability and leaves still
: sustaining the spell, the character is kinda screwd.
: Confusion gives a +1/Essence pt to any test, plus
: you have to make a INT test just to do something
: after you pass that you still got that pluses.

It can in some cases. The effect of "Petrifying Gaze" specifically
mentions it can be dispelled (use essence in place of force, treat drain as
petrification spell). If you allow it generally, the problem would be
calculating drain on things where there is not eqivalent spell.
Of course, most critters aren't going to sustain powers like confusion
for to long. Even if they wanted to, they need to sleep, if nothing else.
Spirits eventually disapeer at sunrtise / sunset, and elementals use up a
service every 24 hours.

:2. If I cast Control Actions on someone, can I
: get them to cast a spell? Can the person I cast
: CA on dispel it or cast a spell at me?

I'd say no, yes, and yes. You can only control physical actions, afaik.
For the last two, there would likely be some penalty, as they would be
distracted. And obviously, any "gesture" (geas or centering) would be
impossible...

Mongoose
Message no. 314
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 10:25:01 2001
1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?
2. Can't remember this one. :(
3. What's a run that a single mage or shaman could accomplish?
4. Can someone help me out with the healing rules? I get First Aid with
Biotech, and the self healing rules, but I don' follow the rest. How
does hospital care work? And how much does magic healing cost?

Bai Shen
Message no. 315
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 10:35:01 2001
At 11:40 AM 3/7/01 -0500, Bai Shen wrote:
>1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?

In case you want to make it harder to dispel. And I can't remember if the
number of successes is limited by the force, but if it is you want a high
force.

>2. Can't remember this one. :(

That's okay, I forgot the answer ;)

>3. What's a run that a single mage or shaman could accomplish?

Just about any run. A single person just has to be more resourceful :)

>4. Can someone help me out with the healing rules? I get First Aid with
>Biotech, and the self healing rules, but I don' follow the rest. How
>does hospital care work? And how much does magic healing cost?

I personally can't stand the hospital rules and just wing it. I have the
character make a Body test just to make sure there aren't any
complications, and then authoritatively guess at the recovery time.

And yes, I'm back :)

To Life,
-Graht
--
"Anything I have ever done that ultimately was worthwhile....
initially scared me to death."
-Betty Bender
Message no. 316
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 10:55:01 2001
> >1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?
> In case you want to make it harder to dispel. And I can't remember if the
> number of successes is limited by the force, but if it is you want a high
> force.

That the only reason?

> >2. Can't remember this one. :(
> That's okay, I forgot the answer ;)

-chuckle-

> >3. What's a run that a single mage or shaman could accomplish?
> Just about any run. A single person just has to be more resourceful :)

Okay, a non-resourceful mage or shaman.-grin- I jus' need a short side
run since they missed a session.

> >4. Can someone help me out with the healing rules? I get First Aid with
> >Biotech, and the self healing rules, but I don' follow the rest. How
> >does hospital care work? And how much does magic healing cost?
> I personally can't stand the hospital rules and just wing it. I have the
> character make a Body test just to make sure there aren't any
> complications, and then authoritatively guess at the recovery time.

Why don't ya like the hospital rules?

> And yes, I'm back :)

And?

Bai Shen
Message no. 317
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 11:25:01 2001
At 12:08 PM 3/7/01 -0500, Bai Shen wrote:
> > >1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?
> > In case you want to make it harder to dispel. And I can't remember if the
> > number of successes is limited by the force, but if it is you want a high
> > force.
>
>That the only reason?

That I can think of off hand :) I'm sure others will chime in with more.

> > >3. What's a run that a single mage or shaman could accomplish?
> > Just about any run. A single person just has to be more resourceful :)
>
>Okay, a non-resourceful mage or shaman.-grin- I jus' need a short side
>run since they missed a session.

For those I prefer interpersonal roleplaying adventures. A friend, family
member, or contact needs the PC's help. It doesn't have to be anything
big. They need someone to take care of their dog while they're on
vacation, are looking for someone to invest in a business opportunity, want
someone to act as bodyguard while they visit a client in a seedy part of
town, etc. Basically a leave the guns at home mini adventure.

> > >4. Can someone help me out with the healing rules? I get First Aid with
> > >Biotech, and the self healing rules, but I don' follow the rest. How
> > >does hospital care work? And how much does magic healing cost?
> > I personally can't stand the hospital rules and just wing it. I have the
> > character make a Body test just to make sure there aren't any
> > complications, and then authoritatively guess at the recovery time.
>
>Why don't ya like the hospital rules?

