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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:53:26 -0400
Hoi again, folks :)

I have some gun-related questions that I am hoping those of you who
actually know something about guns can help me with.

First, what kind of TN modifier would you apply to someone who only has the
use of one arm and is trying to use a two-handed gun (rifle, machine gun,
etc.)? Would you let them use one at all? How does the loss of the use of
one arm affect recoil mods for all types of guns (even pistols, etc.). I
have always assumed you COULD use a pistol only one-handed, but it might
not be good on your wrists and your recoil may be worse. I dunno, though.

Second, how to you determine whether a round goes thorough someone, or
stays in their body?

This is how I would handle it, but I could be flawed in my reasoning:

If a person is hit via the normal rules, you would do the following: let's
say a person's body has a Ballistic and Impact Rating of 1 (maybe more?
perhaps Callistic is lower than Impact rating). Subtract that number from
the remaining power of the bullet. Then, if there's any power left, it
exits their body, but then you would have to subtract their Ballistic armor
rating AGAIN to see if it exits the rear of their body and keeps going.

Of course, you would only use that last step if it could have an effect on
the game. For example, someone was standing directly behind the person you
are shooting, etc.

Should there be a chance that the bullet will get lodged in the body
somewhere, though? Like using a d6 to determine if it can make it though
the body, even though it has the Power level remaining to do so? Also, can
bullets be healed in the body without ill effects, depending on where they
are lodged?

Suggestions? :)

Thanks,

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: Daniel Gelinsky <dunkelzahn@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:05:44 -0700
> First, what kind of TN modifier would you apply to someone who only has the
> use of one arm and is trying to use a two-handed gun (rifle, machine gun,
> etc.)? Would you let them use one at all? How does the loss of the use of
> one arm affect recoil mods for all types of guns (even pistols, etc.).

Since this is not covered in the rules AFAIK, I would probably rule like
this. For a person unable to use one arm trying to fire a two handed
gun, recoil mods are tripled, and the base target number would be +4.
Its harsh, but realistic IMHO.

>
> Second, how to you determine whether a round goes thorough someone, or
> stays in their body?
>
> This is how I would handle it, but I could be flawed in my reasoning:
>
> If a person is hit via the normal rules, you would do the following: let's
> say a person's body has a Ballistic and Impact Rating of 1 (maybe more?
> perhaps Callistic is lower than Impact rating). Subtract that number from
> the remaining power of the bullet. Then, if there's any power left, it
> exits their body, but then you would have to subtract their Ballistic armor
> rating AGAIN to see if it exits the rear of their body and keeps going.

Well, I would just say that the human (metahuman) has a barrier rating
equal to their body score, then I would subtract the body's barrier
rating from remaining power (after armor) If any power was left, the
bullet exits the body, hitting whatever was behind it with a power level
equal to what was left.
Daniel Gelinske (WarChylde)
http://inetarena.com/~dunkelzahn/main.html
dunkelzahn@*********.com
Message no. 3
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 00:37:28 +0100
In article <199709052258.SAA27594@****.provide.net>, Justin Pinnow
<vanyel@*******.NET> writes
>Hoi again, folks :)
>
>I have some gun-related questions that I am hoping those of you who
>actually know something about guns can help me with.
>
>First, what kind of TN modifier would you apply to someone who only has the
>use of one arm and is trying to use a two-handed gun (rifle, machine gun,
>etc.)? Would you let them use one at all? How does the loss of the use of
>one arm affect recoil mods for all types of guns (even pistols, etc.). I
>have always assumed you COULD use a pistol only one-handed, but it might
>not be good on your wrists and your recoil may be worse. I dunno, though.

Has he got a prosthetic or similar?

I'd apply a penalty (say +2 or even +4) in general. If the shooter has
time to brace the weapon on a bipod, for instance, then he can shoot
normally except I'd double recoil modifiers (firing semi-auto is no
problem, but autofire would be very difficult)

>Second, how to you determine whether a round goes thorough someone, or
>stays in their body?

Never really been an issue...

>This is how I would handle it, but I could be flawed in my reasoning:
>
>If a person is hit via the normal rules, you would do the following: let's
>say a person's body has a Ballistic and Impact Rating of 1 (maybe more?
>perhaps Callistic is lower than Impact rating).

I'd treat people as Barriers with rating 4, or maybe 3 + (Body / 2),
plus appropriate armour.

Don't forget explosive, gel and flechette will almost never
overpenetrate, while APDS is very likely to.

>Should there be a chance that the bullet will get lodged in the body
>somewhere, though? Like using a d6 to determine if it can make it though
>the body, even though it has the Power level remaining to do so?

I'd only bother in cases where it really mattered. But, someone in no
armour shot by a heavy pistol or SMG will have the bullets blow through,
while if they're in an armour jacket the rounds will be stopped. Either
keep it simple or work out the odds ahead of time.

>Also, can
>bullets be healed in the body without ill effects, depending on where they
>are lodged?

