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Message no. 1
From: Sean McGrath nafien@*******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:08:40 +1000
Yo,

Now, this is a VERY rules-lawyer type question and I've already made up my
mind about it but I thought I'd ask the esteemed ShadowRN folk and stir up
pointless debate.

Is the Shock Hand implant from Cybertechnology used with the Cyber-Implant
Combat skill (as technically it IS a cyber implant) or the Unarmed Combat
skill (as really, all you are doing is punching/slapping the poor fool
you're fighting) ?? Both?

IMO it would be Unarmed as they're basically the same as Shock Gloves but
...

And while I'm at it (I've loaned out my copy of SR3 so I can't check this
and I'm not sure its mentioned anyway): strap-on forearm snap blades.
Cyber-Implant skill? Edged weapons? Which one and why?

Oh and lasers ....

The thought came to me recently that magical barriers of any kind (Barrier,
Armor spells) wouldn't stop a laser weapon as they are mostly transparent
ie. The caster/ppl on the other side are quite visible except I think for a
to +1 TN for the Barrier spell.

Does this mean that FutureSoldier(TM) has nothing to fear from the
SuperMage(C) with a Force 20 Armor sustaining focus? Or would a magical
barrier stop a laser simply because it is "magical", a decision which I'm
not comfortable with.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

- Scam
Message no. 2
From: Shawn Plummer plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:39:13 -0400
Scam wrote:

> Is the Shock Hand implant from Cybertechnology used with the Cyber-Implant
> Combat skill (as technically it IS a cyber implant) or the Unarmed Combat
> skill (as really, all you are doing is punching/slapping the poor fool
> you're fighting) ?? Both?
>
> IMO it would be Unarmed as they're basically the same as Shock Gloves but
> ...

Agreed unarmed combat all the way.

>
> And while I'm at it (I've loaned out my copy of SR3 so I can't check this
> and I'm not sure its mentioned anyway): strap-on forearm snap blades.
> Cyber-Implant skill? Edged weapons? Which one and why?

Cyber-Implant skill because you are fighting with something
attached to your body not with a weapon you are holding. You would
fight with these exactly like Cyber-Implants.

>
> Oh and lasers ....
>
> The thought came to me recently that magical barriers of any kind (Barrier,
> Armor spells) wouldn't stop a laser weapon as they are mostly transparent
> ie. The caster/ppl on the other side are quite visible except I think for a
> to +1 TN for the Barrier spell.
>
> Does this mean that FutureSoldier(TM) has nothing to fear from the
> SuperMage(C) with a Force 20 Armor sustaining focus? Or would a magical
> barrier stop a laser simply because it is "magical", a decision which I'm
> not comfortable with.
>
> Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Depends on how you play it. Are your mages armor and barrier
spells entirely transparent? I always allowed some minor tweaking of
how spells look, it is one way to differentiate the various magical
types etc. perhaps a mage has a translucent blue armor spell, or
shaman's armor spell takes on physical appearance corresponding to his
totem. Also it is important to note that even a slight tint in color
would disrupt a laser beam somewhat and no doubt cause it to have to
burn through the object before being able to burn something. I do not
believe that a laser would effectively shoot through Plexiglas (it
would need to burn through the Plexiglas first)

Just some thoughts
--
Plum
shawn@*******.net

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live
forever."
- Gandhi
Message no. 3
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:06:33 -0500
On Fri, 14 May 1999 02:08:40 +1000 "Sean McGrath" <nafien@*******.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
>The thought came to me recently that magical barriers of any kind
(Barrier,
>Armor spells) wouldn't stop a laser weapon as they are mostly
transparent
>ie. The caster/ppl on the other side are quite visible except I think
for a
>to +1 TN for the Barrier spell.
>
>Does this mean that FutureSoldier(TM) has nothing to fear from the
>SuperMage(C) with a Force 20 Armor sustaining focus? Or would a magical
>barrier stop a laser simply because it is "magical", a decision which
I'm
>not comfortable with.
>
>Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Are magic barriers static or dynamic? I would say that they dynamicly
adjust to an attack with a degree of effectiveness determined by the
force of the spell. In this interpretation, a "standard" barrier spell
could manifest in many different ways to prevent attacks rather than the
traditional invisble solid wall. If you are uneasy with this level of
flexibilty in the spell, what would be the drain modifier for a
translucentor opaque barrier as opposed to a transparent one?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 4
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:06:27 -0500
Oh and lasers ....

The thought came to me recently that magical barriers of any kind (Barrier,
Armor spells) wouldn't stop a laser weapon as they are mostly transparent
ie. The caster/ppl on the other side are quite visible except I think for a
to +1 TN for the Barrier spell.

Does this mean that FutureSoldier(TM) has nothing to fear from the
SuperMage(C) with a Force 20 Armor sustaining focus? Or would a magical
barrier stop a laser simply because it is "magical", a decision which I'm
not comfortable with.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

- Scam




The +1 target number comes from the fact that the barrier is not completely
transparent.

Laser's are nothing but focused light. The slight opacity and distortion
would cause 2 side effects.
1) When light or energy encounters resitance, some of the power behind the
light/energy is disipated as heat. You could interpret that as the barrier
reducing the power of the weapon.
2) The barrier would tend to distort the beam from it's trajectory (Ever
look though a fish tank at something behind it. It doesn't appear in the
same spot as if you where to move the tank out of the way). You could
argue that the laser could be refracted which would severly reduce the
power of the beam.
Message no. 5
From: Adam Lewis adamswork@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:35:29 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh and lasers ....
>


<snip>

Lasers have caused more than a few debates on the
Alternity list. It's seems to some, including me, that
a laser weapons effectiveness on a battle field in
about nil.

In a medium to large scale battle you're going to have
smoke/dust billowing from all the weapons fire. You'll
have vehicles on fire, you'll have dust storms from
landing ships/vehicles, etc, etc...you get the
picture.

The arguement is on how much visibilty really affects
a laser beam.


=­amL
===="The good die first."
"But most of us are morally ambiguous, which explains our random dying
patterns."
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Message no. 6
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:38:12 -0400 (EDT)
cmpetro@*********.com writes:
> The thought came to me recently that magical barriers of any kind (Barrier,
> Armor spells) wouldn't stop a laser weapon as they are mostly transparent
> ie. The caster/ppl on the other side are quite visible except I think for a
> to +1 TN for the Barrier spell.

I have an unrelated question or two about the armor spell.

1) If the target was already wearing hardened armor, does the armor
spell increase the rating of the hardened armor, or does it create
non-hardened armor that is worn on top of the hardened armor?

2) Can this spell be cast on vehicles? Does it create vehicular
armor?

Thanks,
Mark
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:27:39 -0700
>totem. Also it is important to note that even a slight tint in color
>would disrupt a laser beam somewhat and no doubt cause it to have to
>burn through the object before being able to burn something. I do not

Not necessarily. A tint in color simply means that object's reflectance is
more efficient for that wavelength. A "blue" surface would not affect a
monochromatic red HeNe laser. Dispersion effects from the frequency-varying
indices of refraction would spread the wave packet somewhat, but this
effect is not noticeable at short distances (under ~1 kilometer or so).

>believe that a laser would effectively shoot through Plexiglas (it
>would need to burn through the Plexiglas first)

Depends where the focus of the beam was at, and it's intensity. It's easily
possible to focus the beam beyond the plexiglas, as long as it was not
impregnated with a material that absorbed light of the laser's frequency.

This is somewhat simplified, of course. For full calculations I refer you
to an undergraduate Quantum Optics text (e.g. Rodney Loudon's _The Quantum
Theory of Light_).

>Just some thoughts
>--
>Plum
>shawn@*******.net

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:37:43 +1000
Adam Getchell writes:
> Depends where the focus of the beam was at, and it's intensity.
> It's easily
> possible to focus the beam beyond the plexiglas, as long as it was not
> impregnated with a material that absorbed light of the laser's frequency.

That's assuming that random imperfections in the Plexiglass doesn't scatter
the beam, Adam. The further beyond the glass that you wish to focus, the
more likely it is that you'll have to make a hole first.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 9
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 13 May 99 20:17:40 -0400
>This is somewhat simplified, of course. For full calculations I refer you
>to an undergraduate Quantum Optics text (e.g. Rodney Loudon's _The Quantum
>Theory of Light_).
>
>--Adam
>
>acgetchell@*******.edu
>"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
>
>
>

ROTFL :) Adam I know we have a large percentage of educated intelligent
people but how many do you think are capable of understanding that. I can
barely do it even though I completed half a BS in Physics.

