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Message no. 1
From: Jean-François Major maje123@*******.com
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:24:10 EDT
Ok, here's the problem: I'm trying to make a Ghoul Detective, and I realize
Ghouls have the Blind Flaw, but, being dual-natured, see the astral plane
permanently. It says that while astrally perceiving/projecting, a Magician
would be unable to read something and know its content (all he'd know is
that it bathed in love, hate, or wathever)or watch something like a telecom.
Does that mean that a Ghoul can't read, can't watch TV, or use any
electronic equipment related to vision (like micro-camrecorders and vidlink
transmitters). Could the problem be arranged by installing an Image
Link cyberware implant with a pair of glasses with a really tiny
micro-camrecorder on it?
And this problem rises a lot more questions: does Smartlink work for
Ghouls? How about Goggles and Binoculars? All eye implants, for that
matter? Are Ghouls freed of their Blind Flaw if they get Cybereyes?
I hope I'm not showering you all with answerless questions. ;-)
Jean-F. Major
Major2000@*******.com
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Message no. 2
From: Bai Shen baishen@**********.com
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:47:12 -0400
> Ok, here's the problem: I'm trying to make a Ghoul Detective, and I realize
> Ghouls have the Blind Flaw, but, being dual-natured, see the astral plane
> permanently. It says that while astrally perceiving/projecting, a Magician
> would be unable to read something and know its content (all he'd know is
> that it bathed in love, hate, or wathever)or watch something like a telecom.

Yup.

> Does that mean that a Ghoul can't read, can't watch TV, or use any
> electronic equipment related to vision (like micro-camrecorders and vidlink
> transmitters). Could the problem be arranged by installing an Image
> Link cyberware implant with a pair of glasses with a really tiny
> micro-camrecorder on it?

Yes.

> And this problem rises a lot more questions: does Smartlink work for Ghouls?

Prolly not without cyvereyes.

> How about Goggles and Binoculars? All eye implants, for that matter?

Same.

> Are Ghouls freed of their Blind Flaw if they get Cybereyes?

Yeah, but it's double essence for them for cyber IIRC.

Bai Shen
Message no. 3
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:30:03 +0200
Hey,
I'd hate to burst your bubble, but...
"The ghouls may not have sophisticated electronic equipment or magical
wards, but every last guard can see in the dark and in the astral plane."
*And*, not By, or Using.
Page 101, GhoulTown, Bug City sourcebook.
Later it says they have telescopic sights on their sniper rifles, now if
they're blind, what would they do with that? And it mentiones they don't
have cyberware, so I don't believe every single one of the ghouls uses this
(very cool) Camrecorder+Image cyber thingie to see.
Not to mention Tamir Grey wrote a diary, and I don't believe he had a human
assistant writing it for him. You know, sometimes writers feel hungry... ;)

-Nimster
I heard life sucks, that's why I'm glad I don't have it.
Message no. 4
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@***.net
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:13:01 -0700
At 03:24 PM 8/10/00 -0400, major2000@*******.com wrote:

> And this problem rises a lot more questions: does Smartlink work for
> Ghouls? How about Goggles and Binoculars? All eye implants, for that
> matter? Are Ghouls freed of their Blind Flaw if they get Cybereyes?
> I hope I'm not showering you all with answerless questions. ;-)


We went a couple of rounds on this same (or similar) topic about a year
ago. Check the archives for a thread started by me on 27-Aug-1999 with the
subject

"SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes"

The specific message can be found at:

http://lists.dumpshock.com/pipermail/shadowrn/Week-of-Mon-19990823/018571.html

(link might wrap)

While I don't recall that any resolution was ever actually reached
regarding interpretation of those rules, that thread ought to be a good
enough place to start if it's time to rehash it. Your questions aren't
answerless, just answerable by apparent contradiction.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 5
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:51:52 +0200
According to Nimster, at 0:30 on 11 Aug 00, the word on the street was...

> I'd hate to burst your bubble, but...
> "The ghouls may not have sophisticated electronic equipment or magical
> wards, but every last guard can see in the dark and in the astral plane."
> *And*, not By, or Using.
> Page 101, GhoulTown, Bug City sourcebook.

The thing is, older SR books said ghouls have _reduced_ sight, not
necessarily total blindness (though it usually borders on that). However,
what I find strange is how they can see in the dark but not in the
light...

> Later it says they have telescopic sights on their sniper rifles, now if
> they're blind, what would they do with that?

Make people think they can see?

> Not to mention Tamir Grey wrote a diary, and I don't believe he had a
> human assistant writing it for him. You know, sometimes writers feel
> hungry... ;)

Voice recognition is way further in SR than it is today, so he could
simply have dictated it to his computer, which could make a sound every
time other users would see a visual warning (like Windows does today,
too).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Peter Steen Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 11:34:42 +0200 (MET DST)
On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Nimster wrote:

> Hey,

Before I start, I'm as usual not near my books, and the fact that Ghouls
are one of the critters/races that FASA has changed the most through
time makes this rather tricky. I'll go with what I remember.

