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Message no. 1
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 17:00:27 -0700
I had several questions I thought I might ask.

What would you require to be purchased for a group
to make their own ammo...
Are there rules out there on this? Other than the raw
materials, what would they need? What kind of skill would
it require and what kind of time to make:
normal rounds, explosive rounds, apds rounds, caseless, etc...
i.e. - spend 10,000 for equipment + 5000 for each different
kind of ammo wanted to make. Then a skill in Ammo B/R.
TN# 4 - +2 for caseless, +4 for explosive or APDS, etc...

Now a similiar setup with a mobile med-lab/mini hospital
maybe something that would fit into a large semi trailer
or a full size camper/bus type vehicle (if that would be possible).
Including an operating table - chem. sealed environ tools, life
support eq. etc...

Thanks
Gary C
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Message no. 2
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 13:43:47 -0500
>
> I had several questions I thought I might ask.
>
> What would you require to be purchased for a group
> to make their own ammo...
> Are there rules out there on this? Other than the raw
> materials, what would they need? What kind of skill would
> it require and what kind of time to make:
> normal rounds, explosive rounds, apds rounds, caseless, etc...
> i.e. - spend 10,000 for equipment + 5000 for each different
> kind of ammo wanted to make. Then a skill in Ammo B/R.
> TN# 4 - +2 for caseless, +4 for explosive or APDS, etc...

Making ammo should fall under Fireams B/r, one circle away from firearms. The
eqipment sounds abot 10 times to expensive- its a pretty siple job, unless
your talking about from sctatch, not just hand loads, in which case someone
will need specks ( from some design or physical science skill, or a
"blueprint") on whatever they are making.

>
> Now a similiar setup with a mobile med-lab/mini hospital
> maybe something that would fit into a large semi trailer
> or a full size camper/bus type vehicle (if that would be possible).
> Including an operating table - chem. sealed environ tools, life
> support eq. etc...
>

That sounds perfectly reasonable. Very expensive, however.

> Thanks
> Gary C
> Geek Code v2.1: GCS/O d++(--) H>++ s-:>- g+(-) !p(1) au+>++
> a-(?) w+(++/-) v(--/++) C++$ A++++/X++$/V++ P+++(-) L 3 N++(-)
> E--- K- W+ M-(--) V-(--) -po+(po) Y+ t+ 5- !j R++(+) G(') tv b-
> D++(D) B(!) e+>+++ u++(**) h f+(++) r n-(++) y?
>
Message no. 3
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 02:06:01 GMT
> I had several questions I thought I might ask.
>
> What would you require to be purchased for a group
> to make their own ammo...
> Are there rules out there on this?

None official.

> Other than the raw
> materials, what would they need? What kind of skill would
> it require and what kind of time to make:
> normal rounds, explosive rounds, apds rounds, caseless, etc...
> i.e. - spend 10,000 for equipment + 5000 for each different
> kind of ammo wanted to make. Then a skill in Ammo B/R.
> TN# 4 - +2 for caseless, +4 for explosive or APDS, etc...

Well, I have about UKP100 (US170, say) of reloading gear: with that
I can crank out 100 rounds an hour. For UKP500, I could get a progressive
press with auto-everything and make 1,000 rounds an hour. You need cases
(either fired or new), bullets, primers and powder: cost is roughly half
to quarter of factory ammo, depending on bullet type.

It's simple to do: certainly doesn't need a skill. I would put it in the
same category as field-stripping a weapon and leave it under Firearms.

> Now a similiar setup with a mobile med-lab/mini hospital
> maybe something that would fit into a large semi trailer
> or a full size camper/bus type vehicle (if that would be possible).
> Including an operating table - chem. sealed environ tools, life
> support eq. etc...

*Expensive*. And of questionable legality unless you have an M.D. ordering
it: good medical gear can kill patients very fast indeed if misapplied.
I'd say about 50,000 newyen for a van-size setup (a la ambulance). For your
semitrailer or bus? Half a million to a million.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 14:38:01 -0700
>> Gary writes:
>> What would you require to be purchased for a group
>> to make their own ammo...
>> Are there rules out there on this? Other than the raw
>> materials, what would they need? What kind of skill would
>> it require and what kind of time to make:
>> normal rounds, explosive rounds, apds rounds, caseless, etc...
>> i.e. - spend 10,000 for equipment + 5000 for each different
>> kind of ammo wanted to make. Then a skill in Ammo B/R.
>> TN# 4 - +2 for caseless, +4 for explosive or APDS, etc...

>Sebastian replies:
>Making ammo should fall under Fireams B/r, one circle away
>from firearms. The eqipment sounds abot 10 times to expensive-
>its a pretty siple job, unless your talking about from scratch,
>not just hand loads, in which case someone will need specks
>( from some design or physical science skill, or a "blueprint")
>on whatever they are making.