Steve
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:29:02 +1000
Adam Getchell writes:
> Not necessarily. A tint in color simply means that object's reflectance is
> more efficient for that wavelength. A "blue" surface would not affect a
> monochromatic red HeNe laser. Dispersion effects from the
> frequency-varying
> indices of refraction would spread the wave packet somewhat, but this
> effect is not noticeable at short distances (under ~1 kilometer or so).

Damn, this is the bit I intended to quote before...

What I meant was that the refractive index of the plexiglass can vary
greatly. I mean, some plexiglass is almost perfectly clear, and you could
shoot a laser through that, but others generate quite visible distortions in
the image.

If you shoot your laser through the latter, the effect would be much like
shooting along the apex of a prism: part of the beam goes one way, the other
part goes the other.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:11:23 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippage(TM)>
> Oh and lasers ....
>
> The thought came to me recently that magical barriers of any kind
(Barrier, Armor spells) wouldn't stop a laser weapon as they are mostly
transparent ie. The caster/ppl on the other side are quite visible
except I think for a to +1 TN for the Barrier spell.
>
> Does this mean that FutureSoldier(TM) has nothing to fear from the
SuperMage(C) with a Force 20 Armor sustaining focus? Or would a magical
barrier stop a laser simply because it is "magical", a decision which
I'm not comfortable with.
> Anybody have any thoughts on this?
>
> - Scam

Scam, if you're not comfortable with that explanation, you shouldn't be
playing Shadowrun. Try Cyberpunk instead.

8-)

Okay, with that bit of facetiousness out of the way, let's get down to
brass tacks. YES, a barrier of the correct type, including an armour
spell, will stop a laser. A bullet barrier will not, but a plain
barrier would. As would a 'laser barrier' (frag me if I'm going to
waste my karma on a spell like that, though).

Why?

Well, there are two possible reasons (if my pseudo-physics explanation
is at all valid).

Pseudo-physics first (this is what I THINK I can remember from talking
with my brother - he's a ceramic engineer, currently doing his PhD
(wanker), but who also has a good grasp on general physical
principles). Light is made up of particles (photons, neh?). Lasers are
coherent light. Therefore, lasers are made up of particles. These
particles are what the barrier stops, thus averting damage to the
subject of the spell.

Now, that's on very shaky legs, partly because I'm not sure how correct
the explanation is and partly because IIRC barriers aren't designed to
stop really small particles (such as air - or photons).

On the other hand, you have the TRUE Shadowrun explanation. That is
that the barrier is magical. A physical barrier (or the armour spell)
is designed to stop physical attacks and physical objects - which
include lasers. The magic of the barrier, therefore, would be "smart"
enough to "say", "Hell-ooo!!! This is a laser! It's bad! I must stop
it!" If you get my drift.

Scam, magic is NOT logical. It does NOT work along the lines of
physical principles. Therefore is doesn't NEED to create an opaque
barrier in order to stop laser attacks. The INTENT of the spell is to
protect the subject from physical harm, correct? Therefore, the mage
manipulates the mana into creating an effect that, while it may not
make much sense in the physical world, is able to stop physical attacks
- and a laser is by any definition a physical attack.

Like I said, it's magic. So, if the spell works, it works for all
things. I mean, think about it. In order to stop bullets, you either
need a physical barrier (such as a concrete wall) of sufficient density
to absorb the kinetic energy, or a great deal of friction (provided by
air or water or whatever it is you're firing into), again to absorb the
kinetic energy. Right? (Hey, I'm not asking you, Adam G, so go away. :)
) Or a magnetic field could possibly do it to if it was of sufficient
strength. There are probably other things that could do this, but not
that I can knowledgeably talk about off the top of my head. Does a
barrier or armour spell create any of these things? I don't think so.

What the spell creates is a magical field that 'detects' the object/s
it's supposed to stop and then does so. Does this 'field' possess the
properties required to stop bullets, according to the laws of physics?
I fragging well do not think so. But the spell still stops the bullets,
right? Well, if it's powerful enough.

So if you're not worried about a spell stopping bullets because it's
'magic', then why the hell are you worried about it stopping lasers
because it's 'magic'?

Remember, magic DOES NOT WORK...according to the laws of physics. So if
you really think that for a magical barrier to stop a laser, it must
satisfy the physical requirements to stop a laser, then stop playing
Shadowrun, because, if you want to be logical, you're going to have to
find an explanation for every single magical effect in the game that
satisfies the laws of physics. And I don't think even Adam G could do
that. :)

*Doc' KNOWS he sounds like a smartass - but that's because he
is..."Scam, either you accept that magic can do things that don't
always make sense and the fact that it's magic is explanation enough,
or you give Shadowrun magic the big heave-ho - because it does NOT make
sense according to the physical world."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 12
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:10:11 +0200
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
>
> Remember, magic DOES NOT WORK...according to the laws of physics. So if
> you really think that for a magical barrier to stop a laser, it must
> satisfy the physical requirements to stop a laser, then stop playing
> Shadowrun, because, if you want to be logical, you're going to have to
> find an explanation for every single magical effect in the game that
> satisfies the laws of physics. And I don't think even Adam G could do
> that. :)
>
Errmmm, well Yes in my game i want be able to explain stuff logical, and
yes magic follows its own laws of physic. Good thing i don`t play with
you, i thing i would have left th etable during a game, i realy hate
such simple crap like, "its maigc, it is so."
Makes me sick, sorry.

--
Barbie

=-=-=-=SR4 will lead the way=-=-=- -=-=-=-Feel the power-=-=-=-
Message no. 13
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:15:37 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 13 May 1999, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> - and a laser is by any definition a physical attack.

Actually, it's an energy attack. It has no "physical" component
at all. By your definition, solar radiation is a "physical" attack. Does
your Barrier spell block out UV rays on a sunnny day because they are
harmful to you? Probably not. Then why should it stop a laser?

> So if you're not worried about a spell stopping bullets because it's
> 'magic', then why the hell are you worried about it stopping lasers
> because it's 'magic'?

Because "magic" needs to function in a reasonable, consistent
manner, otherwise there's no point in having rules for it.

> Remember, magic DOES NOT WORK...according to the laws of physics. So if
> you really think that for a magical barrier to stop a laser, it must
> satisfy the physical requirements to stop a laser, then stop playing
> Shadowrun, because, if you want to be logical, you're going to have to
> find an explanation for every single magical effect in the game that
> satisfies the laws of physics. And I don't think even Adam G could do
> that. :)

I've been playing Shadowrun since it came out, and for things like
this, I say yes, you do need to satisfy the physical requirements. Yes
magic is weird, mysterious, and unexplained. But to just wave your hands
and say "it works because it's magic" smacks of the worst kind of D&D
style arbitrary ruling that I can think of. It's one thing to say "the
actual mechanics of how a barrier is constructed and maintained are not
fully understood, but it effects all matter larger than gases,
harmlessly dissipating kinetic energy." It's totally another to say, "a
barrier just sort of knows what it's supposed to protect you from, even if
you don't know the attack is coming or have never been attacked by that
method before."
One of the things I *like* about Shadowrun is the juxtaposition of
magic and science. They both exist, and are separate. But they both
have rules that they must follow, and they at least try to be internally
consistent. Further, if you were to put magic into our own world, you can
bet that people would be trying to figure out how it worked, what powered
it, and how it related to the physical world. To avoid even trying to
make some sort of explanation is lame. Taking the proverbial "because
it's magic" approach is as much of a GM cop-out as saying "because I said
so."
If you can't give your players at least a plausible reason for
why it works, then maybe it's not us who shouldn't be playing Shadowrun.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 14
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:25:24 EDT
In a message dated 5/13/1999 3:38:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
SHODAN+@***.EDU writes:

>
> 1) If the target was already wearing hardened armor, does the armor
> spell increase the rating of the hardened armor, or does it create
> non-hardened armor that is worn on top of the hardened armor?

Were this the SR2 version of the spell, I might actually say yes to this.
But in SR3, no, IMO.

> 2) Can this spell be cast on vehicles? Does it create vehicular
> armor?

Hmmm...interesting prospect, especially given the new mechanics.

