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Message no. 1
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 13:30:12 BST
1. Do you guy's see the penalty to healing spell TNo's due to Bioware
as a modification of the TNo, or a penalty; ie. can you centre
vs it.

Personally I say, it's the base TNo, I just wanna take a survey.


2. Grenades suddenly became more lethal in my game, when someone
mention you can stage them up, but what about grenades with a
timer? Do you have the successes still count, even though the
target is now 10 metres away and still running?
What about multiple targets in the burst?

Messy huh? Anyone got any _simple_ solutions.


Phil (runs-with-the-pack)

There was another important one, but I can't for the life of me
remember what it was. Oh well, back to the game to get shouted
at for not asking....
Message no. 2
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 16:08:54 +0200
> 1. Do you guy's see the penalty to healing spell TNo's due to Bioware
> as a modification of the TNo, or a penalty; ie. can you centre
> vs it.

I'll get back to ya, I wana look it up.

> 2. Grenades suddenly became more lethal in my game, when someone
> mention you can stage them up, but what about grenades with a
> timer? Do you have the successes still count, even though the
> target is now 10 metres away and still running?
> What about multiple targets in the burst?
>
> Messy huh? Anyone got any _simple_ solutions.

You can stage up granades ???? I thought the extra successes are just for
the "positioning" test....

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:05:49 +0930
P Ward wrote:
>
> 1. Do you guy's see the penalty to healing spell TNo's due to Bioware
> as a modification of the TNo, or a penalty; ie. can you centre
> vs it.
> Personally I say, it's the base TNo, I just wanna take a survey.

Yah right, it's the base TNo. The idea is that the healing spells aren't
really suited towards bioware. 'Course, if you really had this occuring a
lot, you could design a spell that took the TNs into account, with a
slightly higher drain.

> 2. Grenades suddenly became more lethal in my game, when someone
> mention you can stage them up, but what about grenades with a
> timer? Do you have the successes still count, even though the
> target is now 10 metres away and still running?
> What about multiple targets in the burst?
>
> Messy huh? Anyone got any _simple_ solutions.

Timed grenade rules are given in Fields of Fire, I think.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:15:34 +0200
>1. Do you guy's see the penalty to healing spell TNo's due to Bioware
> as a modification of the TNo, or a penalty; ie. can you centre
> vs it.

I use it as a TN modification, so no centering against it. Of course with a
Centering skill of 1, the character's not bound to reduce many penalties :)

>2. Grenades suddenly became more lethal in my game, when someone
> mention you can stage them up, but what about grenades with a
> timer?

I didn't know you could stage grenade blasts...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Gotta get away from me
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 5
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:24:49 -0400
> > 2. Grenades suddenly became more lethal in my game, when someone
> > mention you can stage them up, but what about grenades with a
> > timer? Do you have the successes still count, even though the
> > target is now 10 metres away and still running?
> > What about multiple targets in the burst?
> >
> > Messy huh? Anyone got any _simple_ solutions.
>
> You can stage up granades ???? I thought the extra successes are just for
> the "positioning" test....

It is a little noticed portion of the grenade rules. Technicaly grenades
are treated as kinda strange firearms. Your success test is used both for
accuracy purposes to reduce scatter and for kicking the damage up (not
that you have to go far...). One possibility tohelp this is to make the
player splitup his successes. I believe the way it works now the successes
gained apply toward both damage and scatter. If you make the player apply
each success to one or the other it could help...except when the guy is so
good that it won't matter...

______________________________________________________________________________
Blair A. Monroe | bmonroe@******.fsu.edu | GLS/TW GC2.1
| blairm@******.com | d? H>H+ s:+ g+ p? au a24 w+ !v(-)
-------------------------------------------| C++ U--- P? !L !3 E---- N++ K-
"A good GM never leaves home | !W(--) M++ !V -po+ Y+ t+ 5+++
without his dice." | j R++ G('''') tv+ b+++ !D B---
-Anonymous | e++ u++ h+(*) f r--@ n-(----) y?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 20:14:07 -0400
On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> You can stage up granades ???? I thought the extra successes are just for
> the "positioning" test....

Well, they'd be kinda pointless if you couldn't. To make
grenades as lethal as they should be, I allow the successes to cut down
on scatter *and* stage up the damage. As a result, grenades (and
anti-personnel mines) are both feared and loathed. Just the way they
should be.

Marc
Message no. 7
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:27:32 BST
Wow, this I wierd, I only noticed that grenade successes actually can be
used for both damage and scatter after someone on the list mentioned it,
but there it was right in the combat rules.

Stagiing grenade blasts makes them _much_ more nasty as room clearnace
weapons, in fact what with the overdamage rules, a Grenade with a little
bit of over-pressure can chew anyone up to instant small pieces.


My problem is what happens when a timed grenade lands, and everyone runs
away, but still gets caught in the burst ? Surely the changing position
of a target should invalidate those successes?