There are plenty of people around with encysted bullets et cetera in
their bodies. So, yes. (If the healing fails it's maybe because the
bullet has to be removed: remember, removing it can do more damage than
leaving it in place)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 03:45:50 GMT
On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:53:26 -0400, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> Hoi again, folks :)
>
> I have some gun-related questions that I am hoping those of you who
> actually know something about guns can help me with.
>
> First, what kind of TN modifier would you apply to someone who only has the
> use of one arm and is trying to use a two-handed gun (rifle, machine gun,
> etc.)? Would you let them use one at all? How does the loss of the use of
> one arm affect recoil mods for all types of guns (even pistols, etc.). I
> have always assumed you COULD use a pistol only one-handed, but it might
> not be good on your wrists and your recoil may be worse. I dunno, though.

Aiming a longarm with *only* one hand is very difficult indeed, unless
the weapon has a stock that you can fit under your arm. Recoil would
be a royal pain, though.

Pistols are *meant* to be fired one-handed, although they will benefit
from using two hands (more stability, allowing better accuracy at
longer ranges).

> Second, how to you determine whether a round goes thorough someone, or
> stays in their body?
>
> This is how I would handle it, but I could be flawed in my reasoning:
>
> If a person is hit via the normal rules, you would do the following: let's
> say a person's body has a Ballistic and Impact Rating of 1 (maybe more?
> perhaps Callistic is lower than Impact rating). Subtract that number from
> the remaining power of the bullet. Then, if there's any power left, it
> exits their body, but then you would have to subtract their Ballistic armor
> rating AGAIN to see if it exits the rear of their body and keeps going.

Just use "Body+1d6" vs "Power+Damage Code (L=1, M=2, S=3, D=4)" should
give you surprisingly realistic results. If the bullet penetrates,
reduce the Power of the attack by /half/ of the "Body+1d6" value from
the first victim.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 5
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:31:20 +0100
|Hoi again, folks :)
|
|I have some gun-related questions that I am hoping those of you who
|actually know something about guns can help me with.

Well... I stripped down my first automatic rifle last weekend....
(Or was it SemiAutomatic?..... Semi I think....)

Other than that, practically nothing....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:48:43 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 18:53/ 5 Sep 97...

> First, what kind of TN modifier would you apply to someone who only has the
> use of one arm and is trying to use a two-handed gun (rifle, machine gun,
> etc.)?

I multiply recoil by x3 or x4 (exact mod depends on the situation), per
the recoil house rules I posted here several times, and which also appear
in Shadowland #6.

> Would you let them use one at all?

For an assault rifle, I'd say it's possible, as they don't weigh too much
to be held in one hand. Machineguns, though, only for trolls or strong
orks, or very strong others.

> How does the loss of the use of one arm affect recoil mods for all types
> of guns (even pistols, etc.). I have always assumed you COULD use a
> pistol only one-handed, but it might not be good on your wrists and your
> recoil may be worse. I dunno, though.

Like I said, see my recoil house rules. I could post them again if you
want.

> Second, how to you determine whether a round goes thorough someone, or
> stays in their body?

Assign the body a Barrier Rating, then add that to twice the character's
armor rating. If the Power Level exceeds this figure, I'd say the bullet
penetrates. As for the actual Barrier Rating for a (meta)human body, how
about one-half the character's Body Attribute?

As an example, Lance has a Body of 4 and wears an armor jacket (5/3
armor). If the Power Level exceeds 12, the round goes all the way through.

This has a slight problem in that even hold-out rounds go completely
through unarmored humans, though.

> This is how I would handle it, but I could be flawed in my reasoning:
>
> If a person is hit via the normal rules, you would do the following: let's
> say a person's body has a Ballistic and Impact Rating of 1 (maybe more?
> perhaps Callistic is lower than Impact rating). Subtract that number from
> the remaining power of the bullet. Then, if there's any power left, it
> exits their body, but then you would have to subtract their Ballistic armor
> rating AGAIN to see if it exits the rear of their body and keeps going.

Much the same as I reasoned, yes.

> Should there be a chance that the bullet will get lodged in the body
> somewhere, though? Like using a d6 to determine if it can make it though
> the body, even though it has the Power level remaining to do so? Also, can
> bullets be healed in the body without ill effects, depending on where they
> are lodged?

That's a good idea as well. I think rolling equal to or over the Power
Level should get the bullet stuck in the body (apply the Rule of Six if
necessary) to allow low-powered pistol bullets to get stuck much more
easily than, say, assault cannon rounds.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 7
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:21:15 +0100
In article <454.199709060931@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>, Spike
<u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> writes
>Well... I stripped down my first automatic rifle last weekend....
>(Or was it SemiAutomatic?..... Semi I think....)

If it was a L85 (short bullpup, lots of green plastic, magazine behind
the pistol grip) it's automatic. If it's an L1A1 (long, black,
conventional layout) it's semi-auto.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:53:43 +0100
|>Well... I stripped down my first automatic rifle last weekend....
|>(Or was it SemiAutomatic?..... Semi I think....)
|
|If it was a L85

I think that name rings a bell...
(Although they renamed it to something else now, because it's not 1985
anymore....). The description matches as well...