> I'd hate to burst your bubble, but...
> "The ghouls may not have sophisticated electronic equipment or magical
> wards, but every last guard can see in the dark and in the astral plane."
> *And*, not By, or Using.

This I don't understand. I would think (as me and as a GM) that they
made one of their small errors. Either the author (whoever it
was..) forgot or decided to change the Ghouls from standard SR to
BugCity. Just like when FASA changed Ghouls from being unfortunate
Goblinized creatures to creatures infected with the Krieger (?) strain
of HMHVV. When this change came I do not remember.

But. Long rant aside. I don't recall seeing any mention of Ghouls as
having Low light or Thermographic vision. Therefore I'll disregard that
statement (The authors, not Nimster's).

> Page 101, GhoulTown, Bug City sourcebook.
> Later it says they have telescopic sights on their sniper rifles, now if
> they're blind, what would they do with that?

As Gurth mentioned they haven't always been blind, just reduced
sight. If that functions anything like near-sightedness (when you can't
see anything not right in front of your nose) These telescopic sights
_might_ have offset that penalty and let them use the rifle normally
when using the rifles.

[SNIP]

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 7
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:02:57 -0400
what I find strange is how they can see in the dark but not in the
light...


Extreme sensitivity to the light because they spend almost all of their time
in the dark and squallor. Ever turn on the light in the middle of the night
without bracing yourself first after being in the dark for say about half an
hour? Imagine walking out into the sun after spending half your life in the
equivalent of a windowless dungeon... Hrmmm...which actually brings up a
problem. If you do manage to flash-blind a ghoul like that I wonder if it
might be a useful tool in the form that if you do it severely enough and
with enough exposure you could take away what remaining sight he has by
burning out his retinas...
Message no. 8
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:22:33 +0200
> However, what I find strange is how they can see in the dark but not in
the
> light...

Why not? Many fantasy genre creatures have that limitation. It's simply
over-sensitivity to light. Many Real Life (tm) creatures have that, when you
come to think about it...

> Make people think they can see?

Give me a break. :)

>
> Voice recognition is way further in SR than it is today, so he could
> simply have dictated it to his computer, which could make a sound every
> time other users would see a visual warning (like Windows does today,
> too).
>

Got me in that. And still, It does not make them blind. Light-sensitive,
perhaps. Weak of sight - granted. But totally blind means they are only able
to astrally percieve things. I'd say that's a major limitation. It's like
being a spirit, but having to be physically available at all times. I simply
wonder how'd they survive the Cabrini Refuge riots with being able to only
see astrally...

-Nimster.
Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:19:31 +0200
According to James Mick, at 10:02 on 11 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> Extreme sensitivity to the light because they spend almost all of their time
> in the dark and squallor. Ever turn on the light in the middle of the night
> without bracing yourself first after being in the dark for say about half an
> hour?

Not something I usually do, as I tend to have plenty of time to wake up
befor I switch on the light :)

> Imagine walking out into the sun after spending half your life in the
> equivalent of a windowless dungeon...

A nice explanation, but not all that plausible, IMHO. If this were the
case, they would be able to get used to light again after spending, say, a
couple of days (or weeks) in the light. Furthermore, ghouls are changed
(goblinized/HMHVVized/whatever) metahumans. I'm not going to believe that
these people suddenly have the urge to do without artificial light when
they've changed...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions: Ghoul's Blindness
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:19:31 +0200
According to Nimster, at 19:22 on 11 Aug 00, the word on the street was...

> Why not? Many fantasy genre creatures have that limitation.

Well, yes, but the thing with SR is that you can't simply explain things
by saying "It's fantasy!" It has to have some rationale behind it, IMHO.

> It's simply over-sensitivity to light. Many Real Life (tm) creatures
> have that, when you come to think about it...

I'm no zoologist, but I don't believe there are many creatures that can
see perfectly in the dark but can't see anything in the light. (Feel free
to prove me wrong, though.) Anyway, if that were the case with ghouls,
they'd all be wearing welding goggles and walking around in broad
daylight.

> > Make people think they can see?
>
> Give me a break. :)

Actually it's something I might use myself, were I ever to play a blind
character. The more false information the other side has about you, the
better you'll be able to defeat them.

> Got me in that. And still, It does not make them blind. Light-sensitive,
> perhaps. Weak of sight - granted. But totally blind means they are only able
> to astrally percieve things. I'd say that's a major limitation. It's like
> being a spirit, but having to be physically available at all times. I simply
> wonder how'd they survive the Cabrini Refuge riots with being able to only
> see astrally...

When astrally perceiving, you see basically an image of the real world
(the living and the dead bits) as well as all the stuff that's only
astrally active. So being blind but astrally perceiving is not a big
limitation; the biggest drawback is that you can't read (and even that
might be solved by a combination of FAB and the neon sign industry :) but
otherwise you can function pretty much normally.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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