Marc said :,
> I allow the successes to cut down on scatter *and* stage up the damage.
> As a result, grenades (and anti-personnel mines) are both feared and
> loathed. Just the way they should be.

What successes do you use to stage up mines? the DEmolitions check you
emplaced them with? Do you keep an eye on the roll for each Mine, or
roll it at them time, based on the operator's Demolitions/something else?

On the original dice roll, and apply a +2 TNo penalty to any target that
runs for it, or alter the TNo based on their new cover, if they're still
in the burst, they get hit, but not _quite_ sdo badly as if the grenade
had gone off immediately.


BTW I Think the grenade staging rules apply for missiles and things too,
making them even morelethal against vehicles.


Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
with help from Twilight, the runner who used missiles so often, his arm
locked in place!
Message no. 8
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:33:08 +0200
> > You can stage up granades ???? I thought the extra successes are just for
> > the "positioning" test....
>
> Well, they'd be kinda pointless if you couldn't. To make
> grenades as lethal as they should be, I allow the successes to cut down
> on scatter *and* stage up the damage. As a result, grenades (and
> anti-personnel mines) are both feared and loathed. Just the way they
> should be.

This makes sence, as a 10S is definitely far too wimpy to impress
a runner. But I dont think that the official rules allow the staging
of damage for grenades - I mean what can you do to make a grenade more
effective other than get it closer to its target ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 9
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:46:57 BST
Staging of grenades IS in the rules, right next to the bit with missile
launchers in the combat section, I don't have it on me, so I can't
quote page numbers.

Use IPE grenades, a 15S (direct hit) on impact is a loot more scary.
Only use regular greandes when you don't want to be hit on your own
burst.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 10
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:33:03 -0400
On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> This makes sence, as a 10S is definitely far too wimpy to impress
> a runner. But I dont think that the official rules allow the staging
> of damage for grenades - I mean what can you do to make a grenade more
> effective other than get it closer to its target ?

Put it in the target's lap?

Marc
Message no. 11
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:17:52 -0400
> Staging of grenades IS in the rules, right next to the bit with missile
> launchers in the combat section, I don't have it on me, so I can't
> quote page numbers.
>
> Use IPE grenades, a 15S (direct hit) on impact is a loot more scary.
> Only use regular greandes when you don't want to be hit on your own
> burst.

And then get the Flechette versions.... I believe that will be 15D(f).
And that is some pain. Even WITH double impact.

Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 12
From: U-Gene <C14101@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:47:20 EDT
P Ward writes:
>Stagiing grenade blasts makes them _much_ more nasty as room clearence
>weapons, in fact what with the overdamage rules, a grenade with a little
>bit of over-pressure can chew anyone up to instant small pieces.

Yep, sure can. My group affectionatly calls this the Chunky Salsa Effect :)

>My problem is when a timed grenade lands, and everyone runs away,
>but still gets caught in the burst? Surely the changing position of
>a target should invalidate those successes?

I would say the successes stand. Perhaps with a good throw the thrower put
the victem in a bad spot to get cover.

>What successes do you use to stage up mines?
<snip some options>

I would say make the demolitions role when someone steps on the mine. This
makes it easier to keep track of. (thus something like a "Rating 5 mine
field)

Billy(P. Adept gunslinger): "I'll only fight the dragon if you bring
the Panther Cannon."
Kernal(S. Sam): "Why's that?"
Billy: "The Dragon will eat you first."
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:42:40 +0200
>My problem is what happens when a timed grenade lands, and everyone runs
>away, but still gets caught in the burst ? Surely the changing position
>of a target should invalidate those successes?

I'd never noticed it either, but I think I'd handle it like this: only stage
it up if the grenade is on "Impact" and then only for the target that gets
hit _directly_ by the grenade. If it blows up under his/her feet, use the
base damage without staging it, but if someone fires a grenade launcher at
someone else's stomach area stage it up (hey, I did that already...) So if
people run away they simply only get the base damage from the blast.
Or you could of course say that the successes only stage the damage if there
are any successes left after reducing the scatter. With this I mean that if
you throw a standard grenade and its scatters for 4 meters, and you get 4
successes, the first 2 reduce the scatter to 0 (2 meters per success), and
the remaining 2 are used to stage up the damage.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Be yourself no matter what they say
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 14
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:29:16 BST
U-Gene spake thusly :-
> I would say make the demolitions role when someone steps on the mine. This
> makes it easier to keep track of. (thus something like a "Rating 5 mine
> field).

OK, that's great, I think I'll do that, cuts down on book-keeping and other
such drek. (If I wrote down my adventures instead of making most of it up
as I go along, I could have made a fortune seeling them to people by now).


Just out of interest, Chunky Salsa is in the SR-II book, but do you know who
coined the term, the military, or what?