OK - no I wasn't thinking from scratch... But I was Thinking
you would need a machine to make the bullet heads. And I would
guess that normal bullets would be pretty cheep and easy while
explosive & apds would be a pretty expensive machine to allow
the construction... Also a reload for caseless well... this
I guess would be construction. So a simple reload machine
1000nY (covers loads for all normal rounds aprox 1000rds/hr)
5000ny + 100nY for each bullet molding type (9mm,45cal,etc...)
this is for making the actual bullet head. or as someone
suggested make them buy a shop. +???? for teflon, or caseless
or flechette, or gel, or explosive. And as also suggested
don't allow production of APDS.

Then figure 30% of cost for buying the raw materials.

*PS. Does anyone know where it states how many rounds a gun can
fire in a simple action/complex action (for normal full auto)

Your suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Gary C.
Geek Code v2.1: GCS/O d++(--) H>++ s-:>- g+(-) !p(1) au+>++
a-(?) w+(++/-) v(--/++) C++$ A++++/X++$/V++ P+++(-) L 3
N++(-) E--- K- W+ M-(--) V-(--) -po+(po) Y+ t+ 5- !j R++(+)
G(') tv b- D++(D) B(!) e+>+++ u++(**) h f+(++) r n-(++) y?
Message no. 5
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 22:58:37 BST
I've seen the gear you need to handload stuff, and what you're looking at
is a small kit with a very accurate set of scales that's probably smaller
than a car tool kit.

NB. You can't _as such_ re-load caseless, there's no case ;-) OTOH, if the
bullet survive's it journey (very unlikely), you can re-mold (whatever) it
back into some new propellant, etc.

100 rounds an hour, if you had an automated shop, yes, but you can DIY,
and the guy who sold you the gear doesn't get _quite_ so suspicious.

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:59:39 +0200
>*PS. Does anyone know where it states how many rounds a gun can
>fire in a simple action/complex action (for normal full auto)
>
>Your suggestions are appreciated.

10 for a normal FA gun, 15 for a supermachine gun


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Leave the making of mistakes to the government
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:59:41 +0200
>NB. You can't _as such_ re-load caseless, there's no case ;-) OTOH, if the
>bullet survive's it journey (very unlikely), you can re-mold (whatever) it
>back into some new propellant, etc.

Why not just buy a box of new bullets? It isn't too difficult to mold
plastic-like materials: lots of modellers do it all the time, casting
polyurethane resin in rubber molds. The techniques for making cartridges
around a bullet from a plastic-like propellant wouldn't be so _very_
different, IMHO.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Leave the making of mistakes to the government
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 8
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 11:10:39 BST
> Why not just buy a box of new bullets? It isn't too difficult to mold
> plastic-like materials: lots of modellers do it all the time, casting
> polyurethane resin in rubber molds. The techniques for making cartridges
> around a bullet from a plastic-like propellant wouldn't be so _very_
> different, IMHO.

Exactly my point, you buy a new bullet, you buy new propellant, and then
you buy a new primer/whatever... Where's the re-loading in that, you're just
manufacturing a new round from scratch ;-)

That's what I was trying to say anyway..


Re-loading is taking the old case, replacing the primer and propellant,
and fitting a new bullet to the top, or am I just being a pedant here?

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 9
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 00:18:51 GMT
> I've seen the gear you need to handload stuff, and what you're looking at
> is a small kit with a very accurate set of scales that's probably smaller
> than a car tool kit.

Not even the scales: an automatic powder measure. The whole kit is about
two feet high and packs into a foot or so diameter, clamps to any table edge
or desk. You want the powder measure, and just use the scales to calibrate
it: they are *slow* to use.

> 100 rounds an hour, if you had an automated shop, yes, but you can DIY,
> and the guy who sold you the gear doesn't get _quite_ so suspicious.

I can do 100 an hour with my kit: with perfectly legal (today) progressive
presses I know people who produce 1,000 an hour. (My gunsmith, who is also
one of the ten best IPSC shooters in the world, before you ask: enquiries to
Tim Gardner at Southern Target Masters)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:16:40 BST
Paul J aDama :-
> I can do 100 an hour with my kit: with perfectly legal (today) progressive
> presses I know people who produce 1,000 an hour. (

1000 hand-loads an hour? wow, mostly automated gear I assume?

> The whole kit is about two feet high and packs into a foot or so diameter,
a foot or so diametre was about the size of the case I saw.

The same program also feature a nice little gun cane for plinking rabbits
while walking the moors. Almost exactly the same as the gun can in
the Neo-A's G2RL.

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 11
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions: making ammo & hospital
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 01:47:39 GMT
> Paul J aDama :-
> > I can do 100 an hour with my kit: with perfectly legal (today) progressive
> > presses I know people who produce 1,000 an hour. (
>
> 1000 hand-loads an hour? wow, mostly automated gear I assume?

No: just a mechanical press. The difference is my cheap turret press
needs three lever pulls and three manual "placings" (case, primer and bullet)
per round. A full progressive, once set up, produces one round per pull
of the press lever. Primer feed, bullet placement, and even case supply
are "automated" in that they are basic mechanical operations. The 1,000
does depend on no malfunctions :-) My gunsmith advises beginners to start
with the Lee turret press and work up later if they really need more capacity.

A Lyman progressive running flat-out is a real sight to see: the sheer quantity
of raw material consumed, and the speed the tray of finished rounds fills,
is impressive.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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