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From:	P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Questions: making ammo
Date:	Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:47:25 BST

Message no. 1 Paul J Adam :-
> Got it: you can tighten the groups for a well-made handload. Tweaking it
> and getting it right needs about a month of tinkering and a *lot* of
> patient range work, finding the load that groups best for your gun.
> And it won't work as well even in another example of the same weapon.

Ah, now that's something I;m going to have to remeber, I watched a
program on BBC2 a while back on the subject which implied (if not stated)
that it was _easy_ to make handloads that were more accurate than the
mass-produced factory stuff..

But if it takes a month or so to get the 'formula' right for the stuff,
and if you have to re-do it every time you re-bore your barrel (I do it
a lot, when you constantly use the same pistol, it is _nice_ to have a
different ballistic signature when the Star come round), maybe I'll
re-evaluate my rules for making the stuff...

Gary C Wrote :-
> What would you require to be purchased for a group
> to make their own ammo...
> Are there rules out there on this? Other than the raw
> materials, what would they need? What kind of skill would
> it require and what kind of time to make:
> normal rounds, explosive rounds, apds rounds, caseless, etc...
> i.e. - spend 10,000 for equipment + 5000 for each different
> kind of ammo wanted to make. Then a skill in Ammo B/R.
> TN# 4 - +2 for caseless, +4 for explosive or APDS, etc...

right, I have some suggested rules on this subject, but "I don't
have them on me right now" (bye-bye greedo), so here goes :-

You defeintely use FirearksmB+R, for which their should be an 'ammo'
concentration, and maybe a specialisation in type explosive/flechhete/etc
or class SMG/HPistol, etc.

The gear you need is a Firearms Kit for some things
Hollowpoint, cross-head, dum-dum from jacketed,
handloads, custom rounds, Teflon (maybe not even a
shop for that), buckshot, regular ball ammo.

or maybe a _shop_ for fiddly stuff, say
explosive, XX, flechette, glaser, AP, AD, and all
the other stuff I;ve added to make ammo more fun.

Panther cannon rounds, Missiles (not rockets), APDs should definitely
not be producable by the PC's, or you're gonna find that Supply/Demand
starts to suffer in your campaign.

Oh yeah, it probably takes a shop to make 'safe' Gel and stun rounds too.

Phil (Renegade

NB. in the back of 'listen up you primitive screwheads', the CP2020
GM's book, you'll find some rules for manufacturing home-grown explosives,
ala Anarchists and terminator, easily modifiable for SR purposes, I'm
working on that already.

From:	Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Questions: making ammo
Date:	Tue, 6 Jun 1995 23:40:50 GMT

Message no. 2 > Ah, now that's something I;m going to have to remeber, I watched a
> program on BBC2 a while back on the subject which implied (if not stated)
> that it was _easy_ to make handloads that were more accurate than the
> mass-produced factory stuff..

It is. Once you know the load.

For instance, I took my Glock 21 to the range: I just switched powders
from Bullseye to Red Dot, and the groups are about two-thirds of the
size. 5.7 grains of Red Dot behind a 200-grain lead semi-wadcutter on
a Federal primer = an accurate load.

Now, if I had the inclination and the time I could probably adjust it to
make it group even better: but it's a good Practical load (890 feet per second,
for a power factor of 178 - a safe Major). It's also nicely controllable in
rapid fire, which is more important for Practical Pistol than minimal
dispersion. Those trade-offs and compromises are what take the time.

Also you really need to have a whole range of powders - say, Red Dot, Blue
Dot, Unique and Bullseye (all Hercules) and Vitavuahori (sp?) N320 and N340
handy, not to mention lots of different bullets. Perhaps this pistol just
will not group well with (insert your favourite ammo type) rounds? It
does happen: a friend bought a very nice Springfield .45 at Bisley, but
was rather upset to find it appears to choke and gag if fed his favourite
semi-wadcutters. Barry says he hates round-nose bullets... so the Springfield
may have to go. Wish I had the cash to make an offer :-)

But once you have that magic formula... pull the lever and collect your
jackpot in cheap and accurate ammunition.

> But if it takes a month or so to get the 'formula' right for the stuff,
> and if you have to re-do it every time you re-bore your barrel (I do it
> a lot, when you constantly use the same pistol, it is _nice_ to have a
> different ballistic signature when the Star come round), maybe I'll
> re-evaluate my rules for making the stuff...