-K
Message no. 15
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:01:33 +1000
I'm afraid that I completely disagree with Doc here.

At 07:11 13/05/99 -0700, Rand Ratinac wrote:
>On the other hand, you have the TRUE Shadowrun explanation. That is
>that the barrier is magical. A physical barrier (or the armour spell)
>is designed to stop physical attacks and physical objects - which
>include lasers. The magic of the barrier, therefore, would be "smart"
>enough to "say", "Hell-ooo!!! This is a laser! It's bad! I must stop
>it!" If you get my drift.

Why not a manaball spell that does not harm any of the caster's allies caught
in the AoE? The spell just "sort of knows". After all, it's magic. :-) Such a
spell would be absurd in SR. It cannot be justified by "it's magic".

>Scam, magic is NOT logical. It does NOT work along the lines of
>physical principles. Therefore is doesn't NEED to create an opaque
>barrier in order to stop laser attacks. The INTENT of the spell is to
>protect the subject from physical harm, correct? Therefore, the mage
>manipulates the mana into creating an effect that, while it may not
>make much sense in the physical world, is able to stop physical attacks
>- and a laser is by any definition a physical attack.

The magician manipulates the mana according to the spell design. If the spell
design does not reflect what he really wants at the time of casting - tough.
:-) The intent of the caster is totally irrelevant, in this case. Each time the
spell is cast, it works according to its design. That is - it's repeatable,
observable and consistent. That's SR magic for you. Very logical, if you ask
me. If it was designed to stop damaging levels of light, however it achieved
this, then that would be OK.

>Like I said, it's magic. So, if the spell works, it works for all
>things. I mean, think about it. In order to stop bullets, you either
>need a physical barrier (such as a concrete wall) of sufficient density
>to absorb the kinetic energy, or a great deal of friction (provided by
>air or water or whatever it is you're firing into), again to absorb the
>kinetic energy. Right? (Hey, I'm not asking you, Adam G, so go away. :)
>) Or a magnetic field could possibly do it to if it was of sufficient
>strength. There are probably other things that could do this, but not
>that I can knowledgeably talk about off the top of my head. Does a
>barrier or armour spell create any of these things? I don't think so.

Just a new physical phenomenon. Nearly every physics Phd student would be
studying them. New phenomena means new theories or old ones modified.

>What the spell creates is a magical field that 'detects' the object/s
>it's supposed to stop and then does so. Does this 'field' possess the
>properties required to stop bullets, according to the laws of physics?
>I fragging well do not think so. But the spell still stops the bullets,
>right? Well, if it's powerful enough.

There are no physical laws broken here, as long as the conservation laws are
observed.

>So if you're not worried about a spell stopping bullets because it's
>'magic', then why the hell are you worried about it stopping lasers
>because it's 'magic'?

Because a spell does no more than what it was designed to do. The Barrier
spell, in my reading, does not stop light of any intensity.

>Remember, magic DOES NOT WORK...according to the laws of physics. So if
>you really think that for a magical barrier to stop a laser, it must
>satisfy the physical requirements to stop a laser, then stop playing
>Shadowrun, because, if you want to be logical, you're going to have to
>find an explanation for every single magical effect in the game that
>satisfies the laws of physics. And I don't think even Adam G could do
>that. :)

Magic, in Shadowrun, is a real, repeatable, physical,observable phenomena.
Since science only tries to explain the observable world, science in SR will be
modified to encompass explanations of the physical existence of magic.

However, there is no need to find scientific explanations for magic in
Shadowrun. All that is needed is that the rules mechanics for magic be
internally consistent - which SR does very well. So, spells work according to
their design and the Barrier spell would only stop a laser if it was designed
to stop a laser - which I don't think it was.

>*Doc' KNOWS he sounds like a smartass - but that's because he
>is..."Scam, either you accept that magic can do things that don't
>always make sense and the fact that it's magic is explanation enough,
>or you give Shadowrun magic the big heave-ho - because it does NOT make
>sense according to the physical world."*

To have a playable and balanced game, magic cannot "just do anything" and must
make sense. An explanation of "it's magic" is not enough. There lies the path
of frustrated players and bad storylines flawed by deus ex machina. :-)

Chris
Message no. 16
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:35:56 -0700 (PDT)
> Errmmm, well Yes in my game i want be able to explain stuff logical,
and yes magic follows its own laws of physic. Good thing i don`t play
with you, i thing i would have left th etable during a game, i realy
hate such simple crap like, "its maigc, it is so." Makes me sick,
sorry.
>
> --
> Barbie

*Doc' barfs*

Okay, okay, so it looks like I'm in the minority on this.

Btw, Barbie, I never use 'because it does' as an explanation - I say "I
don't know, I'm not a physics major. It says it in the rules, though,
so you tell me why it shouldn't." Not a cop-out, because for the kinds
of things that I say that, I honestly don't know enough about the
subject to say why it should or shouldn't.

Anyway, in this case, I see a barrier as a spell that provides
protection against ANY kind of non-magical attacks, excluding gases, or
that will stop physical objects that aren't specifically attacks, but
try to pass through it. That, IMO (which may be wrong according to you,
but that's not the point) is the intention of the spell. A laser is a
non-magical attack - so a barrier spell will stop it. End of story -
under my interpretation. Which, should be noted, benefits my players,
as none of them own lasers, but sometimes the bad guys do.

And I think I didn't explain myself too well - I'm afraid I was too
busy ranting. My apologies. When I say you should accept that magic can
do something because it's magic, look at it this way. Physicists can
prove their theorems (mostly) because they've studied them. Likewise
with astronomers, engineers and other scientists. Right?

Now, you should accept that magic works THIS WAY because, AFAIK, it
just does. A magical theorist could prove WHY it works that way and the
functionality of spells and he could explain it a hell of a lot better
than I can - because I am not a magical theorist. If I was, I could
prove it to you.

See what I'm getting at?

Wow, I should be more careful how I put things. I was sick - so sue me.
:)

Btw, Barbie, would you accept, "It's magic - that was the intention of
the spell designer, so that's how it works"? I'm quite interested about
that, as from what I can tell, that is the basis of the Shadowrun
magical system, because IT'S ALL MADE UP. The rules give you options
you can incorporate in spells when you design them - but there is
nothing behind that to explain WHY those options work if you put them
in a spell apart from "it's the intention of the spell designer".

See, I was looking at things a step further back than you were - my
mistake. You were looking at why a particular spell worked as it does -
I was looking at why magic works as it does. For a barrier - it works
in a particular way because that was how it was intended to work by
whoever designed it. It doesn't satisfy any principles of physics -
although if you SAID it worked a particular way you could probably
prove that it does. Hmmm...let me start again. There is not enough
detail given in the spell description to prove that the way it works
satisfies the principles of physics. But it still works (as described),
because it was designed with that intention in mind. Now WHY does
designing a spell with a particular intention in mind work? I don't
know. It just does - because it's MAGIC.

Yes, there are probably laws IN THE SHADOWRUN UNIVERSE that can be
quantified and studied and proven to say why a spell works. We don't
have those laws, which makes it rather difficult to prove things, neh?

So, Barbie - give me a better explanation for why a barrier spell works
than "because that was the intention of the spell designer" and I will
be surprised. And happy, believe it or not. I wouldn't mind being able
to pull explanations for things like that out of my hat sometimes. Or
tell me how you would explain to your players (if you had/have any?)
why or how a barrier spell works.

*Doc' apologises, because he thinks he answered a different question to
the one being asked. He is a little annoyed about getting flamed for
it, though.*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 17
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:10:47 +1000
> Anyway, in this case, I see a barrier as a spell that provides
> protection against ANY kind of non-magical attacks, excluding gases, or
> that will stop physical objects that aren't specifically attacks, but
> try to pass through it. That, IMO (which may be wrong according to you,
> but that's not the point) is the intention of the spell. A laser is a
> non-magical attack - so a barrier spell will stop it. End of story -
> under my interpretation. Which, should be noted, benefits my players,
> as none of them own lasers, but sometimes the bad guys do.