Well, for one medical science and healing times in hospitals are
hypocritical to me. Whereas medical science can implant incredibly
advanced cyber and bioware, recovery rates for injuries while under
hospital care aren't much better than today's standards. Also, there are
just to many numbers for my taste. And it's just a personal preference :)

> > And yes, I'm back :)
>
>And?

Well, maybe not so big a deal to you, but it is to me. I've missed
ShadowRN for the last five months or so :)

To Life,
-Graht
--
To Life,
-Graht
--
"Be kind; for everyone is having a hard battle."
-Plato
Message no. 318
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 11:30:01 2001
Bai Shen writes:

> > >1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?
> > In case you want to make it harder to dispel. And I can't remember if the
> > number of successes is limited by the force, but if it is you want a high
> > force.
>
> That the only reason?

I believe that the Force of the spell is the Target Number for resistance
tests made to see through it. So if a character is under the influence of an
Invisibility spell with a Force of 1 and 3 successes, then an observer needs
to achieve 3 successes on a Perception Test with a target number of 2
(minimum Target Number) to see them. On the other hand, a Force 6 spell
makes the Target Number 6...

> Okay, a non-resourceful mage or shaman.-grin- I jus' need a short side
> run since they missed a session.

Ritual sorcery or tracking. Very often magic deficient teams contract out
for this type of magical support. Of course, in the SR world, things rarely
turn out the way you might have expected or hoped, so it's easy to
complicate even a simple job like ritual sorcery. Say, for example, he's
hired for a quick moonlight job by a team who've just had their main lead in
a run escape during a firefight. They're standing around a pool of their
(ex)leads blood, and call up the runner. He has to go to the scene of the
crime, sample a bit of blood, peform the ritual, and tell the team where the
guy is. Now, you can begin thinking of complications to make the run a
little more interesting and exciting. Perhaps the scene of the crime is a
corporate arcology that the team just penetrated, and so your magician must
secretely get to them to get the blood sample. They may be able to assist
getting through security, as they are already through it themselves.
Perhaps the scene is a street in downtown, and Lone Star arrives
before/during/slightly after the magician does. Maybe the target of the
tracking traces it back and sends people to respond in the real world. Use
your imagination, and tailor something to suit the magician in question.

> > >4. Can someone help me out with the healing rules? I get First Aid with
> > >Biotech, and the self healing rules, but I don' follow the rest. How
> > >does hospital care work? And how much does magic healing cost?

Which healing rules are you referring to? The SR3 ones, or the M&M ones?
The M&M ones are a little unclear, but if you follow them step by step they
makes sense. I can't see a problem with the SR3 ones, really, except that
it's not all that clear what dice to roll. In this case, I think it's a
natural Body test on the part of the patient, with a TN determined from the
little table (4 for Light, 6 for Moderate, 8 for Serious, etc.), with
modifiers from a nearby table. Hospital care gives modifiers to the TN to
make it easier to heal. Hospitalisation is also a required lifestyle for
folks recovering from Deadly wounds, I recall.

As for magical healing, it costs as much as the healer wants it to. There
are no set rules, because magically active individuals are about 1 in 100.
Individuals who are aware of their talent and trained are 1 in 100 of
those. Full magicians are 1 in 100 of those. So, you see, there are
something like 10 people capable of casting spells (aspected or full
magicians) per million population. What are the odds of them casting
healing spells at a hospital, when they can be out shadowrunning? <smirk>
Esentially what I am trying to say is that it's a sellers market, so if you
can find someone willing to heal you magically for ANY price, you're doing
pretty well. For the record, I use a base fee of a thousand nuyen per force
of spell. Note that in the Germany Sourcebook, a contract with their
equivalent of DocWagon(TM), but with magical healing, costs about twice that
of a normal contract. So if you like, perhaps you could determine magical
healing costs by doubling normal healing costs. This seems a bit low to me,
though.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a24 C++ US++>+++ P+ L++>+++ E- W+>++ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@
M-- V- PS+ PE(-) Y+>++ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X++>+++ R+(++) !tv(--) b+ DI+++@
D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 319
From: shadowrn@*********.com (robert frazine)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 11:35:01 2001
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Bai Shen wrote:

>
> > >1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?
> > In case you want to make it harder to dispel. And I can't remember if the
> > number of successes is limited by the force, but if it is you want a high
> > force.
>
> That the only reason?


I think that the force of the spell is the target to resist. Invisibility
is an Indirect Illusion, which I thought meant a resisted test by anyone
who could be affected by the spell.
Message no. 320
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 11:55:01 2001
Other people have answered the other stuff, but I'll hit this one.