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 20:40:21 +0100
Spike said on 10:31/ 6 Sep 97...

> Well... I stripped down my first automatic rifle last weekend....
> (Or was it SemiAutomatic?..... Semi I think....)

There's not much of a difference anyway, except in the fire selector
mechanism (and if it was an L1A1 it's easy enough to change to FA by
replacing a few parts, IIRC).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 20:53:42 +0100
Spike said on 15:53/ 6 Sep 97...

> |If it was a L85
>
> I think that name rings a bell...
> (Although they renamed it to something else now, because it's not 1985
> anymore....). The description matches as well...

They might be calling it SA-80, which is the popular name for the weapon
(it stands for Small Arms 80, but that isn't exactly current anymore
either :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 11
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:11:26 -0700
>First, what kind of TN modifier would you apply to someone who only
>has the use of one arm and is trying to use a two-handed gun (rifle,
>machine gun, etc.)?

There are a lot of things to concider here..How long has the person
been without the limb..or the use thereof..How much practice has the
person had trying to get used to using the weapon with a single
hand..And what the weapon is to begin with..Some weapons offer only
small changes when going from 2 to 1 handed operation...such as a
pistol..

>Second, how to you determine whether a round goes thorough someone,
>or stays in their body?

Again there are a number of things to concider..Caliber of round being
used.. design of round..range to target..where was the target hit..is
the target wearing armor..Many rounds are designed to stay in the body
of the target..passing through a target is not an advantagious
characteristic..but a 50 cal hollowpoint at short range is likely
going to punch a hole right throught the target..Usually this sort of
thing maks a firefight too complicated to keep track of though..

>...... Also, can
>bullets be healed in the body without ill effects, depending on where
>they are lodged?

Yes there are many vets out there with vintage bullets lodged inside
of them.. However, As I understand it..there are always effects..an
ache when it gets cold or humid..that sort of thing..and then there is
always the possiblility that it will become dislodged and then cause
an all new problem...
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 12
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Questions for the gun-educated
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:08:21 +0000
On 5 Sep 97 at 18:53, Justin Pinnow wrote:
[SNIP]
> Hoi again, folks :)

> First, what kind of TN modifier would you apply to someone who only
> has the use of one arm and is trying to use a two-handed gun (rifle,
> machine gun, etc.)? Would you let them use one at all? How does
> the loss of the use of one arm affect recoil mods for all types of
> guns (even pistols, etc.). I have always assumed you COULD use a
> pistol only one-handed, but it might not be good on your wrists and
> your recoil may be worse. I dunno, though.

Increase the recoil level by 1 (normal recoil becomes doubled,
doubled recoil becomes tripled) and reduce the rate of fire for all
but semi and full automatic weapons (pump, lever, and bolt actions
require either two hands or a special technque), how great a
reduction is a GM call.

> Second, how to you determine whether a round goes thorough someone,
> or stays in their body?

This is a hard call. There are a wide set of variables involved,
velosity at impact, where on the body, type of bullet, bullet
crosssection, clothing and body armor worn, angle of impact
to name a few. And if you are considering a bullet going on and
hitting someone or something else then the question of exit velosity,
the distance between them and the angle of the bullet at exit are all
added to the equation. Then to just to make the question truely
interesting is the almost total lack of data on the subject. I say
almost because I have come a cross a bit of related data. Seems that
a pair of SS sergeants, assigned to one ofthe death camps, had a sick
sort of compition, to see who could kill the most people with a
single bullet shot, the record was in the low to mid nineties, using
a pistol.


> This is how I would handle it, but I could be flawed in my
> reasoning:
>
> If a person is hit via the normal rules, you would do the following:
> let's say a person's body has a Ballistic and Impact Rating of 1
> (maybe more? perhaps Callistic is lower than Impact rating).
> Subtract that number from the remaining power of the bullet. Then,
> if there's any power left, it exits their body, but then you would
> have to subtract their Ballistic armor rating AGAIN to see if it
> exits the rear of their body and keeps going.
>
> Of course, you would only use that last step if it could have an
> effect on the game. For example, someone was standing directly
> behind the person you are shooting, etc.

Why bother with a system, if it is in the best intrests of the game.
it happens and if it is not, it doesn't. And if it doesn't matter who
cares?

> Should there be a chance that the bullet will get lodged in the body
> somewhere, though? Like using a d6 to determine if it can make it
> though the body, even though it has the Power level remaining to do
> so? Also, can bullets be healed in the body without ill effects,
> depending on where they are lodged?

Again why complcate the game system? It is a long odds proposittion
that a penetrating bullet would hit anything important to the play of
the game. As to the wound effects, I belive that the present system
takes that into account. And yes, an individual can live a long and
full life with a bullet inside him. If you are looking for a game
hook, this has possiblities. Consider it as a less spectacular cortex
bomb, suddenly or not so suddenly the indivdual has a incompasitating
spasom. Take a look at the movie El Dorado (J.Wayne R.Michum d.
Howard Hawks Paramount 1966) for what could be done with this as a
plot hook.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

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