Ok, snipping the rant and all the rest, this raises an interesting point.
If a barrier stops all nonmagical attacks, as you suggest (rightly or
wrongly, I don't care), then what about blinding lights? It stops lasers,
so would it stop, say, the effects of a flash-bang grenade, particularly the
flash? What about a flare of light, then, that would ruin nightvision?
Taking it one step further, it'd act like flare compensation in cybereyes,
and might even stop the mage from getting sunburnt in bright sunlight,
right? It's a physical attack, after all, albeit a slow one. Now, if it
stops intense light from getting through, why wouldn't it stop faint light?
Alluva sudden, by extending that little statement, the mage is sitting there
in the dark, receiving no sensory input from beyond his barrier. While that
might be a good thing in certain limited situations, I hardly think it's the
intent of the spell. So I would say the physical barrier stops physical
objects passing through instead. I'd also be inclined to put a further
limit on it - macro physical objects or physical effects. That way the mage
won't run out of air, as the molecules of air don't really count as large
physical objects. But it'd stop a bullet or a concussive effect from a
blast. The mage could still be gassed, but hey, you can't have everything.

What it boils down to is that everyone will have a different opinion on just
how a spell works, and what it does. And almost every opinion has at least
a few flaws, some large and some not so large, that players will eventually
find and exploit.

As long as your game is internally consistant, I don't care if you think
magic is actually miniature gnomes running around in Astral Space doing
things or if you put it as a mysterious force as yet undiscovered by 1990s
science. Actually, I don't even care if your game is internally consistant.
Just have fun. : )

Well this got a little off topic...

Play nice.

Slipspeed

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Scattered showers my ass... - Noah
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:18:54 EDT
In a message dated 5/17/1999 2:36:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> *Doc' apologises, because he thinks he answered a different question to
> the one being asked. He is a little annoyed about getting flamed for
> it, though.*

<K sneaks up and dowses Doc with a bucket full of salt-water...it was more
available, or so they told me at the store...just in case ;) >
Message no. 19
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:13:38 +1000
Doc Rand writes:

> Anyway, in this case, I see a barrier as a spell that provides
> protection against ANY kind of non-magical attacks, excluding gases, or
> that will stop physical objects that aren't specifically attacks, but
> try to pass through it. That, IMO (which may be wrong according to you,
> but that's not the point) is the intention of the spell. A laser is a
> non-magical attack - so a barrier spell will stop it. End of story -
> under my interpretation. Which, should be noted, benefits my players,
> as none of them own lasers, but sometimes the bad guys do.

No. Sorry.

A barrier spell stops physical objects, with the exception of gases AND
LIGHT. The benefit of it stopping attacks is a side-effect of the latter.
For example: A barrier would stop a bullet. It would stop a grenade. It
would not stop the blast effect of a grenade (though it would stop
shrapnel). It would stop an acidic liquid, but not an acidic gas.

And it doesn't stop light. You can see through it (though at a penalty).
Therefore, a laser would go through it. At best, the Barrier spell would act
as armour, but I wouldn't even rule that: the penalty for looking through a
Barrier comes from the light the Barrier itself emits, not from a reduction
in the light getting through.

Barriers do NOT stop attacks. They stop physical objects. If you can think
of a way to make an attack that doesn't require touch, then you can do it.
Case in point: blow away the floor with explosive bullets. Mage falls.

If I want, I could design a "Anti-Barney-The-Purple-Dinosaur Barrier" spell,
to protect me from Barney the Purple Dinosaur and representations thereof.
It would be fun, too... I'd centre it on me and run down the aisles at a
Toys'R'Us, and watch the dolls fly. :) But clearly there's no intention of
stopping attacks (except for when the dino-suited mall security show up and
try to club me).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 20
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:39:19 -0700
>Pseudo-physics first (this is what I THINK I can remember from talking
>with my brother - he's a ceramic engineer, currently doing his PhD
>(wanker), but who also has a good grasp on general physical
>principles). Light is made up of particles (photons, neh?). Lasers are
>coherent light. Therefore, lasers are made up of particles. These
>particles are what the barrier stops, thus averting damage to the
>subject of the spell.

Photons are not particles. They have zero rest mass. Photons are referred
to as quantum mechanical particles, in the sense that they have a
wavefunction and obey the postulates of quantum mechanics; they can be
represented by a state vector, have a probability of measurement, and can
be represented by a linear Hermitian operator in Hilbert space.

>On the other hand, you have the TRUE Shadowrun explanation. That is
>that the barrier is magical. A physical barrier (or the armour spell)
>is designed to stop physical attacks and physical objects - which
>include lasers. The magic of the barrier, therefore, would be "smart"
>enough to "say", "Hell-ooo!!! This is a laser! It's bad! I must stop
>it!" If you get my drift.

Page 47, Magic in the Shadows, fifth paragraph, second column:

*Magic is not intelligent* Mana only does as it is told when manipulated by
Magical Skills such as Sorcery. Magical effects do not make independent
decisions.

From all indications, MiTS has rewritten magic to make it compatible with
physics, when possible. I, for one, am pleased.

>Doc'

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 21
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:26:11 -0700 (PDT)
> Doc Rand writes:
>
> No. Sorry.
>
> A barrier spell stops physical objects, with the exception of gases
AND LIGHT. The benefit of it stopping attacks is a side-effect of the
latter. For example: A barrier would stop a bullet. It would stop a
grenade. It would not stop the blast effect of a grenade (though it
would stop shrapnel). It would stop an acidic liquid, but not an acidic
gas.
> robert.watkins@******.com

Errr, no, sorry, back atcha, Robert. :)

As I said (read it carefully :) ), IN MY INTERPRETATION, the intention
of a barrier spell is two-fold: to stop physical objects and to stop
non-magical attacks. You disagree with that. Fine. If you ever play in
my games, though, that's how it works. If I ever play in your games, it
works how you say it does.

All right, from a strict interpretation of the spell description,
you're right.

So what?

I don't want mages in my games to have to be sustaining two different
spells to protect themselves from bullets and lasers - unless they
choose to specialise.

Yes, when I first said that a barrier spell stops lasers, I was,
canonically, wrong. I stand corrected. That does not invalidate my own
interpretation within the bounds of my own games, which is what, as I
made clear, I've subsequently been talking about.

*Doc' looks exasperated. "Okay?"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 22
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:31:07 -0700 (PDT)
> > *Doc' apologises, because he thinks he answered a different
question to the one being asked. He is a little annoyed about getting
flamed for it, though.*
>
> <K sneaks up and dowses Doc with a bucket full of salt-water...it was
more available, or so they told me at the store...just in case ;) >

*Doc' licks his lips. "Mmmm, full of salty-goodness! Hang on...you did
say WATER, didn't you?"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:29:16 +1000
Doc writes:
> Yes, when I first said that a barrier spell stops lasers, I was,
> canonically, wrong. I stand corrected. That does not invalidate my own
> interpretation within the bounds of my own games, which is what, as I
> made clear, I've subsequently been talking about.

I presume you're being consistent and having the barrier stop other forms of
light?

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 24
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:44:13 -0700
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> From all indications, MiTS has rewritten magic to make it compatible with
> physics, when possible. I, for one, am pleased.

Someday we're all going to look back at this and say "Please, no more laser
threads. Not again."

--
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Message no. 25
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:48:43 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> Doc writes:
> > Yes, when I first said that a barrier spell stops lasers, I was,
> > canonically, wrong. I stand corrected. That does not invalidate my own
> > interpretation within the bounds of my own games, which is what, as I
> > made clear, I've subsequently been talking about.
>
> I presume you're being consistent and having the barrier stop other forms of
> light?

I really don't see how such consistency is necessary. If he wants Barriers
and Armor to stop lasers, let him.

Otherwise, all the mages will be running around with Laser spells ready to
blow away anyone with magical protection. What fun.

--
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Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:47:47 +1000
> > I presume you're being consistent and having the barrier stop
> other forms of
> > light?
>
> I really don't see how such consistency is necessary. If he wants Barriers
> and Armor to stop lasers, let him.

He can do what he wants. I'm not about to stand next to him with a gun and
say "Do it this way or else". I don't want to get that close to Doc. :)

OTH, inconsistency causes problems... it's so much easier to be consistent.

> Otherwise, all the mages will be running around with Laser spells ready to
> blow away anyone with magical protection. What fun.