On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Bai Shen wrote:

> 1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?

Because Invisibility is a resisted illusion. When casting the
spell, keep track of the number of your successes. Any time someone may
be affected by your illusion (i.e. any time someone is in a position to
observe the invisible character), they need to make a resistance check
against your spell. The resistance is test is made with their
Intelligence attribute, and the target number is the force of the spell.
If the observer gets fewer successes on their resistance test than
the mage did when casting the spell, the observer's Perception Tests to
detect the character are subject to a +8 modifier (wihch is the same as
the modifier for blind fire or total darkness, i.e. not being able to see
the target). If the observer gets *more* successes on the resistance test
than the mage did when casting a spell, the observer's Perception test is
at the base target number for the given conditions.
If the force of the spell is a 1, it's butt-simple for a halfway
intelligent observer to break through the illusion. So while you're
standing around like a dope thinking "they can't see me," the goons are
drawing their SMG's and switching to burst fire.
Please note that like all other sight modifiers, only the highest
applies. In other words, invisibility is totally useless in pitch
darkness (as you will *not* get the +8 for invisibility on top of the +8
for total darkness).
Make sense?

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
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Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
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David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 321
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael S. Bobroff)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 12:05:04 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bai Shen" <baishen@**********.com>


> 1. Why would I need invisibility at a force
higher than 1?
> 2. Can't remember this one. :(

I haven't been awake long enough to tackle of
these ... :}

> 3. What's a run that a single mage or shaman
could accomplish?

Excuse me, alone? A shaman or mage in this
situation would make sure he/she/it has as many
spirits, whether they be elementals, nature
spirits, or watchers at their side. As for why
they'd do it alone, well, going after a small
magic shop would seem like something a mage could
do on their own. Everything depends on how well
rounded the mage/shaman is and their approach to
any and all types of runs.

> 4. Can someone help me out with the healing
rules? I get First Aid with
> Biotech, and the self healing rules, but I don'
follow the rest. How
> does hospital care work? And how much does
magic healing cost?

Okay ... your pc has been in combat big-time (the
players in my game have been in three games of
solid combat ...) and is hurt ... here's the steps
...

1) First Aid must be done prior to any form of
magical healing ...
2) Apply magical healing ...
3) Self-healing kicks in ...

As for the costs at a hospital ...

-- Just being there brings a cost all of it's own
... so scope out the section in the SR3 ...
-- Costs for healing magics ... these sound like
decent costs ...

__Wound Status__Cost__
L (Skill of Mage) x 250
M (Skill of Mage) x 500
S (Skill of Mage) x
2,500
D (Skill of Mage) x
25,000

Enjoy,
-Mike
Message no. 322
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Travis K. Heldibridle)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 12:10:01 2001
>>> 1. Why would I need invisibility at a
>>> force higher than 1?


>> In case you want to make it harder to
>> dispel. And I can't remember if the
>> number of successes is limited by the
>> force, but if it is you want a high
>> force.


> That the only reason?

Well... others have given resistance as a reason. Which is a great one.
Although I wouldn't take dispelling lightly. I have used it several times
against the PC mage in my campaign. It only makes sense that a mage would
target any weak link he can find on a target mage.



Thank you,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 323
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 12:20:01 2001
> >Okay, a non-resourceful mage or shaman.-grin- I jus' need a short side
> >run since they missed a session.
> For those I prefer interpersonal roleplaying adventures. A friend, family
> member, or contact needs the PC's help. It doesn't have to be anything
> big. They need someone to take care of their dog while they're on
> vacation, are looking for someone to invest in a business opportunity, want
> someone to act as bodyguard while they visit a client in a seedy part of
> town, etc. Basically a leave the guns at home mini adventure.

-nods- 'bout half of the groups runs so far have been from sources
other than their fixers.

> >Why don't ya like the hospital rules?
> Well, for one medical science and healing times in hospitals are
> hypocritical to me. Whereas medical science can implant incredibly
> advanced cyber and bioware, recovery rates for injuries while under
> hospital care aren't much better than today's standards. Also, there are
> just to many numbers for my taste. And it's just a personal preference :)

Ah.

> >And?
> Well, maybe not so big a deal to you, but it is to me. I've missed
> ShadowRN for the last five months or so :)

-chuckle-

Bai Shen
Message no. 324
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 12:25:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.com>
Subject: Questions


> 1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?