The "book" loads will provide an acceptable perfomance no worse than
street-level ammo (do you actually know what brand that ammo is? Most PCs
are happy if it's the right calibre). I might allow a PC as many as two dice
if they really, really worked at optimising a weapon/ammo combination, but
even over-long storage or letting the rounds freeze might take that bonus away.
Ballistics is still more art than science when you look in the corners.

> > What would you require to be purchased for a group
> > to make their own ammo...

> You defeintely use FirearksmB+R, for which their should be an 'ammo'
> concentration, and maybe a specialisation in type explosive/flechhete/etc
> or class SMG/HPistol, etc.

No: I wouldn't lay claim to any Firearms B/R skill, and every round of .45
I've fired has been a handload. Unless you're making ammo from scratch
(turning the cases, casting the bullets, et cetera) it would come under
Firearms.

If you want to let people get match grade ammo then a skill roll would be
appropriate: but I've had two stoppages in about 4,000 rounds (both where
I was too careful to avoid double-charging a case, which is bad juju, and
ended up with no charge at all) with no other problems. So for "standard"
ammo no roll is necessary.

Perhaps a Concentration of Firearms (B/R) in Ammunition? Also applies to
testing factory ammo. Make a roll against a target of 6, base time 60
days, to get an extra die because either your handloads or a particular
brand of readymade work particularly well in your Ranger SM-3. Specialise
in either Handloads or Factory Loads. A second roll, once a "good'un" is
found, with a base time of 60 days and a target of 9, to gain a second die,
for the generous GMs out there.

> The gear you need is a Firearms Kit for some things
> Hollowpoint, cross-head, dum-dum from jacketed, handloads, custom rounds,
> Teflon (maybe not even a shop for that), buckshot, regular ball ammo.

Total cost depends how much you want to make and how much time you want to
spend. You could get going for about UKP40 with a hand press and dies: or you
could spend UKP500 on a full progressive press. It's the difference between
20 and 400 rounds an hour.

Bullets, you buy. Period. You can cast your own ball and lead hollowpoint
ammo, but I'd rate those as standard: if you want to handload explosive,
APDS or flechette, buy the bullets. If the bullets are illegal, tough.
As far as I know, Glaser and similar isn't available except as complete
rounds: I do know where to get .45ACP sabot :-)

DIY hollowpoints are extremely unreliable and best avoided by professionals.
They also have a habit of jamming the weapon.

You could try and 'knife-and-fork' a Glaser from scratch. Probably about
half an hour per bullet, looking at the design. Not much use for a SMG...

> or maybe a _shop_ for fiddly stuff, say
> explosive, XX, flechette, glaser, AP, AD, and all
> the other stuff I;ve added to make ammo more fun.

Anyone who tries to make their own explosive rounds are asking for it :-)

Seriously, I've worked with explosives, and even with training I won't handle
azide compounds. You could use "explosive" bullets in the "Day of the
Jackal"
version, using a droplet of mercury (inertia makes the mercury rip out through
the nose on impact, opening the bullet right out to create a shallow but
massive wound) for about an hour per bullet. So forget using it in a
Vindicator ;-)

> Panther cannon rounds, Missiles (not rockets), APDs should definitely
> not be producable by the PC's, or you're gonna find that Supply/Demand
> starts to suffer in your campaign.

You should be able to handload Panther rounds...with solid slug (16D
damage). The accuracy bonus might be worth it (16D versus 18D...if it's in
the head who cares?) Rockets and missiles are absolutely not home-load
items.

> Oh yeah, it probably takes a shop to make 'safe' Gel and stun rounds too.

You can probably buy the bullets over-the-counter, and if you put too much
powder behind them (to give them lethal velocity) they would break up.
So these would be relatively easy to buy anyway. Why legislate against
non-lethal weapons when the bad guys have APDS? In my game, it's worth some
lenient treatment to use gel rounds or tasers or net guns in public,
because even with a mistake the victims are easier to repair. Perhaps the
difference between five years hard time and three months in a low-security
prison :-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Questions: making ammo
Date:	Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:31:56 BST

Message no. 3 A query, wadcutter is a flat head that leaves a better hole through a paper
target (much like my own pointy-head arrows, as opposed to hunting broad-
heads), but what exactly is a semi-wadcutter.