Phil (Runs With The Pack)
Message no. 15
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:49:01 BST
> I'd never noticed it either, but I think I'd handle it like this: only stage
> it up if the grenade is on "Impact" and then only for the target that gets
> hit _directly_ by the grenade. If it blows up under his/her feet, use the
> base damage without staging it, but if someone fires a grenade launcher at
> someone else's stomach area stage it up (hey, I did that already...)

Yewah, that's what I originally did bfore someone apprised me of the grenade
staging rules. I ruled a direct hit was a deadly.

But now I use the staging, for all targets (Though I'll probably implement a
+2 "Second-Target" Tno Penalty (for staging the damage only, not for scatter),
for any target that is not the intended one, all, Grenades kill room fulls of
people at a time, and they are supposed to be unpleasant.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 16
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:10:05 BST
> And then get the Flechette versions.... I believe that will be 15D(f).
> And that is some pain. Even WITH double impact.

Arghh, someone who uses flechette's, drekky little things.

Those damn Anti-personnel grenades only count as D damage against an
unarmoured target, they are flechettes after all... Unless of course you
rule that they count as a D if _any_ of the target is unarmoured (Hey now,
there's an idea, they won't lagh at AP again), but that would also be the
case with regular flechete/bucky rounds?

Big burst grenades in a small smapce is definitely the way to go, an IPE
grenade will certainly be washed back by an exterior wall, and turn your
target to hamburger.


Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack).
Message no. 17
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:32:56 +1000
Gurth writes:

> > 1. Do you guy's see the penalty to healing spell TNo's due to Bioware
> > as a modification of the TNo, or a penalty; ie. can you centre
> > vs it.
>
> I use it as a TN modification, so no centering against it. Of course with a
> Centering skill of 1, the character's not bound to reduce many penalties :)

I'd say that you couldn't use centering against it, because of the bit whuch
goes: "No way around this porbelm exists at the current time, though
researchers are diligently searching for a solution." And S-Tech was
produced after the Grimything, so the author would have teken the Grimything
(and hence centering) into account.

---------------------
Jani Fikouras writes:

> This makes sence, as a 10S is definitely far too wimpy to impress
> a runner. But I dont think that the official rules allow the staging
> of damage for grenades - I mean what can you do to make a grenade more
> effective other than get it closer to its target ?

Well, while the official rules say you can stage grenades (and
missles/rockets/mortars etc), I cannot see just how it is justified myself.
The staging represents superior aiming/placement/etc of the shot by the
firer. How can you do this with an area effect, indirect fire weapon? It
makes no sense to me. But if you don't use it (as I don't), then you need to
adjust the grenade damage codes to reflect their true destructive ability. I
suggest merely changing the damage to Deadly is an effective solution.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 18
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:59:50 +0200
> > This makes sence, as a 10S is definitely far too wimpy to impress
> > a runner. But I dont think that the official rules allow the staging
> > of damage for grenades - I mean what can you do to make a grenade more
> > effective other than get it closer to its target ?
>
> Well, while the official rules say you can stage grenades (and
> missles/rockets/mortars etc), I cannot see just how it is justified myself.
> The staging represents superior aiming/placement/etc of the shot by the
> firer. How can you do this with an area effect, indirect fire weapon? It
> makes no sense to me. But if you don't use it (as I don't), then you need to
> adjust the grenade damage codes to reflect their true destructive ability. I
> suggest merely changing the damage to Deadly is an effective solution.

Sounds cool, I'll try it next time *evil GM grin*

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 19
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 20:36:29 +1000
P Ward writes:

> Those damn Anti-personnel grenades only count as D damage against an
> unarmoured target, they are flechettes after all... Unless of course you
> rule that they count as a D if _any_ of the target is unarmoured (Hey now,
> there's an idea, they won't lagh at AP again), but that would also be the
> case with regular flechete/bucky rounds?

No, you wouldn't do that. Remember SR armour is a "probability" thing, so if
they have armour, then they'd get the bonus. Hang on, armour isn't the
determining factor, all an armoured person gets over an unarmoured person is
the benefit of the Power level reduction (Ballistic, or 2xImpact, whichever
is better). It's dermal armour which reduces the damage code increase
resulting from flechette rounds (which means trolls never have to worry
about the +1 Damage Catagory for flechette rounds, they take normal damage,
and have the added bonus that if they're wearing armour, they'll get a
superior rating [probably]).

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 20
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Questions - my own, not anyone elses
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:43:58 BST
> It's dermal armour which reduces the damage code increase resulting from
> flechette rounds

I thought that Buckshot/Packet Flechette's only increased the damage level
against _Unarmoured_ targets, and that Dermal armour _also_ gave the added
benefit that you're immune to the damage increasing powers of Flech/Buck.
the only real use for buckhost is reducing the TNo to @'s and having more
dice than the other guy does. Then you can chew him to pieces.

Mind as you are the Guru (speech, speech!) I shall go home and check up
the rules in the combat section to see it is _any_ target. If it isn't
maybe I'll change it anyway, I like the idea of flechette's/AP..

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
and Snipers-With-Flechettes)

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