My brain might be fried, but I think I recall a rule that the force of the
spell also affects the number of 1's that can be rolled to determine a
botch. Example. A force 1 spell cast by a sorcerer that rolls 2 1's. He
just flubbed his invis. If he had a force 3, (and at least 1 success)
everything is A OK. So watch out for too much pool.

Then again I might be mixing editions and/or games. My brain feels like
runny tapioca in a frying pan. Constant weather changes are hell. : P Oh
well North Carolina for you, not even the weather is right in the head. : )

> 2. Can't remember this one. :(

I think I remember what the question is! Do you have the answer? I forgot.
: P

Ahrain
Searcing for a friendly storm spirit
Message no. 325
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 14:25:01 2001
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:25:53 -0500 "Ahrain Drigar"
<Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com> writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.com>
> Subject: Questions
<SNIP>
> > 2. Can't remember this one. :(

> I think I remember what the question is! Do you have the answer? I
> forgot.
> : P

42. Now, what's the question?

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 326
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 16:05:01 2001
At 11:40 a.m. 07/03/01, Bai Shen wrote:
>1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?

PCs and NPCs who will be affected by the spell, in other words the guys
that won't see you, make a resistance with a Target Number equal to the
force. The higher the force, the more difficult for them to resist the
spell. You can balance that with sorcery, as what counts is the number of
net successes. But to be sure is better to have both high :)

This happened with a shaman in my group once. They were triying infiltrate
some place, and he said: "Don't worry guys, I'll make myself invisible", he
casted the spell and I made all the PCs resist it. None of them failed the
resistance test, and the rest ended asking: "So ... When are you going to
turn yourself invisible?" ...

Moral: Don't be cheap when assigning the force to your spells :)

Pepe
Message no. 327
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 17:00:03 2001
At 12:05 07/03/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> > Okay, a non-resourceful mage or shaman.-grin- I jus' need a short side
> > run since they missed a session.

Hey, you have a mage alone in your mits for a few hours ? Don't miss that,
make what you can't do when the mage is with all his mundane buddies: a
full fledged astral quest ! If he his initiated, he can be looking for some
info, trying to gain a new level of initiation (even the first), seeking a
spell formula, helping a mage pal or even a spirit/ally, or even maybe just
enjoying "tourism"... If he is not initiated, well there are always those
free spirits and their astral gateway power, and who knows, maybe one of
them need a little backup, or a witness, or something funny to show to his
spirit collegues, whatever. There are endless motivations. What's really
enjoyable however, is that you can create whatever totally whacked out
metaplane, with weird logics, parodic or disturbing atmospheres, cryptic
symbolism, the range goes from Alice in Wonderland to Hannibal Lecter's
subconscious...

You would have to stick to some common features though: the Dweller at the
Threshold, and a global theme on the metaplane, that has its own denizens
(though self-motivated quests can be strongly bent by the will of the
questor, e.g. initiation quests for mages, not necessarily for shamans)...
And even then, how can be like the metaplane of chaos ? Will you meet
Arioch the free spirit there ?

And eventualy, maybe your player will know what spirits do when they are doing
"stuff" ;-).

Molloy
Message no. 328
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 18:00:01 2001
"David Buehrer" <DavidB@********.com> wrote:
>
> > > And yes, I'm back :)
> >
> >And?
>
> Well, maybe not so big a deal to you, but it is to me. I've missed
> ShadowRN for the last five months or so :)
>
> To Life,
> -Graht
> --

WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(And don't think we didn't notice. :)

Zebulin
Message no. 329
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 18:40:00 2001
> > > >1. Why would I need invisibility at a force
higher than 1?
> > > In case you want to make it harder to dispel.
And I can't remember if the number of successes is
limited by the force, but if it is you want a high
force.

I'm pretty sure it isn't, Graht.

> > That the only reason?
>
> I believe that the Force of the spell is the Target
Number for resistance tests made to see through it.
So if a character is under the influence of an
Invisibility spell with a Force of 1 and 3 successes,
then an observer needs to achieve 3 successes on a
Perception Test with a target number of 2 (minimum
Target Number) to see them. On the other hand, a
Force 6 spell makes the Target Number 6...
<snipt!(TM)>
> Damion Milliken

That's certainly true...however, on the OTHER hand
(the third hand, that is...;) ), force don't mean
squat if you roll enough dice.

Why? Check this. The number of successes required to
beat an invisibility spell (or most illusions for that
matter) is equal to the number of successes rolled on
the spell test. If you've only got a force 1, you're
going to be rolling against 2M drain, and you can
probably get that just with your willpower. That means
you can devote the rest of your dice - skill, spell
pool, foci, elemental aid etc. - to the success test.
Throw in a karma pool reroll and you're likely to get
a LOT of successes.