Right up until someone designs a "Reflect coherent light" spell. Throws
laser beams back at the caster.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 27
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
> Doc writes:
> > Yes, when I first said that a barrier spell stops lasers, I was,
canonically, wrong. I stand corrected. That does not invalidate my own
interpretation within the bounds of my own games, which is what, as I
made clear, I've subsequently been talking about.
>
> I presume you're being consistent and having the barrier stop other
forms of light?
> robert.watkins@******.com

*Doc' jerks his thumb into the air. "Look up the top."*

No, I'm not. I AM being consistent according to my interpretation of
the spell, however. Remember, I said that MY barrier spell is a
two-fold thing - it stops physical objects (which I have to admit, does
not include light - thanks, Adam :) ) and it stops non-magical attacks.
A laser is a non-magical attack, thus it is effected by a barrier
spell. Solar radiation, while damaging in the long term, is not
considered an attack, so is not stopped. Same with other light.

Yes, this means that, as I see it, the spell would protect you from a
nuclear blast.

*snort*

Of course, the fact that the nuclear blast at close range would have a
damage code of 100DD or the like (DD is a house damage code whereby you
suffer two (or more) deadly wounds and you only get one test to resist
all of them - this code is saved for things like a ton or two of
plastique blowing up in your face, a close range nuclear blast or
falling into the sun :) ), means that you'd have to have
a...errr...rather powerful barrier spell to stand a chance.

*Doc' grins evilly. "Does it scare you that I apparently subject my
players to hideously nasty damage often enough to have developed a
house rule to cover the situation?"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 28
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:56:34 EDT
In a message dated 5/17/99 8:48:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
robert.watkins@******.com writes:

<< Right up until someone designs a "Reflect coherent light" spell. Throws
laser beams back at the caster. >>

No. Not unless the spell/magic is "intelligent" and can calculate the
_exact_ angle of incidence needed to redirect the beam back upon the caster.
Otherwise, the beam would be redirected RANDOMLY.

;-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 29
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:01:48 EDT
In a message dated 5/17/99 8:56:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

<< Of course, the fact that the nuclear blast at close range would have a
damage code of 100DD or the like (DD is a house damage code whereby you
suffer two (or more) deadly wounds and you only get one test to resist
all of them - this code is saved for things like a ton or two of
plastique blowing up in your face, a close range nuclear blast or
falling into the sun :) ), means that you'd have to have
a...errr...rather powerful barrier spell to stand a chance. >>

Well ... that'd be on the scale, roughly, of the barrier the Bug nest in
Chicago put up, just before the Ares / K-E nuke went off, wouldn't you say?
<EG>

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 30
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:16:12 -0700 (PDT)
> > I presume you're being consistent and having the barrier stop other
forms of light?
>
> I really don't see how such consistency is necessary. If he wants
Barriers and Armor to stop lasers, let him.
>
> Otherwise, all the mages will be running around with Laser spells
ready to blow away anyone with magical protection. What fun.
> Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com |

Although, as I pointed out, I am being consistent according to my own
definition of the spell, that's a scary thought, Deird'Re - especially
considering that it can happen (or could happen in SRII - I haven't
read the spells in MitS yet).

What was it, the Light Ray spell? I think that's what it was called.
Elemental effect of, in essence, a laser beam. That'd go straight
through a barrier spell.

Of course, it's easy enough just to toss off a combat spell to get the
same effect.

*Doc' drops a stink spell on the mage with the barrier. "Eat that, chummer!"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 31
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
> He can do what he wants. I'm not about to stand next to him with a
gun and say "Do it this way or else". I don't want to get that close to
Doc. :)
> robert.watkins@******.com

*Doc' plants a big, sloppy, wet one on Robert's cheek. "I love you too,
sweety."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 32
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:21:16 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> He can do what he wants. I'm not about to stand next to him with a gun and
> say "Do it this way or else". I don't want to get that close to Doc. :)
> OTH, inconsistency causes problems... it's so much easier to be consistent.

I suppose it's a matter of what's consistent to whom, then. :-)

> > Otherwise, all the mages will be running around with Laser spells ready to
> > blow away anyone with magical protection. What fun.
>
> Right up until someone designs a "Reflect coherent light" spell. Throws
> laser beams back at the caster.

But that gives one elemental effect more potency than the others, you see.

If there's a concern about balance, I could see going his way.

Me, I dunno. I'll probably go with what the book seems to say. I don't mind
some elemental effects working better against some defenses than others.

But I still think we will all revile this thread in a few months. :-)

> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

--
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Message no. 33
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:17:43 +1000
> No, I'm not. I AM being consistent according to my interpretation of
> the spell, however. Remember, I said that MY barrier spell is a
> two-fold thing - it stops physical objects (which I have to admit, does
> not include light - thanks, Adam :) ) and it stops non-magical attacks.
> A laser is a non-magical attack, thus it is effected by a barrier
> spell. Solar radiation, while damaging in the long term, is not
> considered an attack, so is not stopped. Same with other light.
>
> Yes, this means that, as I see it, the spell would protect you from a
> nuclear blast.

Q: How do you define attack? Does there have to be volition behind the
action? Would this spell protect the user from, say, the negative affects of
walking underneath an industrial laser used for drilling holes in slabs of
iron? Or (going with the nuclear blast analogy) the radiation put out by an
exploding power station (where the explosion is due to an industrial
accident, not sabotage)

Hmm... how about this as a description of what happens:

The barrier permits the passage of "light" (defined as electromagnetic
energy), below a certain threshold level (so many photons/square meter,
say). When the light is in excess of that level, the barrier attempts to
absorb some of the energy, thus providing effective "armour" against lasers,
and other light/radiation-based attacks.

Note that this spell description would have the added benefit of
glare-protection, but that's probably going to be negated by the crackling
wall of light the barrier puts up. The barrier would also reduce the effects
of radio signals outbound, but by how much I don't know.

Oh well, I've had enough of playing Devil's Advocate about something that
doesn't really interest me anyway. :) So, 'nuff said on my part.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 34
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:33:16 +1000
Deird'Re writes:
> But that gives one elemental effect more potency than the others, you see.

Not really... There are other elemental affects that would go through a
standard barrier.

Just off the top of my head: Blast would, Electricity would, an elemental
affect of Sound could readily go through. A spell could have a Gas elemental
effect (much like Stink), and that goes straight through as well.

The thing to remember is that Barrier spells aren't designed to stop SPELLS.
They stop physical objects, and subcategories thereof. They aren't designed
to be perfect protection, either.

Got a mage with a barrier up? Drop a tear-gas canister next to them. Or
shoot them with a laser, if you've got one handy (not likely). Or get your
combat mage to zap them with a Mana Bolt. Or just pound on them with
auto-fire until the barrier weakens and breaks down.

> If there's a concern about balance, I could see going his way.

I'd go against it for Balance reasons, actually.

Oops, I wasn't going to comment anymore. Silly me.

--
sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 35
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
> Q: How do you define attack? Does there have to be volition behind
the action? Would this spell protect the user from, say, the negative
affects of walking underneath an industrial laser used for drilling
holes in slabs of iron? Or (going with the nuclear blast analogy) the
radiation put out by an exploding power station (where the explosion is
due to an industrial accident, not sabotage)

I was hoping to avoid that one. :) I'd say an attack is defined as
something that has an immediately deleterious effect beyond a certain
incidental level. In other words, if, as soon as the attack 'hits' you,
you take damage (a bullet, a runaway steamroller, a nuclear bomb, that
industrial laser), then it's defined as an attack and the barrier
starts working. Normal sunlight, while causing damage to your skin,
doesn't pass that 'incidental level', so is not stopped. (The
incidental level is the point at which you would, within the game
mechanics, take damage - so if a non-magical attack has a damage code,
the barrier can stop it.)

On the other hand, if a vampire designed his own barrier spell, then
sunlight could conceivably be assumed to fall under the definition of
an attack - so, yes, a vampire mage could make his own barrier spell
and wander around in broad daylight while taking no damage. Of course,
the fact that he'd be in the middle of a moving, black sphere would
have its own problems. :)

> Hmm... how about this as a description of what happens:
>
> The barrier permits the passage of "light" (defined as
electromagnetic energy), below a certain threshold level (so many
photons/square meter, say). When the light is in excess of that level,
the barrier attempts to absorb some of the energy, thus providing
effective "armour" against lasers, and other light/radiation-based
attacks.

Looking at that, it's rather similar to what I've said above, although
I've simplified the matter (if it has a damage code, it can be
blocked).

> Note that this spell description would have the added benefit of
glare-protection, but that's probably going to be negated by the
crackling wall of light the barrier puts up. The barrier would also
reduce the effects of radio signals outbound, but by how much I don't
know.
> robert.watkins@******.com

And my definition doesn't have this benefit/problem. I think I'll stick
with it.