> No: I wouldn't lay claim to any Firearms B/R skill
Ah, but then you probably have enough firearms to default on the web at
+2 TNo's, and not really notice the difference ;-)

A concentration of Firearms B/R in ammo is definitely called for,
specialistaions in Ammo type (exp, flch) or class (Pistol, SMG)?

60 days and TNo of 9 to put together customised hand-loads and 6/60 days
for factory, sounds good, but how many rounds are you going to have to
expend to get that bonus? in the hundreds?

> You could use "explosive" bullets in the "Day of the Jackal"
version,
> using a droplet of mercury

Mercury rounds are pretty much the same as glazer as far as I'm concerned,
they fire droplets/pellets forwards due to momentum when the round hits.
It's all "+1 wound level on unarmoured targets" to me, mercury poisoning
from the wound is a story for antoher day though...

I guess a hand-load panther is OK if you go by the solid-slug version,
personally I like Chopper's Shaped-charge warhead version, anything that
can do tank-gun (OK, light tank-gun) damage from a man-pack ought to be
explosive rather than just impact-based.

Phil (Renegade)

From:	Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Questions: making ammo
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 1995 01:00:31 GMT

Message no. 4 > A query, wadcutter is a flat head that leaves a better hole through a paper
> target (much like my own pointy-head arrows, as opposed to hunting broad-
> heads), but what exactly is a semi-wadcutter.

Somewhere in between :-) It's a bullet with a truncated-cone profile and
a pronounced flat tip. True wadcutters don't feed well in automatics:
semi-wadcutters still punch a nice neat hole, but they also don't jam
up the works. Round-nose bullets are the only type that feed reliably in
"true military" pistols, such as the Browning High-Power and most
Colt M1911A1s, but modern pistols are designed for much more catholic diets.
And round-nose leaves very untidy holes in the paper :-)

> > No: I wouldn't lay claim to any Firearms B/R skill
> Ah, but then you probably have enough firearms to default on the web at
> +2 TNo's, and not really notice the difference ;-)

Maybe... :-) Yes, I'm a good shot. Actually, I suppose you could make a
case for ammo coming under B/R, but for assembling rounds from scratch
the TNo would only be a 2 or so: very routine. It would go up if you were
trying to make your own APDS or explosive, though.

> A concentration of Firearms B/R in ammo is definitely called for,
> specialistaions in Ammo type (exp, flch) or class (Pistol, SMG)?

By type yes, by classification no: one cartridge, another cartridge, only
the numbers you read off the charts are different. There's more difference
between revolver and autopistol ammo (roll versus taper crimp) than automatic
pistol and rifle ammo.

> 60 days and TNo of 9 to put together customised hand-loads and 6/60 days
> for factory, sounds good, but how many rounds are you going to have to
> expend to get that bonus? in the hundreds?

Definitely. Say at least fifty rounds per batch, and absolute minimum ten
batches. I'd say you'd get through about a thousand rounds for each stage of
bonus. Expensive, especially with factory loads.

> > You could use "explosive" bullets in the "Day of the Jackal"
version,
> > using a droplet of mercury
>
> Mercury rounds are pretty much the same as glazer as far as I'm concerned,
> they fire droplets/pellets forwards due to momentum when the round hits.
> It's all "+1 wound level on unarmoured targets" to me, mercury poisoning
> from the wound is a story for antoher day though...

Metallic mercury is pretty innocuous. Mercuric oxide is what gets you. Hence
the terrors of spilt mercury: a droplet of that lodged in your clothing,
releasing slow doses of mercuric oxide which is a massively cumulative
poison, can make you pretty sick.

> I guess a hand-load panther is OK if you go by the solid-slug version,
> personally I like Chopper's Shaped-charge warhead version, anything that
> can do tank-gun (OK, light tank-gun) damage from a man-pack ought to be
> explosive rather than just impact-based.

Not really: look at weapons like the Boys .55 anti-tank rifle. For rifle
velocities and calibres, kinetic-energy is the way to go to penetrate
armour. Also there are no "tank guns" defined in Shadowrun: a modern 120mm
APFSDS-DU will blow through well over a metre of steel armour as a minimum.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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