Even if the guy's only rolling against a target of 1,
he STILL has to have an Intelligence of at least 10 to
beat a spell if you rolled 10 successes...

Now I'm not saying I like this...I'm just saying how
it is.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 330
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 18:45:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Please note that like all other sight modifiers,
only the highest applies. In other words,
invisibility is totally useless in pitch darkness (as
you will *not* get the +8 for invisibility on top of
the +8 for total darkness).
> Make sense?
> Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

*snort*

You're a silly, little fella, ain'tcha, Mark?

Ain't ya never heard a' thermographic vision?

;)

Seriously, Invisibility is NEVER useless. You just
don't know WHAT vision enhancements the opposition
has. The one time it won't help you is if they're all
loaded up with ultrasound 'vision'...I think. I'm
pretty sure it's been stated officially that
Invisibility doesn't work against ultrasound.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 331
From: shadowrn@*********.com (smUgE)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 18:50:01 2001
> 1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?
> 2. Can't remember this one. :(
> 3. What's a run that a single mage or shaman could accomplish?

I love little runs. It keeps the runners guessing at what what should
connect to what. Who should they remember? Is this part of a bigger
campaign? It also set up a routine. If you don't know what your routine
is, how do you know when something is weird?

The easiest for a single mage is to be hired magic for another team. The
next question is what is the mage like? What are their skills? What are
their interests? What are their contacts? What did they do before they ran
the shadows with a team of gun toting thugs?

I have a mage that can easily pick up solo work, as that is what she did
prior to the larger scoring team work. She was a body guard. She has lots
of detect spells and 2 elemental to help with enforcement.

It depends on the strengths of the mage. What makes sense that they would
do?
Message no. 332
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Questions
Date: Wed Mar 7 20:40:00 2001
> Hey, you have a mage alone in your mits for a few hours ? Don't
miss that, make what you can't do when the mage is with all his
mundane buddies: a full fledged astral quest !
> Molloy

I LOVE this idea! It's perfect, 'cause when the heck do you get to
do an astral quest? In a group, never (unless you're playing HB,
that is). And it's great because it can be however long or short you
need it to be, at whatever level of difficulty.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 333
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Andrew Gryphon)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 00:10:00 2001
on 3/7/01 11:40 AM, Bai Shen at baishen@**********.com can't deny saying:
> 3. What's a run that a single mage or shaman could accomplish?

Initiate? Metaplanes quest for info. Also, my favorite "quickie" runs are
the encounters in Sprawl Sites. Am I the only one on this list still using
1st edition?

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 334
From: shadowrn@*********.com (night/KHAM)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 05:45:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bai Shen" <baishen@**********.com>


> > >1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?
> > In case you want to make it harder to dispel. And I can't remember if
the
> > number of successes is limited by the force, but if it is you want a
high
> > force.
>
> That the only reason?

AFAIK is the force level the target number for the victim to see the
invisible char (INT Check or WIL)
so at 1 you dont need to cast him :)
---
night/KHAM
Message no. 335
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 06:00:01 2001
According to Bai Shen, on Wed, 07 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> 1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?

To make it harder to see through, because the Force is the TN for any
resistance tests made against the spell. You still want lots of successes,
and if you can roll those then you don't really need a high Force (because
if you get 5 successes then there is no way someone with Intelligence 4 is
going to see through it regardless of what their TN is) but otherwise, a
high Force is handy to have for this spell (and most others).

> 2. Can't remember this one. :(

Having a problem with the number 2? :)

> 4. Can someone help me out with the healing rules? I get First Aid with
> Biotech, and the self healing rules, but I don' follow the rest. How
> does hospital care work?

With a doctor taking care of you, you still roll your Body test, but you
apply the modifiers from the Doctoring Table on page 128 of SR3, thereby
dropping your TN.

I'll grant you that all this is rather inconsistent; IMHO you don't apply
any negative modifiers unless a doctor is treating you, but all positive
modifiers do apply in all cases. However, that is not mentioned specifically
in SR3.

(Also note that I'm only concerned with the SR3 rules here; Mongoose will be
better qualified to explain the M&M rules :)

> And how much does magic healing cost?