*Doc' wonders if his barrier spell will stop him injuring himself on
his own bloody nails.*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 36
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:14:32 CST
>Photons are not particles. They have zero rest mass. Photons are referred
>to as quantum mechanical particles, in the sense that they have a
>wavefunction and obey the postulates of quantum mechanics; they can be
>represented by a state vector, have a probability of measurement, and can
>be represented by a linear Hermitian operator in Hilbert space.

Actually, photons ARE particles. All physical matter undergoes wave
motion. However, the De Broglie wavelength is inversly proportional to the
mass of an object. For example, I am 240 lbs, therefore, my wave motion is
negligible, and therefore unnoticable (especially when the Simpsons are
on!). A photon has a much smaller mass (the exact number escapes me - my
quantum mechanics text is in another room) therefore, its wavelength is
noticeable.

However, if the barrier lets light through, then a laser would go through
as well.



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Message no. 37
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:02:49 -0500
On Tue, 18 May 1999 10:29:16 +1000 "Robert Watkins"
<robert.watkins@******.com> writes:
>Doc writes:
>> Yes, when I first said that a barrier spell stops lasers, I was,
>> canonically, wrong. I stand corrected. That does not invalidate my own
>> interpretation within the bounds of my own games, which is what, as I
>> made clear, I've subsequently been talking about.

>I presume you're being consistent and having the barrier stop other
forms of
>light?

Why does he need to?
Some reasons why a barrier spell would stop lasers but not light:
1) The barrier reacts to the damaging level of energy conveyed by the
laser and reduces it as much as possible to safe levels (thus, laser
sights still work normally).
2) The laser carries a level of damaging intent (this seperate from the
firer's intent or lack thereof to harm you.) and this is what the barrier
reacts to. (in this interpretation, a barrier does not prevent crossing
the barrier, only attacking accross a barrier.

If version 2 sounds like fun, you could make two different versions of
the spell: Physical Barrier and Emotional Barrier which have the same
drain codes but work differently. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 38
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT)
> Ok, snipping the rant and all the rest, this raises an interesting
point. If a barrier stops all nonmagical attacks, as you suggest
(rightly or wrongly, I don't care), then what about blinding lights?
It stops lasers, so would it stop, say, the effects of a flash-bang
grenade, particularly the flash?

See an earlier post where I define an 'attack'. So, yes, if you were in
the actual damage radius of the flash-bang grenade, the barrier would
protect you - but only from the damage. It wouldn't stop the flare from
blinding you. If, on the other hand, you were staring at a light that
was strong enough to do immediate and permanent damage to your
eyesight, then yes, the barrier would protect you.

IMNSHO.

*Doc' thinks he's already been enough of a smartass for one day...or
one hour, at least...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 39
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:10:07 -0500
On Mon, 17 May 1999 19:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Rand Ratinac
<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
>*Doc' wonders if his barrier spell will stop him injuring himself on
>his own bloody nails.*

Nope ... you and your bloody nails (if you'd clean em, they wouldn't
still be bloody, would they?) are both inside the same barrier ... now,
if you mean ARMOR spell, then it's a valid question (and I'd say yes.).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 40
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:22:40 -0700 (PDT)
> >*Doc' wonders if his barrier spell will stop him injuring himself on
his own bloody nails.*
>
> Nope ... you and your bloody nails (if you'd clean em, they wouldn't
still be bloody, would they?) are both inside the same barrier ... now,
if you mean ARMOR spell, then it's a valid question (and I'd say yes.).
> D. Ghost

Bloody was being used as a cuss, Al. :) Although at the times I injure
myself, it's often literally true too.

What about a personal barrier? Would that work?

*Doc' ponders creating a Personal Liquid Barrier spell to stop him from
pissing on himself when he's drunk...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 41
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:30:19 +1000
> What about a personal barrier? Would that work?
>
> *Doc' ponders creating a Personal Liquid Barrier spell to stop him from
> pissing on himself when he's drunk...*

Personal barriers are restricted to being centred on the caster. Unless you
withhold dice to reduce the size, they're still <magic rating> metres in
radius.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 42
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
> > *Doc' ponders creating a Personal Liquid Barrier spell to stop him
from pissing on himself when he's drunk...*
>
> Personal barriers are restricted to being centred on the caster.
Unless you withhold dice to reduce the size, they're still <magic
rating> metres in radius.
> robert.watkins@******.com

*Doc' ponders some more..."Limited Armour (Liquid) spell?"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 43
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:48:34 +1000
> > > *Doc' ponders creating a Personal Liquid Barrier spell to stop him
> from pissing on himself when he's drunk...*
> >
> > Personal barriers are restricted to being centred on the caster.
> Unless you withhold dice to reduce the size, they're still <magic
> rating> metres in radius.
> > robert.watkins@******.com
>
> *Doc' ponders some more..."Limited Armour (Liquid) spell?"*

Just use Makeover when you wake up...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 44
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:00:08 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 17 May 1999, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > > *Doc' ponders creating a Personal Liquid Barrier spell to stop him
> from pissing on himself when he's drunk...*
> >
> > Personal barriers are restricted to being centred on the caster.
> Unless you withhold dice to reduce the size, they're still <magic
> rating> metres in radius.
> > robert.watkins@******.com

Ah, but with MitS, you can design a new, non area effect Barrier, thus
making a Barrier that just surrounded you. Making it a Personal Liquid
Barrier would even reduce the Drain to +2L, castable while drunk, most
likely...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Student |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
When someone asks you, "A penny for your thoughts,"
and you put your two cents in, what happens to the other penny?
Message no. 45
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:04:18 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/99 1:00:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
zadoc@***.neu.edu writes:

<< Ah, but with MitS, you can design a new, non area effect Barrier, thus
making a Barrier that just surrounded you. Making it a Personal Liquid
Barrier would even reduce the Drain to +2L, castable while drunk, most
likely... >>

Speaking of which, I've seen mages with "while inebriated" as a condition
Geasa to use magic at all ... <G>

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 46
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:12:04 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > *Doc' ponders creating a Personal Liquid Barrier spell to stop
him from pissing on himself when he's drunk...*
> > >
> > > Personal barriers are restricted to being centred on the caster.
Unless you withhold dice to reduce the size, they're still <magic
rating> metres in radius.
> >
> > *Doc' ponders some more..."Limited Armour (Liquid) spell?"*
>
> Just use Makeover when you wake up...
> robert.watkins@******.com

*Doc' frowns. That's no good. It's hard for a girl to take you
seriously when you proposition her and you've wet yourself.*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 47
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:11:06 +1000
Damian Sharp writes:
> Ah, but with MitS, you can design a new, non area effect Barrier, thus
> making a Barrier that just surrounded you. Making it a Personal Liquid
> Barrier would even reduce the Drain to +2L, castable while drunk, most
> likely...

Now what would be the point of that, Damian? Such a barrier would prevent
you from getting more drunk.

I suppose you could specialise it further, but that would mean you'd have to
buy more expensive drinks. Afterall, everyone knows that cheap drinks taste
like piss...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 48
From: JThor27860@***.com JThor27860@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:11:14 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/99 12:07:35 AM Central Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

<< > > > > *Doc' ponders creating a Personal Liquid Barrier spell to
stop
him from pissing on himself when he's drunk...*
> > >
> > > Personal barriers are restricted to being centred on the caster.
Unless you withhold dice to reduce the size, they're still <magic
rating> metres in radius.
> >
> > *Doc' ponders some more..."Limited Armour (Liquid) spell?"*
>
> Just use Makeover when you wake up...
> robert.watkins@******.com

*Doc' frowns. That's no good. It's hard for a girl to take you
seriously when you proposition her and you've wet yourself.*
== Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow) >>

Then don't get drunk and wet yourself, or create a personal evaporate liquid
spell and put it on a quickening/anchoring.
Message no. 49
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:16:03 +1000
> *Doc' frowns. That's no good. It's hard for a girl to take you
> seriously when you proposition her and you've wet yourself.*

I will avoid the obvious come-back here, and merely point out that if you're
that drunk, she'll only take you seriously if she's that drunk, in which
case she's not likely to notice. And, of course, there are the advantages of
dark clothing, low lighting, and "accidental" spills of drinks when she
moves her hand down there... Stick with the Makeover spell, as it will also
get rid of the halitosis.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 50
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:37:07 -0700 (PDT)
> I will avoid the obvious come-back here, and merely point out that if
you're that drunk, she'll only take you seriously if she's that drunk,
in which case she's not likely to notice. And, of course, there are the
advantages of dark clothing, low lighting, and "accidental" spills of
drinks when she moves her hand down there... Stick with the Makeover
spell, as it will also get rid of the halitosis.
> robert.watkins@******.com

All right - does that get rid of the smell in your clothes too? And
what about the hangover? Do we still have Detox in SR3? I can't
remember.