For that, I would refer you to M&M, since that's the only place where FASA
has published costs for magical health care.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 336
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 06:00:08 2001
According to Ahrain Drigar, on Wed, 07 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> > 1. Why would I need invisibility at a force higher than 1?
>
> My brain might be fried, but I think I recall a rule that the force of the
> spell also affects the number of 1's that can be rolled to determine a
> botch. Example. A force 1 spell cast by a sorcerer that rolls 2 1's. He
> just flubbed his invis. If he had a force 3, (and at least 1 success)
> everything is A OK. So watch out for too much pool.

Only if all the dice roll 1s does the spell go wrong (SR3, p. 182 under
Sorcery Test). Calling it a fumble when a number of 1s equal to the Force
have been rolled is not a good idea, IMHO, because that means that
low-Force spells are much more likely to get messed up than high-Force
ones; it'd be like a set of rules that makes a firecracker more dangerous
than a hand grenade...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 337
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 10:35:01 2001
> > 2. Can't remember this one. :(
> Having a problem with the number 2? :)

Can't dissapoint my legions of fans, now can I? :)

> > 4. Can someone help me out with the healing rules? I get First Aid with
> > Biotech, and the self healing rules, but I don' follow the rest. How
> > does hospital care work?
> With a doctor taking care of you, you still roll your Body test, but you
> apply the modifiers from the Doctoring Table on page 128 of SR3, thereby
> dropping your TN.
> I'll grant you that all this is rather inconsistent; IMHO you don't apply
> any negative modifiers unless a doctor is treating you, but all positive
> modifiers do apply in all cases. However, that is not mentioned specifically
> in SR3.
> (Also note that I'm only concerned with the SR3 rules here; Mongoose will be
> better qualified to explain the M&M rules :)

Okay. I thought there was more to it than that.

> > And how much does magic healing cost?
> For that, I would refer you to M&M, since that's the only place where FASA
> has published costs for magical health care.

Where? I couldn't find them.

Bai Shen
Message no. 338
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 11:55:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Questions


According to Ahrain Drigar, on Wed, 07 Mar 2001 the word on the street
was...

<SNIP ME>

>Only if all the dice roll 1s does the spell go wrong (SR3, p. 182 under
>Sorcery Test). Calling it a fumble when a number of 1s equal to the Force
>have been rolled is not a good idea, IMHO, because that means that
>low-Force spells are much more likely to get messed up than high-Force
>ones; it'd be like a set of rules that makes a firecracker more dangerous
>than a hand grenade...

I hate not having my SR books at work, *pout*

Must have been a house rule then, sorry.

I see your point in a way, it greatly depending on how you look at it.

example, (now this in IMHO so disagree if you want)
Sorcery and pool is how much well and how well you can get the juice through
to do what you want. Spells are the way that juice manifests. If you are
not that "skilled" in applying the juice in a certain way (ie low force
levels) then it can get pretty dangerous putting that much into it.

Sorta like pumping ALOT of high voltage electricity through a wall plug
(force 1) or a power line (force 6). You are the transformer regulating the
power, but you can only put so much through a wall cord before i really
hurts.

This may only be me, but it work pretty good so far. (I also let mages
regulate the dice they roll for Sorcery. Don't remember if it's Canon that
way but it's been a while since I've run)

Just my 2 cents worth.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 339
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 14:00:01 2001
According to Bai Shen, on Thu, 08 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> Okay. I thought there was more to it than that.

It's actually very simple, but the explanation in the book isn't all it
could have been.

> > > And how much does magic healing cost?
> > For that, I would refer you to M&M, since that's the only place where FASA
> > has published costs for magical health care.
>
> Where? I couldn't find them.

Page 151 has an entry on the Surgical Costs Table for "Magical care
provided: 500Y per day." Hmm... I thought there was more, but it must have
been my memory playing tricks on me...

In that case, I'll plug issue 6 of the NAGEE, which has an article by Tony
Moller about costs for magical care :) Http://plastic.dumpshock.com/nagee
points you (almost) directly to it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 340
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 14:00:04 2001
According to Ahrain Drigar, on Thu, 08 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> example, (now this in IMHO so disagree if you want)
> Sorcery and pool is how much well and how well you can get the juice through
> to do what you want. Spells are the way that juice manifests. If you are
> not that "skilled" in applying the juice in a certain way (ie low force
> levels) then it can get pretty dangerous putting that much into it.

Yes, but that does mean that if you have a Force 1 spell and a Sorcery skill
of 6, you are virtually guaranteed to mess up (statistically, one of the
dice will roll a 1, causing the botch/fumble/whatever), while someone with a
Sorcery skill of 1 will only have a one-in-six chance of fumbling
regardless of the Force of the spell, even though there can be much more
"juice" flowing around and it's certainly being handled with a lot less
care.

> Sorta like pumping ALOT of high voltage electricity through a wall plug
> (force 1) or a power line (force 6). You are the transformer regulating the
> power, but you can only put so much through a wall cord before i really
> hurts.

By your rules, a near-wrecked, third-hand transformer will then be better
able to handle that power than a brand-new, heavy-duty one...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 341
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 14:10:01 2001
> Page 151 has an entry on the Surgical Costs Table for "Magical care
> provided: 500Y per day." Hmm... I thought there was more, but it must have
> been my memory playing tricks on me...

-nods-

> In that case, I'll plug issue 6 of the NAGEE, which has an article by Tony
> Moller about costs for magical care :) Http://plastic.dumpshock.com/nagee
> points you (almost) directly to it.

I remember that article. I jus' thought there was similiar stuff
actually printed in a book. :)

Bai Shen
Message no. 342
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 14:15:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Questions


According to Ahrain Drigar, on Thu, 08 Mar 2001 the word on the street
was...

>Yes, but that does mean that if you have a Force 1 spell and a Sorcery
skill
>of 6, you are virtually guaranteed to mess up (statistically, one of the
>dice will roll a 1, causing the botch/fumble/whatever), while someone with
a
>Sorcery skill of 1 will only have a one-in-six chance of fumbling
>regardless of the Force of the spell, even though there can be much more
>"juice" flowing around and it's certainly being handled with a lot less
>care.

Just had my file sent to me at work. It is a house rule. And the # of 1's
rolled effects only pool thrown in.

I agree, it did sound kinda screw yanked the other way.

Does it make any more sense now? Or is it still screw yanked? It's worked
fine so far, but I'm always open for suggestions.

Ahrain
Message no. 343
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 15:25:01 2001
At 07:38 PM 3/8/01 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>According to Bai Shen, on Thu, 08 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...
>
> > Okay. I thought there was more to it than that.
>
>It's actually very simple, but the explanation in the book isn't all it
>could have been.
>
> > > > And how much does magic healing cost?
> > > For that, I would refer you to M&M, since that's the only place where
> FASA
> > > has published costs for magical health care.
> >
> > Where? I couldn't find them.
>
>Page 151 has an entry on the Surgical Costs Table for "Magical care
>provided: 500Y per day." Hmm... I thought there was more, but it must have
>been my memory playing tricks on me...

Off hand I'd apply a x5 multiplier to magical healing at a hospital, or
similar clinic, with a further stipulation that magical healing is only
available to people who are members of a rather expensive health plan (or a
certain corporate rank ;)

To Life,
-Graht
--
To Life,
-Graht
--
"Apparently I'm insane. But I'm one of the happy kinds!"
-Wally
Message no. 344
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: Questions
Date: Thu Mar 8 23:30:01 2001
From: "Andrew Gryphon" <webmaster@*********.com>
> on 3/7/01 11:40 AM, Bai Shen at baishen@**********.com can't deny saying:
> > 3. What's a run that a single mage or shaman could accomplish?
>
> Initiate? Metaplanes quest for info. Also, my favorite "quickie" runs are
> the encounters in Sprawl Sites. Am I the only one on this list still using
> 1st edition?

Heh. No. Not at all. Actually, I just recently picked up a copy of Virtual
Realities [1.0, of course] for US$5 at a local bookstore. Managed to get
Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life and NAN Vol. 1 for the same price at the
same time. Of course, I still have my original copies, but those are
long-since unbound and three-ring bound. These are /mint./
Message no. 345
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri Mar 9 05:40:01 2001
According to Ahrain Drigar, on Thu, 08 Mar 2001 the word on the street
was...

> Just had my file sent to me at work. It is a house rule. And the # of 1's
> rolled effects only pool thrown in.

That last bit, I don't understand... Do you mean the old FoF rule where you
fumble if you roll a number of ones equal to your basic skill rating,
regardless of how many dice you roll?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 346
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri Mar 9 11:45:00 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Questions


According to Ahrain Drigar, on Thu, 08 Mar 2001 the word on the street
was...

>> Just had my file sent to me at work. It is a house rule. And the # of
1's
>> rolled effects only pool thrown in.

>That last bit, I don't understand... Do you mean the old FoF rule where you
>fumble if you roll a number of ones equal to your basic skill rating,
>regardless of how many dice you roll?