*Doc' contemplates creating a spell that will let him drink piss and
piss beer. "They will worship me and call me the Most High...or Most
Pissed...whichever..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 51
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
> Then don't get drunk and wet yourself, or create a personal evaporate
liquid spell and put it on a quickening/anchoring.

Ooookay...

That's fine, except for the obvious problems...

*Doc' dies of dehydration, because his quickened Personal Evaporate
Liquid spell vapourises anything he tries to drink...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 52
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:41:53 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Robert Watkins."
] > Ah, but with MitS, you can design a new, non area effect Barrier, thus
] > making a Barrier that just surrounded you. Making it a Personal Liquid
] > Barrier would even reduce the Drain to +2L, castable while drunk, most
] > likely...
]
] Now what would be the point of that, Damian? Such a barrier would prevent
] you from getting more drunk.

Be great for bartenders, though. "You're cut off. Literally."
Geez, you wouldn't have to worry about the rain either...a magic
raincoat...and oh wow...you could go diving, and (with an air supply)
come out of the water as dry as a joke from Jeremy Irons...the
possibilities are endless (as long as they involve water).
Message no. 53
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:29:04 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> I will avoid the obvious come-back here, and merely point out that if you're
> that drunk, she'll only take you seriously if she's that drunk, in which
> case she's not likely to notice. And, of course, there are the advantages of
> dark clothing, low lighting, and "accidental" spills of drinks when she
> moves her hand down there... Stick with the Makeover spell, as it will also
> get rid of the halitosis.

Y'all scare me.

Oh, and throw in Healthy Glow *just in case*. It helps with the hangover.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Unofficial Fading Suns mailing list
Listowner: Unofficial Trinity mailing list
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 54
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:29:51 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> All right - does that get rid of the smell in your clothes too? And
> what about the hangover? Do we still have Detox in SR3? I can't
> remember.

Fashion will take care of the clothes. Detox should handle the hangover,
but I'd let Healthy Glow ameliorate the effects.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Unofficial Fading Suns mailing list
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Message no. 55
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:34:44 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/99 1:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

<< the
possibilities are endless (as long as they involve water). >>

Uhm, no, as long as they involve LIQUIDS.

Bathe in acid? No problem, just let me turn this SPELL here on ... >fumble,
fumble<

Swim in a DMSO-LSD filled swimming pool, and NOT be tripping at FTL speeds on
the other side? Ditto on the spell ...

<G>

Coupled with a Heat Barrier, you could go swimming on a VOLCANO (ok, ok, you
need to have MONDO mojo for that, but hey ... <g>)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 56
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:37:24 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/99 2:24:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
xenya@********.com writes:

<< Fashion will take care of the clothes. Detox should handle the hangover,
but I'd let Healthy Glow ameliorate the effects. >>

No, Detox would NOT solve your hangover. A hangover is a side effect of just
THAT: your body has been detoxifying your bloodstream, and your head hurts
for wont of MORE POISON. <g>

IMO, a "Retox" spell (a.k.a. Instant Inebriation ;-) would work, set to very
low power/"damage" ... think about it: the best cure (temporarily) for a
hangover IS another drink. <g>

Hangovers, et al, are just one form of DT's.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 57
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:02:41 -0700
GMPax@***.com wrote:
>
> No, Detox would NOT solve your hangover. A hangover is a side effect of just
> THAT: your body has been detoxifying your bloodstream, and your head hurts
> for wont of MORE POISON. <g>

Right, I suspect that a spell could appropriately rebalance the body's
equilibrium.

Then again, avoiding hangovers is very simple too. :-)

> IMO, a "Retox" spell (a.k.a. Instant Inebriation ;-) would work, set to
very
> low power/"damage" ... think about it: the best cure (temporarily) for a
> hangover IS another drink. <g>

Hair of the Dog: Mana?

> Hangovers, et al, are just one form of DT's.

What does DT stand for?

--
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Message no. 58
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 03:02:58 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/99 2:57:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
xenya@********.com writes:

<< What does DT stand for? >>

DT = De-Toxification. "DT's" is the symptoms of hard-crash ugly
detosification shock ... the sorts of things lifelong heavy-drinking
alcoholics go through when they "dry out" ... the shakes, mental problems,
and so on.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 59
From: Othello's Lieutenant iago@***********.net.nz
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:46:06 +1200
At 03:02 18/05/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 5/18/99 2:57:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>xenya@********.com writes:
>
><< What does DT stand for? >>
>
>DT = De-Toxification. "DT's" is the symptoms of hard-crash ugly
>detosification shock ... the sorts of things lifelong heavy-drinking
>alcoholics go through when they "dry out" ... the shakes, mental problems,
>and so on.

Gee I always thought DT was an abbreviation for Dementia Tremens aka The
shakes

Detoxification is another thing entirely.

--
Iago
--
"Whenever some jerk has P***ed you off, remember it takes
42 muscles to create a frown, but only 4 to squeeze the
trigger of a halfway decent sniper's rifle."
Message no. 60
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:38:25 +1000
><< What does DT stand for? >>
>
>DT = De-Toxification. "DT's" is the symptoms of hard-crash ugly
>detosification shock ... the sorts of things lifelong heavy-drinking
>alcoholics go through when they "dry out" ... the shakes, mental problems,
>and so on.

Actually, it refers to 'Delirium Tremens'... same symptoms, just a
different origin of the acronym.

Lady Jestyr

It might look like I'm doing | * Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster
nothing, but at the cellular | * Hibernator Extraordinaire
level I'm really quite busy. | * All-Around Superhero(TM)

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 61
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 05:07:09 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/99 3:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
iago@***********.net.nz writes:

<< Gee I always thought DT was an abbreviation for Dementia Tremens aka The
shakes

Detoxification is another thing entirely. >>

OH, ok. Since "going through detox" always lead to "the DT's" I
figured "the
DT's" for a reference to WHERE it happens. :-)

We learn something every day, eh? (well, every OTHER day sometimes ... busy
scheduling of the 90's and all! ;-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 62
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 03:28:50 -0700
GMPax@***.com wrote:
>
> DT = De-Toxification. "DT's" is the symptoms of hard-crash ugly
> detosification shock ... the sorts of things lifelong heavy-drinking
> alcoholics go through when they "dry out" ... the shakes, mental problems,
> and so on.

Okay... I think Healthy Glow would help.

--
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Listowner: Unofficial Trinity mailing list
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Message no. 63
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:40:15 -0500
"Robert Watkins" <robert.watkins@******.com>
05/17/99 06:13 PM



<<If I want, I could design a "Anti-Barney-The-Purple-Dinosaur Barrier"
spell,
to protect me from Barney the Purple Dinosaur and representations
thereof.>>


Can I buy that formula from you!!!!
Message no. 64
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:48:16 -0700
>>Photons are not particles. They have zero rest mass. Photons are referred
>>to as quantum mechanical particles, in the sense that they have a
>>wavefunction and obey the postulates of quantum mechanics; they can be
>>represented by a state vector, have a probability of measurement, and can
>>be represented by a linear Hermitian operator in Hilbert space.
>
> Actually, photons ARE particles. All physical matter undergoes wave
>motion. However, the De Broglie wavelength is inversly proportional to the
>mass of an object. For example, I am 240 lbs, therefore, my wave motion is
>negligible, and therefore unnoticable (especially when the Simpsons are
>on!). A photon has a much smaller mass (the exact number escapes me - my
>quantum mechanics text is in another room) therefore, its wavelength is
>noticeable.

Wrong. I was very explicit in saying "quantum mechanical particles" which
means they exhibit duality, having properties of classical particles and
classical waves. [1] Your remembrance of De Broglie wavelength emphasizes
this definition.

Photons are not particles in the classical sense [2], nor in the common
sense of possessing rest mass. In the commonly accepted Copenhagen
Interpretation of Quantum mechanics, a photon is completely described by
the state vector |x>, which cannot be true for a classical particle, since
a classical particles can have simultaneous exact momenta and position. [3]



[1] Hans Ohanian, _Principles of Quantum Mechanics_, 1990, Pretice-Hall, p. 12
[2] Ibid., p. 11
[3] Ibid., p. 343

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 65
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:17:55 -0500
> >>Photons are not particles. They have zero rest mass. Photons are
> referred
> >>to as quantum mechanical particles, in the sense that they have a
> >>wavefunction and obey the postulates of quantum mechanics; they can be
> >>represented by a state vector, have a probability of measurement, and
> can
> >>be represented by a linear Hermitian operator in Hilbert space.
> >
> > Actually, photons ARE particles. All physical matter undergoes wave
> >motion. However, the De Broglie wavelength is inversly proportional to
> the
> >mass of an object. For example, I am 240 lbs, therefore, my wave motion
> is
> >negligible, and therefore unnoticable (especially when the Simpsons are
> >on!). A photon has a much smaller mass (the exact number escapes me - my
> >quantum mechanics text is in another room) therefore, its wavelength is
> >noticeable.
>
> Wrong. I was very explicit in saying "quantum mechanical particles" which
> means they exhibit duality, having properties of classical particles and
> classical waves. [1] Your remembrance of De Broglie wavelength emphasizes
> this definition.
>
> Photons are not particles in the classical sense [2], nor in the common
> sense of possessing rest mass. In the commonly accepted Copenhagen
> Interpretation of Quantum mechanics, a photon is completely described by
> the state vector |x>, which cannot be true for a classical particle, since
> a classical particles can have simultaneous exact momenta and position.
> [3]
>
>
>
> [1] Hans Ohanian, _Principles of Quantum Mechanics_, 1990, Pretice-Hall,
> p. 12
> [2] Ibid., p. 11
> [3] Ibid., p. 343
>
> --Adam
>
Okay. Stop it. I have a hard enough time remembering where my car keys are
than you people divlulgin into the makeup of the universe and how that
relates to a target number of 4. Does any of this help us better understand
the original question? Does anyone remember the original question?

Oh, but good use of footnotes.

STAR WARS STAR WARS STAR WARS STAR WARS
Message no. 66
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:35:33 -0500
> Okay. Stop it. I have a hard enough time remembering where my car keys are
> than you people divlulgin into the makeup of the universe and how that
> relates to a target number of 4. Does any of this help us better understand
> the original question? Does anyone remember the original question?

There was an original question??
Message no. 67
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:44:42 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Mark Fender."
] Okay. Stop it. I have a hard enough time remembering where my car keys are
] than you people divlulgin into the makeup of the universe and how that
] relates to a target number of 4. Does any of this help us better understand
] the original question? Does anyone remember the original question?

Yup. Lasers and barriers. I don't know where the shock hand implant
came in though...On a related note, can you put a shock-glove into a
cyber-limb? How do you protect the limb from the electricity? Just
insulation, I'd think. I think it would be fine to install, but since
the Physics majors had gotten all worked up, I thought I'd throw 'em
more scraps, and get a scientific answer.

] STAR WARS STAR WARS STAR WARS STAR WARS

Yes, yes, Star Wars. Calm down, take a deep breath, and hold it.
For a long time, preferably 'til you pass out, so I can take your
tickets, mwaahahahaha!!!

-Murder of One
Message no. 68
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:40:12 EDT
In a message dated 5/18/99 11:34:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> There was an original question??

No, but IIRC, there was an orignial answer.... it was 42.
Message no. 69
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:44:37 CST
>There was an original question??
>
>
Something about lasers and Barrier spells I believe!

Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 70
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:48:16 CST
> Yup. Lasers and barriers. I don't know where the shock hand implant
>came in though...On a related note, can you put a shock-glove into a
>cyber-limb? How do you protect the limb from the electricity? Just
>insulation, I'd think. I think it would be fine to install, but
Actually, I thought that's what a shock hand was!

since
>the Physics majors had gotten all worked up, I thought I'd throw 'em
>more scraps, and get a scientific answer.
>

Actually, I'm a chemistry major (quantum mechanics are a part of
chemistry too!) :)


Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 71
From: Logan Graves logan1@*****.intercom.net
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:37:54 -0400
In our last episode, Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> ><< What does DT stand for? >>
>
> Actually, it refers to 'Delirium Tremens'... same symptoms, just a
> different origin of the acronym.

She's right. I checked three slang dictionaries:

DTs = abbr. of Delirium Tremens (aka. "the shakes") [late 19 century+] the
shaking associated with an alcoholic who has been deprived of sufficient drink
to achieve normality.

--Fenris
______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Fenrir shamans are mean and ruthless individuals who have
a disturbing tendency to treat others like their next meal.
(>) MitS, pg 158
Message no. 72
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:38:43 +1000
>> ><< What does DT stand for? >>
>>
>> Actually, it refers to 'Delirium Tremens'... same symptoms, just a
>> different origin of the acronym.
>
> She's right. I checked three slang dictionaries:
>
>DTs = abbr. of Delirium Tremens (aka. "the shakes") [late 19 century+] the
>shaking associated with an alcoholic who has been deprived of sufficient
drink
>to achieve normality.

Of course I'm right! I'm ALWAYS right!

(Except when I'm left.)

Lady Jestyr

It might look like I'm doing | * Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster
nothing, but at the cellular | * Hibernator Extraordinaire
level I'm really quite busy. | * All-Around Superhero(TM)

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 73
From: Sean McGrath nafien@*******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:40:12 +1000
----------
> From: Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: RE: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
> Date: Wednesday, 19 May 1999 4:44
>
> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Mark Fender."
> ] Does anyone remember the original question?
>
> Yup. Lasers and barriers. I don't know where the shock hand implant
> came in though...On a related note, can you put a shock-glove into a
> cyber-limb? How do you protect the limb from the electricity? Just
> insulation, I'd think. I think it would be fine to install, but since
> the Physics majors had gotten all worked up, I thought I'd throw 'em
> more scraps, and get a scientific answer.

You surely can. Hence my original "shock hand implant" question.
The cybermod is in Cybertechnology along with lots of other wonderful
gadgets like taser and squirt gun implants.
I believe the stats are the same as a shock glove (8S Stun, 12 charges) but
I'm unsure as I've lent that book to a player dagnabit.
Message no. 74
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:49:20 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/99 12:40:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
nafien@*******.com writes:

> You surely can. Hence my original "shock hand implant" question.
> The cybermod is in Cybertechnology along with lots of other wonderful
> gadgets like taser and squirt gun implants.
> I believe the stats are the same as a shock glove (8S Stun, 12 charges) but
> I'm unsure as I've lent that book to a player dagnabit.

Just looked and its there. No additional essance cost, 1300Y, and the damage
and charges are just like you thought they were.
Message no. 75
From: Sean McGrath nafien@*******.com
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:19:12 +1000
----------
> From: Starrngr@***.com
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
> Date: Friday, 21 May 1999 17:49
>
> In a message dated 5/21/99 12:40:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> nafien@*******.com writes:
>
> > You surely can. Hence my original "shock hand implant" question.
> > The cybermod is in Cybertechnology along with lots of other wonderful
> > gadgets like taser and squirt gun implants.
> > I believe the stats are the same as a shock glove (8S Stun, 12
charges) but
> > I'm unsure as I've lent that book to a player dagnabit.
>
> Just looked and its there. No additional essance cost, 1300Y, and the
damage
> and charges are just like you thought they were.
>
Hehe ... not sure if I should be proud or disgusted with myself that I can
recall that sort of stuff off the top of my head ... the amount of space in
my brain wasted ...
Message no. 76
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Question: Shock hand implant, lasers
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:02:26 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Starrngr@***.com."
] > You surely can. Hence my original "shock hand implant" question.
] > The cybermod is in Cybertechnology along with lots of other wonderful
] > gadgets like taser and squirt gun implants.
] > I believe the stats are the same as a shock glove (8S Stun, 12
charges) but
] > I'm unsure as I've lent that book to a player dagnabit.
]
] Just looked and its there. No additional essance cost, 1300Y, and
the damage
] and charges are just like you thought they were.

Thank you both very much!

-Murder of One

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Thwap!