OK, Sorcerer rolls his 3 sorcery with 3 pool vs. TN#4 spell. Spell is force
3. He rolls on his regular sorcery dice a 1,3,4 and on his pool 1,1,2. He
has 1 success and no prob. If he rolls no successes, no prob again, but if
he were to roll 2,2,3 and 1,1,1. BIG BooBoo. Too much power and blamo with
too little knowledge of the spell.

I think it might have been adapted from the FoF rule. My memory isn't the
greatest. I forget my name answering the phone sometimes. (not forgetting
to mention, just forgetting)

Ahrain
Message no. 347
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Questions
Date: Sat Mar 10 05:30:18 2001
According to Ahrain Drigar, on Fri, 09 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> OK, Sorcerer rolls his 3 sorcery with 3 pool vs. TN#4 spell. Spell is force
> 3. He rolls on his regular sorcery dice a 1,3,4 and on his pool 1,1,2. He
> has 1 success and no prob. If he rolls no successes, no prob again, but if
> he were to roll 2,2,3 and 1,1,1. BIG BooBoo. Too much power and blamo with
> too little knowledge of the spell.

Ah, okay, now I understand. Basically, the more pool you throw in, the
greater the chance of fumbling because the chance of rolling enough ones on
pool dice only.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 348
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Questions
Date: Sat Mar 10 13:10:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Questions


According to Ahrain Drigar, on Fri, 09 Mar 2001 the word on the street
was...

>Ah, okay, now I understand. Basically, the more pool you throw in, the
>greater the chance of fumbling because the chance of rolling enough ones on
>pool dice only.

Yup. Mages are still just as useful, but makes them think a little before
they say "Hey, It's just a dragon..." If they have allot of pool and foci.
You can run a reactor at 110% but be careful.

Anybody have any ideas, additions, or critics about it? It's worked well so
far, but I haven't run in quite a while and I'd like a little feed back if
everyone's not ignoring me because of another little thread. : B

Ahrain

*Ahrain stand back and watches the creature spawning from Alfredo's and
Serendipity's surreal mentality combine.........IT'S ALIVE!!! IT'S ALIVE!!!!
Whimper : P*
Message no. 349
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Questions
Date: Mon Mar 12 09:45:01 2001
At 01:08 PM 3/10/01 -0500, Ahrain Drigar wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>Subject: Re: Questions
>
>
>According to Ahrain Drigar, on Fri, 09 Mar 2001 the word on the street
>was...
>
> >Ah, okay, now I understand. Basically, the more pool you throw in, the
> >greater the chance of fumbling because the chance of rolling enough ones on
> >pool dice only.
>
>Yup. Mages are still just as useful, but makes them think a little before
>they say "Hey, It's just a dragon..." If they have allot of pool and foci.
>You can run a reactor at 110% but be careful.
>
>Anybody have any ideas, additions, or critics about it? It's worked well so
>far, but I haven't run in quite a while and I'd like a little feed back if
>everyone's not ignoring me because of another little thread. : B

I like it :)

To Life,
-Graht
--
To Life,
-Graht
--
"Apparently I'm insane. But I'm one of the happy kinds!"
-Wally
Message no. 350
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri Jan 11 12:15:01 2002
I need some help to where I can find some stuff on the web:

1. The Shadowrunners Ten Commanments
2. Somewhere I once found a more detailed dealer system. The contact had
extra points for each field of warez, like electronics, magic, shadowruners
and such, with a rating from usually 1 to 8. The runner'd roll ettiquette to
determine if the dealer actually did _anythin_ for him, and then the
dealer'd roll _something_ to determine how fast it would be. Where can I
find those? TSS, Archives, something like that? Might also be from a german
site.

-- GAK THE GREAT

"Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden,
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn."
Sauron aus "Herr der Ringe von J.R.R. Tolkien
Message no. 351
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Malcolm)
Subject: Questions
Date: Fri Jan 11 18:50:00 2002
Gak, said....


> I need some help to where I can find some stuff on the web:
>
> 1. The Shadowrunners Ten Commanments

no clues for this one but we did have posted here some ideas


> 2. Somewhere I once found a more detailed dealer system. The contact had
> extra points for each field of warez, like electronics, magic,
shadowruners
> and such, with a rating from usually 1 to 8. The runner'd roll ettiquette
to
> determine if the dealer actually did _anythin_ for him, and then the
> dealer'd roll _something_ to determine how fast it would be. Where can I
> find those? TSS, Archives, something like that? Might also be from a
german
> site.

You will find what your looking for (i think) at UOL - the most excelent web
site owned buy the Lady Jester.
http://uol.dumpshock.com/

Hope this helps.....

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